followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 41-44 : Dr. Barbara Gardner Part I

Episode Date: April 16, 2021

Do you know how many revelations (now Sections of the Doctrine and Covenants) were revealed in Ohio? (HINT: IT is more than 64). Join John and Hank with Dr. Barbara Gardner Gardner as we learn along with the early Saints how the Lord was planning to build His Kingdom on the Earth by teaching His Saints to be teachers, priests, and priestesses that  teach with power and His Spirit, as well as preparing them for upcoming trials. Dr. Gardner is one of our most engaging and requested guests and with these episodes, you will see why!Shownotes: www.followhim.coYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John, by the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. My friends, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am here with my illustrious co-host, John, by the way. Welcome, John. Always excited to hear which adjective I am today. Yes. Now I have to look it up. Yeah. Hey, we just want to remind everyone that you can rate and review our podcast. We would love it if you would do that. And you can follow us on social media. Find us on Instagram and Facebook. John, we have the incredible opportunity each week to meet with a great mind in the church, and we have that opportunity again this week. Tell us who's here with us.

Oh, we are here today with Barbara Morgan Gardner. Barbara thoroughly enjoys teaching religion at BYU. She's teaching the Doctrine and Covenants, the Eternal Family, and the Teachings of the Living Prophets. Her research interests focus primarily on women in religious leadership, international education, most specifically Latin America, and religious pedagogy. That's another word, Hank, maybe you could define for us, pedagogy. I think it's about bicycling, I think. She's the author of the book, The Priesthood Power of Women in the Temple, Church, and Family. Barbara received her PhD in instructional psychology. Her master's degree is in educational leadership and foundations with an emphasis on international education development.

She completed postdoctoral work at Harvard University. She served as Institute Director in Boston, which included her assignment as, I love this, the chaplain at both Harvard and MIT. She continues to serve as the chaplain at large in higher education for the LDS Church. She also serves on the BYU Interfaith Outreach Council. Before teaching at BYU, she worked as a seminary and institute teacher, as well as a researcher for the church educational system. She was born and raised in Salem, Oregon, served a Spanish-speaking mission in the Los Angeles Temple Visitor Center, and resides in Highland, Utah. Barbara is married to Dustin Gardner, where they

are the parents of two children. She enjoys her wonderful family, learning, teaching, traveling, people, the great outdoors, and life. And I was excited to meet her, Hank, because her chapter, look at the bookmarks. For those of you watching in video, look at the bookmarks in this, of Women's Conference in 2017. Her talk called, Why You Stay is so good. And so I've marked it all up. And so I was excited to meet her. I wanted to tell her that is a great talk. I've read it again and again. And I'm going to, with your permission, photocopy it and give it to my students. Feel free. It's meant for them. Hey, Barb, welcome to Follow Him. Thank you. It's nice to be here and following him with you.

I've known Barb for quite a long time. It feels like at least Barb probably, I don't know, 15, 16 years maybe. Back when you were a seminary teacher, I was a brand new teacher. I think you were a pretty brand new teacher. And they always used Barb as the example. They always said, this is what we want. And they'd chose videos. This is the one woman for women.

That's true. That's true. That's reality. Not really. I wasn't the only woman, but in that area, I probably, in the school I was. You are making frequent trips to South America because I will text you occasionally and say, hey, Barb, can you do this? Or can you do this?

And you'll say, I would love to, but I'm going to Mexico City this weekend. How often do you fly to South America? With COVID, I don't. Okay, before the... Previous to COVID, two to five times a year, depending on the situation. South America for different conferences for students, members of the church, they have young adult conferences down there that I'm a part of helping with that and then doing research down in Mexico and hopefully helping out with the needs of the saints in that part of the hemisphere.

Wonderful, wonderful members of the church there. Barb, you do just so much good. As John was reading your bio, I thought, how can this woman only be, how can she be this young? She's done all this. It reminds me of Joseph Smith. So much already, you know, so much done, so much done in such a young age. That's hilarious. Thanks. Thanks to both of you. Right back at you. Appreciate the love. We are, we're very excited to have you. So let's, let's jump into the come follow me lesson for this week. It's sections 41 through 44. Let's start with 41 and 42. These, I think Barb, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think these are the first

sections given in Ohio. Can you give us a little background here? What brought Joseph Smith and the church to Ohio? And what have these first few weeks been like? I love that they got to Ohio. In section 38, it's one of my, I just, I get so giddy about these sections because I love anything to do with the temple. And in these sections, we see the Lord previous to this telling the saints, section 36, I get so giddy about these sections because I love anything to do with the temple. And in these sections, we see the Lord previous to this telling the saints, section 36, I'm

going to be building my temple. And then you get section 38 and he basically explains, I mean, not very often in our life does the Lord actually say, I'm going to tell you why I'm sending you to the Ohio. But he does. He tells them why. You're going to the Ohio so that you can be endowed with power. And so I can give to you my law, which to me is just temple, temple, temple, temple, and it's power and authority. And it's, it's exaltation, eternal life, salvation of souls. It's the plan of salvation,

all coming to a forefront. So not only has the Lord told them that now they're saying, okay, we're coming. And it feels like, I mean, these saints have given up so much already and trying to get themselves to Ohio and translating everything else that's going on. Now they have arrived. You know, Emma was pregnant third trimester with twins. No idea how she was handling that. That would be extremely difficult. The saints had already given up, as I said, the willingness to give up land, money, property, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. They are now there and a lot is going to be expected of them. I'm confident more than they realize. Yeah. I wonder if those, those new converts

in Ohio had any idea that as soon, you know, as they get baptized, they're going to become the headquarters of the church. Joseph Smith's in New York, the beginnings of the church are in New York. All of a sudden here comes Parley Pratt, a member of their congregation, back through, baptizes, what, 100 and something of them. What did Susan tell us last week, John? Baptized, I think, 120 or something. Yeah, it's like you said, practically doubled the membership of the church. And then all of a sudden, hey, guess what?

You're not only the new members of the church, you now are the headquarters of the church because Joseph Smith is coming to you. I almost wonder how many people we know that aren't baptized in Ohio. I mean, at these early, I mean, obviously we're not talking about the Whitmers and Oliver Cowdery, but these major names are going to start coming forth. John Murdoch. I mean, we're going to, major leaders of the church are going to be baptized here. This is a substantial membership of the church right here. It feels to me that this group of Ohio converts have been prepared for this moment. With Sidney's teaching before as a Campbellite, was he a Baptist minister? As all this is coming, it just feels like this group is prepared and here comes, all you got to do is add the missing

ingredient, which is Joseph Smith and the members from New York and things are going to work out well. So they move in the middle of winter. I can't imagine that's a great trip. Especially from New York to Ohio. Yeah. From New York to Ohio in the middle of winter. I think Joseph Smith travels by sleigh. I think it's important to understand that these members of the church were trying to find truth. That when the missionaries, as you were talking about Parley P. Pratt, when these missionaries came there, they were searching for truth. They were trying to understand God's will for them. These were people that were already in the process of sacrificing. Many of them have already considered themselves a family. They were living, not the law of consecration,

but they were sharing a lot of things already together as well, as well as those who were coming from New York. So we do have a group of people that seemingly have a humble heart. Like you said, they're prepared to have the gospel, but they're also prepared to be selfless. They're prepared to change their ways. They're prepared to involve other people. We're going to have major struggles with that as well. Some of it is a little bit too fanatic and we're gonna find some major spiritualism that's going on that is not necessarily in line with the way God would have his church be,

but it seems that their motivation and their intention was to do the will of God. And God's going to use them for those purposes. So I think that there's a reason, like you said, they were prepared. There's this substantial group of people here who truly are trying to do the best thing. And I think we see that right at the beginning.

We see the Lord in section 41 is just saying, hearken and hear. And I think that they were ready to do that. I think that they were ready to hearken. They were ready to hear. They were ready to be obedient to the Lord at this point. I love the way we're doing this here, because it seems to me that you have this group of saints in Ohio that are prepared and ready. You have this group of saints in New York who are sacrificing so much to move

and they're going to come together and it's going to be a powerful group when those two groups come together, right? I mean, it just feels like good things are going to happen. Yes, there's going to be struggles, but it feels like, wow, you're going to have a lot of power there in this little town. I just think specifically Joseph Knight, Paulie Knight coming from New York, their willingness to sacrifice the whole group that comes with them and the callings that the Lord is going to give them. I mean, you have shortly after this, we have our first Bishop being called Edward Partridge. He's only been a member for two months and he's the Bishop. I mean, no handbook of instruction, but I mean, I just, the Lord has high expectations for these people, but I think he can for a reason. I think that they are prepared,

like you said. Yeah. There's going to be a lot that's going to be required here. John, you've been to Kirtland as I have. Barb, I know you have. There's just a power that is in that little area, you know, they got the temple up on the hill. And then if you go down, you go down to the visitor's center where the Whitney store is. And there is just, I don't know. To me, it's something that's blossomed. I don't think I understood much as a young seminary teacher, how important Kirtland is to the history of the church. Because I guess we focus on Nauvoo in New York and maybe we lose a little bit of Kirtland, but I don't know. There's a power and a spirit there that just connects me with these early saints. Well, I like what Barbara said, going back to section 38, go to Ohio because I have something

there for you. You're going to be endowed with power and you're going to get the law. And then they finally did get there. And here it comes in these sections. And I'm looking at in the Come Follow Me manual, the first paragraph for this particular group of sections. I love this question. How do you unify a quickly expanding body of believers, especially when they are bringing with them doctrines and practices from their previous faiths? And that's, I think, kind of what Barbara was saying just there. You've got, they're all coming here and they're devout. They want to know what to do. And now they're here. Maybe this is a good time to jump into the content of these sections. What's the Lord's message in section 41?

John, I'm going to jump in there as well as we're doing this. I mean, since we are talking about the beginning and, you know, Hank, you were saying what's going on in Ohio. I paused for a moment because there are 65 sections, revelations that are now sections of Doctrine and Covenants that take place in Ohio. We're talking the vision. I mean, section 76. Yeah. We're talking the word of wisdom. We're talking, I mean, major sources of revelation where the Lord is actually going to be revealing extremely important doctrine over a long period of time.

I mean, we're doing 41 to 44 today, but holy cow, section 45 too. I mean, the Lord is just pounding people in the Ohio area with these major revelations. So we're saying, you know, what's going on in Ohio? Well, the foundation of the church. Yes, it's New York, but the major revelations, the major doctrinal points are going to be happening. The Lord is going to reveal these to these people for the next few years. This is extremely significant. So Carl Anderson is saying amen right now. Yeah, I'm sure. We've mentioned him a couple of times.

We ought to invite Carl on so he can tout Kirtland a little bit more. He loves to do it. To me, I think if we lose the significance, Barb, if we think of these sections as old. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Word of wisdom. Of old, oh yeah, oh yeah, a word of wisdom, of course. I've known that my whole life. Or section 76, the three degrees of glory.

I've known that my whole life. If you lose the fact that this was brand new, every one of these was brand new, you're going to lose how exciting and also mind-blowing it probably was to live in Kirtland over the next, what, eight years. I mean, I love to read the Doctrine and Covenants with the church history in mind, of course. I mean, it's hard to read it without the context sometimes. But I feel like because I'm reading this and I come to these sections, it's almost as if as the saints, they're saying, oh my goodness, like I cannot imagine the giddiness when they get there and they realize what is really going on. We're building the Kirtland Temple. We're going to receive the

keys of Elijah. Families are going to be sealed for eternity. We're going to be able to do missionary work. We're bringing back the exaltation of eternal life. We're talking about people on both sides of the veil. I mean, it's mind-boggling in reality. I mean, every time I just keep saying this, but as I go through the Doctrine and Covenants, starting in section 41 with this and what's going to be revealed for the next few years, it would blow any person's mind away if they actually understood what was happening here. Yeah. And me included. And I understand. And I seriously, sometimes I read this and I just want to throw my scriptures and say, this is too much. Like, this is crazy. This is amazing.

I mean, it is. And you said, John, like get into the scriptures. I think one of the first things in there, verse two, and it says in there, assemble yourselves together to agree upon my word. Just like the Lord is saying, okay, go to Ohio. You're not going to have a big discussion on what is right and what is not right. The Lord's going to just tell you what's right. The Lord's going to give you my law and you're going to have to agree with it. And I actually love that these people want to know the truth and the Lord is going to give it to them and they're going to believe it and they're going to act upon it. There's going to be some falling away later. We're going to know the truth and the Lord is going to give it to them and they're going to believe it and they're going to act upon it. There's going to be some falling away later. We're going to have the Kirtland Safety Society. We're going to have major problems that are going to happen

financially, religiously with some of these members of the church. But there's no question at this time that the Lord is giving his law and it is coming from God. These people believe the prophet. Yeah. Verse three, you, and by the prayer of faith, you shall receive my law. It's almost like, I think we talked about this last week with Susan, but it's almost as if the Lord in New York around December puts the restoration on hold, says, now you're ready to move. And once they're all there, he's like, okay, game on. Let's flood you now with more revelation. I can't, but Barb, as you were saying that with Kirtland, the theology that comes out of Kirtland is just, you're right. Even theologians,

Harvard theologians today would just be blown away by this farmer unfolding theology week after week after week. I just think if we can grasp that, it's much bigger than maybe we understand as we just kind of look at the black and white here on the page. Even just the reality that we have before with Hiram Page earlier in the Doctrine and Covenants where Joseph is being told, the saints are being told, Joseph is my prophet and he is going to be your prophet on the earth. But then you see in verse four, I will be your ruler when I come. I mean, he's setting up the kingdom of God on the earth that has not been understood at that point. Yes, Joseph is here. He's my prophet. I'm going to teach you the gospel, and then I expect you to live it. And

this is the law. And if you do, you will be endowed with power from on high. You'll be allowed to have the blessings of the temple, and that's all coming. But I am going to prepare you to be a temple people, and I'm going to prepare you to build a temple. I mean, it's just, the Lord just lays it all out here. He mentions in verse three, you'll receive my law. Says it again in verse four, see that my law is kept. He says it again in verse five, he that receiveth my law and doeth it the same as my disciple. So are we talking about section 42 there or even more than section 42? Like if, when I see the Lord talking about my law is, and then section 42, the heading talks about, um, the law would be given in Ohio. Um, I think the saints of that day, they saw section 42 as the law, but in our, in, in your mind,

do you see it as even more than section 42? Yeah. Anytime the Lord is teaching, we, as a, as a people, we understand as members of the church that it's a line upon line, precept upon precept revelation process with the Lord. And this is significant. And these are significant laws that the members of the church are receiving, but this is the beginning of his law. The temple hasn't been dedicated yet. There are more laws to come and the laws will continue to come until Christ comes again and on beyond that. Laws will continue as time progresses Christ comes again and on beyond that. Laws will continue as time progresses because doctrines are unchangeable. We understand that. But laws will

continue as the people progress. Before we get into the law, section 42, the Lord mentions Edward Partridge by name. And you just mentioned him about being a bishop of the church. From my studies, Edward's a great guy. He is just a really great guy. I'll give you a few things on Edward that I love. First of all, verse 11, I think, speaks volumes. When the Lord says, for he is likened to Nathaniel of old and whom there is no guile. I would love for the Lord to use that phrase with me personally. So I think that that's one of the things right off the bat that we understand about him. He shares a story about himself and when he was going through some major persecution and tarred and feathered and everything.

And he made the following statement. It's his own journal. He says, I was taken from my house by the mob who escorted me about a mile and about a half a mile to the courthouse on the public square and independent so this is happening in Missouri later and then in there I was stripped of my hat my coat my vest and daubed with tar from head to foot and then had a quantity of feathers put upon me and all this because I would not agree to leave the county and my home where I had lived for two years I bore my abuse with so much resignation and meekness that it appeared to astound the multitude who permitted me to retire in silence many looking very solemn their sympathies having To me, that's the kind of person I want to be.

If you think about Edward Partridge, he's the first bishop of the church for a reason. In a sense, as a bishop, he's receiving for the first time how he should be acting as a bishop. He has no idea. Because of his humility, I believe he's able to say, Joseph, if you really do believe this is a revelation for me, I will accept. I believe every bishop who has a good heart is taking that. But there's something special about Edward Partridge to say right off the bat, I'm a member of the church for two months, and I'm willing to do anything the Lord wants, and I'm willing to be persecuted at any length and feel the spirit and forgive. That just takes a whole different level of humanity in my book. John, I've been friends with you for a while. I remember when you were called as bishop.

I remember when you were released as bishop. And it was hard. I know it was hard to be bishop. We have bishops listening. Can you imagine being the first one? After two months. Yeah. What's going through your mind as a bishop? And get us into the mind of Edward Partridge here. Just how did you feel? I think I remember reading or watching a movie somewhere where Edward Partridge actually said, I don't know if I have a bishop in me. Does that sound right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's how I felt. For me, I at least knew there was such a thing as the handbook of instructions. And having grown up in the church, I kind of knew what bishops did. Before I sat down on the chair in the bishop's office, I had somebody in front of me asking me for

help with a big problem before I sat down. And I wanted to call the old bishop, could you come in here for a minute and help me out here? So yeah, what's he going through? And I like what Barbara said. It's one thing to say, we think he's a great guy. Here's the Lord saying, he's a great guy. Here's the Lord saying he is like Nathaniel.

He is a man in whom there is no guile. And what a compliment. And then backing that up with his experience in independence. I remember that story because you can find that place in independence. I think they put something in the sidewalk there about where that happened. And I think that's not me. I probably would have been swinging my arms and fighting back or something. One of my major goals this year was to, for at least for our listeners, was to come to a greater love for Edward Partridge. When you stand at his graveside there, you can see his headstone in

Nauvoo. Dies young, right, Barb? I mean, he dies. Yeah, he does. I can't remember his age, but he does die young. Yeah. Wears out his life, basically. I hope that's not a, I hope that's not an omen for bishops. But I just, he's, he's, he's not one of the names you automatically think of when you think of, oh, history of the church, Joseph Smith, Hiram Smith, Wilford Woodruff, Brigham Young, Emma Smith. A lot of people probably wouldn't list Edward Partridge, but my hope is that some of these secondary characters can become just more known and loved by members of the church. I know you probably do that in your classes, Barb. Just try to bring up some of these saints.

One of the things I do in my classes too, and this is the women in me, I often talk to the students about if you have Edward Partridge, then you also have a wife in this case. And what a stalwart saint she must have been. We don't know a ton about her, but we do know that she continued to live, moved to Salt Lake later. I believe she becomes the mother of one of the general Relief Society presidents, Zina Huntington, I believe. She is obviously very

strongly associated. And if I remember the story quickly, which I'm confident this is the case, I can look this up. But she was the one who actually pushes Edward to understand the gospel and to meet with the prophet Joseph Smith. There's a lot of times when we're teaching, we have these women that are equally yoked with these men and we don't have their stories often as much. But I just like to remind us as humans, she probably was helping pull off that tar from him. She was probably very involved in the pain that he was going through. And what a blessing it was for her to have a husband that was guileless. But also what a blessing for him to have a wife that stood by his side until his death. And yeah, he dies.

And I believe he was in his mid forties, 45, 46. Right. Oh, just young. She went through quite a trial with him as well. But also I think she would say that she was very blessed in her opportunity to be by his side. And I think he would say the same. I'm looking at verse nine. I've called my servant Edward Partridge. He gave me a commandment. He should be appointed by the voice of the church, be ordained a bishop under the church, this part, and to leave his merchandise and to spend all his time in the labors of the church. And you just don't do that unless you have your wife there saying, you can do this, Edward. And that's tough.

I put in my margin, this is like Peter. Leave your nets, leave your boat. And lovest thou me more than these? Come on, follow me. You're going to be fisher of men. And it sounds like Edward to me. Same thing. Her name's Lydia, right?

Yeah. Yeah, that's right. Yep. Lydia, Lydia Partridge. Thank you for bringing that up, Barb, because behind every leader in the church, there's a spouse who is there supporting and helping. I know, John, you relied on your wife when you were bishop. Could not have done it. And she would have been better than I was, but I could not have done it.

When you hear somebody talk about having a calling like that and helping share that burden of all the family life and everything, I was really grateful that she could not only be my wife, but a confidant of things that were appropriate and of just a support. So I think I'm glad you said that about Lydia, because I look at verse nine and I think you don't do that without a strong Lydia. And Barb, I know you do so much in the church. You've written books. You're a BYU professor. So Dustin, I'm sure is a full support. He's a man without guile, if you want to know how I honestly feel. I would say Edward Partridge and Dustin are very similar. Yeah. Oh, that's just beautiful. Anything else about section 41 before we get into section 42? And I got to be honest, as a kid, I would have, I would have, my, my parents would have sat down and said, let's read our scriptures. And section 42 would have scared me

to death. I would have thought we're never getting out of here, right? You just keep turning pages. It's like a Jacob five. Uh, this is, this is prolific. First off we have, it's two revelations that we're receiving here, and we can see that in the section heading. So you have 1 through 72 is the first revelation, and then you have 73 to 93 that's going to be the second revelation. The Lord asked the people to continue to pray for the law, and you see right off the bat that they did pray for the law, and they received the law. They prayed with faith, and they received this law.

And so clearly they are being obedient. The Lord is trying to create an obedient people and they are. And so the law that we're receiving, there are various laws that are going to be discussed in this section. And we can go through whatever we feel is most important. And hopefully those of you on your own can go through what's significant to you as well. When I read section 42, I thought, how do you as a dad decide what was for the saints of 1831? And what applies to me? Because some of this is going to be for those saints. It's not going to apply to me. What applies to me is what the spirit typically teaches.

For me, I sometimes will say, well, this clearly didn't apply to the saints here because not everybody could move to Massachusetts. Well, until 2014 when I was asked to move to Massachusetts, and then it applied to me when it came an answer to a prayer. All of a sudden it did apply. I didn't know that it applied. But I think the Lord can often use the white on the scriptures as answers and revelation

that we receive as we're studying the scriptures. And sometimes he uses the black markings and the words themselves as application for scriptures. As Elder Oaks says, it's a conduit to the spirit. And as I go through and I look at these different laws, I say, most of the time, I think they are applying to us. At least the principles and the doctrines behind it are applying to us. Sometimes the policies, procedures, historical context may be a little bit different, but often they are the same. But principles and the doctrines, in my opinion, are always applicable to us. It's just, it's our responsibility to figure out how they're applicable. But sometimes the spirit will teach us specifically, this is applicable to you

and continue on. So the first group of laws is teaching. And so you could say, what do these laws apply to us? Well, again, I would say principles of teaching are going to apply across the board. These are specific, some of them, to the missionaries who are going out. So you could say there's some specific things that are here. Obviously, we're going to be going two by two as missionaries in this section, but we're not going to be doing that necessarily. As it says in verse six, we're not going to necessarily doing that every time we teach the gospel.

But we are declaring the word likened to angels of God if we're doing so with the spirit, because angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. So, I mean, I think as we understand those principles of the gospel, we can go through with this. I think verse 14 as well, it's the same idea. The spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith. If you receive not the spirit, you shall not teach. You can say, as Elder Holland talks about, you shall not teach, meaning you better not

teach, or you shall not teach, meaning you don't have any authority to teach. I mean, there are a variety of ways you can see that. So I think as we're trying to apply this to ourselves, we say, okay, how does this apply to me? Should I not be teaching right now because I'm not worthy? Do I have any right to be going to that classroom? Or should I not be teaching this because of the content? I mean, there are a lot of ways you could be taking that, but the application and the care for the verse, I think is extremely important. Right. And then verse 12, also, when we're teaching, what am I supposed to teach? The elders, priests, teachers of this church teach the principles of my gospel,

which are in the Bible and in the Book of Mormon, which is the fullness of my gospel. So if you're a teacher, you're going, I don't know what to teach. Go back to 42, 12, right? Amen. Amen. You'll be safe in the principles of the gospel found in the scriptures. You know, I had a stake president once tell me, he said, you know, if there's a lot of in the church, we could probably get rid of, right? You could probably get rid of that program. You could probably get rid of that program. He said, but if you really took the church down to things you could not get rid of, one of the last ones would be teaching, right? We could not, the church cannot function without us teaching one another. And so I like that the Lord put this very first in the law is the importance of teaching and also teaching by the spirit.

Well, and I think one of my favorite talks by Elder Holland, we're obviously teachers, so this is a topic that we really do focus on, and I think it's extremely important. But one of the things that I love that Elder Holland talks about, quoting John Taylor, is that we shouldn't be teaching just spiritual Twinkies. Sometimes I think we could try to entertain, or we could try to just kind of skim through things. But God, as President Nelson says, he loves effort. And as members of the church, the Lord desires that we get into these scriptures, that we really do study, that we look for what is important in here, that we're not just satisfied with a quote here or there or a prophetic thing here and there. I mean, sometimes that's nice,

just a little soundbite, but soundbites aren't good enough. If we want to become like Christ and be those kinds of people, we have to dive into those scriptures and know these principles. And so we need to teach them correctly so that other people can feast on them as well. We had Steve Harper on the podcast before, and he said he looked at these verses, particularly 12, 13, 14, as checks and balances on teachers. And I like that. So the Lord is going to help or even restrain. You shall not teach. And I put in my margin, because I like what you said, Barbara, it's meaning don't teach or meaning you might be talking, but you won't be teaching. And so I put my margin, talking does not equal teaching and how critical the spirit is to that.

And then that kind of implies like verse 13, you've got to be observing the covenants and church articles in order to qualify to be teaching by the spirit. One thing that I'd like to do is flip the inverse on this sometimes, because some people say, I'm not a gifted teacher, right? Like I don't have charisma. I don't have, I can't be funny. And I'll say, go back to verse 14. If you receive the spirit, you shall teach. You'll be okay. So if you are, if you, if you will invest your, whatever your choices you need to make to get your heart and mind full of the spirit, you'll teach, you'll teach. Don't worry about being entertaining.

Don't worry about being funny. You don't have to be John, by the way. Right. In fact, I, John, John, one time I told, I told a woman who was really struggling with her Sunday school class. I sold her something that you told me once when you and I were chatting and you're like, I just can't get my Sunday school students to come to, to come to class. And, and I said, everyone in the church needs to hear that. John, by the way, even has a hard time getting his Sunday school 14 year olds to come to class, right? Those couches in the foyer are way too comfortable. We need to speak to purchasing about that. All of us here have observed folks without great gifts, get up in a testimony meeting or something and teach with power.

We have all seen it. And so we can all say amen to it's about having the spirit. I just want to share this. This is random, but I have this thing that I keep in my desk that I just pulled out from this conversation. And it's my handwriting in a black pen that says, was that the most boring lesson or what? Question mark. And then the response of my friend, and I actually don't even remember who wrote it. It was whoever I was sitting by. I cannot believe that I actually wrote that down and passed it to somebody. It makes me sick at my own stupidity. You were a student in the class? Yes. I mean, how bad is that? And this is the response of my friend that I was sitting next to.

That was one of the best lessons I've ever heard in my entire life. I'm not just saying that. It's a life changer. Yeah, I missed the boat on that one. I think the teacher, for whatever reason, I wasn't prepared enough to be learning from that teacher. But that teacher nailed it for my friend sitting right next to me. I love when we, is it section 50? Why is it he cannot understand and know

the Lord starts out that he that teaches with by the spirit and he that receiveth, receiveth it by the spirit and both are edified and rejoice together. And that there's a responsibility for both. And the fact that two people could be sitting next to each other and get something different is not about the teacher. It's about the spirit and the teacher and the listener. And that's a great lesson here. And did I get that right? Is that in section 50? Yeah, it is. And it fits what you were saying before with this next verse talking about keeping covenants and keeping the commandments of God. Sometimes we overlook that and say, well, that's obvious. I mean, you need to be worthy.

Well, it's not so obvious sometimes. We as teachers, as learners, the more we keep our covenants, the more we are on the path of the Lord, the more likely we are to feel recognized and understand. And therefore, both are edified together. We'll talk about later in Section 88, right? So I don't think we can overlook what the Lord is trying to teach, which I think is partially why he goes from there into that moral law, not to say what the Lord is thinking, but I think it's significant that the Lord is now going to talk about basically the 10 commandments and law of chastity and adultery and all of that comes right after that. In order to really learn, in order to really teach, we have to be worthy participants in God's kingdom. One thing before we move on from this teaching aspect,

I know that there are a lot of people listening are teachers. And so I want to hear what you two would say. And I'll start. It's easy to get discouraged as a teacher in the church, especially when all your seminary classes on Zoom or your Sunday school classes on Zoom and everybody's screen is just their name and you're going, am I making any difference here? I would say two things. You always can't see the difference that you're making just right then. Sometimes you can, sometimes you can see it and it's awesome to see, but other times you don't know till long later that you, that someone was listening, that your student was actually listening, even though, you know, it didn't seem like they were at the time. And then second,

one of the ways that I get full of the spirit is by thinking about the needs of my students, that instead of focusing on, okay, how am I going to impress this class? It's more about how can I bless this class? So if I'm thinking about, okay, what are their lives like? What problems do they have? And how can the material that I am teaching here be relevant to those problems? To me personally, that fills me with the spirit because I'm not concerned so much about me and my performance, but I'm concerned about the lives of my students. What would you two say helps you overcome that discouragement sometime in teaching? And then we can move on. But I don't know. I'm feeling like it can be tough to teach, especially if you don't do it for a living,

right? You're called to teach these teenagers or these primary kids or even adult Sunday school, and you feel like you're not getting anywhere. Well, let me answer next because Barbara probably has a better answer than I do. I hope so. I think that one of the really nice little just semantic way of putting it is you don't teach lessons, you teach students. And that's kind of what you're saying, Hank. And every one of them has come there with their own thing. And when we realize our dependence on the Spirit to carry words, what is it that Elder Bednar says? What you heard me say was for everyone, but what did you hear that I did not say? That was for you. And that's why it comes down to the same thing. If you've

got the Spirit with you, there's a bit of relaxing you can do to say the Spirit is going to help my listeners with whatever they need, even if it's not even the topic of the lesson. And there's the obligation that we feel is being in a place where the Spirit can give life to our words or give them words that we weren't even saying. Yeah, that's beautiful. Barb, what do you say? You're such a good teacher. And what do you say to those who are a little discouraged in their teaching? I have so many thoughts, Hank, on this. I mean, this is, it's dear to my heart because I do love teaching.

And it's not that I love teaching. I love watching people come into Christ. And it's like what John says, too. I mean, it sounds so cliche sometimes. And I know that some people are bothered when I say this, but people will say to me even now as a professor, what are you teaching this semester? And I say students. I do. I say students. And it's not just for them. And I'm not trying to be obnoxious, but it's a reminder for me too. Like, yes, I teach the Doctrine and Covenants. These are the subjects I teach, but I teach my students,

hopefully. And sometimes it is really hard. And sometimes as teachers, we can pray and fast and study and not feel like we're going into the classroom prepared to know what to say. But I've come to recognize that as I try my best to do my part, God does take over. And as you were saying, John, the spirit is the teacher. When I am most frustrated with my teaching, it's not when I have had a boring class or anything. When I am most frustrated, it's when, as Elder Maxwell says, I have become a spiritual eclipse in the lives of my students between God and them. It's when I'm a sage on the stage and I have so much to share and so many things that I think are important and I'm just saying it because I think it's important for me and

not even listening to the spirit and not paying attention to my students. That's when I walk away thinking, I am so bad. But then I get on my knees and I repent and I say, Heavenly Father, I'm so sorry. Please help me to be a better teacher tomorrow because no one's perfect. And I cannot tell you the number of times I have absolutely felt like I have failed in the classroom. And sometimes even in those days where I feel like I failed the most, years later, I'll get a letter from a student or something saying, thank you so much. But sometimes you just don't. And you just have to know that you're doing your best. No one's perfect. Christ was. And

the Lord will still help those students. We're not the only ones in their path, but boy, are we sure an important part, but we can overload ourselves sometimes. It goes both ways, I think. Yeah, absolutely. I have walked out of the classroom before thinking that Alma's angel was going to appear and say, seek no more to destroy the church of God, right? Like I'm like, I'm trying. I'm trying. I am trying. It's just I'm not very good at this. Not only sometimes do we say, do we feel like we didn't do well as far as what we were teaching, but there are times when I have left and felt badly for how I responded to a student's question

or a sarcastic comment that I made. And I have to go back into even the next day and say, guys, I am so sorry. I'm trying to get sarcasm out of my teaching because I feel like it drives the spirit away. But honestly, sarcasm comes very naturally to me and I'm trying to get rid of it, you know? But I don't want to aim it at you. I'll aim it at the wall instead next time, you know? So I just, there's a huge difference between humor and sarcasm sometimes in our class. I'm just thinking of times in my life where I just feel like, yes, I agree with you, Hank.

Teaching is extremely difficult, but it's a price worth paying. Can I add one more thing? I think that I liked what you said about the Twinkies or the fried froth, as Elder Holland called it. Sometimes I have left teaching. Okay, that totally bombed. But then I can go back and I can say, what did I teach? And even if I can just say, my content was solid, I was in the scriptures, it gives me a little bit of solace. And I don't really know what happened. But if I did just tell funny stories, then I probably ought to feel like I didn't teach. But if I can go back and say, I had some good content in there, I know I did, I can at least find some peace in that. And maybe I could have done it better, but I was relying on verse 12, the principles of the gospel in the Bible, the Book of Mormon. Absolutely. I was just going to say, this is one of the laws in here too, that talks about revelation, not to push us forward to that point, but it's in here as one of the laws. And I think

one of the ways that we know that we're teaching in the way that we want to, or in the way that we would like to, is to just simply get on our knees and ask Heavenly Father, or not even on our knees, just while we're driving and just say, Heavenly Father, how am I doing? Like, am I doing okay? Can you guide me here? What can I improve? Or as Elder Clark says, what can I do better that I am not doing? Or what can I do that I'm not currently doing? What do I need to stop doing that I am doing? And I think we have that conversation with the Lord as well. And if you ask me personally about my teaching, I really do believe I want to teach with an eye single to the glory of God. And if I am pleasing God, I'm doing

okay. I may make a fool of everything else and my students may walk away and it may not seem that great. But if I can go to the Lord and say, I'm doing my best with my eye single to his glory and trying to help him and people come unto him, I'm okay. Even if I am so boring or whatever it is that I'm doing. Yeah. I was on a plane once going down. Remember airplanes? We used to get on them and they're really loud and they take you above the ground.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I was on a way to a timeout for women in Southern Cal or something. And I was sitting with a rather prominent sister and I was telling her, I was just, I don't know what I can say to these wonderful sisters who are coming and everything. And she said, well, I asked my dad that once, and her dad was rather prominent. And she said, well, don't worry about pleasing them, just please the Lord. That helped me so much in every class, every teaching. I'm going to try to please the Lord today in teaching students. So that too is one of my mental note cards. Please the Lord with what you're going to teach today. If we really are trying to receive that revelation of the Lord, the Lord is not going to say,

are you kidding me right now? I mean, He recognizes our effort as well, and He will bless us for it. The Lord, as it says in the Book of Mormon, He'll consecrate our efforts unto us and to others as well. I won't do it perfectly, but He knows Mormon, he'll consecrate our efforts unto us and to others as well. I won't do it perfectly, but he knows my intent that I'm trying to please him and not be a spiritual eclipse. I love that. I love that because I like to tell a good, funny story, and I hope the Lord has a sense of humor. Yeah. Oh, he does. I think he does.

I think he does. He created us, Hank. He's got to have a sense of humor. Yeah, that's true. And he lets us do this podcast. Now we move on to what looks to me like the Ten Commandments, Hank. He's got to have a sense of humor. Yeah, that's true. And he lets us do this podcast. Now we move on to what looks to me like the Ten Commandments, Barb. Yeah. Okay, but wait, before we go on to that, can I just say something about the Lord's humor too?

Yes. Humor is so important in teaching when we can. And there have been times in my teaching where I have, this sounds a little extreme, but it's almost as if I can feel the spirit laughing right along with us. And I just hope that we recognize sometimes in our teaching, we do tend to sometimes because it's a spiritual thing, we try to be serious. There's a difference between a light levity and really mockery or something like that. And just a simple, pleasurable laugh. I do. I'm a firm believer that God really enjoys humor and has a very good sense of one himself. Thank you. It's fun to teach.

It's fun. The difference. Yeah. The difference between light. I think I heard Truman Madsen saying there's a difference between light-mindedness and light-heartedness. Yes. And he also said that, I think it was Parley P. Pratt that said Joseph Smith instructed and edified and he would have his audience laughing one minute and crying the next. And none who ever heard him were not, what does it say, affected by his discourse.

If only they'd give him their ears or something. I think it was Parley P. Pratt that said something like that. Wow, Joseph Smith even had them laughing one minute, crying the next, and they were edified if they would just listen. Yeah, you quoted earlier, John, you said, you know, the teacher and the student are both edified and rejoice together. That seems to me to be a happy thing, rejoicing. I don't know about either of you, but it seems to be a, you know, a good feeling in the room. Well, and I find that in these sections. Notice how often they're telling him to go declare my gospel and to do it with, with joy. And I've,

I've seen that and I mark it because I, I like joy. And I feel like when I study church history, I look at all their hardship and I'm glad that at least it sounds like they were also having some joy. Um, Barb, let's jump into this next section here. The Lord kind of just reiterates the Ten Commandments, how crucial they are. Walk us through this. I mean, I don't know if we necessarily have all the Ten Commandments or we don't, but he is talking about, you know, first of all, he's talking about some of the gifts and he who hath faith to see shall see, he who hath faith to hear shall hear.

You're not necessarily the Ten Commandments, but he does start jumping into where we start seeing this moral law. And he's talking about repenting and he's talking about loving thy wife and cleaving unto her and not committing adultery, not speaking evil of the neighbor. I mean, these are some serious moral laws. I love in verse 29, if thou lovest me, thou shalt serve me and keep all of my commandments. I mean, basically, these are all these laws. I love in verse 29, if thou lovest me, thou shalt serve me and keep all of my commandments. I mean, basically, these are all these laws, but really when it comes down to it, if you love me, then you will keep these commandments. Clearly, I think there are a lot of us who love the Lord

and are not perfect. I don't think that's what he's saying, but he's saying, you know, if you love me, these things will become more and more natural. But if they're not, we have this law right here, verse 21, thou shalt not, he that lieth and will not repent shall be cast out. But before that, he's talking about stealing if they shall not repent. But then we see clearly you can repent. And I think that that's one of the most important things of these moral laws, especially in our day is this reality that we can repent and we are doing our best. Yes, it's extremely important to keep these laws and to be as righteous and pure as we can. But if we do fall, there is the atonement of Jesus Christ who made this Christ himself

making this possible. And we can repent and come into him. He does mention that quite a few times. Yeah. Verse 20. It's about repentance. 23, repentance, 24, 25. And repentance is, it's a way of life.

It's not a one time I repented and I sinned again. So it's all over. Yeah. It's a way of life. It's not a one time I repented and I sinned again, so it's all over. It's a way of life. Come back to the sacrament table again next week. I love this statement. It's a quote by President Packer. It's one of my favorites on this. He says, repent, and if necessary, repent again and again and again and again until you, not the enemy, are in charge of you. Wow. This idea of repenting once, sometimes we kind of skew some of the teachings about repentance. If you repent and do it again, then you're suffering. Repent and repent and repent and repent.

This idea of I've repented, I've done it again, and then I repented and I'm doing it again. I think the Lord is trying to help us to see the key is we're not intentionally trying to do bad things. But if we are in any way sinning or transgressing, we should be repenting. I love how you said, come back to that sacrament table. Renew those covenants with the Lord. I was watching this recently, just preparing for Easter. The church made that movie called Because of Him, and it shows this picture. Because of him, we can change again.

And then it says, and again, and then it says, and again, and they're like, yes, just get back on the covenant path. There are a lot of off ramps on the covenant path, but keep getting back on the covenant path. And, and if you have to repent again and again and again, thank you. I don't mean to focus too much on one verse, but I'm going to. Yeah. Verse 27 to me is so important in our words and communities. Thou shalt not speak evil of thy neighbor, nor do him or her. I could probably add any harm for me. We could probably add and don't argue with your neighbors on social media.

Right. And don't, you know, we go, sometimes I think, John, you talked about this a couple of episodes ago that there's evil coming in from the outside, but evil can come in from the inside. And so we could do, I know I could, I could do much better at making sure I'm, I just am not talking any evil about my neighbor, even if it's true or interesting or did you hear this? The by the ways where I saw them, you know, we could do better there. I like that you brought this up because I actually put a note on my margin because here he is going through the Ten Commandments. And we all know, do not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

But this seems to elaborate on that. I mean, bearing false witness sounds like, well, no, I'm not going to perjure myself at a trial. But this is don't even speak evil nor do him any harm. So I put my margin, yeah, different than bearing false witness. Yeah, the idea of last podcast of section 38, be one. If you're not one, you're not mine. And being one with our ward members, that's where Satan will try to get us gossiping about each. Well, he always has us gossiping about each other, but yeah, actually the topical guide footnote there says gossip.

Yeah. On that verse. I got to, I got to tell you guys a story, something, um, and you'll know you've met, both of you have met my wife. I think I was talking about one of our neighbors once, and I was saying something, did you hear that? And she said, you know, what's worse. I heard he talks about people behind his back. And I was like, I think you pointed that at me, didn't you? She said, yep. Um, and it was just a reminder of, you know, don't, that's what she was saying to reminder of, you know, don't. That's what she was saying to me is, you know, there's no reason for us to speak evil of our neighbor. What's that Prodigal Son movie? I've been the good guy here. I've been the good guy.

You've been the good guy. I've been the good guy. What do you mean you've been the good guy? What does that mean? Here's another one of those awesome wives. So let me know. Yeah. Hey, do I send sarcasm coming from a church video here? All right. It was aimed at the video and not at the people, though. Yes, that was, that was at the wall, as you said. Hey, Hank, before you go on beyond that,

verse 88 continues on with, I know that's way at the end here, but the idea continues. If thy brother or sister offend thee, thou shalt take him or her between him or her and thee alone. I just, boy, can we do a lot of things before we even get to the person. Tell every brother or sister about one sister or tell every neighbor about one neighbor. Tell the whole world about how you feel about it. And then even- Yeah, except for them. Yeah, except that person. But this is, go to that person one-on-one. Don't make a big deal of it. And frankly, since we're talking about women again, we brought that up. But this is go to that person one on one, don't make a big deal of it. And, and frankly, since we're talking about women, again, we brought that up. That's one of the teachings of Joseph Smith to the Relief Society in the 1840s. He actually speaks to the women and

says, don't speak negatively of each other. And I think that that's, I think it happens with men, too, if this is not meant to be a sexist comment, by any means, but I think as women, I'll be that woman, we need to be extremely careful. We're social people. We love people often, and we need to be careful that we are building each other, helping each other, raising each other, and not putting each other down. If we're offended with another woman or individual as women, let's talk to the other woman, not every other woman. Do you know what I love on this page? First of all, I'm going to show you, I print these out because my eyes are bad, but look at the footnotes on this page. And I'm kind of funny

about this because I always notice the doctrinally rich pages. And if you're using digital, you won't see it. 27 lines of three column footnotes on page 71. But I think two things. They went to go get the law. People are coming from all different backgrounds, like the come follow me manual said. And the Lord is kind of reiterating. Nope, those 10 commandments still matter. And I'm going to give you three or four extra verses about thou shalt not commit adultery. I'm going to talk about intent.

I'm going to give you a thou shalt in verse 22, love thy wife with all thy heart. And I love that one because when Jesus was asked, what's the great commandment in the law? He narrowed it down to two that both begin thou shalt love. And here's another one. Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart. And Matt Richardson pointed out once this, he thought was the only time that we love something other than God with all of our heart. And it's our spouse here. I thought, oh, that's really, that's really nice. I love that, John. And he also, making it a commandment makes loving a choice. Yeah. Right. Sometimes we say, oh, we fell out of love. Oh, we fell in love. Like I didn't mean to, I just stepped in it. Right. Instead it's, this is a choice to love your spouse is a choice.

Oh, that's beautiful. Please join us for part two of this podcast.