followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 45 : Dr. Brent L. Top Part II

Episode Date: April 24, 2021

Will the Lord come like a “woman in travail” or a “thief in the night?” Dr. Brent Top continues his discussion of the signs of the times and teaches how the Lord encourages us four times more than warnings. Join John, Hank, and Dr. Top for Part II as they discuss how our relationship to the Lord is what we should focus on and then we will be in a position to recognize when He comes because we will be near Him.Shownotes: www.followhim.coYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast00:00  Welcome to Part II 01:13 Ratio of Lord’s Counsel vs. Warning in Section 45 05:00 Dr. Top’s Confidence in God Helps with Anxiety06:07 God Will Be With Zion in the Last Days and Will Swallow Up Any Threat09:22 Reminder That Section 45 Isn’t a Negative Section12:14 Prepper Kits Won’t Help Us If We Haven't Filled Our Souls with Righteousness13:51 Virtue is the Power of Christ: Not Just Moral Cleanliness15:08 Dr. Top’s Personal Experience as a Temple Sealer17:21 Hank Shares How Parable of the Ten Virgins Relates to Us and Why We Can’t Share Our Oil19:45 Two Metaphors for Jesus’s Sudden Return Depend on Our Relationship: Laboring Mother or Thief23:31 Why We Can’t Put the Signs of the Second Coming in Sequential Order26:45 What the Lord Means When He Says “Quickly” or “Soon”28:51 Gathering Includes People From All Faiths32:13 Jesus Appears to the Lamanites in the Americas33:20 Bishop of Stockholm Great Friend to the Church34:20 Holy Envy of Great Parts of Other Faiths38:40 Dr Top Shares Story of High School Friend Who Joined Church But Didn’t Know Dr. Top was LDS43:00 Dr. Top’s Closing Testimony

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. Jump over to verse 55. We begin that glorious millennial reign. We're going to read more and more about this in the Doctrine and Covenants and other revelations. Section 101 is one of the great revelations on the millennial. But it really comes down here as he tells the parable of the 10 virgins. Okay. Remember we talked about that this was Matthew 24 and Matthew 25. When I was working on my book, Watch and Be Ready, I looked particularly at chapter 25. And even when we look at section 29 and 45 and 101, we tend to focus on

the signs of the times that are challenging difficulties. And we look at the tribulations and, you know, we joke about the eyeballs falling out and all of those kinds of things. But the revelation itself uses those maybe as, for lack of a better way of saying it, it's not a great metaphor, as hors d'oeuvres. And chapter 25, the parables of preparation is the main course. In fact, in chapters 24 and 25 of Matthew, and I haven't counted it up, but I think section 45, it may be the same ratio. But when I was working on my book, Watch and Be Ready, as I went through that carefully, because there's so many people that are distressed about the signs of the times, the Savior's words concerning preparation and not being troubled, the ratio of those to the negative signs of the times is four to one. The Lord's counsel to us and his promises to us appear in the revelations four times more than the

desolation prophecies. Doesn't that tell you what we ought to focus on? And so then you go to the revelation when he talks about the 10 virgins, and we're all so familiar with that parable of Matthew 25 there. But there are three parables of preparation there, and all of them are counsel that the Lord is saying to us, you got to be ready for this. Now at the first of section 45, he said to us, all you got to do is believe me. Well, that's really what he's telling us here. So you now to go over to verse 57, where he's now going to give us part of the interpretation of the parable of preparation that we get in Matthew 24 and Joseph Smith Matthew. Okay, look at this. The ten virgins, for they that are wise,

have received the truth, believed on me, accepted him, embraced the everlasting covenant, and then they've had hands laid upon their heads, confirmed members of the church and commanded to receive a gift. And we believe on Christ and we press forward and believe him that he's got our back. And then what happens? They take the Holy Spirit for their guide and have not been deceived. Verily I say unto you, they shall not be hewn down and cast into the fire, but shall abide the day. So I go back when my children or grandchildren or students or stake or ward members are stressed out by all the signs or the falsehoods that are happening in 2021, just like they were in 1831 or in century

one. If they have the spirit and they treasure up the words of the Lord, they shall not be deceived. So mom and dad, I'm thinking of my own kids, are not just not paying attention. But as we have the spirit, we can be not troubled. We can have confidence even though we have concern about the effects and the things that are going on around us. Confidence is what is going to give us greater trust. Doesn't mean that the pain is any less. I've had, I'm trying to think, I think I've had 11 members of my family that have had COVID, some more than others. So I can't say, oh, that's no big deal. Can't say that at all. But I have the confidence of the promises of God. That's really the message of section 45. And so as you look down at the end there, verse 58 of 45, and the earth shall be given unto them for an inheritance, and they shall multiply and wax strong, and their children

shall grow up without sin unto salvation. Every time I read that verse and thought, why did we start our family now, you know? Why don't we wait? Yeah, that would have been a whole lot better raising our kids then. But here in verse 59, for the Lord shall be in their midst and his glory shall be upon them. And he will be their king and their lawgiver. So when President Nelson talks to us about the difficulties may surround us, you will have difficulties. And he says, I'm not saying it's

easy. But then when he talks about the glorious promises that await. And so we look at section 45, we see the wars and rumors of wars and the wars in our own land, now look down to verse 66. When Zion is established, look at the glorious promises, look at the power. And so while we see people around us that verbally, online, with literature, terrorize us and our beliefs and mock us, ultimately, they're the ones that are going to be afraid because the glory of God will be with Zion. And then I just love this part in verse 67, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there because God's power is so strong. It is so incredible. It swallows up every other attack or tribulation upon us, including death will be swallowed

up. That terror will swallow up any of those things that have bothered us. And those that are wicked, that have not trusted in God's power and promises, will not come unto it, because they will recognize the strength and power of Zion. Verse 71, and it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations and shall come to Zion singing the songs of everlasting joy. In section 29, as you read and studied that, there was a ton of stuff there that wouldn't be songs of joy. The things that we've highlighted in section 45, there's not, I mean, there could be R-rated movies for the violence and for the difficulties. I mean, and we're witnessing it around us. But I think the Lord is saying to us, hang on,

because the glorious promises are more than you can imagine right now. And while we may have those moments of fear and wonder of how we're going to make it day to day, I think section 45 is a reminder that Zion is a place of safety. Zion is a place of peace. Zion is a place of power, incredible power. And our job is to believe in Christ, accept the everlasting covenant, follow him to Zion, and stay put. I think that's section 45. That's Brother Top's Cliff Notes version. their top cliff notes version oh brent it was just absolutely um absolutely wonderful to to recognize that this isn't a negative section it's almost like when you read the book of revelation and you realize it's a hopeful message yeah that's victorious coming yeah and we we get we focus on

the the the scourges and the desolations and the earthquakes, and no one ever gets to the end where the Lord says, oh, you got, the end is the best part. Yeah. I think there's something kind of settling to have the Lord say, to tell us, even the bad stuff, this is going to happen, this is going to happen, actually can strengthen our testimony because we can look around and say, wow, that's what the Lord said would happen. Wow, that's what the Lord said would happen. Wow, that's what the Lord said would happen. And instead of saying, where is God? We can say, whoa, prophecy works.

This is exactly. So stay close, family, because he is preparing us. That's right. Well, and you can just see in the church how the Lord has prepared us, how the Lord prepared us for the pandemic, and we didn't even see it. The home church and everything. Oh, all of those things.

And so as you pointed out, John, is that if you're seeing all these things being fulfilled around us, that ought to give you greater confidence, not fear that it's going to turn out okay. And it's like bookends. And so in section 45, the bookends were, remember we started out our discussion today saying, I'm your advocate. And then he's saying, Zion is established and I'm in your presence.

Well, all of the stuff in between those two bookends, those ought to say to us, wait a second, I had the preface that told me he's got me, and I've got the ending that tells me he's with me. All I've got to do is stay true to those promises and hang on. And that's, I mean, that's my simplistic approach to signs of the times. So if you wanted a book that says on Thursday, April 1st, this will happen. On Friday, April 2nd, this will happen. It's not there because four times more preparation counsel from the Lord to his disciples than signs. And so I'm personally going to observe the signs around me, but with four times the spiritual and emotional and physical energy, I'm going to focus on the preparation that my soul will be saved at the harvest.

Yeah. A 72, I think it was Elder Oaks once who said a 72 hour kit is useful, but a 72, you know, a 72 year spiritual kit is much more useful. That's right. Yeah. And I have a, and maybe I'll get in trouble, but I have a line in my book there about having guns in the bomb shelter and having your prepper supplies won't cut it if we haven't filled our souls with the reservoirs of righteousness that the Lord has asked us to do. Because I love the Book of Mormon and I love the war chapters. You will watch Captain Moroni. It is always spiritual preparation first. It is always get your act together. Oh, and then, yeah, let's make some swords and some forts and some fortifications, but get your minds faithful to God. Then we'll go to the next part. And that's why I like the comparison of the 10 virgins there. I was going to say something else too. I think I've

heard Robert Millett use this example, but have you ever watched a football game where you knew the outcome, but maybe you were protecting other members of your family. I can't watch it until later. And they don't know what's going to happen and they are unsettled and up and down and you are just laughing inside because you know your team's going to come back and win. And I are unsettled and up and down. And you are just laughing inside because you know your team's going to come back and win. And I feel like that's how the Lord's prepping us. Hey, this will happen. This will happen. And we can look and say, that's true. That's true. But in the end, the Savior is the Savior. He is the victor as promised. And that's why I love the way you've put this together. The book ends. And yeah, there's a lot.

There's a lot of stuff here. Section 29. But look at the beginning. Look at the end. We know what's going to happen in the end. If I could just build upon that, John, there's you can see all throughout the scriptures that those promises that should strengthen us. And that's why the signs should not overly trouble us. You remember where the Lord says, let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly.

And now how many times I know the two of you and I have spoken to you a zillion times about those phrases. But it's not just moral cleanliness. Virtue is the power of Christ. Let the power of Christ garnishivete that isn't real. No, remember the Lord said, if I am letting the power of Christ permeate my thoughts and my being, he says, then shall thy confidence wax strong in the presence of God. That's what section 45 is about also, is yeah, there's stuff happening, but thy confidence can wax strong when you understand the promises in the everlasting covenant. If I could just maybe in a personal vein without being too

personal or too inappropriate, as you mentioned, John, in my introduction, I serve as a sealer in the Mount Timpanogos Temple, one of the most incredible blessings of my life. The authority and the power that was conferred upon me is truly awesome. Truly awesome when you think about it. And so when I have the, and I, this week, I have this privilege again with a couple that kneel across the altar, and I ask them to make a covenant, the covenant that is mentioned in section 45, and throughout the restoration, that new and everlasting covenant. And then I seal upon them blessings and promises that are beyond comprehension of the mortal mind. That is what the Lord is doing for us. He's saying, will you take this covenant? And if you will take this covenant, then I'm going to bless you with the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all that that entails.

That is awesome in the truest sense of the word. And so that's how I look at the revelations and those. I mean, if you put all the negative, quote, negative things in the Doctrine and Covenants in that context, then can our confidence whack strong as we face the future. Man, that was so, so just powerful and wonderful. I was thinking of when I teach the parable of the ten virgins in my New Testament class, I try to make it personal for the students. And, you know, a lot of them are getting married or just recently married. And I'll ask someone, you know, who's been recently married? And they'll say, oh, you know, Maddie will raise her hand. And I'll say, Maddie, who's your best friend in the whole world, your best friend? And she'll say, oh, you know, a Maddie will raise her hand and I'll say, Maddie, who's your best friend in the whole world? Your best friend. And she'll say, oh, it's, you know, so and so it's it's my it's my friend, Julie.

I say, did Julie come to your wedding? Oh, yeah. Yeah. She wouldn't miss it. What if she missed it? Would you be worried about her? Yeah. What if she told you the next day? Oh, you know what? I just couldn't make it. I just couldn't make it. You know, I missed it. I'm sorry. She said that would hurt. And I think in a way, the Savior in the parable of the 10 virgins is saying, this is my big day and we're friends. I want you to be there. Be ready. This is my big moment. And when we just kind of, when we are foolish, we think, oh, it's no big deal. It's no big deal, right? I'll do other things. To me, it's a personal relationship where the Lord is saying, be like these wise single

girls. That's what a virgin is in the New Testament. Yeah. Be like these wise girls and care. Just care. Yeah. And get involved and take the Holy Spirit for their guide, right? The idea of that's your oil. Store it up. Store it up and involve yourself with me. You know, that's beautiful,

Hank. I love that because when you say the word care, we could add another one to that. The reason why my best friend's going to be at my wedding, or hopefully my best friend's going to be at my funeral, is because of love. Yeah. And if we love the Lord, and you use the word care, and I think the synonymous there is that I wouldn't miss it because I love him so much. That's exactly right. When, you know, the door is shut,

some of my students say, oh, he's so mean when the door is shut in the Parable of the Ten Virgins. And I think the mean one is those who didn't, they didn't show up. Right. It was my wedding. Yeah, I don't care.

They don't. And you know, when you say, well, they were filling their oil lamps, that's not like a checklist of saying, okay, I got to go to church three times this month to count it. You know, I've got to read my scriptures five days out of seven to count it. And, you know, as we've taught seminary, we've fallen into that category a time or two of focusing so much of, okay, a star on the forehead for this and do this. And it is, if I had to prepare myself or to travel a certain distance because I love my best friend so much, I would not view that as a checklist burden of a bunch of things

that I have to do. That would be, I am glad, I am honored to be able to do this because I love my friend so much. Yeah. I'm aware of kind of two metaphors for the last days of Jesus's coming. In verse 19, but verily I say unto you that desolation shall come upon this generation as a thief in the night. And another one that I've heard is as a woman in travail. And I always like the latter one because the woman in travail kind of knows. Right. And she has known for months.

And the very fact that the Lord is telling us all this kind of puts us more as the woman in travail. We know the signs. We're watching for it. Whereas a thief in the night, you have no idea when that's going to come. Could you comment on that? I agree with you totally. And I think for those that do not know the pregnant woman that is in labor, it will be like a thief at night. But if you're close and you're relatives, or you know this woman that is about to give birth, and you're part of that extended family, for lack of a better way of saying it, then it doesn't come as a thief in the night. It is

coming in a way that, yeah, we can see this. As you mentioned, I'm a gospel doctrine teacher, and my last time I was teaching was section 27, when the Savior's talking about the great last sacrament meeting that he's going to attend with us at the end of the world, and as you have Elder McConkie's commentary, it is Adam on Diomen. And so, you know, if you think about that, those faithful covenanted saints, those faithful covenanted saints are going to be like those surrounding the woman in travail. We're seeing the signs of labor and delivery. And so I don't know exactly what hour or maybe even what day she gives birth. But when I'm at that sacrament meeting at Adam on Ammon, whatever way God uses technology to get us all there, I don't think we're going to be too shocked that the glorious

second coming is nigh at hand. Yes. And I think that's a great way to look at all of this is the Lord loves us and cares enough. I mean, he could have just, I'm not going to tell you, you're just going to be surprised after surprise, but instead he's saying, you're going to see this, you're going to see this, you're going to see this, but don't worry, but you're going to see this and you're going to see this, but don't be troubled because I got you. And that is a nicer way of looking at it that, well, thank you for telling us what to expect so that we don't lose

hope. Yeah. In fact, I've got a, what you've said is right on target. And I've got maybe a more simplistic way of saying it in my own life is that as I have never gotten into signs of the times that much as a focus of my study in some way. I had a very, very prominent member of the church when I was serving as dean, and I've got to be careful how I say this. No, he will not be speaking at general conference, but maybe he did in the past. Called me and wanted me to review a manuscript or co-author a work with him that would put the signs of the times in the proper sequence. And I refused to do it respectfully because one, I don't think you can. I don't think the Lord has ever really done that for us in the scriptures.

And then my personal philosophy has been, and it really doesn't matter. And so with the second coming and even with all of the parables of preparation, and the latter day revelations that we have, it really doesn't matter in that if I am faithful, and if I am continually repenting, and changing, and trying to improve, and trusting in the Lord, and trying to keep my covenants, I will be a participant in the second coming, period, exclamation point, and with whatever great emoji and gif you could add to it. Yeah, I love that, because you don't have to be a second coming scholar, you know, having listed out every sign and that's not what the Lord is asking here.

That's right. So are you saying this dry erase board I've got behind me, I can just erase this? I'd like to tell my students, rather than wondering when Christ will come, let's just come unto Christ. And then it doesn't matter when he comes, because we will already be with him. And no, it was not John that was submitting the manuscript for me to look at. No, but with my students, I would emphasize over and over again what the Lord emphasized to the disciples in the Olivet Discourse, but also in section 29, 45, 101, other places, when he says, no man knoweth. And I often quote President

Ballard when he says, I would think that if the Lord was going to reveal it to anybody, he would reveal it to the living prophet, the first presidency, and the council of the 12. And he says, we haven't had that, and I don't know. And so I emphasize over and over again, thief in the night, woman in travail, whatever, is we just don't know. And he wants it to remind us, you don't know. But he will say, it's nigh at hand. And I often say, if it was nigh at hand in 1831, it's nigher at hand in 2021. I started looking at the end of all these sections that are in the 30s. I come quickly, I come quickly, I come quickly. And I'm like, you've been saying you're coming quickly for

190 years. Maybe that word does not mean what you think it means. Well, you know, when one day is a thousand years to the Lord, oh man. But the point is, yeah, stand in holy places, be not moved. And it probably, John, it probably wouldn't be very good of him to say, well, it's not anytime soon, so don't worry about it. But isn't that really what people are kind of saying when they're saying, well, how much time have I got before I really got to get serious? Really got to clean up my act. The Lord doesn't leave that room.

He doesn't leave that room. And so that's why I always go back to section 64 and I'll tell the students, well, I've told you nobody knows, but I know. And the Lord tells you right here when he says, tomorrow I cometh. Tomorrow I cometh. And then he said, for you labor while it's called today. And today is today until the second coming. Yeah. And then he comes tomorrow. My tomorrow may not be Hank's tomorrow. Hank's tomorrow may not be John's tomorrow. Or it may be that we're all caught up with the Savior tomorrow. We don't know.

But in the meantime, let's trust in the Lord and hold on. Hold on for dear life. I had a comment,, I would love to hear what you think of it, Brent, because I know you're a bridge builder with other faiths. This section is two members of the church. That's the audience. I do see some very cool mentions of other faiths. First, he mentions the Jews. Um, I have a wonderful, uh, a couple of wonderful Jewish friends as do both of you, because, you know, we spend time, a lot of time in Israel. And one of them, I bet you've met him. He's a Scottish man named Alan. You know Alan, don't you know John? And he speaks Hebrew with a Scottish accent. And it's

just, it's really fun. It's really something. Yeah. And I remember one time I asked Alan, he said, you know, I'm an open book, ask me anything. And so I'm, you know, and he's a very faithful Jew. And I said, tell me about Jesus, Alan, tell me about Jesus. And he said, oh, Jesus, he's a great man, a great teacher. You know, he's awesome. Is he the Messiah? No, no, Jesus was not the Messiah. And I love that he is a good man. Alan is a good man. He loves God. And I love here the Savior. He is non-condemnatory to this in, you know, this reference to Zechariah when he says, these are the wounds with which I was wounded in the house of my friends. I am he who was lifted up.

I am Jesus that was crucified. There's something inclusionary there that he doesn't say, and now you're done. You're wiped out. He teaches them. Verse 54, the heathen nations. Will be redeemed. Will be redeemed, yeah. In verse 71, you were talking about Zion, and he says, and it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations. To me, that seems very inclusionary of all faiths. I think it's very perceptive to see that.

In fact, in my interfaith work and in my bridge building with those that are of other Christian denominations, as well as people that are not Christians, the group of religious educators from universities in Saudi Arabia, and the women were in the burqas where you could only see your eyes. And yet, as they would talk about their values and their faith and their goodness and the way that they're raising their families, I'm involved in a very official way with a Jewish dialogue, and I am so inspired with holy envy of so many of the things that I learn. And then I'm involved in dialogues with Latter-day Saints and evangelicals that can be spirited at times, but I have holy envy for so many of their beliefs and their passion and their love for the Lord Jesus Christ.

I have a group right now in my capacity as the Richard L. Evans Chair for Religious Understanding religious understanding that we're discussing what constitutes Zion, and the prophet Joseph Smith clearly envisioned a Zion that was broader than just the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Now, we know the covenant and the covenant path, but I never refer to my interfaith dialogues with scriptural terms like heathen nations. That usually doesn't build bridges right out of the chute. But I think we see the promises of God truly are inclusionary. And it may very well be that many of us at the second coming will be surprised at who is caught up to meet the Messiah that maybe they didn't even recognize in mortality. I don't know.

I have stopped saying something I used to say too often just about the Book of Mormon. Oh, when Jesus appeared to the Nephites, and I don't say that anymore because they were Lamanites, And he told them, all ye that are spared because you are more righteous than they. So I try to say now, when Jesus appeared to the righteous in the new world, and then he tells us what that cutoff was, and the cutoff wasn't very high. It was like, those of you who didn't stone the prophets, you know, you're the ones. And then he tells them them will you please repent so it's not like they were perfect either the bar was pretty low yeah those of you haven't murdered anybody lately will you

repent now but anyway i i love that uh i hope that i hope that's still the bar because i haven't stoned any prophets but uh so i like that and that he remembered that heathen nations where was another verse wasn't another section we're just reading he remembereth the heathen and all are alike unto god and they're they're remembered they're loved and i will you explain that term holy envy i think i remember where it came from was it crystals it was christopher stendhal yeah uh who was uh he had been the he was a bishop of stockholm he had been the, he was a bishop of Stockholm. He had been the dean of the Harvard Divinity School. Yeah.

And when the open house for the Stockholm Temple was taking place, and there were so many protests against the Latter-day Saints, as we see all the time, that when Brigham Young taught that when the Latter-day Saints are building a temple, the, the bells of hell will ring. And Brigham said, I love that sound. Let the bells ring. And, uh, I, I used to teach my missionaries when I was mission president that, uh, the greater the opposition to your message, the more Satan is worried about you. If Satan isn't really tempting and opposing you, that's a real problem that you've got. And so, well, in any event, it was all of that turmoil with regards to the Stockholm Temple. And it was Christor Stendhal who came to the defense of the church in a news conference, if I remember right, or to the press and to the protesters when he gave the three rules of religious engagement.

And he said, you always compare your best with their best, not their worst against your best. You always let them tell their own message, not you tell their message. And then the third one was you have holy envy that other people have things that you would envy to have in your own worship, in your own practice. And I mean, we can't go to the Holy Land without having holy envy of the devotion and faith and passion. Or even back in the old days when I was able to even go into Sinai, and we don't get to go to Sinai, and climbing Mount Sinai thinking I was going to die. And my

students were mocking me that I was huffing and puffing the last third of climbing up that mountain. And they said, come on, Brother Top, you're not as old as Moses was. And I had to remind them that Moses was caught up to the top. He didn't climb to the top. But then I get up to the top, huffing and puffing, and here's a 70-plus-year-old Italian woman who is on a pilgrimage that has climbed that to show her love and devotion for her God. And you see it all around you. When you use that phrase, more righteous than me, I find that often there are good and honorable and wonderful people that are going to be on the earth after the Savior's coming that haven't come unto the new and everlasting covenant. But that's all the more reason why I am going to learn from them.

And hopefully in my love and friendship and bridge building, they will desire to learn of me, which may or may not lead to them coming into the kingdom. Yeah. Come to Zion. They'll see it. They'll see Zion. They'll say, that's where I want to be. Well, I see it. They'll see Zion. They'll say, that's where I want to be. Well, I saw it. We see that with, I've hosted hundreds of religious leaders and scholars when I was dean, and they come on the campus of BYU and they say, I feel something.

I feel something. And it's really true. There is a spirit of the why or the spirit of the gospel. And then that spirit leaves them when the cart is going past the testing center. Yeah, there's a void in that area. Then the dark clouds envelop them. And I'll bet Heber J. Grant would really like us to change the name of that building. He's like, why did I get the testing center? Why do you have to associate this with...

Why couldn't we at least name that building for Lucifer? This is the adversary building. That is great. I'm glad you talked about Holy Envy because I don't think a lot of people have heard that. And I think I saw a video of Krister Stendahl actually explaining that. And, and I thought that's a big, so that it doesn't sound like an oxymoron, you know, tell them what you mean. So thank you for doing that. Yeah. Well, uh, Krister Stendahl was also a dear friend of Truman Madsen. And so maybe what you've seen was Truman. It was a Truman Madsen video, I think that, and they showed him, um, yeah.

Yeah. He was a, he was a very dear friend of the church. When I was in high school, he was a rock-solid Presbyterian and a close friend and kept the For the Strength of Youth standards just like we did. And then I had to look around and try to explain to him why there were Latter-day Saints that weren't keeping him. Right. And, you know, that helped me a lot through high school to have this just rock solid Presbyterian. And so I'm grateful for his influence. Well, let me share with you a kind of a similar experience, but maybe not as positive reflection on me.

But my senior year in high school, and I know it's hard to believe now, but I was actually a basketball star and I was a great athlete. And my kids say that the older I get, the greater I was in my memory. But so my senior year, there was one junior that was on the starting five of my high school team with me. And I told Hal, the junior, I said, as an underclassman, you have one job when you're on the floor

and that is you are to rebound and you are to pass me the ball. Those are the only two things that you do. are to rebound and you are to pass me the ball. Those are the only two things that you do. And so we would banter back and forth, and he was not a member, and I don't think he was a believer in just about anything, but we had a prayer before one of our basketball games. I don't know whether we can even do that today, But in those days, all of our sporting activities, we had a prayer and they called on Hal, my friend, who was on the starting five, was not a member of the church in a predominantly LDS community. I think most everybody on the team was. And he offered,

and the coach said, Hal, would you be willing to pray? And he said, yeah. And he said, dear Lord, please bless the other team that they won't feel bad when we kill them. Amen. And we had been on like a 10-game losing streak. And that night we went out and wiped out this team that was supposed to beat us. And so Hal became our designated prayer. You got to pray every time. Unbeknownst to me, when I was on my mission, Hal had gotten involved in seminary activities and become friends with a lot of the youth kids,

joined the church, went on a mission. And after I'd come home from my mission and had married Wendy, and lo and behold, he comes in and I see him first time since he was a junior in high school. And I say, Hal, that is so wonderful. I am so proud of you. I wish I would have been the one to share the gospel with you. And Hal said, well, Brent, to tell you the truth, I didn't know you were a member of the church. Oh, Now, it hit me in that I was living the gospel, but I was passively living the gospel rather than actively living the gospel.

Oh, wow. And when you see in section 45 there some things about the light shining in darkness, I was just happy to go along, to get along. I wasn't doing anything bad. I was a good Latter-day Saint youth, but I was not letting the covenant shine brightly in my life and from my mouth. That's a story. It reminds me of Elder Holland's talk about a prayer for the children where he said some of the adults are making their fate for their children too hard to detect. Right. Exactly right. Yeah. Yeah, that really was. I have a good

friend who's a Jehovah's Witness. I sometimes do corporate work and I met him through some of my corporate speaking. And we meet up, you know, once or twice a year, you know, we'll be at a corporate event. We'll go to lunch. And my goodness, his faithfulness impresses me to no end. That's all he wants to do is what he calls his ministry. Yep. And he says, you know, what are you, what are you, what are you doing? What are your goals? You know, and I'm going, well, I build the kingdom of Hank. And he says, and I said, what are your goals? And he said, oh, you know, if I could, I'd just

love to go full-time in ministry. Um, right now I only get, I think he said only get 30 hours a week because of my job to, to do my ministry. And I, that to me was so impressive. And I thought, this is a good, good man who loves God. And yeah. Yep. That's holy envy. Evangelicals who just love Jesus and know the word. Well, let's go to our last question. Dr. Topp, you're a historian. You're a gospel scholar. There's no doubt about that.

You've been teaching the scriptures and church history for, you don't look it, but it's been four and a half decades. Yeah. I started when I was minus six, so I'm 39. I want to count all the premortal time you spent teaching as well. You've been Dean of the Religion Department at BYU. I know you have rubbed shoulders with the general authorities in that role. You've served as a bishop. You've served as stake president. You've served in mission president. I don't think we talked about that you were in Nauvoo there and around Illinois for three years. You know, as much as anyone about the history of the church, about Joseph Smith, about their highs and their lows, about their triumphs and their tragedies.

And you are a faithful and father and as a son of God. debatable about the knowledge that I have, what you have introduced. I do not profess to be a historian, but I try my best to stay up on some things and to read the scriptures. But clearly, there are those that know tons more. But let me just share an experience that I had when I was serving as the associate dean to—Bobett, who was the dean of religion at that time. And some of your listeners, and you guys are maybe even too young to remember, but the Southern Baptist Convention had their national or international convention in Salt Lake City. And President Hinckley was president of the church and asked that we be good neighbors and really help them to feel the spirit of Salt Lake City and that we not engage in Bible bashes or other kinds of things. And it was interesting that I think the convention went quite well. At the end, Channel 2 in Salt Lake City, they had a reporter that had a news show, and his name was Rod Decker. And Rod always would kind of pit people against each other to get both sides of an issue. And it was always very,

very interesting. And Rod was a very, very interesting and provocative reporter. And Rod had invited one of the participants of the Baptist Southern Convention on his show. And then they had invited Robert Millett, the dean of religious education to BYU, to represent the Latter-day Saints. And it was kind of set up to be somewhat of a debate. In this corner. Exactly. It wasn't quite that overt, but everybody knew what was going down. And so you had a very knowledgeable Baptist and a pastor and a very knowledgeable religion professor who happened to be the dean of religion at BYU and had happened to written a lot of books.

Well, in that television half-hour program, and I say this with all due respect to my Baptist friend that was interviewed, that Bob ate his lunch. And it was, I mean, it was just amazing how Bob was able to do things. Well, that aired like on a Sunday night, the last night of the convention. And Monday morning, Bob had received a phone call from another Baptist minister saying that other Baptist last night on that program did not represent us well, and I need to talk to you, and we need to discuss the issues that I have with Mormonism. We could use Mormon in those terms back in those days. And he said, I'd like to talk with you. Have you got some time where I can pose my questions to you that didn't get asked last night? Well, we knew immediately where that was going. Bob walked down to my office as

associate dean and said, would you be willing to sit in on this? We spent four hours going over, I mean, there were amazing questions and discussions, and Bob knew this guy's literature better than he knew it. And I think he was actually shocked that here were a couple of Mormons that actually knew a few things and were a little surprised. He was a little surprised by it. When we got all done and we'd had a very spirited, interesting discussion, and it was mostly my job was when Bob taught a really great point, I would say, yeah, that's right. And that was about all I contributed to the discussion. Well, not quite. But when we got done, this wonderful Baptist minister who had posed every difficult question

that has come up over and over and over and over again, he looked at us and he looked around in the dean's office and all of Bob's books all around the walls. And compared to my library, it's nothing. And the difference is Bob had read all those books. And in my library, mostly they're there for show. And, uh, but he said to, he said to us, he said, I can't believe that you too believe knowing, you know, all, you know, now look at that you know. Now, I know he was discussing it in an intellectual academic sense. Both of us, I'll put myself a little bit with Bob on that. Both of us know a few things, and both of us have studied a lot through the years. And the more that I study, the greater is my belief. The more that I study the Book of Mormon and study the Doctrine and Covenants, the more I am absolutely amazed at the words that come through the prophet Joseph Smith that we have recorded in the standard works.

Now, more than that, I mean, besides putting Moroni's promise to the test, and I've had that confirmation over and over and over again, I have come to discover that most of the time the people that have the questions and deep, deep doubts, and I have those in my own family, I understand that they're struggling. I understand the depth of their pain in trying to come to some resolution there. And maybe I don't fully comprehend where they are in their faith journey and their faith crises. I understand that I may not fully be where they're at, but I've also learned that most of the time it's not about getting answers because there are answers. Every question that has been posed to me through 45 years as a religious

educator, every question that were posed to me as a mission president, I had, my missionaries thought, oh my gosh, we've got a religion professor. We're going to have him answer all of our investigators' questions, and we will lead the church in baptisms. And they would ask me to come and say, we know, President, that if you would just answer this one question, our investigator would be baptized. Never once happened. And I could spend hours and hours with people. Mostly, it is not about the answers. Now, for some, it is. Mostly, people will think, oh, the church lied to me about this or that. And I'll say, no, I knew that. I read that.

Maybe we were running in different circles in some way, but the answers were there. Most of the time, it was really a struggle. And I like the word, a crisis of faith. It is not a crisis of knowledge. It is not a crisis of information. It's a crisis of faith. And at certain points in our lives, we may not have enough faith in Joseph Smith or the restored gospel or the church, or we may have been treated badly by someone or had a bad experience by something. But for me, it still boils down to the faith, that I have had far more experiences that confirm my faith

and strengthen my faith than those that challenge my faith or even challenge my intellect in that regard. When I was stake president, I used to say to the bishops as we would train them, is that I would say living the gospel of Jesus Christ is not hard. Living with the consequences of not living the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is hard. And I have in my own life, I have the spiritual witnesses that come by the power of the Holy Ghost, that I have them again and again and again, the burning in the bosom. I have those intellectual witnesses as I study the words of Joseph Smith, as I study the faith and devotion of those pioneers and subsequent prophets. Yes, there are warts. Yes, there were

mistakes, but you cannot question faith and devotion. I have those intellectual witnesses and testimonies, but most of all, I have a witness that comes from the fruit of gospel living. The fruit is sweet. My life is better. I have a daughter that has left the church, and she made a very interesting observation, and she didn't, I don't think she intended it as a compliment or as a positive, but she made a very interesting statement that she said, when I was in the church, I felt like I had an anchor weighing me down of all the things that I thought I had to do. Now, that said to me, I guess as a dad, I didn't do a very good job of teaching her about the grace of Christ. And she felt that she could never, ever measure up. And so she said that she felt that she could never ever measure up. And so she said that she felt this anchor pulling her down

and that was the source of her crisis of faith. When she made the conscious effort with her husband to leave the church, she then made an interesting observation and she said, and now I feel like I don't have any anchor to anything. Now that was profound. To be anchorless in this day and age is not only painful and problematic and difficult and dangerous. You got to have faith. As the song says, you got to have faith. For me, I press forward in faith. I have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I have faith in the truth has been so deeply and richly blessed.

Now, that same daughter in the midst of all this pandemic would never say to me or to my wife because of that authority figure barrier there a little bit. But she said to her sister, who then said to us, that she said, I wish I could have the faith that mom and dad have, so that I can have the peace that mom and dad have. I bear testimony of that peace. And so I press forward in faith because with greater faith leads to greater confidence in the Lord and trust in his promises, which leads to greater peace in life. I bear that testimony to you. Dr. Topp, I don't know what to say other than we are so grateful. I know everyone listening right now is just saying, I'm so grateful.

I am so grateful for you. Thank you. Your time, your knowledge, and your testimony have been just, I just feel like I'm, I'm almost floating on my chair, John. How do you feel? Oh, wonderful. I couldn't be better. And thank you for your friendship and your kindness to both of us. Well, I view you as dear friends. And, and while I love to tease you and say that I am responsible for your superstardom, I honor you for your efforts to build the kingdom and bring people to Christ. That's what we're about.

If we like Alma, if we like Alma could sound the trump to all the earth, that would be my desire, too. I'll just have to do it in a different way now. I will. I'll do my podcast from from a purple flamingo floaty on the on the pool of my house in St. George. Retirement is sweet. That is that's a beautiful idea. The next time we bring you

onto the podcast, we'll be live from the pool side. From Ivan's Utah pool with my cold beverage on my pool floaty. It's a bring your own floaty party. We'll all be in the pool. Exactly right.

Solar powered electrical equipment. Exactly right. Solar powered electrical equipment. Exactly right. What a good day. What a good day we've had. We want to thank all of you for listening and joining us today. We're grateful for your support. We want to thank our producers, of course, Steve and Shannon Sorenson. We want to thank our production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen,

Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton, and Andrew Morton. We hope that you will join us soon on our next episode of Follow Him.ご視聴ありがとうございました