followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 46-48 : Dr. Ron Bartholomew Part I

Episode Date: April 30, 2021

Have you ever felt everything you tried was going wrong? In these sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Fantastic Four (Parley, Ziba, Oliver, and Peter) are called on a mission that may have seemed like a failure but was instrumental in creating a worldwide church. Join Hank and John with Dr. Ron Bartholomew as they discuss how the Church is open to all, how God doesn’t have any favorites, and why we all have spiritual gifts (and what they may look like).Shownotes: https://followhim.co/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John, by the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow Him. Hello, my friends. My name is Hank Smith. I am here with my marvelous co-host, John, by the way. Welcome, John. I'm so excited to hear the adjective each week. It reminds me of a church history cookbook, actually, called A Marvelous Work in a Blender. So thank you, Hank.

Marvelous Work in a Blender. Oh, I've never heard of that. I've known you for a long time and I have not heard that joke before. We are hosts of Follow Him. Thank you for joining us. We are excited to be here today. Every week we interview one of the church's great minds. And this week we have with us a friend of mine. We've been friends since the 1900s. His name is Dr. Ron Bartholomew. he's going to help us if anything in here is outdated. But he has been an instructor at the Orem Institute of Religion for a long time. So that's the institute, you know, as part of Utah Valley University, where he's degree from BYU and a doctorate in the sociology of education from the University of Buckingham in London, England. He's published in scholarly journals, articles, academic journals in the United States and Europe,

written several chapters in various published columns. His research interests include 19th century missionary work in Victorian England, as well as assorted topics in ancient scripture and church history. He and his wife, Kristen, have seven children and 11 grandchildren. And I just want to add, just get on Google and Google Deseret News, October 16th, 2020, or maybe just put Ron Bartholomew. There's a wonderful article in there about his personal experiences in the book of Job. And you will love that, and you'll get to know Ron a little bit better if you look that up. Ron, welcome to Follow Him. Thank you.

It's good to be here. Ron, we have had, you and I have had conversations over the last probably 25 years that have literally changed the way I teach, the way I think about the gospel. I'm sure that you have these type of conversations all the time. In fact, I think there are thousands of UVU students listening to this episode precisely because they saw your name on the episode list. So we are so excited to be here. Let's jump in and see what happens here. I'm excited to learn from you, Ron. We're studying this week sections 46 through 48 of the Doctrine and Covenants. They're all received in March of 1831. The church is almost a year old.

It's now made its first major move to Ohio. They don't know that they have a lot of major moves in front of them. As a result of four missionaries called to preach the Native Americans, Oliver Cowdery, Parley Pratt, Peter Whitmer Jr., and Ziba or Ziba Peterson, depending on who you ask. Joseph has lived in Ohio now for two months. Members are still coming from New York to join him. So Ron, now with that introduction, what have these first two months been like in Ohio and what leads up to these sections? Well, the first two months in Ohio have been cold. Joseph moved February 1st, 1831, so they've been cold. And he's been trying to gather the saints the best he can. Most of the saints won't arrive until May, so it's still March, and so most of the saints are still coming from New York.

But he's living with, he's moved into the home and store of the... Whitney's. Yeah, the Whitney's. And he is doing the translation of the, uh, uh, Whitney's the Whitney's and, uh, he is doing the translation of the Bible. So he's been very busy there in current Ohio, testing the Bible, getting known people new and waiting for the saints to come from New York. So a lot's going on. Yeah. Uh, and he's meeting all these converts. They've got to be so excited. How would you like that? Uh, John, you joined the church and then the prophet moves into your town, right?

That would be interesting. He's moving here. Yeah. So those of you missionaries out there, if you could just baptize full cities, maybe we'll move the church there. In addition to that, he was only 25 years old. Yeah. So a lot of people were surprised by that. He's a kid. Yeah. He's a kid.

Yeah, he's a kid. I remember thinking I was 25 and, oh, man, I had it. I knew what was happening. I look back going, what was wrong with you? John, what were you going to say? I like this idea of we've heard several times, is it three times so far? Go to the Ohio. It's like, and now there's so many there. I'm just wondering, this maybe was all

in the design of the Lord all along, but so many because of that mission to the Lamanites, that's what it was called. But the outcome was really all these converts in Ohio. Do you think the Lord moved them there because there were so many converts there, or did he want them there all along? I guess that's a hard one to answer. But is the bulk of members in Ohio now? The bulk of the members are in Ohio. But more than that, Ohio is going to become the headquarters of the church. So you've got two headquarters now. You've got Pennsylvania, which is the capital of the United States at this time.

It's before it's Washington, D.C. You've got Pennsylvania, and you've got Ohio, and you've got two things going on at the same time. You've got the United States of America being started, and you've got the church being started. And the church's capital will move to Salt Lake, but not for five years. And the nation's capital will move to Washington, D.C. But for the meantime, this is a place where we're starting a new a new nation a new not just a city a nation john that's not something we have talked about a lot on the podcast so far is what's happening in the country uh at the at the time uh it's andrew jackson is

the president of the united states uh so that's that's fascinating ron thank you for bringing that up i think john we that's something we Ron. Thank you for bringing that up. I think, John, that's something we need to keep incorporating is the idea of like, what's happening in the country? Because Ron's right. The United States does not look like the United States of 2021 by any means. And if we don't keep that in mind, we might lose sight. I remember Sister Susan Easton Black bringing up at the beginning of one of these, now there's 26 states in the United States. It's like, oh, yeah, whoa, yeah, that's true. And sometimes I love to show, I used to have this big fold-out book called A Timeline of World History or something. And I love to show the youth this long time of apostasy,

and then to show how quickly, once the United States, once the Declaration of Independence happened, Constitution, Bill of Rights ratified 1791, and 14 years later, I mean, in this tiny space on my chart, Joseph Smith born, Sharon, Vermont. And so I do think it's a good thing to talk about the United States coming to be religious freedom guaranteed. It didn't seem to go so well in Nauvoo and stuff, and how quickly those coincide. The other thing we can't forget is Joseph Smith is also doing his work on the translation of the Bible. That's right. He began to work on the translation of the Bible when he first got there,

and they're going to work on it for several years now. Right. And they kind of switched. I mean, at the end of section 45, it was kind of like, jump to the New Testament, because he had been doing Old Testament. That's right. Section 45 was all that Matthew 24 language. Yeah.

That's right. Let's jump right into these verses. Ron, what can you tell us about the Lord's message to the saints in section 46? Well, a lot. Find more than you want. Okay. Give us all of it, Ron. I love it.

The third quarterly general conference of the church was held at the home of Peter Whitmer Sr. at Fayette on January 2nd, 1831. So just in January of that year, they had the third quarterly general conference. And at that conference, they said that they've got to move to Ohio. So late in January, they made the trip, Joseph and Emma do, but with the slave provided by, you know, guess who, Joseph Knight Sr. Emma had moved seven times in the four years they were married and was six months pregnant and was not designed to move again. She didn't want to move, but she does anyway. Between the end of January and the middle of May, most of the New York Saints sold their possessions and migrated 300 miles to Curran, Ohio and Jason Arias for that, you know, to begin.

And this revelation was received on Tuesday, 8th of March, 1831. In the beginning of the church, while in her infancy, the disciples used to exclude unbelievers from their meetings, which caused them to marvel and converse about the matter because of what was written in the Book of Mormon, including 13th of 1822, which states, And ye shall not forbid any man coming unto you when ye shall meet together. And so they didn't know what to do. And so Joseph Smith inquires of the Lord and receives section 46 the day after he receives section 45.

And there he told the members of the church that they should allow everyone to attend their meetings, if they want to, anyone who's sincere. But they should not provide the sacrament for them. That's still for the members of the church. They should at least allow them to attend their meetings. That's interesting, because on our buildings right now is a big sign that said, visitors are welcome at the time.

So they were saying, no, you got to be a member if you want to come. But they changed it. This really changed that. But, you know, I can see that that's a legit question. We in earlier podcasts talked about them setting up a damming a little river to have baptisms and people come and mocking them during the baptism. Throwing rocks the whole nine yards. Just ruining the whole meeting. And you're like, you know, let's just have our members here because we want to have a lovely spiritual experience here. And you wouldn't want people coming and antagonizing you during the meeting.

I can see why this would be a good question to ask. It was. But despite their feelings of wanting to keep people out, the Lord says, no, bring them all in. We need to have everybody that wants to come be able to come. And so that's what they did. It's very, very inclusionary, you know, where the Lord's like, no, no, no, we're not, we're not an exclusive club here. All right. There's, we're not, yeah, you gotta, we're opening up the doors and visitors are welcome. I wonder if, I wonder if today we do that a little bit. We kind of create, we're kind of an exclusionary group and we don't say, hey, the doors are open to anyone. Hey, that's my pew. This if someone walks in that's not dressed up or that's not well-dressed or some other thing,

we shun them a little bit. And it's really a problem. Yeah, I think the Lord might say the same thing. Don't cast out anyone from your public meetings. And we can cast them out, maybe not by picking them up and tossing them out, but by the way we behave. Treat them.

Yeah, by the way we treat them. Treat them. Talk or don't talk to them. Sit or don't sit by them. Don tossing them out, but by the way we behave. Treat them. Yeah, by the way we treat them. Treat them. Talk or don't talk to them. Sit or don't sit by them. Don't welcome them. It's really a problem. Yeah. The church is not the temple.

You don't need a temple recommend to come to church. No. In fact, you don't need anything to come. You just need to come. Just come. Yeah. So after telling them to invite everyone to the meetings, the Lord says, in verse seven and eight, he commends them that they should have,

that they should do all things with prayer and thanksgiving and not be seduced by evil spirits or the devils, commands a man. And he brings up this idea of them being deceived by the devil. And that's what we really want to avoid. And so really the context for this revelation on the gifts of the Spirit is to teach them

how to avoid being deceived. Okay, so that's what leads to this next part, which is what section 46 is pretty much known for, is not being deceived. Seduced by evil spirits or doctrines of devils or the commandments of men. And so there's that beware right there in verse 8. Yeah, beware that ye are not deceived. And many that you may not be deceived seek earnestly the best gifts. So the reason that they're given the gifts is to not be deceived.

Very good. And they're a new church. I would imagine that where we are today, we've got pretty solid footing in a lot of these things, but being brand new, I mean, yeah, they're still not a year old. They might not have the anchors we have to know what's from the Lord and what's not. That's right. You know, when we talk about the burned over district of where Joseph Smith grew up, I mean, would it be fair

to say there's just still a great feeling of revival going on and people getting excited about things? And I've wondered if the gift of tongues isn't one of those that the Lord wanted to address right away. Probably. The saints were interested in getting all these extra gifts, and not so much the solid gifts. And so I think part of the reason for section 46 is to teach the saints, no, settle down. Let's seek after the things that will really make a difference in the end. I like that.

Settle down. Yeah. I think that's really part of the problem. Yeah. It's a little too much, a little too too excited which you know it with for a young church you would think that's probably a good problem to have rather than trying to get you to you know light a fire under view uh the idea is like okay okay this is good this is good everyone let's set up some boundaries so it's really nice is the lord starts right off with the the the

primary gift which is knowing him knowing that he lives that's the first gift, which is knowing Him, knowing that He lives. That's the first gift that He mentions. That's verse? 13 and 14. 13 and 14, okay. Yeah. To someone who is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, He was crucified for the sins of the world,

that's the first gift He mentions. And to others who are given to believe in their words, that they may also have eternal life and they continue faithful. And so I think the Lord wanted them to understand the first gift, the most important gift, is knowing that he is the Son of God and that he is the Redeemer of the world. That's the best place to start. You know, Ron, as I've talked to people who go through difficulties with doubt and faith, you know, faith crises and things, oftentimes I first remind them, do you believe in Christ, right? Let's get centered here on something. Because if we're not centered there with this first gift that you said,

this is what he lists very first, we can build off of that, right? We can build off of that. I think in this recent conference, President Nelson was kind of saying that same thing, right? It was focus your faith on Christ, build your faith on Christ. And I think more and more we're realizing the Book of Mormon's idea of a firm foundation of faith, right, to build on is this very first gift. I agree. Elder Lawrence Corbridge gave a terrific talk at BYU called Stand Forever, I want to say 2019. He talked about distinguishing primary questions from secondary questions, and it's just a really great talk. You can just go to speeches.byu.edu and find it. But I have my students read that for extra credit.

I want them to notice. There are millions of questions, and they're good questions. But make sure you focus on the primary questions first, and that's definitely one of those. Verse 13. It reminds me of what Alma said, I think it was to the people of Gideon, if I remember right. In in Alma seven, is that who's he speaking to people of Gideon? And he says, this is Alma seven, seven. Behold, there is one thing which is of more importance than they all. Right. There is one thing that is more important than all the other questions. And that is the time is not far distant that the Redeemer liveth and cometh among his people.

So to tie in here, section 46, verse 13, the Lord is saying, okay. That's the one thing. We're going to start with gifts right here is the gift to know that Jesus Christ is the son of God. He was crucified for the sins of the world. And then 14 is an interesting addition to that, don't you think? I think it is. I think it's probably one of the least understood verses in the scriptures. Verse 14 teaches, to others given to believe in their words, they may have eternal life and they continue faithful. I don't think everyone's supposed to have this magnificent

witness of Christ like the apostles have. I think most of us are just supposed to believe their words. And I think that's the important thing that will lead us to eternal life. John, you've talked to me about this before. What do you think about this verse? Because you were saying, we've got to make sure we understand this because some people might end up in a little bit of a nervous wreck about their testimony. Yeah, they may think they have to have the first gift. And I think we all want that, but to be able to believe on someone's words, I think a beautiful example of that is as we go through the Book of Mormon, Lehi has a testimony. I mean, look at this family as they start. Lehi has a vision, has a testimony.

Nephi kneels down. I need to know, is my father leading us right? You know, Nephi gets his answer. And then he just tells Sam, his older brother, and Sam just believes him. And when I see those two, I think, that's Nephi, that's Sam. And Sam was strong, but he just believed Nephi when Nephi told him. He just believed him. That's wonderful. And he had the gift to believe Nephi.

You're right. And it's fun to watch the others. Sariah sees her sons come back, escaping the dangers of Laban, and says, now I know that the Lord hath commanded my husband to flee into the wilderness. And it's fun to watch the family. And then, sadly, those that never really seem to ask in the same way. But so I, the thing I was talking about with Hank was we know that we were told not to rely on borrowed light, but I've always wondered, this is a spiritual gift. Is this borrowed light or is this a spiritual gift? Doesn't seem like borrowed light to me. So I'd love to know what you think about that, because for many of us, we listen, we watch General Conference, and we believe what we're being taught. And that's a gift.

Not only is that a gift, that's the gift that the vast majority of the members of the church have. And to live on borrowed light, so to speak, is, I think, a misnomer in that as long as you're depending upon another person's testimony, that's legitimate. That's as good as it gets. And I haven't seen God. I don't know that he lives, personally. But I certainly believe the apostles and prophets. My whole life I believed them. And I believe my testimony is as strong as theirs, even though it comes from a different source.

Oh, thank you. I'm thinking of 2013, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, the talk, Lord, I Believe. Yes. And how you always start with what you know. Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief. But remember the story of the boy that came up to him and said, well, I don't know if the church is true, but I believe it is. And Elder Holland said, I hugged that boy until his eyes bulged out.

And I reminded him that our articles of faith all start with I believe. Yeah, don't ever be embarrassed that you only believe, he said. And it's a beautiful talk. And I'm thankful that gift is listed in verse 14. It's the gift most members of the church have, or at least they're entitled to. And I have it, and I'm so grateful for it. I would say, John, that the idea of borrowed light is like, well, I'm not going to do anything. My parents read the scriptures.

Everyone reads the scriptures. Everyone prays. I will. I'll just rely on them. They can say their prayers. They can read I will. I'll just rely on them. They can say their prayers. They can read their, and I'll just do my thing. And then when, when it comes time, you know, major spiritual problems, I'll be, I'll be fine.

And you can't do that. You've got to do the work, right? You've got to pray. You've got to be reading. You've got to be, you know, trying to get close to the spirit. Living on borrowed light might be the idea of, I of, I'm not going to do the work. Yeah, kind of a, I want something for nothing, maybe. And so I'm hoping those are, I like where we're going here.

Those aren't the same thing. Believing on the words of others and borrowed light, that's not the same thing. It's not the same thing. I would say, too, to anyone listening who, you know, says, well, I believe. I believe, like Ron said, I believe in the words of the apostles and prophets. I believe the scriptures. And if anybody challenges that, like, oh, you just believe as if that's something like a step down from a testimony. That's not a step down from a testimony.

I think the Lord is clear here in section 46, that is a gift of the spirit. So if you say, you know what, I do believe, then you're acknowledging that you have a gift of the spirit and it's a beautiful thing. It's not a weakness. And I'm reminded of the verse, doubt not, but be believing. We're told to be believing. Let's get going here. Ron, take us through the gifts of the verse, doubt not, but be believing. We're told to be believing. Let's get going here. Ron, take us through the gifts of the Spirit. Okay, let's do it.

The next gift, so then the Lord starts listing the gifts. He talks about to know the differences of administration, as it would be pleasing to the same Lord, even as the Lord will, suiting His mercies according to the children of men. This is a difficult language for many people. Let me see if I can help you understand it just a little bit better. Okay. Elder Russell Pratt said the following.

I know he lived a long time ago, but this is really profound. He said, quote, Whenever the Holy Ghost takes up its residence in a person, it not only cleanses, sanctifies, and purifies him in proportion as he yields himself to its influence, It not only cleanses, sanctifies, and purifies him. In proportion as he yields himself to its influence, but also imparts him some gift, intended for the benefit of himself and others. No one who has been born of the Spirit,

who remains sufficiently faithful, is left destitute of a spiritual gift. So even if we don't understand what all the gifts are, we can still know that we have them. A person who is without a spiritual gift, has no the Spirit of God dwelling in him. And so I think the most important thing in these verses that we're reading is that we're giving them

so they can bless other people. The gift of verse 15 is giving us so we can bless others, not bless ourselves. And that's the important thing to remember in all this, is that we're given these gifts so that we can bless other people, not just for ourselves. I think verse 15 means this. It's the ability to understand church government and the different functions and roles of the offices of the church.

I think that's what it's really talking about. And understand where you fit in church government and the different functions and roles of the offices of the church. I think that's what it's really talking about. And understand where you fit in church government, how church government works, and the different functions and roles in the offices of the church. I think that's what verse 15 is talking about. I love that because I have noticed that in other people, not in me in any way, shape, or form, but I have had church leaders, both men and women who seem to just get the workings of how the church is supposed to work. Right. And, uh, and it just, it flows for them. They understand it. And I'm going, what I, you know, I like to teach, just stick me in a room and let me teach, um, versus, you know, ask me to run a program. And I, I, I, I'm going to have to earn that spiritual gift because I, John was a bishop and it amazed me that he could run, a person can, you know, run a ward.

That amazes me because I, I, I don't, I don't have that gift. Did that come to you, John? I don't know if you've been bishop as well or still president. And that's got to be a daunting feeling, but yet maybe we can have confidence in that the Lord can give you the gift of understanding how the church is supposed to work. You know, I'll tell you right now, I was inspired to call counselors that had gifts that were different than mine, that were detail administrative. And I was so blessed by that because I knew where I didn't have gifts and where I did. And I'm sure my ward could tell you where I didn't, but it was so nice to have that. And I love what Ron said. And I think it's addressed there in verse 12, that all may be profited thereby.

All the gifts come under this line, that they're for the profit of everybody. Of others. It's for a blessing of the whole church, not just for some individual to have this gift. And all of it comes under that heading. I think that's important. When I was the bishop, I literally received this gift, verse 15. And when I was released, I lost it. And I could feel it come and I could feel it go. And so I know that it's a real thing. I wanted to add, if you don't mind, section 46 has a list of spiritual gifts, but so does Moroni 10.

When we think of Moroni 10, we think, oh, Moroni's promise. But it starts with, after Moroni's promise, it has spiritual gifts. And one of the things that helped me understand the phrase, the differences of administration, in verse 15 there, is Moroni 10.8. And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God, for they are many, and they come from the same God, and there are different ways that these gifts are administered. Now, those are the same words just turned around a little bit, the different ways that the gifts are administered. Oh, okay, I think then I know what the differences of administration means. When I look at those two verses together, it's footnoted there. You'll see that down there, Moroni 10.8.'s important for us to recognize that people have other gifts and we have different gifts than they do. And we can benefit by all being together in a ward or a stake

so that we can have different people that have different, all the gifts. Sometimes we see people in the church try to stand up and say, oh, wait a minute, I've got all the gifts. But that's a very much a pride approach and it's a wrong approach. And the more humble approach is the approach of, well, I think I may have this gift,

but I'm sure you have these or the other gifts. And so I want to hang out with you just so I can benefit from the other gifts the way the Lord has blessed me to do so. I love this because I think one thing this can do, well, two things actually that I'm thinking that this can do is one, it can help us with our self-confidence because we don't need to start comparing ourselves to everybody else. I can't teach like so-and-so I can't, you know, I can't work with the kids like she can. I can't, you know, uh, and the other thing it can do is teach us to, uh, be more of a choir, right? Be more of a symphony together

and realize that one of the major purposes, I guess, of us getting together so often is so we can all benefit from each other's gifts. I think in addition to those two things, which are absolutely critical, I think the third thing is to realize that when you receive certain callings, a gift comes with a calling.

When you're released, you lose that gift. And so it's important for us to realize that when you receive certain callings, a gift comes with the calling. When you're released, you lose that gift. And so it's important for us to realize that when we receive a calling, we're going to receive a gift we haven't had before. And that's only there so we can bless other people with it. And so I think as we realize that we're part of this mix, that you described, Hank, but also that each calling comes with a separate set of gifts. We can bless the world that way.

I think that's important too. Ron, I really like this because people can then accept a calling with confidence. Yes. Knowing that the Lord's going to give them a gift. Whom the Lord calls, the Lord qualifies. Is that right? That's President Monson. President Monson.

Yeah. And I was thinking as hank was talking about a choir uh hank you've heard me use this marriage seminars over and over but harmony is being different together and uh it's so great to have some basses and some tenors and some baritones and some sopranos and some altos and all together it makes it beautiful. I would add too that sometimes there's not the jealousy of other people's gifts, but we don't like other people's gifts, right? They're not like me, therefore they shouldn't be working with the youth, therefore they shouldn't be bishop. I don't think like them. I've noticed that sometimes in the church, especially if we become super, super orthodox, we want to make sure everybody fits a certain

mold, right? And maybe, you know, as we approach the third century of the church, we could hopefully break out of that a little bit and let other people. You should hope so. I think it's also important to realize that the Lord is the one who decides who has what gift. People don't get gifts themselves. They receive gifts from the Lord. And so by recognizing the Lord as the founder, the source of all the gifts, helps us have respect for the people and also appreciate working with them.

Back in 2003, I think I was on a writing committee for young men, young women manuals. I was with Matt Richardson, as a matter of fact, that you both know. And one of the things they told us that just made me go, whoa, is that the majority of people who would be using these would be new converts who would be teaching from these manuals would have been members for less than two years. And I thought, isn't that fascinating? And there we go back to that idea. We better make sure the primary doctrines are getting out there. Because somebody might get a lesson manual and think, well, this is all the basic stuff. I want to go out somewhere else, out on the periphery or something. And it's another emphasis on primary doctors there. And these people who are teachers were just learning the gospel themselves, which was a sobering and kind of a humbling thing to think about. I've had, and I hate to admit this cause I admit something I do wrong every episode,

John, but, um, there have been times in my life where I've had an elders quorum president or a bishop or a young men's president when we used to have those. Um, and I thought that's not the guy I would choose, right? Like that's not, that's not the guy that I think could do the best job. And I think that's part of don't cast anyone out because you don't like them because they have a spiritual gift. Yeah. According to section 46. Or the Lord has something in mind. One of the stories I love to tell, Hank, you've heard me, is at being a 17-year-old in my ward and being called to be, and this is a phrase that some of you won't even know, junior Sunday school chorister. It would now be the equivalent of primary chorister.

At 17. At 17. And I looked right at the bishop and said, I'm a boy. And I had one younger sister, but I didn't know how to do little kids. I do now because I've had my own, but I was terrible at this. And all of the other junior Sunday school teachers were looking at each other like, who called him? And I was really bad. My mom was facepalm in the back on my first week. And we got home, and she had been a kindergarten teacher. She would have been a thousand times better than I was.

And she pulled me aside, taught me all these things about how to deal with the kids and how to have them stand up and do an activity song when they got fidgety, whatever. Well, long story short, I learned a lot from my mom. I did the best I could, but this is the point. Years later, I'm on a mission in the Philippines. We open an area and the first, we're meeting in our house because we didn't have a church. We opened this area, but other branches from around were a little bit closer to this one. Anyway, 35 people came to our first meeting. And as I'm sitting there, I noticed that most of them were children. And I thought, I know exactly what to do.

I know exactly what to do. And I taught them songs. I led like this instead of like this. Everything my mom taught me, I made a poster. I mean, all day I was like, I can't believe this. I know exactly what to do. And for, I don't remember how many weeks, I was handling the kids in primary and teaching them songs. Jesus came to John the Baptist. I didn't have a sing with me, the songbook they used to call it, but they were all in my head. I mean, I still marvel. Wow. You can tell just me telling you about it. I still marvel that, okay, Bishop Sager, you nailed it. Thank you. Because we wouldn't have known what to do at that point. That's a beautiful story. I love that story.

Yeah. And it's really fun to tell because I joke about all the funny things with little kids, but I thought, okay, no one in the ward would have said that was the right guy for the job. A priest? You're going to have a 17-year-old boy who's worried about being cool in front of the other priests try to lead the children in songs? You know, it was, oh, and I didn't feel cool. I promise, but. But the Lord, I like what you said there, that you don't second guess these callings. Yeah, you may think who called him?

Well, maybe Bishop Sager knew what was going on. And I believe he did. And I'm really grateful, really grateful because I had a blast with those wonderful little Filipino kids over there on my mission. That's wonderful. You got to wonder, John, if Bishop Sager's going, really? Is he getting this impression? Oh, I know. When I tell the story, I always say, Bishop, I'm a boy. And I always say, the bishop said, look, you weren't my first choice either, Buster. No, get in there and do it.

That is fantastic. That is good. The next verse, the next gift is also a little bit difficult to understand. And again, it's given by the Holy Ghost to some to know the diversities of operations, whether they be of God, the manifestation of the Spirit, or maybe given to a man or prophet with all. I think the best way to explain this is, it's the gift of discernment between God and the devil,

and thus avoid deception. And I think that's a gift that everybody can have, to know between God and the devil and avoid deception that way. How do you think that gift is manifest in someone? Or in just your opinion, how has it been manifest in you to know if something is good or evil? I think it has a lot to do with how you feel, with feelings. I think if you're in tune with the Spirit, you know if something's not right or not.

And I think that gift is one that I think I've been given because I've been able to help a lot of people know the difference between God and the devil. But I think some people don't have that gift and they need help from people who do. Yeah. I married someone with that gift and I'll be gung ho for something. And she'll say something like, well, just, I don't know. It just doesn't feel right to me. And I'm going, Oh no, you got to be excited. Here we go. We're going to move forward. And then lo and behold, I find out she was right all along. I can't tell you how many times that's happened. We've had, let's see, we've had 21 anniversaries. It's probably happened at least 21 times where I was all for something, ready to move forward. And she's just going, I don't feel it. And it took me a while to figure out. She has a gift that I don't

know. She has a gift, yes. I just don't want to go past verse 15. I just think this phrase is so helpful. The last phrase in verse 15, suiting his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men. A teenager growing up pre-internet is in a different place than a teenager growing up in 2021. That's for sure. And the Lord adjusts his mercies according to our conditions. And I'm grateful for that verse. I've used that a lot in counseling and letting us know, hey, the Lord knows the kind of world he sent us into. And he knows exactly the kind of world he sent us into. And he knows that my church, when I got my mission call from President Kimball with 3 million members is a little different than the one today with 16 million and the technological boom and everything. And so I'm grateful that

mercies are suited according to different world that we've been sent into. Thank you for bringing that up, John. I really appreciate that a lot. That's very helpful. Yeah. John, I was going to say that's a that's a life-changing thing yeah for parents to realize yeah that your kids are growing up in a different time and the lord adjusts yes his mercies towards them um it's not that beautiful yeah i i because there's some things that um that that teenagers face today that they get involved in that wasn't even on close to our radar. It wouldn't even have been an option, right? And the idea that the Lord knows what he's doing. That to me, John, I think that's a life-changing insight.

Oh, I love that verse. And Ron, it's funny because when we were teaching EFY, For the Strength of Youth was 19 pages long. The one published in 1990. And I like to show the youth that today's is 46 pages. And it addresses things that hadn't even been invented. Didn't even exist. Yeah. Didn't even exist. Yeah. Didn't even exist yet. In the 1990, in the 19, I have a 1965 For the Strength of Youth I found at DI, where it's just amazing how different this world is now.

So I'm grateful the Lord adjusts his mercies, suiting his mercy. I love that verse. According to the channel, man, that's so good. Okay, verse 17 and 18, they kind of play against each other. Verse 17 says, is given to some by the Spirit of God to know the word of wisdom. 18 says, to others given the word of knowledge that all may be taught to be wise and to have knowledge. I think there's a real key, the difference between wisdom and knowledge in the church. And some people have a lot of knowledge and some people have wisdom. I think the key is in verse 17, where it says, wisdom is given by the Spirit of God.

And I think that that's just something that we have to recognize. The difference between wisdom and knowledge. Because most people are going to read this, Ron, and think Word of Wisdom, Section 89. But that's not on. No. That's not at all. Right. There's no Word of Wisdom at this point in the church.

There's no Word of Wisdom. So the word of wisdom is being wise, right? Being wise. Yeah, right there, the Word of Wisdom is just a phrase. Like, here's a word to the wise. And it became a proper name for a section and for a doctrine later on. I really like this. There's a difference between wisdom and knowledge.

There's a huge difference. Some members of the church have knowledge, and you know they have knowledge by the way they talk in church and the way they answer questions and things. Other members of the church, by the Spirit of God, have the word of wisdom, and that is a different gift. I love to tell the youth, listen, if any of you lack information, sure, ask of Google. But if you lack wisdom, that is an entirely different question. And maybe knowledge is true knowledge here. Google will answer you something, and there's a chance it might even be true but uh knowledge true knowledge and

then wisdom um some people have never been to school but are very wise you know it's i love in verse 18 it says to another is given the word of knowledge that i may be wise to have knowledge so wisdom is mentioned in both verses oh i love that wise to have knowledge reminds me of um it reminds me a little bit of sydney rigdon versus joseph smith sydney had a lot of knowledge and he was a benefit to the church yes joseph joseph seems to from the spirit be getting a lot of wisdom yes i i think i put wisdom with good judgment sometimes. Yeah. We're going to see this play out in the next section, which we haven't got to yet.

But there's a lot of people in the church this time who have a lot of knowledge. But so many of them leave the church because they don't have wisdom. Oliver Cowdery, the Whitmer brothers, et cetera. And I think that having wisdom is really important. If you talk to be wise and to have knowledge is important if you're wise first man ron that again another life-changing idea here i think is um is okay saying which one do i have and which one do others have and i need to i need to be informed by them in the you know whatever if they're more wise. I'm, you know, because I'm a big information guy.

I love to read. I love to gather information. I know, Ron, you are too. Ron, you can tell me dates and names of people in church history that I'm going, how do you even know that, right? But that's not wisdom. That's not wisdom. I think wisdom is judgment.

It's not wisdom. That's not wisdom. I think wisdom is judgment. It's good judgment. And as you said, Ron, wisdom that is fed by and informed by the Holy Ghost, wow, that's the greatest kind. That's the kind of wise wisdom we need to have. I look around in the world we live in now, and there's so many people that claim to have knowledge. And they come to my house. They call me on the phone. They say, I'm leaving the church for this reason. I'm leaving the church. I've got wisdom. I've have knowledge. And they come to my house, they call me on the phone, they say, I'm leaving the church for this reason, I'm leaving the church, I've got wisdom, I've got knowledge. But they have no wisdom. And we've got to figure out a way to help the members of the

church go back to wisdom and not just knowledge, so that they'll stay faithful in the church and realize that God is the author of wisdom, not just knowledge. Oh, man. Where is it in 2 Nepphi when they are learned they think they think oh second nephi 9 second second nephi 9 is is one of those i call it 20 and 29 yeah i call it the ohs and woes chapter because there's a whole bunch of oh the goodness of our god oh the greatness of our god oh the plan of our god and then there's a bunch of woes oh there i'm gonna i'm gonna write section 46 next to this verse because there's a difference when they are learned they think they are wise yeah i think that's the same thing and it is not not the same thing man i think i've

learned too is having a having a worldly degree or something and to be learned it is good if right if they hearken good right if if if big if yeah big if man ron that's that's beautiful thank you please join us for part two of this podcast