followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 46-48 : Dr. Ron Bartholomew Part II

Episode Date: May 1, 2021

We return to discuss why spiritual gifts are given to every person, regardless of Church membership. And our valiant heroes (men and women) wonder if shaking, rolling, and other dramatic acts are from God. We discuss how God blesses us to rise to the challenges placed before us, and Dr. Bartholomew shares a powerful testimony of his love of the Gospel and the Lord, even with his Parkinson’s Disease diagnosis.Shownotes: https://www.followhim.coYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast

Welcome to part two of this in verse 26. All these gifts come from God for the benefit of the children of God. I think it's important to recognize if you have one of those gifts, the faith to heal, the faith to be healed, working miracles, prophecy, spirits, et cetera, I think it's important to realize that those gifts come from God for the benefit of the children of God. They come from God for the benefit of others, not for yourself. And you can lose those gifts just as quickly as you can receive them by showing off or

by somehow drawing attention to yourself instead of showing that the gift came from God for the benefit of the children of God. I have noticed as a teacher myself, there's a big difference between the lessons when I think I'm going to show everybody how much I know versus how can I bless the lives of the people in this room right now. Big difference between those two lessons. I usually walk away if I'm trying to impress deflated. If I'm trying to bless, I walk away excited. And it's not about me. Right. And that's, those are, that's the time that I go, it has to not be about you. It has to be about the people that

you're trying to bless. That's what it has to be about. That's, that's a good phrase, Hank to impress or to bless fall victim to these things. Um, uh, and we can just do a check, just stop and go, wait, wait, wait, what is my goal here? What's my motive using this gift? Your motive has to be to benefit the children of God, has to be to bless God's children. That has to be the motivation. Do you think, Ron, when the Lord is listing here 19, 20, 21, 22, all these different gifts, I wonder if he's saying there's lots, like he's not going to give an exhaustive list. Oh yeah. That's all. Yeah. Are you familiar

with other Ashton's talk about the gifts of the spirit? Now that was back in the 1900s, right? It was. So you'll have to remind some of our listeners. He, Marvin G. Ashton, who was a member of the Chrome of the Trail back then, gave a talk where he says this is not all the gifts. He listed some 30 more gifts that are gifts that we can give other people. Again, we have to give other people the gifts. Not for

ourselves, but for others to bless and help them. And his point was this list is not comprehensive. It's just the skeleton really. But we can bless other people in many different ways if we'll just look for ways to bless them. And that's the whole point. The point is, we have to look for ways to bless them, look for ways to be for the benefit of the children of God. I see it three times. I see it in verse 12, that all may be profited thereby.

I see it at the end of verse 16, that the Spirit may be given to every man to profit with all. And I see it in verse 26, all these gifts come from God for the benefit of the children of God. Really trying to emphasize that these aren't for your own individual aggrandizement. This is to bless everybody. Just to bless. That's what they're for. Yeah, three different times. I also see in verse 27 where bishops are specifically blessed with the gift of discernment, which is helpful.

I mean, what's one of the titles of a bishop? A judge in Israel. Judge of Israel, yeah. I also think it's important to point out in verse 29 that the person that's the head of the church, the president of the church, has every gift. And President Nelson definitely has displayed the many gifts that he's received since he's become the president of the church. And I think that's a humbling thing for all of us to recognize and to receive and to realize that he has all those gifts. Ooh, Ron, I'm glad you brought this up. I want to make two points.

Ron, let's go back to 27. John, how would you describe the bishop having the gift of discernment, yet bishops aren't perfect? They're going to make mistakes, right? We can't have the expectation that the bishop's going to know everything that's happening, right? And he's going to call the right person to every calling. And we can't have that expectation. So I think maybe he has the gift, and it's up to each of us, and it's up to the bishop too to do his best. Is that what I should, is that the message I should get?

Well, Ron can speak to this too, but I just remember how incredibly humbling and inadequate you felt when you had to make really big decisions about individuals, maybe in a membership council or something. And I remember one time knowing a membership council was coming and spending all night almost hearing the words of the song, who am I to judge another when I walk imperfectly? And it's not any job anybody would want, really. But I also remember getting impressions that are not what I would have thought. And I have a testimony that I got help in those times and discerned things I would not have discerned.

I can say it for sure. I'd love to hear what Ron has to say also, having had that calling. I remember two different times. For some reason, these two experiences come to mind. I hope it's okay if I share them. The first was I called the young lady to be the release day president. And she cried and cried and cried. She cried so loud in my office

that people out in the hall could hear. But she ended up being the best Relief State President I'd ever called. I remember another woman that I called to be the Relief State President. And she was planning to move, her and her husband had bought a, you should see where they live. They live in a multi-million dollar house up on the bench.

And she purchased this house. And I called her to be the recipient of the present. She was planning on moving. And she accepted the call and was also one of the best ever. And so I think Heavenly Father knows who has those gifts. Even if the people don't know that they have them, Heavenly Father knows that they have them. And He blessed them to rise up to the occasion

and to the office that they're called to. And those were two marvelous experiences for me. That's beautiful. We've just got to watch where we place our line because sometimes we expect church leaders to have the gift of discernment to a point where they should also be able to pick all the numbers of the lottery.

They should never get sick, right? Where all of a sudden having expectations of them that the Lord doesn't, the Lord never says they're going to know everything, that they're going to make every decision correctly. Because sometimes you call someone to a calling and then something happens and people will blame, you know, they'll say, well, why didn't that stake president have enough discernment? Yeah. The first principle of the gospel is not the perfection of your bishop. It goes right back to first principles. And I love Elder Holland's statement.

All the Lord has ever had to work with is imperfect people. It must be incredibly frustrating in it but he deals with it and then the best part and so should we um and we can suit our mercies according to the conditions of others you know the way the lord's being merciful to us that's reciprocity right there yeah i mean i sure hope my ward was merciful to me. I hope I don't sound wrong here. I agree with everything you've said, but I also believe in verse 27, I believe that the Lord does inspire the bishop to know who has what gifts and so he can make the callings.

And it's right. People have their agency. They may not choose to follow the Lord, but the Lord still gives the bishop the inspiration to us, the gift for the calling. And I think that we have to remember that as well. Yeah, I remember telling my wife when I got released that any future bishop that I knew and decisions they make, I would not dare to pretend to know all the things that he

knew about situations and things they were dealing with. I just thought, I'm never going to second guess that again, because I was aware of, of things that were happening and things that were confidential and, uh, feelings, uh, inspirations that I had that you can't possibly know all of the things that

your current Bishop might know and is dealing with. And it helped. There's no way you can know. Yeah. It helped me to be a lot more, Hey, you know, with whatever the current bishop says, I'm going to do what I signified I would do. This is not sustaining. This is signifying that you will sustain.

And I'm going to sustain him. Yeah. I feel bad for poor Edward Partridge, blazing the trail here, right? I mean, you get this section and all of a sudden here's another expectation for the bishop and he's got to be, okay, right? Dealing with a lot. No handbook, right? Is it fair to say that at first the bishop was more of a temporal affairs type of calling, like bishop storehouse and stuff like that? Yes. type of calling, like bishop's storehouse and stuff like that? Yes, when the call was first given, it was.

But it didn't take very long for the bishop to become like he is today. And we still have the presiding bishop who deals with a lot of temporal affairs. Temporal things, yeah. Presiding bishop, yeah, that's very much temporal. Bishop Partridge was very much the presiding bishop of the church. Yeah, that's what I thought. Not a bishop of the ward, yeah. Yeah, I think this is a fantastic discussion.

It says in verse 28, and it shall come to pass that he that asketh in spirit shall receive in spirit. What do you think the Lord means by that? Well, I think you have to ask as you're directed by the spirit. I think you can ask against the spirit or you can ask for the spirit. I think if you ask following the spirit, then you'll receive against the spirit yes for the spirit i think if you ask following the spirit then you'll receive in the spirit that's what i think it means yeah so this idea of when i'm praying i better realize i better pray for things that the spirit's directing me to pray for not necessarily you know because i can pray for a lamborghini every time i

pray look at verse 30 he that asketh in the Spirit asketh according to the will of God, wherefore it is done even as he asketh. I think if he asketh in the Spirit, it is done according to the will of God. And that's how you know. Anything else in section 46 before we move on? I found this quote

in the Millennial Star. It's George Buchanan. Most people don't even know who George Buchanan was. He was a member of the First Presidency. But he taught the following, quote, If any of us are imperfect, "'it is our duty to pray for the gift

"'that will make us perfect. "'Nor am I to say, oh, I can't help this, it is my nature. "'He is not justified in it, "'for the reason that God has promised to give strength "'to correct those things "'and give gifts that will eradicate them.'" I love that thought that we should pray for the gifts that will help us become more like

Heavenly Father. And I think that's a good way to end this section. Yeah. Wow. That is, that's special. It's a, who was it, John, that said, you know, which is the most important commandment? It's the one you're struggling with. Harold B. Lee.

Right? Yeah. Harold B. Lee. So, hey, let's, let's pray for the gift that will help you overcome the things that are your weaknesses right now. And then, you know, President Hinckley said, work on the big things. And then start working on the little things as we go. Man, I love that.

I'm thinking of the phrase, and now I'm forgetting, is this a Book of Mormon verse? Is seek ye earnestly the best gifts? Because it's not just find out what they are, but you can seek them. Yes, you should seek them earnestly. Yeah. Because this comes up in, is it 1 Corinthians as well? Yes, it does. Chapter 12, another place where we can talk about the gifts of the Spirit.

The Lord has put them all over the place. He wants us to know these things. I want to add two things. One is I wrote a book on happiness a couple of years ago. It sold dozens of copies, mostly to my mom, but I learned something. I learned something. There's a man named Martin Seligman who is doing some incredible work in positive psychology, a relatively new field. And he found, now i think you'll like this relating to what we just talked about he said there are three types of human happiness he says um one is uh gives you

a little bit of happiness that fades quickly the next one is a more happiness and it doesn't fade as quick and then the next one is he he said, is one that is sustaining, right? This happiness is sustaining and it lasts, you know, it's a higher form of happiness. So here's number one. He called it, he just calls it pleasure. Pleasure is a form of happiness and it quickly fades like smoke, right? He said two, the next higher form of happiness is engagement. Now, listen to what he said engagement is. And you'll see that I think he's catching up here to section 46. Engagement or flow, he says, is when you use your specific unique gifts, he calls them, frequently, that you'll get to a point where you just, you feel engaged, right? That people will

say, oh, time just flew by for me, right? It's when you're using your gifts, he called them gifts, daily. And then he said this, the highest level of human happiness is meaning, where not, you're not only using your gifts every day, and you're not only experiencing, you know, the small pleasures of life, but you're using your gifts to a cause that is bigger than yourself. I love that. And he is right in line here with what the Lord is saying, right? Use your gifts, use it as regularly as you can and use them to benefit something that is bigger than yourself. Yeah. So, um,

I was, I thought, uh, Dr. Seligman had stumbled across, uh, some beautiful, uh,

ideas here that were in the doctor and covenants, uh, a couple, you know, 200 years ago, but still, uh, I,

I loved it. Uh, I love that he found that truth. Thank you for sharing that. I think that's wonderful. Yeah. And then I wanted to share one other thing and I wanted to see what you all thought about this. This is a brand new book out

by my friend, Patrick Mason. It's called Restoration. And he wrote something about spiritual gifts in here that I just wanted to share with you. I thought it was so profound. He said, what if we were to extend the principles outlined in section 46 to consider the ways in which God has graced not just individual women and men, but also whole cultures and communities with special gifts to be shared for the benefit of all. begin to see how god has endowed various groups right all over the world including other religions with particular gifts and callings that are designed to bless the world he goes on to quit yeah i thought that was just i thought it was an excellent insight that's a great point he quotes the 1978 first presidency statement uh that we've talked about here before, John, with, I think it was with J.B. Haas, that the first presidency says in 1978, the great religious leaders of the world, such as Muhammad, Confucius, reformers, Socrates, Plato, received a portion of God's light. Truth was given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.

So I really thought, yeah, I really thought it was a beautiful idea. Yeah. A beautiful statement that other religions, other cultures have gifts to offer us. I thought that was a beautiful, a beautiful thought. And we can only benefit from them if we recognize that they have them and are willing to receive them. Man. Well, we talked with Brent Topp about holy envy and that idea of looking at another faith and seeing,

I really like that, you know. And I'd like to incorporate that more into me personally. But that's a mind-expanding thought. Yeah. I was impressed by that, and I was excited to share it with you. Ron, let's move on to section 47. It's a revelation to John Whitmer. We've talked about the Whitmer family before. I don't know if we've necessarily talked about John individually. He's being called here as a church historian. So what do we know about John Whitmer? What do we know about this calling? Well, unfortunately, John left the church. John was one of a kind.

He was asked to replace Oliver Cowder, who was an excellent church historian, while he was one. He had previously served as a scribe for Joseph in various different settings. When he was called to be the church historian, he said, quote, I would rather not do it, but observe that the will of the Lord be done. If he, the Lord, desires it, I desire that I would manifest it to Joseph the seer. So he will not be the church historian unless he receives a revelation from God. Joseph therefore inquired of the Lord in the same day as section 46, verse 46, section 47.

They were seen the same day. In section 47, verse 4, it says, inasmuch as he is faithful. Inasmuch as he is faithful. Inasmuch as he is faithful. That's the problem. He began his history the day after Oliver Cary left off, June 12, 1831. He was later excommunicated for apostasy and refused to give his history to Joseph for Sydney. They asked him for it, and he wouldn't give it. It eventually fell into the hands of the community of Christ Church,

and then, of course, we ended up with it, with Joseph's Papers of History, Volume 2. It has 19 chapters and is only 83 pages long. After he was excommunicated, he had three more chapters, 15 pages, exonerating himself and placing the blame for his excommunication on the saints. And he died outside the church. And so Section 47 is really a sad section, no matter how you look at it, because the person was called,

didn't do a good job. And what he did do, he gave to the earliest church and died out of the faith. And so it's just really a sad story there for John Whitmer, I think. Yeah, me too. I have come to such a great love for some of these early saints

who sacrificed so much, you know, I names like the Whitmers that we kind of a discount. Uh, and it's just, it's not necessarily, we should be judging them is that it's just a sad, it's a sad story because the Whitmers were such an important, um, and crucial part in our beginnings. Uh, and I, I hate to see, you know, this falling out between the Whitmers and Joseph and then, you know, not returning like Martin Harris returned, like Oliver Cowdery returned. John Woodward does not return. He does not return. I hate to see that.

You know what, if I can kind of get a broad application from this, I just love that the Lord gave revelations to James Coville in 39, probably knowing what would happen. Here, John Whitmer, probably knowing what would happen, but gave them a glimpse of their possibilities and of their potential. And I think that's what patriarchal blessings are. The Lord doesn't just say, nah, you're not going to amount to much. But he gives you this vision going to amount to much. But He gives you this vision of your potential and possibility. And I'm thankful that He does that. Gives you something to live up to, but tells you, you can do this. This is your capacity. And man, it's just a broader way of looking at the whole thing, maybe. Yeah. The Whitmers were definitely a key part of the beginning of the church.

And John Whitmer was a key part. He was Joseph's scribe. He was later the scribe for the whole church. So they aren't bad people per se. They just took wrong turns. And I think there's something we can learn from people that take wrong turns as well. No matter how good you get started off, if you take a wrong turn, you end up in the wrong place. And John Whitmer is an example of a person who took a wrong turn. He could have easily been one of the leaders of the church for the rest of his life, but he took a wrong turn and died in Missouri and outside the church. Are there any of the Whitmers that remained faithful or came back? How sad? No. Not even Peter Sr.

Well, he passed away, but the ones who lived, none of them stayed faithful. I was going to say, a couple of them passed away in Missouri before the family leaves. Yeah. So they died. You would say they died faithful in the church. But yeah, I think Oliver is the only, he's an in is the only one who returns yeah he comes at the end of his life yeah at the end of his life we can learn a lot from that my friends we can learn a lot from that it's important to endure to the end no matter what happens to you at the risk of being personal it's okay if it's okay if i'm personal for a second please please i had no idea this would happen to me. I had no idea that I would fall victim

to Parkinson's disease and et cetera. But I bear my witness to you that I will never fall away. The church is true. I'm not true. The church is true. And I'm staying with it to the end. And I'm so grateful for the opportunity

I had to bear my testimony today of that because there are people who did not stick to the end. And I'm so grateful for the opportunity I had to bring my testimony today of that because there are people who did not stick to the end and they've left the church and that's really a sad thing, but we can learn from their lesson. We can learn lessons from them. Thank you, Ron. Ron, that was beautiful.

Ron, I know you're a lover of history. What would you say the importance of the records that we have? Because just because John Whitmer leaves doesn't mean the history stops. We keep a pretty good history. How important has that history been to us now, almost 200 years later? Wow. That question is a long answer. I'll try to answer as quick as I can. One of the blessings that I've had as a member of the church,

I've had a chance to review some of the volumes of the Joseph Smith Papers. One of the volumes that I had a chance to review for BYU Studies and write a review for it was the volumes on the histories. And we can learn as much about the histories from the people that wrote them as we can from the histories themselves.

Not all the histories are the same. Not all are complete. They all have problems. They all have, John Curl, for example, wrote a history. He lit the church. John Roe wrote a history. He lit the church. And so we can learn two things.

We can learn from the histories themselves. We can also learn from the people who wrote the histories, what to do and what not to do. And I think that has been a blessing to me, just to be a short answer for now, of the histories of the church. And can I just ask you a personal question? Why do you love history so much? Because I've heard you present on, I think it was some polygamous families that you presented at one time. I've heard you present on the revelations. I've heard you present.

And I know you're a lover of history. Why do you love it so much? Because there's so much we can learn from it. Those people all passed away. We can learn from their mistakes. We can learn from the good things they did. We can learn from the bad things that they did. Without having to do it ourselves.

And so I feel like I'm a better person because of the histories that I've read and studied. the good things that they did, we learn from the bad things that they did, without having to do it ourselves. And so, I feel like I'm a better person because of the histories that I've read and studied. I like the Book of Mormon phrase that the plates would enlarge the memory of the people. And I think history has a way of enlarging our memory. We can learn the lessons without going through the hard part if we really try. It can enlarge our memory and help us be wise instead of just knowledgeable. Yeah, I'm 100% with you, John. The history is so important. And I've heard it said before, if you want to be remembered, keep a journal.

If you want to be remembered by anyone after you're gone, keep a journal. That's a good point. Yeah. Keep a record. Keep a history. And we still have this church historian role, right, Ron? We do. The church historian now is always a general authority for a good reason, because it's such a critical part of the gospel for the reason you just said.

And so the general authority who's called to be the church historian is always very solid and very educated and very able to do all the work, but he's also a general authority, and I think that's important. So the church historian today is Elder LeGrand Curtis, Jr. I love that this calling given in 1831 is still with us today. I just, I love that. I just think there's something beautiful there. What I used to think as a kid about, because President Kimball, the president of the church as I was a teenager, emphasized keeping a journal a lot. And I always figured that if our whole lives are going to be recorded in heaven

and the angels above us are silent notes taking, well, somebody's writing it down. Why do I have to write it down? And I can see now that putting it down yourself can bless you as you think about it and you learn the lessons from it. And maybe you do this too, Hank, but I make my students keep a reading journal during our class because it goes into a different place in your short-term and long-term memory if you actually write down what you were learning and you'll retain it for longer.

And I was just going to mention Wilford Woodruff and how important he was as a history keeper that I guess he heard Joseph Smith say once, I remember in the movie Mountain of the Lord, he says, well, since I heard Joseph Smith say, you know, we should be a record keeping people, I haven't been able to go to bed before I wrote down the events of the day. Does that sound familiar, Ron? Yes. And Wilford wrote many, many multiple volumes of journals. Yeah.

And we can learn a lot about the history of the church from his journals. So when I went to get my marriage recommend, I went to see my wife's stake president, and his name is Wilford Bruce Woodruff. Oh, wow. And that was pretty fun because we got talking about Wilford and he has, as a direct descendant, access to all of those journals. I think the church keeps him, but he has access to them. Yeah, that's awesome. And I was also going to mention my beloved stake president who set me apart to go on a mission was George I. Cannon.

Wow. beloved stake president who set me apart to go on a mission was george i cannon wow who who served in the 70 after that but he set me apart for my mission so my goodness that was pretty cool to say george george i cannon set me apart that was fun did they just go through the alphabet with that do they just never well they get they got to q then it started over. Yeah, I don't know. Go around to the horn. A tall, wonderful man, my stake president. Wow. That's awesome. And there's different ways to keep a record, right? Some of us maybe are overwhelmed at the idea of opening up and writing down.

Well, a lot of people type their journal now. And you can even record audio. You can just record audio. Audio. Video. You can record. I do this a lot with my kids where I'll say, oh, this is a journal moment. And I'll get my phone out and I'll record it.

Okay, what's the date today? Hey, what are we doing? You know, and I think we're keeping a record. And, you know, those things, I have a niece who's uploading tons of stuff of my mom and dad to the family history websites and let them house it, you know, let them store it. But now all these photos are up there and a lot of, like they say, a picture tells a thousand words. So history in photos is up there, which is kind of a nice thing. What is the name of that? The app is called family tree and you're exactly right you can upload pictures audio files uh to to um anybody's record here and i've i've uploaded a lot to mine and i i just i trust that those servers are double and triple yeah they're backed up

they're in a granite vault at little cottonwood Canyon, right? I love the little point on this, on my family tree, where I can go to my children. It says, add spouse. I'm like, oh, good. I can do this. For my daughter, I'll choose John, by the way, son. It'll be perfect. Oh, brother. Ron, in section 48, the Lord is actually talking about buying land, I think, for anticipating other members that are coming.

Could you tell us some things about section 48? I'd love to. Thank you so much. And on March 9, 1831, some members of the Cozal Venge were able to sell their acreage so they could relocate to Ohio, which was a happy thing for everybody. They were from Cozville, New York. On March 10th, 1831, as the time drew near for the brethren from the state of New York to arrive in Ohio, there was no preparation made for the reception of the saints from the east.

They didn't know where to put them. Bishop Edward Partridge, being anxious to know something concerning the matter, he asked Josephus to receive a revelation, and Josephus received section 48. In verses one to three, the Lord uses the phrase present time three times, implying that Ohio would only be a temporary church center, which of course we know for a fact that it was. In verse four, he says the city, New Jerusalem, which is to be built with the sacrifice of the saints, is not in Ohio.

It's somewhere else. The church first was about the city from the book of Ether in the book of Mormon. And two of his previous phrases, Revelation,ations, Josephus received section 28 and 42. But they're really excited to move there. And the exact location of the city had not been revealed yet in verse five. But three months later, the Lord did tell them it was in Missouri, that was the place for their gathering.

And he didn't reveal the specific location as being in Jefferson County until they got there in June of 1831. So imagine you're a member of the church. You've just moved from New York to Ohio only to find out that Ohio is a temporary place and you're really moving somewhere else a thousand miles away in Missouri,

which you won't find out until July. So they move in May, they don't find out until July that they're gonna be moving to Missouri, which you won't find out until July. So they move in May. They don't find out until July that they're going to be moving to Missouri. But it's a tough, tough time for the members of the church because they're going to make Secession 48 a, quote, a hallowed place, a special place, but it's a temporary place. And that's the message of Secession 48. Yeah, and Ohio does become a temporary place for them. I wonder if the Lord says in verse five, the place is not yet to be revealed. And a side

note, you probably would be upset with me. So we'll, yeah, we'll let this, we'll let this just, because there's, they're saying, oh, I hope it's not as far away as New York to Ohio. And the Lord's going. It's three times as far. It's a lot further. And when you come into the valley, you're going to go, this is the place? Oh, you're talking about Salt Lake. Yeah. I'm talking about another one.

And that's kind of a sad look at what they had to go through when building homes and farms that other people would occupy at some point. And sometimes having to sell them for pennies on the dollar. Who was it in Nauvoo that swept the room and then left the broom by the door? Yeah, that's Wilford Woodruff. Yeah, knowing that, okay, bye. Just built this beautiful place and now got to go. The Saints did a lot of moving those first years. did a lot of moving that's rough and uh missouri is a pretty good place so is navoo but salt lake is terrible for when they first got here was awful

especially for people who'd lived in the east yeah yeah right and going this is desolate um i remember growing up in utah thinking it's not a desert look we've got all these trees and then i went east i went oh that's what i know i felt the same way you look down in a plane and it's like you have to clear the land of trees to do anything and here you gotta plant trees which which die if you don't water them. Yeah. Hank. It's different.

John, can I make a couple of points here, please? Absolutely. That'd be okay. First point is, it's amazing how much the saints do in current religion. They're only going to be there for five years. They build the gristmill. They build homes. They build a temple. they really work hard the five

years they're there and they really make a difference i think that we have to forget that as a point of peace for them moving to navoo and into salt lake so they had a lot of practice building and leaving building and leaving building and leaving and that's something they had to have a lot of practice doing the second part i'd like to make which is even more important is um if you go to kirtland today it's just beautiful it's spectacular and it was beautiful for them too and so think about how difficult it would be to leave these beautiful places one after another new york ohio uh missouri new york new york uh uh navoo then navvoo. And then to go to Salt Lake, these people really sacrificed a lot. And I think that unless you've been there, you can't appreciate how much they really had to sacrifice.

Yeah. So I just want to bear my testimony that I believe these saints were really called of God. They knew how to move, they knew how to build, and that did them well when they came to salt lake and i i bear my testament that's true and i say in the name of jesus christ amen amen i love that ron that's that is beautiful um i love this i i i as we're going through the doctrine covenants this year and i've taught the doctrine covenants before so um i have I'm just coming to a new, uh, understanding of, of how much these men and women, these families were called to do. Uh, and it gives me, it gives me strength and it offer, it also gives me responsibility.

I feel like to, to carry on the work they started. I'm not going to be the one who, uh, I, I'm not going to be the one who, I don't want to be the one who falls off and doesn't build on this glorious chain they began. I feel a responsibility to my pioneer ancestors, not even just the ones I'm related to, but these early, early ones of these early sections. That's awesome, Hank, because I feel like there's many members of the church

that don't feel that way. They don't understand the Dr. Cummings, what's that, you know, kind of a thing. I think it's critical that we teach the people what happened so that they can appreciate the sacrifice that went before them so they can know who they're following, whose footsteps they're following, so they can become more like those people that they don't really know a lot about. And so when I teach these sections,

when I teach 47, 48 particularly, I make sure that people know that these people gave up a lot, especially in verse 46, 48. They gave up a lot for me to have what I have today. And I need to build on that. And instead of just, I need to appreciate it and be thankful for it. Instead of just, you know, receive it. Yeah.

Oh, Ron, that is so good. Because it reminds me of 1 Nephi 1, verse 1. I, Nephi, he could say king of kings. He could say builder of boats, crosser of oceans, right? He says, I, Nephi, having built upon a, you know, goodly parents, I have good parents. And we could also say, you know, I, Hank, I, Ron, I, John, having been, come from awesome pioneers, right? From awesome ancestors. And that kind of placing, I have a responsibility to these people. I was talking to the president of the Wyoming stake that did so much of the temple work for these people, realizing that most of them, they moved from New York to Missouri to Nauvoo to Ohio to Salt Lake without receiving their temple ordinances.

And that even gives me a greater feeling for them as I realize, wow, they did all that without receiving their temple ordinances, and wow, we've been without the temple for a year now because it's been closed, and I just am aching to go back, but those people, they never even saw a temple in their lifetime because the temple in Salt Lake wasn't built until the St. George Temple was born in 1877. So I don't know.

It's just, to me, well, they're awesome. I loved just Ron earlier when you said, I'm going to, I will be in this faith. And I feel that strength from them too. I, you know, as they continue forward, I continue forward and I pass it on to the next generation. Yeah. Yeah. I was just going to say, the more we've studied this together, Hank, and it's been such a privilege and to be with you and these amazing guests that we have, the more my own problems and concerns have kind of diminished. And I just think, look what they did, look what they're going through. And I love things like that, that helped me reduce a lot of my problems to kind of first world problems, you know.

Yeah, it gives you perspective. Yeah. And another thing I wanted to add is that I watched, I think I have watched the, I think it was the Sunday morning session, the I'm a Child of God, the very international session of General Conference. I think I've watched the I Am A Child Of God thing about 10 times, watching these saints from all over the world singing in their own language and seeing them as pioneers that have maybe, if not literal descendants of these pioneers, but what they're doing and what they're sacrificing has just been, I watched it over and over and just think, man, I love these people, never met them, but I'd love to. And to say that I bet they're making sacrifices to come into a relatively new faith for them in a country where it's not well established.

I just felt a lot of love for them. That's beautiful, John. I felt the exact same way. Right when they started, I thought, oh, man, grab the Kleenex. I'm not going to make it. Beautiful, just beautiful. These people were so poor, yet the Lord says three times in this section. In verse 3, he says, buy for the present time.

And then verse 4, save all the money that you can. In verse 6, purchase the lands. These people were asked to sacrifice in a way that they, I don't think they could appreciate because, that we can appreciate because we have so many things around us, so much stuff. And yet they were asked to save, save, save, bye, bye, bye. And I just can't imagine how much they had to sacrifice.

I just wanted to bear my testimony to that as well. And I say in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. That is beautiful. In my book that I quoted earlier of my friend Patrick Mason. He says, um, despite the Lord's consistent and stern mornings, we today have largely been seduced by the gods of affluence and ease. Uh, and, um, wow. These, these early people, they have not, they were not seduced by the gods of influence or of affluence or ease. So Ron, I have a last question for you. You're a gospel scholar. You've been studying and teaching these things for, I want to say, how many years now?

36 years. You've been studying and teaching these things for over 35 years, full- time. This has been your job full time. You know as much as there is to know about Joseph Smith and these early saints, both their highs and their lows. You certainly know as much as any critic of the early saints of Joseph Smith would know. Yet here you are faithful. So I would love to hear just my friend Ron's personal thoughts on Joseph Smith, the restoration, and what this has done for you personally. Wow. Thank you so much for asking. I grew up with that testimony of Joseph Smith. I just couldn't wrap my mind around him.

I even got hard to teach seminary without having a testimony of Joseph Smith. So it made me study harder and harder and harder. And I read and read and read and read, books and books and books and books. Well, I finally, by the time I finally got my testimony of Joseph Smith, I can still remember where I was standing when the Spirit just hit me.

He was a prophet of God. And since then I've stayed more of course. And I just want to bring my testimony. I know for myself beyond a shadow of a doubt, Joe Smith is a prophet of God. He was the Lord's prophet. He was an imperfect man, but I don't focus on that. I focus on the great things he did in 38 years of his life. He was amazing.

Joe Smith had a way of tuning into the Spirit that no one that I'm aware of has had yet. He was just able to tune into the Spirit of the Lord and to know what to do and to know the right thing to do all the time. And he learned from his lessons, he learned, if he made a mistake, he learned from the lesson and never did it again. So I just want to bear my testimony

that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. As far as the church goes, I know there's a lot of other churches in the world today and our church isn't very big compared to most of God. As far as the church goes, I know there's a lot of other churches in the world today, and our churches are very big compared to most of them. But I know for myself, beyond a shadow of a doubt,

this church is the church of God. This is the way the Lord wants us to live. I pray to you in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Amen. Ron, thank you. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for your time. Thank you for imparting unto John and I and our listeners of your incredible knowledge and experience.

Can I say one more thing, Hank? Please, please. I just read a book that had 18 chapters in it, each one written by a different person, critiquing Joseph Smith. And every single person had this or that to say about Joseph Smith. And my question to them is this, my question that they don't answer themselves is this,

what would Joseph Smith say about the chapters that they wrote about him? What'd he say about the critiques they made of him? It's really easy to critique someone who's passed away and they're in the grave, they can't talk back. But if Joseph Smith were here, what would he say about the critique they made of him. It's really easy to critique someone who's passed away and they're in the grave, they can't talk back. But if Joseph Smith were here, what would he say? I wanna bear my testimony that I know he's a prophet of God. I don't care what anybody writes, I don't care what anybody

says, he's a prophet of God and everything that people write and say fits into that if they are telling the truth. And there's so much out there that's anti-negative right now that's so bad. After General Conference, my daughter and I went online and saw the different comments we made about General Conference. I just couldn't believe there wasn't one positive remark about General Conference. But there is for me.

I know for myself, Russell M. Nelson is a prophet of God. I know for myself that the people that sustain him are chosen by the Lord. I know for myself that the church is true. And I say it in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. Amen. Ron, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, goodness. I wish I could tell my 20-something old self when I first met you, hold on to this guy. He is something else. John, we have another episode of Follow Him in the books. I think I learned some things today that I honestly are going to impact me for the rest of my life. It's a, every, every time we get together, it's a new appreciation. Um, another layer of testimony. And, uh, in this case, uh, a renewed friendship. Haven't seen Ron for a long time. So, so good to see you, John. Really great to be with you. We love you. Yeah, we do. We do. We are, we are a team. We want to thank Dr ron bartholomew for coming today we want to thank all of you for listening we're so very grateful for your support we want to thank our

producers steven shannon sorenson our production crew david perry lisa spice jamie nielsen kyle nelson will stotton and andrew morton we hope that you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him.