followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 49-50 : Dr. Lili De Hoyos Anderson Part I

Episode Date: May 8, 2021

What happens when new members come from different faith backgrounds? Dr. Lili de Hoyos Anderson joins us to discuss how the Lord, through Joseph Smith revealed the truth about eternal marriage, the Second Coming, and other doctrines as the Saints question their previous belief systems. You’ll love Dr. Anderson’s practical marriage advice, learning about Parley P. Pratt’s fiery personality, and gain a little more understanding about the Shakers and their influence on missionary work.Show notes: https://followhim.co/episodesYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John, by the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. My friends, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am here with my spectacular co-host, John, by the way. Welcome, John. Thanks. I'll try to be a spectacle today. You are spectacular. Where's my glasses? Hey, we want to remind everybody that you can rate and review our podcast. You can find us on Instagram, on Facebook. I think everybody knows the routine by now, but I have to say it every week. We are blessed to each week have one of the great minds of the church with us. And we have another one today. Tell us who we have.

Yes, we do. We have today Lily DeOoyo Anderson, who is a first-generation American. Her mother is French and her father is Mexican. And when she started high school, both her parents began teaching at BYU. So the family moved to Provo and she graduated from Provo High School. Sister Anderson attended BYU and graduated in sociology and social science runs in the family. Both her parents are retired professors of sociology and her husband, Chris Anderson is also a social worker with church family services. After almost 20 years of being a full-time homemaker,

Sister Anderson completed her own master's in social work degree. And she's a licensed clinical social worker, has a full-time private practice in individual marriage and family counseling. And later she completed a PhD in marriage, family and human development at BYU. And for several years taught part-time for the school of family life. Now here's my favorite part. The Andersons have eight children and they are affectionately referred to as the alphabet kids because their names are Adam, Bethany, Caitlin, Dominic, Eden, Faith, Graydon, and Harper. You can call everybody to dinner in alphabetical order.

That's awesome. Mostly sounding off in the van to make sure we have everybody behind. A, B, C, D. That's right. We did that a lot. I will say, we did not know if we were having boys or girls back then. So if Adam had been a girl, he would have been Bethany. If Bethany had been a boy, she would have been Jacob.

Caitlin would have been Saul. We weren't thinking alphabetically. And then a friend called me when our third was born and said, do you realize you have an ABC? And I was kind of shocked because I'm not cute like that, you know? So I was kind of shocked because I'm not cute like that, you know? So I was really surprised. It was hard not to think of D names. If we had had a girl, we may not have continued because we couldn't really come up with a

D name that worked for us. But we wanted to use the name Dominic. So when we had a fourth that was a boy, we named him Dominic and we were stuck. We had to keep the rest. Yeah, you have to do it at that point. Didn't want them to feel disenfranchised. Now, the truth is these eight kids were born in 12 years. And when we were expecting our eighth child, I told my husband, seriously, I said, you know, I think we should name this child Hallelujah.

And it would work. I said, we could call him Hall if he's a boy, which is a guy's name, or Hallie if it's a girl. This could really work. My husband was wiser than I, and he said, let's not give him a good reason to resent us right off the bat. We called him Harper instead, which is a name that's really important to our family. But anyway, the long story short is that I still look at him sometimes and think, hallelujah. Yeah. We're grateful. I bet.

Yeah. So now we're into collecting grandchildren, and our 36th is due on May 2nd. Our cup runneth over. We still have two single kids, so who knows? I think John and I were talking the other day about naming the last one like Noah Moore, right? Noah Moore. Noah Moore Smith. Noah Moore, by the way. In case anybody's wondering,

Noah Moore. All right. Well, let's get started in this week's Come Follow Me lesson, Lily. We're studying sections 49 and 50. Let's start in section 49. The heading says that this revelation is given to Sidney Riggin, Parley Pratt, and Lehman Copley. We're also introduced to a religious group called the Shakers. We've talked about Sidney and Parley in a couple of other episodes, but this is the first time we've ever heard of Lehman Copley or the Shakers. And we can review, of course, Sidney and Parley as much as you'd want. The repetition is good for us. What can you tell us about these men, this religious group, and what leads up to this section? Well, I would like to say that Parley Pratt is a favorite of mine. I mean, these men are all

so wonderful, and it's just a delight to have this window into their incredible parts of the Restoration. So I'm grateful for all of them. I do have a soft spot in my heart for Parley. He was a fiery temperament, as we know, and this section 49 actually gives us a glimpse into that fiery temperament. I taught early morning seminary in Vegas for five years. And when I taught seminary one year there, it was the sesquicentennial of the pioneer advent into the Salt Lake Valleys. And they asked us to incorporate pioneer stories along with our curriculum because, you know,

we were trying to sort of celebrate that wonderful time. And that was a really great challenge for me because I don't have any personal pioneer ancestors. I mean, I've got French, I've got Mexican, but I don't have anybody who crossed the plains. And I always have felt a great love and respect and appreciation for them. But that year, I actually got closer to them. And I felt like they were, for the first time, I felt like they were my spiritual ancestors too, as I saw the hardships that they had gone through. And I thought of the hardships in my own life. And I saw that in their writings, they had learned the same lessons I learned, which is how it always is,

right? The Lord is so kind and truth is all circumscribed in one great whole. So I just, I felt such a kinship with them. And Parley was one that I really became close to. I read in some of his materials in his journals, of course, he was very prolific in his writing, and he only lived until 50. But he was really a scholar of his own kind and a great writer. He wrote poetry, he wrote many hymns, he wrote prose, all kinds of things. And some of his language is just so, you know, incredible. One of the things that he wrote when he got to the Salt Lake Valley that I thought was pretty interesting was, this is the first time that I've actually reaped what I've sown since I even joined this church. So Parley is a terrific character here,

and look what he does. Here he goes with Lehman Copley to the Shakers. Now, the Shakers are a fascinating group, right? They were kind of a breaking off of the Quakers. And they were called the Shaking Quakers for a while because they liked that sort of ecstatic form of worship where they shook and danced in this kind of frenzied way. Yes. So they really were Shakers. And they weren't welcomed in England because that was not buttoned down enough, I guess,

because they didn't like that kind of ecstatic form of worship. So they kind of threw them out and they came to the U.S. for religious freedom. And of course, the original or the full name is the United Society of Believers in Christ's Second Appearance. And although we don't worship the way the shakers did, there were some interesting similarities between the beliefs of the shakers and the Latter-day Saint, you know, restored gospel. I mean, the gospel of Jesus Christ is restored in the Latter-days. So there were some, they believed in communal living, which was similar.

They certainly believed that Christ was going to make a second coming, although they thought he had already come in the form of women. So that was a pretty big difference. But they did believe in a general apostasy after the time of Christ, which was consistent with our beliefs. They believed in modern prophecy. They believed in the agency of man. And as I said, in the ideal of a communal life.

So then the ways they differed were that they thought Christ had come already in the form of a woman named Mother Anne Lee. And they also were pretty strict about vegetarianism. And then here was a huge difference. They also diverged in the views of marriage and sexual relationships because they felt that that was evil, that the sin in the Garden of Eden was sexual and that nobody should ever have sexual relations and not get married at all. And this is where Lehman Copley comes in. He had been associated with the Shakers and he believed a lot of what the Shakers believed and was kind of a part of their group, although he didn't live

in their community. They were about 15 miles southwest of Kirtland, Ohio. And Lehman Copley lived about 35 miles away. So he hadn't sold his property and moved to be with them in that communal place, but he still associated with them a lot and kind of considered himself to be a part of them. But he was married. And the leader of the Shakers, whose name was an interesting name, Ashbo Kitchell, called Lehman Copley out on this and really gave him a hard time because he felt that he wasn't willing to pick up his cross and carry it, which would have been celibacy. That, you know, give up your marriage and be completely celibate and that that is the cross that we carry. And so, you know, you're not willing to do that, so you're failing. And it seems like Copley, you know, was probably pretty offended by that.

And I'm interpreting a little bit. But from what is written here by even Joseph Smith's comments, it sounds like he kind of wanted someone to tell the Shakers that he was right and they were wrong. That yes, some of these things that they believed in common with our religion were great, but you're wrong about marriage, and Copley's right. So he goes, and he put out kind of a lot of energy into saying, we need a revelation to go to this group, because they're good people, and the church members actually had some kind of friendly interaction with them, exchange, a little commerce, and so on, some acts of fellowship, apparently. But so he goes to the prophet, and he says, do something about this.

They need to know the full truth, and maybe they'll all join the church. So Joseph Smith went to the Lord and received section 49, which is very clear about how the Savior cometh not in the form of a woman, whereas a man wandering upon the earth, like, let's not make this mistake. That's not right. And also, of course, that marriage is ordained of God, which is a huge statement that the shakers didn't like. Now, what was interesting is, oh, and he also said that

to forbid to eat from meat is not ordained of God. It says that he was actually very anxious to go and deliver this to the Shakers. And so he went with Sidney Rigdon, and Parna came a little later. Sidney and Lehman came the evening before the service on Sunday, and they visited with Asheville Kitchell a little bit and had a little discussion. Neither of the groups felt necessarily like they had yielded any points, apparently, but they had sort of a friendly discussion about the differences. And then the next morning, Kitchell proposed to Rigdon and Copley that neither side should force their doctrine on the other at this time. Rigdon had planned to read the Revelation to the Shakers at their

Sabbath service that day, but decided to keep his peace for the moment and subject himself to the order of the place. So he wanted to be respectful and not impose. Just before the meeting began, Parley P. Pratt arrived at North Union on horseback. You're like, oh no, oh no. Here it is. Here it is. Upon hearing of Rigdon's submissive response to Kitchell's proposal, the fiery Pratt insisted they pay no attention to him, for they had come with the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the people must hear it. So the missionary sat in silence until the meeting was complete, and then the people stood up to leave. But Rigdon arose at that point and stated that he had a message from the Lord Jesus Christ to this people. Could he have the privilege of delivering it? With Kitchell's

permission, he read the revelation in its entirety and asked if they might be allowed to continue preaching on the revelation dictated. Kitchell, keeping his indignation in check, responded that he did not accept the message and, quote, would release them and their Christ from any further burden about us and take all the responsibility on myself. I always, whoever, when I hear that, I'm like, gosh, why does anybody want to say, just I'll take all of that blame for what I'm about to do. That's just really stupid, but whatever. Rigdon countered, this you cannot do. I wish to hear the people speak. He wanted to give the people a chance to see if any of them would accept the message, not just having their leader speak for them.

So Kitchell allowed the others to speak their minds, but basically they all ended up saying they were fully satisfied with what they had. So none of the Shaker community was interested in hearing more about the gospel, and they all basically rejected section 49. So Rigdon, it says, stoically set the revelation aside, resigned that their mission had been unfruitful. Pratt, on the other hand, was not finished so easily. I really like this. There's these type of personalities today in the church, right? Missionaries like this who are a little more, let's not do this.

Oh, we're going in, Elder, right? We are going to go. There's an interesting dynamic here that I'm thinking of people in my life going, oh, yeah, I know that guy. That guy would have done that. Oh, and I know that guy. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That sounds like, oh, what's his know that guy. That guy would have done that. Oh, and I know that guy. Yeah. That's right. That's right.

That sounds like old, what's his name? Yeah. So he was not finished. He arose, Kitchell recounted and shook the dust from his, oh, so this is Parley who does this. Kitchell is telling the story, but Parley shook the dust from his coattail as a testimony against us that we had rejected the word of the Lord Jesus. In so doing, Pratt was following Jesus' injunction to the disciples, remember,

about shaking the dust off their feet if a place did not receive them. But Kitchell would not tolerate it. His forbearance at its limit, the shaker leader denounced Pratt in full sight of his congregation. And this is the quote. You filthy beast, dare you presume to come in here and try to imitate a man of God by shaking your filthy tail? Confess your sins and purge your soul from your lusts and your other abominations before you ever presume to do the like again. Hitchell then turned his wrath to Copley. So Copley is the one who was hoping to have this, you know, reconciliation

and have the shakers all recognize that he was hoping to have this, you know, reconciliation and have the shakers all recognize that he was right and join the church or whatever, who had begun weeping. I mean, this is a pretty, pretty traumatic event. Yes. And gave this stinging rebuke. So this is Kitchell to Copley. You hypocrite, you knew better. You knew where the living work of God was, but for the sake of indulgence, referring to his marriage, for the sake of indulgence, you could consent to deceive yourself. So Kitchell really went after Copley, and Copley was devastated, and then they dismissed the congregation, and Pratt mounted his horse and returned to Kirtland immediately, and later summed up the visit. We fulfilled this mission as we were commanded in the settlement of the strange people near Cleveland, Ohio, but they utterly refused to

hear or obey the gospel. So after that, communication between the church and the Shakers was fairly tense and limited, as you might suspect. So anyway, that's kind of an amazing story here about section 49, where Parley Pratt just shines in all of his fiery temperament. But what a defender of the faith he was, you know, and he did not have any shame about the gospel of Jesus Christ, which is really a lovely example. Not that we necessarily need to go and provoke people. I think that when I was a teenager in seminary reading these sections, I probably skipped the introduction. And this is one of those where you really have to read that. Otherwise, you're hearing things like that the son of man cometh not in the form of a woman. You don't really realize that it's answering some specific things unless you have

this kind of background. So thank you for giving us that because then when you know that and then you read it, and I think it'll be fun for our listeners to imagine Sidney Rigdon getting up and reading. Did you say it was Sidney that got up and said, no, I'm going to read it? Got up and read it. He read it. But then when they rejected it, and then even the whole group. And party's like, we're not done here. That's right. I'm shaking my coattail off at you guys.

So he had the last word there. And it was, yes, pretty interesting fireworks, really. But you're right. The context is a lot to this. It really brings it to life. I'm going to say that I looked up the Shakers because I thought that was interesting. And of course, a group that doesn't believe in marriage. How long are they going to last? Exactly my question.

I hope my children are raised in the church. Oh, wait a minute. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Different kind of mentality there. They actually are down to two living individuals in Maine. Let me ask you, Lily, just really quick about Lehman Copley. He joined the church like two months before this, right? From what I remember, he's a lot older than Joe Smith, and he's got quite a bit of property. He had at least 1,000 acres. At least he had of his property, he gave, was it 1,000 or, yeah, I think it was 1,000

acres that he gave for the settlement of the saints coming from New York. So when he did join the church, he was moved to be really generous and say, I can allow them to settle here. Now, after this didn't go down so well with the Shakers, he pulled back on that promise. So he said, no, I don't want you settling on my property. He was excommunicated shortly after in that same year, 1831. Then he kind of reconciled and joined the church again the following year. But when the saints moved on, he didn't move with them. He stayed attached there to his property.

So he stays in Ohio. He stays in Ohio. And this was his moment. You know, he really could have come through and said, all right, the Shakers aren't going to join, but I'm just going to bury my pride or whatever. I mean, you know, there's probably a little pride there. I don't know. The Lord judged between me and thee, but I, he, he clearly was disappointed, the good things that they had, but changing some pretty specific and important doctrinal points that they were off on. One thing that I did want to mention is that the Shakers have that beautiful hymn that many of us have sung in choirs or heard called Simple Gifts. That's a Shaker hymn. It is a gift to be simple, it is a gift to be free, it is a gift to come around where you ought to be. You know, there's just always such wonderful stuff here.

But let's look at verse 6 for a moment. And I guess the end of verse 5 even. For thus saith the Lord, I am God. This is all of verse 5. And have sent mine only begotten Son into the world for the redemption of the world. And have decreed that he that received him shall be saved, and he that received him not shall be damned. And they have done unto the Son of Man even as they listed. I just want to say that as I read through the DNC, I am so moved by the voice of the Lord. And I first read the DNC when I was,

this was the first book of scripture that I read on my own. And I had always attended seminary, but I kind of read what was required for class, whatever. I didn't ever really read cover to cover. I think this was my junior year, and we were studying the DNC, and I just decided, I'm going to read this on my own. And I fell in love with the Doctrine and Covenants. And it was because I heard this voice. I remember when I, on my first time through the DNC reading early here in section 18, verse 36, wherefore you can testify that you have heard my voice and know my words. And the verse before that, of course, for it is my voice which speaketh them unto you. These words are not of men nor of man. I'm going backwards to verse 34. When I read those words, you can testify that you've heard my voice and know my words. I really felt that. I felt that these were the words of the Lord. And the voice of the DNC is particularly powerful because it's the only book

of Scripture given to us after the Lord's first coming is complete. Like, think about it. All the other books of Scripture, the Old Testament, you know, the Book of Mormon, I mean, they're talking about both the first coming and the second coming. Isaiah is confusing sometimes to people because he goes back and forth a lot. You know, he's talking about the first coming, and then all of a sudden he's talking about the second coming, and then he's back to the first coming. And, you know, you have to kind of keep track of it. But all these other books had to preach both, right? Because the Lord was going to come twice in the plan of His Heavenly Father. First to come and perform His amazing and magnificent and infinite

atonement, and then again at the end to wrap up, you know, the plan and start the millennium. And look at the difference of the voices. Okay, and so here's Parley Pratt, one of his hymns that we sing often. And I used to tell my children when we sang this in church, I noticed it when we were singing the first sacrament hymn one time. And I said, look, kids, this is a first coming versus second coming hymn. Jesus Once of Humble Birth. It's hymn number 196. Listen to the words. Jesus once of humble birth, now in glory comes to earth. Once he suffered grief and pain, now he comes on earth to reign.

The whole song is like that. Once a meek and lowly lamb, now the Lord, the great I am. Once upon the cross he bowed, now his chariot is the cloud. I mean, but he now will bear no more at the end. Every verse, it's first coming, second coming, first coming, second coming. And this beautiful hymn by Parley Pratt shows the contrast. The meek and lowly lamb, once all things he meekly bore, but he now will bear no more. This voice of the doctrine and covenants is the second part of each of those phrases. It's now I'm coming. Now I'm on the right hand of God. Now I've done it. There's

no more. I'm coming in obscurity with no apparent beauty that man should desire me, you know, giving my back to the smiters and to my cheeks to them that plucked up. That's over. It's over. And now it's power. And I think that is so amazing about the DNC, that it's this voice of the second coming throughout the book. You know what else? I loved what you were saying there, because when I was in seminary is when the new edition of the Bible with footnotes to the Book of Mormon, you know, the church's own publication of the King James Bible and the triple combination came out. So after I was baptized, which was long before, of course, my parents gave me a new Bible and it was really cool because it had the words of Jesus in red ink. And I've heard this comment made about the Doctrine and Covenants before. If it was the words of Jesus in red ink in the doctrine and covenants,

almost the whole thing would be red ink. Yeah. And I remember having that same impression as a teenager reading and going, this is really cool to hear the savior say words like Ohio, you know, and to think this is him talking right now. So I'm really glad you brought that up. This is a post first coming type voice that's speaking to us. This is the second coming voice of the Savior. And it is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword. And in fact, I looked up just for the heck of it, because we have word search now and it's so much fun to do it sometimes. I looked up quick and powerful as a phrase. It doesn't appear in the Old Testament.

Four times in the New Testament. Once in the Book of Mormon. Thirteen times in the DNC. No times in the Prologue of Christ. The sword or, either phrase, sword or cup of mine indignation. So again, you know, it's kind of an attitude he's expressing about like, but he now will bear no war, right? Four times in the Old Testament, never in the New Testament, once in the Book of Mormon, once in the Pearl of Great Price, six times in the DNC. And the DNC, you'll remember, is not even 300 pages, where the Old Testament is 1,100

plus, and the New Testament's 400 plus, and the Book of Mormon's 500 plus. So even in this short book, he's mentioned so much more. And this was my favorite. Alpha and Omega, zero in the Old Testament, four times in the New Testament, once in the Book of Mormon, not at all in the Pearl of Great Price, and 13 times in the DNC, even that fewer than 300-page book. The Lord is telling us who He is in no uncertain terms. And that voice spoke to me as a 16-year-old. I've been in love with the DNC ever since.

I did want to say this. You know, it's been wonderful to listen to these church history people that you've had on, and I have learned a ton, and I really appreciate what they bring. And I've always been jealous of people who have a job that they get to study the gospel for their whole profession. That's not really been my path in life, but I admire it, and I am so grateful. And we all benefit from the work that you and those people do. So it's been really fun. But I guess I want to say, too, don't worry too much if your kids don't get into the history

too much or if they don't know the history. Like you said, John, you didn't even read the little headings there. And yet you felt the power of the book. I felt the power of the book. I felt the power of the book. I didn't know anything about church history, really. I mean, okay, I knew a little, but nothing like what we're learning from these wonderful people that come in. But this book is powerful, and the scriptures are powerful, and we need not to sell them short. Our kids can hear the voice of the Lord. He is speaking to them. And they just have

to bring an honest heart. It doesn't even have to be a perfect heart, which is a good thing because none of us would qualify, but just an honest heart. And they can hear the voice of the Lord. I remember when I was teaching seminary, one year there was a girl from California that moved in to Vegas, and she was in my class. And I was checking with her to see how she was doing and making friends and things like that. And I asked her, you know, if she was like in seminary, and she said, Well, yeah, it's okay. But are we going to play more games? I said, Not really. And she said, Well, we played a lot of games in my class in California. And I said, Well, you know, that's cool. And I do have one scripture mastery basketball game, which is pretty fun, and it actually helps you learn them. So we do that

once in a while, but not very often. I said, mostly we're just going to be in the scriptures. And she said, oh, okay. And I was like, well, and you know, there's another junior class, and you're welcome to try it. And I won't be offended if you want to, you know, if you want to try out the other class or whatever. Anyway, she stayed and we were in the scriptures every day. At the end of the year, she came to see me and she said, could I take your class next year? I couldn't believe how much I learned about the gospel. And I think sometimes we take the wrong approach with our youth. We try to, you know, try to find some way to hook them, you know, and sometimes in our youth

programs, we maybe go a little bit too far to try to entertain or excite them. And I worry about that sometimes. Of course, now everything's been shut down. But I mean, back in the day, you know, Girls Camp became this pageant in the mountains and, you know, all these different activities that we would do with the kids. And I remember thinking, like, we can never win that contest with the world. The world wants to excite and seduce and titillate our children, and they have no standards. So there's no way we can ever win that contest if that's what that is. And quite a budget. Exactly.

And quite a budget. And we're supposed to be responsible, you know? So I said, but we have the Word of God. We have the gospel of Jesus Christ. There's nothing like that anywhere else on the planet. Let's not sell it short. Let's not think our kids can't hear this voice. They can hear this voice.

If they have any kind of honest desire, the Lord is so kind with our youth. He wants them to hear his voice. And I know I heard it without any extra, you know, information or bells or whistles. Not that I am not grateful for everything I've learned since then, because it does deepen and strengthen and enlarge my understanding. So both sides of that are important, I would say. But don't worry. Well, I was going to mention something that John frequently mentions is, you know, when the Lord gets a chance to talk to a brand new people, what's he going to say? What's he going to say? And it's, I noticed, repent, be baptized, repent, the gift of the Holy Ghost. It's the same message over and over and over again. If the Lord's

going to get a chance to talk, you're going to see repentance, baptism, the gift of the Holy Ghost, have faith. And you can pick up on that message over and over. I bracketed that, Hank, 12, 13, and 14. And here is this chance for Parley and Lehman and Sidney to go talk to this other group. Well, what are the first principles? Here they are again. Believe in the Lord Jesus, repent, be baptized in the name of Christ, receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. So the question is, well, what are the first principles? Well, there they are. As a teacher of the gospel, anyone who's a teacher of the gospel should probably never tire of teaching repentance because the Lord never seems to get tired of teaching. In fact, you ask the Lord a question, it seems, where you say, you know, I want to know about

the pearly gates. Do they swing? Do they roll? What's going on? And he says, that's a great question. Let's talk about repentance, right? That seems to be his answer every single time. So I think you're right, Lily. You don't really have to know all the background of these things to hear repent, repent, repent over and over. In fact, as I've gotten more experience as a parent, I just keep coming back to that in family lessons, in discussions, you know, let's talk, let's have a little, you know, let's, let's have a little devotional time as a family. And I've said, well, if the Lord never tires of talking about repentance, maybe that could be our theme, right? Let's keep talking about it. Um, cause that, that seems to be his art form, right? He's golden.

Um, my husband, you know, early in our marriage said, you know, that we talk about the R's of repentance and recognition, remorse, you know, all that kind of stuff. And he says, those can be useful, of course, but he said, really the best synonym for repentance is change. And I've valued that my whole life because it is a gospel of change. And when I work as a clinician with people, you know, sometimes people will say things like, well, that's just the way I am. And I always add, well, so far. Or they say, I can't do that. And I'm like, well, yet. I mean, we're still breathing, right?

And it's a life that allows us to change. The whole atonement of Jesus Christ is to facilitate change. That's what the atonement does, is it allows us to let that old man of sin be cast behind us and become the new child of Christ. So it is, it's about change. I can't help myself. I'm a counselor. I have to say something about marriage is a redeemed of God, but I'll be brief. And that is that don't, you know, it's not just marriage. It's good marriage. It's good marriage. Now that's hard, right? I mean, it's a challenge. We all know it. It's one of God's perfect refiners, fires. I have talked to a lot of married groups and firesides and so on, and I'll say often, you know, we were nice people when we were single.

But, you know, let's get that back, right? Let's keep working on that and become good at marriage. It's God's plan for us. And even single, we can prepare to be good husbands and good wives and good mothers and good fathers. It is part of the interaction with people that we have in every scenario that we can learn how to be good at this. So I would really encourage. One thing that I just see so many times is that, you know, we're not as nice as we should be. We're nice in public and then we go home and

all the cares of the day, you know, sort of unravel and sometimes we're short at home. And it's just too important to let those things continue. I mean, there are so many things we could say, but that's one that comes to mind a lot. I remember having a couple that came in to see me. This was one of the first couples I worked with, and they were ready to file for divorce, but their bishop made them promise to come in four times, which is one of those cases as a counselor, you're like, oh, great. They've already made their decision. But I asked them, I said, well, if something could have saved your marriage, what would it have been? And they said, communication.

Communication, we just don't ever communicate well with each other. We never have. So I listened to them talk about that and, you know, asked some questions and got some background. And then the next week I met with one of them separately and the following week, the other one separately. And then the last time, our fourth meeting, we got together again. And I said, you know, your problem's not really communication.

And they were pretty affronted. They were indignant. They're like, well, yes, your problem's not really communication. And they were pretty affronted. They were indignant. They're like, well, yes, it is. It's communication. I'm like, not really. And they said, well, what is it? I said, well, you're mean to each other. You're actually communicating quite effectively. That's, yeah, you're getting the message loud and clear across yeah but it's really mean and to give this couple credit they acknowledged it and they continued to come and they the work they did i was happy to be a part of helping that saved their marriage and i saw them years later before we left vegas and they came and they had another child by then and said they were on a good path

and still working at becoming you know more, more effective at marriage. And I guess that's my point. We have to keep changing. We have to get better at what we're doing. And we have to, there's a beautiful statement by Marvin Ashton from 1992, April, the tongue can be a sharp sword. The best and clearest indicator that we are progressing spiritually and coming to Christ is the way we treat other people. And I am pretty sure he didn't mean in public. Oh, can I just take off on that point? Because Sister Sherry Dew in one of her books talked about a visiting member of the Seventy coming and asking, how do you know when someone's truly converted? And she said, everybody wanted to impress the general authority.

So there were all sorts of comments and he put them all on the dry erase board. And then he erased everything except for by how they treat others. And Sherry, to her credit, said, I thought, really? And then I started to research it in the scriptures. The one that always comes to me is the John 13. By this shall all men know that you're my disciples. It's not your callings, not how many books you've read, how many scriptures you've memorized. It's if you have love one to another. And she became, I mean, that was a great chapter. And I thought,

look at that. It's right. Jesus says it. This is how you'll know. It's how we treat people. I thought that's a very good point. John, growing up, I always asked, I asked my mom what a shalmeno was. I said, what's a shalmeno? She said, what are you talking about? And we would sing, by this shalmeno, ye are my disciples. And I did not know what a shalmeno was. Now, that's a true story. I wanted to definition, please. I wanted to tie these together. And I think you were about to do this, Leigh, or you started to. When we talk about repent, repent, repent, and then it's for marriage is ordained of God. It's almost as if for me personally, because I know I don't want to exclude anyone who's unmarried.

So for me personally, marriage has caused me to repent more than any other, that any other relationship in my life. And it's a good thing. It's caused me to change and improve because I'm not just accountable to me, but I have this other person in my life that every, almost every action affects her, right? Almost every, every affection, uh, every action of my life affects Sarah in some way. And I've got to be, that's helped me repent. It's helped me to say, oh, hell, not only am I hurting me with this action, I'm hurting her. So this has got to stop. Let's, I think, let's read those. I mean,

let's read the 15, 16, and 17. Yeah, go ahead, John. And again, okay, so remember, as Lily has helped us understand the backdrop of this and to whom they're speaking. And so talk about the Lord giving a concise kind of purpose of marriage here. And again, verily I say unto you that whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of God, for marriage is ordained of God unto man. Wherefore, it is lawful that he should have one wife, and that they twain shall be one flesh. And all this, I love this, that the earth might answer the end of its creation. I mean, this is the desired outcome of making the planet, right? And that it might be filled with the measure of man according to

his creation before the world was made. That's very concise, but it's huge. It's huge. And he is talking about good marriage, meaningful marriage, figuring it out, not just saying, okay, well- With a lot of repentance. That's right. With a lot of ongoing change and repentance and preparation for that. If we are in a single state, that doesn't mean we can't treat people right and that we can't examine, how am I treating my roommates? How am I treating my colleagues? How am I treating the people that I interact with?

The people that frustrate me, it's all the same stuff. We live on this planet with other people. We're not on a desert island alone. So it is about working on those interactions, and it prepares us in such a better way for this magnificent plan of our Heavenly Father's where He intends us to figure out how to be successful at it, not just to do it. Yeah, those words are simple and powerful. I have to say, I wonder, Lily, if the Lord has 1997 in mind when he says marriage is ordained of God, because that's got to be where the, what is that? One of the opening statements of the proclamation of the family, right? The family is ordained of God. Marriage is ordained of God. I was just graduated from high school and I thought there's nothing new in here. I remember reading the proclamation of the family going, wow, thanks for the proclamation. I've known this my whole life.

You know, I had exactly the same experience, Hank, when I heard President Hinckley deliver that. And I did feel kind of like, check, check, check. Yeah, these are things we've heard from our youth, you know. And it didn't seem bold at all. And then, you know, not that many years later, I was teaching at BYU the class on the Family Proclamation. And as we kind of do it, just in those years, I was like, this is a bold document. Oh, my goodness. Now, there is so much in Section 50,

I'm a little concerned because Section 49 was so much fun, but section 50 is a powerhouse too. You know, I'd kind of like to look at verse 22, because I think maybe a definition of resurrection can help us here. Because this sounds, the idea that the shakers had that Christ would come again, but in a different body. Anyway, verse 22 says, again, verily I say unto you that the son of man cometh not in the form of a woman, neither of a man traveling on the earth. And I've always been taught that once a being is resurrected, they are never separated again. Which kind of helps us understand never again to be divided.

So that a better understanding of resurrection would make this idea impossible that Christ would come again in a different body. Am I getting that right? I also liked in verse 22 that the Lord, I don't know if he meant to do this, but there's a little play on words where he says, Be not deceived, but continue in steadfastness, looking forth for the heavens to be shaken. Here we're talking to the shakers. I know, I saw that too. And I wonder if he's like that, you got the right idea with shaking. But you're not going to be shaking.

It's not the people that are shaking. I'll do the shaking. We're going to be shaking. Yeah, it's the heavens. They're going to be, the heavens are going to be shaken. That's pretty good. And then he throws in a verse from Isaiah. I always, you know, after I taught for so many years, I just kind of picked up on these little Isaiah phrases where he says, the Lamanites shall

blossom as the rose, right? That's a kind of an Isaiah phrase, a symbolic meaning. Not the desert this time, but the Lamanites specifically. I find that fascinating. Joseph had just sent, right, his missionaries, those four, I shouldn't say he had sent them, the Lord had just sent his four missionaries out to teach the Lamanites. So this was on his mind. And then the idea of Zion, this is something they've been thinking about, you know, just

the Lord has been planting little seeds saying, oh, Zion, it was, remember, John, it started like as a cause, the cause of Zion, and then it became kind of a people. And now the Lord is kind of saying, it's actually going to be a place. Zion will flourish upon the hills and rejoice upon the mountains. So I think the Lord, I love this. I love that the Lord, yes, he's given a message to this religious group, the Shakers, but it's also a message to, it's a dual audience. It's all of us and the saints of that day. This is something that they could have all used. In fact, doesn't he say it in verse eight, all men shall repent, not just the shakers. I want everybody repenting.

We can always look at the end of verse 26, ask and you shall receive, knock on it shall be opened unto you. President Packer, well, before he was even a member of the Twelve, I think, wrote that this is probably the most frequently repeated admonition in all of Scripture. Yeah. And I love that he's telling the shakers. You too. You too keep asking. Lily, let's wrap up this discussion on section 49. Since we have a marriage counselor here, let's use this expertise that we have. Let's say someone's listening today and they want to have a good marriage. They really do. I really love what you said here. For marriage is ordained of God unto man. Healthy marriage, right? That's what's ordained of God. I don't think the Lord

wants his children to be miserable in marriage. So how, I know that this is your whole career, so you could go on for a long time, but if there's someone listening who says, you know, Dr. Anderson, how do I get a better marriage? What would you say? Well, that is a wonderful question. I'm going to bring it to this. I'm going to say that God doesn't want us to be victims. So if we feel that we are being mistreated and chronically hurt, I'm not talking about the kinds of injuries that we inflict casually and carelessly on the people closest to us. I'm talking about a chronic situation of injury or disrespect, certainly any kind of abuse. Get help. Don't try to do that alone. And don't think that

God's desire for us to be charitable means that we should tolerate sin. He's really clear about that in section one, that he can look upon sin without even the least degree of allowance, because sin destroys. And it doesn't just destroy the one who's being victimized, it destroys the victimizer. It's not charitable to allow someone to continue to mistreat anybody, our children or ourselves. I'm going to make a big pitch for the advocacy for our children. We may think that if we're being hurt, we're just sucking it up and our children will, you know, be okay. But our children are experiencing that too, in some ways. Get help. I'm not suggesting that the immediate response should be divorce. It's not. President Oaks beautifully said in a conference talk named Divorce that people don't always like to hear it, but the remedy for bad marriage isn't

divorce, it's repentance. And that's what we've been talking about, change. Now, short of something as stringent as abuse, let me say that it really is about looking to our Heavenly Father and saying, what can I bring that will be better for this marriage? And this is something John Gottman from the University of Washington has studied that is fascinating and really, of course, fits so beautifully with what we've been saying. He did some research, and many people are familiar with this. It's been publicized quite widely that showed that he could predict with 96% accuracy whether a couple would stay married or get divorced after listening to them talk to each other for one hour. That is

extraordinary. Research just doesn't produce those kinds of numbers, but it did in this case. And just for the heck of it, he whittled that down to 15 minutes and his accuracy only dropped to 90%. So what was he doing? Well, he took a piece of paper or he and his assistants, you know, just drew two columns and positive on one side, negative on the other. And every time the couple interacted, they just marked a hash mark on the positive or the negative column. And that included, of course, the content of what was said, but also the look on their face, the body language, the tone of voice. Was it sarcastic or bitter or nasty or demeaning?

That's all negative. Was it kind? The roll of the eyes, right? The roll of the eyes, exactly. So it was the whole package, you know, of like, what's being communicated here? And is it positive or negative? And then at the end of the period of time that he chose, he just did a tabulation and a ratio.

And his prediction was that if it were less than five positive to every one negative, the couple would end in divorce. Five to one. And that's just to survive. That had nothing to do with happiness. Happiness closer to 20 to one. So what are just to survive. That had nothing to do with happiness. Happiness closer to 20 to one. So what are we doing in our families? Are we positive? Are we negative? And you know, a lot of times we don't mean to be negative, but there's just a lot of business to be

transacted. And even with our children, we say stuff like, is your homework done? Did you get your laundry? Did you mow the lawn? Or with our spouse, is there gas in the car? Is this bill paid? Do we have this prepared? Is so-and-so going to go pick up somebody tomorrow? And it's not negative necessarily, and that's a good thing, but it's not positive either. So what are we doing that actually generates love, that shows appreciation, that is kind, that's loving, that's appreciative?

And we can't just manipulate this and say like, okay, well, nice weather we're having. You look good in that color. Did you like this at all? Now let me tell you what I really think. That's not going to work. It's got to be this genuine flow, this genuine flow of positivity and appreciation. And again, if there's not enough to appreciate, we might need help. And we have to be, I'm going to say this, if you're choosing a counselor, let the buyer beware. As I mentioned before, counseling is a strange profession and has become in some places, you know, pretty, pretty off in terms of, you know, consistency with the gospel of Jesus

Christ. So be very careful when selecting help, but there is good help if you need it. And you can start with a bishop or priesthood leader, but if you need help, get help. There are things that work better and other people that can sometimes help to coax a spouse. We could talk forever about section 121, which is probably the best treaties on relationships in scripture. It's marvelous. And I have a lot to say about that, but for another time. But God talks about persuasion. He doesn't talk about conflict. He talks about helping people to come to a new way of thinking. And that comes through love and kindness, but not victimhood. So again, if we're not sure where that line begins or ends, get help.

Please join us for part two of this podcast.