followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 51-57 : Dr. Maclane Heward Part I

Episode Date: May 15, 2021

Are members required to live the Law of Consecration now? Dr. Maclane Heward joins John and Hank to discuss righteous stewardship, Zion, and how our covenants prepare us to meet the Savior. You will learn to love Edward and Lydia Partridge as much as Hank and Dr. Heward after listening to this episode. Also, we learn about Lucy Mack Smith as a powerful leader and a bold witness. This story is not to be missed.Show notes: https://followhim.co/episodesYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcast00:00  Introduction to the Podcast01:32 Introduction to Dr. Maclane Heward03:33 The Saints Move from NY to Ohio05:06 Temple Covenants Help Us Prepare to Meet the Lord and Consecration Examples (Good and Bad) 08:14 Section 37 is the Saints Asking for Clarification Regarding Moving Again10:38 A Lesser Noticed Parable in the D&C13:20 Edward Partridge is a “Man Without Guile”14:20  Backstory about Edward Partridge by Dr. Heward16:20  Taking Offense on Someone Else’s Behalf (Who isn’t Offended) Can Lead to Murder Attempt of Joseph18:35  We Don’t Get Zion, We Build It20:15 Consecration is Given By Invitation26:56 The Colesville Branch Stays Together From New York to Utah31:30 Lucy Mack Smith Saves Her Company and Preaches the Gospel like a Lion37:39 The Importance of Mothers46:23 The Structures in Place to Help the Poor49:05  Bishop Partridge Is Told How to Administer Property and Land52:16 The Difficulty of Expression Through Writing but the Importance of Keeping Records55:25 The Meaning of Wants and Needs01:01:37 Leman Copley Returns to the Shakers and Kicks Members Off His Land01:08:32 The Saints Learn in Their Very Short Time in Ohio01:15:57 End of Part I

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John, by the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. My friends, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith, and I am here with the illustrious John, by the way, my wonderful co-host. Welcome, John. Thanks. Before we get started today, we need to mention a couple of things. One, we want you to find us on social media. You can find us on Instagram. You can find us on, what's that other one called? Facebook. Yeah. What's that other one called?

You can rate and review the podcast on your podcasting app. A lot of people don't know you can actually watch the podcast on YouTube. If you would like to just go look us up there. And we want to make sure that our missionaries who are watching on Facebook get a shout out because we've had some messages from some missionaries and just know that we love you, elders and sisters. And also we do a little thing called follow him favorites on social media as well. So we've got a lot going out there that we want everybody to know about and come give it a try. But let's get to it, John. Every week we get to bring on one of the church's great minds. And we have another opportunity this week to hear from a great mind of the church. Who's with us today? We do. I'm so excited about this. This is Dr. McLean Heward, and I've got a little bio here. He graduated with a PhD in the history of

Christianity and religions of North America from Claremont Graduate University in 2019, just over two years ago. He met his wife, Maria, who is a professional pianist on a piano bench in high school. I've got to hear that story. And they have five fun, active, happy children. They probably also play the piano, I bet. He currently teaches at the Institute of Religion adjacent to Utah Valley University. Has spent time teaching in BYU religious education as well as the seminary system, primarily at Lone Peak. And, McLean, welcome. We're so glad to have you here today.

Thanks for being with us. You know, to say that it's my pleasure is an understatement. This is, I am so excited to be here. I really appreciate you letting me come on. John, did we want to hear more about the piano bench before we got started? Yeah, that's a fun story. Where did you go to high school and was that an assembly or a talent show or what? A couple of my friends walked up to me and they said, hey, we think that you should like Maria. And I was like, wow, dill? Who's Maria?

And they pointed down the choir steps to the girl sitting on the piano, piano bench. She wasn't on the piano. Sitting on the piano bench. And I walked down the stairs and I sat next to her and I said, hi, my name's McLean. What's your name? And that's, I mean, that's, she's a redhead. She's got beautiful freckles and big blue eyes and her face went red. And I was like, this is gonna be a fun experience.

So I was a senior, she was a sophomore and she's just so cute, man. Oh, that's wonderful. Eminem. Eminem. Maria, I just met a girl named Mariaia i bet she's never heard a song about that now we know the origin yeah exactly all right um let's jump into uh this week's come follow me lesson uh we are studying sections 51 through 57 of the doctrine and covenants uh

let's jump into section 51. The heading says we're talking to Bishop Edward Partridge, who needs to make arrangements for the settlement of the members moving to Ohio from New York. We've talked about that move. So, McLean, let's start with Edward Partridge and what it's been like for the saints moving, migrating from New York to Ohio. I am a personal fan of Edward Partridge. I love this man. He is a disciple. Maybe I could just say one thing really quickly that helps maybe contextualize all of these sections.

The Lord is very much focused on Zion. Joseph Smith makes a comment in the history where he basically says that Zion is the focus, the temporal focus of the church. And in the minds of the Latter-day Saints, this is the kingdom of God. Zion and the kingdom of God are really synonymous. They're equal to each other. And so they're trying to establish the kingdom of God on earth. And we know today we would say that, you know, the temple and ordinances are preparing us to receive the Savior here on earth and prepare to be in his presence. Whether that is something that happens because we're on earth during the second coming or we die and we go to meet him. But those temple covenants are central to enter God's presence.

So as you think about those temple covenants, I can say this without getting struck by lightning because it's on the church's official website. This is not antimormon.org. This is churchofjesuschrist.org. They list the covenants that we make in the temple, the law of obedience, the law of sacrifice, the law of the gospel, faith, repentance, baptism, repentance and being cleansed, the law of chast the temple and the temple ceremonies are yet to come. God is already leading the members of the church through the process of becoming temple-centric, Zion-centric, kingdom of God-centric, presence of God-centric people. And today we talk about going to the temple and symbolically learning through the life of Adam and Eve.

But we've got to understand that although we go to the temple and learn symbolically through Adam and Eve, God is attempting to teach us those same five principles, those same five laws in our daily walk, in our daily activities, commandments, obedience, sacrifice, repentance when we don't get it right, chastity, one of the main natural inclinations, desires, impulses, the controlling of that. And then then finally to control all things and consecration right yeah consecration as we see in these sections we're going to come up with a whole bunch of different examples of people who who both exemplify consecration and who don't, who fall short of the expectation. And I hope that we can see in these sections that, you know, there's a lot of temporal type things.

There's a lot of administrative type things. But we've got to remember that, like God says in section 29, he's never given a direction that's temporal. It's always spiritual to him. And so although we have these structures that help place us, this really is to help prepare us to be in God's presence, to help prepare our hearts. Oh, Lord, prepare my heart to meet with thee on Zion's Mount and never more to part. That's, that's what we're attempting to do is, is institutionalize or systematize these, these directives and laws that God is laying forth in the restoration of the church. When Dr. Sweat was here, he said that a general authority once said to him, never underestimate the spiritual power of doing

temporal things well. Yeah. Right. And I think that's what I heard here is we're going to institutionalize this, but it's a spiritual, it's a spiritual thing. And, and, and, you know, I think that the foundation of what we're going to be talking about is actually, it actually begins in section 38. You're going to see this individually, but, but section 38 is collective right so so section 38 is is the temple ceremony and the sections that we're going to be covering are the individual lives of saints that that learn these these truths but you know section 37 has just said to the saints

move to ohio right and just imagine right i know you've covered you we've covered this in the podcast so i don't want to spend a lot of time but but just this idea of like move to ohio and right and just imagine right i know you've covered you we've covered this in the podcast so i don't want to spend a lot of time but but just this idea of like move to ohio and the saints are like wait wait what and it doesn't seem from my perspective uh it doesn't seem like they're complaining as much as can you give us a little bit more information about this and then section 38 comes right that does give a lot of information. But one of the things that God says is, if you have a farm, which you got to remember, this isn't, you know, you and I, Hank and John, we can go anywhere in the world and be teachers.

Anywhere there's humans, right? We can go and be teachers. But these people are predominantly farmers. Their retirement is bound up in a location, in a place. And so in section 38, God's saying to them, hey. If you are, leave it. Sell your farm or rent it or leave it. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Like what? That's, yeah, that's hard. that's hard to emotionally get into that space

like how how do you how you actually feel but but let me just say one thing about this parable that god gives in in section 20 or in verse 24 25 and 26 well and 27 because i think it's it's the foundation the root of what we're going to be talking about today you know god says let every man esteem his brothers himself and then to really help us understand that this is the context of the parable he says it again verse 25 let every man esteem his brother as himself yeah and then he gives a parable teaching the principle and so the way i the way i like to contextualize this it's like what what do we put in between the space between us and other humans? Like what's the feeling? What's the emotional thing that we put in that space?

And like with Hank, with you, I hope that this is okay to get a little personal. Sure. Not embarrassing, just personal. You know, I remember the first time I met you as a master's student. You were a PhD student and I was a master's student at BYU. And I remember getting a vibe that here was a man that had a great heart and was just trying to bless people's lives, right? And so in between you and I, I put a feeling. It was respect.

It was admiration. It was tenderness, right? I mean, there's this feeling. It was respect. It was admiration. It was tenderness, right? I mean, there's this feeling. But to be honest with you, most of us put apathy between us and other humans. But then check out this parable. For what man among you having 12 sons? So he wants us to think that we're the father. What man among you having 12 sons and is no respecter of them?

Like we love them equally and they serve us obediently. And he saith unto one, be thou clothed in robes and sit thou here and be thou, and the other be thou clothed in rags and sit thou there. And looketh upon his sons and say, I am just. So this may be a false description of this parable. Alonzo Gaskell, he might fight with me about symbolism here. But from my view, I think God is saying, we're the parents and people surrounding us are clothed in robes and rags.

How will we treat them what will we how will we esteem them what what emotion will we put in the distance between us and them and and it's really important i think that he puts us in the shoes of a father john John and Hank, I know you are both fathers, right? The love that we have for our children, the love that a righteous father should have for their children, I think is what God is saying we should attempt to have for everyone, all of our brothers and sisters. And that becomes a foundation for what we're going to be talking about today. Do we love God and understand that he's given us everything? And then do we love our fellow men so passionately that we cannot think of them suffering without extending a hand, without lifting the hands that hang down. That's

our baptismal covenant. We've got to be Christians in that way. So those two things I wanted to mention at the beginning to help contextualize what we're going to be talking about here in section 51. Well, what you just said reminds me of Edward Partridge, who is kind of the center of section 51. This man, as I've studied him, I keep thinking, oh, I can't be more and more and more impressed by Edward Partridge. Then I hear something. I'm like, I'm more impressed with Edward Partridge, the first bishop of the church. I mean, the Lord himself is, here's a man without guile, right? He's complimenting him. And he is, he literally gets, receives the gospel, is baptized, is thrown into leadership. And that's the rest of his life is sacrifice and consecration and helping other people sacrifice and consecrate. I mean, the man, one of my goals, John, I've said this before, is for some of these lesser known names for our podcast to kind of bring them out and say, this is someone you want to know. Edward and Lydia Partridge. Let me give a tiny bit of the story behind it. Because one of the things I love about Edward Partridge is he's human. You know, sometimes we learn about people and we think, oh, wow. Is this person even human?

I don't. Do they ever make mistakes? And you see his humanity and you see his wrestle with trying to live these laws that God is attempting to have all of his children live. And so let's just give a tiny bit of background story. So he does become the bishop. He, in section 52, he and Joseph are asked to go to Missouri, right? Edward Partridge is a successful businessman in the Kirtland area. He's used to a type of lifestyle that comes with success. And he's also, as he and Joseph are traveling to Missouri, to the land of their inheritance, to Zion, he knows that there's been a group of missionaries that have been there preaching the gospel. And these are high-octane missionaries. This is Oliver Cowdery.

This is Ziba Peterson. This is Parley Pratt. These are really great missionaries. We recently talked about Parley Pratt with the Shakers. And you couldn't about Parley Pratt with the Shakers, and you couldn't hold Parley back. You don't mess with that human. You don't mess with that guy. So Parley Pratt, Ziba Peterson, Peter Whitmer, and Oliver Cowdery. Yeah. Yeah. So those four. So they've been there preaching in Missouri for months. And so there's a certain expectation that Edward Partridge has as he comes to Zion that there's going to be kind of an energy.

There's going to be some converts to the church. But then also I think he has some expectations in terms of this is going to be Zion, right? When we talk about Zion, we think, oh, this is going to be nice, right? This is going to be nice. This is the kingdom of god on earth here we go and when he gets to zion he finds that those expectations are not met oh yeah and he gets in such a heated argument with joseph smith um edward partridge and Joseph Smith, and there's at least two spectators, Ezra Booth and Sidney Rigdon.

After the conversation is done, Sidney Rigdon, his reaction is basically, how could Edward Partridge talk to God's prophet that way? Ezra Booth takes the exact opposite experience and says, how could God's prophet talk to Edward Partridge that way, right? And this is one of a couple of different things that will eventually lead to Ezra Booth leaving the church, writing nine letters to, I think it's the Ohio Star, exposés about Joseph Smith that eventually lead to the John Johnson farm and the persecutions and the attempted murder of Joseph Smith, right?

So, I mean, this is a significant argument. And so Edward Partridge is feeling like this is not Zion, and these people are not Zionion like people right and in section 58 god has to rebuke him which i know is not our assigned topic uh but but he has to rebuke him and and the beauty of it is that he is reconciled to Joseph completely. And their relationship is better. God, in effect, says to Edward Partridge, which you'll cover next podcast, he, in effect, says to Edward Partridge,

you thought that I was going to give you Zion. You've got to build Zion. That's a lesson for all of us. Yes. Yes. It is awesome for all of us. I think of, to tell you the truth, you know, as an institute teacher, I think of some of my institute students and I know some of them don't like to admit this, but I know some of them shop for wards, right? They're like, oh, which ward should I go to? I got to find the ward with the leadership and the party, the good times, the opportunities for dating, right? And I think that God has a message for us about creation of Zion. Like, we got to get in there and we got to create Zion,

not expect it to happen. Same with families, right? I mean, I think there's a lot of mom and dads listening. I hope there's a lot of mom and dads listening that, you know, and this is a constant wrestle as a parent. How do I create Zion with my kids? And, you know, later in the Doctrine and Covenants, God talks about how our dominion will flow to us without compulsory means. You know, as parents, we, we wrestle with

this, forcing our kids to do what is right or, or, you know, strongly encouraging, you know, and this idea of like, eventually those kids have to flow to us without compulsory means. They have to want to be a part of us. They have to want to be led by us, just like our relationship with God. He doesn't force prayer. He invites prayer. In the Come Follow Me curriculum, there's a fantastic video by stephen harper where he talks about consecration he and kate holbrook two beautiful minds brilliant minds talking about consecration and in the end

one of the things that that stephen harper says he says in effect um uh some members of the church currently say well when is god going going to require consecration again? And Stephen Harper in this beautiful, in a way that he can with his research and with all that he knows, he says, God has never required consecration. He has invited consecration. He's never required it. And it's never been enforced. And then he talks about, you know, this is us. God is inviting us to pray.

He calls it a commandment. But in section 82 of the Doctrine and Covenants, commandments according to God are directions how to be saved. And we know that salvation is becoming like God. So in some ways, commandments are just directions how to become like God. Yeah. Invitations, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so commandments, we think of them as these domineering things, but it's a beautiful invitation to become like God. So yes, consecration is a covenant. It's something we covenant to participate in with the law of consecration and the temple ordinances. But it's an invitation. Yeah.

So, anyway, I guess what I would say about Edward Partridge, you know, he gets to Missouri. He argues with Joseph Smith. And then he has to realize that he's going to bring his wife and five daughters that are used to this type of lifestyle to Missouri that is not ideal in any way, shape or form. I don't think our listeners would quite understand, but I think it was Joseph who said the people of independence are 100 years behind the times. And this was 1831. So he's thinking, these people got to come out of the 1700s. Yeah. Right?

Yeah, it's a frontier. And I love when we can help paint a backdrop for people of what, I mean, how many states are there in the Union? 26 or something? Right. This is the edge of the wild frontier. And I think Edward Partridge tells Lydia something as in every other establishment is either a bar or a house of ill repute. Like that's every other business in here. You're going to take your family there. Yeah.

Yeah. Let me read this quote from Joseph Smith history. He characterizes this as the residents as the, quote, basest of men who, quote, had fled from the face of civilized society to the frontier country to escape the hand of justice in their midnight revels, their Sabbath breaking, horse raking, racing, excuse me, and gambling. We got to understand that the Western frontier provides a lot of opportunities. And who needs opportunities? Well, there's a couple of different groups of people that need opportunities.

We have people that are distanced from society, right? Because of perhaps religion, perhaps legally. There absolutely is an element here. Divorce is not really an option in this day. And so if you don't like your family, what do you do? You move to the West. They'll never find you, right? And so there's a whole bunch of stuff and a whole bunch of types of people

that are interested in this type of a place. Also people who are speculating on land, right? Those who want to come out and make some money by buying up some land and trying to sell it later. So this is going to lead to an interesting recipe of people in a couple of years. You know, in 1832, the popular American writer, Washington Irving, he traveled through Independence, Missouri in 1832. And listen to what he said.

This actually comes right from the Joe Smith papers, from some of the historical backgrounds, from sections 59. Just as a plug for this, for your listeners, I often, when I read a section, go to Joe Smith papersith papers i look up

the section and i begin by reading the historical background that gives me a good sense of what's happening but so washington irving who traveled through independence in 1832 on an expedition with federal indian commissioners also commented on the quote rougher and rougher life end quote what does that mean right like we have a rough crowd but this is the rougher quote, rougher and rougher life, end quote. What does that mean, right? Like we have a rough crowd, but this is the rougher and the rougher crowd, right? We got both, right? This is rougher squared for all the mathematicians listening, right? And then he said that as he got closer to town,

one of his companions described independence as full of promise, but containing, quote, nothing but a ragged congeries of five or six rough log huts, two or three clapboard houses, two or three so-called hotels, Elias grog shops, and a few stores.

And from what I understand, a grog shop is the state liquor store, basically. Right? This particular dictionary defines it as a saloon bar room, especially a cheap one. All right. So, McLean, let's do this this um so we're not in missouri yet section 51 we're still in ohio but you're saying over this summer this is going to be the trip to missouri okay yeah yep so so so really the i guess the immediate context here of section 51 jumping right into this is the colesville Saints have traveled from New York,

and they are now in Kirtland, and it's, where do we go? Where do we take up residence? Why don't you remind everybody, just quickly, the Colesville Saints, those are the ones from Harmony, Pennsylvania, right? Right in that area. Yeah, so these are the knights, right? These are the knights that help Joseph, help assist Joseph in the work of translation. They first meet Joseph when, when he's engaged in silver mine and speculation. Yep. Yeah. And Newell, Newell Knight has this beautiful story where he's drawn, his heart is drawn to Joseph, and he has trouble praying vocally. And Joseph kind of takes him under his wing and just in this really sensitive way,

just ministers to him in such a delicate and beautiful way. And so he, Newell and Joseph really, really have this friendship starting in 1826, if my memory serves me correctly. And so the Knight family has always been interested in Joseph and his work, and they've always seen him as an honest seeker of truth. And they created a branch there. So when the church was organized, they created a little branch in what we say Colesville. But I want everyone listening to kind of attach Colesville and Harmony together because that's kind of where that group is. I think it's Hiram Smith, who's the first branch president of the Colesville branch. And then this group, the reason we want

to talk about this is because this group stays together throughout church history and all the moves. This Colesesville branch which people will go why are we still talking about them it's because they stay together yeah even i think through the trek west some of them yeah and so stephen harper says that there's just so so there's persecutions that are happening in colesville they're they're moving out of persecution but they're also facing persecution as they travel to ohio they uh step. Stephen Harper says there's just one person that doesn't make it. So you see this sense of unity. Speaking of the creation of Zion, the substance that they put in between them is love and compassion and care and concern. So they make it to Buffalo

Harbor, which is, I think, a moment where your listeners might enjoy a story. They make it to Buffalo Harbor. The harbor is frozen over, so there's no boats that can leave. And there's a couple of groups of members of the church that have gathered in the Buffalo Harbor. You have one led by Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph's mom. You have one led by Thomas Marsh, and one led by the Colesville Saints that are led by Newell Knight, if I remember right. And they get to the Buffalo Harbor.

It's all frozen in. And Sister Smith is just a spitfire, right? And she starts preaching in just really fantastic ways. Some of the laurels, some of the young women in the group, they're getting their flirt on with some of the pastor buys, right? And some of them are other, like they're just kind of rough around the edges and she just calls them to repentance. All four foot ten of her, right? I mean, she's... We're saints. We got to represent God, right? Oh, you're gonna love this this is my this is my anticipatory

statement you're gonna love this i i guarantee it she gets there um oh man she's so good at writing it's it's tempting for me to read like four pages here this will be appropriate for for our our particular context here we met the brethren from Colesville who had been detained a week in this place to wait for navigation to open. Since Mr. Smith and Hiram were directed to be in Kirtland by the 1st of April, they had gone the remainder of their journey by land. I inquired of the Colesville brethren if they had told the people that they were Mormons. They seemed surprised at the question and replied, no, by no means. And don't you do it for the world.

For if you do, you will not get a boat nor a house. And here you must stay or go back. I told them I would let the people know exactly who I was and what I professed. If you, said I, are ashamed of Christ, you will not be prospered as much as I shall. And we will get to Kirtland before you. Right? This is like, this is the race. So check this out.

It gets better. While we were yet talking with the Colesville Brethren, another boat came up, which had on board about 30 Mormon brethren, and Brother Thomas Marsh was one of the company. He came to me and perceived the drift of our conversation, said, now before I share what he says, he's going to be the president of the Quorum of the Twelve. Okay, yeah.

This is not, I mean, he falls away and comes back. Like, he's got a storied life. But he says, now Mother Smith. And I almost think that she's probably like, don't you mother me, son. Right? Yeah, yeah. It's like, this is not the way to start. Does that usually work with your guys' spouses when you first say, calm down?

Right? Does that usually just go off great? Yeah, that now, now thing. Yeah, now, now. Okay, keep going, McLean. Now, Mother Smith, if you do sing and have prayers and acknowledge that you are Mormons here in this place, as you have done all along, you will be mobbed before morning can you almost hear the condescending condescending come on then she says well mob it is then for we shall sing and attend to prayers before sunset mob or no mob okay now here's the beautiful part of this story she lives

it right so she sends there's some people that some people that have been exposed to the cold. They're getting sick. There's little kids. There's women in her group. And she sends Hiram Page out into the city to try and find a room where at least the women and the children can go and receive some protection. And she says to him it might be difficult just to let you know from what i heard to these faithless from these

faithless home skillets it may be difficult y'all so she kind of preempts it a little bit and higher page doesn't have success and then so he comes back and and you you can you know what's going to happen next don't you knowing sister smith she says well well i said i will go myself and see what i can do for you and a room you shall have if there is a possibility of getting one on any terms whatsoever so here's the miracle of what she does. She goes into the community. She talks to the first innkeeper. The innkeeper says, yeah, I got a room for you. And then another tenant says, no way, like no way. They're not coming here. They could be sick with who knows what. They're not coming here. And Sister Smith, she says, never mind.

It's no matter. I will go somewhere else. I presume I can get another room just as well. And then the lady that's kind of being a pill says, no, you can't though. For we hunted all over the town and couldn't find one single room until we came here. So, I mean, just a sad moment, right? What is she feeling between, what is she putting in the distance between people? Clearly not love. So, she goes to the next inn and she says to the proprietor, do you have a room? It's a cheerful old lady. She's nearly 70 years of age. Sister Smith's like, we'll pay anything.

We just need a room. The woman says, well, I don't know. Where are you going? To Kirtland, I said. What be you? That's a cool question. Be you Baptists? And she says, no i we are mormons mormons she said in a quick but low and good natured tone why i never heard of them before what be they i told her we did not this is this is like this is president nelson's gonna love this when he listens to the podcast he's gonna make a comment like hank this is beautiful This is my favorite part. Yeah. I told her that we did not acknowledge the name, but the world called us so. And I said so that we might know who we were, but our proper name was Latter-day Saints.

Isn't that like, yeah. Here we go. Anyway, she says, Latter-day Saints, said she. I never heard of them before. Sister Smith said, I am the mother of the prophet who brought forth the work and translated the Book of Mormon. What? She said with increased surprise. A prophet in these days?

Why, I never heard of the like in my life. Will you come if I let you have a room I told her that I wanted the room for the sisters who were with me but that I would come with them and stay that day with her you will come in and sit with me and tell me all about it I don't know why twas but just as soon as I saw you I felt as though I wanted you to stay with me and I could not bear to have you go away. They go, she goes back to the boat. She gets all the sisters. And then this happens. This, this woman says to her, now come and sit down with me and tell me all about what you were talking about. She stays up practically all night with this woman teaching her. right? And you know what an example,

speaking of consecrated life. And you know what? We're a people that believes in a present God, a close God, a miraculous God who is working in our lives, who we see every week in church. We see it with our neighbors. We see it with our neighbors. We see it in our communities.

God is active in our life. Instead of leading out with, oh, I am a Latter-day Saint, and to tell you the truth, it is a beautiful thing to be. We sometimes think, oh, I'm a Mormon, and then we let them react, or we say, I'm a Latter-day Saint. We let them react and then we decide how we're going to take the conversation. Yeah. Instead of us managing the conversation and saying, I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

And can I just tell you, we just had conference and I felt the windows of heaven open and God touch my soul. I know God lives, right? That's who we are. That's what we believe. No need to be timid. No, man. This is an exciting message. I love the idea of managing the conversation.

We had some brother come home in our ward who was recently a mission president, and he just walks up to people. You're new here. Do you have any friends? Would you like about a couple of hundred more? And just you should come with me. You should come with me to church. And I think that normal and natural way that President Uchtdorf has talked about, it's what you're talking about.

McLean, And I want our listeners to know where you got that story. I think I saw, was that History of Joseph Smith by his mother? Is that what you were holding? Just be careful. I mean, I'm not getting royalties, but man, be careful. This book may just change your life. Absolutely. It almost has a feel of the saints. You know, the saints volume is very readable um stephen harper the other editors did a fantastic job with it but yeah but it reads like that it just reads so beautifully and her language and her yeah the way she describes and it it will help for me i use it every semester in my classes but it but it helps my students to see

just why joseph becomes what he becomes. Yeah. You know. And who better, who better to tell you about someone than their mother. Yeah. Right. Then their mother. Yeah.

It surprises me when people say, well, it's his mom. What does she know? It's his mom. This is a, this is a silly example. We,

about a year ago, we, we ended up moving homes and we kept our previous home. We started renting it out and we just got new tenants in. And they're the most wonderful people in the world. We love them. But on their rental application, they put their mom down as one of the references. And my first inclination was exactly like you just said, Hank. It was like, oh, yeah, the mom. Because, I mean, we all have moms. We all know moms. And my mom is like the greatest cheerleader in my life. But after a 15 or 20-minute conversation with that man's mom, I was like, oh, man, please rent my home. Because I knew exactly how that son was raised yeah right i knew i knew the the the principles that that mom was teaching from day one i knew and and that's what's going on here right i mean some people like oh yeah it's his mom and i i get that and we need to read it understanding that it's his mom but we also need to read it understanding it's his mom. Yeah. The most intimate witness of the restoration of Joseph.

Knowing all sides of Joseph as his mother. And is this the same story, McLean, where the ice kind of parts? Is there? Yes. Would you please? You're a great storyteller. Would you please tell us about, some people part the Red Sea and some people part the ice. So, you know, I need to, I need to, I need to throw in a disclaimer here. I've always wanted a voice acting job. Like, driving in the car with my wife when we were just dating, we'd be driving down State Street and I'd do infomercials for local businesses.

Saturday, Saturday, Saturday, Taco Bell, Taco Bell. And I'd just go off. And so you just need to know you are feeding, you are fueling a part of what I want in my life that may be unhealthy for my kids. I read the story to my kids and they're like, dad, could you please read it with a normal voice? Yeah. So, so getting back to the story.

So she has to rebuke some of the members of the church. Well, here's what she says. I found several of the brethren and the sisters engaged in a warm debate, others murmuring and grumbling. And a number of the young ladies were flirting, giggling and laughing with gentlemen, And this is what she said, quote, by your own unwise and improper conduct? You profess to put your trust in God, then how can you fail to murmur and complain as you do? You are even more unreasonable than the children of Israel were.

For here are my sisters pining for their rocking chairs, and brethren from whom I expected firmness and energy declare that they positively believe they shall starve to death before they get to the end of their journey. And why is it so? Have any of you lacked? Have I not set food before you every day and made you who had not provided for yourselves as welcome as any,

as my own children, even so, if this were not the case, where is your faith? Where is your confidence in God? Do you not know that all things are in his hands? That he made all things and overrules them? If every saint here would just lift their desires to him in prayer,

that the way might be opened before us, how easy it would be for God to cause the ice to break away. And in a moment's time, we could be off on our journey. But how can you expect the Lord to prosper you when you are continually murmuring before him? Just then, a man cried out from the shore. Can you get this image? I mean, this is loud. Like she is preaching loud enough for everybody here just then a man cried from the shore is the

book of mormon true oh he asked the right person that book said i was brought forth by the power of god and translated by the same power and if I could make my voice sound as loud as the trumpet of Michael, the archangel, I would declare the truth from land to land, from sea to sea and echo it from aisle to aisle until everyone of the whole family of man was left without excuse for all should hear the truth of the gospel of the son of God. I would sound in every ear that he would again reveal himself to man in these last days

and set his hand to gather his people together upon a goodly land. If they will fear him and walk uprightly before him, it shall be unto them for an inheritance. But if they rebel against his law, his hand will be against them to scatter them abroad and cut them off from the face of the earth god is now going to do a work upon the earth for the salvation of all who believe it unto the uttermost even all who call on him and man cannot hinder it. Yes. Right? Then she turns to the group of members of the church. Now, brethren and sisters, if you will, all of you raise your desires to heaven that the ice may be broken before us and we be set at liberty to go on our way as sure as the Lord lives, it shall be done. At that moment. They hear this loud thunderous noise.

The ice breaks. The captain of the ship says. Every man to his post. And they are one of two ships. That make it out of the harbor. And as it goes out. A man says something. To the effect of.

There goes the Mormon company. Here's the quote of there goes the mormon here's the quote there goes the mormon company that bulk boat is sunk in the water nine inches deeper than it was before and mark it she will sink there is nothing sure so there's so much of this animosity they're so sure that the boat will not make it to Fairport Harbor on the south side of the lake that when Sister Smith and the rest of the saints dock, they read of their own deaths in the newspaper. Are you kidding? Yeah. Wow. reports of our deaths have been greatly exaggerated the bystanders were so sure we would sink that they went straight to the office and had it published that we were sunk so that when we arrived at fairport we read in the papers the news of our own death right like sister smith sister smith is is so powerful you know it's almost like

it's almost like you're surprised that the whole boat wasn't taken up to meet the city of enoch you know yeah oh there you go love this we haven't we haven't talked enough about her, so I'm so glad you shared this story of them making this journey. Oh, I love it. From New York to Ohio. A strong, powerful woman who basically got up there and prophesied. Yeah. Right? All four foot.

I think she's like 4'10", 4'11". She's a tiny woman. Do this and the ice will break in front of us. I mean, this is the immediate context of section 51. The Colesville Saints eventually make it there a couple of weeks later. So then you get section 51 that really comes in context of all of these happenings, right? So you got to remember that the context of this is a very practical view on living and life. But you can never lose the root of consecration and the root of consecration

being love and acknowledgement of God that he provides us with all things and the idea that we must elevate our views of all mankind and love, right? I mean, this is, and so they put in place these structures that help them to formalize the care for the poor, right? And so you can see things like verse two, it must needs be that they be organized according to my laws, if otherwise they will be cut off. Wherefore, let my servant edward partridge and those whom he has chosen in whom i am well pleased appoint unto this people

their portions every man equal according to his family according to his circumstances and his wants let my servant edward partridge when he shall appoint a man his portion given to him a It's this language of, we're going to give you stewardship. And one point Joseph says private stewardship, right? Private stewardship. So that you have something to manage that you can be anxiously engaged about the building of Zion and the establishment of, of the storehouse that, that, that comes in these later verses. And, and I loved in verse nine, he's the Lord is saying, this will work if you're all honest, right? If you're honest and alike and receive alike, um, and be and be one, because so many people,

I think the first thing you hear this idea of, oh, we're going to donate and take, and then all of a sudden the greed comes in of, well, who's stopping who from just taking more? And the Lord saying, you are, you are stopping yourself. This will work honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Let me share a little bit. So verse 3, as you compare this with the Joseph Smith Papers and some of our earliest records of this revelation, there's two things that are different about this revelation. Verse 3 actually has a portion that we don't have. So there's something that's been removed. And verse 5 is added later. It comes, it's in print in the 1835 edition,

but it's not in this original revelation. So let me just read to you some of the original in verse three. Wherefore, let my servant Edward Partridge receive the properties of this people. This is the new stuff. Receive the properties of this people, which have covenanted with me to obey the laws which i have given and let my servant edward receive the money as it shall be laid before him according to the covenant and go and obtain a deed

or article of this land unto himself for i've appointed unto him to receive these things and thus through him the properties of this church shall be covenanted unto me wherefore let my servant edward partridge and those whom he has chosen which actually end up being isaac morley and john coral in whom i am well pleased appoint unto this people their portion every man alike according to their families according to their wants and needs so you get even some more of this practical element of these revelations. Like this is how we're going to manage this. Then later, as Edward Partridge moves to Missouri, this basic idea of we're going to take the money from the members of the church,

we're going to buy land for them to gather to in Missouri. And then we're going to divvy out private stewardships. Some people are going to have more money and land to give. And they're going to receive eventually a smaller portion than what they donate. Right? I mean, at least that's the idea behind this. They're going to receive eventually a smaller portion than what they donate. Right. I mean, at least that's the idea behind this. And so this man named Bates, his last name is Bates. He donates $50.

He ends up leaving the church and he wants his land. He wants $50 worth of land, which to us is like 50 bucks of land. Right, yeah. He actually legally sues the church and seems to win this case. But this man, his name's Bates. And so verse five is actually added in,

which Joseph feels at liberty to do. I think one of the scholars that I go to on this is Stephen Harper, but even President Packer has statements about this. Joseph and the early members of the church saw these revelations as able to be continually massaged to come closer to represent the word of the Lord. Yeah. Tony talked about that in our very first episode. These are fluid, these revelations.

They can be altered and changed. They're not set in stone. So check out this quote from Joseph Smith. This actually comes from a letter that he writes to William Phelps. And he writes it in 1832. The historical background of the revelation is that he writes this letter to encourage record keeping, which is really a powerful historical context.

But he writes this letter. He ends up, it seems that he crosses this portion out. But he says, O Lord, when will the time come when brother william thy servant and myself behold the day that we may stand together and gaze upon eternal wisdom engraven upon the heavens while the majesty of our god holdeth up the dark curtain until we may read and record of eternity to the fullness of our immortal souls. O Lord God, deliver us in thy due time from the little narrow prison, almost as it were total darkness of paper, pen, and ink,

and a crooked, broken, scattered, and imperfect language and we get other places where joseph makes these these statements about the the the pressure it is to write in the name of of god and so so joseph is like well i've i'm gonna add to this because it's gonna better it's gonna better clarify what i was seeing and feeling and thinking and the early members of the church are they understand that and they're okay with it they know that it's going to better clarify what I was seeing and feeling and thinking. And the early members of the church, they understand that and they're okay with it. They know that it's the reality. And, you know, we, as members of the church, we should, all of us, men and women, should understand this, right? Men give priesthood blessings and we try for for me we try and give voice to for me mostly feelings

impressions feelings impressions feelings but but let's let's make sure that we understand that that this is not just a male thing right the doctrine and Covenants is very clear that we need to pray with the Spirit, right? We ought to be praying and be guided by the Spirit as we pray. And that's how prayer can be a conversation. It can happen as we pray. We can be prompted and directed to speak and act and say certain things. And so this should be something that all of us understand, this idea of we're trying to put in words the feelings that we have and the impressions that are coming as we pray. There are two things here that I think are absolutely beautiful

and incredibly applicable for us today. First of all, verse three talks about wants. Verse 13 talks about wants. Verse 14 talks about wants. There's this, this is kind of the beginning of this, the use of this term and this word. Verse 13, it could be even problematic for us, depending on how we read this and how we interpret these words. Again, let the bishop appoint a storehouse under this church and let all things both in money and in meat, which are more than is needful for the wants of this people, be kept in the hands of the bishop and let him also reserve unto himself for his own wants and for the wants of his family now i there's a reason why i haven't been called to be a bishop because i would be like check this verse out president stake president

i get a keep according to my wants um and man let me tell you, Tesla would be really fun to drive right now. But here's the important part for all of us to understand. The Doctrine and Covenants, like we've already talked about, is a book of sacred scripture that Joseph felt at liberty to massage in terms of word choice, in terms of verses. He adds verse 5 later, like he just adds it, right? And we've got to understand that, let me say it this way. Do we believe that God can send a perfect revelation or message to his prophet? I think we do believe that.

Do we believe the prophet has the capacity to perfectly receive that message? I'm not sure. I'm not sure if we believe that or not. Do we believe that a prophet has the perfect ability to communicate a perfect revelation that God has given to a prophet in word? I don't know if we believe that. I don't know if we believe that. I mean, even the Lord says early, early in the revelations, you're going to receive these as if from my own mouth in all patience and faith. That kind of implies... Section one, he talks about they come to an understanding in their weakness. So we do have some application here.

I want to be a little bit sensitive. Some people would probably say, yes, we do believe that. And some people would say, no, we don't believe that. I think that as a historian, I would say we don't believe that. We shouldn't. We don't believe that. We shouldn't. We don't believe the prophets. We shouldn't believe the prophets' perfect ability to perfectly understand a revelation and perfectly communicate it. Now, here's the complexity of that.

Even if we did believe that, language changes over time. I still remember saying to my grandpa, right? Like, man, that's sick. And grandpa's like, what? Someone's sick? Like, no, grandpa, that's sick, right? Like language changes over time. And this is a case, this is a really important case where language has changed. This is from Stephen Harper's book, but he said, the Lord uses the word wants four times in section 51. That word no longer means what it did in those revelations and others. The word want has undergone a major sense change in our society in the last 100 years.

Noah Webster published his great dictionary in 1828. That's a really good date for a reference for the restoration of the church. In it, we find the reverse of today's usage, the primary meaning he lists, and the next three definitions all deal with lacking or poverty or deficiency or necessity. Joseph Smith used the word wants and needs as synonyms. Perhaps by using both words in section 51 verse 3, the Lord means to emphasize them, or perhaps he intends to expand the idea of needs beyond mere necessities, it is most unlikely that he used want with today's definition, something desired, demanded, or required. Do you know what it reminded me of is the parable of the prodigal son who went into a far country and he began to be in want. And I thought that's that kind of a

usage. Let me take this one step further because I think it's really important for our readers to understand because you might think I am reducing confidence in scripture. That is not at all my point here in bringing this up. I think it actually helps appropriately place scripture in our religious life. So if someone was reading this scripture and didn't have access to some of Stephen Harper's work, he's written a fantastic article talking about communication theory and scripture. And this is where much of this comes from, we've got to read scripture with God, with the Holy Ghost, with the Holy Spirit, a member of the Godhead, to help us to make an end around. So I've kind of charted this out for you. God gives to prophet, prophet interprets,

writes into scripture, and then scripture is read by us. Well, we've got to have an end around. We can't just go back up the ladder. We've got to read the scripture, understand the historical context, but then make an end around and include God in our scripture reading so that he can help us to understand the nuance and the meaning. His initial impulse. And we call this exegesis and eisegesis in nerd talk.

But in order to appropriately make personal application eisegesis, we've got to understand the exegesis, what God initially was talking to them about in their situation in time. And so as we create eisegesis with the appropriate understanding of the historical context, it helps us to understand God's message and God's message to us specifically. Now here's one of those messages. So language and revelation in the scripture, this is one of the most beautiful things about the restoration for me. God is so committed to personal interactions with us. He asks us to pray multiple times a day.

He asks us to read scriptures, which after our conversation just recently, right, just barely, that's an opportunity to interact with God. Not just mind information, but interaction, right? We partake of the sacrament once a week, another opportunity for interaction, right? And you see clearly God is trying to interact with his saints. This whole attempt at Zion, creation of Zion, is to get God to be with us and in our midst. Now, and you kind of see that in this section, but also come with me to verse 16 and 17. The Colville Saints are going to be moving to Thompson. They're going to begin

to establish themselves on Lehman Copley's farm. And very quickly, you know, Lehman Copley, Parley Pratt, Sidney Rigdon, they go up and they have this teaching experience among the shakers. And shortly thereafter, Copley invites Ashbel Kitchell to come back with him and teach the members of the church. There's a confrontation with, I believe it's Newell Knight, with Ashbel Kitchell and Newell Knight. Copley goes back to the Shakers. He's out. But Copley ends up saying, I'm going back to the Shakers, so off my land. Yeah. Yeah. But in context, people might think, well, God knew that. God knew that. Why didn't he just send the members of the church straight to Missouri? That's what he's going to do in a few sections later. Why does he just send them straight through? Well, first of all,

there's something to be said about God treating us in our moments. He doesn't treat Leman Copley poorly because of what Leman Copley will eventually do. He treats Leman Copley as Leman Copley in the moment. And he says this is an opportunity for Leman Copley. He's going to learn. He's going to develop. He's going to grow. He's going to – and does he measure up?

Well, no, he doesn't seem to measure up, right? He goes back on his agreement and in a really fun entrepreneurial way, the saints, their original agreement is, come, I'll let you stay on my land. You can build me fences. You can plant my crops. You can even build some houses and it'll be perfect you know we'll we'll we'll exchange and then he kicks him

off the land and he's like well i'm gonna charge you 60 because you planted my crops you built my fence right and it kind of a twist but but check out what god says to the saints as they begin to establish themselves on copley's farm and i this is verse 16 i consecrate unto them this land for a little season until i the lord shall provide for them otherwise and command them to go hence but verse 17, and the hour and the day is not given unto them. Wherefore, let them act upon this land as for years, and this shall turn unto them for their good. Can we just spend a second dissecting those two thoughts? The fact that he wants them to act upon this land as for years. And then the next phrase, it shall turn unto them for their good. These are two powerful thoughts, I think.

And to be really honest with you, I'm really curious what comes to your guys' mind as you read, as you think about those two in context of the history. I was going to say, first of all, the Lord knows they're not going to be there long. Yeah. But it's not going to be – he's subtly – it's a little season, but you never know what a little season means with the Lord. He also says he comes quickly. Right, John? But also the idea of you're going to be a little bit disappointed in how this turns out. So just know beforehand, it's going to be for your good. It's going to be okay.

Yeah, I had marks to that act upon this land as for years, because I've heard people who have served in different colonies in the church and some who have to be kind of mobile, you know, institute teachers and seminary teachers who don't know where their new assignment will be that just say, you know, we just figure we're going to be here. And so we're going to do exactly that. We're going to act as if we're going to be here for a long time, put down our roots and everything, and then we'll see. but it'll be for our good. So that's why I marked it, because I know I've heard that thought expressed before. That is interesting you say that, John, because I've had moments in my life, and I know some others have well, probably have them as well, is the idea of, well, I'm probably almost done with this calling,

so I'm kind of going to let up a little bit. Right. And maybe the Lord's going, why don't you just perform in your calling? Like you're never going to be released. Yeah. And then I'll let you know. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. And, and, and think about, think about it in this way. This, this next phrase, this shall turn unto them for their, their good. I'm close to finishing the biography of Larry H. Miller. And he, at one point in his book, he's not being recognized for his work. He's kind of revolutionary, revolutionizing the auto parts business. And he basically stops giving work his heart. And if I remember right, it's his grandpa that says to him,

you better stop that right now. You have got to be, you've got to develop the character of hard work and integrity. This has nothing to do with what you get out of it. It is what you're becoming, right? And that I think is a really powerful thought here in this context. I think God is saying, act upon this land as for years, knowing well assured that they will be moving way, way quickly, very quickly, right? But he also knows that this is not a temporal thing. This is a spiritual thing.

And if they approach it correctly, it will change their very nature. And they will become more godlike, more divine, more fit for the kingdom, right? More used would I be, right? And so that has to be a part of what they're doing. That has to be a mentality. It has to be a mindset. Okay, now I did it. It's such an applicable principle for all of us in that sometimes when we don't see the fruits of the hard work we put in, sometimes we think, oh, I failed or that. Why did we even do that at all? It didn't help.

And the Lord's going, it did help. It did help that, you know. We've got Zion's camp coming up, you know, and look. Same thing. What they thought, but what really happened. Yeah. Yeah, Zion's camp is one of my favorites because Brigham, Brigham comes back and, and, and everyone's like, well, what good was that? Well, that was a waste of time. That was

a waste of time. And you, when you read Brigham's statements, first of all, it's Brigham, right? It's, it's powerful line of the Lord Brigham who says, I was well-paid, paid with interest to sit at the foot of the prophet. And it, and it just, and he says that from that point on, angels never watched Joseph closer, right? But how many of us in our life are asked, we feel like we're asked to do something from the Lord. And it just, the expectation that like, like the Edward Partridge expectation

is not met in any way. And we've got to have the faith of these members of the church to realize that we're building character. It's not always about the outcome that we think of. It's about the eternal outcome. It's about the character development. It's about more than that. It's about more than having a place to live temporarily. It's about a character that

they are going to need in Zion. Can you imagine if they approached Zion with that idea? Like, oh yeah, God told us that we're going to get kicked out of our homes. So we're just going to kind of, we're going to wait for that to happen. We're going to survive, right? Let's just put up the tent instead of, you know, cut down some wood. Yeah. Never plant the trees. Never, right? Never put up the fence.

Never cultivate the land because we're not going to be here that long. So this principle is absolutely crucial. You know, a student of mine at BYU had a serious impact on my life when she, she gave a, uh, what's called a student symposium message. Her name was, um, Annika. And she talked about, uh, she talked about going on her mission 18 months. She spends in Italy and she doesn't baptize a single person while her brother is in a country in South America and is writing to her going, we can't, I can't stop the flood of people that were baptizing here, right? Like, um, pruned fingers, right? He's like, I'm in the baptismal spot so much, my fingers are permanently

pruned. And she, she, um, she came to this, she came to this same realization on her own, that it's not about the outcome. It never was about the outcome. If there is an outcome, great. If there's not, that's not what it was about. It was about this, this will be for your good. This shall turn unto them for their good. It took her a while to come to it, but when she did, it was a powerful lesson for her to watch out for expectations and not to be so disappointed when the Lord doesn't meet my expectation. I've heard it's been attributed to Mother Teresa. I don't have it in print, but that she had said once, we are not called to be successful

in all things. We are called to be faithful in all things. We are called to be faithful in all things. And I've always loved that. Part of that conversion is about what you're becoming. I love that President Oaks, what was it, October 2000, The Challenge to Become, do you remember that talk? Yeah. Because I think we all have a little law of Moses in us that wants the check boxes and

focus on what do I do? What do I do? What do I do? And President Oaks was like, it's not so much what we know or even what we do, it's what we're becoming. And I always loved that idea. I love that the Lord drops them a tiny little hint in verse 16. So when they go back and they look at the revelation, they're like, oh, you knew the whole time. A little bit. This is the same one, though, who says, I come quickly. And he's been saying it for 200 years.

Right. Eventually, we're going to get to this idea of plant yourself. Act upon this. Act upon this land as if for years. Use your agency. There's references here to section 58. I'm not going to command you in all things. You should be anxiously engaged about many things and bring it past much righteousness without being directed in everything. You just use your agency, act and be a steward and as if for years, as if for years, right?

And the idea is the, I love this. Yeah. That the expectation isn't the point. It's the, the product, the final, whatever ends up happening at the end. That's not the point because they're going to end up leaving Missouri and they're going to go, what was all that for? And Zion's camp, I'm thinking of, you know, not only missionaries who maybe don't have a lot of success. I'm thinking of someone who's married for 25, 30, 35 years and then ends up getting a divorce saying, well, that was all a waste. And the Lord is saying, no, no, no, it was not. It was not a waste. Did I know that was going to happen? Yes, I knew that was going to happen, but it will.

I can turn this for your good. I can turn this investment you made for your good. So, oh, McLean, I think this principle that you found here in section 51 is, is, I mean, life-changing for a lot of people. I have a daughter who is going to, has been called to serve in Tahiti, but she's first going to Tucson in light of COVID and everything. And this principle kind of fits right there. We don't know how long she'll be in Tucson. What was the elder Bednar said? Look, it says you are called to serve.

And another phrase in your call says you are assigned to labor. The assigned to labor thing might change but you are called to serve that's the main thing and so act upon this land as for years uh we don't know how long she'll be in tucson um she'll be so she she needs to not pretend she needs to believe hey i might be here the entire mission i'm going to i'm going to act as if I'm going to be. What a great principle. It's a great principle. I was just talking to a return missionary just the other day here at the Institute. And they said that, you know, one of their siblings is doing the home MTC.

And she just mentioned that this has absolutely changed her whole family. Right. I mean, like, like it's, it's not just the MTC is no longer just about the individual missionary, but it's a, it's about the whole family and, and the influence that that can have in the home. And you think about Elder Bednar, isn't Elder Bednar that talks about home-centered, right? Like, like the, the, the home is temple prep and mission prep and, you know, and, and we need to do a better job of extending that um longer than just the three weeks or the the two months of of the official home mtc but but yeah beautiful beautiful thing that's a great changes families please join us for part two of this podcast