followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 60-63 Part 1 • Dr. Scott Esplin • June 9-15 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

How can we travel “speedily” without being “in haste?” Dr. Scott Esplin explores what it means to act in faith while addressing the myths surrounding the “destroyer on the water.” SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC224ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC224FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC224DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC224PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastDC224ESYOUTUBE: https://youtu.be/JUwHtXbGPfQFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 - Part 1 - Dr. Scott Esplin02:04 What to look forward to in this episode05:45 Scott Esplin bio08:32 Dr. Esplin’s Come, See the Place10:32 Hank on Scott’s doorstep11:13 Come, Follow Me Manual14:58 Anxiously Engaged waiting for the Second Coming16:42 Preach along the way20:27 Courage to move forward without haste24:37 Lessons from Jairus28:50 I’ll be happy when I am resurrected30:36 Deadlines on happiness and making time35:54 Should we buy or make a boat?39:19 “It mattereth not”42:28 Practicing Zion44:43 When you don’t receive an answer, show gratitude46:33 Canoe woes and LDS mythology49:23 Last Days Apocalyptic54:04 Church leader test57:55 Sometimes you need a boat59:56 Insignificant questions used to teach valuable principles1:00:39 Sharing the Gospel in Gospel Library1:04:36 Elder Stevenson and ways to share the gospel1:07:06 President Nelson and helping others on the Covenant Path1:10:02  - End of Part I - Dr. Scott EsplinThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika: Portuguese TranscriptsHeather Barlow: Communications DirectorIride Gonzalez: Social Media, Graphic Design"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Coming up in this episode on Follow Him. Tomorrow was our 20th wedding anniversary. She has this favorite wedding photo of ours where we walk out of the temple and I have this look of relief on my face. I actually went ahead with it. I'm not sure she was convinced I was going into the ceiling room with her. I look back now and I'm grateful that God gave me witnesses sometimes before and sometimes after I made a decision. He wanted me to act. As I acted in faith, He gave me light along the way. But He waited for me to act in faith. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am

your host. I'm here with my co-host, John, by the way, who has a thankful heart in all things. John, as I was reading section 62, I read that phrase, I thought, John, by the way, 100%. I'm a distant relative of thankful Pratt, who you may have heard of already. I bet she reads that and thinks, oh, that's perfect. A thankful heart. She definitely has a thankful heart. John, we're joined today by Dr. Scott Esplin, who's been with us before. Scott, thanks for being here. Thanks John and Hank.

It's good to be with you. Thank you. We have been looking forward to this for a long time. Scott joined us four years ago for the Doctrine and Covenants and he's back. Wonderful, wonderful teacher and historian. John, when you think of the mission to Missouri that we've been talking about, the journey home, what comes to mind? This is a hard road. I don't know about you, Hank, but when I was on my mission, I had a mission handbook, a little, we used to call it the white Bible in my pocket. You just knew certain things

that you could do and not do. These sections about travel, about what to do when you're not doing missionary work exactly, and this is all so new. Maybe that's why we get so many sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, because they're asking so many questions because it's all so new. I have a lot of sympathy for these guys trying to figure out, now what do we do? Yeah. I remember not liking a certain apartment on my mission. And you look at these guys, they must have been camping out as they went, just around

the fire. Scott, as you've prepared for sections 60 through 63, what do you have for us? What are you looking forward to? Obviously, as you both mentioned, this is part of their mission to Zion. Backing up a little bit in section 52 of the Doctor of Covenants the Lord had told the early Saints Joseph and the leaders of the church they were to assemble in Missouri for the next conference of the church and if they were faithful it would be made known into them the land of their inheritance. This is reference to they're trying to locate Zion which they've learned about

in earlier revelations and in the Book of Mormon the new Jerusalem That would be on this continent. They're trying to figure out where that is They've been working on the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible and that's introduced them to the concept of Zion as they've worked through The book of Moses they were told go to Missouri and you'll learn where the land of your inheritance will be Previous to this some elders had already gone to Missouri We've already talked in earlier episodes about what's called the Lamanite mission. Oliver Cowdery and some companions had gone on an earlier mission to Independence, Jackson County, Missouri. They were told in their call that Zion was on the borders by the Lamanites.

That's already located at somewhere west of where Joseph then at this point lives in Kirtland. But in section 52, they they were told go to Missouri and they'll be made known in the land of their inheritance. The sections for today are the conclusion of that mission. They've been in Missouri for a handful of weeks. They've accomplished what they were sent there to accomplish. They've located Zion. They've dedicated a center place of Zion and a lot for the temple. They're ready to go home. As John and you mentioned, they have some questions about how this works as they go home. What should they be doing? What mode should they travel?

What I like about these sections is not only does the Lord answer their questions, I think it gives them a chance to practice some of the principles they learned while they were in Zion. We learn that Zion is not just a place, it's a people. As they are preparing to journey home and then as they journey home, opportunities present themselves for them to become a Zion-like people. In these sections, we can look at answers to specific questions that they ask, as well as principles about how they and we can become more Zion-like as we seek to establish Zion. We're going to look at questions about travel, questions about companionships, how big should

their group should be, should they go by water or land. The Lord's going to teach them principles about what does and doesn't matter to him. They're going to get back to Kirtland by the end of the lesson today. Things have happened in Kirtland in their absence that they need to deal with. The community they left behind isn't as Zion-like as maybe it needs to be. The Lord's going to teach them some principles about becoming Zion-like. This is the conclusion of a historical story of going to Missouri, trying to locate Zion. These sections are going to help the

Latter-day Saints become Zion. And that trip to Missouri, I don't think we can comprehend how far away that is. When we think Ohio to Missouri, we think of, oh, it's a long bus ride or a quick flight. But we're talking weeks, right Scott? Scott We're talking weeks and we're talking 900 miles, sometimes by water, sometimes by land. They're going to have a harrowing experience, not just physically, but also spiritually on their journey. And they're going to have an open vision of the destroyer riding upon the waters. It's a scary experience for them. It's not just around the corner. It's the far western frontier of the United States. It's a challenging mission. As you mentioned, the church is very young.

The church is 14 months old, 15 months old when this happens. These are people who are just learning how this works. There's about two dozen of them. It's an interesting experience. It's some fun sections that I love teaching on campus and also love studying because of the principles they contain. Speaking of on campus, John, can you tell us what campus Scott is talking about, what he's doing and give us some background information on him? Scott Espland is actually the Dean of Religious Education, Professor of Church History and

Doctrine at BYU. He's actually a native of Southern Utah, just like you, Hank. He earned both a doctoral degree and a master's degree in educational leadership and foundations from BYU. He joined the faculty in religious education in 2006. After teaching seminary and institute, his research interests include doctrine and covenants. Yay, that's what we have him. History of Latter-day Saint, education and covenants. Yeah, that's what we have in history of Latter-day Saint education and church historic sites. He's the author of numerous publications on these subjects, including an award-winning book on the restoration of Nauvoo.

He's married to Janice Garrett. They're the parents of four children. Tell us about your book about the restoration of Nauvoo. You mean like the rebuilding of the sites and things? book about the restoration of Nauvoo. You mean like the rebuilding of the sites and things? Yeah, the rebuilding of the sites, the acquisition of the temple lot again, and reconstructing Nauvoo as it presently exists. So it's a social history of interactions between members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and often Community of Christ who managed many of those sites for a long period of time, as well as local residents of Nauvoo, the residents of Nauvoo who aren't affiliated with either church and how they feel about our church coming to the area and restoring sites and the impact of tourism on a local small Midwest town and

the building of a temple. And it was a fun social history for me to work on. I love being at sites with people and I decided to figure out how we came back to Nauvoo. Hank often reminds me of how much older I am than him, but I remember traveling once to Nauvoo and seeing four white stone markers of the rectangle of the temple property and that was it. What a feeling to go back there years later and see the temple. Well, to hear President Hinckley announce it, that was a moment in general conference, wasn't it? And I've often wondered exactly what you're writing about it. How did the people here feel when all of a sudden there's this gigantic, imposing temple there? Well, you know, this is in the book.

When President Hinckley goes to dedicate that temple, they held the cornerstone ceremony at the beginning and you know getting ready for the dedication. They invited local residents including local officials and President Hinckley quips to the mayor, mayor we've changed your town. That's an understatement. The Nauvoo temple changed dramatically their town and it's a story of how did we come back and what impact did it have on the local community and how have those three groups really, us, the community of Christ and non-affiliated residents in Nauvoo, learned to interact in a shared sacred space? That's wonderful. There's a wonderful article that Scott wrote, John, called, Come See the Place. I just am fascinated by that idea of historic sites. Come see the place.

Well, you recognize that's the phrase that the angels give Easter morning on the morning of the resurrection, come see the place where the Lord lay. Theologically in the scriptures, we have support for the idea of sacred space and sacred place and come see the place where the Lord lay. Yeah. You can read all about places, but there's something about reading and then being there and going, wow, so this is where this happened. And the cool part with the internet, John, is anyone in the world can now go to the church history website.

They can take tours of these places. That's incredible. You know, I watched in general conference recently, you may have noticed in conference, Elder Gong showed a picture of him standing right next to the pulpits in the Kirtland Temple. The pulpits where the Savior would have stood when Moses, Elias and Elijah appear in the Kirtland Temple. Elder Gong showed a picture of him standing right in next to those pulpits, that power of place, that space being in the place where the sacred occurred. Come see the place where the Lord lay. So yeah, that's beautiful. John, he won't want us to spend a long time on this, but as the Dean of the Lord lay. So yeah, that's beautiful. John, he won't want us to spend a long time on this, but as the Dean of the Religion Department of BYU, it's a big job.

We know that Elder Holland once held that same position. Scott, how long have you been Dean of the Religion Department of BYU? I'm going on four years. I believe we teach the best content on campus and teach remarkable students. It's a lot of fun, great job, so thank you. You sometimes just go, do I really, is this really what I do for a living? I get to work with people like the two of you. So I get to work with great souls, so thank you.

And John and I both try to avoid causing Scott any problems. That's right. We do not want to be on the worry list ever. No. Yeah, but when I have been there, he's been very good to me, just so you know. You're fine. Scott, I was thinking about it as we were preparing. I think I met you, I think it's been 17 years. It doesn't feel that long. You've aged much better than I have, Hank. That's not true. I was interested in the religion department, John. I was interested in getting my doctorate degree at BYU. And here was this teacher, Scott Esplen,

who had done basically what I wanted to do. John, I showed up on his doorstep and said, show me the way. And he invited me in. Is that not crazy that I had the audacity to show up at his doorstep? One, that he invited me in and walked me through it. That was fun. That was a great memory.

Hey, I love that. Thank you. That was a choice memory. Been friends for a long time, both of you. So thank you. It's good to be with you. We love it. We are happy that you are here.

I'm going to read from the Come Follow Me manual. Start where you want to start and walk us through these sections. This is how the Come Follow Me Manual starts the lesson. In early August 1831, Joseph Smith and other elders of the church were preparing to return to Kirtland after a short visit to the land of Zion. It's kind of interesting they call it a short visit when it took so long to get there, tiny little visit, and it's going to take a long time to get home. The Lord had wanted them to preach the gospel during their trip and some of them did so diligently But others were hesitant they hide the talent which I have given unto them The Lord said because of the fear of man many of us know how these elders felt even though we love the gospel

Fear and doubt might keep us from sharing it, but the Lord is merciful He and this is a quote knoweth the weakness of man and how to succor us. Scattered throughout these revelations to early missionaries are reassurances that help us overcome our fears and shortcomings. I am able to make you holy. All flesh is in mine hand. I am with the faithful always. And he that is faithful and endureth shall overcome the world." I love it. They're doing the best they can and the Lord is here saying, I am with you. Let me help correct you and give you some direction. All right. With that, Scott, how do you want to go about this? Do we need to go backward to set

this up? Yeah, we probably ought to go back just a little bit to sections 57, 58, 59. We can if you'd like to. Yeah, let's do that. As you mentioned, they're ready to go home, but we probably ought to go back just a little bit to what they were doing in Zion in the first place. If you go back to section 57 of the Doctrine and Covenants, in section 52, they were told to gather for a conference. So they arrive in mid-July of 1831 on the far western edge of the United States in far western Missouri. Joseph has three questions. They're listed in the section heading for section 57. When will the wilderness blossom as a rose? Where is he getting the idea that the wilderness needs

to blossom while he's on the far western frontier of the United States? In another account about this experience, he says, I felt like it stepped back in time a generation. Joseph is from New York, New England, especially Western New York. And Kirtland, that's not terribly advanced, but it's certainly more advanced than Missouri was. He felt like he'd stepped back in time a generation. When will the wilderness blossom as a rose? I think he's also connecting that great prophecy from Isaiah as well there, that the wilderness will blossom as a rose. The second, when will Zion be built up in her glory? And then the third, where will thy temple stand unto which all nations shall come in the last days? So these three

set questions are heading to section 57. They're answered in part in the Revelation. In section 57, the Lord answers one of the three questions. He answers the where question on a lot just west of the temple in Independence, Jackson County, Missouri, the temple will stand. That's in verse three of section 57. But interestingly, he doesn't answer the when questions. These when will the wilderness blossoms arose? When will Zion be built up in her glory? And I think what the Lord is doing here, like he does in our lives, there's times in my life when he answers what questions much more frequently than he answers when questions. We've all wondered when is this going to happen in our life? Across scripture people have asked when questions, when will the second coming occur? When questions tend not to be answered very often by the Lord. In this case,

I think it may also be because it might be up to us. Building Zion is something that we have to do. He may say to them, well, you tell me when you're ready, when you've become Zion. In any case, the sections that follow then 58, for example, Joseph continues with the same theme. Well, you answered the where question. Thank you. But when the Lord gives, I think the only reference to when the only answer he gives in verse 44 of section 58, the time has not yet come for many years and what's many years to God many years to us how long is many years? But then surrounding it in section 58 He reveals principles for how to build Zion and among them are things like preaching the gospel a Couple that we're gonna talk about I hope in section 60 to 63 It says in section 58 verse 27 They should be anxiously engaged in a good cause and

do many things of their own free will and bring to pass much righteousness for the power is in them wherein they are agents unto themselves. Inasmuch as they do good they shall in no wise lose their reward. So their agency is enthroned, preaching the gospel is enthroned if you look over in verses 63 and 64. Let them also return preaching the gospel by the way. The end of verse 64, the gospel must be preached unto every creature. If we're going to build Zion, we're going to preach the gospel. We're going to learn how to use our agency. We're going to faithfully endure our trials. Joseph asked when Zion would be built and the Lord taught how it's going to be built. They continue, sections 59, on the Sabbath day the Lord taught how it's going to be built. They continue sections 59 on the Sabbath day, the Lord

reiterates the commandments and how particularly the Sabbath will help us become more of a Zion like people. And then Joseph's ready to come home. And so we're now at a section 60. It's all part of the same journey. I should have mentioned there's about two dozen of them that have made this trip in company with Joseph. The majority of them are ready to come home in section 57

It did list that a few of them should plant themselves in this place They're supposed to remain and be settlers, but everyone else is we're going back to Kirtland We're gonna walk the night or take a boat for part of the way But we're gonna go back to 900 miles to our families to our loved ones to the church headquarters That's where we are in section 60. So they've been in Zion, they've located the temple lot, they've dedicated it, they've learned how to build Zion, and now they're ready to come home. A couple of things I like about section 60, there's many in here, but as John mentioned, there's references here to preaching the gospel in verse 2. With some of

them he had not been well pleased, for they would not open their mouths and they hid their talents. With some of them, he had not been well pleased, for they would not open their mouths and they hid their talents. Apparently, we won't go back there, but in section 52, when they were told to go to Missouri, they were told to preach the gospel along the way, and some of them must not have done it. They were in their anxiousness to get there. They weren't preaching the gospel as earnestly as they might. The Lord rebukes them for that, then reminds them in verses 13, that on their way home,

don't do like you did on the way here. Preach the gospel better than you did on the way here. Don't idle your time. Don't bury your talents. You have a message to share. Preach the gospel. I think there's lessons in there for us. I think there's times in our lives where we get busy doing what we think is important and we forget what really is important to God, in this case sharing the gospel. The other thing I love about section 60 that we could talk about, there's references to time here. Look for example in verse 5, they're supposed to take their journey speedily in verse 5 for the place which is called St. Louis, but then in verse 8, but not do it in haste. Over in verse 14 again, thou shalt speedily return proclaiming my

word among the congregations of the wicked, not in haste. How do you do something speedily, but not in haste? What does the Lord mean by this? What are times in my life when I need to be more speedily, but not get too hasty? And those are things I think we should think about or talk about potentially in section 60. This is wonderful. What a challenge that would be to be one of those missionaries to open your mouth. I am assuming they have copies of the book Mormon with them? Presumably. I can't imagine why they wouldn't. The book's been published for a year and a half now. I'm kind of a task-oriented guy and if you tell me go to this place I'm more concerned about getting to a half now? I'm kind of a task-oriented guy, and if you tell me, go to this place,

I'm more concerned about getting to that place than what I'm gonna do on the way. Yeah. I love this context, thank you. I'm interested in this. They hide the talent which I have given unto them. I'm a New Testament teacher over at BYU, and that is a Matthew 25 reference.

I've given you this talent, then he comes back and says, what did you do with it? It's the one servant who says, I was scared. I knew you were difficult to please. I hid the talent in the earth. Interesting that he's relating that to missionary work. That's not something you usually do with that parable. That's a good point.

He does it again in section 62 for whatever reason. Again this group, they meet a group who had preached the gospel along the way, done what they were supposed to do. They're praised for not having buried their talent but for having shared their testimony. Verse 3 of section 62, you are blessed for the testimony which you have born is recorded in heaven for the angels to look upon. They rejoice over you and your sins are forgiven you." As we preach the gospel, as we share our talent, as we share our light, the blessings that come into our lives, the blessings that came into these early elders' lives

are remarkable ones. So there's the difference there. Those of us who are a little bit nervous to share the gospel, the Lord says, don't hide it, share it, it'll be recorded in heaven. For the angels to look upon you, that's a beautiful idea and kind of gives you some courage. I'm going to share. Scott, when you talked about speedily but not in haste, that was such a good question. Maybe you could explain to me, maybe I can turn the question back on you. What do you think that means? Go fast, but not too fast. I think there's times where the Lord wants us to move forward, but there's also something different about getting sloppy, getting careless. So I equate journeying speedily, moving forward, pressing forward. Don't just wait, go ahead with life. Get on your path and get after it. But then, I think sometimes we get hasty. We get sloppy in our actions.

I think back to times when I was a missionary many, many years ago. Moving speedily from appointment to appointment, from one opportunity to another, not just wasting my time. Staying focused on what I'm here to do. But then when I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing, staying in the moment, not getting ahead of myself. And I think that might be what the Lord is saying here. I see students sometimes on campus who are so anxious to get to the end of their semester. They're so anxious to get to graduation. They're so anxious to get to life will be better when I'm done, when I have my first job, when I have my first home, when I'm married, when I'm settled, when I have a family, when when I have my first home, when I'm married, when I'm settled, when I have a family, when I'm away from BYU, they miss out on opportunities along the way.

And I think this may be what the Lord is saying here is, I want you to move forward, choose a major, progress towards graduation, get married, start a family, take a career, but then live in the moment. As it relates to this principle, I think of something President Monson taught in general conference. He shared from the musical, The Music Man, he says, Professor Hill, one of the principal characters in the show, voices a caution that I share with you, says, you pile up enough tomorrows, you'll find you've collected a lot of empty yesterdays. I do think we need to move forward with life, but we don't want to get so hasty that we miss out on the opportunities that present themselves along the way.

The Lord's helping these early saints learn this principle. As they become Zion-like, move forward. Don't wait to be told in all things. It's not me that I should command in all things. He that is commelled in all things, the same as a slothful, not a wise servant. Move forward, but then don't get moving so quickly that you miss out on the lessons that happen in life along the way. Frankly, I think that's what happens in the next section.

In section 61, they were told to preach the gospel along the way, but they chose to go home by way of canoe on the Missouri River. To whom do you preach the gospel along the way in the Missouri River while you're on the canoe? Yeah, you're a catfish. You're a companion who keeps hitting you with his oar. They have this harrowing experience and then the Lord says to them in verse three of section 61, Behold verily I say unto you, it is not needful for this whole company of mine elders to be moving swiftly upon the waters whilst the inhabitants on either side are perishing in unbelief. I told you to preach the gospel. I told you to move forward. You got moving so quickly that

you got hasty. You missed the people who are perishing in unbelief around you. And so I had you have this experience to get you off the water so you could preach the gospel. I think that happens in my life. I think that happens in the lives of my students. We get progressing so quickly towards graduation, towards the end of a semester, We get progressing so quickly towards graduation, towards the end of a semester, towards whatever it is in our life. I'll be happy when we have children. I'll be happy when my kids are grown. I'll be happy when we have grandkids. I'll be happy when I'm retired. I'll be happy when always living in the future. We miss out on the people who are perishing in unbelief around us. I tell my students when I teach these sections in class,

I hope you're not moving so quickly towards the end of the semester, that you're missing that person in your ward who is perishing in unbelief around you. You might have a little brother or sister who is perishing in unbelief. You're moving so swiftly towards graduation, towards the end of the semester, that you're missing them. Zion-like people, I think, move forward with life, but don't let life move so quickly that they miss people along the way. If you think about the people you most consider Zion-like, they're people for me who do this. Don't just wait for life to happen, but then as life is happening, they still care about people. They don't let people who are perishing around them perish in unbelief. I think the Lord's teaching some interesting principles by this choice of words, journey speedily, but not in haste. You were going so swiftly on the waters, you were missing people. You missed the people, which is the point. One of those stories that I feel like presents such a dilemma is, hey, would you come, my little daughter, Lyth at the point of death? And while he's on the

way, but not in haste, journey speedily. Yeah, someone touches his garment and he's who touched me. And I've always wondered the father at that point, we need to hurry. Interesting dilemma. It must have felt like for him. I suppose Jesus knew exactly what was going to happen. Yeah, to bring in another present Monson thought, never let a problem to be solved become more important than a person to be loved. I think we can do this as church leaders. We're after a certain goal. So let's move quickly. Let's get through tithing settlement. Let's see how many families we can get through today. Or as mission leaders or missionaries, it's let's get our numbers up, let's get it.

And we forget we're working with people. When I've read these verses, I thought of the children I have taught to drive. Speedily, I have some that are too speedily. It's too much. I have one son in particular. Not in haste. Not in haste, right?

I have another child who I'm teaching to drive who's slow. Too slow. We're not moving fast enough. So when I hear speedily, I think gas pedal. Not in haste. I think brake pedal. You gotta have both to be wise. We do want to move forward, but let's not hurt people. I like

what you said there. Don't get so sloppy that not only do you miss out on people, you miss out on potential issues that you probably wouldn't have run into had you slowed down a little bit. Scott, I've noticed that in your leadership. Let's slow down a little bit. Let's slow down and take a look at what we're doing. Or someone like me is going, what are we waiting for? Hey, let's go move this forward. And maybe we're avoiding issues that we would run into if we don't think before we move forward.

There's interesting principles about timing all throughout the scriptures. Going back to where we started, Joseph asked a time question. He asked a when question that set all of this up. When will the wilderness blossoms or when will Zion be built in its glory? He's asking about timing. God's teaching him some things about timing. We move forward, but we don't get hasty. We don't miss out on people along the way. You reminded me about another verse in the Doctrine and Covenants, section 10 of the Doctrine and Covenants, which we've studied much earlier in Come, Follow Me. This is after the loss of the 116 pages of manuscript in the Book of Mormon translation. When Joseph gets his gifts back again, restored, the Lord sets up this principle, do not run faster or labor more than you have strength and means provided you to translate, but be diligent unto the end. He sets up that tension. Don't run faster, but be diligent. That same tension

is being set up in section 60. Journey speedily, but not in haste. How do I find that balance between speed and haste between, as you said, gas and brake pedal? Where do I find it? I think the next phrase in section 10 says, pray always. Through prayer we can figure out where the balance is for us. For some of us, for your one son, it might be more brake pedal. For another child, it might be more gas pedal. Each of us is going to be different. Maybe the Lord wants us to move more speedily towards graduation, again using my students as an example. There are probably some students on campus who have been there long enough they really should settle on a major and just move on. No, for sure.

Mom and dad would be perfectly happy on any of the seven majors you've already chosen. Journey speedily. There's others who are probably going too quickly, whose life could be blessed by taking a class that might expand their vision. Hey, have you ever thought about taking a class that isn't on your MyMap already, that isn't already outlined for you, an elective that might open your eyes to something you've

never seen before? Slow down just a little bit. Each of those people, each of those children of God are different. Through prayer, we can figure out which one we need to apply in our life. I think there's a valuable principle in section 60. Zion-like people learn and live in this tension of speed and haste and they apply the brake pedal and the gas pedal at appropriate times. What a great application. Kirtland is our goal. That's where we want to get to.

But don't go so fast there that you miss out on all of these opportunities. When you were talking about, oh, I'll be happy when, oh, I'll be happy when. I thought of my own grandmother who told me once when she was really tired, she said, Hank, I think if I was dead and in the spirit world, I would be happy. And I'm convinced there's people in the spirit world saying, you know, once we're all resurrected,

I think I'm gonna be happy. It's always the next thing that's gonna be the good part. Scott, wouldn't you say it's that way? Maybe the young parents listening don't love this. With children, if we don't stop and just enjoy our children sometimes, we're so, at least me personally, it's go guys, go, grow up, move. This sport, try this, this school, and all of a sudden, the time has passed.

I don't know if I enjoyed my time, just being, just being. My wife and I joke about this. We'll say, you know, some day we're gonna miss this, but today is not that day. Yeah. When something happens with our kids. Today is not that day is the phrase we will use.

But there will come a time when I'll look back and say, man, I'd give anything to have not been so hasty. I was so anxious. I wanted to get to here. I wanted to get to there. And I'll look back and wonder, someday we'll miss this. This is such wisdom here. I think of my own students who are looking to get married, and they find someone they want to get married to,

and that person wants to marry them, and sometimes it's, wow, we're going fast. It's okay to slow down a little bit. And then others, you're like, are you going to get married? Are you going to move forward? Are you going to date? The whole idea of putting deadlines on your happiness, or as soon as this, as soon as this, it just reminds me of Nephi's profound statement when he finally has to split from everybody else. It says, it came to pass we did live after the manner of happiness. It wasn't we finally got to happiness. It wasn't a destination, it was a way of life. And figuring out that,

as you said, tension speedily and not in haste maybe is that manner of happiness. I really like that. The Lord even says in verse 13, don't idle away your time. So it's not don't sit and do nothing, but it's also don't go so fast that you get to the end going, I missed the journey. And like you were saying, John, this is a manner they were thinking initially on this trip about Zion as a place. These sections are helping them reframe. It's just as much a process as it is a place, Joseph. Part of that process is learning this manner of happiness. I used to serve with a gentleman. He told me this story. I think if I remember right, I think he told the story. I think it was of Elder Scott, where Elder Scott would, if the story is correct, take time for people. He would visit with them, take time for people, and he says, I watched him once, take time for people. And then I watched as he went the next place he had to be and he was running in the parking lot. He was late, but he didn't want the people he was spending time with to know that he was in a hurry. We took time for them,

then ran and made up the difference. I watched this in my friend who I served with. He was a busy father, stake president, later general church officer. When he was a stake president in a YSA student stake, he would just sit on the couch in the foyer of the student stake center. He would just sit there. Students would come up to him and they would say, oh, president, I'm sure you're so busy. You don't have any time. He says, No, I've got all the time in the world. I'm just sitting here. What do you want to talk about? It was his way of signaling to his members, I'm not so busy that I don't have time for you. That's a principle that's contained in these verses. As we serve others, as we work with God's children, don't be hasty in that process. Give them the time they need. You'll make up the time in other ways. You'll speedily move from one place to another. But then when you're in the moment with a person, don't make them feel like they're rushed.

Don't make them feel like they're just a problem to be solved. They're a person. They're a child of God. And he wanted to signal that. So he would just sit on the couch in our student stake center, wait for a student to come say to him,

I'm sure you're too busy to talk with me. He said, no, I'm actually not. I'm just sitting here on the couch, wondering if anyone wanted to talk, because he wanted to care about people. I can be a witness of that Elder Scott principle. I met him when I was a college student down at Utah Tech, it's called now. He was setting apart my father-in-law, my girlfriend's father at the time, but who's going to be my father-in-law as a stake president. I was very excited to meet an apostle. I went over and said hi and he asked me my name and I said hello and he was so kind and gentle with me. Well then the man who ends up being my father-in-law invites me to come back with him and his family for the setting apart and a

little bit of meeting with Elder Scott. Elder Scott, he remembered my name from four or five hours earlier, shook my hand and I still remember this. He said, Hank, thank you so much for coming back to say hello again. I almost thought, well, you're welcome, right? Elder Scott, really glad I could do that for you. It was really about people. He had a lot to do. He was very busy, but it became about people. I was sitting in the Marriott Center with my friend Kurt.

We had just listened to Elder Neal A. Maxwell. Hank, you are a toddler. I'm just sitting with Kurt and we're just talking about how awesome that was and talking the gospel. And Elder Maxwell had moved off the little podium there in the Marriott Center and was talking to people. We just kept talking and at one point we looked down.

There were three people left in line. I was like, Kurt, you want to go down? We ran down. Elder Maxwell extended his hand. He said, thank you for waiting to come and talk to me. Hank, I did what you did. I went, you're welcome. You're welcome. It's nice to meet me, isn't it? But I mean, thank you, thank you. So, how gracious. I'm not expecting every church leader to be able to do that. That night Elder Maxwell did. What a disciple.

What is Zion like person? That's what I think Joseph is learning here. You want to know when Zion's going to be built? Well, here's one of its principles. Zion like people care about people and they have time for people. They move on with life, they don't idle their time, they journey speedily, but then when the time is right, they pause for the woman who touches the hem of a garment. They pause for a person who comes and wants to talk to them after a meeting. They have time for an individual, then they move on to their next place, then they take time again. And that balance between speed and haste is something they're learning in this section.

Wow. Scott, I think we could talk about this all day. It's a beautiful principle that I've never seen before in this section. If you want to look at another principle, this one will bridge us to a couple of other ones. I love verse 5 of section 60. I've always smiled at this one. Verily I speak unto you concerning your journey into the land from whence you came. Let there be a craft made or bought as seemeth you good. It mattereth not unto me. Someone must have asked the question, should we buy a boat or make a boat? Earlier in the Doctrine and Covenants, says the Lord used the phrase,

it mattereth not to me. But it's not something they had asked. In that case, it was in the sacrament, it matters not whether you eat or what you drink. This is section 27 of the Doctrine and Covenants. But it wasn't something they had asked. It was something God chose to teach. Here, they asked a question, as far as I can find, for the first time in the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord isn't answering their question directly. It mattereth not to me. What do you mean it doesn't matter to you? And then you go over to section 61, which we'll talk about in a minute. In section 61,

they have this harrowing experience on the waters. Their boat nearly capsized. They nearly drowned. The Lord teaches them the dangers of the waters and warns them about waters. And then in verse 22, he uses it again. It mattereth not unto me after a little, if it so be that they fill their mission, whether they go by water or by land. What do you mean it doesn't matter to you? We just nearly drowned. And in back to back sections, he's used a phrase he never uses in the Doctrine and Covenants. And then he does it again in section 62. This is the one maybe I smile the most about. You've already referenced it in verses 5 and 7, first of all in verse 5.

Then you may return to bear record even altogether or two by two as seemeth you good, it mattereth not unto me. In three straight sections, I don't care if you make a boat or buy a boat, I don't care if you go by water or land, I don't care if you go in a large group or pairs. It doesn't matter to me. In verse seven, he even throws in this idea. I don't care if you want to ride on horses, mules, or chariots. I've always wondered about that phrase.

Where are they going to find a chariot in the middle of Missouri? Over at the Egyptian museum. Exactly. What are they doing there? But this phrase doesn't appear in the Doctrine and Covenants until they go to Zion. In Zion they were told, it's not me that I command in all things. He that is compelled in all things, the same as the slothful and not a wise servant. The power is in you, your agents unto yourselves.

Now when they're asking questions, the Lord is answering them differently. It mattereth not, it mattereth not, it mattereth not. I think there's a principle there as well. Zion-like people learn to check with God for sure, but they don't wait to be told all things. They're agents. They act. Elder Bednar and others have taught the power is in us, agents unto ourselves, power to act. Joseph is learning. Zion-like people take time for people. Zion-like people aren't commanded in all things. They make decisions. There are some things where God may say, it really doesn't matter.

Just move forward. It really doesn't matter what major you choose. Just choose one. It really doesn't matter what school you go to. Just go to one. It really doesn't matter between that job or the other job. Just get one. There's times in our lives where this, it mattereth not to me, is how we become Zion-like.

It's almost as if he's saying, remember what I said? I said, do many things of your own free will. Thank you for checking. Move forward. I do want to be careful. I think there are things that may matter a lot to us. When God says it mattereth not to me, that doesn't mean it shouldn't matter to us, of course. My wife knows this. I think about dating and getting married. Some people seem to have really clear answers who they're supposed to marry and that they're supposed to proceed. Others, I think God wants us to step out into the darkness and move forward with a little bit of faith. And tomorrow was our 20th wedding anniversary. She has this favorite wedding photo of ours where we walk out of the temple and I have this look of relief on my face. I actually went

ahead with it. I'm not sure she was convinced I was going into the ceiling room with her. I look back now and I'm grateful that God gave me witnesses sometimes before and sometimes after I made a decision. He wanted me to act. As I acted in faith, He gave me light along the way. But He waited for me to act in faith. And I think that's part of this principle here. Do you remember Hank when we had Tyler Griffin on? He talked about the way that the Lord dealt with Mahanraya Moriankar, the brother of Jared. And now they're kind of like three different answers. What do we do for air? Okay, make a hole in the top, make a hole in the bottom, the whole water comes in, stop up the hole, direct instructions. Okay, what do we do for light? And the Lord said,

what will you that I should do for you that you may have light? Go figure it out, learn by your own experience. Maybe some of these things we're talking about are like that idea. That doesn't matter. Use your judgment that I gave you. What's the Lord's law of learning? They'll learn by their own experience. I like that idea too. I actually have a quote from then Elder Oaks that I've always enjoyed. He said, no answer is likely to come to a person who seeks guidance in choosing between two alternatives that are equally acceptable to the Lord. There are times when we can serve productively in two different fields of labor. Either answer is right. Similarly, the Spirit of the Lord is not likely to give us revelations on matters that are trivial.

I once heard a young woman in a testimony meeting praise the spirituality of her husband, indicating that he submitted every question to the Lord. She told how he accompanied her shopping. He would not even choose between different brands of canned vegetables without making his selection a matter of prayer. And then Elder Oaks kindly said, that strikes me as improper. I believe the Lord expects us to use the intelligence and experience He has given us to make these kinds of choices. When a member asked the Prophet Joseph Smith for advice on a particular matter, the Prophet stated, it is a great thing to inquire at the hands of God or to come to His presence.

We feel fearful to approach Him on subjects that are of little or no consequence. Well, that Joseph Smith part seems to sound counter, but I like the story about the Can of Beans. Should I go Del Monte or Great Value? And I think that's what they're doing. And I don't fault them. The church is a year and a half old. None of us do. That's exactly right. Yeah, this is brand new and they're asking about everything. Amazingly, sections come that way. Until they make this trip to Zion, and then there's something about having been in Zion that all of a sudden shifts this. Now that I've taught you the principle, I'm going to give you the chance to practice it.

It's the words you just said, John, in section 61 verse 22, one of the uses of the matter of thought. You'll notice it ends the section with with according to their judgments hereafter. Use your judgment. And then if you go over to 62, what I do like about this section is after saying that it doesn't matter, he actually does say what does matter to him. If you look in verse 5, we already read this verse, but it says, ye even altogether or two by two as seemeth you good, it mattereth not to me, only be faithful and declare glad tidings. I don't care if you go in a large group or I don't care if you go in pairs, but I do care if you're faithful. I do care

if you're sharing the gospel. Then the verse we start our entire conversation with in verse seven, if you go by horse, mule or chariot, I don't care as long as you receive it with a thankful heart. I care if you're grateful, I care if you're faithful, and I care if you're sharing the gospel. These things I care about. What type of car you drive, whether it's a horse, a mule or a chariot, I don't really care.

Whether you go by water or land, I don't really care. Whether you go in a big group or a small group, I don't really care. But I do care about faithfulness, gratitude, and sharing the gospel. I like how you clarified. The Lord isn't saying I don't care about you. And you just showed us the things that I care about really affect you. These other things, I want you to choose. I want you to move forward.

That does seem like a little bit of a growth from where they've been. Something has changed in the Doctrine and Covenants here, I believe. Up to this point, as I mentioned, this phrase is never used, with the exception of Section 27, when there's an episode involving the sacrament. Now the Lord in back-to-back-to-back sections sections uses it after having empowered them in Zion. Sometimes we can get paralyzed. I've seen my own students do this. I've seen adults do this where if I don't hear from the Lord, I won't do anything.

I won't move until he tells me what to do. I think the Lord is saying move. I like what you said, Scott. Just keep going. Make a decision. Move forward. We've referenced Elder Scott. What do you do when you have prepared carefully, have prayed fervently, waited a reasonable time for a response, and still do not feel an answer?

You may want to express thanks when that occurs, for it is evidence of his trust. Now I'll pause there. That's almost never where I go. I've not gotten to the point where I'm grateful for no answer, but that's where Elder Scott is. I love that. Then he continues, when you are living worthily and your choice is consistent with the Savior's teachings and you need to act, proceed with trust. As you are sensitive to the promptings of the Spirit, one of two things will certainly occur at the appropriate time. Either the stupor of thought will come indicating an improper choice or the peace or the burning of the bosom we felt confirming that their choice was correct. When you are living righteously, interacting with trust, God will not let you proceed too far

without a warning impression if you made the wrong decision. I think there are times when if we need to make a decision, we move forward speedily. Then don't get too hasty because the answer may come as we're moving. He's just simply waiting for us to act. He wants us to move forward. They're maturing spiritually and you can tell at first he was okay with maybe this kind of thing and now he's saying look we're moving along, we're advancing. I love that idea. Reminds me of something President Mary G Romney said a long time ago, he said you can't expect God to guide your footsteps unless you're willing to move your feet. You commit to a course of action, you start moving, and if you're going the wrong way,

He'll stop you. But it might be, this is just fine. He just wants you to get moving. I've heard it said God doesn't steer parked cars. Your kids, they break too much, you're gassed too much. That's what I was going to say since we're talking about cars today anyway. Scott, this has been absolutely fantastic. You have shown us things that I can use today, right John?

Absolutely. I can use them speedily, but not with haste. Let's keep going, Scott. What's next? I think as they continue on their journey, we should look maybe at 61 for just a minute. In section 61, they continue down the Missouri River. They come to this place called McElwain's band a couple of days into their journey. In the section heading it says, on the third day of their journey, many dangers were experienced. Joseph nearly drowns. Their canoe hits a submerged tree in the water. They're terrified. They have this life-threatening experience on the waters. Then following up upon it, William W. Phelps, as it says in the section heading, in a daylight vision, saw the destroyer Then following up upon it William W. Phelps as it says in the section heading,

in a daylight vision saw the destroyer riding in power upon the face of the water. So it's harrowing both physically and spiritually for these elders. They get off the waters. They want to know what's going on. This section is given, as I've taught Doctrine and Covenants over the years, it tends to be one of the more misunderstood sections in the text. I think there's a lot of mythology that grows out of potentially this section. People wonder, is this why we don't do this? We don't do that as missionaries, whatever the case is. And I think the Lord teaches some important principles that we might want to look at in

the section. We've already talked about verse three. I think one reason why he has them have this experience or get off the waters is so they could teach the gospel. They're missing people along the way. But I also like how the section in the very first verse begins, Behold and hearken unto the voice of him who has all power. When I was younger, I used to love reading and studying the stories of Greek mythology.

This isn't a Greek mythology model where one person gets one power and one God gets another power and one God gets this power. And so one God is in charge of the water and one God is in charge of the weather and one God is in charge of love and another one's in charge of war and another one's in charge of messages. And God has all power. We ought to acknowledge this isn't a section where God seems to be saying, well I've got the land, the devil has the waters, I can't help you here. I like how the section begins. God has all power. Yes, there are dangers on the waters. He's going to go on to describe those dangers. But I think we should acknowledge God is all powerful. That's how the section began. He does have all power. He can help people on the water. We sing about that. Master the Tempest is raging. We have hymns. We have scriptures. We have times where God controls

the elements or the Savior walks on water, controls the water. I wouldn't want to somehow create a false notion here that our Heavenly Father or Jesus Christ has land and the adversary has water. That's not, I don't think what's going on in this section. The first verse in and of itself is very clear on that. God has all power. We use water in the sacrament. We baptize people in water. This isn't why missionaries don't swim or whatever the case is. Right. There's other things going on. Now what are some of those other things in the section? If you look in verses 14, 15, 16, 17, the Lord uses very specific phrases here. You'll notice in these verses, it's almost always last days references,

end of days, apocalyptic. You'll notice in verse 16, behold I the Lord in the beginning blessed the waters but in the last days by the mouth of my servant John I cursed the waters. The days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters. It shall be said in days to come. None is able to go up to the land of Zion upon the waters, but he that is upright in heart. Then in verse 17 again, I the Lord in the beginning cursed the land, but in the last days have I blessed it. This last days, end of days, references to the apocalypse. That's probably what we're talking about with water here. References that exist in the book of Revelation or other places to signs and wonders on the waters.

Not just this is why missionaries don't swim or whatever the case is. There's some apocalyptic things going on here. And Then if you look specifically over in verse 18, you notice he narrows it down to just these waters. I say unto you that Esha forewarned your brethren concerning these waters. The Missouri River was a dangerous river in Joseph's day. It wasn't easily navigated. There were seasons of year when it wasn't safe to be on the Missouri River on a boat. Some of these references in section 61 are specific to the time and the context in which the Lord is speaking. He's talking about the Missouri River system and the dangers that exist therein for someone who's traveling in a canoe. Then he fast forwards to last days things. This

is not just a God controls the land and the devil controls the water type idea. That's sometimes what the misunderstanding that I think exists when people study this section. But that said, it does teach some powerful things about our Heavenly Father. It teaches that He has all power. You look in verse 1, there's other things it teaches about Him. The Lord is from everlasting to everlasting. He is Alpha and Omega. If you look in verse 2, he forgives sins. He's merciful to those who confess their sins with a humble heart. If you look in verse 36, he is in our midst. He has not forsaken us. While there's potential misunderstanding in this section as people study it,

I think it teaches some powerful truth about who our Heavenly Father and who his Son Jesus Christ are and the powers and ways and abilities they have to help us in time of need just as these people had experienced a time of need when they were journeying on the water. And it seems like the Lord to say, here's a small thing you're dealing with, let's talk about that. Then let me teach you some larger principles. That seems to be part of his pattern. These larger principles, including his control over the elements, his all power, his omnipotence. Nanny does it again in the middle of verse 22. I've told you how dangerous these waters are, but in verse 22, you still need to make a choice.

I've warned you about the waters, but you need to decide how are you going to go? Are you going to go by water or land? Just know that you have much greater likelihood of drowning in water than you do drowning in land. That's what he's teaching them. If someone were to say, what do I do about verses 14, 15, 16, the days come of no waters? I think that's a good place to practice your scripture study, to go in and say, if he's not talking about water in general, what could he be talking about? If you're referencing the book of Revelation, that's a place where

you practice reading, like you said, Scott, apocalyptic literature and saying, there's more here than I'm seeing. I need to go slow and try to understand. And you can really have a lot of interesting insights when you do that. I think it's appropriate to do that because in verse 14, the Lord himself references John. It's not me who's making this connection. It's the Lord himself who says, he draws John into the conversation. By the mouth of my servant John, I curse the waters. That points us to John's writings.

That's where then you expand, well, what did John say about this? How did John teach? Maybe importantly, what don't we know about these passages? And let's not go beyond what we do and don't know. Yeah, it's a fun thing. I can already see myself going, oh, I want to go over to the book of Revelation now. Spend some time over there to see what, in fact, there's a reference in 14b, a place to start Revelation 8-10 and 8 through 11. We can't do it today, we've got a lot to do. I think this is a perfect opportunity to say, all right, I'm going to dig in a little bit and see what I can find. Scriptures usually pay off on an investment. You'll find that they'll,

what is it that Hugh Nibley said? They'll wear you out long before you wear them out. Another valuable exercise might be, go look and see how church leaders have used these verses. You could look and see how have these verses been quoted across time in general conference or other places. Some of these verses, like verse 15, for example, the days will come that no flesh shall be safe upon the waters. That verse has been used in general conference, especially in the context of warfare. be safe upon the waters." That verse has been used in general conference, especially in the context of warfare. There have been times in the history of mankind after this section where traveling by water was dangerous. So I've seen that verse used during the context of World War I, World War II, other times where traveling by water was challenging. And you might look to see how have

church leaders utilize these verses in helping us interpret scripture. Yeah, when the Lord says, you can't go up to the land of Zion upon the waters in the days to come, but he that is upright in heart. He doesn't say he that has a good boat. There's something about this that's more spiritual in nature than temporal telling us about the Missouri. Although he does seem to say, guys, the Missouri River is pretty dangerous. You'll notice in verse 23, the Lord tells them, don't go by the Missouri, go on the canal. The canal is a lot safer way to travel. It's not fraught with the dangers that the Missouri is fraught with. There's value in these verses about risk management. We shouldn't take unnecessary

risks. And that might then lead to a discussion of why do or don't missionaries do certain things. That may be a discussion more about risk and keeping focused on what our primary purposes are than the devil controls water or something like that. Love that. Yeah. That skill that you're doing is you've slowed down. You've looked at it. I love these waters. This is not all water on the planet. These waters are the waters I'm

talking about. And like you said later on, you can go on the canal. Well, that's water. Yeah, but we're talking about a different place. Now that these rivers, like the Mississippi, you guys have been there, the rivers are not exactly the same as they were back then. They don't have the rises and the falls like a tide and different times of year and everything like they used to and maybe they're safer now, I'm not sure, but I appreciate that. I like what you said in verse 18, warn your brethren concerning these waters. Your context is really helpful. Joseph Smith almost drowned. Well, I think you could see it. I didn't point it out, but it's actually earlier in the section

as well. Look in verse 5, there it is again. I, the Lord, have decreed in my nacre many destructions upon the waters, yea, and especially upon these waters. It's specific to the geography. We're not even thinking or talking about travel on these waters. I've seen prophetic uses of these verses referring to floods in this area. These waters overflowing their bounds and the catastrophic damage that's created the loss of economic loss and loss of life through flooding. And that's not people traveling on the waters. These are some big, big water systems that are prone to danger.

We sometimes forget that. Those of us who live in the West, some of the biggest rivers we see are nothing like the Missouri, nothing like the Mississippi. These waters are prone to flooding and damage. Some of that's been able to be controlled lately through flooding mitigation and other things, but even then in any given year there's going to be flooding up and down the Mississippi and Missouri riverways. Why do you think missionaries then are counseled about that? But you know, even in basketball, there have been some missions that have not encouraged

full court basketball. Yeah. So many sprained ankles. You think of other things, not just basketball. Missionaries don't typically fire firearms. They don't go snow skiing. They don't ride fire firearms. They don't go snow skiing. They don't ride horseback. Yeah.

It's putting them in unnecessary danger and it's taking them away from their primary focus. Okay. That's it right there. That's kind of the principle. As we mentioned, there are all kinds of places where people do need to go by boat. There are missions where historically you do have to travel from island to island or place to place, and you you're gonna be on the waters.

That's where I think the logic breaks down if you just assume well, the Lord can't help you on the water. How did the section begin? The Lord began with God has all power. I really enjoy sections like this where it's gonna take some time to go slow to read. Scott, you've done this obviously with these sections as a teacher and they do pay off if our listeners say, okay, I really want to understand this. I have done this, John, I know you have with Second Nephi 2. I have had to slow down, go line by line trying to follow Lehi's teaching. I think you can do the same thing here. I hope everyone will give this a try and stretch yourself a little bit.

Just because you don't understand what it means the first time doesn't mean there's not some beauty there. I've also learned to be comfortable with saying I don't know at times. There's verses in this section where I still don't know and I can live with ambiguity. I refuse to let the things I don't know hold hostage to the things I do know. I do know God has all power. I do know that he can and does help his children in time of need. Do I know all of the answers to this section? No, I don't. That's true of a lot of places in Scripture, but I can find truths here.

Scott, you've said the main point of this doesn't seem to be, let's talk about water. It seems to be what's important to the Lord. That you're teaching the gospel. In 61 people are perishing in unbelief on either side. You're going so swiftly on the waters. It's back to that principle of who do you preach the gospel to when you're in a canoe in the Missouri River? There's just only so many people you can preach to. I really like the way you're saying there's this verse and this verse but don't forget the main point of the entire section which is you're missing out on people you could be teaching. Then section 62 Joseph meets his brother and three others who had done just that who

would stop to teach people and they're blessed because of it. They did what they were supposed to do and they got blessed for it. In verse 2, Verily mine eyes are upon those who have not as yet gone up to the land of Zion. They missed the conference because they stopped to teach people along the way. They were blessed for it. That's the journey. Section 60, should we make a boat or buy a boat? Section 61, should we go by water or land? Section 62, should we go in a large group or a small group? These are what seem to be insignificant questions

that the Lord takes time to teach some powerful principles that can apply to our lives. The manual does something wonderful in talking about sharing the gospel. I can share my love and testimony of Jesus Christ. And the manual takes section 60 in section 62 and says, what messages from the Lord do you find in these? How did these messages build your confidence in sharing the gospel? And then it takes you to a section of the gospel library. I don't know if either of you have spent any time here. I have with a son preparing for a mission where you can go to gospel library and towards the bottom there's a tab called Sharing the Gospel. There are all sorts of resources including Preach My Gospel that say

let's help you share the gospel. You want to do it, you maybe don't know how, let's give you some hows. That was their challenge here. Sharing the gospel, I like to say it the way the scriptures do because I think it's beautiful. Sharing the gospel by the way. I just kind of like the way they put that there. How do you do that exactly? What words do you say? I'm grateful for that it'll be given you in the very moment that you need it. I'm reminded of a time I was in the Philippines. We noticed there was a tennis court in our town on preparation day. Elder Lewis and I went to buy tennis balls and a little lady just walked up to us, very bold, said, who are you guys? Why are you here? And I was like, why are you here? That's our line, you know?

Yeah. That doesn't always happen, but I was so thrilled because we ended up teaching, her name was Lordess. Lordess ended up joining the church and going on a mission. She walked up to us. I wish she didn't have to do that. I wish I would have said, hey, you know, I am wearing this necktie in the middle of this tropical heat, but I didn't think of that. Thanks for mentioning those resources, Hank. I was reminded too when Scott was talking about what has been said in general conference. So what am I going to say, Hank? What's that reference called? scriptures.byu.edu

Go click on these verses and boom! And somebody is working on the last general conference so that it's constantly updated every six months. Great scripture study tool to give us some insight. As Elder Uptorff has reminded us, sharing the gospel can be a very normal, natural thing. It'll be just part of your conversations. In fact, just as I was coming to this recording, before we hit record, I told John and Scott about this. I had a visitor at BYU. I was teaching my class and a student had brought a friend who was an evangelical Christian. She wanted to talk to me after class had some pretty pointed questions prepared for me.

It ended up being a really wonderful discussion. I learned a couple of things along the way that maybe I can share. One, going back and forth between scripture references is not a way to share the gospel. She wanted my answer to this verse and then to this verse and then to this verse. We used to call it Bible bashing. It is just not a way to share the gospel. Things started to feel good when I asked her about her faith. I said, tell me about your faith.

Tell me what you believe and why you believe it. Complimented her on that faith because I think it's a beautiful thing the way she trusts the Lord. And then the tone changed a little bit. The feeling changed between us. She started to smile and laugh and I was chatting and laughing and we ended up swapping some contact information by the end. Maybe that's how the Lord would have us share this good news. Instead of riding on the water, getting in your car and going so fast, stop and talk with people. Talk about faith. Talk about religion. Talk about what they believe. Make it a positive,

encouraging conversation. What the Lord said in this section is correct. I do think there are people perishing in unbelief around us. There's people all around us. Every day opportunities we have to share the gospel if we would in normal and natural ways. I was reading in Come Follow Me Manual this morning this quote from Elder Stevenson. Elder Gary E. Stevenson taught that proclaiming the gospel can be accomplished through simple, easily understandable principles taught to each of us from childhood. Love, share, and invite. In the example you shared Hank, and in all of our situations, maybe that's what Lord wants us to do. Love people, share, and invite them to come into Christ. That doesn't have to be

challenging or awkward or strange. It can be, as he says, simple, understandable principles taught since childhood. That's fantastic. I have found in my experience that going back and forth in some sort of debate of scripture, even if you win that argument, you still lose because maybe you created some bad feelings. My wife and I were listening to a talk called the missionary next door, Diana Holscher, it was so interesting how she talked at very good ideas of normal and natural ways. She said, you know, if you're a

teenage girl, it's hard to say to somebody, hey, I want to tell you about the law of chastity. But she said, it's a lot easier to say, hey, do you want to come to the chili cook-off at our ward? She had a whole list of normal and natural ways to share the gospel. It was really, really good. I'm also reminded of the power of everyday missionaries. He said, if somebody asks you, how was your weekend, don't talk about Saturday, talk about Sunday. I thought, what a great idea. I just said, oh man, we had the best lesson in elders' corn. Yeah. Yeah. What's elders' corn?

We learned this thing about one of Jesus's parables. I'd never heard, you know, President Uchtdorf, I think has helped us with that idea of normal and natural. Don't worry so much, just be you. Tell them, oh, this happened. This was great. Do you have any friends? Would you like to have a few hundred more? Come over to my ward. Do you remember, John, weeks ago, I think it was Steve Harper, who said, don't reduce souls to numbers, to baptisms. That's not what this is about. This isn't about, hey, let's get our numbers up.

This is about the worth of souls is great in the sight of God. Joseph Smith is going to say later, many are kept from the truth. They just don't know where it is. They don't know where to find it. President Nelson, I have slowed down as I listen to this statement because it's so good. Anytime you do anything that helps anyone on either side of the veil, take a step toward essential baptismal and temple ordinances. Even take a step. Even have a better feeling like you did today, Hank, about the church. Even taking a step towards that, you are helping to gather Israel. We don't have to start with the deepest things. We can be a friend.

This is what I do on Sundays. what do you guys do? That's the in essence section 61, preach the gospel, and they had an interesting experience the Lord gave them to learn that lesson. Yeah, get off the water. You wonder what the water would be like for us? Quit scrolling on my phone. Yeah, you're scrolling on your phone. While all this candy is being crushed, there are people perishing in unbelief on either side of you. That's an important one. This candy isn't going to crush itself. Coming up in part two of this episode. There's probably been times in my life when I haven't gone fast enough. For those who might know me well, I was into my 30s before my wife and I met and got married

and fell in love. I certainly had loved ones, family members, friends, fellow employers or others who wanted me to be a little more speedy. I spent a large portion of my early life maybe not going as fast as I should have. I learned from that season in life that I needed to move forward. I needed to act in faith that the power was in me. I was an agent unto myself.