followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 67-70 Part 2 : Dr. C. Robert Line

Episode Date: June 20, 2021

Have you ever felt pressure to raise righteous children? Or felt inadequate as you try to do so? Dr.  Robert Line continues and touches on the importance of parents teaching their children to understand the gospel. He reminds us of the fallibility of the church and its leaders and that God speaks to us through the small and simple things, once again emphasizing God’s mercy in our lives.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. With what we've been talking about, if we could go back to section 67, verse 13, to kind of complete this whole thing we've been talking about. Let's see, Hank, would you like to read that for us, verse 13? Yeah, 67, 13. Ye are not able to abide the presence of God now, neither the ministering of angels, wherefore continue in patience until you are perfected. Isn't that beautiful with all we've been talking about, you know, God's admonition,

not only to us individually, but the church too, and the restoration, right? You know, again, this infallibility narrative that we sometimes fall into, I think we need to be careful. And we individually, and even as a church, speaking of patience, continuing patience, you know what I'm hearing from a lot of people with all the changes the church has been making, and there's been a lot in the last couple of years, right?

I'm hearing, I minister teach to some older people in my ward, and I have acquaintances in the ward. And these are really, really good, wonderful people. I mean, salt of the earth people, former bishops, former state presidents. Some of them are very concerned, not only about what's going on in society, but how rapidly a lot of the changes in the church are happening. Yet, when I teach Institute and BYU classes, a lot of my very faithful young single adult students, sometimes they don't think the changes are happening quick enough. Do you see the tension between those two groups? And one of my thoughts is, boy, I'm so glad I'm not in the quorum of the 12 trying to hold on to this group and that generation and this group over here and that generation. I mean, but continue in patience until you're perfect. All of us, we need to continue. We need to be patient.

And the brethren, bless their heart, I see so many wonderful things going on in the church. And yet so many groups, oh, there's too much of this. No, there's too little of that. Yeah, I love that. I think I am, John, we've talked about this before, my patience problems. And the idea that—don't laugh at that. Sometimes in my prayers, I say, I'm ready for bigger miracles. I'm ready for angels and visions.

And I think the Lord is, all right, easy. You are not able to abide the presence of God now. Neither the ministering of angels continue in patience. And it's very a parenting moment of, I feel like I'm ready. And the Lord's saying, I know that you're not ready. So just slow down and keep doing what you've been asked to do. Because I'm one who jumps the gun. Let's move forward fast, right?

I just wanted to tell you something I underlined in verse 14. I just thought, wow, look at that. Look at that first phrase. Let not your minds turn back. As everything we've been talking about, I put my margin and this is an application of that. Not necessarily what exactly tied to the context and the people, but I'm looking at that going, don't dwell on the past. Let not your minds turn back. Everything we've talked about and repentance and moving forward.

And I just like that phrase. That's a great phrase, John. Regret focuses on the past. Worry focuses on the future. But focusing on what's right in front of us. My favorite golf quotation is the only thing that matters in golf is the next shot. So what do I do today? The next shot.

What do I do today? Let not your minds turn back. Yeah, you got the bogey. But what's right in front of you right now? And you see this in the gospel, kind of like you said. It's verse 14. Let not your minds turn back. What did Christ say in the New Testament?

He says, no man having put his hand to the plow and looking back is worthy of the kingdom. But then he says, on the other hand, take in the Sermon on the Mount, take no thought for the morrow. If I could add something, because I went right to it before you said it, I went to the last verse of Matthew 6 in the Sermon on the Mount. Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Well, in our King James, the take no thought, you look down below, it's spoken earlier in Matthew 6, and it says anxious concern. So I was reading a book years ago called How to Stop Worrying and Start Living, because I'm an expert in worry. I'm really good at it. And the Dale Carnegie dude wrote this book, and he pointed out something that I have verified since, that in the King James translation, it says, take therefore no thought for the morrow,

but take the NIV, the American Standard, take a bunch of the other reputable New Testament translations, the word is not thought, it's worry. Worry, yeah. And our Bible changes it to anxious concern. Of course you think about tomorrow. That's very President Monson. You make plans and goals, right? You have to.

There's a great verse in 1 Nephi 16 that S. Michael Wilcox pointed out to me once, where the daughters of Ishmael, their father dies and they're mourning exceedingly, which is okay. That's in front of you. That's present. They're mourning exceedingly. And then Nephi adds, and they get upset because of all the sufferings they've had in the wilderness. And because they're bringing up all their past problems and now all their present problems, they start to predict the future. It's in 1 Nephi 16, they say, and we must perish in the wilderness with its future, which never happens. They're now suffering for future trials that are never going to happen. This is 1 Nephi 16, verse 35. Good point. Really good point. Our father is dead.

We have wandered much in the wilderness. We have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue. And after all these sufferings, we must perish in the wilderness with hunger. So now I'm suffering for future trials that are never going to happen. And I find myself doing that too. What if this goes wrong? What if this? What if this? You know, Hank, that I love Moroni. And in Mormon chapter eight, the poor guy takes over. My father's been killed in battle. This was his life's work, the Book of Mormon.

I have no or. I have no family. I am alone. All my kindred are gone. And the Nephites are like this. And he gets to this point where his whole tone of voice changes if you read Mormon 8. And all of a sudden, he just says, I make an end of speaking concerning this people. I am Moroni. I am a son of Mormon. And I'm going to finish this record. And it's really, I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but read it. It's really cool how he says, okay, I'm done with the past and my problems. I'm going to finish my father's record. And I don't know how long it took him to write Mormon

chapter eight, but watch for that moment. It's pretty inspiring to me. Yeah. Well, and you know, if I could add one more thing, guys, going back to the story I told about my student, right, that said he finally owned it. I think that's what we're talking about, right? Where peace and happiness finally came to him, he had to quit dwelling in the past, right? And what had happened. And once he finally owned it, it was that step from the past sins to a step into the present now and being there and being there with God. So, you know. Well, this is great. We are never going to finish the Doctrine and Covenants if we don't.

Let's jump into 68, Rob. Tell us about it. What do you see there? Yeah. So, you know, just quickly, you know, revelation given through Joseph Smith in response to prayer that the mind of the Lord had been known. And it mentions four individuals, Orson Hyde, Lucas Johnson, Limony Johnson. Oh, there he is again, right? William E. McCollum. You know, one of the things real quick before we jump into section 68. Here now, if you look at 66, 67, 68, and 75, you got four revelations

that deal with this guy, William E. McClellan, who not only becomes an anti-Mormon critic, but he leaves the church and never does come back. And full disclosure, I wrote a paper once on William E. McClellan. That's why I love to talk about this history so much. And I think one of the takeaways from this, again, this is a microcosm and maybe off the beaten path here, but I think God not only works with imperfect people and people that ultimately leave his kingdom, but there are things we can learn from these incidents, from these people, and from these histories. And so, you know, I think that's significant. Do I want to glorify and glamorize? No, no, no, no. I'm not doing that. But boy, what are the lessons God is trying to teach me through other people,

through incidents that I might think are insignificant. You know, you have a bad day and you're like, oh, I'm so glad I got through that day and passed it. And now I can get on with life. Wait, wait, wait, you might've missed. Again, this comes back to living in the present. You might've missed something in that boring sacrament meeting or that unwanted trial. I think, you know, it reminds me

of what Elder Maxwell said one time. He said, we not only need to go through our trials, but we need to let our trials go through us. And how often do we just dismiss things because it's not a Nephi Moroni big home run moment. And maybe some of the most powerful lessons God's trying to teach us are coming through the small and simple things. That's interesting. These four guys, two of them are going to, I think, correct me if I'm wrong here, two of them are going to die in the faith. Orson Hyde is going to go on to, he was just 22 years old when he's baptized. He's going to go, he's going to be the first missionary in the Holy Land.

Right. He's going to... In fact, correct me if I'm wrong, Hank, I think he dedicates the Holy Land. He dedicates the Holy Land. Yeah. There's a monument there. I've often complained because when we go to the Holy Land, it takes like a good 24 hours of traveling to get there, 22 hours of traveling. I think it took him six months of traveling to finally get to the Holy Land. Luke Johnson is going to die faithful. He's going to leave the church for a bit and return. Lyman Johnson, if I remember right, Lyman Johnson is going to leave the church and then say to the 12, about a year later, uh, quote, I have never seen a happy moment since. It's such a heartbreaking story where he says, I have not seen a happy moment since, you know,

I disaffected. And these two Johnsons, I mean, there's a billion Johnsons in the world, but these two are, are they not John Johnson's sons of Elsa Johnson, whose arm was healed by Joseph Smith? Yeah. So they're living in Hiram, Ohio at the John Johnson farm. Yeah. Well, and the other thing about these four, all four of them, all original members of the Quorum of the Twelve. At the time of their calling, I said, little addendum, I said age 24. It was 23, even younger. So Lyman E. Johnson was 23 when he went into the Quorum.

Lucas Johnson, 27. William E. McClellan, age 29, goes into the Quorum of the Twelve, 1835, and Orson Hyde, age 30. All four of them original members of the Quorum of the Twelve. And this Orson Hyde, did I get that right, is 20... He's born January of 1805, so... Would have been about 26, right? Yeah. All right, so let's get into 68, Rob. You know, some cool verses.

I don't know if we want to spend a whole lot of time, but verse, let's just read verse three and four if we could real quick. John, if you want to do verse three, Hank, verse four. And this is the ensample unto them that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost. John, could you give us an ensample of what it's been spoken of in verse three? Well, as an ensample, they give out free ensamples at Costco. You may have had a free ensample. Yes. I love those ensamples. They're very good. This spaghetti sauce can be yours.

Ensample is just an old way of saying example, right? There you go. There you go. Okay. Verse four, Hank. And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture. Wow. Shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord and the power of God unto salvation. How should we interpret verse 4? Maybe a better question is, how might we misinterpret verse 4?

Oh, goodness. Yeah. I think our definitions, we have to be careful with the definition of Scripture. You know, what is binding Scripture? binding scripture. But there have been times where I've had conversations with John or other friends, with my wife, of course, where the conversations have been full of the Spirit, and it's been so uplifting that it is like reading scripture. It just feels so powerful and uplifting, like we're opening the doors of, of heaven. Uh, I, I don't think it should be recorded, printed and handed out in, you know, the enzyme, uh, but, um, or not it's Liahona, sorry. Um, but, uh, it is, it has the same feel to it, um, as scripture.

Yeah. Scripture is, is that which is written. I think that was the definition in Joseph Smith's day. And I think we're on the right track here, as I understand it, that there is scripture that is binding on the whole church that is the canon. There are other things. President Benson called patriarchal blessings personal scripture, but those aren't published to the world and they're not binding on the whole church. So, uh, something I may have said to someone as a missionary, uh, hopefully I was, uh, moved upon by the Holy ghost, but that for that setting in that place, uh, you know, maybe reached that level, but, uh, yeah. So I think we're, we're not saying anything anybody ever says under the inspiration is scripture on par with the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine and Covenants. I don't think we're saying that. Can you imagine our scripture sets we'd have? Volume 907. I need to get that out. So what do you think, Rob? You know, going back to Joseph Fielding McConkie, I remember one time he gave an in-service to us and he bore the most interesting testimony at the conclusion of this one in-service that he gave.

And he said, he goes, and I want to bear you my testimony that all those things that I spoke by the power of the Holy Ghost are true. And he said, and those things which were not spoken by the Holy Ghost, do with those what you want. That is awesome. One of my great moments in life is when I submitted a paper to Joseph Fielding McConkie in my master's program, and he returned it, not with a letter grade, but with a check plus smiley face. That's pretty good. Yeah. It's on, it's framed on my wall. So yeah. I really like verse six. Um, when I was, when I first got started as a scripture reader, you know, when I was a, when I was a teenager, when I really tried to take it seriously, I would, uh, oftentimes for me reading the scriptures was like finding like finding those just really powerful chunks.

I didn't really understand the setting. I didn't understand who the Lord was talking to like I do now. But at those times, these little verses that I would find really stood out to me. And this was one of them. Verse 6, Wherefore, be of good cheer and do not fear, for I, the Lord, am with you. I will stand by you. You shall bear record of me, even Jesus Christ, that I am the Son of the living God, that I was, that I am, and that I am to come.

That can kind of stand on its own to my little, you know, ninth grade heart as the Lord bearing testimony to me. Let's go down to verse 25. And again, in as much as parents have children in Zion or in any of her stakes, which are organized. How many stakes were there? Yeah. Right. He was forward looking here. Or in any of their stakes, which are organized and teach them not to understand the doctrine of repentance, faith in Christ, the son of the living God. John, could we have a prayer right now for all of those parents that have very sinful children?

Because those parents are in trouble at the final judgment. That's a lot of sin to be heaped upon their heads. Goodness. Yeah. Is sin a word that can be plural and singular? Right. Yeah. I mean, obviously, I mean, this can't be talking about the sins, plural of the children are upon the heads of the parents. So, John, I mean, what could we take away and say, what sin is this that's upon the heads of the parents? Yeah, the sin wasn't teaching them to understand. And I appreciate that it doesn't say teaching them or forcing them to accept, but at least you're teaching them to understand. There's going to come a time where it's going to be a very individual thing for each of us, I think, But teach them to understand the doctrine of repentance, of faith in Christ.

And if you don't even make that effort, if you don't try to teach them to understand, that sin is upon the head of the parents. That's how I read it. Yeah, there's a difference between teaching and teaching to understand. Yeah. To me, that's a, there's a, that's a, that's a different way of teaching. Um, I, I had a wonderful teacher in my doctorate program by the name of Sterling Hilton. Uh, he's a statistics, um, incredible statistical statistics mind,

right. And I was lost in statistics. And I remember when he would try to teach me, and I say try, he would try to teach me statistics and he would listen so closely to me because he wanted, he wanted to see what I understood. He could just teach statistics and I would be sitting there lost, or he could teach me to understand. And I learned that probably from any teacher, mostly from him, on really trying to focus on the student or the child, on what they understand, and then build from there instead of just teaching. That little phrase, teach them not to understand the doctrine, but the Lord doesn't say that teach them not the doctrine. Right. That little phrase to understand has helped me focus more on the learner and where they are individually.

What is it that we can hope or what would be good for all of us to do as members of the church as we read the scriptures? What care should we take? Yeah, see, I like what we're doing here because I think what the Lord, if I was going to say, okay, what the author's intent here is with Joseph and the Lord, I would guess the author's intent is make teaching your children a very high priority. Right. Because this is very important to me. It's so important to me that, you know, it'll come up at judgment. What I think could be dangerous is someone who is a grandparent now reading this verse and just feeling ashamed because their children are not on the path.

I think that would be the wrong approach. Right. To take this because the Lord does not mean it, I would say, as a as something to flog yourself with, but as a motivation to what you're dealing with right now, whether it be children or even grandchildren or even great-grandchildren, that you can start today, if you've never done so before, or even better, to teach these basic principles of the gospel. John is quick to point out that when the Lord wants things taught, it always comes back to these four. First principles. I love it. And I think, too, of this idea.

I love that the stripling warriors did not say, we know it's true. They said, we knew our mothers knew it. And sometimes with my kids, I'm not sure where they're at, but I want them to know that I know. And there will come a point where they'll get older and they'll want to get that same testimony. But here I'm going to teach them, this is what I believe. This is what I know. And then they're going to do something with that. An agency can be very painful. But did I strive? Did I try to teach them, even if imperfectly, that I have faith in

Christ, that I believe that He forgives, that I can repent? John, I love that idea. Sometimes we, I think, downplay, but that's a gift of the Spirit, right? I mean, one gift of the Spirit is to know in and of yourself that Jesus is the Christ, right? And another is to believe on their words. And the other is to believe on their words. And I wonder if we downplay. I hear people sometimes say, you can't live on borrowed white. And I think we understand that to an extent.

I mean, we don't want to stay there, right? We want to, as George Q. Cannon said, you want to develop more spiritual gifts. But when I hear that, I think, you know, and going to the, you know, as you said, the stripling warriors, that is a gift of the spirit that I think we need to respect. You know, if I could real quick, can we flip over to section 58? There's a verse that I love in section 58. It's in section 58, verse 59. And I've shared this with people before, because sometimes I think there's a culture in our church when we give testimony that we have to say, I know, I know this, I know that. And, you know, this is a tricky thing

because President Packer, you remember that quote that he gave one time, the candle of the Lord. Remember that beautiful talk? And he said that the gaining of a testimony is found in the bearing of it, right? And I think that's a true principle, right? But I also think that maybe we need to be careful and maybe we need to teach our children. And again, this is sensitive of how do you bear testimony? There's again, there's cultural things we have in the church, like infallibility, right?

There's cultural things that aren't correct. And do we bear testimony of things that we know are true? Absolutely. But look at this first, verse 59, let no man return from this land. This is the Lord speaking to Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, Sidney Rigdon, and other missionaries, right? He says, let no man return from this land except he bear record by the way of two things, that which he knows and most assuredly believes. And I thought, isn't that beautiful? And I wish we had a culture

sometimes in the church where maybe we can stand and say, you know, I don't know this, I'm growing, I'm progressing, but oh, I absolutely believe in this. And I think that kind of goes to Alma 32, right? When it says that, you know, once you start to feel those movements and those swellings, is your knowledge perfect? No, it's not. But you do know that you have felt those swellings and those movements and continue. And so I love that idea of bearing testimony, not only of that which I know, but that which I most assuredly believe. And again, that's, I think that could be a sensitive topic because the gaining of a testimony is found in the bearing of it. Hey, one more thought,

and then let's go on to section 69 and 70, but back to 68 and verse 25, you know, parents teaching children, you know, when eight years old. And so we're supposed to teach them those principles by eight years old. But now going down to verse 27. And their children shall be baptized for the remission of their sins when eight years old and receive the laying on of hands. Let me get some thoughts from you because, you know, eight is the age, it's the specific age the Lord has designated. You know, I've had students and even parents before ask me, why do we baptize at age eight? It doesn't say that in the scriptures. And it's like, yeah, it does. But anyhow, but then you get a scripture like D&C 137, if I could read this, verse 10.

And I think this is in one other place. It's a similar thing in section 29, but it says, I also beheld that children who die before they arrive, and it doesn't say age eight, it says before they arrive at the years, plural, years of accountability are saved. Any thoughts, Hank or John, about the difference? Age eight, specific arbitrary time when the Lord reveals we baptize. But I mean, does any child, when you look at all children that are so different, do they automatically become all of a sudden accountable right on their eighth birthday? I think the Lord chose a year, but I think he knows when people are fully accountable and when they're not. And they chose a year.

And I really love number symbols. Eight is a symbol of new beginnings throughout the scriptures. And so I can see eight were saved on the ark, you know? And so I think they chose a year, but ultimately the Lord knows when people are really accountable. And that's why I like the one verse that says they begin to become accountable. Right, right. I don't know about you guys, but I've known some kids at age six and a half or seven are really developed spiritually. And others are 15 and they're not getting it. I like how John is talking here that the Lord has common sense. Yes, we needed to choose an age, but any age would probably, you know, would be the same, right? It would be, well, that's too late.

Oh, that's too early. There's just because everybody's different. So the Lord knows each individual. I think that's a beautiful idea that we're going to choose an age here, but I know you all individually. I think that's a beautiful idea. Before we go on, unless you two have thoughts, I wanted to just grab verse 28. Yeah, actually I have two thoughts. One, uh, I wanted to share, uh, because verse 25 can be like we just talked about, can be a difficult verse for people who feel like, oh, I should

have done more. We should have had more family prayer. We should have had more scripture study. I should have taken advantage of more, You know, this is my fault. And I remember Bruce Hafen, Elder Bruce Hafen said once he quoted David O. McKay that no other success can compensate for failure in the home. And he talked about how President McKay was talking about give your best efforts to your to your family. Don't leave them with the leftovers. He said, but President McKay was not saying that if somehow your children stray off the gospel path that you don't deserve any other success. That's what we've turned it into, right? That if your

children stray off the gospel path, you you should have no happiness anywhere ever. We've kind of turned it into a from an encouraging quote to a to a kind of a flogging quote. Right. Where we where we beat people with it. And then Elder Hafen said this. He said there is a success that will compensate for failure in the home. It is the atonement of Jesus Christ. It can compensate for any failure in the home or without. So go to him. I just remember that you almost could feel the size of almost the relief of parents throughout, you know, who read that quote or that and go, yes, there is. Including Lehi and Soraya, for crying out loud. You know?

And what's the old story? Was it Terrell B. Lee? I can't remember. Hey, the Joneses are having trouble with their kids. Yeah, and Heavenly Father's having trouble with some of his, too. Right. And you can look forward. My parents weren't perfect, but my father, who recently passed away just last month, he really tried with all of his grandchildren to teach them these principles.

To his last days, he was really trying to teach these principles because it was forward looking to him. I can't fix the mistakes I made in the past. I can't, you know, but I've got these grandkids in front of me. I'm going to try to teach them these principles. And then this other story I wanted to bring up, Rob, just real quick is section 68, verse 28, teach their children to pray, teach their children to pray. And it immediately came to mind a story from president Henry B. Eyring. Uh, he talks about a time his father taught him to pray. This is, uh, this is from a 2000, the 2003 enzyme. He said 2003. Let's see.

What month is it? November, 2003. The afternoon, my mother died. We went to the family home from the, we went to the family home from the hospital. We sat quietly in the darkened living room for a while.

Dad excused himself and went up to his bedroom. He was gone for a few minutes. When he walked back intoened living room for a while. Dagg excused himself and went up to his bedroom. He was gone for a few minutes. When he walked back into the living room, there was a smile on his face. He said that he'd been concerned for Mother. During the time he had gathered her things from the hospital room and thanked the staff for being so kind to her,

he thought of her going into the spirit world just minutes after her death. He was afraid. Oh, sorry. He was afraid she would be lonely if there was no one there to meet her. He had gone to his bedroom to ask his heavenly father to have someone greet Mildred, his wife and my mother. He said that he had been told in answer to his prayer that his mother had met his sweetheart. I smiled at that too, President Eyring says.

Grandma Eyring was not very tall. I had a clear picture of her rushing through the crowd, her short legs moving rapidly on her mission to meet my mother. And then he says this, dad surely didn't intend at that moment to teach me about prayer, but he did. I can't remember a sermon from my mother or my father about prayer. They prayed when times were hard and when they were good and they reported in matter of fact ways, how kind God was, how powerful and how close. Um, that's awesome. Yeah. That story has always just stood out to me when I read that phrase, teach their children to pray.

You know, teach your children to pray. Teach your children how to pray, right? I know you're probably both familiar with this, but when I think of teaching children to pray, not just to pray, but maybe how to pray, you know, I think that phrase could be interpreted both ways. I think you're both familiar with that definition in the Bible dictionary under prayer. There is, you know, for the listeners that we have here that are not familiar with this in the Bible dictionary under the heading prayer. And this is in the entry on prayer and it's, Oh,

let's see. It's, it's about eight pair, eight, probably seven or eight paragraphs down. It says prayer is the act by which the will of the father and the will of the child are brought in correspondence with each other. The object of prayer is not to change the will of God, but to secure for ourselves and for others blessings that God is already willing to grant but are made conditional on our asking for them.

And I love that idea. You know, when we work with investigators and even with children the first time when we teach them to pray, we do the Heavenly Father, we ask the, we thank the, you know, the four-step thing, right? But isn't that beautiful that, wouldn't that be a wonderful thing for parents to teach children that you're not just asking for things, that might be where we start, but we want to come in correspondence with God's will. And prayer is a reverential act. It's a form of worship. And what are those scriptures? There's a couple of scriptures that says, and it shall be given you what you shall pray for, right? Remember the disciple Nephi? God said, hey, I'm going to give you whatever you'll ask, because I know you will not ask amiss. And when I get in the proper framework of prayer, I'm not really praying for what I want. It's almost this worship revealed form that happens

where God reveals to me what to pray for. Does that make sense? I think that's a more advanced concept, but an alignment, that's right. Hopefully we're teaching children not just to pray, but how to pray and how to get, that might, those first four steps that we do with investigators, that's probably a good place to start. But hopefully as we teach children to pray, we migrate over to this higher form of worship where we commune with God. And we don't just get through the prayer, right? You know, looking at verse 25, I think of Elder Lawrence Corbridge's talk called Stand Forever and how he talked about primary questions versus secondary questions. And Sister Joy D. Jones, in page 109 of the Come Follow Me manual, said this, A key to helping children become sin-resistant is to begin at very early ages to lovingly infuse them with the basic gospel doctrines and principles,

from the scriptures, the articles of faith, the For the Strength of Youth booklet, primary songs, hymns, and our own personal testimonies that will lead children to the Savior. And when she says basic gospel doctrines, I look at 25. That's it. Faith in Christ, the doctrine of repentance, which Elder Holland said is the most hopeful, encouraging word in the Christian vocabulary. Repentance is the gift of the Holy Ghost and then how we use that moving forward in our daily life, you know. So I appreciate whenever we get, there are so many different things we could talk about. I love it when the scriptures come back to, okay, let's go back to first principles once again and mention those. That was in the manual, John? Yeah, that's in the Come Follow Me manual, page 109.

Are we ready to keep going here, Rob? Yeah, let's go to section 69, a shorter section. You know, these are revelations all coming in November of 1831, all centering around the printing of the book of commandments. Verse six, for the land of Zion shall be a seat and a place to receive and do all things. Back in section 57, and I'm sure you guys have already talked about this, you know, Jackson County, that's the place that's appointed. And when you get a verse like this, it seems to be pretty definitive. The land of Zion shall be a seat and a place to receive and do all these things. You know, a question that often comes up from some of my students is, is Zion the new Jerusalem, Is this still the seat? Is it still the center place?

Is it still the gathering place for the saints? As it says in the Doctrine and Covenants. And let me just read maybe a quote or two. There's not a whole lot we have that is current about this. The brethren haven't said a whole lot, but there are a few things that have been said. First of all, let me back up and just read something. This is from President Joseph Fielding Smith in Doctrines of Salvation. He says, the center place where the city of the New Jerusalem is to be built is Jackson County, Missouri. It was never the intent to substitute

Utah or any other place for Jackson County. So kind of interesting, right? 2003, here's two of the most recent statements we have on Zion, the new Jerusalem still being the center place, not Utah. This is President Dallin H. Oaks, October conference, 2003. And I love this statement. He says this, many of us or our descendants will doubtless participate in the fulfillment of the prophecies of the building of the city of the new Jerusalem. But in this matter, the timing is the Lord's, not ours. We will not be approved or blessed in clearing the ground or pouring the footings for that great project until the Lord has said that it is time. In this,

as in so many other things, the Lord will proceed in his own time and in his own way. I often tell students that bring up that question, I'll read them that quote, and they're like, why aren't they talking more about Zion, the new Jerusalem? And I'm like, here's your answer right here. The Lord proceeds in his own time. And isn't it interesting, some of the questions we have, often that students have, I'll direct their attention back. Well, what are the prophets saying? If they're not commenting on certain things, that's probably the answer right there, right? It's not that it's not a doctrine, but there's not a whole lot more to say. Here's

the most recent thing that's been said on Zion, the new Jerusalem. And this is October conference 2008. And this is Elder D. Todd Christofferson of the Quorum of the Twelve. And I would love if any of your listeners, Hank and John, or if you guys have more current stuff, I have a whole PowerPoint deck that I do on this, both in education weekend and a BYU class. I loved it. But this is the most current thing that I have. Elder Christofferson said this, Zion is both a place and a people. God has called for the elders of his church to be sent forth across the world

to accomplish this gathering, commencing an effort that continues in full vigor today. In our families and in our stakes and districts, let us seek to build up Zion through unity, godliness, and charity, preparing for that great day when Zion, the new Jerusalem, will arise. So, you know, as late as 2008, you have Elder Christofferson saying, yeah, the place will rise one day. That's going to happen. But right now, let's build up Zion through unity, godliness, and charity. I love that focus on not Zion the place, but Zion the people, the condition of the heart. I think that's one of the fun things going through these

sections has been noticing that Zion is a place and Zion is a people and even Zion is a state of unity, of oneness. And it seems to be going in and out of that. I know Hank takes church history tours back there and it's, I mean, you go to Adam on Diana, there's pretty much just nothing there except for a farm or whatever. And you try to imagine what is going to happen here. And it's usually so hot. I'm like, get back on the bus. John Whitmer has quite a bit to do and quite a few specific things, right? You know, let's look at those things again. I think there's a lesson in this preaching, expounding, writing, copying, selecting, obtaining. Let me read to you. You are both familiar with one of my favorite teachers.

You know, we've talked about Robert Millett. You know, Robert Millett. Let me read to you something that he says about those things, all those specific activities in the context of preaching the gospel. This is one of my favorite all-time quotes. He says, the word of God is sufficiently powerful that gospel teachers or preachers do not need to assume the burden of converting their listeners. There is sufficient for the gospel teacher to do by way of reading, studying, preparing, praying, organizing, and presenting that he or she need not feel the obligation to create a spiritual experience. We need not usurp the role of the Holy Ghost. Ultimately, he is the teacher. He is the converter.

He is the member of the eternal Godhead charged with carrying the word of truth into the hearts and minds of the children and men. He is the agent of the new birth who sanctifies and empowers human beings. You know, I think that is so, so wise to look at that verse. There's so many things that God wants us to do and that we can do, but what he doesn't want us to do is usurp the role of the Holy Ghost. And I wonder if sometimes we violate that a few ways. One in which I know I've done before is where I try to create a spiritual experience, right? And maybe I hate to even say this, but maybe I try to get too weepy sometimes. I think tears can come naturally, right? Maybe I tell an overly sensational story rather than just doing the simple things, you know, kind of like what

we're doing today, just going through and teaching the basic principles. John, like you said, with the first four principles and we sprinkle a little humor in there, right? Along the way, I wonder for parents, you know, maybe parents get too worried sometimes, you know, that they didn't like, like we said before, that they didn't do enough with their home evening lessons and with their fireside chats and whatnot. And to trust, let's trust Heavenly Father. You don't need to do that, mom and dad and grandma and grandpa. That never was your assignment to be the Holy Ghost to convert them. You weren't supposed to convert them. The Holy Ghost did. You had enough to do by way of training, raising, changing diapers, and reading

scripture and living the gospel. Let's stay in our lane and do our stuff and trust that God will do his stuff. Yeah, there's a great moment in the old Testament where Jehoshaphat is told to go out and battle an army. And what does the prophet tell him? The battle is not yours, but God's. This is not your fight. This is my fight. And we can say that with children, right? These are the Lord's children, not yours. And this is his fight. I love what Robert Millett said about that. The scriptures themselves have sufficient power. Just read them. Just read them and share them, people will sense these words are beyond an object lesson or something. These words themselves have power. I like it. Rob, what's going on in Section 70? Can you give us the backstory and then we'll jump in?

Yeah, yeah. In fact, if you look in the heading there, this is another Hiram, Ohio, Revelation, November 12, 1831. The prophet's history states that four special conferences were held from the first to the 12th of November inclusive. And the last of these assemblies, the great importance of the revelations that would later be published as the book of commandments, and then the doctrine and covenants would be considered. This revelation was given after the conference voted that the revelations were, quote, worth to the church, the riches of the whole earth. I love that. I want to come back to that. I want to come back to that. It then says Joseph's history refers to the revelations as, quote, the foundation of the church in these last

days and benefit to the world, showing that the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom of our Savior are again entrusted to men, end quote. Can I read a statement from President Benson about the Doctrine and Covenants that I think goes perfectly along with this and the context to section 70? And in fact, when I teach my BYU classes, whenever I teach a Doctrine and Covenants class, we always read this quote, and I'll try to excerpt it so I just get to the meat. But President Benson said this, he says, excluding the witnesses to the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants is by far the greatest external witness and evidence which we have from the Lord that the Book of Mormon is true. Isn't that interesting? That is fascinating to me. And then he goes on and he says this,

the Book of Mormon brings men to Christ. The Doctrine and Covenants brings men to Christ's kingdom. The Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion, and the doctrine and covenants is the capstone with continuing revelation. And then I love this, the Lord has placed his stamp of approval on both the keystone and the capstone. And then he concludes, he says, God bless all of us to use all the scriptures, but in particular, the instrument he designed to bring us to Christ, the Book of Mormon, the keystone of our religion, along with its companion volume, the capstone, the doctrine and covenants, the instrument to bring us to Christ's kingdom. I love that idea. And how often do we talk? I mean, I think all of us know Book of Mormon is number one in the church, right?

It's always emphasized, and rightly so. But how many of us not only use the Doctrine and Covenants as a companion volume, but view it as a companion volume on par with the Book of Mormon? I mean, that's pretty powerful. And what a wonderful, if I can just, you know, as I was preparing for today and going through this part of the history of Section 70, and I remember this quote from President Benson, and I thought, what an amazing thing. What a tribute, Hank and John, to you guys and your team for doing this type of stuff with the Doctrine and Covenants, where we can go in and dig and cull out these powerful principles that absolutely should stand on par with the Book of Mormon. Yeah, that is beautiful. In fact, the only other place, and you reminded me of something, Rob, the only other place we've heard that quote is when we did our very first episode with Tony Sweat.

And I went and looked at section one, and this is where it would fall chronologically. That's right. So to anyone who has yet to go back, we would encourage anyone go back if you can this week, go listen to our very first episode with Dr. Tony Sweat, because it would fall in line right here, November of 1831, when they wrote the preface that we talked about, uh, talked about then. And I'll tell you from that first episode until this one, this book has changed for me. Um, absolutely changed. And we're only halfway through, uh, and it has absolutely changed the way I view the history of the church. Um, and these revelations,

because I had a little bit of knowledge about them before, but talking to people who have studied them like you, Rob, has really changed my view on them, and they have become more of a companion than a just kind of out there scripture. It reminds me of, I think, a Hugh Nibley statement that the scriptures will wear you out before you wear them out type of a thing. Just the idea that there are levels of meaning that you may have never even seen there before. And that's why we don't ever say, oh, I've already read that book. It's read it again, read it again, read it again, because there will be new levels of meaning that will, the Lord will inspire in you that you never thought of before. It's the Liahona,

isn't it? There was a new writing on it from time to time. Right. And you go into the scriptures and sometimes there there's a, I mean, the words are the same, but there's a new writing, a new spiritual writing from time to time. I've definitely had that experience doing this podcast, John. I know you have too. Yeah. Good stuff. We had a comment that came in from somewhere, Hank, where someone said, I love to see you guys taking notes. Like, you're all learning this too.

And I thought, oh boy, am I ever. In fact, John, I think the exact quote was, it's fun that old people are still learning too. And I thought, oh boy, am I ever. In fact, John, I think the exact quote was, it's fun that old people are still learning too. I really. Clearly that was me, not you, Hank. That had to be me. I really liked that quote. Don't you love how the Lord finishes these sections? With his mercy, right? Yeah. He said, there's so many times where John has pointed this out to me that, you know, the Lord gives them a parting thought that is usually just so just uplifting and kind of a shot in the arm like you're doing great. Behold, I, the Lord, am merciful and will bless them and they shall enter into the joy of these things. I mean, it's just I love how the Lord chooses to speak to these people.

They're not perfect, and he could point that out. My patriarchal blessing could have been, Hank, it doesn't look good. But it was a positive message. And what the Lord could have said versus what the Lord chooses to say is an important lesson to me, that we can choose to speak this way, to speak hopefully and encouragingly. Rabbi, we have a last question for you. I think our listeners would love to hear your personal thoughts on Joseph Smith, the restoration, and what it has done for you in your life? Well, thanks. That's a great question. And thanks again for having me on. And I'm honored to be able to do that. You know, I think everyone's journey, everyone's journey is a journey. It evolves, right? One of the things that I often do is I have, in fact, your listeners can't see this, but this is my old ninth grade high school

seminary copy of the scriptures. I still keep it. And the reason I keep it is every now and then I need a little bit of humor to go back and read what I wrote. And there's some truth to that. It's interesting to see, you know, sometimes we laugh at ourselves where we were. You know, I don't know if you two have ever had this before, but I go back and I look at some of the things, some of the lesson plans that I had 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, and I have a pretty good laugh sometimes. And I'm like, oh my goodness, what was I doing? You know, and you know, if one of the, I hope your viewer, your listeners, if one thing that maybe, and Hank, you mentioned this earlier, one of the things we've really focused on today is God's love, right?

His love, his compassion. And I love God's love. I love that he's merciful to us in our weakness. I love that he's merciful to Joseph. Some people might say this is wrong or they might not understand what I'm going to say. But I think we need to be so careful with Joseph, with trying to deify him and trying to make him into something that he isn't. I think Joseph didn't take himself that seriously. And now I don't want to downplay Joseph, you know,

section 135, boy, Joseph's done more save that, you know, some people misinterpret that, right? I wish we could add a little thing in 135, the Savior has done way more than Joseph, right? But Joseph has done a lot with the restoration. And I think what I would say about Joseph and the restoration and my journey, I'm so grateful for God's grace, his mercy, and that he allows us to change. I will be completely honest with you guys and your listeners. There are so many things that I have an absolute rock solid testimony of in this gospel, truth of the gospel. I will freely admit too, that there are some things that I, that I haven't fully resolved. And I, I don't know if some of those things I'll ever fully resolve. But I'm so grateful for God's mercy, His patience, His love, and that He invites us to do the same. He says, go and do thou likewise, right?

I want to share with the listeners something that has become a big part of who I am and what I teach to my students. But often when I get students that get perplexed and they're like, oh, I got to leave the church over this or that or the other, I'll often say this to them. I'll say, let me give you two lists, okay? Two lists. And this is what I'd end on today. List number one is this, Book of Mormon translated with seer stones. Garden of Eden is in Jackson County, Missouri. Don't date until you're 16. We could keep going with that list.

Here's list number two. Patience, love, charity, kindness, godliness. You see the difference between those two lists, don't you? I always tell my students, don't become overwhelmed with becoming a scholar of list one, but be a disciple of list number two. If you want to find something over which to leave this church, you'll find it. But there are too many beautiful things. And so many things I see in the church and in the restored gospel that we not only do well,

we do better. Like Elder Ballard said five, six years ago in conference, where else are you going to go? I worry about saying that the church is perfect. I think it's better said the gospel of Jesus Christ is perfect. But the people in the church, hopefully we can repent. Hopefully God allows change to happen. I know he's allowed change to happen with me. And I'd like to think that he has mercy and compassion and love for his church leaders, Joseph included, and that changes can be made. Does that mean I need to go out and be overtly critical of the brethren? No. Is it okay to have a healthy understanding that sometimes mistakes are made and sometimes course corrections are made?

Yeah, that's good. But I don't want to give up what what I have because I know I know that those truths of the gospel which have been revealed to me I do know I don't just believe anymore I know those are true there are some things I believe there's some things I don't know about but those are very very few but I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for Jesus Christ and his restored gospel. Leave that with you in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Amen. Thank you so much. We want to thank Dr. Robert Line for being with us today. John, isn't that just another awesome episode of Follow Him? And it's not because of us. It's because of our awesome guests that we have. Absolutely. We want to thank, of course, our listeners.

None of this would happen if it weren't for you. We're grateful for your support. We're especially grateful for our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson. And then we have an amazing production crew we want to mention them David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton and Maria Hilton we hope that you will all join us again

on the next episode of Follow Him Thank you.