followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 85-87 Part 1 : Dr. Ken Alford

Episode Date: July 31, 2021

Will members receive revelation for those outside of their stewardship? Who is the one “Great and Mighty” mentioned in this week’s lesson? Join Dr. Kenneth Alford as he shares what it means to ���steady the ark,” as well as teaching how the early Saints learned about personal revelations, corporeal revelation, and the “unspeakable gift’ of the Holy Ghost. The Saints are living through persecution and hear the rumors of war. This week’s lesson applies to each member as we live in a time of tribulations and learn to listen to the voice of the Lord.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John, by the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello, my friends. Welcome to Follow Him. I am your host, Hank Smith. I am here with my illustrious co-host, John, by the way. Hello, John. Welcome. Hank has a different adjective for me each time. I gave Hank a thesaurus once, and not only was it terrible, it was terrible. Yes, I had to go get a new one. Hey, we want to remind everybody to come find us on Facebook and Instagram.

We've got some extras on there John and I are doing. We also, for those of you who are listening, there is a YouTube version if you'd rather watch us. You can also get show notes and transcripts at followhim.co, followhim.co. And, of course, we'd love for you to rate and review the podcast. That really helps us out. So John, another week and another expert in church history. So tell us who we have here. It's great. I'm so delighted to be here. This thing has changed my Doctrine and Covenants. I thought I'd read it before, but it's just a blessing for us to be here and to have Dr. Kenneth L. Alford here. Let me read what I've got here.

After serving almost 30 years on active duty in the United States Army, Brother Alford retired as a colonel in 2008. While on active military duty, Ken served in numerous assignments including the Pentagon, eight years teaching computer science and information systems engineering at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, and four years as a professor of behavioral science and department chair at the National Defense University in Washington, D.C. After serving in the England Bristol mission with my sister-in-law, he earned a Bachelor of Arts degree in Political Science from Brigham Young University, a Master

of Arts in International Relations from the University of Southern California, a Master of Computer Science from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, and a PhD in Computer Science from George Mason University. He has published and presented on a wide variety of subjects during his career, and Ken and his wife, Cheryl Lee, have four children and 18 grandchildren, and we're so happy to welcome you today. Thanks for being with us today. Thanks. I should probably clarify that your sister-in-law and I were in the same mission, but we're not companions.

Yeah, that sounded kind of funny. I just want to be really clear on that. And Linda was not my sister-in-law at the time either. She came home, married my brother, so we found out we had that connection, which is great. Now, is this accurate? Four children, 18 grandchildren? That number seems to change with almost everybody we bring on. That's the accurate number. You can kind of see the group behind me. I've got a family photo there from a family reunion and heading for

another family reunion this summer. John, I've known Ken for, golly, it's been 10 years now, ever since I came on to campus at BYU. And he has been, honestly, always so kind to newcomers. I don't know why that is, Ken. Maybe it's just a natural thing or maybe someone did it to you a long time ago. But you were, I stepped foot on campus and you came over to say hi and meet me and find out who I was. And then we found out that we had, you know, mutual family with my sister-in-law, Lisa, I think is your cousin. And we just connected there. Is that just something you've always done? When you're in the army, you're always the new guy. My wife and I moved our family, I don't know, 15 or more times in a 30-year career. And so you're always showing up as the new guy. Our BYU faculty is actually the fifth faculty that I've been a part of. So even academically,

you're always the new guy. So I kind of have an empathy, I think, for being the new guy, because I've been the new guy so many times. Nice. Yeah. I remember first day, I was like, oh, I have a friend. I have a friend. It makes a difference. You know, you feel like us as adults, we don't worry about that sort of thing. But no, we do. And it feels good. So before I let this happen, I just want to make our listeners aware that Ken is not only a church history and doctrine expert, he's also a war history expert. And we have a war history lover in our co-host, John, by the way. So they may go off on some tangents at times talking about World War II. John, we haven't talked

about your dad very much. Where did he serve? My dad enlisted in the Navy two days before his 18th birthday in 1944. He went to Camp Farragut in Idaho to learn how to march in straight lines, other important stuff. And then he got on a train to San Francisco, a bus to San Francisco Bay, and boarded the USS Saratoga CV3, the largest carrier in the fleet at the time, and saw action at Iwo Jima. Their ship was attacked by kamikazes. He stayed at his post. He was on a quad 40 anti-aircraft gun and 123 killed, 196 wounded that day, February 23rd, 1945. Was not a member of the church, but had some buddies that dragged him off his bunk and said, you're coming to church with us.

And when he got home, he thought I should date some, as he put it, some LDS girls. And one of those ended up being my mom. So it's a really interesting story how even in those kinds of times, the Lord can intervene and make wonderful things happen, even in difficult, very difficult times. So I could go on all day, but that's the one paragraph nutshell. So World War II from 1944 to 1946 in the Pacific on the Saratoga. Well, I wanted to ask maybe Brother Alfred about his, was the military something you always wanted to do? Was it something that helped you get to college? How did that all come about? My father was a reserve officer. So when I was born just before dad graduated from BYU, and then when I was just a couple weeks old, we moved to Harlingen, Texas. He went to navigator school training down there. I

learned to walk while he was at nav school training. And then we got stationed in Alaska when I was little. It was a territory then, so I'll betray my age. My sister's birth certificate says territory of Alaska. And then we, that's when he was on active duty. Dad used to fly with a B-50 along the Bering Strait, taking in air samples from the Soviet Union, proving that they were doing nuclear tests. And then we moved back. We moved, dad got out of the service, went into the reserves. We moved to Ogden.

But my whole growing up, dad was in the reserve. So he would disappear summers and Christmases going over to Vietnam and various places. And so military was just kind of a thing. And then I went to high school at Ben Lomond High School in Ogden, Utah. And Ogden, Utah was one of two cities in the entire nation. The other was Walla Walla, Washington. And if you went to high school in Walla Walla, Washington or Ogden, Utah, you took ROTC as a sophomore. It wasn't optional. If you were a male, you took ROTC. And so I took ROTC and I liked it and had basic, you know, military familiarization from my dad. So I continued through high school ROTC. It was a battalion commander there and then applied for a scholarship for ROTC at college and got the scholarship, went to BYU on Army ROTC scholarship

and then graduated into the Army. And the Army just every single time we asked for something, the Army just said, okay. It was just amazing. And so the Army lets you do anything you could do in the civilian world you can do in the Army. And so I wanted to be a professor, and they let me be a professor a couple of times and sent me to school and did all kinds of things. And I turned around and 30 years almost had passed. And then we got out. The Army was very good to my family.

The saying within the Army is the Lord knows where he wants your family to be. And then he whispers to the army to send you there. And that seemed to be the case with our family as we moved just all over the place. And it was a great experience. Although if you ask our children where they're from, they kind of just look at you. They're not quite sure how to answer that. Although most of them, I think, would say probably Virginia because we had three tours in Virginia. All right. Well, let's jump into our lesson this week, Ken.

We're studying sections 85, 86, and 87, which seem to me, because of your help, which seem to me to be kind of standalone sections. They don't really run together like some of the others we've seen, you know, right in a row. Let's back up as far as you want and tell our listeners what they probably should know before heading into section 85. Well, sure. Section 85, you have to remember at this time that, boy, poor Joseph Smith, he's trying to run the church with two church centers, if you like, for lack of a better description. And the internet is still down in 1831-32. It's going to be down for another 150 years. And so it's really tough. I mean, just can you imagine trying to communicate and organize? And on top of this,

you're trying to organize and run the law of consecration in the land of Zion in Missouri. And so he's deputized basically some folks and given them authority, David Whitmer and others, who's the president of the church in Missouri. And, and he's, he's, Joseph has traveled out to Missouri and they're trying, they're just trying to, you know, build the church in, in Ohio. They're trying to build the church in Missouri and they're having challenges in both places to be quite frank. And. And boy, it's got to be frustrating to be Joseph because he's only got, you know, at this stage in church history, he's got two bishops, but fortunately he has two bishops now. He started with none. And in Missouri, what's happened is they have, when Joseph went out, they take W.W. Phelps, William Wine Phelps.

And just a little bit about W.W. Phelps. He's one of those guys you hear his name a lot. He's from New Jersey. He actually wanted to run for lieutenant governor of New York at one point. It's kind of fun, his connection to the church. He buys a Book of Mormon. Talk about interesting timing. He buys. He buys a Book of Mormon. Talk about interesting timing. He buys his copy of the Book of Mormon on the 9th of April, as I recall, like three days after the church is organized.

So the church is three days old. He buys a copy of the Book of Mormon. He's reading it. He doesn't meet Joseph, though, as I recall, until, oh, goodness, it's almost Christmas in 1830. And then he waits six more months before he's baptized. And he's baptized, as I recall, in June of 1831. And then Joseph is told by the Lord to send Oliver Cowdery and John Whitmer with the copy of what's called the Book of Commandments and Revelations.

And this is a record, kind of a master copy of the revelations Joseph has been receiving. They take that out to Missouri and W.W. Phelps very painstakingly begins setting that type in a little teeny book. It's only about this big. And it's called the Book of Commandments, because if we go clear back to section one at the beginning of the Come Follow Me year, the Lord in those initial verses says, this is my preface. And he names it the book of commandments.

So WW Phelps is working on that and he he's publishing that. And so he's out there in Missouri. Joseph is back in Kirtland. Now section 85 is, is written down. It's actually a letter. It's an excerpt of a letter from Joseph Smith to WW.W. Phelps. Now, we're presuming that W.W. Phelps must have written a letter first. And what's happened is right before this, this is the end of November 1832. And Joseph has just come back from a mission up into southern Canada and up into upstate New York. And while he's gone, his mail is stacking up. You know, that happens when you don't have email. And so he's wading through all of his mail. And he must have come across a letter from W.W. Phelps. Now, that letter's been long lost.

Hopefully they'll find it someday, but currently that letter is lost. We can presume what the letter says based on Joseph's response. And he writes back to W. W. Phelps and gives him some counsel and advice on church members in Missouri and also how the law of consecration is to be run and what records are to be kept and those kinds of things. And in this letter, Joseph says this. he says, while I dictate this letter, I fancy to myself that you are saying or thinking something similar to these words. So he puts a question into WW Phelps mouth and it says, what shall become of those who are a saying to come up on design. So those people that are coming to Missouri in order to keep the commandments

of God and yet receive not their inheritance by consecration, by order of deed from the bishop, agreeably to the law. And then he says, so I've assumed you've asked that question, www. And now I will proceed to answer your question. And so the letter, and by the way, you can find the text of the entire letter. If any listeners are interested, just go to the Joseph Smith Papers website. It's josephsmithpapers.org. And you can actually find under the revelations, the full text, the original letter of Joseph. And you can see the parts that were cut out that actually become section 85. And so in there,, Joseph, there's a fun reference in verse 6 where Joseph talks about,

he says, yea, thus saith the still small voice, which whispereth through and pierceth all things. I just think that's a great description. Just a fun description of the Holy Ghost, because when the Holy Ghost speaks to you, it just kind of pierces you. You know, it's still and it's small, but the Holy Ghost has this great ability to just get your attention. And then Joseph goes on and says in the letters, And oftentimes it makes my bones to quake while it maketh manifest. So that when I feel the spirit, it just kind of makes me shake all over.

It's just so exciting that it's happening. And at this time, the law of consecration in Missouri is being organized, if you like, by the first bishop in the church. That's Edward Partridge, who was a hatter, by the way. And he made hats for a living prior to becoming a bishop. And so he's out there. And Edward Partridge, he's, you know, for a while,

he's the only bishop in the church. And now he's been charged with running the law of consecration. If you go back and remember section 51, he gets instructions from the Lord on how to do that. And there's various sections that you've talked about in previous episodes that talk about the law of consecration and things. But Edward Partridge, this is a good man. The Lord says, this is a man in whom there is no guile. He just doesn't have a deceitful bone in his body. And the Lord compares him to Nathaniel, one of his ancient apostles.

But Edward Partridge isn't perfect. He's like the rest of us. And Edward Partridge, quite frankly, comes in and out of favor, if you like, with Joseph, because the Lord says earlier, I'm going to paraphrase here, but basically the Lord says, when it comes to the law of consecration, it's my way or the highway. You have to do it my way or the law just won't work. And as they're trying to work through some of the problems in Missouri, Edward Partridge is maybe being just a little creative and trying to figure some of these things out. And plus they have people that won't join the law and there's

just lots of challenges. They're receiving persecution. But at this time in November of 1832, Joseph considers from what he knows that Edward Partridge needs to probably toe the line a little bit more when it comes to the law of consecration. And he does, by the way. There are several things in later revelations and also other writings of Joseph where Edward Partridge, he's just such a great guy. But he needs a little course correction right here. And so Joseph offers that course correction in this letter that is excerpt in section 85.

And what he says is, is in verse seven, the letter says, and it shall come to pass that I, the Lord God will send one mighty and strong. And basically what he's telling Bishop Partridge is, Bishop, I've called you to do this. You need to do it. You need to rely on the spirit, but you need to follow the guidelines and exercise and execute the law of consecration as it's been laid out. And if you don't do that, I will send someone mighty and strong who will help you out. And then he goes on and says, And that, of course, is a reference to poor Uzzah back in 1 Chronicles, what, chapter 13, verses 9 and 10. This is a guy that's following the Ark of the Covenant as Israel's on the move.

And the Ark, you know, it's on a wagon that's apparently a little bit rickety. And I don't know, they hit a bump or something happens and the Ark shifts. And so Uzzah puts out his hand to steady the Ark and keep it on the wagon. Well, that's verboten. You're not allowed to touch the Ark unless you're, you know, of the proper cast of Levites and in the right order and all those other rules that are found in the Old Testament. But Uzzah takes it upon himself. And basically what Uzzah says is,

God isn't capable of protecting the Ark of the Covenant. I'm going to have to do it for him. And so I'm going to override the rule, and I'm going to put my hand out and steady the Ark. Uzzah touches the Ark ark and he's killed. And so you don't steady the ark, you know, and that's kind of a, we've got that metaphor in the church of not steadying the ark. I was going to say, Ken, that's become kind of a, I've heard it at least in my church experience, don't study the ark. And that's where it comes from, is from that first Chronicles story. In fact, David O. McKay

made this statement. I like this. He said, it's a little dangerous for us to go out of our own sphere and try to unauthoritatively, and that's the key, to unauthoritatively direct the efforts of a brother, or I would add a sister. See how quickly those who attempt unauthoritatively to steady the ark die spiritually. Now, when I was growing up, I think each generation, you know, they play favorites just maybe a little bit. And one of our favorites was, was Neal A. Maxwell and Elder Maxwell said it this way. He just said, quote, prophets need tutoring as we all do. Okay. But then I love this line. He says, however, this is something the Lord seems perfectly quite able to manage without requiring a host of helpers. And isn't that a great line? You know, none of

us are perfect, not even the prophets and apostles, but it's not our position to steady the ark. And so the statement in that section, today we look at it, we go, okay, Bishop Partridge got that counsel. He repented of whatever he was not quite doing right and absolutely did a great job. But I've got to tell you, in the first 75 years of the church's history, and especially around the period of the manifesto into the period of Utah's early statehood, that phrase from verse seven, one mighty and strong, really became kind of a touchstone as different groups left the church for various reasons. Often it was because of plural marriage. When the keys to plural marriage were turned off, there were some groups that didn't agree with that and they left the church. And some of them used that phrase, one mighty and strong, to say that that was their leader

of their break-off group. And so much so that, interestingly, this isn't known much today, but in the Deseret News, which is owned by the church, in the 11 November issue in 1905, so the church is just 75 years old. But in November of 1905, the first presidency published a very long, for a newspaper, a very long explanation about that phrase, one mighty and strong. And they felt so strongly about it that they republished it almost two years later in the October issue of the Improvement Era in 1907. And here's what the first presidency had to say about that phrase, one mighty and strong. Quote, perhaps no other passage in the revelations of Well, wow. I mean, in the 115 years that have passed since then, that's kind of cal Calm down a little bit. But that phrase, one mighty and strong, was a major concern and cause of speculation because people were saying, well, who is that? And painstakingly, and again, it's available. You can find it on the internet if you're looking for it.

But very painstakingly, they just lay out and say, this is talking about Bishop Partridge. He repented. One mighty and strong wasn't needed. The Lord didn't have to execute that second part of that clause. But I just find it interesting that twice, this was of such a concern at the time as they're trying to turn that key off for plural marriage with the manifesto and then what some call the second manifesto, just after the turn of the century, that it's a cause of concern. And just kind of an interesting note from section 85 to something that we don't, as we read it today, we don't have that same visceral reaction to that phrase in verse seven. Yeah, I would, that's not one I would have said, oh, I remember that phrase coming up in 1905. I hope you don't remember that phrase. Yeah. I don't want, we don't remember that phrase. Yeah, yeah.

I don't want, we don't want to offend any of our listeners, but we do want to help people understand what steady the ark might look like in 2021, where we go to, sometimes we want to go offer the bishop our unsolicited counsel. Is that? Or I've had a dream. Yeah, yeah. The Lord told me to tell you, you know, this. And I remember responding, if the Lord can't get through to me, he usually tells my wife. I have learned great respect for the keys. And as a bishop, I had a former area authority teaching gospel doctrine in our ward. And

whenever I happened to have the chance to go to gospel doctrine, he was so respectful of the keys. He always asked me, Bishop, I want you to have the last word today in gospel doctrine. And I also have learned when I'm going to do a fireside, I find the person with the keys and I say, this is exactly what I'm planning to talk about. Is that okay? And if you'd like to make any closing comments, of course, you know, I'd welcome, because I understand that idea. And I've learned that maybe things don't happen the way we think, but I have respect for the keys. And I think I showed that when I was given a chance to give them my sustaining vote. So I always try to be careful of that. I don't know.

That's my two cents. I like it. Yeah. Priesthood keys are so important. And if you look at it, there's very few actual key holders in the church. It's a very small number of key holders. And we share, I teach Religion 225 at Brigham Young University. It's Foundations of the Restoration. And in one of our early lessons, we share some basic principles with the students regarding revelation and just how the process works.

Because, you know, the Lord is so organized and so orderly and things function so well if you do it according to section 52 talks about his pattern. But one of the principles we teach them is what we call the law of stewardship or the principle of stewardship. And basically, it's that we can each receive an individual revelation and absolutely should, as President Nelson continually challenges us to do and to prepare and to recognize how we hear him. But at the same time, that revelation that we receive has boundaries. And our stewardship, if we are receiving revelation for those who are outside of our stewardship, especially those who hold priesthood keys, then you can take it to the bank that that revelation probably isn't coming from the source where you hope it is coming from. It's kind of like what happened in the early days of the church.

I know you discussed this in an earlier episode about Hiram Page and his seer stone. Because Hiram Page, I think, was trying to do the right thing. You know, he'd been told we can all receive revelation. The heavens are open. And, and so he goes out, takes a seer stone, which is a common thing to have at the time and ask for revelation. And he receives it. He just, unfortunately receives it from the wrong source because it's early and they're still learning as well. But, but I don't see that, you know, Hiram Page was trying to mislead the church. He was just misled and deceived himself. But if he'd understood that stewardship principle, and if you look in the early sections, especially

of the doctrine and covenants, boy, it's over and over and over. I, in section one, it's just multiple times and, you know, section 21, right while the church is being organized. And basically, just to paraphrase, it says, Joseph is the guy. That's rule one. And rule two is, see rule one. Joseph is the guy. And so as long as we keep that in mind, and today, you know, it's President Russell M. Nelson. And if we keep that in mind, we'll recognize that, you know, the Lord is never going to tell Brother Alford

what President Nelson needs to tell the church. That's just not going to happen. It's just not going to happen. I remember I taught early morning seminary for several years in several states as we moved around. And in one of my classes in Virginia, one of my really, really great seminary students came up to me after class. He hung around and he was about to miss the bus to go to high school. But he said, Brother Alfred, I need to tell you, how do I get in touch with the prophet? It was President Hinckley at the time. He said, how do I get in touch with the prophet? It was President Hinckley at the time. He said,

how do I get in touch with the prophet? Because I have a message from God for him. I received it last night while I was dreaming. And I know it's a message. I need to tell him that he needs to change something. And so I didn't call it the principle of stewardship at the time, but I sat down and kind of explained how things worked and that actually, no, that's not the way it works. The other thing I tell my students is if you find yourself on the steps of the church office building with people with protest placards, and they're shouting down the prophets and Korma the 12,

you're in the wrong crowd. You need to leave. And, you know, it's just the 12, you're in the wrong crowd. You need to leave. And, you know, it's just the way this works, stewardship and revelation and keys, it's such a wonderful thing, but it can absolutely be misused or abused if we don't understand the Lord's process. Yeah. And he's organized it for that specific reason. So we can know where this comes from. And I've seen it happen for me, Ken. I don't know if you've seen this, but I've seen it happen where men who hold the priesthood

think that somehow because they hold the priesthood, they direct, they can direct the women of the church in no matter what position they're in. And that, again, is a matter of priesthood keys. You may hold the priesthood, but that doesn't give you any stewardship at all over the Young Women's President or the Relief Society President. You holding the priesthood, you're not the key holder. The bishop is. Section 121 defines that. It's two words, unrighteous dominion. Yeah. I'm glad we, I'm glad, steady the ark. That's such an interesting phrase that... But you know, interestingly, if you look at the Old Testament, does anybody else ever touch the ark recorded in the scriptures?

Not that, yeah, no. No, Uzzah becomes the, you know, the role model on what to do. But I think the message gets out, at least on that point. Israel has other problems, as we still do today. But touching the ark doesn't ever seem to be a problem again. The Lord said X, Uzzah did Y, and he paid the consequence. So, yeah, it's a great concept. Steadying the arc. We just need to make sure we're supportive of church leaders and not trying to supplant them.

What do you call that, John? A sermon in a sentence? Is that what you've called it before? Yeah. Yeah. I've noticed when I mark my scriptures, I usually mark phrases, not entire verses. And sometimes you'll see a sermon in a sentence. And that's one of those. I'm going to look up a quote real quick.

Do you guys remember who it was from? Somebody in conference, I think it was Elder Anderson, said, don't be more interested in changing the church than changing yourself. Well, it reminds me while you're looking that up of Alma to Corianton, you know, you worried about this, you worried about this, you marvel about this, you think this is unjust. And then at the end of his four chapters, he says, let not these things trouble you, only let your sins trouble you. You're worried about the wrong thing, son.

Sometimes when I've read that steadity arc, I've thought, you know, just between us, gosh, that seems kind of harsh. He was just trying to help. But I guess that that was, um, the commandment not to do that was well known, right? Uzzah had to know that they, the way they did rules back then and teaching back then, I mean, things were pretty clear, pretty clear cut with the law of Moses. And, and so Uzzah must have known what he have known what he was doing, or I don't think the Lord would have exacted that penalty. Well, you know, revelation's an interesting thing. It's a bit of a balancing act, isn't it? Yeah. You don't want revelation, you don't want to let it swing too far to the left or too far to the right.

President Oaks tells a wonderful story. I may get some of the details wrong, but as I recall the story, a young lady comes up to him and is just so excited. And she says, I'm dating or I've married this most wonderful person. And he's so spiritual. He prays about, when we go to the supermarket, he even prays about what kind of beans we should buy. And President Oaks said, oh, sister, basically the Lord doesn't care what kind of beans you eat. You know, Del Monte and Green Giant are both okay. And there's a line of things you pray over.

I remember having one missionary acquaintance in my mission field that prayed over what tie he should wear every day. And quite frankly, it's, Elder, you got a blue one and a black one, and they're both going to be okay. You know, at the same time, sometimes I think we don't bring the Lord in on decisions that, oh, I think he's just waiting to help us out. And we have to, we have to, I think, sometimes initiate that conversation by asking. I've had students tell me that, you know, they didn't feel the need to pray about who they were marrying. And in my mind, if that's not one you pray over, I don't know what rises to the level of requiring assistance from the Holy Ghost. So, and each person's different, you know, and I think about the things I prayed over when I was five and six and the things I pray over now, and I'll be real honest with you, they're very

different lists. And so I think as we go through life that that list changes and Heavenly Father understands that. And as we mature in the gospel, our prayers change. But just a couple of, I guess, concluding thoughts on that is first, how wonderful that it's available. Oh my gosh, how wonderful that it's available. The gift of the Holy Ghost, you know, the Lord calls it an unspeakable gift. And that's just the best definition, I think. It's just an unspeakable gift. It can tell you all things. And it's our responsibility, I think, to figure out how the Holy Ghost can best help us and where, you know,

when we trouble Him and when we don't. And there is, you know, some things that definitely no, and some things definitely yes, and some things that are in the gray area. And if you're concerned about it, my advice is pray and ask the Lord for assistance on what's concerning you, because the Lord has our best interest always at heart. And he knows what our needs are, as it says, before we even ask in the scriptures. And so, revelation is just an interesting thing. It's easy to go off the rails over revelation questions. And so, again, I think the Holy Ghost is the one that keeps us on the rails in this and just absolutely everything else. Yeah. I think Joseph Smith, in my mind, is just a prime example of a keyholder

in that he would tell people what the revelation he was receiving by priesthood keys, but he always directed people, go to the Lord, ask him yourself if this is correct, if this is right, have your own experience. So as a priesthood, if I'm a priesthood holder that holds the keys to stewardship, the keys of the priesthood, I should have no fear of people going to the Lord themselves and getting a second witness of what I'm directing them to do. There shouldn't be any fear there or even, you know, being offended that someone wants to go to the Lord for themselves because, you know, because I already told them what to do. I love what you said. There's a delicate balance there. And well, I think, was that the

same talk Elder Oaks said? You have two lines of revelation. You have your personal line to the Lord and you have your priesthood line to the Lord and you have access to both. So Edward Partridge was faithful to the end after this. And does that idea negate the idea of one mighty and strong coming along, making this prophecy kind of a conditional thing if Edward Partridge didn't do what he was supposed to? Well, that first presidency publication twice from 1905 and 1907 addresses Edward Partridge in detail. It addresses his situation. And the first presidency said this. They said, the man who was called and appointed of God

to divide into the saints their inheritance, Edward Partridge, was at the time Joseph wrote. So this is in November 27th of 1832. At the time was out of order. That's the phrase the first presidency used. Neglecting his own duty and putting forth his hand to steady the ark. Hence, he was warned of the judgment of God. And the prediction was made about another one mighty and strong.

Okay. But then it goes on to say that in the midst of these times, Edward Partridge acted a most noble and self-sacrificing part and bore many indignities with the greatest patience. He was taken to the public square of independence, partly stripped of his clothing and bedobbed with tar and feathers amid the jeers of the letter. I mean, he comes back. And then the first presidency continues further in that letter and says, Who shall say that his repentance, Edward Partridge, his sacrifices, his sufferings and faithfulness did not procure for him a mitigation of the severe judgment decreed against him in the revelation contained in the 85th section of the Doctrine and Covenants?

At any rate, the Lord said some three years later that he was well pleased with Edward Partridge. And so, yeah, Edward Partridge, in fact, after he is just brutalized by the mob there in front of the courthouse in Independence, which is just down the street recovers. And he dies, I believe, about seven years later as the church is entering into Nauvoo. He just never, never fully recovers. But he was willing to do that. And so that statement about the one mighty and strong, the first presidency, the gist of what they were saying is it became Nolan Void. Yes. In the 1830s, that became Nolan Void. We are not looking for one mighty and strong to come forward today to grab the scepter and save the church. That Edward Partridge rose to the occasion, repented, and the Lord accepted his repentance.

And Edward Partridge was one of the truly good guys in this dispensation. Ken, you're doing something I love here, which is protecting the saints of the past, protecting their name, protecting their reputation? There's so many who want to focus on their weaknesses. If you wanted to, you could write a book on Edward Partridge and all the things he did wrong. And the book might be factually correct, but you would not be judging him. You would not be judging him correctly. He's a great.

You would miss the man. You would miss the man. You would miss the man. Just a quick story I love about Edward Partridge is the Lord reveals the law of consecration in section 42. You know, there's those verses starting about verse 30 and then some later verses, but it's not a lot of detail. And then Edward Partridge as his bishop, is given the instruction, comes from the Lord through Joseph, to go up to Thompson, Ohio when the Colville Saints arrive and basically put the law into practice. He's a hatter. You know, he can make those Colville Saints hats and they'll look really stylish, but he's not a lawyer. He's not a real estate agent. And so I love it that he's willing to tell Joseph, Joseph, I need some instructions. How am I supposed to do this?

What does it mean? And the Lord, I just love section 51. In the Book of Commandments, somebody wrote on it, don't publish or not to be published or something like that across the top of the page. And I'm so glad that they did publish it, that W.W. Phelps typecast that and put it into the Book of Commandments because the instructions that Edward Partridge receives enables him to begin executing the law. And he's, yeah, I think Edward Partridge is one of the real heroes from the early years of the church. I mean, the first bishop called in almost two millennia. Yeah.

What a staggering responsibility. Yeah. And we can do the same thing with our leaders and our bishops, right? I mean, when our bishop is up there and we see, oh, he may be doing something we wouldn't say, or he's doing something we wouldn't do, we'd say, well, he wasn't seeking this position. He wasn't, you know, he wasn't, hopefully I can run the ward soon, right? I have a wonderful bishop. He's in human resources, right? That's his employment.

And he's doing things that he did not probably want or ever, you know, thought he would do, but he's doing them. And it's not my place to correct him. I just think he's got a great soul and I'm amazed at all the sacrifice he offers. One of the things I learned when I was bishop about studying the ark was I learned that bishops know a lot of things that nobody else knows. And I just thought after like a couple of months, I was like, you know, I am never going to question again because there's just other things that nobody else knows about what's going on that you're trying to navigate. And I just thought, I'm just not going to, I'm just going to support the keys because I know that there's things that I don't know. And I think we, I love that we can trust the Lord to communicate with

his leaders. I guess just one parting shot and a thought on section 85 is, you know, yay for them writing these things down. Yay for them saving them. You know, today, I think we don't commit enough. Our conversations are on email and they disappear. Our conversations are over the phone and they disappear. Our conversations are, they've been on Zoom in the last year or so and they disappear. And there's something to be said for permanence. And if you look at the words of prophets and apostles and their counsel, there's frequent and repetitive counsel to keep journals, to keep, you know, whether it's a gratitude journal or a daily journal, whatever it might be, but to record some of these things. And quite frankly, there have been times in my life when I'm really great at journal keeping and there have been times in my life when I'm not really great at journal keeping.

And being good at journal keeping, it's better. It's at this stage in life, it's so much fun to be able to go back and check something and go, oh, you know, I had remembered that a little bit wrong in the years. But there it is recorded on the day it happened. And that's the way it was because I recorded it then. And so I think maybe the fact this is not Joseph's only letter in the Doctrine and Covenants. There are actually several letters. I mean, Section 127, 128, there are letters, Section 121, 122, 123.

There's lots of letters. And so I think there's something to be said for us just remembering that we need to record much of our life so that our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren can benefit from that. I just had the opportunity over the past year during the pandemic. One of the projects I took on was taking my mother and father's journals. Mom's turning 90 this year and dad just turned 91. And they've got 7,000 pages of journals that we've turned into PDF pages for all of their posterity. And it's so much fun to be able to just have that record. And I will confess it has

spurred me to be more diligent in my record keeping. And so I would just give that as a, you know, that's not one of the direct messages out of section 85, but I think it's an ancillary one that's just useful to remember. Yeah. Let me mention a paragraph from the Come Follow Me manual before we go forward. It says, the history described in verse one recorded the names of those who had received inheritances legally in Zion. However, this history was more than just administrative. It was also a valuable record of the saints, quote, manner of life, their faith and works, close quote. That's from verse two. And then the Come Follow Me manual says, are you keeping a personal history or journal?

What could you record about your manner of life, faith and works that might be a blessing to future generations? How might this history be a blessing for you? So I think that's exactly what you were saying, Ken. Thank you. Yeah. Let's go now to section 86. Can you give us some backstory and background of what's happening before we dive into the verses here? You bet.

Section 86 actually follows section 85 just by a little more than a week. It's the 6th of December, 1832. And we don't know absolutely for certain, but there's enough little breadcrumbs and clues that lead folks to conclude that this section looks like it clearly comes out of Joseph's work on what we call today the Joseph Smith translation, which the Doctrine and Covenants calls the new translation or simply the translation. So just very briefly then, Joseph has Oliver Cowdery purchase a Finney Cooperstown Bible, as it's called today, an 1828 edition. And then there are various scribes and Joseph uses that. He calls it the main branch of his calling for a period. And it's the way that the Lord does a couple of things. First, he teaches Joseph additional things about the gospel.

Joseph learns a great deal about gospel principles. During that translation, he also receives numerous revelations. Oh my goodness, there are dozens of revelations in the Doctrine and Covenants that tie either directly like section 76 or indirectly like section 91 to the translation of the Joseph Smith translation. This is one of those sections. And so what happens is they start doing the Old Testament. And then in section 45, Joseph's told, hey, you're asking great questions

on some things. Go do the New Testament. So they leave the Old Testament alone. Go do the New Testament. Then when they finish that, they go back, pick up the Old Testament, and then reach the Apocrypha in section 91. And that's another story for another day. But they have gone through the New Testament for the first time about a year before this revelation is recorded. Now, interestingly, it looks like from the record that we have of Joseph's work on the Joseph Smith

translation, that Joseph made no changes to Matthew 13 regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares. The first time Joseph went through it, they just didn't make any changes. And so what it looks like was happening here in December 1832 is that Sidney Rigdon is once again with Joseph as scribe. By this point, as they're reviewing the material, Sidney Rigdon is the main scribe. He's assigned that responsibility in section 35. But by this point, Frederick G. Williams is serving as Joseph's primary scribe as he's kind of touching up and working on final edits of the Joseph Smith translation. But for whatever reason, Sidney Rigdon comes in and is helping Joseph at this point. And we know that because it's in Sidney Rigdon's handwriting. And what

happens is it looks like Joseph just receives additional guidance and inspiration about those verses in Matthew 13, in the King James Version. And Joseph receives this information, and what he learns from section 86 is that this is very much a parable of the last days. It has an application for the early apostles. And when the Savior gives that parable, if you turn to Matthew 13, the apostles ask, because it's also after the parable of the sower. Those two parables, parable of the sower and parable of wheat and tares kind of go together. They're in almost neighboring verses in Matthew 13. But the apostles don't understand either one. And they asked the Lord, please help us out.

Tell us what they mean. And so Jesus explains both of them to them. But what we learn in section 86 is that through the years, there's been a major error creep in to the Bible as we have it today regarding the parable of the wheat and the tares. Because in the Bible, it says that the wheat and the tares are there and that what will happen is in Matthew 13, 30, it says, gather ye together. So go out and do the harvest. Gather ye together.

And in Matthew, in the Bible, it says, first, the tares. Well, the Joseph Smith translation and Doctrine and Covenants 86 now absolutely turn that around. And what it says in Joseph Smith Matthew is, first the wheat into my barn. Or as it says in section 86, let the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest is fully ripe. Then ye shall first gather out the wheat. Now, think about the way the gospel is being, you know, shared with the world in these, the latter days. Are we going out and gathering wicked people,

people that are trying to tear down the church? No, we're gathering those that are seeking Christ. And our invitation is to invite all to come unto Christ. And that doesn't mean that someone that was doing something wrong can't repent and straighten up and join the church. But those that are actively working against the cause of God, you know, the way the Matthew account is, is they're supposed to be gathered first. And that's just not the way it works. And so I think it's helpful to remember with section 86, there's a statement from Elder Bruce R. McConkie in the doctrinal New Testament commentary. He kind of talks about parables because I think sometimes we think that parables are designed to enlighten us and make things crystal clear. And Elder McConkie points out very clearly. He says, parables seldom clarify a truth.

Rather, they obscured and hide the doctrine involved so that none but only those that are already enlightened and informed are able to grasp the full meaning. And then Elder McConkie said, nowhere is this better illustrated than the parable of the wheat and the tares. When Jesus first gave the parables, even the disciples didn't understand it. They asked for an interpretation and he gave it, well, partially. The Lord still had to give a special revelation, and that's section 86, in the latter days. So the full meaning of this marvelous parable might sink into the hearts of men. So as you look at section 86, the question, I guess, is what new things do we learn in section 86? And I think the big thing we learn is that it's the wheat that's gathered first. We're looking for people that want to come unto Christ. That's

the key. Gospel will be offered to everyone, but we're seeking those who want to come unto Christ. But section 86 also teaches who the sower is, because the parable talks about a man going out and sowing. And section 86 clearly says, that's the apostles. They have that responsibility. And if you think of what an apostle is, it's a special representative of Christ, you know, whose mission is to help us come unto the Savior. It also clearly defines in section 86 who the enemy is. And it says very clearly, it's Satan, it's Babylon, it's the world. That's who the tares are. It also defines, see, and this wouldn't have made a lot of sense to the apostles back in the meridian of time because there had been no apostasy. But he talks about in section 86, the apostles falling asleep because the apostles were killed and an apostasy occurred. And it talks about the church in the wilderness,

which wouldn't have made a great deal of sense probably to those early apostles. That's the apostasy. It helps us better understand what it means to be tender wheat. Section 86 defines it as weakness or newness in the gospel. You know, people whose testimonies are still maybe a little shaky and developing. It also helps us, I think, see a little bit clearer that tares are, you know, not just those that fight against the church, but also, you know, probably also evil doctrines that they're espousing.

And then it talks about the harvest and the burning. And now in this dispensation, that's the millennium, which is, you know, going to be a key point in this dispensation. And it points out that the angels are anxious to reap. And Wilford Woodruff and others have had comments about that. And so section 86, it's a wonderful, wonderful section that the Lord takes. The Doctrine and Covenants is sometimes a wonderful commentary on other scripture. And this is a classic example of the Doctrine and Covenants being commentary on, in this case, the Bible, Matthew chapter 13.

One other thing that we get from Joseph's work with the Joseph Smith translation that figures into this, because it talks in section 86 about the end of the world. And in Joseph Smith Matthew, or you can go to the Joseph Smith translation, both because Joseph Smith, Matthew, of course, is just excerpt from the JST, but it,

it says there in Joseph Smith, Matthew one, verse four, that as he Christ sat upon the Mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately saying, tell us when shall these things be, which thou said, which thou has said concerning the destruction of the temple and the Jews?

And what is the sign of thy coming? Or the end of the world? And then Joseph adds this wonderful phrase in the Joseph Smith translation. Or the destruction of the wicked, which is the end of the world. And so that's also, I think, alluded to in section 86 that it's talking about the end of the world. You so we, that's also, I think alluded to in, in section 86, that it's talking about the, the end of the world. You know,

there've been lots of people. We always have that image of the guy with the long beard and the sign, you know, walking around the end is near. Well, the, the end of the world is the destruction of the wicked as, you know,

preparing us for the millennial, the millennial reign of the savior. When there will be, when you're not going to have to lock your car. You're not going to have to lock your front door. Okay. And people that were in the military like me are going to be out of a job. There's not going to be a need for, they won't make war anymore. Oh, I love it. And so, so section 86 is just, it's just fun. I just, I just really love it when the Lord kind of takes Joseph and he puts his arm around him and just kind of says, hey, I'm going to pull the curtain back for you. Yeah, I love it.

So let me pull it back. These scriptures have been there. People have been reading for thousands of years. Let me pull the curtain back. Here's what it means. And I just love that when that happens. And section 86 is a classic case. Elder Maxwell called that like exploring a new room in the scriptures, right?

In your own house where you find a new fireplace to be warmed by. I wrote a book on parables. It sold dozens of copies, mostly to my mother. But I learned something very important in verse three that has impacted me. He throws in, Ken, the Lord throws in in verse three, a little bit of the parable of the sower when he says the tares or the weeds choke the wheat in verse three. And if you go to Matthew 13, verse 22, this is how that happens. How do tares choke the wheat or saints? He says, these are people who receive the seed, but the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word and he becometh unfruitful.

That's a place where I stop with my students and say, what are the cares of this world? And what are the deceitfulness of riches that can spoil our faith, that can choke out our faith. There is so much to learn there because as I become more and more worldly, right, as I get caught up in whatever's happening in the world and I just don't have time for the Lord. It's not that the soil's bad. I've just got so many other weeds in my life that the testimony doesn't get any time. It doesn't get any sunlight. It doesn't get any resources because, hey, I've got a lot going on, right? I've got seasons on Netflix I need to watch. I've got professional basketball

games recorded. I don't think this is bad people. This is when I allow the, what did you call it? Is it the doctrine of the world? I think you called it, Ken, to just choke my life. It takes all the resources, takes all my time, takes all my energy. And that, oh, it has scared me. And I think the parables of Jesus, Elder McConkie was right. He veils the meaning. And then when you see it unveiled, it should scare you because then you find out you've got a lot of changing to do. Well, and once you understand it, then you're responsible for it. Kahnke also said, he made a comment about the parable of the sower and talked about that type of soil. He called it the four kinds of soil, because really it's more about the soil than it is about the sower. But he said that the place where it fell among thorns with the weeds is good soil as evidenced by the growth of the undesirable plants. But he used the phrase, but the tears end up choking them. Maybe he got that from section 86.

Instead of overcoming them, they get choked by the tears. And I just wanted to add that I came across a book years ago called Money for Nothing. It was about people who had won the lottery in Michigan. And there were a couple of chapters, a few chapters in this book, where people who won the lottery said, this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. And one guy said, I made some investments and I spend my life now with lawyers and lawsuits every day. Another person said, we used to shop at this mom and pop grocery store and they were so nice. They'd always put a couple of extra oranges or extra apples in our bag.

And now that they know we've won the lottery, nobody does that anymore. This is the worst thing that's ever happened to me. Whenever I talk about those weeds, the deceitfulness of riches that you mentioned, I always like to say, how are riches deceitful? And if you think, if I just had that, then everything would be fine. Well, no, it just gives you a new set of problems maybe in some ways. And that's how they can be deceitful. People are saying, and I know, Hank, you've got lots of jokes about money can't buy happiness. But I thought, you know, these people are saying, yeah, I want a million dollars. It's the worst thing that's ever happened to me.

I'm like, what? Yeah. And it seems that the Lord knows. What did Paul say? The love of money is the root of all evil. Not money. It's the love of money that is the root of all evil. Man, Ken, I really love this section now.

It's a fun section. And the Joseph Smith translation is just filled with nuggets. And when you get something in the Doctrine and Covenants that expands what's in the Joseph Smith translation, it's a double win. It's just very cool. It's one thing to have a commentary right about the parables. I tried that too, Hank, but to have the Savior comment on his own parable, it's like having a Benedi comment on Isaiah. Oh, thank you. A prophet can comment on this prophet. That's hard to understand.

That's so helpful. Ken, I really liked when you talked about verse four, the blade is yet tender, says it again in verse six, the blade is yet tender. Early days of the church. Verily your faith is weak. Yeah, this is a brand new little church and he's, the Lord is kind of sheltering it. You can say say, trying to protect it from those tears. And we can do the same thing for new members, for children and youth, right? Protect those tender testimonies from the great persecutor of the church, right?

Verse three. There's a great great phrase from elder holland and i i would have to look up which talk it was in but i remember the phrase and he says it's always 1830 somewhere and i love that phrase that somewhere in the world it's always 1830 there's just a little band of saints the gospel has just barely been introduced there. And the blade is yet tender, you know, tender and young. And so I just think, you know, wherever you are listening to this, that probably not too far away that there's either, you know, a branch of the church where it's like 1830 or there are individual members of the church where in their family and their home, it's like 1830. They've just received the Book of Mormon.

They're just learning these doctrines, and the wheat is still tender and green. I love it. And we can do a lot to protect those tender, those tender blades. Please join us for part two of this podcast.