followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 88 Part 1 : Dr. Anthony Sweat

Episode Date: August 7, 2021

How do we prepare for heaven on earth and what is the other Comforter? Dr. Anthony Sweat returns to discuss Section 88 and how we can become a celestial people. Learning from "The Olive Leaf," the Saints learn how to prepare the world, and themselves, for the return of the Savior.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John, by the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Welcome, my friends, to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith and I am here with my beloved co-host John, by the way. Hi, John. Hi, Hank. I like that one. And you look jazzed today. Yeah. I, we call you, we call you John, the beloved sometimes, uh, because you are a beloved soul. You are a beloved soul. We want to remind everybody to come on to social media. Give us a try on Instagram and Facebook. You can find video recordings on our YouTube channel, transcripts and show notes at follow

him.co follow him.co. And of course we want you to rate and review the podcast that helps us out quite a bit. Now, John, we get to talk to one of the great minds in the church every week. It's not every week that we get to talk to a great mind and someone who we've already visited with and who we are good friends with. So tell us who we have this week. We're so excited to have Tony Sweat back again and really excited that he's going to talk about this section too. And in fact, I didn't tell Tony this was coming, but this little book, The Holy Invitation,

really has blessed my children as they are preparing to go to the temple. And I thought since I read his long bio before, I'd read the one in the back of this book, which was published in 2017. And then maybe Tony can give us any updates. But here's our short bio from the About the Author on the last page. Anthony Sweat is an assistant professor of church history and doctrine at Brigham Young University. He's the author of numerous bestselling books and a regular speaker at various LDS events and conferences. He received a BFA in painting and drawing from the University of Utah and an MED and PhD degrees in education from Utah State University. He and his wife Cindy are parents of seven children

and reside in Utah. And we're so glad to have you back, Tony. Thanks for being willing to come again. I'm so honored to be on here again with both of you on this wonderful podcast with both my friends. I just love you both so much and so grateful to be here. John, when we first started, I knew that this year would be Doctrine and Covenants and Tony lives a good 500 yards away from me. And we've been friends for many years. And so I immediately called him and said, hey, what am I going to do with the Doctrine and Covenants and church history? How's this going to work? And he said, I think something like this, like, I don't know.

You'll do great. I'm like, will you be our first guest? Yes. As long as I can do section 88, like there was, there was something about 88. And of course I'm like,

yeah, sure. Sure. Yeah. You can have 88. I don't, you know, and I didn't realize that this is a landmark section. This, this is something that I don't know, but in my,

in my kids' video game language, we, I think we level up here. Tony, I know you're excited about it. I know you love it. And that's going to be, that's going to be probably one of the best parts of our conversation today. So I'm just going to kind of, we're just going to hand it over to you back up as far as you want to give us some context and some history to what leads up to this and let's go from there. Okay. All right. I'll, I'll back up in the beginning. God created the heavens and the earth and the earth was without form and void. Can you go back further, please please i won't go that that far no actually half joking that does have something to do with that and i'll i'll kind of tie in as joseph like we've talked about before his translation of the bible is going to affect

section 88 or affect what's going on uh in particular with the school of the prophets in section 88 but um i mean this I mean, this, this, this really is a landmark revelation, as Hank said, where we were half joking, uh, before we hit record on this, that Joseph Smith has just barely turned 27. And, uh, we, we miscalculated his age at first. I said, I think he's like 26. And they were like, no, no, no, he's 27. We're like, oh yeah, that explains it. You know, now he can produce a revelation like this. This is a soul-stirring, soul-expanding revelation. It covers everything from, you know, the light of Christ that governs everything to planets. and there's parables, there is specific instructions,

there's school of the prophets, there's build a temple, there is things about the second coming, there's great one-liners in here. I mean, it is a revelation among revelations. Again, I know I'll never tire of saying this. If you want to reconfirm or deepen your testimony in the prophetic calling of Joseph Smith, just read something like section 88 and ask yourself repeatedly, where did this come from? It's just unbelievable to me, these kind of revelations that are so expanding and exalting. Last week, we talked to Dr. Ken Alford about war, Section 87. And so he talked about how these two go together, that you can put them side by side. So yeah, go back as far as you want.

So, you know, Dr. Alford, I love to death also. He's a great friend of mine. If you want to do this, you know, if you have your printed version, you know, you could section, circle section 87 where it says revelation on war that Joseph has given on Christmas Day in 1832. And then flip the page and go over to this section 88 revelation on peace. He calls it, you know, if you look at the section heading, the olive leaf plucked from the tree of paradise, the Lord's message of peace to us. And I want to give a little more context.

I think that's appropriate. And actually in your Come Follow Me materials from the church, they highlight that. That's not how Joseph Smith himself contextualizes Section 88. And one of the best things we get, the reason why he calls it the olive leaf, you know, obviously it's plucked from paradise because there's such soul-exalting doctrines in here. But there's also some tension going on between leaders of the church in Ohio and leaders of the church in Missouri. You know, it just, it's never good when you're trying to run back in the 1800s.

It was just difficult running a church that was hundreds and hundreds of miles away when you have one body in Ohio and one body out in Missouri. There was just communication. There was issues with leadership, with how we're doing things. Joseph, you know, why are you in Ohio if Zion's in Missouri? There were different things going on that there seems to be continued tension all the way through the year 1832 between the leaders in Missouri and Ohio. And let me just read you a little bit from a letter where we get this from is a letter that Joseph Smith writes to W.W. Phelps over in Missouri. He writes it on January 11th, 1833,

so just a few weeks after Section 88 is given. And that's where Joseph Smith sends section 88 to the saints over in Missouri and calls it the olive leaf. That's where we're getting that quote from in the section heading is this letter to WW Phelps. So, um, this is, this is what Joseph said. I send you the olive leaf, which we have plucked from the tree of paradise, the Lord's message of peace to us. Now, here's why I'm saying, here's the next line in the letter, the context. For though our brethren in Zion indulge in feelings toward us, which are not according to the requirements of the new covenant, yet we have the satisfaction of knowing the Lord approves and has accepted us

and established his name in Kirtland. So it's like, this is the Lord's message of peace to us. So even though you guys are upset at us and are having hard feelings toward us, hey, this revelation shows the Lord's happy with what we're doing here in Ohio. That's one of the major context of it. And later in the letter, Joseph writes, our hearts are greatly grieved at the spirit which is breathed both in your letter, that's W.W. Phelps, and that of brother Sidney Gilbert, the wearying spirit which is wasting the strengths of Zion like a pestilence. So, there's like, they wrote some critical letters. Yeah, ouch. We don't have W.W. Phelps or Sidney Gilbert's letter that they wrote, but we have

this that shows that it wasn't, they weren't kind letters. They wrote these letters in mid-December. We also have, this is out of Joseph Smith Papers editors, they write, other communications from Missouri elders early in 1832 had revealed a rift between church leaders in Missouri and Ohio. In part to resolve these differences, Joseph Smith traveled to Missouri in the spring of 1832 and met with various leaders, but subsequent letters indicated the problems remained. In July of 1832, Joseph Smith reproved W. W. Phelps for his, quote, cold and indifferent spirit and accused other Missouri leaders of raking up every fault and looking for motes in the eyes of those who are laboring with a tender and prayerful heart

for their salvation. So that's a long way to say there's not happy feelings between Ohio and Missouri leaders right now. And this revelation seems to be saying, the Lord saying, let me give a message of peace. Let me settle your hearts. Let me tell you in Kirtland anyway, at least, that I'm happy with you. I'm pleased. But then the Lord is also going to lay out a number of things that I think will try to help the Latter-day Saints live more, as Joseph said, have feelings more that are in

harmony with the covenant and more of a celestial approach with each other, both in Ohio and Missouri. Let me ask you, because I know these are good men out in Missouri. So what is causing, do you think, do they feel like, hey, we're out here in the middle of no man, you know, in the middle of nowhere, because we've talked about what Missouri's like, it's not what they had expected. So I don't want to excuse their, what did he call it? Their wearying complaints that are like a pestilence. Orson Hyde and Hiram Smith call W.W. Phelps and Sidney Gilbert's letters, quote, low, dark and blind insinuations. We can use those words, Hank.

Man. So, so let's give me the perspective of those out in Missouri. Why are they so, what's happening out there? Do you think that they're just so frustrated that they're sending, these are good people sending this, these frustrating letters. Is it just, hey, you're over in Kirtland where it's 1832. We're out in Missouri where they live like it's 1621, right? Like, yeah, you know, it's what's hard is it's all, it really is all conjecture because we don't have a lot of, you know, like Gilbert's and Phelps letter and different things, but it's easy to see that there's some fault finding going on. It's easy to see that there's some second guessing. One of the ways that I think that justifies this is in the future when you study section

101 and the Lord gives the parable of the tower in that section, it says that they begin to consult amongst themselves in Zion over in Missouri and to question and to be set at variance one with another. So it seems to be second guessing of leadership, which is a natural human tendency, whether in our families, we second guess our parents when we're growing up, you know, at school, our teachers, our coaches. I mean, how many times have you heard people complain about the way a coach runs things or a teacher or their boss at work? Or even in the church, people who are doing their very best to live consecrated lives and to serve out of just good hearts. We find ourselves becoming critical and having moats in our eyes and looking for beams in others.

I think it's a part of fallen human nature. I have never heard someone criticize a church leader. I don't know what you guys are talking about. I've never heard someone criticize the bishop or the, yeah, or the Relief Society president. I mean, this happens all the time. All the time. And so I think it's just, you know, like you said, you were saying, Hank, these people out in Missouri, bless their souls, they are doing hard work and they are giving, sacrificing and doing their very best. But like all of us, both in Ohio and in Missouri, we are facing a fight against fallen man to try to live a more celestial way of life. And that's what they're fighting against. And that seems to be... So some of Section 88 is, again, going to try to address this of like,

if you guys want to be endowed with power in your life, we've got to rise above light speeches and evil speaking and fault finding. Quit finding fault with one another. You'll see these hints throughout Section 88 of some of the things they're struggling with. Yeah. And I would imagine, and maybe I'm off here, Tony, you can tell me, but I would imagine that if I know the leaders in Ohio have homes and beds and stores and all these things around them, and'm out here in missouri where there's bars and angry neighbors that i would say how oh life is so easy for you out there in kirtland yeah and i think there's there's got to be some of that and again that's just assumptions on our end but right they

are living as you've as you've talked about in previous episodes they are living on the frontier and there's probably part of them like yeah you're back in ohio where it's more comfortable They are living, as you've talked about in previous episodes, they are living on the frontier. And there's probably part of them like, yeah, you're back in Ohio where it's more comfortable and up to speed. And we're out here roughing it. Why don't you came out here and visit us? But why are you not staying with us? If this is going to be where Zion is built, shouldn't the prophet be here? Now, that's just conjecture.

I want to say that. We don't know. But we don't know but we don't know but that seems like a logical inference that that could be made as well okay yeah i love these poor you know these poor souls these are real people and i love to get the context because you're saying yeah that look at them they're they're human yeah and i want to be careful, too. You know, no leader is faultless. And surely Joseph has faults. He'd be the first to say.

And so do parents and coaches and bishops. And so it's not an issue of saying, hey, if there are faults and problems, let's ignore them. We don't ignore them. We do bring them up. But I think we do it in a spirit of charity, which is what Section 88 will say. Clothe yourself with the bonds of charity, which is what Section 88 will say, clothe yourself with the bonds of charity. We do it assuming good intent for the most part, because people are trying to do good instead of a spirit of harsh judgment, harsh criticism, harsh, unfair accusation.

That seems to be what's driving a wedge. I would say I going to bring back something S. Michael Wilcox talked about, John, when he said, we live in a culture of outrage, right? Let me find something to be outraged about. And you usually can find something if you want to. Oh, gosh, yeah. Listen to the radio.

I think it's called K Outrage is the channel I listen to. No, every day there's something to be mad about. But I mean, John and Hank, you guys, I'll put you guys on the spot. Section 121, you know, no power influence can be had or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood only by... Persuasion. Gentleness. Long suffering. Love unfeigned.

Yeah. Kindness, pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy and without guile. How'd I do there? You've passed, my brother. Thanks, thanks. These are principles they're trying to learn in how to live and communicate celestially. And they continue over years and years and years. And so do you and I.

Yeah. But, man, to get some of these harsh letters, that would be hurtful. If I got a harsh email from Tony, I'd be like, hey. Yeah, easy. Easy. Yeah, I'm doing my best. Walk a best mile over to my house and talk to me. I'm going to go back to my lean to and fire off a letter. And I just, the means I don't think we, um, maybe those of us who, who, who just are so used to our

day and time can understand the frustration of writing a letter and getting a response what two and a half months later i mean and and you need information and trying to i served my mission in bolivia and in the 90s and it took two weeks for letters to get to us and if we wrote it took two weeks so it was a month cycle of communication which is something that in today's day and age, younger people don't understand, but you did feel distant. I felt like I was on a whole nother planet and I can see that Ohio and Missouri, it kind of felt like they were running their own churches a little bit at this time. Yeah. There's just that you're going to, Edward Partridge is just going to have to move forward, right? You can't wait for an answer for every move.

Yeah. Because it's going to take two and a half months. And that's if Joseph gets it and responds and sends it right back. Right away. Right? Yeah. You feel like we kind of understand what's happening that leads up to it that's really the main context of why joseph calls it the olive leaf but

and you'll you'll see some of that context in some of the revelations but other than that then the lord just explodes ideas and if if we want to move into content, like an easy way I would summarize section 88 for people at home, if they're getting ready to study it, what I'd invite you to do is to ask yourself, what do we learn about heaven and how to prepare ourselves for heaven on earth? That's kind of what section 88 is getting at as a whole you know if that was a look for what are you going to learn about heaven and then what do you learn uh by you and i to prepare ourselves on earth for heaven when heaven comes to earth like it's it's trying to prepare a celestial people as a whole yeah so that 127 through the end is that january 3rd revelation and you you can see a shift there

you know 126 there's an amen unto myself amen and again the order of the house prepared for the presidency they actually treated these as two different revelations um and then when they printed the 1835 edition of the doctrine of covenants they're subsumed into one because this last part gives instructions for the school of the prophets. So since 88 tells them to start the school of prophets, they're joined together into one. Some of our listeners may have visited the Newell K. Whitney store and been upstairs. And if I remember right, the missionaries told us, this room right here adjacent to the school of the prophets, other side of the wall. This is where section 88 was given. And I looked at the sister missionaries.

Do you get to like do gospel study in this room? Yeah. How cool is that? Is that where it was given? Yeah. It was probably received there and Joseph had that adjacent room, what's sometimes called his revelation room. There's so much here that we better get started because the Sabbath is coming in a few days. Tony, you mentioned something, these little phrases in here that are just amazingly beautiful and profound and everything.

Why don't we jump in to the text? I mean, just a few one-liners. Before we look at the bigger picture, I mean, a few one-liners to highlight from the top. Verse 15, the spirit and the body are the soul of man. Verse 73, I will hasten my work in its time. We might have heard that a couple of times in the last. Yeah, it seems like it's happening. Yeah. You know, verse 78, teach ye diligently. You know, verse 118, seek learning by study and also by faith. I mean, one liner after one, Elder Maxwell would be proud. I mean, these are just awesome one-liners that pack so much punch, let alone in the broader context of what it's teaching.

Yeah. Seek ye diligently out of the best books. Out of the best books. Yeah. A house of order, a house of prayer. And my kids' favorite, retire to thy bed early. Yeah, they love that one. That's their favorite. Cease to sleep longer than is needful.

Cease to sleep longer than is needful. That somehow is the one liner that has not gotten legs underneath it in the church over the years. That's so funny. I'm going to put that right in my kid's ear this week. And we can talk about those in context because what the Lord is trying to do there with these elders, with the school of the prophets. But, you know, there's kind of, as you're going through this section, again, like I mentioned, you're going to learn things about heaven and there's all this stuff on, you know, the light of Christ and he's the power of the sun. You're going to learn stuff about law and the celestial kingdom and every kingdom has laws.

So I would kind of say, if it's all right, let's kind of look at some of these heaven revelations. And then the second part is more practical, which is build a temple, organize a school of the prophets, start to learn to live a more celestial life. And those would kind of be the two groupings that I would... They're not in that sequential order, but they roughly address those two themes in here. So if you look in section 88, if you look at verse three, wherefore I now send upon you another comforter, even upon you, my friends, even that it may abide in your hearts, even the Holy Spirit of promise. Verse four, this comforter is the promise which I give unto you of eternal life.

I mean, so out of the gates, this revelation kicks off with a big idea on the other comforter. And Joseph Smith himself explains this. Let me read you this quote from Joseph. He says, The other comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest and perhaps understood by a few of this generation. After a person has faith in Christ, repents of his sins, is baptized for the remission of sins, receives the Holy Ghost, which is the first comforter. So the first comforter is the gift of the Holy Ghost. Then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering and thirsting after righteousness and living by every word of God.

And the Lord will soon say to him, Son, thou shalt be exalted. Now, what is this other comforter? It is no more nor less than the Lord Jesus Christ himself. And this is the sum and substance of the whole matter. And when any man obtains this last comforter, he will have the personage of Jesus Christ to attend to him or appear unto him from time to time.

And he will manifest the Father unto him, and they will take up their abode with him. And the visions of the heavens will be opened unto him. And the Lord will teach him face to face that he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the heavens will be opened unto him and the Lord will teach him face to face that he may have a perfect knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of God. Now, wow, that's big itself. So we'll come back to this because I actually think these verses three and four set the context for what the school of the prophets is trying to accomplish. They are trying to obtain this other comforter. That's why

it's called the school of prophets. It's the school of people who are trying to have prophetic power, prophetic visions, prophetic knowledge, prophetic experiences, and to achieve this other comforter. So I'll come back to that as we talk school of the prophets, but that's an important context for what they're trying to achieve as a whole this is a i don't know if it's a reference to but on the savior's last night uh with his apostles in john 14 he says um uh and i will pray the father and he shall give you another comforter that he may abide with you forever verse 18 18, I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you.

Yeah. So you can see that tie in from what the Savior said to his apostles. And even in this, we'll talk about this parable. The Lord is in essence saying, I'm going to manifest myself to my people in their order and in their time and in my own way. And it is all about him, though, manifesting himself to his people in their order and in their time and in my own way. And it is all about him, though, manifesting himself to his people personally. Verse six, you just got to love verse six. Just in context of our Savior's atoning empathy, how many of our prophets, seers, and revelators have testified that there is no pain, no sorrow,

no mortal experience that you and I go through that Jesus himself does not perfectly empathize with through his, you know, the awful arithmetic of the atonement as Elder Maxwell called it. But in verse six, speaking of Jesus, he that ascended up on high as also he descended below all things in that he comprehendeth all things. That's a great atoning empathy verse right there as well. I like that phrase, atoning empathy. Yeah, he's in and through in all things. Then, you know, to be totally honest, verse 7 through 13 about this light of Christ, I'm not sure I grasp it, but I just know it's awesome.

Yeah. Yeah. The light in the moon, you're what? Yeah. And the light in the sun and the star in the earth and how it moves and it's in everything and it quickens your understanding it proceeds from god in verse 12 it fills the immensity of space it's the life and the law and it's by everything that's governed in the power of him i mean i i'm not going to get into subatomic particles and you know wavelengths i would just summarize this as saying jesus is the light. Jesus is the law. Jesus is the power. I think it's just trying to say, this is Christ's world. These are his creations. He's in and through in all things. He's governing. He's in charge. He is the life,

the light, the law, the power, the way, the truth truth he's all of this that's that's my simplistic way of summarizing through verse like 13 yeah and that's a fun discussion to have with students or with your children is how is christ like light then talk about light and make the comparisons because you know we all no one likes to live in the dark. No one, right? No one wants to be outside in a, you know, you're out in a campground with your family or with a church group or something. And you're stumbling around in the dark. What do you need? You need light, right?

So there's so many parallels there And I love that too, that Jesus is so, that he shares that nickname with us, that I am the light of the world. And when he appears to the Nephites, I'm the light and the life of the world. And then he tells us, ye are the light of the world. And he shares that with us. And then towards the later in 3 Nephi, hold up your light that it may shine before men. I am the light that ye shall hold up. And how it kind of, I give unto you to be a light to this people, he says in 3 Nephi.

In Matthew, he's like, ye are the light of the world. But I think, wow, we get to be that. We get to share that nickname with him. Yeah, and we get to share priesthood power. If he's the power, we I think, wow, we get to be that, we get to share that nickname with him. Yeah. And we get to share priesthood power. If he's the power, we call that priesthood. We get priesthood authority. We get priesthood covenants. You know, there's power that we all share with God. I like that, what you guys have just said. That'd be a fun thing for parents with their kids to say, how is Jesus, you know, like light, like light? How is he like law? How is he like power? How is he like truth? How does he give us those things in our life? Another fun part is, is what eclipses

light and, uh, what gets in the way of the light. I remember Joseph Fielding McConkie in my master's program shaking his finger at us and saying, don't ever become a spiritual eclipse. If the moon gets in front of the sun, that's an eclipse. But what happens if you or anything or anyone gets in front of the sun? S-O-N. That's a spiritual eclipse. That was a day I'll never forget that we always want to be pointing to, to Christ, to the light. I've always loved that there's three days of darkness. Oh, I haven't loved that. They probably didn't love it. Three days of absolute darkness.

And then the voice comes, I am the light. I know it's like when God does an object lesson, it's like, Oh, he's the best object lesson. He's got a few more tools at his fingertips than you and I do. Right. I have a motion light outside and you know, I'll go out there in the dark and I'm like, Ooh, it's kind of scary. So I start waving around like, where's the light, you know, turn the light on out here. Cause it's cause it brings a sense of peace and understanding and, and oh, I can see what's around me. I'm, I'm not in danger. So there's just so many parallels that we could make there. We'll talk about, I'm going to hold on this for a second, but when he says he's also the law, you know, John, you were just mentioning in third Nephi,

I am the life. I am the light. In third Nephi, he also says, I am the life i am the light in third nephi he also says i am the law um and uh we'll talk about this a lot of section 8 deals with law and if we're not careful we're we're existing in a culture right now that is very centered on uh you know everything's relative there is you know whatever you want to do is fine you do do you, culture. No absolutes. We love to talk about Jesus as light, Jesus as truth, Jesus as power. We can never fail to also teach Jesus as law. He is a God of law, and there are laws that are given to govern kingdoms and ways we live. And we don't ever want to become legalistic and pharisaical but we also can never

dismiss christ as the law and the requirements which which he does expect of us to attain unto certain glories and blessings and powers in our life i'm starting to see that see it come up in these future verses yeah oh yeah yeah law law we'll we'll talk about those i do want to show in verse 14 to 15 he's going to shift now to the redemption of the earth but 15 we touched on already make sure you have that highlighted i mean that is a theological discourse in itself that our doctrine are is that we believe that the soul isn't just the spirit, that the soul also is your body, your temporal body. And thus, there are a lot of things that deal in this church with temporal aspects of our bodies, whether that has to do with word of wisdom or the law of chastity or other things of how we treat the body. You know, as Elder Holland one time said, you cannot harm the body without harming the soul.

Based off this doctrine in section 88, verse 15. You know, that's kind of and there is no, you know, I mentioned beforehand, if I can do a little plug here, I run a podcast for BYU Religion called the Why Religion Podcast, Letter Why Religion, where BYU professors talk about their research publications. There's a great one from Jordan Watkins called The Eternal in the Temporal. And he just talks about how you cannot separate temporal things from spiritual things. You can't separate it, that the spirit and the body is the soul. They are one together. And so, again, we have temporal things that direct us in this church. But just one application I thought of as

I was preparing for this podcast was just what a blessing your body is. And if we could really learn to embrace that doctrine, love your body as God created it, as he gave it in all of its varied size, shapes, capacities, colors, inclinations, ways, um, your, your body is a gift from God as a whole. That's, that's awesome. You mentioned elder Holland. It's a talk called personal purity. And I remember this because it was the late nineties and I was a teenager. Uh, and he said, um, this is, this is the quote. Uh, he says the body is an essential part of the soul this distinctive and very important latter-day saint doctrine underscores why sexual sin is so serious we declare that one who uses the god-given body of another without divine sanction that's marriage abuses the very soul of that individual

abuses the central purposes and processes of life the very key to life as president boyd k packer once called it and then he makes this statement in exploiting the body of another which means exploiting his or her soul one desecrates the atonement of Christ, which saved that soul and which makes possible the gift of eternal life. And I still remember sitting and hearing him say the next sentence. And when one mocks the son of righteousness, one steps into a realm of heat, hotter and holier than the noonday sun. You cannot do so and not be burned.

Oh, Eller Hall and bringing it. Yeah, I remember that talk. You and I are the same age, Hank, and I was also a teenager, and I remember that talk burned and seared into my soul. I think I actually called my bishop when that talk ended. I mean, it's just, yeah, I mean, I still remember him grabbing the pulpit, but it comes from that doctrine in section 88, verse 15. He's referencing section 88, verse 15. It's a powerful one-line verse alone, just

wedged in this huge section as a whole. Yeah. I'd like to mention that the Book of Mormon appears not to be as careful about soul and spirit and differentiating them. And this is very clarifying, that verse, because in fact, it's footnoted. Footnote 15c has Alma 40, 23 there, where it says, the soul and the body shall be reunited. And I remember Dr. Robert Millett just saying, sometimes the Book of Mormon uses soul and spirit interchangeably. And this verse helps to say, okay, just know that sometimes the Book of Mormon uses soul and spirit interchangeably, but the definition of the soul is body and spirit together. Yeah. And so it's a clarifying verse for me.

And I'm glad you said that, Tony. It's a theologically important verse. It really is. Well, I just love this idea that, because it fits very well with our doctrine of why the resurrection is so important. Yeah. Right? The spirit and the body unite again.

Yeah. And that goes to verse 27. We need to talk about the difference between a spirit body and a spiritual body. Yeah. And it's also going to, it's also going to manifest itself later in this revelation with the school of prophets. When he says,

you know, wash your bodies, be clean. Um, you know, Hank's favorite verse go to bed early get up early don't sleep longer than is needful um you know these all come back to hey you know there's a connection between the temporal and the spiritual and and you've got to take care of the temporal well. That's interesting. Yeah. I wonder what he would say today. Don't live off diet Coke. We're going to get into this, Tony, but... Hank, I've got to correct that, what you just said, because remember...

Because the Lord has ordained. The soda that should not be named was cleared in general conference, and then BYU shortly thereafter allowed us to buy Coke on campus. Not'm not saying closer to the restoration of all things not a step further away i said don't live off i didn't um i but you're right in that if you're fit it's really hard to feel the spirit for me personally if my body doesn't feel well. It's good to say in the best way we can, let's try to treat the temporal well because the temporal does affect the spiritual. Then these verses, you know, in 18, at the very end of 17, 18, he's like, hey, this earth is going to become the celestial kingdom. The meek will inherit it. That's our doctrine also. You know, when we inherit the celestial kingdom, The meek will inherit it. That's our doctrine also.

You know, when we inherit the celestial kingdom, we're actually going nowhere. We're simply trying to have this prepare and make this world become ready for our king and have God's will be done on this earth as it is in heaven. And this earth will become the celestial kingdom and bodies that in verse 20 bodies who are of a social kingdom may possess it forever and ever so this is really important here where all i would classify like verse 18 all the way through 40 has to do with kingdoms and inheriting kingdoms and celestial terrestrial telestial law you know judgment we get caught up into all these things and the way i would summarize these is uh we will in essence judge ourselves we will these verses seem to be teaching that wonderful doctrine that you know that br Brad Wilcox,

frankly, taught in his classic talk, His Grace is Sufficient, his BYU speech, where sometimes we have this view of God, like, stopping us or making these judgments upon us. And us begging God, as Brad says, please let me enter. And it's going to be the other way around. It would be God saying, please accept my son, obey the ordinances, live the law, so that you can enjoy these blessings. And that's really, I mean, look at these in verse 22. He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory. Same in 23 for terrestrial, same for telestial.

There are certain laws and conditions which are expected to receive this glory, this power, this capacity, these blessings. And then if you look, even jump over to verse 32, Even they who remain shall also be quickened. Nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place. And look at this line to enjoy that which they are willing to receive because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might've received. In other words, the Lord's like, you will go to the kingdom of the law and the conditions where you are using your agency to choose to live and accept and abide by. And the only reason why you're not going to get other kingdoms and why I might not is because I am choosing to not enjoy that which this is what I'm willing to receive.

So in verse 33, verse 33 is not a Christmas verse. It's a judgment verse where the Lord talks about, I'm not going to give somebody something they don't want. It reminds me of another kind of verse that sounds to me like it's saying the same thing. Mormon 9 verse 4, Behold, I say unto you that you would be more miserable to dwell with the holy and just God under a consciousness of your filthiness before him than you would to dwell with the damned souls in hell.

So it's the idea that you'd be more miserable saying, I'm going to find a place where you're not miserable. And it's a place that you're going to go where you feel most comfortable. And when I teach that in Book of Mormon class, I reference 88-32. This is what you're willing to receive because you're not willing to enjoy that which you might have received. They sound like parallel verses. Yeah. And look at verse 40. Again, verse 40 is a great judgment scripture. Intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence. Wisdom receiveth

wisdom. Truth embraceth truth. Virtue loveth virtue. Light cleaveth to light. In other words, if you're a person of intelligence, wisdom, truth, virtue, light, you're going to go to a kingdom of intelligence, virtue, wisdom, light, truth, because those things love each other. And it's just a beautiful doctrine that the Lord will honor our agency where we will choose to live in the laws and the conditions and the kingdoms which we are willing to receive. This seems, Tony, like a little bit of an extension of section 76. Yeah. In what way, Hank? It feels like a little bit of an addendum section 76. Yeah. In what way, Hank? It feels like a little bit of an addendum. You know, they received section 76. It was Dr. Harper

who said, you know, you and I, we love it. But the saints back then were kind of like, whoa, wait, hold on. And so maybe there was a little bit of a lag time where the Lord's like, well, we'll talk more about that a little bit later. I'm going to let you digest 76 for a little while before I tell you even more about the heavens. Yeah. Yep. And this, you'll see this again. I keep teeing this up to talk about the school of the prophets.

But again, that seems to be what the Lord is going to do with the school of the prophets and what he's going to teach them about the temple is that the temple teaches us laws that there are certain laws and conditions by which celestial beings abide by and live by so that we can receive these blessings because they want to because they want to because they choose to. Yeah. I mean, look at verse 32. You go to your own place to enjoy that which they are willing to receive. Yeah. It's not about God saying, sorry, you're going there even though you don't want to go there. It's God saying, where do you want to go? Where do you want to be? What law are you willing to live?

And that's where you'll be most comfortable. And I'm positive there are people listening to this podcast who are worried about family members, who are worried about friends, loved ones who either have left or are not part of the church. I just, I believe in a God, the God that I worship, the God of the restoration, is a God like this that just says, if people are of light and truth and virtue and goodness, all mortal factors, all things that have blocked and gotten in the way and issues will be resolved by a God who completely understands and is fair and is merciful and compassionate. And if people love truth,

if they love goodness, if they love virtue, if they love light, they will go to those kingdoms of virtue, goodness, love, and light. I have no doubt about it. Yeah. And this is a God who is our father who loves his children, wants to give them all that he can if they're willing to receive it. Yeah. There's a verse back in that I don't want to miss yet because we're going to turn the page here. That, you know, in Christianity, we always talk about the second coming of the Lord, the second coming of the Lord. But in verse 19, he seems to almost up the second coming of the Lord with another visitor. For after it hath filled the measure of his creation, meaning the earth, it shall be shouldn't say totally different, but that seems to take the second coming to a whole new level. Yeah, the second coming and then another coming following that.

Yeah, and I may be wrong in this. And so forgive me if my doctrine's off here, but the way I've always understood it is the second coming will be where Christ comes to rule and reign as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and he'll usher in the millennium. But we're going to work through this millennial period to continue to help God's will be perfectly known and done and implemented on this earth. And it won't be till the end of the millennium that this earth becomes celestialized and truly becomes the kingdom of God, the celestial kingdom crowned with the presence of God the Father, because those who inherit the celestial kingdom will be in his presence.

And so I understand it as second coming as jesus worked through the millennium preparing it to crown it with the presence of of god the father what a what a for joseph smith for this what do we say 27 year old yep for him to expand even the second coming was it you i tony it was someone who said the audacity of this kid yeah the audacity of this 27 year old unbelievable yeah then you know if you guys want to talk 41 to 44 planets everything like that 45 some beautiful line the earth rolls upon her wings. That sounds like something you should include in a love letter. I mean, that's a beautiful line. The sun giveth light by day. And then he says, verse 47, all these are kingdoms. Any man who

has seen any or the least of these has seen God moving in his majesty and power. 48, I say unto you, he hath seen him. There seems to be almost a tie here to, you know, the Lord's likening these kingdoms. If you look at the end of verse 43, here he seems to be likening them to planets. Verse 42, they have times and seasons affixed. They have laws and revolutions. But a little tie into the first vision when in one of the accounts of the first vision in Joseph's history, his 1832 account, he seems to hint, as Richard Bushman said, that Joseph had a brush a little bit with not atheism necessarily, but maybe questioning the existence of God. In his 1832

account, Joseph said, when he looked at the moon, the stars, the earth, the creatures, the people, that the Spirit spoke to him that there is a great God and that only a fool would proclaim that there is no God. This seems to be the Lord saying a similar thing. Like, if you want to see God, just look around you. Look at the beautiful light, law, universe, planets, everything testifying to you. All things denote there is a God. You know, another Book of Mormon tie in there. Yeah.

Is it Alma with Coral Horn? It's there. denote there is a god you know another book of mormon tie in there yeah is it alma yeah it's there it's there alma 30 44 is his footnote 47 c where he says the planets which move in their regular motion i'll witness there's a supreme creator yep so just not just another beautiful thing he seems to shift though we're going to talk kingdoms for a sec. He's going to give a parable in 51. Behold, I will liken these kingdoms. Now, is he talking planets or is he talking, I'll show you where he might be talking dispensations here. He's going to liken these kingdoms, which are either planets, different worlds, or maybe they're different dispensations on this world. Unto a man in a field.

And he sent forth his servants into the field to dig in the field. He said unto the first, go ye and labor in the field. And the first hour I'll come unto you and ye shall behold the joy of my countenance. Remember back to the verses that teed off this revelation. I will manifest myself to you. You are going to come into my presence. Like you will see me. You will, there will be another comforter. You will know God.

You will know Jesus. So he says, you know, first hour labors, second, third, all the way in verse 55 and so forth to the 12th. Verse 56, and the Lord of the field went to the first, the first hour tarried with him that hour and was made glad. And he does that from the first all the way in 59 to the last 60, every man his own order until his hours finished. 61, therefore, unto this parable, I will liken all these kingdoms and the inhabitants thereof, every kingdom in its hour and in its time and in its season, even according to the decree which God hath made. So this parable seems to be saying that the Lord either, if we're talking about it in planets,

other worlds, that the Lord, that Jesus himself manifested himself to all his people, that they in their time enjoy his presence. Or if we're not going there, at minimum, every dispensation, the Lord manifests himself on this earth. And where I'm getting this dispensational one, jump over to verse 70. Tear ye, tear ye in this kingdom to this dispensation. That's where I'm getting a dispensational read of it. So we could maybe read it as in the parable, the Lord manifested himself to Adam and Eve. And he manifested himself to Lehi and Saria and Abraham and Sarah he's also manifesting himself to Joseph and Emma and this dispensation and this this round

of the elders you gotta love you guys have all heard the parable of the laborers in the new testament right and sometimes we liken that to people who are baptized. Like, oh, you know, some people who join the church early and then there's people who get baptized and join the church at the very end. Everybody, I like, that's an appropriate application. But using section 88 verse 70, the Lord just called us the last hour laborers. That's what he just called us. So, this is like a parable of dispensations. You and I are the 11th and 12th hour laborers. You and I are coming in after Adam and Eve and Abraham and Sarah and Lehi and Sariah and everybody else has done all this work for thousands and thousands of years then we get a swoop up here in the dispensation of the fullness of times in the 11th hour

and have all this tools and technology and establish the global church and kingdom and march into heaven equally with adam and eve being 11th hour laborers yeah uh Let's have a little dispensational humility for everybody who's come before us that we are coming in as the last hour laborers. Oh, I can't tell you how fun it is in my New Testament class to flip that on my students. Because I say, you know, what's it like when someone didn't have to go to seminary for four years and they didn't have to serve it? And they're like, yeah, see, that's not fair. And I'm like, wait, wait, what if you're on the other side of the equation? What if you're the last hour workers? Are you sure it's not fair? And I'm like, Adam and Eve have been,

they've been doing a lot of work for a long time. Abraham, Noah, they've been doing a lot of work for a long time. We seem to be the ones that are coming to the party late. And then all of a sudden it's, no, it's fair. Yeah, I'll take equal pay to Abraham. Sure, please. Yeah. Let's restate that then. So that parable can have a couple of applications, right? When we come into the church, for those in our lifetimes, and dispensationally, that's really cool. What did you say?

Dispensational humility? A little dispensational humility. We are standing on the shoulders of amazing women and men who have come, set us, teed us up for success for thousands and thousands of years. So, those are just an example of just some of these awesome, just as I said, heaven, what are we learning about heaven? But then there's going to be a major shift in this revelation about how do you and I therefore prepare ourselves for heaven? And this is where there's a shift to some practical stuff that's going to start centering in on a temple and a school of the prophets. And to be frank, Hank, that's why when you said which one i

said 88 because we've got to grasp what the lord is trying to do with the temple and with the school of the prophets and the endowment um here to grasp what's happening today with the temple and the modern school of the prophets and the modern endowment, it's so, so powerful as a whole. I want to mention one thing that I've used in verse 40, and you can correct me if I'm taking this out of context. But when some of my students have come to me and said, you know, who am I? I want to find someone great to marry, right? They're all looking for Mr. Mrs. Perfect, uh, to marry. And I've always said this idea of if you want to marry an intelligent,

wise, someone who loves truth, someone who loves virtue, someone who loves light, then you have to be all those things because intelligence cleaves to intelligence. It's attracted to it. Wisdom is attracted to wisdom. Truth embraces the truth. So for anyone listening, you know, who says, oh, I want to marry this type of person. Wonderful. Of course you do.

I think that's great. Probably the best way is to be that person. Yeah. I mean, that's Elder Bednar. Isn't Elder Bednar who said, become the kind of person you want to date and marry? Stop trying to find the right one and focus on trying to become the right one type of thing. Yeah. Verse 40 is the greatest, I like to call it the greatest judgment and dating scripture of all time. Yeah. Wait, wait, what verse? Verse 40, the light cleave with the light.

My favorite dating scripture is Abinadi, touch me not or God shall smite thee. That's my favorite dating scripture for my daughter anyway. Please join us for part two of this podcast.