followHIM - Doctrine & Covenants 94-97 Part 2 : Dr. Susan Easton Black

Episode Date: August 29, 2021

Were the early Saints required to observe their covenants by sacrifice? Dr. Black returns to explain how the Saints are preparing for temple covenants and how the Lord tempers their expectations of Zion. We also discuss how the Lord is anxious to bless the Saints with temple blessings, power, and protection.Shownotes: https://followhim.co/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannel"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. I think this might be John Johnson's favorite section of the Doctrine and Covenants, though. I would think so. That have that promise given to you in verses six and seven there. Compliment from the Lord, you know. Yeah, that he can have eternal life. It's almost like he's being given a patriarchal blessing where he says he's a descendant from Joseph. I'm like, wow, you know, he's getting these amazing promises.

And it's interesting, the very day that that section was received, June 4th, 1833, Father Johnson becomes a high priest. So it's like, you know, the very day and he's becomes a high priest. He's given these amazing promises. But he's also told, I promises are his and as much as you keep my commandments. And then you go, Oh, no, I wanted them without them. I like the promises. I got a kicker in the end. So I have a question. Just knowing that the two of you have been there probably many times, the John Johnson Farm in Hiram. Does that go out of his hands at this point? And then the church purchased it later on or Willard Bean did at some point? Is that how that?

It's a later purchase that eventually falls into the hands of the church. But Father Johnson has sold out. He doesn't like living across the street from Simon's Rider, right? You know, and you got the neighbor involved in tarring and feathering. He's ready to get out. So he moves about 30 miles. And his house in Kirtland is actually pretty close to the Kirtland Temple. So you'd say, well, he got one of the choice lands of inheritance for himself. Right. Yeah. And but you'd say for Father Johnson, after becoming a high priest, he's placed as a member of the Kirtland High Council. So in this stake, you've got basically one bishop, a Kirtland High Council. So in this stake, you've got basically one bishop, a Kirtland High Council, and you'd say for him, he has financial problems. And I, you know, it's hard to say, but it seems

like, although we've talked about buildings, we're talking about finances. And each one of these sections, there's a finance element. And for him, Father Johnson leaves the church in 1837, and he dies in 1843, and is buried outside of the Kirtland Temple in that small cemetery there. So Hank, next time you're there, which sounds soon, you know, you'll, you'll go out and see his grave. So, um, I think one of the sad chapters in the question is, you know, remember the, you know, you get all these promises and it's always the, if, you know, in as much as you keep my commandments. Uh, one of his sons is going to end up coming to utah uh is that luke yeah luke luke comes to utah yeah so uh you know you hope that the family's still with us right that's the hope that okay i'm counting i i think yeah father johnson we're forever grateful to him yeah i love it I love it. I love it. Uh, and, um, the John Johnson farm is a memorial to him and his wife.

And what happened there? I mean, if you, not everyone's going to get the chance to go out there, but if you do get that chance, it is a, uh, it's a memorial. It really is to all the saints of that day, but especially John and Elsa Johnson. I think we need one for Miss Jacques, right? We need a Vienna Jacques. Yeah, Vienna Jacques. Also, just that John Johnson farm. I mean, section 76 in the upstairs room there. It's so glad we have that, that you can walk in there and imagine that.

Incredible. there and, and imagine that, uh, incredible section 76 was such a, uh, what would, uh, Covey call it a paradigm shifting, amazing revelation about a game change, salvation and the afterlife. And that we still have that, uh, that same sacred space is wonderful. Um, Susan, what do I do with these wonderful, wonderful men and women who don't end up staying through the whole thing, right? We love to tell those stories of the Joseph Knight, the Parley P. Pratt, the Brigham Young, and their spouses who make it all the way, all the way. They go the distance. But then you have people like the Whitmers and John Johnson. And we can't discount them and their sacrifice, but we also need to say, endure to the end, right?

Right. I think all of us eventually can look in our families, extended families, and see those that have made sacred covenants. And have actually made some wonderful contributions to the church. You know, these missionaries that have sacrificed their time to knock on doors and bring people into the church. And then you look, where are they? And, you know, I think we leave the judgment in the hands of the Lord. I'm hoping I'm worthy to be able to shake the hand of Father

John Johnson, you know, for his greatness of, I mean, his money was used to purchase that Peter French farm, at least part of it, and where the temple stands. I mean, for that alone, he did something great. And I guess none of us, none of us know what's going to happen in our lives. And, you know, I think we've all gotten hits along the way. You can't try to make a difference without somebody needling you. And, you know, and sometimes it gets too much. And, but hang in there. You don't want to lose the spirit of the Lord. You want the spirit with you always.

And let the Lord judge. I love that. I love that. It's sad to me that sometimes the people like the Whitmers or John Johnson or even Martin Harris get a bad name because they had a time where they fell away when saying this. Listen, this is not an easy time to be a member of the church, especially 1837, like you mentioned in 1838. Yeah, very difficult times. And speaking of difficult times, that takes us to section 97, right?

Can you believe we've made it? Yeah. Okay. Section 97 comes upon some really difficult times that are happening, not in Kirtland, but back in Jackson County. We kind of alluded to this earlier. The heading says severe persecution. Can you tell us what's been happening there? Yeah. So we know 1831, the saints are gathering now to the center place, like you talked about, Hank, the center place there in Jackson County.

And by the time we pick them up in the summer now of 1833, you're looking about 1,200 Latter-day Saints have moved out to Jackson. They face lots of problems with their neighbors who are, well, independents settled by people from Kentucky. There's slave owners, even Alexander Donovan, slave owner, right? And so you'd say there's been conflict back and forth, but now for the extreme. On July 20th of 1833, notice the revelation is August 2nd, 1833. But on July 20th, 1833 in independence, flames of hatred have been ignited and you get four or 500 men devised to a plan, just literally a plan. You know, can you say a conspiracy? I don't know. But they've got a plan. You know, Joseph said, I got a plan for the temple.

Well, here's these four or 500, way too many for a committee, right? But four or 500, they plan that they're going to rid Jackson County of all Latter-day Saints. And they say, and I quote, no Mormon shall in the future move to or settle in this county. Now I've met a lot of latter-day saints in Jackson County and they're wonderful, but they say no Mormon shall in the future move or settle in this county that those now here who shall give a definite pledge of their intention within a reasonable time to remove out of the county shall allowed to be remain unmolested in other words we're going to get the rest of you guys

so violence breaks out uh remember that evening a morning star ww phelps his presses destroyed Presses destroyed. The Gilbert and Whitney store, the things in the store are now thrown out. Houses are pillaged. Church leaders, Charles Allen, Edward Partridge, they're tarred and feathered in the town square. I don't know if they remember tar and feathering, but it's not road tar, it's pine tar. And, you know, and a lot of people in America are tarred, you know, Southern abolitionists, wife beaters, you know, and on July 20th, 1833, Edward Partridge, a bishop and a faithful member of the church, Charles Allen, a lot of people are tarred, but when you feathered, it means you mock the man for what he stands for. You know, he's like a chicken. You, you mock, mock what he's, what he stands for. And then three days following this incredible abuse, uh, these, uh, three days following here

comes some 500 men again, and they're armed with rifles, pistols, whips, clubs, and they're shouting, we will rid Jackson County of the Mormons peacefully if we can, but forcefully if we must. And so at this point, you get leaders like Edward Partridge signing, saying, hey, we'll be the ransom for the church you know we'll we'll step up and we'll agree to leave jackson county and so they sign this and the saints are very very frightened and joseph receives a revelation and basically it was those that signed leaders and said they would leave that basically they need to leave. But in this revelation,

Joseph is saying to the saints, don't sell your, don't sell your lands. Zion is still Zion. Hold on. You can do this. And I, I, I can't tell you how important it is for people to realize that Edward Partridge can't contact Joseph Smith. He can't text him and say, what do I do? Right. If you want to get a pony express, no telegraphs. Yeah. Yeah. It's going to be two months before he can get any direction at all. So I think he signs to leave to end the violence. Right. To say, OK, we'll sign your we'll sign your contract because we're scared and it's just going to lead to further people getting hurt. But this revelation, when it was received on August 2nd and that tarring and feathering was July 20th, did Joseph Smith have any idea what had happened when he received this revelation? Not that we know of.

Yeah. In other words, all that's going on. And in Joseph's case, when you look, 1833, July, people are building the temple. He's a part of the building, right? But he receives this revelation and Zion's not going to be removed. Zion's a pure in heart and be pure in heart and go ahead and build your houses. In other words, let's make this happen. Right. There's no way let's make this happen. Right.

There's no way Joseph knows what's happening. The news travels too slow back then. The news travels too slow and the Lord doesn't want them to sell their lands of inheritance in Zion. In other words, still build it, be pure in heart. Right. The Lord knowing they're going to be driven out, don't sell because then you don't have the cause of that's ours. Right. The Lord, knowing they're going to be driven out, don't sell because then you don't have the cause of that's ours. Right. And we deserve it. And so there's a lot to come where we're going to try to get them, get our land back.

Right. Because correct me if I'm wrong, but four and five hundred people get together to drive a certain people out of their county, that doesn't seem legal. Even in 1833, Missouri, it doesn't seem like a legal thing. So Joseph Smith is going to spend a lot of his time after this trying to follow through on the legal legality of this, right? Right, correct. And as you eventually see the saints eventually being forced out by November of 33. They're going to start that whole court action. And then you get for the first time, the saints are going to hire Alexander Donovan. Yeah. As their lawyer. What's it like to, to, for those saints who have to leave the county by winter, you spend

your whole spring and summer preparing for winter. And now you got to go. I think, is it, who is it that writes to Joseph saying, we are destitute here on the other side of the river? W. W. Phelps. And you realize who could be more poetic and say it how it is. Van Phillips, the man of rights, praise to the man, the spirit of God. Yeah. Yeah. So I can't imagine. And they've just got to get on the other side of the river.

That's it, right? On the other side, is it a creek or is it the Missouri River? It's the Missouri River. They've got to get on the other side of the Missouri River. You've got Independence and Jackson County and the other side of the river, Clay County, and they're moving on to a town called Liberty. OK, yeah. And Clay County is I've heard it described as a kind of like Utah County and Salt Lake County. There's political differences, right? Almost at the county line.

Right. Is Clay County safer for them? To some extent, at least at first, first couple of years. But they are literally the cousins of the Kentuckians that settled in Jackson County. So they don't have the history, the heritage. They don't have the independence, which is a trailhead. As they're heading down the Santa Fe Trail, they don't have the so many transients and perhaps unwanted in the community as as Clay County. OK, so you've got these Mormons, as they would call them, crossing the river into your county, twelve hundred of them. That would be a that would be quite a sight. That would be

I mean, that's that's probably's probably half the population of independence is now crossing the river in the dead of winter. Yeah, just about. Right? Setting up tents, I would imagine, I guess, on the other side. Well, I don't know if they even had tents, at least throwing some kind of blanket on a tree or quilt. Oh. And so this is the August before that happens. Should we jump into the verses then and take a look at what the Lord has to say before

Joseph even knows about what's happened? Fascinating that the Lord's talking about this and Joseph's probably thinking in his head, has something happened? You can see that the Lord is saying, this is about Zion. This revelation is not about Kirtland. It's about Zion because he says right in the first verse, I will show you my will concerning your brethren in the land of Zion, many of whom are truly humble and are seeking diligently to learn wisdom and to find truth. So it's almost as if the Lord is saying to Joseph, yeah, something's going on there, uh, that you're not aware of. I love that. He says,

I say unto you, my friends, um, the part that you just read, many of whom are truly humble tells us that many are and many and some are not. Yeah. And, uh, but I'm going to show mercy to the meek in verse 2. And then he speaks about Parley P. Pratt in verse 3. That many things were good going on in independence. And you've got to remember, a trailhead, pretty exciting place to live. And you'd say they've got, well, they've got homes. They've got stores. They've got their printing press.

And for Parley P. Pratt, he started a school like the School of the Prophets. And I think in those verses, the Lord is very pleased that Parley would follow through on that. And eventually you're going to get our first school for children is actually coming in independence. In other words, there's a real push for education there. I think one of our, I can't remember who it was, John, but one of our earlier guests called Parley Pratt, the Paul of the Latter-day Saints, right? When we talked about people who move and get things done, I would say Parley P. Pratt's in that category.

I think he might have been taller than Paul. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But he gets things done, Parley. So things have been going well, you would say, despite the difficulty with your neighbors? Yeah. Yeah. Cultural, social differences. And I mean, can you imagine a people moving into your neighborhood saying,

the Lord has given me this land? This is Zion. I mean, even though all of us live among Latter-day Saints, we probably look at the neighbor askance, right? When you got and they wanted to miter up the corners of your land. In other words, we're going to have certain parcels, whereas they were squatters rights. You know, it's independence was the farthest town in the whole U.S. at that time. And Jackson County. Yeah, right. that time. And Jackson County, named for Andrew Jackson, our people's president, where you could stop saying, ladies and gentlemen, we're all trying to be aristocratic. I mean, he was a commoner that rose up. And so with that, you've got different thoughts going on as they come into

that area. Yeah. So it makes sense they're having this contention, but they're still, you know, it's been two years that they've been there. And so they've started a school. You've said they've got their printing press, which is pretty incredible to have a real printing press way out in the far West. Now the Lord starts to say in verse seven, the ax is laid at the root of the

tree and talking about good fruit. I think what you mentioned earlier, Susan, about the saints, some of them saying, Hey, this is our land. The Lord's going to give it to us. I think the Lord advised against that. Didn't he early on when they were going there? He said, let's not do this with, let's not, I can't remember the exact verbiage. It's kind of like at the very same time, Kirtland is always the gathering place. But those that are called and elect to go up to Zion, meaning up to independence, are on the way. So if you're you're called to go to Zion and you elect to go, perhaps there's arrogance in the experience once you have arrived. That's interesting, because I wonder why would these Latter-day Saints, you know, you would think telling someone that God's going to give you their property is not, it's exactly not in how to win friends and influence people. Right.

But there's probably maybe some excitement there. And like you said, maybe some arrogance that I've been called to, to go to Zion. Some went that before they were called, right. Some just showed up. Right. They just showed up. We're in Puerto Rico. It just shows up. Yeah. And I think you, Edward Partridge is going, I can't handle, I can't handle too many at once. So I can see that. I mean, where do we place? I've always struggled with this. Where's the where do we place the I wouldn't say the blame for what happens in Jackson County in 1833. But you'd say part of it falls on the saints. But obviously, part of it falls on these missourians for i mean this violence is unwarranted right in other words um latter-day saints those coming to ohio have a northern heritage and those living in missouri have a southern heritage southern culture and it's like mixing water and oil you can can try it. You know, you shake, shake, shake, but eventually it still separates. Some historians say almost in history, no two

people were not fit to live in the same neighborhood than those in the Missourians of 1831, 32 and 33 and the Latter-day Saints. Just it just kind of lined up as a perfect storm. Let's continue on in the section here and talk about the Lord saying and willing to observe their covenants by sacrifice. That's an interesting phrase, observing your covenants by sacrifice. Uh, he's, he's still talking about those in Zion, right? Right. Uh, but sometimes, uh, you know, you can make your covenants, but then y'all always seem to get some kind of Abrahamic test.

Uh, you know, is this the one that will blow you out of the water? And, uh, the question is, you know, who's on the Lord's side? Who? Remember, we used to sing the song, you know, now is the time to show. And one of the ways to show us by your willingness to sacrifice. Yeah. And to endure the Abrahamic test, right? To endure it.

And for some in independence, they succeeded. They endured. They crossed the rivers for, you know, the Missouri for others. Obviously, they won't cross and eventually deny the favor. You know, what's interesting to me personally is way back. If you go way back to August of 31, section 58, I think the Lord was checking their expectations. I, from what I've read, there's an expectation. We're going to move to Jackson County.

We'll probably plant a couple of trees and Jesus will come, right? That's how great it's going to be. And in section 58, the very first section received in Jackson County or the second, the Lord says, after much tribulation come the blessings, right? He says, you cannot behold with your natural eyes for the present time, the design of your God concerning the thing, the glory, which comes following much tribulation. So you get the feeling in section 58 and Susan, you can correct me if I'm wrong, that the Lord saw this coming, that we're not going to be here that long.

You know, if we were to kind of wrap up, you know, wrap what we've done, it may all come down to the fact that in independence. I mean, Joseph's there before anybody's called to be there. Right. And designates where the temple's to be. And it's the same kind of thing. Let's go. And they have two years and they don't move it and uh you know if you wanted to wrap what we did from 94 on about building and building committees are we are you really going to build this and i've always wondered what would have happened if the saints who were interested in getting their, you know, the mills and the stores and they put in bridges and what, what if they had actually stopped and said, you know, I don't

mind living in the log cabin even for next year, but I do care that I haven't built that temple. They're an independent. That's a fascinating perspective. I mean, would we have a different history? I think so. Yeah. There's a lot of conditional things in section 97. A lot of if thens, a lot is in as much. If you'll do this, then this, if you'll do this, then this.

And I, and I guess some of them, they, I don't point fingers cause I'd probably be one of them, but some of them they failed to do, or they failed to do it speedily or something with the right intent, maybe. And that's that's verse eight. They have to observe their covenants by sacrifice. That's that's what you're talking about, Susan. I can observe my covenants and build my own little kingdom. Right. The kingdom of Smith, my own little acre with milk and honey.

But we don't. Yeah. But this, this is observe your covenants by sacrifice. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven type of thing is, and that's WW Phelps, right? So I've always told my students, you know, if you get called back to independence, I don't care where you live, but you just make sure you're building on that temple. Don't worry about your own house. Yeah, it will all fall together. But when the Lord speaks, you know, the time to act is now. Observe their covenants by sacrifice. That's one of those verses that makes me a little bit nervous.

Because if you'd asked me if I'm observing my covenants, I'd tell you yes. Are you observing your covenants with sacrifice? I remember the Lewis thought, he said something to the effect of, you know, your tithing, your offerings, what you give ought to hurt a little bit. If it doesn't hurt, it's not enough. It's not a sacrifice. It's not a sacrifice. So I don't know. I know you both are, but I don't know if I'm observing my covenants by sacrifice. Cause I probably get to that point where it would hurt a little bit and go, yeah, I get my covenants. Right. But, but like you said, Susan, once it starts to, and I hate to say this, but once it starts to hit the wallet, Susan, once it starts to, and I hate to say this, but once

it starts to hit the wallet, that's when it starts to hurt. And maybe you could say as teachers of religion, you know, that how many firesides can you give until you go, wow, I, I gotta be with my family now, you know, or whatever it might be. I mean, I think we all, you know, and what we've chosen to do in life, we have lots of opportunities to sacrifice and in that sacrifice, bless the lives of others. But then the question comes, what about those in our own home as we do that? There's a lot of power in that verse, observing your covenants by sacrifice. I just feel an overall tone in all of these is just look how anxious the Lord is to give them

temple blessings. He's anxious. Isn't that the outcome of all of this? Would you guys please build a temple so I can bless you and endow you with power? And I keep telling you this and, and boy, what you said earlier, Susan, I was like, yeah, that's true. Kirtland is dedicated in 1836. It's still so far down the road and the Lord is so anxious to get going on these things so we can bless them. And I suppose now that the temples are opening back up, anxious to, we should all be anxious to get back there so the Lord can, can bless them. And I suppose now that the temples are opening back up anxious to, we should all be anxious to get back there so the Lord can, can bless us. That's the hard part of reading this is, you know, that the Lord is saying to them, yes,

yeah, they're good people. Many of whom are humble and seeking diligently and, but not all. Yeah. They're amazing people. And yet here we are saying, well, they were dragging their feet. They should have built the temple. And they're saying, yeah, we didn't have Wi-Fi like you, did we? Right. Here's Elder Holland in General Conference, April of 2014. He says, it is a characteristic of our age that if people want any gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much. Comfortable gods, smooth gods who not only don't rock the boat, but don't even row it. Gods who pat us on the head, make us giggle, then tell us to run along and pick marigolds. Talk about man creating God in his own image. This is a God who demands much. The God of section. And the other ones we've read is one who demands a lot. But like you said,

John, it's he, I want to bless you. I want to bless you. I'm anxious to bless you with the temple blessings. Yeah. So sacrifice in sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven. One of you just already quoted that.

Didn't you? Uh, anything else about this, the sacrifices they were supposed to be making down there, Susan? And many of them were, you would say the Edward Partridges, the Phelps, the Gilberts, they were. I think they were. I think people are taking family members that are passing through, coming to stay into their homes. I mean, accounts of helping neighbors. I mean, they're doing that. It's just, you know, it's the big sacrifice.

It's the temple that he wanted them to get started. And that temple, I mean, after the dedication of August of 31, I don't think it, does anything happen after that? I don't think it does, right? No, not that we know of in other words you don't see like you'd say on the kirtland temple joseph clearing off the foliage taking down the fence hyrum uh reynolds kahoon digging trench you don't you don't see any of that and yet just like the kirtland temple you, the city stake you've got in this case, Bishop Edward Partridge is assigning out these parcels, lands of inheritance,

with the temple being the center point. But can you imagine you have this, quote, Zion community, but then you have nothing in the middle. You're like, wait a minute, where is the beacon? Where is the place where, you know, for revelation, where is the endowment? It's just a space. I mean, it reminds me of the Nauvoo Temple before it was rebuilt. You know, people would come to Nauvoo and they look at the little houses and they'd see this depression in the ground and curiosity, but nothing's there. And then, you know, the joy when it's announced. So you need, you need the temple, you need the palace to the Lord.

You need the house of the Lord to get the blessings that he, he has for all of us. That's wonderful. Cause that, that seems to be the next, I would say eight or nine verses. He talks about what they could have if they would get started. Right. Verse 12, he says, this is the tithing and the sacrifice which I, the Lord, require at their hands, that there may be a house built unto me for the salvation of Zion, a place of thanksgiving for all saints,

a place of instruction, a place where they can be perfected in their understanding of their ministry, in theory, in principle, in doctrine. I mean, this is a grand verse to talk about what we can get from temple worship. He says, my presence will be there, all the pure in heart. Yeah, verse 16. Wow. You go to the temple. Yeah, you go to the temple with a in heart. Yeah. Verse 16. Wow. You go to the temple. Yeah. You go to the temple with a pure heart.

All that he says, yea, and my presence shall be there for I will come into it. And all the pure in heart that shall come into it shall see God. Is that not worth the sacrifice? Yeah. There's that anxiousness to bless the people if they'll do what he's asking. And yet we know the future of Jackson County. We know we're going to be driven out. We're not going to get our lands back. And eventually we're going to head get to talk about this later with, you know, with, uh, the saints crossing to the, to the West and leaving everything behind. But, um, uh, does is Zion, are we looking forward to that day? Do you still think, well, Zion won't be removed. You know, we still live within stakes of Zion, but, uh, Jackson County is still the place.

Still the place. And if you talk to the saints there, they always tell you, you know, this is Zion. They do. And their fast and testimony meetings, they're talking Zion. You know, I don't know if I've ever heard that in my own word out here in Utah, you know, but they definitely talk Zion. Yeah, we would rather go to verse 21 where Zion is a state of, of mind in a state of spirit. Um, yeah. John mentioned a lot of ifs. I noticed the if in verse

17, if in verse 18, the if in verse 25, verse 26, if. If in verse 26, if she observed. In 27, if she sinned no more, right? 27, yeah. There are blessings waiting if you will do these things. Oftentimes I want the blessings before the if, right? Yeah. They're conditional, conditional blessings. He does seem to step back from the idea of Zion just being a place in verse 21. Susan, he says, therefore, verily, thus saith the Lord that let Zion rejoice for this is Zion, the pure in heart.

So maybe he's prepping them. I don't know. This would be me in my mind. He's prepping them for the loss of Zion, saying, well, yes, we're going to lose the land of Zion for a while, but you can still have Zion. You can take it with you. I was a temple worker in the Provo Temple for a decade plus, and I was always put in the locker room.

You know, when you're noisy, where would you put her? And I was a temple worker at night, so I didn't see a lot of older people coming in. And there was a woman who had a wheelchair. And now she's talking to me, and she wants to know, where is their locker big enough for her to be able to dress? And I said, hey, I just don't know. And let me get a supervisor anyway. So while somebody's running to get a supervisor I'm talking to her and and she goes well how come you don't know are you new here and I go no no

I'm not new I go you know I'm a fixture I've been here a long long time and I go I'm just one of the flunkies here and she looked at my badge and she goes, Sister Black, nobody's a flunky that gets in here. So what I'm trying to say is that, you know, you build those temples and you get to go inside, then, you know, are you pure in heart? Are you Zion? I don't know. I guess we're all trying to be. But and we can keep that that sense of wanting to serve the Lord and sacrifice with us. And it's anyway, I love the temple. And so glad, like John said, we're we're about to be back inside more permanent. Isn't that great?

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I wish they just had cubicles. If you could bring your books and just, just to be in there as a place to read and to study, it would, it would be nice. Make it, make it more like a library, a library wing in there. Just let me come in here and we could call it the flunky wing no just kidding you could come in here and uh write a book right uh like james talmadge so how do we uh susan how do we deal with um the loss of zion both how did they deal with it uh and because they're they're they're gonna leave now and how do we how do we deal with that as well? How do you deal with that as a historian?

All these all these expectations, all this hope, all these dreams are wrapped up in this county and they have to go. They have to leave. How do you deal with that? All right. Well, I think they left. But how do you describe they never left? It took them a while to really establish homes and even businesses in Liberty and Clay County because they were still hoping because the Lord said a little season and then you'll get Zion's camp, you know, with the big hope they're coming to put us back on the property and you'll cover that. And you'd say, for me personally, you know, I'm grateful to live in a stake, you know,

a stake of Zion here in Provo, actually. And what a blessing it is. And I've always thought, you know, you get these stakes of Zion, and when I'm driving into Provo, I can look, and there's the magnificent Provo Temple. And I always think, oh, it's my safety net. You know, it's what holds the stakes in the ground. You know, it's the rock. It's where I have the surety, the security, and where I can be endowed by my Heavenly Father to receive gifts and talents. So maybe someday I'll be called again on a committee and I won't be prepared like

those men who were not builders. But, you know, the Lord can make us equal to the tasks that come our way. You know, if we are faithful and develop new talents that will bless not just our lives and our families, but we can roam around and what you're doing, bless the whole earth. Yeah. I think that the blessings of verse 28 can still be with us even without Jackson County. If you read verse 28, I will bless her with blessings, a multiply and multiply a multiplicity of blessings upon her and upon her generations forever and ever. Um, that's still found in the temple, even though perhaps this expectation of this temple is going to be put off for a little while. Um, um, and how I've just, I would ask you, Susan, you've seen your, your having known you personally,

you've seen your fair share of, of trials and difficulties and the loss of expectations, right? Do you think I was raising my hand in the pre-existence saying, choose me, I can handle that. You probably look back and say, you naive little spirit, you put your hand. Yeah. Don't choose that one. Yeah. Don't choose that one. How do you, um, how do you, I, I just will ask you a personal question. How have you dealt with, uh, the, the loss of what maybe you'd hoped would happen? All right. I think, you know, I think for everybody, you know, growing up in California, I was definitely going to be a model forever. Right. And I didn't want to be a movie star, but a model was going to be good enough. Supermodel. And, you know about and it doesn't happen. And, uh, oh, there's something about trust the journey, trust in the Lord. He knows who you are. And, uh, um, you know, it may not be perfect, but it might just be good enough for now.

And, um, you know, never lose sight of you're a child of God. You can do this and you can do hard things and you can carry more. And if you lose sight of either, well, I kind of have a saying that if you don't have trials and problems, the Lord's scratched you off his list. He doesn't need you anymore. But if you have enough trials and problems going forward and you still serve and you still sacrifice and you're still kind and loving, you know, the windows of heaven will open up, not in a way perhaps you'd ever imagined, but in many ways more wonderful because there's these surprise. And anyway, it can be wonderful, but you have to keep holding on to the rod.

You can't drop. You can't just touch it. You know, the rod of iron, you know, word of God, you know, just, just keep holding on. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I, you know, as I, as I think about these poor folks crossing the Missouri river saying, I thought, you know, I, I thought this would happen. I think of those same, John, we talked about the two disciples on the road to Emmaus. I thought, I thought I had an expectation, right? And then we had hoped that he would, yeah. I thought that we were going to build Zion and Jesus was going to come and it was going to be

great. And now I'm crossing the Missouri river and I don't have a place to live. And why has the Lord let this happen? Right. Um, okay. Is it because he loves you? Yeah. I mean, think how many people you can help because of what you two have been through. I mean, it's, it's that simple. You know, if you live in a sequestered and don't reach out, man, no chance. Right. And it seems the most, it seems those who run to those who sucker, those who run to others are those who have been there themselves. And they have something to say and they have some credibility. I, um, I love to tell the teens and my own kids that maybe the Lord loves you too much to let your life be easy, because if you have, if you have shallow experiences, you might just end up well well, shallow. But if you have deep, even hard experiences, you are in such a position to help others.

Like you said, Hank, you'll be able to run to others and do some same boat therapy. I have been there. I have been in that spot before and to lift others because you've been there and you'll have credibility because of it. I wonder if, you know, some of these saints who crossed the Missouri into Clay County are there with the saints who are driven from far west five years later saying, hey, I've done this before. Right. And here we go again. Those who are leaving Nauvoo to be driven across the Mississippi the other direction are saying, I've been here before. There's a lot of empathy in these groups because this isn't going to be the first time for many of them when that occurs. It's humbling. I just don't know if I could do it. And you read about what they've been through. What did Harold B. Lee say?

We're going through the test of gold now and where we have enough to eat and enough to do and shelter. And look at these people. And just I just want to in looking at them and saying, how come they didn't build the temple? I don't ever want to sound like. Yeah, that's me too. Gosh, you guys get with it. Can you be like us? Sitting from my air conditioned house where I watched the prophet on my TV saying, man, those Missouri saints, they should have.

They should have done things differently. You know, that's a hard spot. But here it's the Lord. I haven't walked on snow barefoot yet. Yeah. Now let's make that clear to all of our listeners. It's the Lord saying this in section 97, not us three. We are not saying it. Susan, you've been studying church history almost, well, you don't look it, but it has been decades. Yeah, it's been a long time. How can you say that?

Not only have you studied Nauvoo, you've walked its streets, you've looked through, you know, you know, this history of these people, you've seen their, like the Lord mentions here, you've seen when they are humble and they're learning wisdom. And you've seen also when they are, you know, many who didn't make it or who made mistakes and stumbled, even the leadership, right? Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon and others like him, both succeeded and failed. You've seen it all. So I think our listeners would love to know how you feel about these. To me, when you talk about them, Susan, they seem like your friends. I've heard you talk about Martin Harris, and it's almost like you're his friend. You say, oh, come on, Martin. Oh, I'd like to be his friend.

Come through. How do you feel about all these names that we've gone through in these first 97 sections. Okay, so I actually did a study on those that made it to the end of the row and those that, you know, in and out, in and out, like a revolving door and those that fight against Joseph. So I found that there are blessings, definitely blessings for faithfulness. And you'd say, well, well it is is it you'll never get sick you'll never be run over by a wagon okay i mean yeah you know is it you'll never have heartache in your family you know and i'm going no no no no but the consistent blessings were um they seem to have a pipeline to heaven that, that spirit of revelation that president Nelson is talking about.

We need to get personal revelation. You see that time and time again, there were three things. The second thing was they have confidence and you go, well, imagine the three men we've talked about. You're, you're going to be on a building committee. I'm going to be what, you and they they have confidence and then the third was they have responsibilities added to them and uh you go well i don't want that i don't need anymore but but they continue to be like uh added upon what the lord is you know and you, it's kind of like I can carry more.

Just heap it on me. I am ready to go. And those three qualities seem to be the qualities I can find in those that were faithful in building the Kirtland Temple, the, you know, the press building in Independence that that fled. And and it's like they just started over so you've got spirit of the lord confidence and just added responsibility comes their way it seems to me sometimes when i've when i've heard you speak that you've walked with them almost i guess in your in your mind in your mind when you read about them do you do you walk with them around navoo and across the Mississippi?

Well, you know, I don't know if I'd be worthy to do that. Actually, I think they're just, you know, to me, they're lion eyes. You know, I just think they're magnificent. But I have written on every person that joined the church between 1830 and 1848. So they have been a big part of my waking hours, you know, figuring, learning about their lives and their ability to sacrifice like we're talking about. And I'm just so impressed. Yeah. Yeah. I think that is a good word for so far in the Doctrine and Covenants, John, don't you? Very impressed. Very impressed by these. Yeah, very impressed.

And kind of humbled going, I don't want that to be my test, you know. Yeah. And there's more to come. I wish we could say, wow, yeah, being driven out of Jackson County was the worst of it all. But there's going to there's there's more to come. More trials await them. Right. And I guess we should both love and hate that. That I I hate the idea that more difficulty is on its way for them and for us. But I also but I also rejoice in the fact that the Lord is still, like you said, those

three things, Susan, that we can have confidence, we're full of the spirit and the Lord has more responsibility for us. I'm just so blessed to be here today because I am, after looking at this, I am so anxious myself to get back to the temple just because I can feel how anxious the Lord is to give them temple blessings. That's the impression I keep getting today. And it's gotten me fired up to get get back there. If you would have asked me in February of 2020, how anxious are you to get to the temple? I would have said, yeah, I get there as often as I can.

Right. And then here we are. What this recording, what are we, 18 months since that? And you're right with studying this doctrine covenant. You're going, I, I think I was taking it for granted a little bit. And I don't want to, I don't want that to happen again. We almost Susan have been able to put ourselves in the last 18 months in the, a little bit in the shoes of these saints waiting for the temple to open, right? Waiting for it. Yeah. Waiting. We've had a taste of it and want to get back there.

And they, the Lord's like, you, you have no idea what I have for you. Just build it. All right. Well, we want to thank Dr. Susan Black for being with us today. It is always a pleasure. And we hope we hope we'll have you back again, Susan, before the year's over. We want to thank all of you for listening. John and I wouldn't have this wonderful podcast if nobody listened to it. So thank you all. And thank you for sharing it with your friends and family. We've had a lot of people say, oh, my mom told me about your podcast

or my brothers texted me and said, you got to listen to this. And it, you know, that blesses us, blesses us and blesses, we hope, everyone who listens to it. We want to thank you for your support. We have our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson, who are much like the John Johnsons and Vienna Jacques of 2021, right? Who are just so generous. We have a great production crew who, though they're not on the podcast, they are working hard behind the scenes. David Perry, Jamie Nielsen, Lisa Spice, Kyle Nelson, Will Stotten, and Maria Hilton. We want to say thank you to our team. And we hope you'll join us on our next episode of Follow Him. you