followHIM - Ephesians Part 1 • Dr. Matthew Richardson • Oct 2 - Oct 8

Episode Date: September 27, 2023

How does conversion rely upon revelation and revelators? Dr. Matthew Richardson examines Paul’s letter to the Ephesians, discusses conversion, and how God reveals mysteries through revelation to His children.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-41-52/YouTube: https://youtu.be/7_SE3EZJr5oFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYPlease rate and review the podcast!00:00 Part 1–Dr. Matthew Richardson01:56 Introduction of Dr. Matthew Richardson03:39 The city of Ephesus05:52 Roman armor08:27 Paul’s introduction to the letter09:59 Come, Follow Me beginnings13:44 Paul and Mormon parallels14:07 Dr. Richardson shares a personal story about his dad’s letters15:47 Becoming a new creature17:14 Predestination and the fabric of conversion22:49 Magic vs mysteries24:59 Conversion and great mysteries27:25 God shares all 29:04 “Unfolding the Mysteries through Revelation”30:40 Lehi as a “visionary man”34:58 Paul is a “prisoner of Christ”38:01 God’s answers aren’t fast40:17 Dr. Richardson shares a personal story about love44:07 The dispensation of the fulness of times47:02 Administration of the gospel49:46 the last days and “knowledge of truth”51:17 Distractions52:42 Crisis vs decision54:56 Dr. Richardson shares a story about Elder Eyring57:59 Conversion and commitment58:58 Dr. Richardson shares a story about his recent mission59:42 Marriage vows and misunderstanding Paul’s words1:04:52 Children of light and reverence1:08:21 Prophets are for our benefit1:11:16 Dr. Richardson shares a personal story about President Nelson1:12:40 No more strangers in Christ and remove bias and prejudice 1:16:22 End of Part 1–Dr. Matthew RichardsonThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my wonderful co-host, John, by the way. Welcome, John. Thanks, Hank. This is going to be a good day, John. I can feel it. We are going to be in the book of going into that big amphitheater there, Great is Diana of the Ephesians 4. He gave some apostles and prophets and evangelists and pastors. This is one I've always remembered. John, we have a fantastic guest with us today. Brilliant scriptorian. His name is Dr. Matt Richardson. Matt, I know you've written some on Ephesians. What are we looking forward to today? Ephesians is a wonderful letter, but in so many ways, it's really nice if we can read a little bit in between the lines. So I'm hoping that today we'll see the obvious and see the things that Paul points out, the things the seminary students

have memorized and be able to see that. But I'm hoping we can also get a flavor of a grander vision or at least some of the things, threads, if you will, part of that great fabric, what Paul is weaving together and see some of the principles, not just the practices that he mentions specifically. I'm really thrilled about this. It's an exciting book. It's a book that is meant not just to be read, but to be contemplated and then put into play by the way that we live. It's a disciple's book. I'm excited. Oh, how fantastic. John, Matt is new to our podcast. I've been wanting him on for years. He just hasn't been available. I know that you and he go way back. Can you introduce him to our audience? Yes. Matt was a great mentor to me and a lot of other EFY counselors back in the day and was one of our favorite faculty back at EFY. So

I'm calling him Matt. I need to say Dr. Matthew O. Richardson. And also helped me in my master's program. So I'm really glad to see him back. And you'll understand why I say see him back as I read this bio. As a young man, he served his mission in Denmark. He received degrees from BYU in communications, educational leadership and curriculum, and a doctorate in educational leadership. In CES, he taught in the church educational system from 1986 to 1993, joined the religion faculty at BYU in 1996. He received the Robert J. Matthews Teaching Award from April of 2009 to 2014. He also served as the second counselor to Russell T. Oscathorpe in the church's General Sunday

School presidency. So that's why some of you may recognize, hey, I think I've seen him speak in General Conference. Then in 2020, he was called to serve as mission leader with his wife, Lisa, to Minneapolis, Minnesota. So he's now back from that mission assignment and back in religious education again. So we're really glad to have you back. Did I miss anything in that bio there, Matt? He probably gave way too much. Most people have fallen asleep by now that you did not miss anything. And it's a pleasure to be here.

Thank you for inviting me. And I'm hoping that we can see some things today. John, I've been waiting. I've been waiting. I think at the airport, there was Matt's family. And then I was right behind him going, do you want to be on Follow Him? Hey, do you want to be on the podcast? Yeah.

Welcome back. Welcome back. Let's get started. All right. Let me read a little bit from the manual matt and then we're gonna hand it over to you and see what you want to do the manual has a great introduction here it says when the gospel began to be spread in ephesus it caused no small stir that's from acts 19 among the ephesians local craftsmen who produced shrines to a pagan goddess saw christianity as a

threat to their livelihood i remember talking about John. And soon they were full of wrath and the whole city was filled with confusion. Imagine being a new convert to the gospel and in such a setting. Many Ephesians did accept and live the gospel amid this uproar and Paul assured them that Christ is our peace. These words, along with his invitation to let all bitterness, wrath, anger, clamor, and evil speaking be put away, seem as timely and comforting now as they were then. For the Ephesians, as for each of us, the strength to face adversity comes in the Lord and in the power of his might. It's a great introduction. Matt, let's turn it over to you.

Where do you want to go with Ephesians? John, you've been there, and so you've seen some of the geography of the area, and you can almost capture, you have to use your imagination to capture what it was like because, you've been there, and so you've seen some of the geography of the area, and you can almost capture, you have to use your imagination to capture what it was like, because the amphitheater that you mentioned is large, and you can imagine what it was like in its day. Very impressive. Some of the historians, when they talk about Ephesians and they look at that, they're saying, look, this was not just a city, but it was a beautiful city. I mean, it's a port city, so there's a lot of trade that's going on. Now, the reason I bring this up is because it's important to have context because Paul does not just write a letter and send it out in mass. He's writing letters, what we like to call often

epistles to individual saints. And so they're flavored with what's taking place in their lives. Hank, as you were mentioning and describing what it would have been like to be a convert, but this is a port city. Roman industry was prevalent. As a matter of fact, they described Ephesians. One of the things I liked about description is when they talked about the promenade, the main street in Ephesians, and they said, this isn't just nice, it's the most splendid. This is the quote, splendid street in the Roman empire. This is a beautiful city, temporally speaking, but it also becomes an oasis for those who are looking for something of more substance beyond the temporal. It has the Roman influence. Hence, when we start to talk about, and I'm hoping we'll look at the armor of God, this

is where you start to see the armor of God imagery. Paul, in his visit, he knew the Roman influence, but he also knew that everyone in Ephesians could see what the legions were like. They would come into port, they would march to different areas. So when you start to talk about armor, especially armor of the day, you're looking at something that the imagery would be very vivid and ripe for the people at that time. But also Paul can use it in a masterful way in his teaching to be able to teach principles and points. This is an amazing city. It has a tremendous Greek influence as well. Sometimes we think that the Roman Empire, they ruled all thought, but they were heavily influenced

by the Greek philosophy and thought as well. This is really almost a potpourri. It's a mixing pot where you mix a lot of these things that are taking place at the time from trade, industry, artisans, a lot of violence in some ways, persecution that would take place. I think it's important to point out that when you start to look at the saints in Ephesians, these are mostly all converts, of course, but they're Gentiles. For me, that flavors when you start to look at the discussion about one of the great mysteries of the Gentiles and the Jews coming together in the family of God so when you see Paul and we'll get more into this one talking about strangers and foreigners he's writing to the former strangers and foreign foreigners those who have left the life of the Gentiles so to speak

and they're now part of the family. So this is an amazing letter. I think that it's worth noting here that you see a lot of Paul, obviously, in the way that he's styling and writing this. He's sensitive to those that he's writing to. He's also sensitive to the needs, and so he's not afraid to give some straight-out, great, bold advice. David Barr, who is a New Testament scholar, he wrote a line once in one of his books when he was talking about the Pauline epistles or the letters of Paul. And he said, I'm going to quote this because I just like his wording on this. He said, quote, Paul's letters are always vigorous expressions of his person, close quote. Now, I know we're doing Ephesians,

but when you start to think of that one, what David Barr was saying is, boy, when you start to read the letters of Paul, if you think about Paul writing these letters or those that are attributed to Paul, you start to say, I like that line, you see a vigorous expression of the person that we call Paul. I mean, it's really a fascinating thought. So Paul does this in all of his letters. He'll do an introduction of himself and he uses different descriptors of himself. Like he calls himself the stock of Israel from the tribe of Benjamin, the untimely born when he's writing to the Corinthians. And then he gets vigorous into this. And what he means by that is my birth is not the normal type and my path is not the normal type. He's not just talking about

his heritage birth, but of course his conversion birth, being born again. He says, I'm an apostle to the Galatians. He says, I'm the one to bring obedience to the saints. I'm the bond servant. In Ephesians, we'll see that he talks about being a prisoner of Christ. And some people, they get hung up on that descriptor right off the bat and they'll say, oh, he's wishing to escape or he thinks that it's a burden to be part of Christ. And that's not Paul at all. This is a vigorous expression of him as a person. He's saying, look, when I joined, when I became born into this and I had the rebirth of experience, my passion and vigor was still there as it was in my pre-conversion. Then he says, but I'm not going anywhere. I locked my heart into this, throw away the key. And when he uses the word

prisoner, it's not a bad thing he's talking about. It's a self-chosen place that he's going to be, and he will never leave, as if a prisoner cannot leave. This is a beautiful way to start to look at, I think, is Paul's letters and saying, don't forget the man who is writing it, the apostle, the servant who is writing it, and the way that he's doing it. And that's why I like David Barr's description. It's a vigorous expression of who he is. And you can tell he loves the Lord because in every one of

his letters, and Ephesians is no exception. As a matter of fact, you see it almost effusive throughout this book, which is roughly 155 verses, but yet it just oozes of his vigor and love of his discipleship for Jesus Christ. One last side note on this one is John mentioned that I served in the General Sunday School Presidency. It was during the time where Come Follow Me was actually being developed. I thought I would just throw that out there because the way that this started to come about was we would meet with prophets, seers, and revelators. Honestly, it's a time that I will never forget where they were impassioned.

Do you want to talk about vigorous expressions of individuals? They were impassioned about their concern for the well-being of the saints, of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and all those who would love to come and follow the Savior Jesus Christ. The discussion when it started to the whole process of how Come Follow Me was developed was we need to get conversion deep into the hearts of the saints. It wasn't, we need them to know more. We need them to know about the Savior more. And we forgot to tell them this or that. We need to tell them more of the standards, the practices, and the principles of the gospel. It was, how do we help individuals

receive the gospel into their lives and where it goes? This is a phrase that President Nielsen, who was directing some of this, and then Robert D. Hells, Elder Hells, they use this phrase all the time, get it deep in the hearts of the saints. I remember during that time, we would get assignments. And so we'd be together with all the general officers of the church, the General Relief Society, General Young Women's, General Primary, General Young Men in the Sunday school. And Elder Helz would say, we need to talk about conversion. So I want you to go home and read your scriptures about conversion. And I want you to send me what you find.

It needs to be about six pages long. I don't want less than six, because that means you didn't think very much about it, but I don't want more than six, because I don't have time to read them. And I remember at the time, Julie Beck was the General Relief Society president. We were sitting next to each other, and we looked at each other, and we said, we're getting homework from an apostle. We're getting a homework assignment. And there was part of me that I wanted to raise my hand. Is this double spaced? How wide are the margins? Pete What's the font size?

Pete Exactly. It was a great challenge because we went back into the scriptures and each of us went and had the experience to look for conversion and what was taking place in the scriptural experiences, the admonitions, the historical context and say, what was taking place in the scriptural experiences, the admonitions, the historical context and say, what was happening with conversion? Because everything was focused on getting the gospel deep in the hearts of the saints. So when you think about that, at least I do, this is kind of the way my brain works. That's the way that this started to unfold is helping individuals see what they're doing, helping them exercise their own agency. Paul is a pretty good come follow me apostle, and he does this in Ephesians. And you'll see that it's almost like here's the come follow me lesson for the Ephesians for the

time. And he gives great admonitions, but it was never the intent to say you need to know the following things in these 155 verses. The intent was, let me give you some things that is intended for you to personally say, now what will I do with those and let them go deep into my heart through my understanding, through my living, and through my practice. And that's why I kind of like this thought of look at what's happening in this wonderful, wonderful book. Yeah, when you mentioned we get to know Paul through his writing, I thought of the Book of

Mormon and with Mormon. Initially, we don't know anything about him when he starts writing. And so we have to get to know him through how he writes until we eventually get to the Book of Mormon in the Book of Mormon. Then we can start learning about him. But beforehand, you only get to know him through the way he writes. And you really can get to know someone through the way you organize their thoughts. It's a super good point. As a matter of fact, you know, this is a little bit on the opposite side from the academic side. For those who look at the veracity of Paul's letters, and they'll say, what's the authorship of this? Hank, to your point, is the way they do that is through their voice of the way that they write so many times.

So can you get to know someone through the writings? Yes. I remember one time I was going through my mom and dad's attic trying to get things out and stuff and help clean up, find my old junk and things. I found this old tattered box and I pulled it out and opened up and it was filled with letters. And they were letters that my father had written to my mother when they were courting. He was from Texas. She was from Utah. They met right after World War II while he was debriefing from the war, et cetera. They met and then he wrote these letters. Oh my gosh. I thought I knew my father, but then I started reading these letters and I saw a different side of my father where I started to see a tenderness and a love and a gooeyness and a like, who is this person? But I remember sitting up there and sometimes I was very emotional reading these letters about I could feel through what he was writing, how he was writing in the context.

I came to know him. And I think that this is the beauty of scriptures is when we allow ourselves, we come to know prophets, seers, and revelators. We know these apostles and those who are writing by the way that they talk about things. Paul was a passion, vigorous man, and he was not afraid to be able to share. That doesn't mean that he was bold to the point where he'd push people away. He was passionate. For me, he was a believer, and I knew he was a believer the first time I read anything that he wrote. Yeah, I love this. Thank you for talking about the idea of conversion.

I feel like the idea of becoming, instead of just knowing and doing, but becoming something different is something we're talking about more and more, I think, in the church. I love that Paul, he uses this phrase, and he already used it in some of the previous things we studied, but of becoming a new creature. It's not just, I'm a better person than I was. I'm a new creature. I'm a new creation. And conversion is changing from one thing to another. And when we think about Paul and his road to Damascus, wow, that was a huge change for him. So I love this idea of him writing this. Paul, who had such an experience and had to become a whole different creature. And isn't it interesting that when you talk about this new creature transition,

this deep conversion changing of who we are, not just our location, but who we are, our thought process, our desires, et cetera. In Ephesians, he uses an interesting concept here where on several times he uses the term where we look at it. For example, in chapter one, in verse five, he says, having predestined us to the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of Christ's will. So this predestined term comes up. You see that again, a little bit later in chapter two, in verse 10, it talks,

God hath before ordained. Now, some people think that predestined is what we use it by today's standards as predestination. It's predetermined. We have no agency. It's already determined. But the way Paul talks about this, because when you start to look at it in the Greek, it's predetermined. We have no agency. It's already determined. But the way Paul talks about this, because when you start to look at it in the Greek, it's predefined is what it means. It's not predetermined. It's predefined. Or in other words, it's preordained. So here's kind of a crazy, wild thought is, and I'm glad you brought this up, John. So we talk about conversion of becoming new creatures in Jesus Christ. And the way Paul says it here is according to the adoption by Jesus Christ.

So it's not that we make ourselves new creatures. It's we make ourselves available to he who changes all things. And we become new in him. It's kind of like in the Book of Mormon where we become perfected in Jesus Christ, not because we did something special and we're all of that. And too many of us, myself included, we're constantly on the treadmill of perfection and grinding and saying, I'm not good enough. And I like every once in a while throughout the writings of the New Testament is like James will say is we'll come to know Jesus Christ and you'll be surprised. He's a lot like us and you're a lot like him, probably closer to being like him than you think

you are because we're so busy about this concept of perfection. But yet here, Paul is writing this because he's experienced it and he uses this foreordination preordain to become new to us, but maybe old to the vision of our Father in heaven, who knew what we could become in the very beginning. And you think of patriarchal blessings and you think of all the blessings that we receive at the hand of the power of our Father in heaven. And it's almost like he's rekindling who he used to become and giving us visions of times forgotten. And he's saying, come home, come home and be who you were foreordained, not predetermined who you would become, but who you choose to become through this wonderful, glorious plan of salvation process. And you will be new. But to me, you'll be the person

that I knew you could always become. It's really a beautiful concept. And this is conversion and it has to be personal. Conversion is personal. It always drives me crazy when I hear missionaries talk about quote, the mission. When I serve the mission, when I was on the mission, I'm like, well, what mission is that? It's kind of like sometimes when I was on the mission, I'm like, well, what mission is that? It's kind of like sometimes when I hear spouses talk about each other, well, let me go talk to the wife. I'm like, what is the wife? I mean, are there several of them?

Or is this the wife above other wives? What are you talking? The wife, that sounds so impersonal. And I tell our missionaries, I hope that you'll never refer to this as the mission. This needs to be your mission. It needs to be my mission. It is our mission because everything about the gospel of Jesus Christ is personal. And conversion is a deeply personal experience and it changes as we change and it deepens as we pay the price.

And so this is beautiful. When you start to look at Paul writing about conversion, he's telling a story, inviting in certain terms, everyone to say, your path may be a little bit different and I'm going to give you a broad range. Here he's with the Ephesians and he's saying, look, here we go. You ready for this? This is going to be personal. Now, as mentioned, this is written to converts, converts who are Gentiles. And how are they doing in this sea of a mess with philosophies, with trade from Roman, the emphasis on temporal goods, power in their face all the time, maybe oppression, suppression from their peers, as well as from politicians, group leaders, power mongers. How are they doing? Apparently, they're doing pretty well. As a matter of fact,

look in chapter one, by the time you start to go through and you look at verse 11, it says, we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined, predefined, preordained, according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will, that we should be to the praise of Christ's glory and trusted in God. Then he says this, the end of line, verse 13, is he says, the gospel of your salvation in whom after ye believed ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise. That's not like saying, hey, you guys are doing okay. It seems that we have a range here of those who are coming into the fold, learning how to be saints, learning to grow into it. And then you have individuals here,

at least according to Paul's words, who have been sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise. Some like to call that the calling and election. Make sure Peter talks about this. These are individuals that aren't iffy, and maybe they'll be here tomorrow. These are people who have become converted, not just converts, meaning they joined the church. So right off the bat, in my opinion, Paul is writing to converts and he's saying, joining is not enough.

That's the beginning. Welcome aboard. You're part of the household of faith. So when you start to read through things like no more strangers, you're like going, oh my gosh, he's really giving this beautiful sermon. And all of these verses actually are the threads that weave together and they make this beautiful convert, not as in membership, but conversion fabric. Ephesians was also a place where there were a lot of magicians.

I know this is going to sound weird, but it was a theatrical place and there was this concept of magic and mystery surrounding that one. Oh, how did you do that? Well, it's magic. So when Paul arrives in the book of Acts, there are some individuals who consider him to be yet another of the many magicians. He's talking about magical things or mysterious things. And so with that in mind, it should be no surprise to those who know a little bit about this hodgepodge of a gathering with all these influences. If this is a home of the David Copperfields of the time, and if you want to go see a good magic show, go to the amphitheater

there, Diana, and you're going to see some great entertainment. You see this magic. But Paul shows up, and what is not magic necessarily, it's miraculous. And he talks about the miracles of Jesus Christ. But here's the part of it is what surrounds magic, and I don't know a whole lot about this, but it's sleight of hand. It's keeping things on mysterious things where we don't tell you our secrets. We're not going to show you how we did that trick because then you'll lose the magic of it all and it becomes easily explained. But I like that the concept here is what Paul does is he talks about mysteries. When you look at the book of Ephesians and you start to jump in there,

this is an important concept, mysteries and what that would mean to these people. We're not talking about magic. We're talking about mysteries. And mysteries is a little bit of a difficult thing to understand because sometimes we say, this is mysterious. I don't understand it. But then we start to read into things like we cannot understand it. And so one of the great mysteries Paul will talk about is the relationship, the intimate relationships. When I say intimate, I'm talking about emotional, all aspects of it, of married life, specifically the relationship between a husband and wife who are converts working towards conversion, conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ, but also conversion to one another.

I hope that makes sense. It's not a competing element, but learning to be converted to your spouse. This is one of the things I love about the gospel of Jesus Christ is this was not intended to be a Sunday experience. It teaches us, and once again, John, thanks for bringing this up, to become new creatures where we see things differently. It's not our membership. We see people differently. We see ourselves differently. We see life differently. And part of that extends into this great mystery Paul brings up about marriage, is seeing a spouse differently, becoming converted or changed in that way. And he gives tremendous advice,

but some people say, oh, I can't figure this whole marriage thing out. It is a mystery. Women, they're mysterious to me. Men, they are the grand mystery. And really in that frustration, what we're saying is, I don't understand it. I can't understand it. And it's mysterious. So therefore it cannot be known. So when Paul starts to talk about mysteries, he talks about the relationships of Gentiles and Jew or the household of faith. He talks about marriage between a husband and a wife in the household of that faith. And then he starts to talk about other elements of the mystery of what happens in a fullness, a dispensation of the fullness of times.

And how is that supposed to work in the world that we live where there's a constant tension between the world where we're living and the world that Christ would like us to live in? It's mysterious. And most of us, we throw our hands up in the air and we're living and the world that Christ would like us to live in. It's mysterious. And most of us, we throw our hands up in the air and we're like, I've tried this. Don't tell me to pray. I remember I prayed once when I was 16 and it didn't work. So I guess it's not knowable. I know how this goes.

I work on this every day in my life as well. But we're all in this experience. This is the life of a disciple or becoming converted is how do you stay in the game and don't give up when you're seeking to find answers? It's mysterious and yet natural man in all of us, there's a tendency to give up. So what should we do in times where we feel we don't have the strength? Read Ephesians. Try Ephesians on for size, because this is a whole spectrum of saints who are on the road to conversion, and some are doing so great that it says that, you know, it comes down, they're sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, and others who had just joined,

and they're getting their house burned down by their neighbors who are upset or threatened, as was pointed out earlier. This is a great little book. When we talk about mysteries, Paul uses that term at least on four occasions throughout this short little book of scriptures right here, or the short letter. He talks about mysteries, but keep in mind that in Greek, when we look at that, when we talk about things that are mysteries, the Greek word for that, when you start to look at mysterion, is a secret. It's a secret. And some people say, yeah, it's a secret God won't share. That's contrary to everything that Paul has taught, everything that prophets,

seers, and revelators from every time period, dispensation of time, comes down to have taught that's not the case. Sure, there are things that are not revealed openly at first, but God, I don't know if he's a good businessman. He shares all the company secrets, and he'll tell you the secret formula for the secret sauce, and he will reveal his secrets. It's not a secret, so it's not that it's unknowable. It's revealed, and then the question comes,

and welcome to Ephesians, how does God reveal his mysteries? How does he reveal his secrets? And this is one of the reasons for me personally that I love the book of Ephesians, is he talks about the economy or the administration, the way that he reveals his great mysteries or the great miracles. And that of course is going to be done through prophets, seers, revelators, pastors, evangelists, and individuals that are not telling people what to do, but they are the great revealers, revealers. Matt, this is going to be a little bit odd,

but I'm going to quote you back to you. This is an article that you wrote for the RSC. That's the Religious Studies Center. John, we talk about the RSC all the time. We hope our listeners will go to the RSC. It's just rsc.byu.edu. And there's this article by Matt Richardson called Ephesians unfolding the

mysteries through revelation. And this paragraph, as I read this before the interview, this jumped out at me and then you started talking about it. So I'm going to quote you back to you. You wrote thus, at least textually, we know that a mystery can be no, but Paul's letter to the Ephesians did more than teach that God knows the answers, even though he may not be revealing what they are. Paul taught the Ephesians that Christ had made known unto us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he has purposed in himself. More than just knowing all things, Paul taught, as Elder Neal A. Maxwell said, Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are actually giving away the secrets

of the universe and then just one more paragraph paul later teaches that it was by revelation that the mysteries were made known unto him present herald b lee also connected revelation to mysteries he said mystery cannot be known except by revelation with this connection in mind no wonder jacob warned us that we must not despise the revelations of god for no man knoweth of his ways save it be revealed unto him i'm guessing that's going to be probably a little bit of what we talk about today is those mysteries can be known by revelation but how do you beat elder maxwell or yeah the scriptures that talk about this as a matter of fact if there's one common thread through all scriptures, it's that very essence is,

look, I understand and I'm here and I want to tell you, I want to help you. It's fascinating. You go to the Book of Mormon and you look at Lehi's family. So, your father is a prophet. In other words, he's a revealer, so to speak, a revelator. And it's not like he's necessarily just talking about new unknown concepts. He's revealing things that have been known in the ages. He's sharing God's secrets and God's sharing those through his prophet. He comes home and he tells the family. And isn't it interesting?

Laman and Lemuel's reaction to their dad is they call him a visionary man. But the way they say it is, you vision, dad's a visionary man. It's an insult. But Nephi's over there going, my dad's a visionary man. But the way they say it is, dad's a visionary man. It's an insult. But Nephi's over there going, my dad's a visionary man. Same concept, different places for these individuals. One's looking at it as you are telling me what to do. This doesn't jive with my world, Laman and Lemuel. You have Nephi and Sam who are over there going, you are sharing God's secrets and telling us how we can have greater joy in our lives. It's not jiving with my world. So what do I need to do to be able to come to this mysterious outcome? And we do this today. I mean, we read the

Book of Mormon and poor Laman and Lemuel get a bad rap. And it's like, I was like Laman and Lemuel yesterday, is we despise the prophets. If you look at the purpose of General Conference, when I was younger, I thought General Conference was a great time because you get to go to church in your pajamas and you don't have to leave the couch and you can get treats. You know, and then do you remember Elder Richard G. Scott? He was so intent when he'd speak at conference, he'd look into the camera and you knew he was looking at your soul. You never went to get a drink of water when Elder Scott was speaking because there's a chance he might say, hey, hey, you, get back to that. Sit back down. Exactly. It's a tremendous effort and the cost to provide an opportunity every six months for a general conference so that we can have a chance to hear statistics. Well, that's interesting.

But I think that it's the revelators. It's the days of revelation where in Ephesians, the mysteries are being revealed through the designated prophet, even at Paul's time, when it comes down through prophets, seers, and revelators. So, for example, look in chapter 1. It comes and it says here in verse 9, having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure in which he hath purposed in himself. So it's not like he says, maybe I'll tell you some in his good pleasure, I think is similar to scriptures that talks about in his due time and in his way. But bottom line, core to this is mysteries are being revealed and he has made known to us the mysteries. For me and a lot of my experiences, when I get into trouble

in the process, here's the process. I'm telling you how mysteries are revealed. In my own due time, according to my good pleasure, for your good, I'm not going to give you, and other times Paul talks about, I'm not going to give you meat before your milk. I'm going to make it so that you can come. Book of Mormon talks about it, line upon line, precept upon precept. And then this is kind of funny after that orderly mention, then it says, oh yeah. And here a little, and there a little, according to my good pleasure. But his pleasure, think of his pleasure. You go to the Pearl of Great Price.

My work, my glory, my pleasure is bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of Father's creations. That's my work, and that's my pleasure. So His pleasure is never to withhold, but it's to reveal in ways that it will be able to go deep into the heart. And sometimes we need to do a lot of milk and sometimes we need to do a little bit of milk toast and a little bit of meat, et cetera. But the theme here I love is he has made known verse nine, the mysteries. I'm going to tell you about that. And so in chapter

three, here it comes down and he says, for this cause, all the introduction that I gave in chapter one, I love these little statements in scripture. And I think it's important. So whenever you see the word therefore or wherefore starting in a verse, I think it's important to pause and say, what is, what are you talking about? That is usually because of this that I've already taught you. So sometimes it's good to reread and say, oh, so since he talked about the mysteries revealed, the promises, et cetera, because of all these things, he says, I am a prisoner of Christ. And now this is the Joseph Smith translation. It says prisoner of Jesus Christ among you Gentiles. The regular King James version says Christ for you Gentiles.

I like this translation here. He's saying, I'm one of you. I've been to Ephesians. I visited. And by the way, I am on my conversion path also. I love that change that Joseph Smith offered is, I am the prisoner of Jesus Christ. I'm not going anywhere. I'm here to the end. I'm not trying to get out, and I'm among you Gentiles. And then in verse 2, it says, if ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God, Joseph Smith's translation says, verse 2 starts as, for the dispensation of the grace of God, which is given me to you word. Verse three, I'm still reading the Joseph Smith translation, okay? As ye have heard that by revelation, he made known unto me the mystery

of Christ, as I wrote before in a few words, whereby when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge, my experience, that's my wording, my knowledge in the mystery of Christ, which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and the prophets by the spirits. Then it comes down, look at this transition. I love transitions in the scriptures and I'm not saying this is right. This just helps me to order them as verse six starts with the word that sometimes it helps me to go through and it says, well, we're talking. And when a verse starts with that, sometimes for me, it's helpful to say so. So, so he teaches all this and then it comes down verse six. So that here's the reason why I'm telling you this, so that the Gentiles would be fellow heirs and of the same body

and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel. Wherefore, I was made a minister, a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. And then he goes on. Isn't this lovely? So here he's talking about something that's really important. He says, look, mysteries have been revealed to me, and I'm going to help you to understand what I've come to know, the mysteries that I've come to know, so that you can come to know them too. But they will be revealed, and it's going to come in his pleasure. Verse 5, it hasn't been done in other ages, but now it's done

because the timing is right for it to be received. Surely both of you and all of those who are listening, who are working through their conversion have had experiences where they have wrestled with coming to a knowledge, coming to an understanding, coming to an answer where they're praying. And then it comes at a later time. And for most of us, it's like, you could have told me 10 months ago. What was the wait for? It was his pleasure not to show that he's in charge necessarily or to torture. But I look back at my life as usually when I was complaining that it didn't come fast enough, I look back and I understand that when it came, it came at the right time. I had to be a little more humble, open to receive, or I didn't have sufficient knowledge, perhaps, to understand what he was telling me or the experience.

Does that make sense? Any thoughts on that? Yeah. My students, and I think me too, we're so used to quick answers now. It used to be when I was a kid, you at least had to go to the library and get an encyclopedia if you wanted to find out about something. But now I just typed Ephesians into a Google search and it says it found me 50,600,000 results in 0.42 seconds. And I need all 50 million of those because I'm going to go through each one. And you're telling me here that the things of God often come slowly and line upon line, here a little, there a little.

These two worlds of quick answers versus God's answers, those are going to butt up against each other more and more as time goes on. I like to tell my students, my worry about Gen Z is you want Google speed answers to golden questions. And every testimony begins with a test and every question begins with a quest. And sometimes God doesn't answer that quickly. I love what you're saying about mysteries here, because I think one definition of a mystery is kind of a throw up your hands. It's a mystery. But I was thinking as you were talking about a mystery novel there's a solution but you've got to go through it and you'll figure it out you'll figure it out at the end and i'm going back to paul and i don't know i just this really touched me when paul was in athens and was

let me declare the unknown god unto you and there's one verse where he says he is not far from us and and the jst kind of says and if we feel after him, he wants to be close. It's like he wants to be found. He's not one of these Greek gods that you're used to. The unknown God wants to be found and wants to reveal himself to you. It might not be with Google speed, like you're saying. And isn't that interesting, John, you bring up the mystery novels, et cetera. How many people read the first chapter and they can't take it. So they read the last and figure out how it's going to end. And the sad part is they miss the whole developing part of the story.

You know, we skip it, but that's the generation, or maybe it has been the history of man of all natural men is we want the fruit, but we don't want to pay the price. Here it comes through and it says, be patient on this one. This will be an odd analogy, but it just popped in my mind. So it's dangerous. But I remember when I was engaged and had fallen in love, we were engaged. We went to an engagement party with my wife's side of the family. I didn't know these people. And this kind of old, I thought he was super old.

He's probably younger than I am now. This old guy comes up to me and I felt he was a little confrontive. And he says, so you think you're in love? That's how we started the conversation. Like, okay. And I remember saying, oh, I'm embarrassed to say this. And I said, no, no, I don't think I'm in love. I am in love. I know I'm in love. And then he says, you don't know what love is. And I go, yes, I do. And he goes, no, you really don't. You're too young. You're too inexperienced. You don't really know what that's all about. And I, and I was a little offended by it. And I, and I said to

this man, I said, I have had the chance to drink from the well of love. And I drank, I drank from it a lot. I know I'm in love. And he says, well, you'll see. Now I was bugged by this guy. And I drank, I drank from it a lot. I know I'm in love. And he says, well, you'll see. Now I was bugged by this guy. And I went to my wife and said, who's that guy over there, man? Is he related to you? Seriously. But now, you know, we just celebrated our 40th year anniversary. While I didn't like his approach and his method, there was something about that is, um, yeah,

I drank from the well of love, but I had no idea how deep that well runs and the breadth of that well. So many of us, we want to be able to have that love for Christ, the love of Christ, which is deep and it is broad. And no wonder Paul talks about this with the mystery, the mysterious relationship between husband and wife, the relationship of family. We want that. And I think that we yearn for it, but here's the sad part. We want to skip to the end of the book and find out what the solution is. We want to take a quick sip from the surface waters, but yet it's swimming in those waters. And sometimes it's bobbing in those waters and treading in those waters and exploring

the waters and drinking deeply to the point where we can't drink more, where all of a sudden we become tried and true and things work upon us. It's called conversion. So yeah, we need to be patient. But then Heavenly Father, in His wonderful wisdom, and I think this is the point, again, is not to try our patience necessarily because there are times, and I'm sure both of you and many people have felt this, is where he gives you an instant answer. And you're like, well, what was that? Here's the funny part.

We doubt it. Yeah. Is that me speaking or is that the spirit speaking? Is it because I want this too much? And he's like going, you don't know my voice. Yeah. You're not knowing me. And if you're really worried, if it's right or wrong, corroborate it with what Paul wrote

to the Ephesians. The mysteries will be made known. And he, Paul, has done it. And it says, they have been made known in verse 5, revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. Cooperate your promptings. Not necessarily they're going to be, but cooperate your promptings with prophets, seers, and revelators, and they will hold true. So you see this as a foundation. And then when it talks about this dispensation, it's very easy, in my opinion, in verse six, that we start to talk about a dispensation of the fullness of times.

But notice really in verse two, it says for the dispensation of the grace of God, which has given to me, you work for you. It's almost like we have to say dispensation of the grace of God, which is given to me, you work for you. It's almost like we have to say dispensation of the fullness of times. It's a rule that we say that in one setting. I don't know if that's necessarily true. And Paul, here's just a thought to consider. Paul has split that apart. So yes, there is a time where it's the fullness of times. Well, all things will be coming together. And this is pretty exciting stuff. You've heard prophets, seers, and revelators saying, this will be an amazing time where all things are full,

the fullness of the gospel come together in that dispensation, that time. But Paul's talking about a different kind of a thought here where he talks about dispensation, not dispensation of the fullness of time, but a dispensation. And then he starts to talk about fullness of time. It's interesting in the Greek, the dispensation is translated where it's the same root word

for what we translate as economy. It starts to talk about the economy of the dispensation of time or other dispensations. It's the economy. And you might translate this in Greek into the administration, administration of. So sometimes we jump to and say, there will be a time period. And when we get there, it's going to be sweet and everything's going to be super great. And all our problems will be over, which by the way, seems reminiscent of the saints going to Zion.

Yeah, Missouri. We're going to plant a couple of trees and Jesus will probably come. Yeah. And when we get there, we'll love everyone. zion yeah missouri we're gonna plant a couple trees and jesus probably come yeah yeah and when we get there we'll love everyone could you imagine that ride from kirtland to missouri hey look there's zeke johnson over there in his covered wagon where's he going he must be going to zion yeah uh that guy is an idiot he didn't help me with my farm and stuff like that i can't stand zeke i don't know if i want to go to Zion if Zeke's going. But then you expect as when you cross the border into Zion, brother Zeke, come give me a hug. I love you. You are my brother, eternal friend. Some magical transformation happened. And we know that

that's not the case. And so when we start to look at what's happening with this wonderful conversion, it's becoming more than simply knowing, more than doing, although we must learn what we must learn so that we can do what we must do so we can become what we must be. And that's called conversion. And so here we come down and it's not like, this is what worries me. Oh, someday we'll be in the dispensation of the fullness of times and everything's going to be great. We don't have to do anything because everything's handed to us and all is well in Zion. Let's sing kumbaya or at least come, come ye saints. But yeah, read come, come ye saints.

And should we die before this journey's through, happy day. All is well with me because I am on the road to conversion. And it'll all come to pass at some point. This is an interesting element. So I like to sometimes just entertain the thought when I'm reading through, especially chapter three of the great mystery of the dispensation for, or of the fullness of times that maybe he's talking about the dispensation in the literal translation word is the economy, the administration that will bring about the fullness of times.

And what is that administration? What is that economy? The way that these things will bring about the fullness of times. And what is that administration? What is that economy? The way that these things will come about? That's chapter four. And he gave some apostles and he gave some prophets and some evangelists and some pastors and teachers. Why? I'm in chapter four and I'm looking down in verse, that was verse 11. Why? Verse 12. Oh,

for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry. Oh, and don't forget for the edifying of the body of Christ. Well, how long are we going to be doing that in this dispensation? Well, it's not necessarily the time, it's the economy. It's the way that we're going to be doing that. Verse 13. Well, we're going to do that till we, now Joseph Smith's translation flips this a little bit. He says, until we, in the unity of faith, we need to develop our unity of faith, all come to the knowledge of the Son of God unto a perfect man, unto the measure and stature of the fullness of Christ. Why? Verse 14. So, I added that one. That's my foible. So that we henceforth will be no more children being tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine by the slight of men, the cunning craftiness whereby they lie in wait to deceive. Verse 15, but speaking the truth in love

that they may grow up into him. Isn't that interesting wording? That they may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Jesus Christ, from whom the whole body fitly, I like the imagery here, fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth according to the effectual working in the measure of every part maketh increase in the body unto the edifying of itself in love. I don't know if you have the same experience, but for me, when I read things like that, boy, I can hear the echoes of Paul writing to the Corinthians where he's talking about gifts of the spirit, parts of the bodies, but we're all one body. You can hear the echoes of him talking to Bishop Tim. I like to call him Bishop Tim, Timothy, that young bishop and teaching him.

And he's saying, watch out Timothy, because in the last days, and you all know this as it says, perilous times shall come. And then he talks about how perilous and you're thinking, oh, it's going to be horrible hurricanes. It's going to be blood in the streets. And he talks about truce breakers. He talks about lovers of self. And then he says, towards the end of that little segment, he says, and in those last days, they will be ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge, not knowledge, it says knowledge of truth. In these last days, it's like you've already said, and what we've been talking about here, go to the internet, there's not a dearth of stuff out there. And it's not that people aren't smart.

Boy, we have smart people on this earth and they are ever learning, but we're not learning the things that are the knowledge coming to the knowledge of truth. And how do we get help for this one? It's mysterious. How do we figure out truth? I mean, what is truth and how do we apply it? Oh man, this is a mystery. Oh no, no. It's something that can be known. How do we know it? That's chapter four. You know it through verse 11. He gave some apostles and he gave some prophets. He gave evangelists or patriarchs, and he gave some bishops and he gave some teachers. For what purpose? So that we will not be blown to and fro with every wind, every possible conception, every new program that's out there that will be founded on the chief cornerstone, which by the way, as you know, is usually,

at least in ancient times, it was the first part that was laid. It was the first stone, because all stones were measured by that, cut by that. It was laying the foundation that would bear the weight. The cornerstone, which is Jesus Christ, do not get deviated in this crazy world we lived. I remember watching a popular cartoon movie once. There were dogs that they had these transmitters that could talk. And all of a sudden they were saying, we have this evil squirrel. Oh yeah, what were we talking about? We get squirreled so often in our world today. It's constant. We get squirreled in our marriages. We get squirreled in the fullness

of knowledge. We get squirreled in treating other people and bringing them into... It's a squirrel. We can't have a conversation. Squirrel, we should love one... Squirrel, I wonder what i'm going to eat tonight and yet what does paul talk about here is how do we stay on target oh well here's the anti-squirrel juice prophets seers revelators they will bring us back to the chief cornerstone from where we should be measuring oh i forgot squirrel oh this is more important that's a weird, but that's the world we're living in. And I think that when we say, yeah, prophets are good, understatement of the millennia, understatement of the millennia. They are a voice that helps us hear at least in a minimum, a different voice, an alternative, and a calling from days gone by from a loving father in heaven

saying, look, I want you to stay here. Please be close. And we talk a lot about crises of faith today, and they are very real where individuals say, well, I had a crisis of faith and I've thought about that and what that means and try to be empathetic or at least sympathetic. And I remember one time reading through and the word crisis actually from the Latin means decision. Usually we think of a crisis, it's over, my hair's on fire and I can't breathe through it. It's the crisis moment as I'm drowning and I'm going down for the last breath. And I'm not saying that we're describing this incorrectly, but maybe we should step back on the power of the words is a crisis is a time of decision. So don't panic. Don't jump out of the boat. Don't just give up. Don't abandon everything that you've believed in, whether it's your love in a marriage,

like Paul would be addressing here. Make a decision. Don't panic. Take some time. Get your bearings. What can you do to get some bearings? Maybe you ought to try some prophetic words. Maybe you ought to try prophets, seers, and revelators. You go see a bishop. Because he holds the power of God, we call them keys of the priesthood to administer the mysteries. Not because he is versed, not because your Relief Society knows all things, but because they've been called by the power of God and God gave some relief society presidents and he gave some ministers for families and he gave some bishops and especially prophets to help us, help us what? Through our crises,

through our moments of decision to have faith, you know what this is like. We know it personally or through friends and family to decide I'll have faith for one more day. Okay, I'm going to have faith. And that brings me to a thought. I was hired at BYU. My first experience, they had a little seminar for all the new people that were hired. There were about 35 of us. And Elder Eyring came to speak.

He was with Elder Perry. They both came. And Elder Eyring stood up and he was talking to this small group. And, oh, man, Elder Eyring, he talks fast, kind of like I do, when he's not on the pulpit. And he gets excited. It was really fun to see him. I go, holy cow. And he was just teaching.

And I'm like, oh, this is the best thing ever. And then all of a sudden he stops abruptly. And sometimes he goes like this and he crosses his arms. I can't see that very well, but he'll tap his lips. He's thinking. And he stopped talking and he's like, for a little bit, he's talking and he goes, you know, I do not know what faith is. And my first thought was, this is one of the smartest people I've ever met. If he doesn't know what faith is, I am in serious trouble. This is so horrible. My next thought was, maybe I should raise my hand and say, Elder Irene, Hebrews 11 has some really good things on faith. Alma 32 is good.

Try Bible Dictionary. You might enjoy that. It helped me. Thank goodness I didn't say a word. But I watched him stand for the longest time after making, I do not know what faith is. Tapping like this. And he was looking up in the back of the room long enough that I almost looked back there to say, what's going on? But then he paused and he said, and then he said this, he says, but I do know what faith looks like.

And then he paused for a moment and he said, faith looks like those who give their all to God without knowing what all is. Now, I didn't need to write it down. I did. I wrote it in my journal, but that one was imprinted upon my soul. And I have thought about and continue to think about that often. Now, think about that in relation to the Ephesians and the great mysteries. Hey, come join our church and have faith in Christ. This is a new concept. And Paul does a great job throughout the Ephesians going through and talking about

these great mysteries, but he talks about the reasons why Christ is worth it. It's in every chapter, it's verse after verse or every other verse, et cetera. He can't help himself. Hey, come and join us. You want to come join us? What does he do? He invites them to do that experience. And then he says, have some faith in this Jesus Christ. It will change you. It will, as John pointed out, and Paul wrote earlier,

it'll make you a new creature. You will become converted to it and you'll see everything differently. You have faith? Sure. And they enter in with enthusiasm like converts do. That's one of the favorite parts about serving a mission is converts. They want to try so hard. It's just so wonderful and so about serving a mission is converts. They want to try so hard.

It's just so wonderful and so pure. It's like children. And they come in as far as that goes and they say, I'm going to be the best member ever. I will never miss going to church. Yeah, I will read every manual. Yeah. Oh, it's just a beautiful concept. They have no idea what's coming down the pipe, but yet they entered into it with faith.

So no wonder, for me at least, this resonates so well, is these converts in Ephesians, they have come with a household of faith. And they say, okay, here we go. And they're Gentiles, by the way. And they're working through their marriages. And he says, yeah, I'm committed. I'll do everything that Christ tells me. I'll do it through the prophets, seers, and revelators. I'm committed.

And they have no idea what's going to happen next. I don't know what all is. They don't know what all is. And yet people jump in. Missionaries, yeah, I'm going to go to mission. I'm going to be the best missionary. I'll do everything I'm told. And they get out there and they say, I know he's going to have a companion, but I didn't know he was going to have this companion. This person's from Mars. They had

no idea, but then it comes back and say, so what are you going to do about it? And what's the answer? Have faith. This was part of the plan. I'm going to keep giving all. That's exactly right. We started our mission at the opening of the pandemic. We had COVID, we had the riots in Minneapolis. It was an adventure. So often our mission at the opening of the pandemic. We had COVID. We had the riots in Minneapolis. It was an adventure. So often our missionaries would say, President, this is not what I expected. This is not what I signed up for. And I remember thinking as they were talking, I'm like going, I never said it, but I'm thinking, I know what you feel like.

Do you think this is what I expected? Do you think I quit my job for this? You know, kind of a thing. but that's not the point at all. And all of a sudden I could hear Elder Eyring in my ear, you know, coming back and saying, I don't know what faith is, but I know what it looks like. It looks like those who give their all to God without knowing what all is. Think about marriage. So what does this have to do with Ephesians? When you start to get to chapter five. And sadly for me, this is just my opinion,

but sadly we get hung up in chapter five and we miss the whole point because of translations and words. So we start to freak out and I understand where we're coming from and we need to be sensitive and we need to be understanding. We need to be disciples to understand

this, but we get hung up on words like submit. Wives, submit yourselves. This is wrong. And yeah, that's wording that doesn't fit very well in where we're at in our development and understanding. But also we probably should be reading Greek, which is helpful to use the words that Paul was probably using. But more importantly is to find the concept. Does it require faith to enter into a marriage? More for my wife than for me, right? Even in civil ceremonies, they go through and they say that we, for better, for worse, for sickness, for health and things like that. In other words, I think I know what I'm getting into and I commit to be this type of person. Isn't it interesting in a temple sealing, you kneel humbly at an altar with a spouse.

And the wording there in just briefly is, is you don't take this person to be your lawfully wedded wife or a lawfully wedded husband. That's the traditional element. In the temple, you say, do you receive this person to be your spouse? There is a voluntary giving and there is a receiving and you do it on bended knee where you're humble. And all of a sudden that person, that woman or that man becomes actually your greatest gift or should be your greatest gift. You're receiving them. It's a gift. And you cannot take them and you cannot wield power against them.

If you want to go down that path, read Doctrine and Covenants section 121 and section 122. That this is not yours to wield. And all of a sudden you start to get back into this great mystery. Well, how's this supposed to work? It's on humility. And just like priesthood power, we receive it for the benefit of others. You can't give yourself a priesthood blessing. You can't call yourself to a calling.

It's a gift for you. And we learned that in D&C section 84 for the benefit of others. All of a sudden God's vision starts to change us. In Ephesians, it comes and it starts to talk about what Paul will call, you know, in verse 32, he says this, referring to the preceding verses in chapter 5. This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless, let every one of you in particular so love his wife, even as himself and the wife see that she reverence her husband. Reverence is once again, in our vernacular and our worry about this is it's like, oh,

see, I'm putting myself below my husband. No, you look, read all of your scriptures. What do we do with God? We love him with our heart, mind, and strength. We revere him. We have reverence, which is not just quietness. And some people say, see, wives are supposed to be quiet. That's not what this is saying.

To revere is to love with almost a deity-esque experience where it's, I'll call it charity. It's God-like love. And so here's what we're saying is we're in this together and we are each other's great gift. And that's what Paul is talking about. So ought men love their wives that they never become better. Their pleasure, their flesh never becomes greater than the need of their gift, their spouse. Paul was probably right there on the sidelines when D&C section 132 was revealed, talking about how this is going to work when you enter into a covenant, husband and wife,

and with God, this wonderful triad experience. You're not going to be saved without that spouse. So you better start working on having faith in God who's asking you to do something that's more than you thought it was all you need to give your all not knowing what all is and then all of a sudden in that marriage you have children and that changes the dynamic and then you work through it oh I'll be the best dad ever I'm going to be the best mom on the planet when my children get older they'll want to double date with us because we're so fun you know or whatever and stuff like that and we have these imaginations what's going to be like.

And then you forget about the sleepless nights and then the worry, even when they are grown and they are married and the concept of godliness continues. It's really a beautiful thing. And sadly, sometimes what happens is this wonderful section in five, which he calls a mystery, is really coming down and saying, look, you are, well, look at chapter five, verse eight, for you were sometimes darkness, but now ye are light in the Lord. Then I love his admonition. Walk then as children of light. Stop embracing doubt. Stop walking the darkness. Ye have the light. Have faith. You're going to be okay. Watch prophets, seers,

and revelators. Paul calls this a great mystery, but it's a mystery that's known. That's what faith looks like. Walk as children of light. Well said, John. Well, what does Jesus say earlier? How do you know people? How do you know the children of God? How do you know if they're children of God? By their fruits, ye shall know them. Oh, well, I have to be perfect all the time. No, you need to be the children of light. And what do children of light do? They do their best to stay in the light. I look at covenants and covenants have so much to do with this. And in the Hebrew, you look at one of the forms of covenants when they talk about covenants comes from beritu. And it's the same word for to fetter so a covenant fetters

that's the same word that we use as hobbling are you familiar with like hobbling horses you know if you hobble a horse you tie the back leg with the front leg so they can still move around and graze and get around but they can't run and sprint off and they it keeps them close think about that in kind of in a way with covenants what What do covenants do? It's not that they restrict us and they hold us back, but what they do is they hobble us. They fetter us in a way so that we still have our freedom. We can wander, we can go into places we want to graze and stuff, but hopefully what a covenant does is it keeps you close enough that you're never too far from the arm of the Lord. A covenant will keep you close. When family and loved ones wander, hopefully if they are covenant

and we keep our covenants and we exercise faith and we heed to the economy of where fullness will come, meaning prophets, seers, and revelators, so that we know how to get through these mysterious, difficult times with family members that are departing, spouses. We all have a whole different set of cards that have been dealt to us, but it's how we play our hand that becomes different. And the covenant, we should never, in my opinion, never weary in having faith in the covenant because it's, if I understand it correctly, it's keeping us close enough that we can always be redeemed. What is our role? Keep those that you love that

are under covenants close to you as well. Don't sell the farm. Don't give up. Well, how do I do that? I've tried everything. Oh, well, how about prophets, seers, and revelators? Have they spoken about this? I have Joseph Fielding McConkie echoing in my mind when I was reading Ephesians. And he just said once, we read scriptures too fast. And I really had to slow down to read Ephesians. But what you're talking about in marriage here here when I read 25 and I slow down husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it

that's beautiful and there's so much meaning in there what you were talking about reverence I thought boy that's such a good point because what do we say in primary? Be reverent. And what do we mean? Fold your arms. Don't talk. When you do the first two syllables, revere, I was like, oh, that's good. I cherish my wife. I revere my wife. I hope we have that for each other. And if we slow down a little bit, and as you said, take all of these scriptures and put them together when we're talking about what this means about submitting and so forth. And you'll see this much bigger, more beautiful pictures. Thank you for that. I was reading some of the other translations of Ephesians 4, and I noticed this in the

New Living Translation and in a couple other translations of Ephesians 4, verse 11. Listen to the New Living Translation. Now, these are the gifts Christ gave to the church, the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors, and the teachers. And there's some other translations that refer to this as not just he gave some, he gave them as a gift. And it reminded me of Mosiah 8. Ammon, not the missionary Ammon, but the first Ammon, is teaching the people of Limhi about prophets, seers, and revelators. He's talking about King Mosiah.

And he says, and the king and he are going back and forth. And then this is what Ammon says. He says, by a prophet, God has provided a means that man through faith might work mighty miracles. Therefore he, I think he means the prophet, the seer, the revelator, becometh a great benefit to his fellow beings. And as I was thinking about President Nelson when he turned 99, I was thinking about him, what a gift he is and what a great benefit he has been. Just one paragraph from a talk six months ago called Peacemakers Needed. President Nelson, my dear brothers and sisters, how we treat each other really matters. How we speak to and about others at home, at church,

at work, and online really matters. Today, I am asking us to interact with others in a higher, holier way. Please listen carefully. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy that we can say about another person, whether to his face or behind her back, that should be our standard of communication. That's just one paragraph of how many talks has President Nelson given us in the last six years and then even previous to that as an apostle. He has been a gift, a great benefit. Little phrases like, hear him and let god prevail oh man i find myself going back to those with my come on back up let's learn to hear him and let's let god prevail and what a gift what i'm feeling listening to speak is you're speaking really efficient. You're in a situation of saying, this is what Paul is

saying, or Pauline, you know, is in a circumstances, listen to this situation of what's taking place is I'm going to tell you the great mysteries where people are stumbling and falling. And I'm going to tell you them through the economy, the dispensation, the economy that will bring about the fullness of times. And that's going to be prophets, seers, and revelators. A long time ago, I had the opportunity to serve on a committee where we were doing media at BYU and I'd go up and, and the director of this committee meeting was president Nelson. So we would meet, we would go through the different things for BYU broadcasting, et cetera.

And I learned an interesting lesson through that one is president Nelson is so sharp. He doesn't miss a beat. He could catch a typo on footnote three on page seven, just like that. And he's always so kind, but he was always about accurate. The only reason I bring that up is he is a man of great detail. My interpretation of this one, when he uses words, I don't think he minces words. I think he uses words on purpose and he's very precise. So when you have a prophet, seer, and revelator that's talking like Hank when you're reading those things, my goodness, we should pay attention to those words. John, what you said may be beneficial. Read more slowly and contemplate why the choice of those words.

And when you look at chapter three in Ephesians, and they're talking about the great mystery of Gentiles coming into the church, which by the way, is delivered by a voice who struggled with that concept before his conversion, meaning Saul. Right. Sometimes we forget about this.

Is this eating crow, so to speak, or not for Paul? He's doing everything to have his voice right. But it's interesting when you go back and saying, oh yeah, this was a pretty big concept for Saul. And now he is forging ahead and often refers to himself as the apostles among the Gentiles. He truly has become a new creature. Well said. And does that have merit at least to think about? Yes. Yes, I think it does. As he's embracing this, he's talking to other fellow converts who are, John, as you pointed out in the very beginning, in an environment where people are suspicious of converts, they are angry at converts, they are really, they're bigots.

All of these things are in play. And one of the great mysteries is, here we go, come on, and he calls them aliens in verse 12. He says, they without Christ being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise. But the next thing you know, all of a sudden he's saying, hey, look, when it comes down to it, you are no more foreigners and you are no more strangers, but you're one unified in the household of faith and of God. So how is that going to happen? Because even within the household of God, we do have prejudice and we do have personal bias and we are still wrestling. And so I think what you're

bringing up is right. So maybe we should do what Paul taught the Ephesians is, okay, so what do we do? It's a mystery. How do we join together with such diversity? And what do we do with immigrants? And what do we do with, you name it, you name it, the diverse world that we live in and building upon what you said, Hank, my dear brothers and sisters, this is President Nielsen, how we treat each other really matters. Now that's not a grandpa just saying, Hey, I've learned in all my years that we should be nice to each other. That's a prophet of God. That sounds a little mysterious and you're talking magic now. Yeah, we are. We're talking miracles. And then he's going, I'm asking us to interact with others in a higher, holier way. The gospel net, he goes on, is the largest net in the world. God has invited

all to come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female. There is room for everyone. However, there is no room for prejudice, condemnation, or contention of any kind. That's April Conference 2023. Now, does that sound like Paul writing to the Ephesians of the great mystery of not just how did the Gentiles get accepted into the household of the faith? That was one of the great mysteries. By the way, the only way that came about was revelation. It came through revelation, and you started to see Peter working on that. And it was hard, but it was also hard for all the saints to be able to say time to shift because our mysteries, our secrets are revealed. Now, what do we do about it?

Oh, same old, same old. No, no, there is no room for prejudice. They are our brothers and sisters. We must, here we go, change. And we must become new creatures when it comes to prejudice and bias. And we must become like Christ who just revealed through his prophets, seers, and revelators that we accept all of his children because that is what he has done. Here we have a prophet of God just in April, almost giving a sermon of the great mysteries of having the household of faith where we no longer have foreigners and we

don't have strangers. The Ephesians, what was happening is we should like this book because it's our book in a way. It's principally, it's going on. And you just go through President Nelson alone in just his conference talks or his major addresses that are published. And you look at the concepts of what he's doing. And John, you pointed out, he's teaching some powerful principles that are easy to remember, not that easy to do unless we heed prophets, seers, and revelators. Please join us for part two of this podcast.