followHIM - Exodus 14-17 -- Part 2 : Dr. Matthew Bowen

Episode Date: April 3, 2022

Dr. Bowen returns and teaches about trusting in the Lord, how manna reminds us of our covenants and spiritual needs, and the importance of remembering the Lord’s hand in our lives.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers/SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Transcripts/Language Team/French TranscriptsAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. Matt, are we ready to move on? Because I'm just interested in this idea of we've had this incredible experience and you might have a tendency to think nothing's ever going to be hard again, right? Never, never doubt. And then you take a drink of water and you go, this is bitter. Yeah. Do you remember how you felt when you're baptized? After I was baptized, even when I was eight, I felt really, really good. We've really repented and we feel the Holy Ghost. We just don't ever want to do a bad thing in our lives ever again. But then 10 minutes later, something happens.

You get mad at your sister or your roommate or you're you have a misunderstanding with your spouse and then the balloons popped in your breath back down to reality i was just thinking here you know star wars the episode four ends on just this tremendous high note and then movie empire strikes back shows that they're right back in it and it's kind of like that in our lives the opposition is is going to be with us in one way or another till the end of our lives. You have this wonderful moment in the waters of Mormon with Alma, but then Amulon is out there circling in the wilderness and pretty soon he's going to find you, put you in bondage. I think life has its verse 22s. Moses brought the children of Israel from the Red Sea.

They went out into the wilderness and they went three days in the wilderness and found no water. Like life has all of a sudden things go blah and it's not so fun. By the way, since you brought up Amulon, talks about Amulon in the taskmasters, Mosiah 23 or 24, that language is specifically taken from the Exodus. Yeah, it sounds like the Egyptian Taskmasters. It is. And Mormon is deliberately trying to draw that comparison so that the redemption of Alma the Elder and his people is like, it's a replication of history.

For ancient Israel, history wasn't just one linear thing. It was circular. Like a cycle, yeah. Like one eternal rest playing out again in Mosiah 23 and 24 with the redemption of Alma, the elder, and his people. Oh, it absolutely is. Matt, I'm dying. This is not fair.

This is a new redemption story. That's what I like about this is because when the rising generation has trouble, the angel doesn't have to say, arise and remember Moses. He says, arise and remember the captivity of thy fathers. All of a sudden, it is very recent for them. And that's why I like that they have a new, in the Book of Mormon, their own deliverance story. It's great to remember back to Moses, but now they have their own. And remember the captivity of thy fathers in the land of Hewitt.

We talk about the new and everlasting covenant being new and everlasting. We have to connect to the most recent stories too. We were just talking about the experiences of the pioneers. Brigham Young, yeah. You know, that they were in a captivity of sorts. They were in circumstances that they definitely hadn't chosen and that they needed to be delivered from. This is Mosiah 24, 17. The Lord said to Alma, thou shalt go before this people and I will go with thee and deliver this people out of bondage. That is, that's Moses language.

It says when they get out in the valley of Alma, they poured out their thanks to God. Just like Exodus 15. Songs of redeeming love. Their men and all their women and their children lifted up their voices in praises of God. There's your Exodus 14 and 15 right there. And I think that's what Alma the Younger is asking the members of the church in Zarahemla to remember, because some of them had been there. Some of them, this was still living memory for them that, can you remember, even in our own history, when the saints got out to the valley and they tilled the desert and made it bloom and all of that. But you read some of the stories in church history, Brigham Young was really worried that the saints, his greatest worry was that they would get rich and kick themselves out of the church.

Right. I love that. This people will stand robbing, mobbing persecution and remain true. But my greater fears that they cannot stand wealth. I share that my class and his, how many of you woke up in the middle of the night with this horrible nightmare that you became rich? Oh, I'm so glad I woke up.

That was awful. Suddenly I had all the money I needed. That was terrible. That's when I'm like president Kimball, Lord, give me this mountain, right? Lord, give me this the money I needed. That was terrible. That's when I'm like President Kimball. Lord, give me this mountain, right? Lord, give me this difficulty. I'll take on that trial.

If I were a rich man. Yeah. So far, we've channeled Thrill on the Roof and Star Wars. We're doing pretty well here. So they've had this incredible experience, and now they're pretty thirsty. They go to drink the waters of, what is it, Mara? Mara, yep. Uh-huh. So they've had this incredible experience and now they're pretty thirsty. They go to drink the waters of, what is it, Marah? Marah, yep.

Uh-huh. And they're bitter. Verse 23. And that becomes the basis for the naming of the place. You know, Marah. People murmured, what shall we drink? Is there a Hebrew meaning to that word? Yeah, Marah means bitterness. And you remember Naomi in the book of Ruth?

Naomi is a name that means pleasant or sweet. And then she says, you know, with what's happened to her, she says, you know, call me marah. Bitter. The opposite. In verse 25 when it says,

and he cried unto the Lord, and the Lord showed him. The word in Hebrew there is actually like, and it's the same word where you get the word Torah or Yara means to teach by pointing the finger. The Lord pointed him to, it's either a tree or a piece of wood. It can, it might not be an entire tree because he has to throw it in the water, cast it into the water and the waters were made sweet. And it's interesting because it points, the episode will explain the meanings behind the names of these different places where they'll travel in their journey. We should go to the manna. So again, we got murmuring again. That's got to be the Lord.

Oh, here we got murmuring got, we got murmuring again. We got murmuring. The whole congregation of the children of Israel murmured against the Moses and Aaron in the wilderness. And the children of Israel said unto them, here we go again, to God, we had died by the hand of the Lord in the land of Egypt. And here's the misremembering,

right? When we sat by the flesh pots and when we did eat bread to the full, when the circumstances aren't ideal, or even when we're immersed in sin, we can sometimes remember the past. I think Joe Spencer's talked about this, that sin misremembers the past. So they're misremembering this whole thing. We did eat bread to the full. Wait, weren't you guys in bondage? Yeah. This wasn't a trip down to the cafeteria at Evelman Halls, you know, where they could eat anything they wanted. I mean, they're misremembering the past. And so, I think it's

interesting that the Lord proposes here is going to teach them. Then the Lord said unto Moses, behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you. And note, there's a Christological type there that the Savior himself in John 6 and that wonderful bread of life sermon that he's really tapped into. And the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day and that I may prove them or test them whether they will walk in my law or no. I'll skip to verse six. And Moses said unto all the children of Israel at even,

then shall you know that the Lord hath brought you out of the land of Egypt. They need to be reminded of that. Yeah, already. Already. There's not a huge time that's elapsed here. It helps us appreciate that miracles, even big miracles can have a short shelf life in terms of our memory. We'll connect this to the sacrament, right? That's one of the reasons people in other

faiths wonder why we have the sacrament so often, weekly. Oh, gosh, I'm so thankful we do. I am too, because we have to be put in remembrance at least that often. When we remember Christ and we covenant our willingness to remember him, we're not just remembering him and his atoning sacrifice. We're also remembering all the other acts of deliverance, great and small, and all of the other miracles in our lives. And we need to be put in remembrance of that constantly. And this would have been putting them in remembrance of that every day. Yeah, daily.

And twice on Fridays before the Sabbath. This is great stuff. It's difficult to become converted to daily scripture study or daily prayer. But once you are and you realize the blessings of that daily habit or that daily reminder, it really is quite a wonderful experience. And Hank, I love how the Lord connects this to food. Just yesterday, I was teaching, blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness. And I thought, have you ever in your life said, you know, I don't think I've had a thing to eat since Thursday. You don't forget to eat for four or five days, but you might forget to take in some spiritual food for that long.

That's why I love the daily part of this. I'll ask my students that. How many of you have ever fasted for a day? And everybody's hands up. Then you say, how many of you fasted for two days or three? And then the hands drop down pretty quickly. Then I'll say, how many of you have gone for more than a week without reading your scriptures? I don't tell them to put their hands up, but they get the point.

Our bodies remind us really quickly, feed me, feed me, feed me. But our spirits aren't quite that way. We have to take thought for their nourishment. There has to be more intentionality and purpose in that nourishment. How often do hunger and thirst need to be addressed? I like to ask them. Well, pretty much daily. Do you ever get to the point where you're like, well, I guess I've eaten enough in this

life. Are you ever done hungering and thirsting? No, never. Spiritually speaking, I love to try to make that connection. I should live up to it myself, but I love that idea of of his success in life is he says, because I just have that daily habit. I was also thinking of Enos, my soul hungered, my soul hungered, not my body hungered, my soul. Yeah, that's good. And that's connects to the sacrament prayer that connects to, to the souls of all those who partake of it. The word nefesh, we talked about that a minute ago, and the nefesh had a reference to not only a person's soul,

it was the idea of the entryway, the throat, and it was the word that they had for appetite. And in the sacrament prayers, it's not talking about our physical appetites, because nobody is going to, except maybe on Fast Sunday, nobody's going to get except maybe on Fast Sunday, nobody's going to get, you know, satisfied by one piece of bread and a cup of water. But we're talking about our spiritual appetite. We're really being focused on that in the ordinance. I've never made that connection between Enos, my soul hungered and the sacrament to the souls of

all those who partake of it. You're showing me things I've never seen before. And I love it. John, you probably already made all these connections. You're like, oh, no, not at all. I am right there with you. And do you know what I keep thinking of is when at the end of Jesus's visit in the new world, when he says, and it says he expounded all the scriptures in one, I thought, how do you get a ticket to that?

Because somehow I bet he connected everything they had to everything else they had. And I think that's kind of what we're getting a taste of today. Thank you, Matt. You're connecting the Old Testament, the Book of Mormon in wonderful ways. Oh, in wonderful ways. And the New Testament. I wrote down your quote with the murmuring of chapter 13. Here we go again,

because I mean, there's a lot of murmuring in verses seven, eight and nine. I mean, he hears your murmurings against the Lord. And then there's more in verse 12. He has to send quail. The quail miracles are,

I think they're funny in Utah. You see this because they're around the quails are and you see it in the the miracles they kind of come crashing in to the camp and have you ever watched quails it takes them so long to react to recovering they're not the the swiftest on the uptake at all. So you can kind of see how that works. So the Lord made it so easy for them. I won't send hummingbirds. I'll send quail.

They do, Matt. I've never noticed that, but we have a bunch around here and on the road, it's almost like you're going to hit them before they run out of the way. Yeah. Come on, guys. Come on, move. I ate quail once and it's really nothing to write home about. I mean, it's, you know, that's like chicken joke.

Yeah. It kind of makes me feel grateful. I have heard the murmurings. He even hears that. It doesn't say I have obtained noise canceling headphones, but he's even heard the murmurings and he responded. Wow. Now, what is the word murmur?

I mean, do we know much about that word? Because obviously Nephi uses it to describe his brothers. Yeah, I think I'm trying to remember. Lawan, I think, is one of the verbs that's used, I think. And I think that there's another one. Grumble, complain. Grumble. Grumble. He's like, I've heard your stomachs and your mouths.

My mouth is murmuring and my stomach is grumbling. Well, you mentioned John 6. Can you tie these together for us? Because I think it's so cool the way the Lord does it in John 6. It says your father's ate manna in the wilderness and are dead. But then he says, I am that bread from heaven. The type, it's like this with the brazen serpent miracle and a number of the other types that we read about in the Pentateuch,

in these stories. It's not the type itself that's the thing. From Lehi and their family in the wilderness, it wasn't the liahona itself that's the thing from lehi and their family in the wilderness it wasn't the liahona itself that was the thing if you don't get to what the type is pointing to you remember there's a couple times where this connection is made and jacob makes it in jacob 4 amulek makes it in alma 34 that the law was pointing their souls to him. It pointing our souls to him. Every wit pointing to that great and last sacrifice, the types can get in the way if the deeper spiritual understanding isn't understood.

And it's that way even with the sacrament, too. When you're really young as a kid, you're just excited about the bread and water coming around. You're not thinking much about what it means. Even there, if we're not careful, the symbol gets in the way of what is symbolized if we're not thinking and we're not looking to Christ. And that verb is associated with both the miracle of the brazen serpent and the liahona in the Book of Mormon. The looking to him, seeing him, looking upon him in faith. Tell us the meaning of the word manna. Yeah, that one's an interesting.

Manna is the spelling that comes out of the Greek Septuagint. That's the Greek translation that was later made of the Hebrew Bible. In Hebrew, it's just man. and there's a play on words going they called it man who or and it can mean two things it can mean what is it or the statement can mean it is man and there's an arabic word actually man that refers to the tamarisk man of the sinai peninsula that word means like thin or fine and that's how the the manna was yeah there's a play on words going on in the story here you know what is it or it is man sorry it can either be taken as a question or a statement but the question might make better sense in the context of the story.

And there are other Semitic languages in which man is used as a word asking a question. For your children. Okay, have your bowl of that. Well, what is it? Right. Exactly. What is it, mom? Right.

And the Lord wants them. He says, I want you to do this daily, except for the day before the Sabbath. You're going to gather twice as much. And it seems like they have a hard time keeping all the instructions. Look at verse 20. Notwithstanding, they hearken not unto Moses, but some of them left it till the morning and it bred worms and stank and Moses was wroth with them. They seem to figure it out though, that this is how- That it's a daily thing. It's a daily thing. This is how it's going to work. Elder Christofferson, he's got a series of videos where he talks about the daily bread and what that means for us. I really love them. I recommend them.

The Lord is patient with them. He's giving them bread day to day. And one of the things that Elder Christofferson said was that because the Lord's showing such patience with them and with us, we also shouldn't expect immediate deliverance from problems or just immediate solutions to things. The Lord doesn't expect immediate perfection from us either. But day by day, increment, that's another thing that the manna can symbolize for us. And the sacrament too. Daily, incremental, gradual improvement. The Lord's not expecting perfection from us, and we shouldn't expect instant gratification of our desires from Him.

That's really great. I'm thinking of Matthew 5 in the Lord's Prayer. Give us this, our daily bread, like this incremental. I understand the idea of my relationship with you is incremental. It's day by day. And just that the Lord would use that as a metaphor for himself as I am that daily bread. I'm the John 6. I am the manna that came down from heaven.

And the manna that they said, are you going to be like Moses? And he's like, Moses didn't give you the manna. I gave you the manna. Some of them were really grossed out because they thought. How can this man give us his flesh? They think he's talking about corpse consumption and things that were just completely against the law of Moses. And they failed to really tune in to what was beyond a symbol. Right. It was him. Well, this is a hard saying. His apostles come

up and say, what are you doing? And many leave after that, right? That's John 6, 66, is many from that time forth walked no more with him. Well, and as Matt said before, where are you going to go? Where else would we go? What else is out there if you're trying to convince people against the truth? Well, what have you got to offer? They can offer the, I guess, Esau's bowl of lentil soup, which, you know, lentil soup, if you've had it, I mean, it's decent. I don't think lentil soup is anybody's favorite food. But in the end, I mean, Esau exchanges the eternal blessings of the Abrahamic covenant for a bowl of soup. All that the father has, who the father is, his essential life and character for a bowl of soup. Jewish rabbis have drawn attention to that, the exchanging of eternal things for more or less bowls of soup in the world. I've noticed right at the end of 16 that Moses has Aaron make a kind of a memorial bowl. This pot of bread is going to be something that to remember so it's like an item that is used to remind me one of three witnesses that will go into the ark of the covenant

aaron's rod will be another one of those when we get down the line the tablets of the commandment which will be forthcoming also later in Exodus. And then here's that first witness. It's the omer of manna from what they're experiencing now. It's the first witness to them. I got to tell you, this has been fantastic so far. Okay, let's go to chapter 17. Again, murmuring, right?

Verse 2, Wherefore the people that chide with Moses and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? Wherefore do ye tempt the Lord? And the people thirsted for water, and the people murmured against Moses and said,

Wherefore is that thou hast brought us up out of Egypt? Again, here's the theme. You've brought us out here just to kill us, to kill us and our children and our cattle with thirst. The miracles have a short shelf life. And that was another lesson from the Book of Mormon, right? Laman and Lemuel saw some of these types of miracles. They heard the voice of the Lord.

They saw an angel. Unless you're remembering constantly, we've been talking about daily bread, weekly partaking of the sacrament, They saw an angel. kept them in the path of their duty. The law of Moses was designed to do that with its types and rituals and everything so that you would be constantly thinking about the Lord. And King Benjamin talks about having the law constantly before their eyes. And that was the goal of the phylacteries too, you remember, even putting scriptures in boxes on the forehead and on the wrist, so it's just always there. Bind the law to your head.

And so Moses, you know, I think he's fearing for his life at this point. He says, and Moses cried unto the Lord saying, what shall I do unto this people? They'd be almost ready to stone me. They're going to kill me. They crossed through the Red Sea. I fed them every day and they're about ready to kill me. So they're not singing. We thank thee, oh God, for a prophet. For a prophet.

Yeah. And the Lord said unto Moses, go on before the people and take with thee of the elders of Israel and thy rod, wherewith thou smotest the river, and take in thine hand and go. And again, we talked about how Nephi would have understood what's happening here in terms of the rod and the word. Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb. So this is very near Sinai and thou shalt smite the rock and there shall come water out of it that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel. And then you get an explanation of the naming of the places here. And he called the name of the place Masa and Meribah because of the chiding of Israel. And because they tempted the Lord saying,

is the Lord among us or not? Those places, Masa means testing, you know, place of testing or testing ground or something like that. And Meribah means contention. So, they're testing the Lord and they're contending with the Lord. And so, that'll be memorialized in these place names. So, don't name your children Meribah. Meher Shalal Hashbaz is probably not going to be on anyone's short list of baby names. Destruction is imminent. Yeah, destruction is imminent. Although you think about it, it is a good appropriate name for a toddler. When Isaiah's wife heard that, like, oh oh no what type of child is coming you can imagine her

not saying anything but just raising her eyebrows looking at him like where's this going can i name the next one what was sheer jayshab the other what was that meant a remnant shall return right yashub is a remnant shall return and that one's you know that's actually connected to the exodus too that ties into that passage in isaiah that we were talking about in isaiah 51 the redeemed would be able to return to zion with songs of everlasting joy on their heads so there's the in the name there's the judgment there's remnant implies that there was a you know divine justice overtook them at some point but then there's also implied mercy you know that the remnant then will repent and return or

come back so he smites the rock and the water comes out what am i supposed to see here this is something that i think isaiah alludes to, that he led them to the desert and they thirsted not. You know, for Lehi and his family, I wonder what this would have meant, you know, the being led in the more fertile parts of the wilderness where there was game, where there was food, but also water sources where they could drink. When we think about that, you know, again, typologically, like we talked about the way, the journey, it's not easy. The Lord provides. And that's that same, you know, back to 1 Nephi 17, he said that he would be their light in the wilderness. And he said, I'll prepare the way before you. And so I think this is a part of that. This is a part of him giving us a way. In fact, the meaning of the idiom prepare the way means to clear the way. It means to take the obstacles out of the way. Thirst would be an obstacle. Well, I think about a modern application of this would be life got really hard for me and I don't see a way. We're in the middle of the

desert here. I don't see a way that I'm going to survive this. And the Lord's, you are going to survive. I'm going to provide a way. And it's going to come from an unlikely place. Smite the rock. Can I bring up another movie? Please do. George Bailey and It's a Wonderful Life. Show me the way, Lord. I'm not a praying man, but show me the way. You could probably do an impression, couldn't you, John?

I'm not a praying man, but it'll happen to have $8,000, do you? I've loved that scene. Show me the way. I love that, John, that idea. I love it. And I love the answers to prayers come from a place where you just wouldn't think it would come from. Unlikely sources. You get a place you didn't think was going to be a blessing, and it ends up being a blessing. You know, I think most of the listeners will have experiences like this when they think about it.

People who stepped into their lives at different times in different ways and helped shape their lives and maybe helped open a door for them where there there wasn't a way forward before well i think amulet is a perfect example of that what you just mentioned for alma you remember in alma 8 he went in there the first time and into almanai ha and had a really rough experience he's ready to you know walk away from the situation but then and i've always loved this that the lord sent him the very angel that had stopped him in the way before you talk about a tender mercy in terms of helping alma know that he was you know in good standing with the lord at this point for all of his efforts.

And then the angel sends him back, and I'm sure it was the same angel who appeared to Amulek. I'm so glad that Mormon chose to include that sentence. Behold, I am he that delivered it unto you. It's like, that was me. Do you remember me? I scared you so bad back then, but you're doing so well now. Never heard anybody say this, but I'd love to believe that angel is Abinadi. I just think that would be cool if that were Abinadi.

I do too. That was watching that family that Alma the elder defended. And now he's talking to Alma the younger and saying, you know, you're doing great. Ever since I knocked you flat in Mosiah 27. Maybe we should change the primary song. I know the Lord provides an unlikely way, right? He wants me to obey. Something that I probably won't see coming.

I was thinking about this idea of holding up Moses' arms and thinking about a contrasting, don't steady the ark. But here is a help Moses by holding up his arms when they were fighting with Amalek, not to be confused with the Amulek we've just been talking about in the Book of Mormon. This is sustaining in the most literal sense of the word. Sustain comes from a Latin word that means to hold, tenere, and sub from below. To hold from below. Yeah, I mean, that's what they're doing. This is, I think, crucial to Joshua's growth and his role later that he'll fill with the Lord when he is Moses' successor. But him and her, you know, being there on the right and the left of Moses, anybody who served in the church in a capacity as a bishop or a quorum president

or a Relief Society president or primary president, you're incredibly grateful for counselors, especially counselors when they step in and they sometimes really do this. And in the same token, if you're in that kind of position and you have counselors who jump ship and don't help very much, it can leave the bishop or the president it can feel pretty lonely if they don't have the support the footnote has grew heavy with weariness that sounds kind of yeah if you're alone you're grow heavy that's a great application for that when i was called to be bishop and had i don't know a week or two to find counselors when those counselors accepted oh this the heaviness and weariness was was decreased i knew i had

counselors now that had agreed to to do this and okay maybe with these two guys i can do this and it's not just counselors as well. We all sustain. We all sustain. I heard it called once the covenant of common consent, and that was my favorite way to hear it called, that it wasn't just that this isn't sustaining. That is signifying that you will sustain, which is an ongoing covenant. With a covenant hand, right? There's our right hand again. Yep. We sustain President Nelson and the First Presidency and the Twelve when we support their prophetic initiatives. If we are pulling the children of Israel on them and we're...

Almost ready to stone me. Yeah, and if we're mentally, if not literally, stoning the prophets, I've been amazed, and if I can speak plainly here, at social media over the course of the last few years, people who profess to be active members of the church are willing to say about the prophet and the first presidency and the twelve, the kinds of things that they're willing to say. And I've even seen people say that they, to the effect that they wish that the president of the church would die or that they wouldn't shed a tear. And you cannot say that you are sustaining the prophet in any meaningful sense if you harbor those types of attitudes.

Know that one of the best things that we can do for ourselves spiritually is to get a testimony of the Savior and that He calls living prophets and that we can get a testimony that they are guided from the Lord. And I do not say that to imply infallibility. That's not a word that we use in connection with mortal human beings, other than the Savior himself. He's the one we would say is infallible. But we do receive his word with patience, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself. And if we can learn to do that, I think we, because when we murmur and complain, like we've been reading about in these chapters, the one that we're really hurting is

first ourselves. And we can also damage the faith of our children and their ability to receive the word of the Lord through the prophet in patience and faith. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave this talk years ago called A Prayer for the Children, I think. And he said that we can't flirt with cynicism and skepticism and then not expect our children to turn that flirtation into full-blown romance. Exactly right. Amazing talk, A Prayer for the Children. That verse 17, four, the people be almost ready to stone me i think we have seen a little bit of that i just wrote in my margin people who are

attacked on social media going big look well look what they're doing stoning you on social media and then this idea of sustain i'll hold you up from below. So sustaining isn't just not stoning Moses, right? I sustain him. I haven't thrown any stones. I haven't complained. I haven't posted anything. Are you actively holding him up? I think President Nelson, I hope I'm right on this. He said it's also upholding their prophetic priorities. We're willing to honor, not only them, but honor what they counseled and they've decided on behalf of where the saints need to go, that we uphold that and not dig in our heels. The chiding there, that's the contending.

That's not going to facilitate having the presence of the Holy Ghost in our lives so that we have that voice behind us saying, this is the way, walk in it, the way Isaiah describes. We can't have that kind of revelation that we need if we're digging in our heels at this, whatever comes from the prophet at every turn. Pete Man, Matt, that's beautiful. And I like how the Lord is preparing Joshua here. Write this in the book and make sure Joshua writes this down because he's going to need this. He's going to need this.

Elder Maxwell gave a talk called Murmur Not in October of 1989. And he said, murmurers have short memories. Israel arrived in Sinai, then journeyed onto the Holy Land, though they were sometimes hungry and thirsty, but the Lord rescued them, whether by the miraculous appearance by quail or by water struck from a rock. Strange, isn't it, brothers and sisters, how those with the shortest memories have the longest lists of demands. However, with no remembrance of past blessings, there's no perspective about what is really going on. This powerful verse in the Old Testament reminds us of what is really going on.

And then he quotes Deuteronomy 8.2, and thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these 40 years in the wilderness to humble thee and to prove thee and to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldst keep his commandments or no. That's good stuff. Murmurs have short memories, but a long list of demands. A long list of demands. Wow. That ties together a lot of things that we've been talking about today. It does.

Very nice. So we've got the commandment to get it in writing. Then there's that last bit about the Amalekites that they'll come back very famously in 1 Samuel 15, you remember, with Saul. This kind of leads to the end of his kingship and the Lord's rejection of him. So, maybe not too much more to say there. That name of the altar that's built, Jehovah Nisi, that word nes is a word that can mean enzyme or standard or banner. It's the word that we're going to see later with the brazen serpent in Numbers 21

when Moses puts a serpent on the pole. It's also the same word that Isaiah uses when he talks about lifting up a enzyme to the nations and the standard. That's a really important word for Isaiah. So in Isaiah 2? Yeah, in fact, he uses a theme. If you ever want a fun exercise, go through every instance where Isaiah uses the words

enzyme, standard, or banner. It's kind of fun. I did not realize how heavily Isaiah leans on the books of Moses. There's a lot of Exodus imagery in Isaiah. So great. Matt, this has been fantastic today. Really just a lot of fun. I feel like I've just opened up new rooms in my own house. How long has that been there? And I've never seen it. I think our listeners, one, are grateful for you. And then two, I think they'd love to hear a little bit of your journey as a Bible scholar and a Latter-day Saint. How did those come together for you? I'm going to share some weird stuff that I don't think I've ever shared publicly.

My mom will remember this. I was just really into the scriptures at a very young age. In fact, I would even write my own. You know, I would write them. This is at five or six, just imitating biblical language. So I guess that should have been a sign that this was all on the way. My mother did something that just really has served me well, set me up for good things. She read the Book of Mormon with me around the time of my baptism. She read through it with me twice. in Judaism of taking Torah scroll or parchment and putting honey on it, letting the children put that on their tongue. And it helps them. It's the idea of making the word of the Lord sweet unto them. You'll remember that passage in Jeremiah, thy words were found and I did eat them.

Joy and rejoicing of my heart, eating the word and having it be sweet. I went through a period of time where I really struggled as a teenager in terms of activity and faith. And I just was, I had a testimony that the church was true, but I just kind of lost my orientation to the gospel in a lot of ways. And I didn't really find it until I was 18, almost 19, and really coming into mission age. And then some really awesome things happened during that period of time in my life that really kind of, I had experiences that showed me that the Lord really knew who I was. And I mean, unmistakably knew who I was and what direction he wanted me to go. In fact, I'll never forget, I'd been praying about whether to serve a mission and how that answer came and

when it came. And it was one of the most distinct answers to prayer I've ever received. And it was not something I conjured for myself because I didn't want to serve a mission at first. But when the answer came and it came, it was like my entire body was filled with light from the crown of my head and then working down to the soles of my feet. And I comprehended with every aspect of who I am, what I needed to do. And it helped make the decision to go serve. And I went and served in the California Roseville Mission and had experiences there that gave me the first inklings that I would need to study some ancient languages.

And I let somebody talk me out of it when I got home because I can't make any money doing that. But eventually, the Lord brought me right back around to that. I was, I think, a late bloomer. I was 26 by the time I graduated from BYU and Provo. And I was 31 by the time I got into the graduate program that I wanted to be at the Catholic University of America. By the way, I, no, no pun intended. I met my wife, Susie. This was six weeks, maybe, after I got out to Washington, D.C. How you escape Utah Valley is single, you know, after being there most of my life. I managed to do it. But I met Susie right after that.

And then we started our family and the blessings just came. I think that's part of a big part of my testimony is I saw the miracles along the way. Unmistakable that helped me, the open, helped me get to where I needed to go. And even when disaster struck, I mean, my wife, after our second son, Nathan, was born, he was born by a placenta abruption about 15 weeks early, almost, not quite 25 weeks. And he lived 33 days. And even then, there wasn't a miraculous healing and in giving us the outcome that we all hoped for and wanted but even in that we saw so many miracles from the very beginning to the very end and and afterwards we saw miracles things things I could talk, you know, and go into a lot greater depth.

But those miracles showed us proof positive that the Lord knew our family. He knew us individually. He knew what we needed. He helped us get to Hawaii, helped me finish writing a lengthy dissertation of 500 plus pages. You know what that's like. And it's, you know, that's like and it's you know it's just miracle after miracle and then the miracle that i mentioned earlier today of being able to stay here in hawaii and raise our family here you know even in the the great blessings and even in the trials

has just been one testimony after another to me of the goodness of God. I know that He knows me. I only get really disappointed when I know that my performance could better measure up to the blessings that He's given me. But even then, I know, like Nephi, I know in whom I've trusted. And I know I'm just going to pick myself back up and keep trying and keep fighting and keep moving forward. And the world today, like we're all experiencing, we've all been through a lot with COVID. We're seeing a lot now happening with the world being in commotion with what's going on in Ukraine. And I just know that through it all, it is all in his hands. Our time here is going to be not that long in the grand scheme of things,

but I think we really will be grateful for all of the relationships that we've developed. The Lord's goodness has been really manifested to me there in wonderful ways. I couldn't have done anything that I've done without the help of a lot of people in helping me and shaping me in ways great and small and being instruments and empowering me to do the things that I've done. That's something I'm grateful for every day, those types of blessings. I would just close with a testimony of Jesus, that I know that He lives,

and I know that He atoned for me, that He atoned for all humankind, and that He is the way, the truth, and the life. He can show us the way because He is the way. That truth, and the life. He can show us the way because He is the way. That atonement is real. And one day we're going to know it even better than we know now. And the proofs will be unmistakable. We will realize then how much we love Him, but even more how much He loved us. I say that in the name of Jesus Christ.

Amen. Amen. What a great day. John, by the way, what a great day. Thank you, Dr. Matt Bowen. Thank you for your time and your expertise. It's been wonderful. Thank you all of you for listening today. Thank you for being with us. We're grateful for your support. We want to thank by name, our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson, and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson. And we hope all of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him. you