followHIM - Exodus 24, 31-34 -- Part 2 : Dr. John Hilton III

Episode Date: April 23, 2022

Dr. Hilton returns and discusses the importance of serving God, how to consider difficult portions of the scriptures, and how Moses’s life testifies of Jesus Christ.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers/SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Transcripts/Language Team/French TranscriptsAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. Aaron said to the people, take off the gold rings that are on the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters, and bring them to me. So all the people took off the gold rings from their ears and brought them to Aaron. And notice verse four, he, Aaron, took the gold from them, formed it in a mold, and cast an image of a calf. And they said, these are your gods. So stay on that. That's the storyline of what happens. But then when we come to Moses, as he's talking to Aaron about it, verse 21, Moses says to Aaron, what is going on? What happened? Verse 22, Aaron said, do not let the anger of my Lord burn hot., Moses, we don't know what happened to him. Verse 24. So I said to them, whoever has gold, take it off. So they gave it to me. I threw it

in the fire and out came the calf. And that phrase out came the calf, like Matt, like I didn't do anything with it. It's just like, boom, poof, it appeared. And I love Aaron. I'm not trying to be too critical on him because boy, I do this all the time, but it doesn't that highlight a human tendency to shift responsibility? Well, you know, the people, they're pretty naughty and they did this and well, just kind of this happened. The translation you're reading, is that what it says? Out came the calf? Yeah. Out came this calf. That's the new Revised Standard Version. What does the King James say? It says there came out this calf. Yeah. I mean, it's the same kind of idea, right? Like, boom, poof.

It's interesting. We have what really happened, and then we have Aaron's version of what happened. This happens to me as a father all the time. I can see in your eyes, Hank, you're thinking of some stories when the twins have said, oh, out came the refrigerator. It fell on the ground. Who knows? So all of a sudden I hear one of my children start crying.

I walk in. What happened? Nothing. I did nothing. It just started crying all by itself. And that is a human tendency. You're right. We all do this in some way.

We come up with a different version of events that kind of shifts blame off of us. It's this people, right? These people, they made me do this. A common phrase we use all the time today, she makes me mad. Well, really? I mean, like I'm shifting the responsibility. One time I was a missionary and I knocked on the door and a little girl answered, she's probably four or five years old. I said, is your mom home? And she said, my mom told me to tell you that she's not home right now. And I said, oh, okay. Could you go ask your mom when she'll be back? And the girl turned around and she goes, hey mom, when will you be home?

That's awesome. Shifting the responsibility. I think it feels good in the short run because then I'm not to blame. I'm shifting it to someone else. But I remember as a young missionary, Elder Lindsey Robbins came to my mission and he talks to us about the importance of not making excuses and taking responsibility. He later gave a BYU devotional on a similar topic called 100% Responsibility. And his book that applies this to marriage, Love is a Choice, is really powerful. If the problem is somewhere else, if it's the people who are doing it, then I can't change it. But if it's me, then I can change it. So the principle of agency and accountability is so huge and can help us, I think, when we're trying to shift the blame to others to remind myself, no, I am an agent. There's power within me. And yes, that means that I might have to take some uncomfortable responsibility, but it also means I can change the situation. When Lehi is talking to his son Jacob in 2 Nephi 2, he speaks of things that God

created both to act and things to be acted upon. And I know Elder Bednar's talked about that and maybe Lynn Robbins too, Elder Robbins, about that idea of saying, when you say, this made me do it or that made me do it or she makes me mad. You are being acted upon instead of being someone who's been given agency in acting. I thought it was such a great way to describe all of creation. Things that act should be us and things that are acted upon. And like we said in the beginning, all of these things tie to Jesus Christ. Remember in Doctrine and Covenants section one, verse 38, he said, what I, the Lord have spoken, I have spoken, and I excuse not myself. So Jesus Christ doesn't make excuses. He doesn't shift the blame. He didn't say walking into Gethsemane like, oh,

maybe this might be too hard. No, he went through the hard things for us. And I just think there's power in that principle. And in seeing Jesus Christ as the ultimate foundation of that principle. Aaron has an opportunity here to be honest. It's interesting because he tells the truth up until the point where it's like, they told me to make them gods. So I told them to give me their gold. So, so far it's the truth. Then 24, I threw it into the fire. Okay, we're still good, Aaron Aaron you're still telling the truth here

and then there's and out came this calf there's some fire you built there yeah I'm withholding some information he received them at their hand fashioned it with a graving tool and after he had made the calf he made this calf right he molded it and made the calf, he made this calf, right? He molded it and made the calf. We have opportunities in life to tell the truth and to just own up to our mistakes. I did it. And I don't want to say that those are great moments. Those aren't fun. But there is a power that comes in confession, in owning up to one's mistakes and saying, it was me.

You know how it is with your kids. When a child comes and says, dad, I made a mistake. I did this. I mean, your heart is softened so quickly. And Heavenly Father is like that when we get on our knees and say, I really messed up. Because we've all had that situation as dads. But if somebody's willing to own it and say, I did something really stupid, you're immediately, you're willing to forgive. And as leaders too, we might do this. We might

refuse to say, I made a mistake. It's like, oh, the people, they were, that made me laugh, John. Thanks for that. While we're on this topic here, I think a good question is why do the people even want a graven image? And the Come Follow Me manual has some great insightful questions and thoughts at this point. It says, why do you think the Israelites wanted a golden idol? Why was the Israelites' sin so serious? These verses might prompt you to ponder ways you might be tempted to put your trust in someone or something other than the Savior.

And I've got to be honest, I have never desired a golden calf in my life. Not once. I am've got to be honest, I have never desired a golden calf in my life. Not once. I am impervious to this temptation. But you think about what might that represent in my life? So often I'll feel like, well, yes, the Lord is enough in my life, but I really want the Lord plus a really good job. Jesus plus a good marriage is enough, or Jesus plus my kids doing exactly what I want. That's enough. And I think this is a reminder that Jesus is enough, period. The end. That's all I need. I don't need the golden calf.

I don't need anything else. And while probably none of us are tempted to worship an idol in that sense, I think this is a great point to step back and say, am I looking for my security in something other than the Savior? Because if I am, I'm going to come up short and feel pain because other things will fail me at one time or another. It's like the Helaman statement. He's the only sure foundation and everything else is a bad foundation.

It seems that it's almost easier to get the people out of Egypt than to get the Egypt out of the people. They brought so much of their old life with them. It looks to me like they're having a hard time letting that go and fully investing in this new relationship with God that they have. They're kind of dragging their feet a little bit. The golden calves of my life, we could make lists of things that we often prioritize maybe as the golden calves of our lives in front of.

We just talked about the Sabbath day. I'm not willing to give this up or this up or this up, even though I know I probably should. Those are golden calves. Those are things I don't want to give up for my relationship with God. And look at verse seven, where the Lord tells Moses, these people have corrupted themselves. They did this. I don't want them to be corrupt. I don't want their life to have this in it, but they chose it. So, if I think about the golden calves of my life, John, I think of

anything I prioritize higher than the Lord, or maybe just as high. Do you remember Elder Scott would say, if you're living as though the Lord and his commandments are one of your many important priorities, you're clearly on the road to tragedy. What? For example, maybe my social media feed might be more important to me than my scripture study or a professional basketball team that shouldn't be named, maybe more important to me than spending time with my children or attending their events or attending even the temple with my wife, something like that, where I just have these golden calves in my life and they're corrupting my life. I'm choosing corruption in that way. And hang on, I love that you're kind of sharing some real life examples. I think this is a great moment for Lord is it I, like at the last supper when Jesus says, one of you will betray me,

the disciples say, is it me? Some of us, we could probably listen and think, oh yeah, boy, I hope my husband or I hope that my brother is listening to this podcast right now because they've got some gold mines they got to get rid of. You know, this is a great chance to think about, okay, so how do I take responsibility? How do I make sure that I'm putting God, not just as one of many important priorities, but really first? Egypt seems to me like a Babylon. Oh, Babylon, oh, Babylon, we bid thee farewell. These people need to do that with Egypt. They need to bid it farewell and embrace fully this relationship with God. But I think Egypt, like Babylon, doesn't give exit permits gladly, right? It hangs on and we have to deliberately, deliberately shed the traditions of our past.

We started today with the story that's a little disturbing and you don't often hear in primary. deliberately, deliberately shed the traditions of our past. We started today with the story that's a little disturbing and you don't often hear in primary. And we have another one that's coming up right now. And in verse 25, when Moses saw that the people were running wild for Aaron had let them run wild to the derision of their enemies, then Moses stood in the gate of the camp and said, who is on the Lord's side? Come to me. And all the sons of Levi gathered around him. And if we ever read this first, we'll usually stop right there at verse 26. And then we'll say, okay, awesome. Now who would like to sing who's on the Lord's side, who, and we'll sing that hymn and that'll be great. And I hope that we don't ruin that hymn for you for the rest of your life, because right after this phrase,

who's on the Lord's side, verse 27, Moses said to them, thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, put your sword on your side, each of you go back and forth from gate to gate throughout the camp. And each of you kill your brother, your friend, and your neighbor. The sons of Levi did as Moses commanded and about 3,000 of the people fell on that day. This is one of many, and we've seen some already, and more are coming in the future where we read something in the Old Testament or in other books of scripture, and it's a little disturbing.

And we think, why would this have happened? And I don't have a rock solid answer on this specific story, but I thought maybe we could just think together about some basic principles and some possibilities to consider when you read something like this that's disturbing. This story is more than 3,500 years old. So it's very possible that some specific details may have been lost. That's one possibility. Another possibility is that this story was written down by someone at some point in

time, probably several hundred years after it happened. Does this story reflect more the will of God or the will of Moses or perhaps a later redactor or a viewpoint of someone else? That's a possibility. Or is it possible that the Israelites, they've just witnessed these 10 plagues. They've witnessed the crossing of the Red Sea. They've had so many witnesses and they promised three times, we're going to keep this covenant. And now they're deliberately not coming to Moses' side. They're choosing to stay on the other side. And so because of this heightened accountability, there's a heightened responsibility. That's a possibility. And there may be other things that we haven't talked about. The Come Follow Me manual coming up in just a couple of weeks, it has a little section

called the Historical Books of the Old Testament. And I'll just read a little paragraph from it. It says, what should we do when we come across passages in the scriptures that seem troubling? First, it might help to consider each passage in a broader context. How does it fit in God's plan of salvation? How does it fit with what you know about the nature of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ? How does it fit with revealed truths in other scriptures or the teachings of living prophets? And how does it fit with the whisperings of the Spirit to your own heart and mind? This doesn't fully solve the

issue of, wow, what happened that day? Why was that the case? But I hope that those are some principles that can help us keep not only this story, but other stories that we'll encounter in the future in a perspective. I like that, John. This is the idea where you hit something like this and you say, I don't know. And then you kind of move on and you let it sit there for a little while. And maybe later one day you come back and it makes more sense to you at a certain time. But yeah, you're right. Just acknowledging that things are tough, that this is disturbing and it's okay that it's

disturbing. I would hate if anyone said, this is my favorite part. Don't throw everything away because you've hit this disturbing part. Let it just sit for a while and see if maybe later on you understand it at a different time. It's weird that they're all the sons of Levi. Just, we'll do it. You know, who's on the Lord's side? Did anyone else say we're on the Lord's side or was it just the sons of Levi? There's got to be a lot more people. When you read it, the people are running wild. I think our listeners would prefer that to the King James in verse 25. And I think the footnote in the King James uses the word naked, but the footnote says something like riotous.

Riotous or let loose. Yeah, exactly. One thing, Johns, as I read difficult passages like this, I try to remember that death is so different to the Lord than it is for us. For us, it seems so final and like there's a retribution here. But to the Lord, remember that death is moving to a different classroom. Latter-day Saint doctrine, we believe that people in the next life, the dead who repent will be redeemed. So perhaps try to see it as one of the many possibilities we've talked about.

Try to see this as the Lord moving them to a different classroom to be taught instead of staying here where they may do even more damage if this type of behavior continues. It's crucial for Israel that they leave Egypt behind both physically and spiritually. Going back to the list of possibilities, sometimes we just come to Isaiah 55, 8, 9, where the Lord says, for my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways. So there may be some things that we just don't understand. And perhaps when we're sitting with the Lord in the next life, and he gives us some added perspective or some details in the story that aren't recorded here,

all of a sudden we say, oh, okay, that makes sense. Yeah. I've often thought that. Before we move on to chapter 33, I wanted to make a note of Exodus 32 verse 20, right? These are interesting verses. These are interesting stories where Moses takes the golden calf, grinds it to powder, mixes it with water. So we've got our first protein powder here, and he made them drink of it. And I thought, man, that is such an interesting... He's saying, listen, if you love it so much, then why don't you go ahead and internalize it, right? So maybe it's a physical representation of what they're spiritually are doing. They're internalizing this idolatry. And he says, well, let me show you how sick this will make you. I've often wondered

if I go to the bishop and I tell him I struggle with, hey, here's my phone, and I'm struggling with pornography or something. And he had a big blender in his office and he mixed the phone with some water and blended it up. And he said, okay, now drink this. I would say, I would never do that. Well, why are you internalizing spiritually these things? If you wouldn't let them into your body, why are you letting into your mind and heart? So maybe there's an interesting lesson there, but I thought, wow, you love it that much? Fine. You drink it. I think it was Elder Bruce C. Hafen that we've had on the podcast who said that as we partake of the sacrament,

we assimilate the atonement. I think those are the words he used. We bring it into our, we put it inside. And that's a positive way of looking at it. Take the bread, the emblems of the sacrament. So we've talked about types of Christ. This could be like an anti type of Christ in a sense. That should be a good object lesson for parents.

If your kids love TV and won't give it up, just grind it to powder and we'll all drink it as a family night treat. All right, John, we want to move on to 33. So the Lord is going to have a conversation with Moses. And basically we're kind of going back to where we were in Exodus 24. Moses is going to go back up to the mountain. He's going to receive more knowledge and inspiration from the Lord. Maybe we can highlight a really powerful couple of phrases.

In verse 11, we see that the Lord spoke to Moses face to face as a man speaks to his friend. That's a powerful verse on so many levels. Number one, it tells us something about the nature of God, that He's a personage. It also tells us about the type of communion that we can have. I remember fairly recently, Elder M. Russell Ballard said something to the effect of, every member of the church can have an apostolic-like relationship with the Lord. To me, that really raised the bar of, okay, I can really develop a close relationship with the Lord. And maybe verse 11 is another one of those, although it's clear throughout the text that Moses

has a special relationship with God that's different from others, that I can strive towards having this ability in my prayers to speak with the Lord as a man speaketh to his friend, to really know him, to really connect with the Lord in prayer. And then right after that in verse 12 is one of my all-time favorite one-liners. I know that you both enjoy finding these short, powerful scriptural phrases. And in verse 12, Moses says, you have said, I know you by name. And I love that, that the Lord says, I know you by name. And to me, those two passages together really give a sense for the type of relationship we can have with the Lord. He knows us by name and cares about us. And so when we put that extra time and effort to develop a relationship with him, that is not time wasted. Beautiful. That's the first word of the first vision, Joseph, right?

In that very first word, Joseph learns, he knows who I am. He knows my name, right? The Lord didn't say, hey, kid, right? Or you, or hey, farm boy. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name. I know your name. That's beautiful, John. Now, while we're here, wrapping up 33 briefly, if you look later, there seems to be a verse that

contradicts verse 11 and verse 20, this idea of no one can look on my face. And so some people have wondered what's happening with this contradiction here. So again, there's lots of possibilities. One is that maybe a later editor doesn't like the idea of face-to-face or has a different understanding of it, and so is maybe putting there's many possibilities. From the first vision, we see that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have physical bodies. So, there's no doubt that Moses could speak to them face-to-face. What I see in 33, John, is the Lord saying, look, I want to give you this land flowing with milk and honey. That's 33 verse 3. But this is a stiff-necked people. And everything we've discussed today, it seems like the Lord is ready to give them blessings

and their own choices are what's holding them back. Maybe the story of my life, right? That the Lord is saying, here's all of these blessings. I'm ready to give them to you. Are you ready to choose them? The promised land is ready for you, but you've got to get yourself ready for it. That's beautiful. I love that. So if we go into Exodus chapter 34, the Lord tells Moses to cut two additional tablets of stone. So he broke the first two tablets and we're about to see more revelation being given to Moses. There's a couple of beautiful passages that we probably want to highlight. Starting in verse six, the Lord passed before Moses and proclaimed the Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness,

keeping steadfast love for the thousandth generation, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin. And I think these are some verses just, we've read a few challenging things in our chapters today, but it's important to remember that these verses are describing the Lord. And then Moses in verse nine says, if now I have found favor in your sight, oh Lord, I pray, let the Lord go with us. Although this is a stiff naked people, pardon our iniquity and our sin and take us for your inheritance. And we talked earlier about praying like a prophet. I think this is a beautiful way. Moses doesn't say, hey, you owe us Lord. He says, look, I get it. We're not a lot to work with, but can you please have patience with us and do what you

can with us, Lord? I think that's a great way also to approach the Lord in prayer. It's interesting that Moses even takes it on himself. Our pardon, our iniquity and our sin, where at least at the golden calf, he wasn't part of that. Yeah, but he identifies with his people. That's another advocate idea that you pointed out, John, where I'm an advocate for my people. I really love the insight about don't just notice that prophets pray, but notice what

they say. If we go over to verse 11, the Lord gives some interesting commandments. And I wanted to maybe brainstorm a little bit about what does this look like for us today? So to Moses, the Lord says, observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you.

You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, cut down their sacred poles, for you shall worship no other God. It's really clear that the Lord is calling His people to be separate and distinct from the other peoples in the world. And I think, I mean, this is one of the reasons I'm so grateful for living prophets. God isn't telling us today through living prophets, to isolate ourselves. We're supposed to be in the world, but not of the world. And so I think the principle here is you got to be separate and distinct. And I'd love your insights on what do you think this looks like, the general principle looks like for us in our society today where we are living in a secular society. He said back in 33 verse 16, so shall we be separated. It's distinctive. I'm looking at the footnote verse 33, 16, distinctive and accepting the fact that when you are in a

relationship with the Lord, you are going to be different than most people. Last year, we talked about the word of wisdom. Yes, being a health code, but more importantly, being something that makes you different. Garments are another thing where people would say, that's weird, that's odd, how peculiar. And you would say, well, this is part of me accepting the fact that I'm different. My relationship with the Lord makes me different. And I think it was Elaine Dalton who said, if you want to make a difference, you've got to be willing to be different. To me, that's the Lord saying, you're not going to take part in anything else in this land because I want you to remain different from everyone else.

I wonder if when they were in Egypt, and maybe John, you know about this, did they accept some of the Egyptian gods? And is the Lord telling him, don't do that this time. It's all me. And don't start absorbing the culture around you. Did they accept some of the Egyptian gods? And maybe one of the reasons for the plagues was to discount every one of those gods for the Egyptians and for the house of Israel? I'm honestly not clear on that. The idea of the 10 plagues and combating the 10 Egyptian gods, I think that's pretty clear, but I don't know that we have scriptural evidence that the Israelites were. It's certainly possible. Oh, yeah. You would think that that would be something that eventually becomes, I mean, you're building these temples, you're building these statues. You're living in the culture, right. Yeah. I've wondered if after so long in Egypt, maybe they had adopted some of the culture, maybe even some of the gods of Egypt, and that maybe the Lord just wants to take that dry erase board and just erase everything and don't partake of that culture.

I'm Jehovah, you're supposed to worship me. Boy, talk about a clean slate. Go through and start all over again. I mean, that phrase in verse 15, what a strong statement. They go a-whoring after other gods. Wow. Don't make a covenant with them. Start all over. I also think that we need to remember that God isn't telling us this because he needs us to be constantly worshiping him to build his self-esteem or anything like that. This is because we find happiness and joy as we're connected to Christ, and we find sorrow as we lose that connection.

If we were to go back to verse 10, the Lord says, Hereby I make a covenant. Before all your people, I will perform marvels such as not have been performed in all the earth. And I think that's, again, God wants to make something amazing out of us. And he's wanting us to connect with him, not for his own purpose, but so that he can make more of us than we can make of ourselves. And look at the end of verse 10, another great one-liner, the very last line in the King James, it uses the word terrible, but an alternate translation is awesome. So the Lord says, for it is an awesome thing that I will do with you. And I love that God is saying,

I want to make you awesome. I'm asking you be with me so I can do that for you. Right. And clean all these other things out of your life. I don't want other gods there to taint our relationship. I want to give you this fully. So our chapters for today don't really have a satisfying conclusion because the Lord is going to give Moses some additional revelation. And then all that revelation is going to be unfolded to us in our next week, come follow me chapters. And it's going to be acted upon as they build the tabernacle. But I thought maybe a nice way for us to conclude today might be to step back and think about all of the different ways where Moses is a type of Jesus Christ. And there's probably way more than we'll be able to list right now, but

just think of some that have come up in the verses we've looked at today. Moses is fasting for 40 days and 40 nights, just like Jesus fasts for 40 days and 40 nights. Moses receives the law on the mountainside, whereas Jesus gives the new law on the mount with the Sermon on the Mount. There's other connections like Moses as the mediator saying he's going to make an atonement

pleading for his people. Jesus truly making an atonement pleading for us. There's the blood of the old covenant. There's the blood of the new covenant. I think Moses is a great example of the scriptural phrase that all things testify of Christ. And Moses as a person testified directly of Christ, but also Moses, the person testifies of Christ. And John, you started today with Exodus 24, with Moses sprinkling the blood. And we might go, oh, what's going on here? But we can see the Savior's death, the Savior on the cross, offering up his own blood in sacrifice. In Colossians, the apostle Paul talks about the blood of the cross, and Jesus talked about the blood of his New Testament.

So that's another powerful connection. I like this, looking for the Savior in these chapters. John, you've just outlined some of the ways in these chapters, but what are some of the other ways outside of these chapters that Moses is such a strong type of Christ? Just a couple of examples that come to mind. Early on, they both have near death experiences as a baby. You've got Pharaoh trying to kill baby boys, Herod trying to kill baby boys. Moses is going in and out of Egypt, just as Jesus is going in and out of Egypt. Recently, we talked about water flowing from a rock as Moses gets water for the people. Water flows from Jesus' side on the cross. And Jesus had earlier said,

if anyone is thirsty, let them come unto me, for out of my belly shall flow forth waters, living waters. I think this will just be a theme. We could manna. Manna and Jesus is the bread of life. But in so many ways, the story of the Exodus and Moses in particular is the story of Jesus. And that's just true with every other passage of scripture that we'll see. The story of David and Goliath is about someone who is weak, defeating the strong for us, Jesus, in that same way. And so, I love what we talked about at the very beginning of finding all the ways we can to identify Jesus in these Old Testament passages. You know, there's another one that's just kind of fun because it's not

scriptural, but it's in Josephus. And if you've seen the movie, The Ten Commandments, which is where kind of where I learned about Moses the first time, was watching that movie. At the very beginning, they're talking to Pharaoh Seti I, and his priests, the Pharaoh's priests are saying there's word among the Hebrews of a deliverer, and one of them says a star proclaims his birth. And that's from Josephus, said that there was a new star when Moses was born. And I've always thought that's why that's in the movie, because Josephus said there was a new star. In so many ways, it's so easy to see a lot of things that Moses did that the Savior did. I always just think of leading us out of bondage into the promised land, as Moses did, and Jesus leads us out of spiritual bondage through his atonement to be with him again.

So, I love that we can draw so much of Christ from the Old Testament. This has just been a fantastic day. I'm looking at all the things we've talked about from, you know, learning that the Sabbath is a delight, talking about those who were blessed to work on the details of the temple with their gifts. We talked about the delays sometimes in life and coming to details of the temple with their gifts. We talked about the delays sometimes in life and coming to testimony of the commandments that sometimes we corrupt ourselves or sometimes we blame others like Aaron. I didn't do it. It was somebody else that we find out in life.

We talked about Moses says, Lord, you know me, you know me by name. All of this is just, this is beautiful. Oh, and the Lord says, I want to do awesome things for you. I want to give you a land that flows with milk and honey. All of this seems very real to 2022. And we can learn these same lessons. So let me ask both of you, when have you experienced some of these same things? Could we have a part three of this episode?

Because as you were talking, I'm like, wow, I have stories that I could share on all of these. But one that came to mind as you were talking about was the delay. And it connects with a couple of the other principles. An experience from my life back in 2007, I started feeling that I should start a PhD program. So I applied a year and a half in advance, got accepted to a PhD program. And at the time I was working for the seminary and institute program in Florida. And I made an application a year and a half from now, I want to be able to move. And I

thought that was very reasonable, giving them enough time. But this was also the middle of a housing crisis. And so for a variety of reasons, the church put a hold on moves. It was just very expensive to move employees around. And so they said, we can't move you. I prayed and I felt really confident that we should sell our house and move to Utah and start this PhD program. And I specifically felt the Lord say, don't worry, everything will work out. But over the next few months, nothing worked out. My employer said, if you move, you'll lose your job.

And I thought, okay, they're probably just joking, but they weren't joking. I lost my job. And selling our house in the midst of a housing crisis was terrible. It was a miracle that our house even sold at all. But along the way, in these months when everything looked like it was falling apart, and some things actually didn't look like they fell apart. They did fall apart. I was constantly stressed and nervous. And even though the Lord had said, everything's going to work out, don't worry. I worried all the time. And to me, that's just, it's a minor example maybe, but I think it's a real example of delay. Even though like I didn't leave the church or, you know, break all my covenants, I felt so beat up inside. And I kind of can see the Lord crying a little bit for me saying like, John, you didn't have to do that. Those nine months when

your life was just full of constant stress, I told you everything was going to work out. You could have enjoyed those nine months. They didn't have to be nine months of stress. I wish you would have let me in. The happy part of the story is that in the long run, things did work out. Eventually, I was able to get a PhD. I got hired for my dream job, teaching religion at BYU. And now looking back, I feel like this whole episode was part of the Lord doing an awesome thing in my life. But that doesn't mean it wasn't painful at the time. And going back to one of the principles we talked about earlier, the golden calf, I think for me, my golden calf was knowing

exactly how everything was going to work out. That's still one of the idols that I have today. I don't like uncertainty. I don't like surprises. I want to know exactly what's going to happen and how things are going to work out. And in this case, I didn't know that. And it was so painful. I was basically saying, yes, Jesus is enough. But really what I meant was Jesus plus knowing everything's going to work out. That's enough. And being able to see every detail. That's one experience from my life where I've seen some of the principles we've been talking about at a personal level. I think a lot of our young adult listeners are thinking of how topsy-turvy things would be. You got your mission call to here, but then you didn't actually go there. You learned a language here, but you didn't

even use that language, or maybe you didn't, and then you were called home, and then you never even saw the MTC. And we had a kid in our ward. Oh, it was so good. He got up and he said, I had the privilege of serving during a worldwide pandemic. And I immediately knew, oh, good. Listen to the way the Lord has helped him think of this. And he talked about being called to South Africa and then being called home and then getting a job because he didn't know what was going to happen. It was such a delay and worked as an EMT or something and then got called to New Mexico and how all of a sudden the things he learned he used in New Mexico and then back to South Africa.

Elder Forsythe said his closing line, as I recall, was, my mission did not turn out the way that I expected, but it happened more beautifully than I had planned. And I was just so gratified to hear his perspective of trusting the Lord enough to say, no, there may be a delay. It may not be what I thought, but it worked out beautifully. And all of it was kept his faith in the Lord. You know, that's excellent. You know, that phrase, Exodus 33, 12, that John showed us here, Moses says, you have

said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight. Moses is trusting the idea that the Lord knows who he is and that the Lord knows each individual. Way back in 2005, Elder David Bednar gave a talk called the tender mercies of the Lord. It was his very first full talk in general conference. He had been called six months before and bore his testimony at conference. He talked about the moment he was called and sustained as a member of the 12. And he said, I want to describe and discuss a spiritual oppression I received a few moments before I stepped to this pulpit during the Sunday

morning session of General Conference last October. He talks about Elder Uchtdorf, who had been called at the same time as him, had borne his testimony. We all stood and sang together the intermediate hymn, Redeemer of Israel. He says, quote, now the music for the various conference sessions had been determined many weeks before and obviously long before my new call to serve. If, however, I had been invited to suggest an intermediate hymn for that particular session of the conference, a hymn that would have been both edifying and spiritually soothing for me and for the congregation before my first address in this conference center, I would have selected my favorite hymn,

Redeemer of Israel. It was the same hymn. Tears filled my eyes as I stood with you to sing that stirring hymn of the restoration. He goes on a little bit later and says, a loving savior was sending me a most personal and timely message of comfort and reassurance through a hymn selected weeks previously. Some may count this experience as simply a nice coincidence, but I testify that the tender mercies of the Lord are real. They do not occur randomly or merely by coincidence. And I've heard Elder Bednar talk about this at other times where he says, the Lord knows us, each one of us, one by one, name by name. Since that talk, I tried to find and record and pay attention to those experiences where I see that the Lord knows me and knows my name, knows who I am. And as I write those down and testify of them, I find that I get more of them. I find

that the Lord sees that I'm taking them seriously. And to me, that's one of the awesome things the Lord has done for me has been to show me, hey, I know you. I know who you are. I know what you're going through. I'm aware of you. Our friend, John Hilton III, he's so great. They made three of him. It has been a privilege to have you with us today. And this won't be the last time we have you. So before we let you go and say goodbye just for now, because I'm sure we'll have you back soon, what are your parting thoughts for our listeners?

Is that we were just concluding, Hank, you shared some beautiful thoughts on tender mercies. And John and I talked about a few stories where there's delays, but in the end, things worked out. I just want to take a moment and talk directly to the people

who aren't seeing tender mercies right now, who you're in a delay and things don't look like they're going to work out. I think some of the most painful examples of this are with physical challenges and also with challenges that we have no control over. Maybe there's a child who's gone astray or making bad choices

and maybe that child is not going to make a dramatic change like Alma the Younger did. But to everyone who's in the middle of this divine delay, I want to testify that Jesus Christ is real. He does know you by name. He cares about you. And as we've seen throughout these scripture accounts, and we'll see as we continue to go through Exodus and beyond, Jesus Christ lives, He loves us. And even though it's painful, when we are able to stay in those difficult moments with Jesus, we're always better off

than when we leave him. And I know that's true. I love that, John. John, thank you so, so much. No wonder the course that you created, it's called Seeking Jesus. Sounds like you do that daily. Just as a reminder, everybody, you can find that wherever you get your podcasts. John, by the way, we've had a great day. Really great. I feel like I understand these chapters more than before. I've got notes that I'm going to use in my classes. We hope that all of you have enjoyed being with us today and that you have your scriptures

out and you're taking notes and you're sharing this with other people so they can have these same experiences. So from my two Johns, my two friends, John Hilton and John, by the way, we want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson. Thank you for being here. And we hope all of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him.