followHIM - Helaman 7-12 Part 1 • Prof. Shima Baughman • September 2 - September 8 • Come Follow Me

Episode Date: August 28, 2024

What power comes to the Saints for remembering the words of the prophets? Professor Shima Baughman explores the sources of crime, its effects, and the power of the Atonement of Jesus Christ to heal not only the victims but every soul.SHOW NOTES/TRANSCRIPTSEnglish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM36ENFrench: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM36FRGerman: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM36DEPortuguese: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM36PTSpanish: https://tinyurl.com/podcastBM36ESYOUTUBEhttps://youtu.be/SMfxrXjc5mEALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIMpodcast.comFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookWEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletterSOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE00:00 Part I  -  Professor Shima Baughman02:00 Prof. Baughman’s bio04:04 Come, Follow Me Manual5:24 Helaman 6:26 through 7:26 - The root of crime08:26 Turning our backs on the poor leads to crime12:32 Are there bad people?15:27 A hypothetical legal case about our brother22:01 Christlike service is rarely convenient23:37 Nephi praying on a tower26:30 Should we gossip with our spouse?29:40 Helping those who have fallen away32:55 Helaman 7:9 - “These are my days”36:20 A frustrated temple trip39:09 Helaman 7:7 - Teaching repentance and promptings42:42 Helaman 7:20 - Praying for miracles46:09  Helaman 8:1-14- What to remember?49:39 Remember though a family mission statement51:45 An escape from Iran55:25 Helaman 8:23 - Expect miracles57:30 Helaman 8:27 - Public trial of Nephi1:02:36  End of Part 1 - Professor Shima BaughmanThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my co-host, John, by the way, who I describe as with unwearingness has declared the word. John, for the last 150 years, you have declared with unwearyingness the word. That is a description of Nephi in Helaman chapter 10. John, book of Helaman 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. What are we looking forward to, do you think? I really like this because it's a story. The fact that Nephi has been out on a mission. They remembered the words of their father, you know, the Helaman 5 thing about build on the rock of Christ. And they go, and then he comes back and he sees problems among his own people and how he deals with that. It's fun to watch and to imagine how he might've felt coming back home and going, we've got problems in my own backyard.

John, we are joined this week by Professor Shima Boffman. She is wonderful. If we can call you Shima, you are Professor Boffman. You've earned it. But if it's okay, we'll call you Shima. No, Shima is perfect. What are we looking forward to today? Where are we going to go? Gilman's a story of a downfall. In a relatively brief period, 52 years of the Nephites, and in just 40 years, five chief judges are murdered and secretly killed through the conspiracies. We're studying one murder today, the Sazoram murder. I think these chapters give us insight on what might be at the root of our sins, pride, forgetfulness of God.

In the case of the Nephites, it leads to lawlessness, crime, secret combinations, suffering, then famine, and they reject the words of God and their legacy of faith, which Nephi tries to remind them of. I actually think these chapters are a really good indication of where our society might be today in 2024. We're full of crime, evil abounds, and often we fail to remember God, but there are still righteous people who will listen to the prophets and many who follow the Savior, but it will just get more wicked until Christ comes again for us and also for the Nephites. It's a really good parallel to our society today. Yeah, this is a difficult set of chapters. Sorry that we brought you on for lawlessness and murder. But John, actually,

Dr. Boffman, Shima is perfect for this episode, given her background and her education. Can you give us a bio of where she's been and what she's doing? Yeah, I'm excited to share this because this is so unique. Shima Boffman is a public educator, author, a law professor at BYU, and the Wheatley Institute, a former Fulbright scholar turned TikToker. Shima spreads the joy of the gospel on her social media when she's not hanging out with her five children, ranging from 19 to 1, and her husband, Ryan. And Shima and I have something in common.

Her five-year-old daughter, June, had a wonderful pre-kindergarten teacher named Kimberly, by the way. So good. Her favorite. You are actually born in Iran. And tell us about that and when you moved here and how you came in contact with the church. Yeah, it's the greatest blessing. I lived in Iran until I was seven. We were, through lots of miracles, able to escape Iran during the Iran-Iraq war, come to California, where there was a beautiful angelic woman who was prompted to talk to my dad about the gospel. And she invited us to her Christmas party. And through that, we were able to join the church and end up staying in the U.S. We were supposed to go back after one year of research, but we applied for asylum. My mom had been a political prisoner in Iran. Lots of crazy miracles. Wow. Wow. What a fascinating

micro plan of salvation you have had. That is so amazing. It is. It really is. God is so good. I'm so blessed. Well, welcome, Shima. Welcome to Follow Him. Thank you. And now we go to crime? Yes, and now we turn to crime and conspiracy. But it is a popular podcast topic. It's true crime. And what we're going to go through today is true crime. So maybe we'll advertise it that way. Follow Him. True crime.

I'm going to read a little bit from the Come Follow Me manual. It starts this way. Nephi's father, Helaman, had urged his sons to remember, remember. He wanted them to remember their ancestors, remember the words of the prophets, and most of all, remember our Redeemer who is Christ. It's clear that Nephi did remember because this is the same message he declared years later with unwearyingness, like John, by the way, to the people. How could you have forgotten your God?

He asked. All of Nephite's efforts, preaching, praying, performing miracles, and petitioning God for a famine were attempts to help the people turn to God and remember him. In many ways, forgetting God is an even bigger problem than not knowing him. And it's easy to forget him when our minds are distracted by the vain things of this world and clouded by sin. But as Nephi's ministry shows, it's never too late to remember and turn to the Lord your God.

All right, Shema, with that, what do you want to do first? I would love to start in Helman 6, where we really see where things go wrong. And it gives us the context for chapter 7, where Nephi goes to pray to the Lord about his people that are so wicked. The Lord has blessed the Nephites with riches. Then they get stirred up with anger and bloodshed. They begin to set their hearts on riches and try to be lifted up above each other. They commit murders and plunders. That last part of chapter six, Helaman 6, 26 to 31, it really gives us clarity on what is behind crime. What is the root of crime? Well, it's Satan.

Satan is behind all conspiracy from the beginning of time. He spreads, it says, quote, works of darkness and abominations over the face of the land until he dragged the people down to an entire destruction and an everlasting hell. That's Helaman 6.28. It is the same being who put in the heart of Gadianton to carry on the work of darkness and secret murder. He brought it forth from the beginning of man, even down to this time. And behold, this part really stuck out to me. It says in Helaman 630, he is the author of all sin. If you think about Jesus Christ, he's the author and finisher of our faith. And Satan is the author of all sin and darkness. He eases us into crime through pride. I think that's the first step. Think about Cain and Abel, whose stories reference in Helaman 6, Cain is jealous of Abel, his offering

being accepted, and then he goes and kills him. Behind crime, a lot of times, the root of it is pride. It's really fascinating. Nephi gives us, in the first part of Helaman, three reasons why people commit crimes. And I think it's spot on. And it almost explains every crime I've seen. So he says in Helaman 7, 21 and 26, he says, one is to get gain of gold and silver and things. Number two is to be praised of men, prestige and things. And then three, he says pride. I really think that's so fascinating. I mean, it explains all of the major crimes. You think of murder, rape, kidnapping, burglary, robbery, larceny, assault. All of them have roots in these three causes. Pride is a key one, trying to be lifted up above another.

My boys and I just went to Iceland recently, and there, it's the third safest country in the whole world. There's only two murders a year there. And I know, John, your son served a mission there. When I was there, I was thinking, why is this place so safe? And part of it, as I learned as I was there, is there's very little inequality and very little poverty. And I think those are themes that we see throughout the Book of Mormon.

People become rich, then they become prideful, they're lifted above each other, and then they forget God. I'm excited because we're going there later this year. What I think of when you talked about becoming rich and poor, I think of how Zion is defined as there was no poor among them. And that's part of what Zion is described as. This is anti-Zion, right? Anti-Zion, exactly. And it's where you put your heart.

Do you build your heart on Christ, or do you set your heart on your riches? Yeah. There's one exception I would say where I've seen crime and it's not rooted in pride or praise of men or getting gain. And it was when I lived in Malawi. I lived in Malawi for almost two years.

And I remember in the desperateness of poverty that people had there, that also led to crime. Helaman 36 also talks about they turned their backs upon the poor and the meek. I remember during the rainy months there that people couldn't grow corn and that's what they subsisted on. Theft and burglary increased so much there because people were hungry. And I remember going to church and it was really shocking because I could see that our branch presidency, for instance,

and other members of the church, they actually looked visibly thinner during the rainy months because they could not grow enough food. They were going to bed hungry and it didn't feel like Zion. It is disturbing. I think that's why our church spends so much time and money to try to help. The Relief Society recently donated a large amount of money for women and children to not be hungry. And this isn't Zion, as you said, John, it's not Zion when some people are hungry and others have more food than they can eat. You brought up Cain and Abel. John, you'll remember this when Dr. Hopkins was with us for those chapters. Sean Hopkins. Yeah, I've never forgotten it. He said the first commandment that Adam and Eve receive after they are cast out of the garden is by the sweat of thy brow, thou shalt eat thy bread. And then the first great lie comes to Cain, which is you don't need to do that. You can just take. You can kill and take.

And get gain. Yeah, I've never forgotten that. What do you call it? The first law and the first lie. Yeah. It's so interesting. During the time when I got into criminal law, it was 2009. And so many people in the field and thinking about crime were writing about sentencing. How do we stop that? And as I was thinking about it, I thought, well, I think we should get into the earlier period where we can prevent crime. How do we do that? And that's why I got into most of my work's been on arrest. The bail decision, how do we stop it before we get people in jail at that early period? And that's why I've dedicated 10 years on bail and police and prosecutors in these early periods.

But as I think now, 16 years into my career in criminal justice, there's an even earlier intervention that I've missed all this time. It works on the front end of criminal justice as well as on the back end. And it's better than anything else. And I think it's highlighted by Nephi as a direct answer to crime. And it's not forgetting God. It's conversion to the gospel of Jesus Christ. I think changing hearts is always more effective to stopping crime than any kind of public policy. And I'm a little embarrassed that as a Christian, you know, how did it take me so long to realize this? I've witnessed where years of ironclad criminal justice research, empirical research, can't convince judges to set lower bail amounts, for instance, for people that are poor.

And I've even presented my own empirical data to them where judges said, I'd rather go with my gut instinct, never mind your research or any of the others. But then I've seen courtrooms where judges are touched when they see somebody who's ministering, a defendant, and they show up to court with them as a ministering brother and sister, someone they don't even know, just to witness this hearing with them and show them love from a local church. And the judges will set lower bail amounts because they're touched by that mercy and love. That's what gets me so excited. And that's why I'm doing this work at the Wheatley Institute at BYU. It's so important to think about that conversion, that change of heart.

John, isn't it fun to have a law professor here with us to go through these chapters? Yeah, maybe I should have slowed down on your bio a little more. A law professor, but tell us again specifically what area of law that you're working in. Yes. So criminal law is my background, but bail, prosecutors, police, violent crime, you name it. That's all the true crime stuff that people get into, but I don't get into. Yeah, because you do enough at work. As we're thinking about crime and pride and people of Christ, I had this debate with my daughter who's five. She came to me and said, mom, are there bad guys? And I said, no, no, there's no bad guys.

And I said that because I didn't want to get into crime and I don't want to scare her because they already have a hard time sleeping at night. And then she asked Isabel, are there bad guys? And Isabel says, well, yeah, there are bad guys. That's why you can't sit in the car alone when I go to Trader Joe's. So she tells her this. She came back to me. She's like, well, mom, you said there's no bad guys. Isabel says there are bad guys. What's true? It really has made me think about this and thinking about being a Christian as well as someone who deals with criminal justice and crime and criminals. And I said to her, you know, June, I think there are no bad guys, but I think there are people who make bad decisions. I believe, and it might be controversial, I don't know what you all think, but I believe that all the people that chose mortality are good. We chose Jesus Christ in the first instance. We accepted his plan.

We accepted Christ. I know that God loves all of us, regardless of how low we've gone, regardless of how long we've been away, regardless of how dark the night is, he wants us to bring ourselves into that light that he can share with us. Our obligation is to love all of our siblings and to try to be one. Shema, I actually love that idea. It's right in line with the gospel. The worth of souls is great in the sight of God. Not some souls.

The worth of all soul is great in the sight of God. It reminded me of a talk that I loved from President Kimball. I'm sure you both have read it. It's Jesus, the perfect leader. It's one I've read multiple times through the years. And at one point, President Kimball says, Jesus saw sin as wrong, but also was able to see sin as springing from deep and unmet needs on the part of the sinner. This permitted him to condemn the sin without condemning the individual.

We can show forth our love for others, even when we are called upon to correct them. We need to be able to look deeply enough into the lives of others to see the basic causes for their failures and shortcomings. That's exactly in line with what you just taught us. I love that so much. People who are listening who have made mistakes, and we all have, don't define themselves by their mistakes. Yeah, that is something I did, but that. People who are listening who have made mistakes, and we all have, don't define themselves by their mistakes. Yeah, that is something I did, but that's not who I am. And that's what the gospel starts on such a basic level. This is who you are.

Now, all of us have done dumb things, but we aren't defined by our dumb things. We should take the gospel definition. This is who I am and who I can become. And I have a Savior and an advocate who can help me when I do dumb things. I love that. I've taught criminal law for 14 years and I give this hypothetical every single year. I tell the students, okay, you're now graduated from law school and you go on this cruise together to celebrate that you've passed the bar and you've become lawyers. You end up on this island and you're shipwrecked there, Gilligan style. No hope for being saved. Eventually things go bad and one of

you kills another. And because you're lawyers, you've created a system of judges and juries, and you effectively through your system, do a trial for the person that killed the other and try them. Your punishment that you dictate for them is death. That's what the judge and jury have decided. So you want to orchestrate the sentence. Then a plane comes to save these people. The plane comes and saves them. And so the question is, it's a very philosophical question I ask the class. What do you do with the punishment that you've orchestrated, but not carried out? There's two options that they all come up to. One is you kill that person that has been deemed a murderer by a jury and judge and then go back on the plane

home. Or you bring them back for punishment at home. The students always go on one of those two. That's the only two options they've ever come to. This year, I had the first, for the first time, my whole teaching experience, I had two brothers. I had this thought as I'm hearing this, and I said, what do you do if the murderer is your brother? He pauses and he says, I wouldn't punish him. I'm not punishing my brother. And I turned to the brother and he says the same thing. And then I say to them, and this was right after a general conference where Elder Suarez had given the talk, Brothers and Sisters in Jesus Christ. And I said, well, are we not all brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ? It really kind of shocked all of us a little bit of none of us want to punish our own brothers, but aren't we all as Christians, right? you think about punishment, we don't think about what if this was my brother or my sister. And I know a Packer, who was meeting with Elder Ivins. And I taught those type of individuals, those type of students who thought,

oh, you make this so hard, you make this so difficult. President Packer, as a seminary teacher, said, how far do we have to go with this boy before we kick him out? Before we say, look, you've got to go. What do we really owe him? Elder Ivins thought for a moment and then said to President Packer, what if it was your boy? And he said, that always stuck with me. What if it was mine? And as you said, we don't want to punish ours. Sometimes we don't see other

people as ours. That's so good. I love it. The next topic I was hoping to move to is more of the subtle pride. As we talk about the root of sin and crime is pride, which is something I always need to work on and think about. Especially John. John is just, oh. Oh, and I'm so proud of that fact, too. Elder Kim Clark gave a really good talk. I'm sure you're very familiar with it.

R.E. Stripped of Pride at BYU-Idaho. And he gives us a lot of the most subtle ways to identify pride. It's actually worth going through them. Some of the deeper thoughts in this are discussed in Helaman in our chapters that we're talking about. But he says, beware of pride, be alert, be on guard on the perils of pride. And he says, may I suggest some things to watch for, some things that would be red flags for pride? Okay, so he goes through 10 things.

I want to think about as we're going through what these are and do a little self-assessment. I did this recently, so it'll be fun. I don't know if fun is the right word here, but I'm willing to do it. My husband and I, we did this on our date night last week. So that's the kind of fun that we're having. Okay. I'm curious what you think. Number one, do you find yourself critiquing the talks in sacrament meeting? Number two, are you critical of others? Do you look down on others? Do you scorn or ridicule them? Number three, when adversity strikes, do you hear the voice inside that says,

why me? Number four, do you react to prophetic counsel by ignoring it, being upset by it, or interpreting it to suit your own desires? Number five, when you do something good, do you hear a voice inside congratulating yourself? Number six, do you feel self-gratification and a sense of importance in your knowledge and skill? Seven,, do you feel self-gratification and a sense of importance in your knowledge and skill? Seven, if someone you know receives something good, do you hear a voice inside saying, what about me? Eight, do you find ways to let others know of your success without appearing to boast? Nine, if someone corrects a mistake you made, do you feel defensive and resentful? Ten, when someone does something that creates inconvenience

for you, do you feel annoyed? I went through this, my husband and I, and I was like, yes, yes, yes, to so many. But I'm curious what you think. What's the hardest one in your opinion? Anything that stuck out to you all? I was like, oh, yes, yes, yes. And now I'm getting worried. I better say no to one of these. But that's why it's so good. It's subtle, right? Right. As you were going through the list, I thought, there's so many of the Savior's parables that hit the ideas. The parable of the laborers in the vineyard. Why are they getting so much? Even today, as we set our recording time, and I was late, as both of you know, there was a voice inside my head as I was, you know, I'm hurrying, I'm hurrying. That said something to the effect of why is your time more valuable than other people's time? And I was like, I know, I know.

That was a good voice. What did you say about inconvenience? Oh, that one is the hardest one. Number 10 is my hardest. When someone does something that creates inconvenience for you, do you feel annoyed? Constantly, right? We're taught to welcome interruptions, that we're trying to do God's will, but yet we have these plans in our minds. And if someone interrupts it, it's like annoyance.

I remember somebody saying that true Christ-like service is seldom convenient. And one of the stories that I love is where Jesus is on his way to heal the daughter of Jairus, and somebody tugs at his garment, the woman, and he stops. The tension of the father of going, can we go? My daughter lies at the point of death. And Jesus has stopped. And Hank, have you ever been going to a fireside where you are speaking and you see someone with a flat tire? Have you faced that dilemma? Because I did, but that was before cell phones. And now I figure everybody can call their elders quorum president or something. But you're going, these people are waiting for me, but I should help you.

But I don't, what do I do? I got to get there and talk about being a good person. Right. Listen, I buy family. I'm going off to tell people about eternal families. I guess I won't be home until you're all in bed. Yeah. Oh, that's so good.

That is tough. I think of just traffic, just traffic. Yeah. That's so good. That is tough. I think of just traffic. Just traffic. I am such a better driver than these people out here. Yeah. It's inconvenient for you to be going the speed limit, right? That's a rough list of questions. It's rough.

I know. The introspection is a good exercise. There's people out there thinking, I'm going to do that for date night because my spouse really needs to go. I know people who really need that list. It's like President Nelson, now you're hearing this and you're thinking, I know someone that needs to hear this, or the peacemaker's talking. Just remember, it's you. Anyway, okay, so moving on, we have Nephi then, he's praying on the garden tower famously. He's praying for the people, bows himself, and people can hear him because he's by this gate that's by a highway. He says that the Gadianton robbers are filling the judgment seats. He's praying with sadness for these people, wishing for better days when the Nephites

first came and that we're righteous. And he says he's consigned that these are my days, that my soul shall be filled with sorrow. And he pours his soul to God. There's this intense sadness he has for his people. For me, there's three lessons that I get out of this experience that he has. And the first one is we should complain about others only to God. I love this lesson that Nephi teaches because rather

than talking to his righteous brother, Lehi, or the Lamanites who are also righteous about the wickedness of his people, what he does is complain to God about their wickedness. And it got me thinking, how often do I complain or vent about the annoyances in my life to other people rather than turning to God with them? If you think about what is the result when I complain to God about other people, when I complain to other people, which is my human nature, when I have grievances with others, I tell people about that. Sometimes I felt good because I've only told one person about something that went wrong for me, like venting. What happens when we do is the listeners

that hear your story, they become angry towards the offender. They think less of them. They might even join me in speaking negatively about the person. I might feel temporarily validated by people, but what I've done is brought someone else down. And I've also succeeded in causing myself as well as others to sin. I've engaged in pride. I've created division. And then there's option two, which is Nephi's option, where he goes directly to God in prayer. He tells him all the details of all the horrible things going on.

God listens to him, instructs him, gives him a more celestial perspective. And we can have that too. We can feel his love by going to him about other people, any complaints we have about our brothers and sisters, people we don't know. And then we can get the validation and peace that only comes from this divine love that God can give us. And let us know we're daughters and sons of God. And that validation is so much better than any human can give you. At that point, you've honored God. You've given him this ability to soothe you as his son or daughter. You value charity over the temporary pleasure or validation of gossip or gaining sympathy from others through building up pride. It's such a great lesson. That first thing he does. I'm like,

he turns to God instead of anyone else. And how often do I forget to turn to God first? I'm reminded when you said that, Shima, I was at some marriage workshop years ago with Dr. John Lund, and he made an observation, sounds exactly like what you started with, that usually we take our problems, our criticisms to our family and our love to God. And he said, why don't we switch that around and take our love to our family and our problems to God? And he actually invites us to do that. My burden's easy. My yoke is light. I mean, come unto me and help me share your burden of your problems and take your love to your family. Easy to say, harder to do.

I remember when I got married to my husband, Ryan, I thought you're married to somebody, gossip's okay within the bounds of marriage somehow. I don't know how I made that up in my head. I've never heard that. And my husband was not okay with that at all because he doesn't do it. He doesn't do it about anyone.

It's one of his superpowers in the gospel. It's been really good for me to be like, okay, well, there's no one to vent to besides God. And it's a good place to be. I'm so grateful I don't have that. Even though at first I was frustrated. I thought, well, that's what you're supposed to do. You're supposed to listen to all of my complaints

about people, but no, that's not godly, right? So- Create a safe place for me to sin. I need, right? I can't sit at home. Where can I sit? Hank, we've mentioned this before, but I think it was Creel Cofford. Am I getting it right? Your name is safe in our home. He used that phrase. That was, I think, a conference talk. Your name and your reputation will be safe in my home. That's a lofty goal because sometimes, yeah, I'm mad at somebody and I want to share it with somebody who's closest to me.

Yes, so good. I love that. Share your anger with those you love. We all know people where you know 100% they don't gossip and you do feel safer with them. Your name is safer with people. My husband's being one. Ryan is so good at this. Everyone knows he would never say an unkind word because he doesn't. and you do feel safer with them. Your name is safer with people. My husband's being one is, Ryan is so good at this and everyone knows he would never say an unkind word because he doesn't, even to me. The second point I had about Nephi in his speech, he is praying for people. And as they hear him, he didn't know they're hearing him, but they do. They're actually some of them willing to

listen. There's people in our lives, some of which are willing to listen. Maybe they've fallen away, but they're willing to listen. And others that maybe aren't. They've kind of completely shut off from any ability to listen. Who are the people in our lives that we're praying for? We can pray for inspiration on how to reach them. And I've prayed for this help.

We have to try carefully sometimes with people that maybe might be offended by trying to share spiritual messages or things like that. But I do believe that God will give us revelation on how to pass messages on to people who might not be a sensitive message to share. And I know President Monson did that. I think some people theorize that he would tell these stories in these meetings, especially to have certain people hear messages. And he did it in this soft, beautiful way, like our Savior did. The Savior told so many stories and parables to share these beautiful messages with people when they weren't ready to hear it directly. A friend recently, as I've been kind of thinking about this, asked, one of her children has fallen away from the gospel. And she thought, he's willing to

read things I sent him. So he's still at the point where Nephi's people, they're willing to listen. And she said, what would you send a child in this situation? And I'm curious your thoughts. But what I thought was, I first said to her, of course, you have the spirit and you will know what to send, you know your child. But something that came to my mind is the gospels. So I would say the five gospels, the four gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and then third Nephi. Because I think for someone who is not versed in religion where they really want to get to know and love our Savior, those gospels really get you to love your Savior. You think of missionaries starting with third Nephi. I recently heard a testimony of an inmate who went to love your Savior. You think of missionaries, starting with 3 Nephi. I recently

heard a testimony of an inmate who went to his chaplain. He was in this low point, obviously in prison, wanting help. And he says to the chaplain, I'd like to read a Bible. And the chaplain says, I'm so sorry, I don't have a Bible, but I do have this copy of the four Gospels. He reads the four Gospels, feels this love of his Savior and becomes converted. And he says, you know, I'm so grateful that actually it wasn't a full Bible. I didn't get to start with Genesis. I got to start with Matthew and got to know my Savior. And he says he worried he wouldn't have kept going if he had started in the Old Testament. When we were back in Alma talking to the Zoramites, he used this phrase that's the favorite of mine, giving place.

If you're willing to give place, open up your heart. That means you're still listening. To be willing to give place and have God talk to you. I think it was Adam Miller who said on a previous podcast, whenever people ask the Savior if they could be healed, he never asked them if they deserved it. His question was just, do you believe? I think both of you would agree that the love of God is more motivating than the judgments of God. If someone is in a place where they're open to the gospel message,

sending them something that is condemnatory will likely push them further away, even though we think, oh, look, this will point out the things that they're doing wrong. It reminds me of Ammon and Aaron. Remember, Ammon comes in and says, I just want to serve. I want to win your heart. And Aaron comes into the synagogue. First began to preach. Yeah. Let's repent. You need to repent. And they respond with, how do you let's repent you need to repent and they respond with how do you know that we have cause to repent right how do you know that we're not a righteous people so i think of messages that will emphasize the mercy of god man i love that gospel's idea shima you said that nephi said these are my days. I have had those four words underlined

because I put in my margin verses, those were the days. These are my days. This is when God sent me to earth. When I look at verse seven and I hear Nephi two, the index calls him Nephi superscript two, because he's not Nephi son of Lehi. He's actually Nephi brother not Nephi, son of Lehi. He's actually Nephi, brother of Lehi, son of Helaman. But he says in verse 7, oh, that I could have had my days in the days when my father Nephi first came out of the land of Jerusalem. Then were his people easy to be entreated. I'm like, have you read 1 Nephi? You know, sounds like those were the days.

But you get in verse 9 verse nine nope these are my days i love the idea that with everything going on heavenly father put us here right now there must be a reason he put you here so you can succeed and these are your days i wrote in my scriptures fondly looking to a better time you know you have nephi fondly looking to a better time. You have Nephi fondly looking to a better time, and then Mormon, who's really looking to a way better time because he's in the end of it, it's even worse. I think that's funny that he does look back to Nephi and forgets all the, remember when Laman and Lemuel tried to kill Nephi? I forgot about that. Boy, then were his people. I'm going, wait, that's not how I remember it.

But maybe he's talking about after Nephi left. Because the footnote says 2 Nephi 5. Okay, that's when we start living after the manner of happiness. I love the idea of these are my days. God put me here. I'm going to read my patriarchal blessing and see what he wants me to do. Profound moment for me in Doctrine and Covenants here, that God suits his mercies according to the conditions of the children of men. Section 46, verse 15, whatever

those days are like, those conditions are like, thankfully, God suits his mercies according to those conditions. I don't know if both of you are Lord of the Rings fans, but there's this moment in the book and in the movie where Frodo is saying, I wish this has never happened to me. I wish the ring had never come to me. I wish it need. I read to my kids, so I do all the voices. Gandalf says, so do I, and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. That's so good. That's good. Yeah. You don't get to decide your time. God did. Yeah.

These people, they are wicked and they're making Nephi very sorrowful. But at the same time, when they hear what he's saying about them, it says that they marveled that Nephi thought they were wicked. They must have been going through the motions of religion somehow. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been surprised. They were probably thinking they were doing things okay. As time progresses, they get more wicked and they don't recognize their wickedness even more. But at this point, they marvel, but at least they're willing to acknowledge, okay, maybe we're doing something wrong and they're willing to listen. It made me think about how sometimes we might be practicing our religion, but failing to be Christians. We might be going along with emotions,

but maybe not being the covenant people. It's easy to fall in this trap where I'm trying to go down my checklist rather than echoing Christ or emulating Christ. I think if I don't read of Christ daily, if I don't remember him and reevaluate often, it's easy to fall in this trap. And that's why we take the sacrament every week and remember that we took on his name because that's our promise to be like him, to remember him. And I was thinking about a story where I fit in this, another sinful Shema story, which I feel like now all the stories I'm sharing are sinful ones, but it's a good one. I remember one night, my husband and I were preparing to go to the temple, which is obviously a good thing. And we're preparing and he's supposed to come downstairs

and I'm waiting there. It's like five minutes and 10 minutes. I'm getting really impatient. And I'm like, what is he doing? I'm so annoyed. Why are you not coming down? So 30 minutes later, he comes down. And by this point, I'm so mad because I'm like, the sitter's here. I'm ready for the temple. You're not here. He comes down. He's been on the phone. And he tells me that his friend who has a drug problem is really having a hard time. And he down, he's been on the phone. And he tells me that his friend who has a drug problem is really having a hard time. And he's not going to go to the temple with me. He's going to go help his friend. In my pride and annoyance, I get annoyed. I get in the car. I'm like huffing and puffing, driving myself to the temple. And then of course, within minutes,

I'm like, what am I doing? Of course, he's doing the absolute right thing. Like, this is exactly what he should be doing. Not coming to the temple with me. He should be helping his friend tonight. And oftentimes, I get in this rut of, I'm practicing my religion. I'm doing these things rather than trying to be flexible like Jesus Christ was. Knowing what I should be doing in that moment, letting the Spirit guide it rather than my to-do list, my plan. We've got a checklist. We forget the outcome that we're after.

Elder Holland gave a talk called Emissaries to the Church in October of 2016. And he said, not long ago, a single sister whom I will call Molly came home from work to find two inches of water covering her entire basement floor. Immediately, she realized her neighbors with whom she shared drainage lines, must have done an inordinate amount of laundry and bathing because she got the backed up water. After Molly called a friend to come and help, the two began bailing and mopping.

Just then the doorbell rang. Her friend cried out, It's your home teachers. Molly laughed. It is the last day of the month, she replied, but I can assure you it is not my home teachers. With bare feet, wet trousers, hair up in a bandana, and a very fashionable pair of latex gloves, Molly made her way to the door, but her stark appearance did not compare with the stark sight standing before her eyes. It was her home teachers.

You could have knocked me over with a plumber's friend, she later told me. This was a home teaching miracle, the kind that they share in general conference talks. She went on. But as I was trying to decide whether to give them a kiss or hand them a mop, they said, oh, Molly, we're sorry. We can see that you are busy. We don't want to intrude. We'll come another time.

And they were gone. Oh, who was it? Her friend called out from the basement i wanted to say it certainly wasn't the three nephites but i restrained myself and said very calmly it was my home teachers but they felt this not an opportune time to leave their message wait you're focused on the task and not the outcome. What is the whole point of ministering? So good. One of the other lessons I love that Nephi teaches us is he's very quick to listen and hearken to the words of the Lord. It talks about that in Helaman 7.7. He's hearkening back to how important it was to listen to the words of the Lord,

even when it's uncomfortable. And you can think it's probably not pleasant for Nephi to be preaching to the people about their need to repent, turning their back on God, but he does it. I had a humbling moment, a couple really humbling moments in the last few years, where I feel like I wasn't quick to hearken to the Spirit telling me to do something. And I was really chastened. And I can tell you one of them because it was public, but there was actually a horrible murder and suicide where a father killed his teenage son in my neighborhood in Salt Lake City. And it happened to be in my ward boundaries. He wasn't an active member of our congregation, but he had attended over the years. So all of us knew him. Before COVID,

I wasn't close to him ever, but I'd known him for years from back to college and I'd interacted with him a lot. We had a lot of mutual friends. We were friendly. And I remember when my husband was elders quorum president, he'd invite him to teach a lesson just to get him at church. And he taught a couple of times and we'd had him over, over the years for nachos after church, which is our tradition. And I remember with COVID, everything social shut down. So we didn't reach out to him at all. I have to admit, when things started picking up socially again, I wasn't excited to have him over. And I ignored several promptings for me to invite him to our house. And I remember distinctly because I would drive by his house and I had this prompting of, I really should have him over. We haven't reached out to him in a long time.

And to be honest, I didn't want to. And I felt this darkness from him. And it was never that we felt unsafe with him in our home. It wasn't that because I think I would have listened to that. But it was not pleasant to have him over. As we think about it with this home teacher example you just gave, serving people is not always pleasant. The gospel is meant to be uncomfortable.

And I can imagine you think of Jesus where he's confronting the man with demons and he's been chained up in a cave. Jesus says, you know, what's your name? It helps him. It's like, do you think that was comfortable for Jesus to go up to that guy who nobody would talk to before he cast all the demons out of him and think I need to get more uncomfortable as a disciple of Jesus Christ? And my heart really sank when I found out

what happened to him and his son. It's not like I blame myself. It's not like, oh, if I had listened to this prompting, I would have saved him. But I do feel very chastened. Now it's cured me. And now I have these promptings and I'm much more quick to listen because of what happened. It's very dramatic. I don't know if you've ever had anything that bad happen after ignoring a prompting, but it's definitely stuck with me. Now I do awkward things all the time when I have promptings because I think, you know what, this could be an important prompting. So I'm going to listen if it's something good, right? If I'm prompted to do something in love. Wow. Thanks for being willing to share that. That's as hard as it gets. Tragic. It is. Yeah. hard as it gets tragic it is yeah yeah there's this great moment we're approaching it here in

chapter 7 verse 13 where all the people have come because nephi's been on this tower praying out loud and everybody's coming to see this what is going on he looks up and he says i've always laughed at this part behold why have you gathered yourselves together? That I may tell you of your iniquities? I can see them all going, no, actually, that's not why we're here at all. Yeah, that's what we were hoping. We were hoping you'd cover that. Go ahead.

Shema, what happens next? Well, so then Nephi really tells them something so good. It's a verse we want to highlight in 720. He says, oh, how could you have forgotten your God in the very day that he has delivered you? It reminds me of how often we pray and pray and pray and ask for a miracle. And then once we get it, then we sometimes just move on. And I had this experience where my husband and I prayed for years for another child. We did a lot to try to get her here, five rounds of IVF, none of it was working. And after lots of years, almost four years and lots of prayers,

we eventually were successful in bringing this baby to our family. And it was so miraculous. And I remember praying every day of my pregnancy for gratitude and after she was born. But I remember by October, she was born in June. And by October, I heard Elder Saban's talk where he says at General Conference, he talks about his daughter who had this double lung transplant. And he said that it went well. And ever since that day, he said, he thanked the Lord morning and night. And that was a number of years ago. And I thought in my mind, I'm like, oh, that's probably like 10 years ago that his daughter had this miracle. Well, I looked it up. It was 25 years ago. So she had that surgery in 1998. And he was praying every day, 25 years for this gratitude, for this ability to breathe.

And it made me reflect of, like Nephi says, how often do we forget the Lord in the day of our deliverance? We forget the miracles that we have in our lives. And that's why gratitude is so important. If we can remember all these miracles and recount them and even visualize them, we get so caught up in whatever the troubles are of today and forget the miracles that God has had for us

in our lives. I love that phrase, live in thanksgiving daily. Great advice, harder to do, but there's always something to be thankful for, I think. John, I don't know if Richard Paul Evans listens to our show, but do you remember? The Christmas box and this story yeah he said a man was patching a pitched roof of a tall building when he began sliding off oh yeah as he neared the edge of the roof he prayed save me lord and i'll go to church every sunday i'll give up drinking i'll be the best man this city has ever known as he finishes his prayer a nail snagged onto his overalls and saved him. The man looked up to the sky and shouted, nevermind God, I took care of it myself. You have forgotten your God in the very second he has delivered you.

Shima, where do you want to go next? The corrupt judges, the Gadianton judges are not loving what Nephi is doing right now. They're like, he's condemning us and speaking against the law. So judges then and now in Judaic law, as well as now, don't have the jurisdiction to take somebody themselves. They can't arrest Nephi. But what they can do is encourage the people. And that's what they're trying to do.

We see this with Alma and Abednego, where the people then turn against the prophet and arrest him. And here they're trying to get that same thing. But the people are willing to listen, which is great. One of the neat things that happens is one of those external validations of the Book of Mormon, which I love, is that from the 1500s on, prosecutors were the ones that would bring cases. But before that, it was the people that would bring cases. But before that,

it was the people that would come and bring them to judges. It was never judges. But it's interesting that in this example, which was something Joseph Smith would never have known, that the people would have brought this crime. This is something that's very clear. And Jack Welsh, my old colleague at BYU Law School, talks a lot about this in his book about legal cases in Book of Mormon. But it's one of those things that you wouldn't know that that's how Judaic law worked, is that the people would have to condemn him. And Joe Smith obviously wouldn't know that. In his day, prosecutors were brought cases. Nephi goes on, we're in chapter eight here. Nephi gives this beautiful sermon to the people, trying to bring them to remembrance of God and their prophets.

He brings up Moses and Zeno and Isaiah and Jeremiah. He reminds them of all their forefathers. There's a lot of value here in Nephi's approach to how he confronts the people in their wickedness. And what does he do? He tells them where they came from. He gives one of the best stories in the Bible. The poisonous serpents are sent by the Lord to help the Israelites remember him. And Moses shows them that there's a way to be saved by these serpents. He says, the Lord tells him, make a fiery serpent, put it on a pole, and he does. And anyone who looks at that serpent will live. At this point, this is the fifth time in the Book of Mormon we're hearing this story. The people must be familiar with it. He's recounting

things that they know about their Savior, that Jesus Christ is the way that they'll live. John, we talked last week with Dr. Nelson about Helaman 5, that Helaman says, I named you after the originals, Nephi and Lehi. If you've read 1 and 2 Nephi, who is Nephi's hero? More than any other story that he goes back to, it's Moses. He's always talking about Moses. So as I've read what Shema has shown us here, I wonder if he's taken that seriously and said, okay, if I'm named after the original Nephi, I'm going to go and see what he has said, written, thought about?

Because he even says, I wish my days were in the days of Nephi. So I wonder if him bringing up Moses, maybe this is a bit of a stretch, but if he got that from studying the life of his namesake. Well, it's very plausible. I have a question for you guys. Helaman 8, 14. Yay, did not he, Moses, bear record that the Son of God should come? Not in the Old Testament, he didn't.

Not in ours. Could that be a plain and precious thing? Because the story of him raising a serpent is there, but there's not of Moses saying, this serpent is a type of Christ who will also be lifted up. And if you look to him, you will live. That's not there. When I answer that question, I say, no, he didn't. He did raise that. Were they supposed to get the hint or is there something on the plates of brass that we don't have? The Book of Mormon speaks so

often of the law of Moses, but it always says, except for one exception, that it was the law of Moses served to point them to Christ. The only guy who showed up and said, no, it has no connection was Sherem. But it's like in the Book of Mormon, they never lost the connection between the law of Moses and it pointing them to Christ. There are missing beautiful truths. So it's great to get that here in the Book of Mormon. The second thought I had with Nephi giving his sermon to the people is he really tries to remind them of who they are. Remembering who you are is key to following Jesus Christ. Think about this divine heritage that they have in this history of faith. And it's something important. Even today, you think about your kids' success. They say having a family mission statement that talks about your family values

is super important because when people forget who they are, and they forget their faith, they're lost. It's almost like when your mother gets mad at you, and she says like your full name, including your middle name, to remind you who you are, this is your family name. I have a family mission statement at our house that sits in my living room. And it starts with, we remember our ancestors and their witnesses of miracles in pursuit of faith and the American dream. Because I want my kids to remember these amazing stories, the miracles that have happened to bring us where they are in their faith. My personal family history starts with my great-great-grandfather on my dad's side, who risked his life traveling from Iran to go on a camel to Mecca, 2,400 kilometers

away. And the group of people he went with, there was a hundred of them, half of them died, and the other half made it. And luckily, my great-great-grandfather made it. And then his mother, my dad's mother, taught herself how to read. She was married at nine, taught herself how to read with the only book in their house, which is the Quran. My mother was a political prisoner. She risked her life. And then also on my husband's side, he had a famous mid-century furniture designer named Milo Boffman. And he decided in the height of his career where he was very successful, he left his business to enter divinity school, where he met a home teacher named Truman Madsen, and then became converted

to the church and decided to risk all that, come to BYU, start the architecture department. These are the stories that ground my family in our faith. They ground us all as people. If you remember, for those of us who have pioneer ancestors, remembering their sacrifices, biblically, thinking the legacy of the prophets that we have and the promises God gave them, and the covenants he made with them that are also applicable to us. That's what grounds our faith. And I love that Nephi gives them this. He's trying to remind them while they're still listening. These are our people. This is Abraham and Moses and Isaiah. Our personal patriarchal blessing can also be such a great reminder of where we came from in remembering to follow him. Shima, you mentioned your ancestors here.

I think our listeners would love to know more. What did your mom call you when she gave your full name? You're not originally a Boffman, right? No, Shima Baradaran. I didn't have a middle name, but coming from Iran, there is this great gratitude I have for the miracles that happened in my family to allow me to find the gospel of Jesus Christ. I mean, I was born in Iran. I lived there until I was seven. I grew up praying as a Muslim. My whole family was Muslim. Everyone in Iran basically is Muslim. I think 98% of people

in Iran are Muslim. I had zero chance to ever be able to find the gospel of Jesus Christ, but for God and his miracles. And my mom was a political activist in Iran. She fought for democracy there and was actually put in prison for speaking against the government, the Ayatollah Khomeini. And she was put in prison. And my dad, who was a neurosurgeon at the time, it was during the Iran-Iraq war. He was doing a lot of work for the government trying to save

lives on the borders of Iran-Iraq where there was a lot of killing. And he was able to do a favor for one of the leaders and the mullahs in the government. And through that miracle, he asked my dad, well, how can I help you? And my mom was in prison and his sister was also in prison. They were able to get out after two and a half years of a 10 year sentence. And then kind of another miracle, we're there. My dad has this opportunity to go research at UCLA. And this is 1986, where no one's leaving Iran. The doors are closed. Everyone's stuck because, you know because we're in this midst of this war that goes into the 90s. And miraculously, we're able to get a visa to come to America. Within a few months, a woman who is a Persian convert to the church in UCLA approaches my dad. And this is another one of those prompting stories where three times she's prompted to talk to him. And she goes up to him the third time. He's at a water fountain. And she, but she doesn't know what to say. And she's nervous because he's Muslim. And she thinks, I can't convert him. And he's going to go back to Iran. They'll kill him. What would I say? But she keeps having this prompting. So she goes up to him and invites

him to her Christmas party. That's how we ended up joining the church and staying in America. We would have gone back after a year of research, but we were able to stay. Such a miracle. I try to remind my kids, remember who you are. You have zero business. I tell my kids, you have zero business being here. I have zero business being in America, but for the work of God and his blessings and his miracles. I'm so grateful. Wow. You think of Lehigh, right? They had no business being in the Americas and they were able to, through the hand of the Lord, come here. So that's a blessing. Wow. Very similar route, right? Almost started in the same general area. Except for the boat and plane, but yeah, similar route. Wow. Yeah. I love the idea of knowing your family history because you can draw strength from it. And knowing those stories about people that went before you and what they did and what they sacrificed, it adds

to our identity. Not just knowing who you are, but this is how my family got to this place. It could be a protection for you. What a cool story, Hank, huh? How often do we hear a story like that? That's amazing. Yeah. I don't think we've had a guest who was born iran but that's significant really special so when you play relatives near me on your phone do you find any no i'm the worst at that game everyone's cousins not related to anyone hillman 8 23 23, he says, And behold, he is God, and he is with them, and he did manifest himself unto them.

And they were redeemed by him, and they gave unto him glory, because of that which is to come. He's giving gratitude before Jesus comes. That's a real important point in the Book of Mormon, where people are grateful for Christ before he's even come, before he's manifested himself. Jesus Christ practiced this. It's something I've studied

with Jesus where he thanks God before the miracle. I don't know if you remember, but when he brings Lazarus back from the dead, he actually thanks God before he brings Lazarus back. It's not after. And I think oftentimes we're quick, hopefully, to thank him after, but we don't thank him before. To me, it sounds a lot like President Nelson's admonition to expect miracles. He says, the Lord will bless you with miracles if you believe in him, doubting nothing. If we do the spiritual work to seek the miracles, expect them to come, be grateful for them before they come. That's the kind of faith that we're aiming for. It's shown here by Nephi, that because of that which is to come, they're already grateful. It's such a beautiful, profound kind of gratitude.

I'm thinking of feeding the 5,000. He does the same thing. Exactly. In all four Gospels, he does that. He thanks God before he hands out any food. Helaman 8.23, in that phrase, they gave unto him glory because of that which is to come, hadn't even happened yet. That shows faith and gratitude at the same time, doesn't it?

You think it's harder to exercise faith in Christ who hadn't come yet to perform the atonement, which is what these people had to do? For us, it's obvious there was a Jesus of Nazareth. I mean, he changed music and art and history since he was born, which is harder to tell your mom that you will clean your room or that you have cleaned your room. If you have cleaned your room, you just open the door and say, behold. But if you know I'm going to someday, and these people believed in a Jesus who was going to come someday, and even were grateful. We're getting to the good part now where Nephi, this is where the drama comes. If you're talking true crime, this is true crime because Nephi is speaking of their sins. He's urging them to repent, talks about the murders that they've

been doing. And then dramatically in verse 27 of chapter eight, Yea, behold, it is now even at your doors. Yea, go ye in unto the judgment seat and search. And behold, your judge is murdered, and he lieth in his blood, and he hath been murdered by his brother, who seeketh to sit in the judgment seat. Is that a drop your mic moment or what? Unbelievable. They're all part of this secret band of Gadianton, which as we know, Satan is the author of it. What happens here, as Jack Welch describes, is almost like a public trial of Nephi, where people are like, okay, you're saying this, and then they're checking. They have these five runners that go out to see if Nephi has spoken the truth. They don't believe

that he is telling the truth. But then when they go and see that the chief judge is murdered, they fall to the earth as if they're dead. They announce it, the murder, and then they're taken to prison because people don't know what's going on. They just see a person killed, and then they're down. So they're accusing the five men of killing the chief judge. Then there's this public proclamation that there's a day of fasting and burial, which is very typical of the culture at this time. They accuse Nephi of being a confederate or colluding with this murder or being an accomplice of murder. And then they try to bribe him in Helaman 9.20 as like, okay, tell us you did this with him so that you won't get punished. He tells him to go to Seantum's house to ask him about the prophecy that he made. And he will admit that he will eventually confess

that he killed his brother once they find the blood on his cloak. Then they're able to incriminate Seantem through his own witness of this spontaneous testimony. And then Nephi's prophecy shows that God has told him what was to happen. And then there's this tangible evidence. So he's able to convict him, so to speak. Anyone who's done any sort of criminal law would say that this is incredible because Nephi knows there's evidence of the murder on the brother's cloak. And the brother then shows fear in his face. He's pale when he's confronted. And it's this incredible scene because God has orchestrated it. I have had the chance to represent criminal defendants. And I have to say, it's very difficult as a lawyer to tell if your client is guilty or not. And I remember when I was working at Legal Aid in Malawi, I represented a group of people who were accused of theft and burglary after a big fight. There was a huge fight over a 50 cent DVD, like not 50 cents, like 50 cent, the rapper. There was a DVD and they were fighting over it

so bad that one of the people's houses got burned down. I got to represent the people who came and allegedly looted and stole a bunch of things that were remaining at this home. I remember having this internal turmoil thinking, are they guilty? I would look at them. I'd watch them. There was a group of like nine of them or so. And I would watch them testify and talk to me. And I was trying to figure out who was lying and who wasn't. And interestingly, there's a great study they did at the University of Chicago. And you can see this, it's called Spot the Liar. It's in the New York Times in 2014. And you can test yourself because they videotape the study. But it's basically, you're trying to tell if someone's lying or not. They give some people lie and other people not.

The point of the study is to show that it's virtually impossible for people to tell if people are lying or not. I do this with my class every year to remind them to be not quick to say, I know someone's lying because they did a certain thing or acted a certain way. We need to not put ourselves in this position to know how something is actually going down because we don't often know the reality of the situations. And this is something that happens with your clients as a lawyer, but it also happens with us judging somebody at church or our neighbor. Be careful. We tell ourselves stories automatically, and we're sometimes not open to the idea that maybe the story you're telling yourself is not the right one.

And most of the time, I feel like I learned that's the case. Most of the time, the judgmental story I told in my mind is far, far from the truth. Coming up in part two of this episode. Actually, I have someone come in who was a former felon. His name is Dave Veroche, the head of the Other Side Academy. He formed it with Joseph Graney, who's also a member of our church.