followHIM - Isaiah 58-66 Part 2 • Dr. Ross D. Baron • Oct. 3 - 9

Episode Date: September 28, 2022

Dr. Ross Baron continues to examine Jesus Christ’s role as our kinsman redeemer in Isaiah 58-66.Please rate and review the podcast!Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the follow HIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producers, SponsorsDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.comBaron, Ross. 2022. Amazon.Com. https://www.amazon.com/Social-Ethics-Church-Christ-Latter-day/dp/3639048253.Baron, Ross. 2022. "Ross Baron". Ensign College Main Site. https://www.ensign.edu/devotionals/ross-baron.Baron, Ross. 2022. "Ross Baron - FAIR". FAIR: "Authorized Messengers And The Gift Of The Holy Ghost". https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/testimonies/scholars/ross-baron.Baron, Ross. 2022. "Ross Baron - "Lessons Learned Living In Israel"". BYU-Idaho. https://video.byui.edu/media/Ross+Baron+-+%22Lessons+Learned+Living+in+Israel%22/0_kqewjuzi/11602882.Baron, Ross. 2022. "Ross Baron: "Old Testament Lessons About The Priesthood"". BYU-Idaho. https://video.byui.edu/media/Ross+BaronA+%22Old+Testament+Lessons+About+the+Priesthood%22/0_u66eezvm.Causse, Gerald. 2022. "Caring For The Poor And Needy In The Growing International Church | Religious Studies Center". Rsc.Byu.Edu. https://rsc.byu.edu/lengthening-our-stride/caring-poor-needy-growing-international-church.Cordon, Bonnie H. 2022. "That They May See". Churchofjesuschrist.Org. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2020/04/42cordon?lang=eng.Eyring, Henry B. 2022. "October 3–9. Isaiah 58–66: “The Redeemer Shall Come To Zion”". Churchofjesuschrist.Org. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-old-testament-2022/41?lang=eng.Hilton III, John. 2022. "The Isaiah Map: An Approach To Teaching Isaiah | Religious Studies Center". Rsc.Byu.Edu. https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-21-no-1-2020/isaiah-map-approach-teaching-isaiah.Hopkin, Shon D., and Ann N. Madsen. 2022. Amazon.Com. https://www.amazon.com/Opening-Isaiah-Madsen-Shon-Hopkin/dp/1944394303/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1EV7LKAGOM7UU&keywords=shon+hopkin&qid=1663705347&s=books&sprefix=shon+hopkin%2Cstripbooks%2C115&sr=1-2.Hoskisson, Paul Y. 2022. "A Latter-Day Saint Reading Of Isaiah | Religious Studies Center". Rsc.Byu.Edu. https://rsc.byu.edu/sperry-symposium-classics-old-testament/latter-day-saint-reading-isaiah.Muhlestein, Kerry. 2022. "Isaiah Resources – Out Of The Dust". Outofthedust.Org. https://www.outofthedust.org/isaiah-resources/.Nelson, Russell M. 2022. "October 3–9. Isaiah 58–66: “The Redeemer Shall Come To Zion”". Churchofjesuschrist.Org. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/come-follow-me-for-individuals-and-families-old-testament-2022/41?lang=eng.Ricks, Stephen D. 2022. "Fasting In The Book Of Mormon And The B

Welcome to part two of Isaiah 58 through 66 with Dr. Ross Barron. Now, guys, we have gone a good while and we've done one whole chapter. And that's kind of how we like it here on Follow Him. We like to go verse by verse, but we can't do that for the entire block. So, Ross, what do you want to do next? I'd love to focus maybe on the Savior, if we could, and talk about a couple of verses in Isaiah 59, and then jump to the Savior's mission in Isaiah 61. Is that okay? That sounds great. So in Isaiah 59, we have another question guiding the chapter. And the idea is that I think the people are basically saying, you know,

why don't you hear us? The kind of similar to Isaiah 58. And the Lord tells you about who he is in verse one, the Lord's hand is not shortened that it cannot save. And here's the parallelism, neither his ear heavy that it cannot hear, right? So you've got his hand not shortened, his ear isn't heavy. And the point is he can save and he can hear. But the problem is there's been rampant iniquity. Your iniquities have separated you. Exactly. And two through eight, really, I mean, it's just horrific. Somebody asked me when Lehi is teaching and they have to leave and he says, you know, were the people that bad? Like, yes. Like read Jeremiah, like they are bad.

And this is a hundred plus years before Lehi leaves. But I mean, you talk about there's murder going on. Verse three, your hands are defiled. You're liars. There's no justice. There's your vanity is going on. And then we've get this great stuff about they're trying to cover themselves, fake counterfeit atonements with other kind of gods. Their feet, verse 7, run to evil. They haste to shed innocent blood. The way of peace they don't know. I love this verse in verse 14. Judgment is turned away backward.

What an interesting way to say justice standeth afar off. So it's like you've got this personification of justice. And by the way, justice is always masculinized and mercy is always feminized. So I'll use the personal pronoun he. So justice is, he is standing outside. He's going away backwards because they've just rejected justice. And justice is a huge deal for Isaiah. So it's another fun way to read Isaiah chapter one through 66 is to look at how serious the Lord is about justice and how he ties that. So the word for justice, mishpat, is very similar to, so the word melchizedek, Zedek, is righteousness. And righteousness and justice are paired always.

God loves justice, and he pairs that with righteousness. And so this is the situation. And then verse 16, and he saw that there was no man, wondered that there was no intercessor. Therefore, his arm brought salvation unto him and his righteousness, it sustained him. So the Savior intervenes. The Savior's got to make the intervention. And then sometimes we read a scripture that's super famous in Ephesians 6 about the armor of God. And we think, wow, Paul thought of that. And I'm not saying Paul didn't

do amazing with it, but here we have an Isaiah, the savior put on righteousness as a breastplate and a helmet of salvation upon his head. He put on his garments of vengeance for clothing was clad with zeal as a cloak. The students were reading in the old Testament. Let's say God's a jealous God. And I go, don't equate human jealousy with God like jealousy. His jealousy is a zeal for your salvation. His jealousy is he will do everything and anything for your salvation. It's not jealousy. Like, oh, I'm jealous because so-and-so like kind of the drama of a high school romance, right, gone awry. We're not talking about that. We're talking about a zeal for our salvation. I always like to say God is in the people business.

God is in the people business, and he has a zeal for our salvation, and that is what he's about. And so I love that he puts on breastplate of righteousness, the helmet of salvation. He clothes himself with a cloak and he has zeal for our salvation. Unbelievable. And then he's going to do everything possible and including some of that is going to be to scatter. Some of that is to create some recompense. Verse 18, according to their deeds, accordingly, he will repay fury to his adversaries, recompense to his enemies, to the islands, he will repay recompense. But eventually we get the, he always, I love the way how Isaiah will couple the destruction and like you quoted 2 Nephi 26, 24, which is one of my favorites. He doesn't do anything save it be for the benefit of the children of men, including

the scattering, including that. So in verse 20, and the redeemer shall come to Zion and unto them that turn from transgression and Jacob, saith the Lord. So you got the nature of the savior who's going to intercede. He's got the character. He's got the attributes. He's got the perfections to do it. Symbolically, it's been used kind of as the armor of God, and the Savior is the absolute epitome of that. And he can reverse this kind of situation where even justice is standing afar off and

walking away backwards. It can be redeemed. What a dramatic chapter. I mean, it sets up this terrible situation, verse after verse after verse of how bad it is. And he's arming himself. He's ready to come in and turn the whole thing around. Then to any who want to repent, verse 20, any who will turn from transgression in Jacob. That's an awesome chapter that I don't think I've ever seen that way before, Ross. That's really fun. I love to frame it that way. Like, here's the horrible situation. What are we going to do? What are we going to do? Even justice walks way backward of standing outside, man.

But the Savior will intercede. There's going to be consequences. Choices have to matter. But those choices, again, whatever he has to do to them is ultimately for their benefit. If they'll turn from transgression, he can then redeem them. He is our kinsman redeemer. That is the covenant relationship we have with him. Isaiah totally tapped into that idea. He is our kinsman redeemer. He has to redeem us. He's been given the double portion and the whole point of the double portion is to use it to redeem the family,

to bring us back to the family of God. And that's what's going on. Anyway, that's how I see Isaiah 59. So that's beautiful. Hey, can I throw something in here? When you said, Ross, that judgment is characterized with the male pronoun, I thought of Alma talking to a son, Corianton. I'm in Alma 42, 24. And Alma says to Corianton, for behold, justice exerciseth all his demands and also mercy claimeth all which is her own. And thus none but the truly penitent are saved. And I've always thought, well, look, justice is a male. Mercy is a female there. And I guess consistent in the Book of Mormon, there's justice being called male

and mercy being called a female. I'm a 42-24. I just thought it was cool. I always tell my students, Joseph Smith's the world's greatest guesser. Man, did he get a lot right. Just knew his Hebrew so well at that time. In 1829, he knew his Hebrew so well. That's right. That's the book you got to write, Joseph Smith's Greatest Hits. Over and over and over again. Over and over and over again. So are we going to 61 next?

I wanted to go to 61, but I can't help myself. Can I do a verse in 60? Absolutely. I can't help myself. I'm sorry. So I have dealt, when you read my intro, I've dealt for years and years going to, I'll go to different colleges or different divinity schools and kind of get in the ring, as it were, with those that are antagonistic towards the church. And I did a series of community firesides in Southern California. The first one was, there was a whole anti thing going on in our town.

I was serving as the bishop at the time and a man came to me in my ward and said, we got to do something. And I said, well, we generally don't respond, but it was pretty intense. And so I said, well, let me think about it. So I went to our stake president and I said, Hey president, what do you think if we had a fireside, but I want to do this different. He's like, well, what do you think? And I said, what if we like took out radio ads and quarter page ads and newspaper? And what if now here's the thing I'd be happy to speak about us being Christians, but here's the wrinkle. I want to do a Q and a afterwards, like open forum Q and a, and they can ask me any question, historical, theological, or doctrinal, like it's okay. I say, well, let me, let me think about that. So anyway, he goes, okay,

we're going to do it. So literally took out ads in the newspaper, radio ads. And then we personally invited the mayor of the city council, all the local priests and teachers and rabbis. to be at seven o'clock. So I was eating dinner with my family and I said, honey, I'm going to go to the community fireside. And she goes, oh, you're going a little early. I'm going to walk over there. So I walk over there and the parking lot is full. And I thought they've planned another activity. So bummed. So I go through the stake presence office and I said, president, what's going on? And he looked at me and goes, this is going on. You better be good. You better be good. So 1400 people showed up for the first community fireside. Wow. So they'd opened it up. There was people sitting actually overflow in the Relief Society room, but it was just packed and there was just electricity, right? And the row in the back

of the chapel was taken up by this particular church that had really been riding it hard. And so I give my talk, we have a hymn, do all that thing. And then we do the Q&A and the Q&A is just going, it's just amazing. And so finally my stake president, I mean, the Q&A went for quite a while. I thought people would leave, no one left. Finally, he kind of signals to me, you know, take your last question. The lead pastor for this anti-church is sitting on the back row of the chapel, not all the way back in the cultural hall. And he raised his hand. I said, yes. And he goes, I have a quote here from Brigham Young that proves categorically that Latter-day Saints are not Christian. And then he reads this quote essentially that says that if you don't accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, you can't go to the celestial kingdom. And he goes, clearly then these people aren't Christians. What do you have to say to that? So I'm standing there and I prepared like enormously for this thing, but I can honestly say I had not prepared for that.

But I did do a section 84 verse 85. I had treasured up in my mind continually the words of life. And I can honestly tell you both that I had yet given to me in the very moment. And so what I'm going to say is nothing to do with anything I did, but this is what happened. So he's standing there and you can imagine 1400, 1300 plus people are looking and he's got the question by the way he literally had a laptop with the latter-day saint info base on his laptop so he could pull up quotes and hand them out so that they could try to stump us so here's the last question i'm standing there not a you could hear a pin drop and i said i will be happy to answer your question but let me ask you one

particular question first. And he goes, okay. I said, imagine you're living in Jerusalem, AD 33. It's the day of Pentecost. Christ has risen from the dead and it's now Acts chapter two. He's like, okay. I go, you're familiar. Yes, absolutely. I said, okay. Now, Peter is preaching Christ and him crucified. Can you reject Peter and accept Christ? Now, this guy pauses because I had the opportunity of what Jesus did to the Pharisees. He always out-Pharise to the Pharisees. He always out Phariseed the Pharisees because if he says, I can reject Peter and accept Christ, what do you do with the Bible? You throw it away. If he says, no, you can't reject Peter and accept Christ, then he knows that's the position we're in.

And he didn't say anything. And so I said, just like you couldn't reject Peter and fully accept Christ in AD 33. So in the latter days, you cannot reject the modern day Peter, the prophet Joseph Smith and fully accept Christ. And 1,350 people went, it was awesome. And I mean, it was as if I was standing, I have to tell you guys, it was like I was standing outside myself watching that happen. You're thanking the Holy Ghost, just going, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you.

I want to be as sincere and as clear as possible that I did not think of that or come up with that. That was given to me in the very moment. And it was one of the most amazing experiences. And so in Isaiah chapter 60, verse 14, there's a prophecy Isaiah makes. And he says, the sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee. And all they that despise thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet. And they shall call thee the city of the In other words, I see the parallel between Joseph who was sold into Egypt, who has prophesied that they're going to bow down to you. And there's no way that prophecy could be fulfilled.

But of course it is. In the latter days, the church has been despised, ridiculed. It's the constant source of anti-presses and all kinds of things. But guess what? The day will come when those people will bend the knee and those that despise us will bow themselves down at the soles of the feet. And I don't mean to say that in a proud or arrogant way. No, not ha ha, ha. Because just, no, not ha, ha, ha. Just like Joseph then embraced his brethren, so Joseph Smith will embrace those because they will turn from transgression

and then God can redeem them. So we don't have to wring our hands, let the antis do what antis do. We do what we're supposed to do. And every now and then you'll get an opportunity to be in a position where I was in a position to have that amazing experience. But I love this verse in Isaiah 60. And sometimes we blow by it because, you know, it's, but boom, I think that's amazing. Wow. It's beautiful. Yeah. He goes on to say, I will make thee an eternal excellency.

Eternal excellency. Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? You'll know that I am the Lord, your savior. That's right. Yep. And I feel like, Ross, that's all the more reason to be as charitable as we can in those moments. We're not antagonistic. We're not burning bridges because of that prophecy right there. Wow. I'm going to remember that story. That's amazing. We don't want to be proud. We don't want to be arrogant. We want to embrace, we want to invite, but like Elder Maxwell said, we don't want to let people have uncontested slam dunks. And so sometimes you do have to respond as guided. And I tell that story too, because it wasn't, I mean, I had priesthood keys behind me and it was a beautiful thing.

So, yeah. And I love the ending there in 60, 14, that you'll, everyone will be welcome in Zion. And again, those that turn from transgression, God embraces them. Come to Zion. Yeah. Come to Zion. A note, there is a Joseph Smith translation in verse 22, a little one shall become a thousand, a small one, a strong nation. I, the Lord will hasten it in my time. So I always like to point out with my

students, make sure you find your Joseph Smith translations, because that is going to help you understand Isaiah and also will be evidence of the divine mission of the prophet Joseph Smith. So in our 58 through 66 that's our first jst right there that's the first jst in the segments that we're looking at today correct that's the first jst we're going to look at in the section and in my time and that's that whole concept that isaiah brings up earlier i'm not covering in these chapters of waiting on the lord right i'm going to hasten in my time so So beautiful, beautiful idea. Okay. So Isaiah 61, perhaps one of the greatest on par with Isaiah 53, in my view. And we would take the students

when we went to Nazareth, we would take the students of course, to the church of the annunciation. But I was not as thrilled with the church of the annunciation as I was with this little teeny church. You know, you come out of the church Annunciation, you turn right, you go through a shuk, a marketplace, and then there's this kind of crusader church over where the synagogue was, where Jesus reads Isaiah 61 out of the Bible. And this is Luke chapter four, verse 19. This is, I mean, I'm stretching a little here, but I call it Jesus opening his mission call. This is the savior opening his mission call. And he's in Nazareth. It's his hometown, right? They know he's the carpenter's son. And of course he reads these incredible verses and where he lays out, I mean, basically this is his mission. John, would you mind reading? I would love to read this. Would you read verse one and two, and then we're going to talk about it,

but we've got to read three. We've got to read some of these other verses, please. I'm glad we're reading this. In our Come Follow Me manual, it specifically mentions this verse in kind of the opening statement. It says, early in his earthly ministry, Jesus Christ visited a synagogue in Nazareth, the village where he was raised. There he stood to read from the scriptures,

opened the book of Isaiah, and read what we now know as Isaiah 61, 1 and 2. He then announced, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. When I set this up in my class, I like to ask them, What's the best Old Testament verse you can think of to describe the Savior? And then I don't even know what it is. So then

I always say, well, we don't have to look because Jesus chose the verse for us. He chose the one to describe him and the minister gave him the, or probably he asked for it. And this is what he read. So Isaiah 61 verse one, the spirit of the Lord God is upon me because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek. He hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all that mourn. Wow. Wow.

So, I mean, there's just so much here in terms of the Savior's mission. By the way, this comes, the Spirit of the Lord God is upon me. I think we need to make sure we understand in John chapter three, verse 34, the savior, well, John is talking about he, for he, whom God has sent speak at the words of God. And then this phrase for God giveth not the spirit by measure unto him. Now there's a

Joseph Smith translation in John three 34 for God giveth him not the spirit by measure for he dwelleth in him, even the fullness. So the spirit of the Lord God is upon me. We need to realize that the savior in collusions chapter one and chapter two talks about the Holy ghost and the father dwelling to the degree that the Father can send his spirit with the Savior in a magnificent way to be able to enable him to do the things he could do. And then he's the anointed of the Lord. So when we talk about the Lord's anointed, we might talk about the prophet, but ultimately we're talking about Jesus. And this goes to the Greek Christos, which essentially is the Hebrew Messiah, which both have to do with the fact that you're the anointed. You're the anointed one.

So he is the anointed one to save us. And what's he going to do? I love these verses. He's going to preach. He's going to bind up. He's going to proclaim liberty. He's going to open prison doors. He's going to proclaim and he's going to comfort.

And to whom will he do it this is these are the beautiful parallels the meek the brokenhearted the captives them that are bound and all that mourn i mean everyone's included i don't know about you guys but when i teach third nephi 11 and when the savior or third nephi 17 and well 11 and 17 but in 17 he says you know are any of you any among you afflicted in any way come right. Come to me. And I think, well, I might not be halt or maimed, but I'm going. Yeah. Or I think it was, or in any other manner, in any manner I'm going, it could be my heart. It could be my mind. What's the hymn, the wound concealed, right? Like I'm going up, I'm going to go up. And so there's no one who's

left out here in terms of who the Savior will minister to if you want to be ministered to. And so this is his mission. This is incredible stuff to ponder about who the Savior is, comfort all to mourn. As we started, we talked before we hit the record button about that we hoped people would feel the Lord's healing influence. And if they think of God as laws and commandments and judgment, yeah, that's a part of it. But here when Jesus chose the verse, but in the Luke 4, where he reads this, it says to heal the brokenhearted. And I think of all the things the Savior wanted to announce when he got there, he came to heal broken hearts. And of all the things he could have said, he chose these beautiful words from Isaiah to announce his ministry. Before you read three and four, but

that was the custom, right? The synagogue, you read a verse, but then don't you sit down and make a comment? And what happened there? Well, Luke 4 is amazing because he says, this day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. And they don't like it. And one of the reasons they don't like it is when he gets done with the Sermon on the Mount, the comment Matthew makes, who's a Jew, he makes the comment that he taught them as one having authority and not as the scribes. And what he means by that is that scribes and rabbis will always use other rabbis and rabbinic commentary

to comment, but Jesus doesn't do that. He's his own authority. So what Matthew is saying is he taught as one of, as having authority, meaning he doesn't need to get a rabbi to back him up. He doesn't go get a reference. Yeah. He doesn't need a reference. He is the reference. He is the word. So when they're all in that synagogue and you can imagine the spirit you must've been feeling, and it says, in fact, Luke, I believe four says their eyes were fastened upon him. And then he says this day, the scriptures have filled in your ears. I am this right here. This is me. And so, but then they want to take him to the brow of the hill and they want to kill him. And of course he passes out and that what's very, it passes among through among them. And what's really interesting in terms of the dynamic, he essentially leaves Nazareth and moves to Capernaum and then Capernaum becomes the

headquarters, early headquarters of the church. And Capernaum becomes the early headquarters of the church, which is on the northern part of the Sea of Galilee. So I love that, how he leaves Nazareth. He basically has to leave Nazareth and then makes Capernaum kind of the platform from which he will then preach the gospel. So that's why that's so significant there. I think these verses are so critical. I hope our listeners will go read them for themselves. Isaiah 61, 1 and 2. Go read them and read it slowly like John did there. Think about all these beautiful words and how Isaiah put them together.

John, I wanted to just read a little bit more out of the manual. Whoever wrote the manual this time around, I got to give a shout out because it's beautiful. It says this, like many other prophecies of Isaiah, continues to be fulfilled in our day. The Savior continues to heal all the brokenhearted who come unto him. There are yet many captives to whom deliverance must be preached. And there is a glorious future to prepare for. A time when the Lord will create new heavens and new earth and cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all nations. Those are both Isaiah quotes.

And then this last sentence, reading Isaiah opens our eyes to what the Lord has already done, what he is doing, and what he will yet do for his people. Hank, I love what you said, if I may, about reading slowly. So I teach a Hebrew class and we'll spend a day on one verse. And students in the beginning will be like, gosh, who can spend a day on one verse? And I'm not saying we should read all scripture that way, right? But sometimes we go to a gospel doctrine class and it's like, today we're going to do Jeremiah one through 47.

No, you're not. No, you're not. You're actually not going to do Jeremiah 1 through 47. So I think what you said, I love that idea. So take Isaiah 61, read those two verses, break it out, parse it, think about it, ponder it. There will be a spirit that will accompany that. There really will be. And so we don't have to get the volume in perhaps, but boy, this is power. Like I love John, what you said, what's your favorite old Testament scripture about Jesus? Well, Jesus is telling you what his favorite old Testament scripture about him. He chose it. And so if somebody was saying, wow, okay, I can do two verses in Isaiah. Let me, well, these would be rich, fertile field. And I love the idea from the manual. It was fulfilled and is being fulfilled and will continue to be fulfilled.

Part of the amazing thing about Isaiah is it's past, present, and future. Yeah. Yeah. It's still going. Bruce R. McConkie said, Isaiah is above all else, the prophet of the restoration. First time I heard that, I thought, what? But so many of these things are still being fulfilled and are still underway. And it helps us to see Isaiah that way. This is still relevant today. Well, 2 Nephi 6 verse 4 tells us that he says he sees things as they really are and as they really will be as they are to come. So that's exactly right. So Nephi was able to tap into that as well. But I love this conversation and the comment to take

it slow. It's okay. You don't always have to read that 17 chapters. Take two verses and slow down. That's a beautiful thing. Can we read verse three too? Yeah, I was going to say, you're almost like, oh, I wish he could have kept going there in Nazareth. Yeah, please. To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes. That's poetry. Yeah, this is beautiful, right? The oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness, that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified. My goodness. Yeah, verse 3.

It's not poetry. It's some of the best poetry. It's some of the best. It's rich. It's incredible. And it's amazing that God can do that. It can take something like ashes and turn it into beauty. Can take some of the,

it's what do they say, sweet are the uses of adversity. Some of the hardest things can result in beautiful blessings. God is so good at doing that when we turn to him. And I know I've heard Elder Hafen use that phrase in one of his talks about beauty for ashes. And so when I saw beauty for ashes, I thought of Elder Hathen there. I thought of Elder Hathen too, by the way, when you said that. And the idea of the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness. We live in a world of sarcasm, a world of criticism, finding fault, and this idea of the garment of praise. I think Elder Maxwell used to talk about this phrase, the garment of praise instead of the spirit of heaviness. And then if I may, that they might be called trees of righteousness. I love trees and I've thought a ton about this and I want to be a tree of righteousness. I want to be the planting of the Lord.

Like, you know, and I think of Russell M. Nelson, the man is a massive Oak tree whose roots go down to the center of the earth. He is literally a Redwood. Like I wrote some things down about trees. Trees always grow toward the light. Trees require opposition to thrive. Trees are best grown in forests, not in isolation. Trees draw strength from previous generations of trees.

Did you guys know that? So Marlon Jensen, you remember Elder Marlon K. Jensen? He gave a talk where he discussed the sacred grove. And he said, he mentioned the story, I'm paraphrasing, that some odd years ago, they had this idea to kind of clean out the grove, like get rid of all the kind of fallen trees, clean out the grove, you know, so visitors can have nice clean pathways. And they did.

And it started to create havoc in the grove. It actually diminished the vitality of what was going on in the sacred grove. And then these arborists came along and were like, well, yeah, you can't do that. Why would you do that? And we wanted to clean it up. And they were like, no, no, no, no. The previous generation of trees that have died actually provide rich, rich nutrition and growth for these younger trees. So trees draw strength from previous generations of trees. Trees bear fruit. Trees provide shade. Trees point upward. Trees use the power of the sun to provide oxygen for life. I mean, so trees of righteousness, oh my word, here's the savior's mission versus one and two, right? And then he's going to give me, I'm in a morning Zion, right? I'm repentant. So I'm going to get beauty for ashes. I'm going to get oil of joy. I'm going to get the garment of praise. What does it result? It means that Hank and John become trees of righteousness,

the planting of the Lord. So now other people, I'm a little weak in my faith, but I can get shade under your tree. I can temporarily use your tree-ness, that's not a word, but to bless my life. The Savior says, you're going to be the light of the world. You're going to be the salt of the earth. You're going to be leaven. Well, this is another one, trees of righteousness, the planting of the earth. You're going to be leaven. Well, this is another one, trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord. You know, years ago, I read this book about teaching. I can't remember the author, but this guy was talking about trying to teach his children. One of Hank's favorite chapters that he often mentions is Jacob 5, the Zenos's allegory. And finally, this kid in this

moment of inspiration, as dad's trying to do this home evening about Jacob 5, he goes, oh, I get it. Trees are people. Because over and over where the Lord of the vineyard says, it grieveth me that I should lose this tree. And he finally, trees are people. And then you see Isaiah, even having the Lord as a lumberjack in one case. He's going to come and hew down the mighty, the cedars of Lebanon. There's mighty trees, but trees of righteousness. So the footnote is there, Hank. Topical guide, vineyard of the Lord.

And I thought of you because I know how you love Jacob 5. I did. I didn't love it as a kid. It was so long. It was one of those where you're like, we're going to be here all day. And Isaiah does that too. Isaiah 5 is at the- Yeah, 2 Nephi 15, Isaiah 5.

What more could I have done for my vineyard? It sounds like Jacob 5. And it grieveth me to lose any tree. So I like this. Yeah. I bet Elder Oaks likes this one. Don't you think? The trees of righteousness.

Yeah. And probably the branch president. That's good. Thank you. Thank you. That's our- welcome to follow him. No, but thank you for those Ross. I'm sorry. Thank you for that. They grow towards the light. They benefit from previous generations. Yeah. There's so much there. They grow toward the light. They require opposition to thrive. I know that you gave

a timeout for women where you talked about this guy that had the Venus flytrap plant or something. Oh, my goodness. That's right. You talked about pure water, pure light, and it has to have adversity. It has to have a cold period. He called it Brother Wilson in my ward. Thank you. And so trees that require opposition, they're best grown in forests, not in isolation.

I get these kids sometimes, you know, like, Brother Barron, I'm in like the annoying first ward. And I'm always like, awesome. That's so great that you're in an annoying ward. And like, what do you mean? I said, listen, the ward and your family are the laboratory where you can develop faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility, and diligence. Like you don't get those in isolation. And people, I just go, I love this one. I just go up on a mountain and I take my scriptures and that's where I'm spiritual.

Yeah, of course, lame-o. Like who wouldn't be spiritual alone on the top of a mountain? Now, but go live in a ward and go associate with people you wouldn't otherwise associate people. Go have teenagers and now live the gospel of Jesus Christ. And that's where you're going to develop those attributes. So the idea of trees of righteousness, trees do not grow well in isolation. They need to be with other trees because they provide some of that opposition. So I love that. I literally want to be the planting of the Lord. I I love that. And I want to, I literally want to be the planting of the Lord. I just think that versus the planting of the Lord is just, it's amazing. And, and I, again, I look at the first presidency, you know, Dallin H. Oaks and Henry B. Eyring with

President Nelson, and they are trees of righteousness. They are the planting of the Lord. And I hope they wouldn't be offended by that. I don't mean that in any way irreverent. I mean, that is absolute compliment to them. If we look at verse 10, we have these beautiful ideas that the Lord kind of will kind of keep reemphasizing here. I will greatly rejoice in the Lord. My soul shall be joyful in my God. He's done all these things for us.

We've got the mission of Jesus. For he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation. Okay. So I'm clothed. He has covered me with the robe of righteousness. Kafar. I know you guys have talked about this on the come follow me podcast so far that we're being covered, which essentially is the Hebrew word for atonement. Yom Kippur is the day of covering. You brought up Alma 42, but I also love Alma 34. If I repent, if I don't repent, I'm exposed. If I do repent, I'm encircled. So naked versus clothed, just different ways of saying it. So here he's saying, I'm clothed with the garments of salvation. I've covered me with the robe of righteousness.

How? Like a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels. Wow. Again, this beautiful poetry of me turning from transgression, accepting what the Savior's offered me, his mission. And now I'm getting everything he said in verse three. As I move to the Savior and he covers me, it's just another way of saying I get beauty for ashes, oil of joy for mourning, and garments of praise for the spirit of heaviness. Right?

I think it's just, he's just reiterating what he's saying. And we're learning more and more. We're being persuaded to believe more in the Lord, our Redeemer. I think that's what's going on there. Sounds a little like Ammon. I will boast of my God. I will greatly rejoice in my Lord. Love that. In Isaiah 62, if you don't mind, I think I sometimes like to look at, so what is God asking me to do? Like, so here's what the savior's mission, here's a prophetic mission. Here's the church's ultimate destiny. This is what's going to happen to Zion, but what do I need to do? So you go to chapter 62 and verse 10.

I think the Lord gives this quick one verse, and I think it's a beautiful verse about what I'm to do. Hank, would you be okay reading that? 62 10, go through, go through the gates, prepare ye the way of the people, cast up, cast up the highway, gather out the stones, lift up a standard for the people. Wow. So Isaiah has a gift in one verse. He gave me some great stuff. It's the imperative, go through, go through. And what am I to go through? I'm going through the gates. Now, I know that Isaiah was writing in 740 to 700 BC, gates, sha'arim, right? Sha'ar is gate. It's the critical point of any city. It's the pathway by which you entered. I want to suggest to you that he's using this as a double metaphor, that the gate is literally entering into covenants with our heavenly father.

So before I can truly help in the work, I've got to enter in by the gate. I've got to participate in ordinances. Go through, go through. That's imperative. It's a command form. What am I to go through? Go through the gates. You've got to get into the ordinances.

And then once I get through, I can now prepare the way of the people. I'm going to now turn to others. How am I going to do that? I got to make the highway smooth for people, gather out the stones. And then I've got to lift up the standard. I've got to be a proclaimer of truth. You know, I love the recent, the missionary department loves share and invite. So how do I lift up a standard for the people?

I love my neighbors. I share organically the gospel whenever I have an opportunity and I invite. That's how I do it. How do I cast up the highway and gather out the stones? I believe by me repenting, by me being a better person. I don't have to worry about other people. I'm going to cast out the stones in the highway by I have to become a better person. I love to look at some of these verses in terms of what is it we can do.

And I think that's super practical. I was just reading in the contemporary English version. You know, we talked about using our tools beforehand. And it says, people of Jerusalem, open your gates, repair the road to the city and clear it of stones. Raise a banner to help the nations find their way. I like that. Same here. Help people find their way.

The idea of a standard has always been fascinating to me because you get invited to speak at a standards night. You think, am I talking about the basketball standard? What am I talking about? The idea of that, of being a flag or a banner that says, this is whose side I am on. This is who I represent. This is who I am as a person, or this is my people. And to raise that standard, the opposite of stand is to shrink or buckle or wilt or compromise. So to stand for something, I just love the idea of raise a standard. And I like that banner, an end sign in another place, probably. Here's the gathering point, or here's who we are, and here's where we're going to gather so that we can march. I love the idea of a standard as a statement of this is who we are type of a thing. It's uncompromising. It's the rallying point. And there's a certain uncompromising thing.

And right now the world hates that. And even a lot of our students are concerned about that, but that what you said, there's no shrinking, there's no compromise. It is the standard. And by the way, again, going back to 2 Nephi 26, 24, Hank, because that will be the benefit for the children of men. That'll bless us. He even says in verse 12, you'll be sought out. People want that standard. That's exact. And by the way, that standard that we see, obviously we could talk about some of the nature, but the proclamation of the family is a standard. And I love, John, how you said that.

It's uncompromising. It's a rallying point. Let me give you, give us a footnote for that. And this was a youth theme a few years ago. Section 115 of the Doctrine and Covenants, verse 5, arise and shine forth that thy light may be a standard for the nations. Awesome. That is perfect.

Ross, I'm looking at the rest of the chapters here, 63 through 66, and according to the chapter headings, at least, we are talking second coming. Is that right? We are. And not only are we talking about second coming, we're talking about kind of the ultimate triumph of Zion. We're talking about the second coming. We're also talking about the millennium. And I'd like to comment just about Isaiah 63. Isaiah 63, the first couple of verses are like a Q and A. And then the Savior makes this, I think,

really important comment in verse three, I have trodden the wine press alone. And of the Savior makes this, I think, really important comment in verse 3. I have trodden the winepress alone, and of the people there was none with me, for I will tread them in mine anger and trample them in my fury. Their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments. I will stain all my raiment. When I was in Israel, and those of you have been, you know that there's these massive winepresses. And the idea that one person would tread a wine press is ridiculous. They just don't do that. Isaiah is making a stark image that would have resonated with them at that time, but maybe now people don't fully get what that means. And I just love this idea of him treading the wine press alone. If I could read from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, April 2009, General Conference entitled None Were With Me.

I remember that. Yeah. I speak of the loneliest journey ever made and the unending blessings it brought to all the human family. I speak of the Savior's solitary task of shouldering alone the burden of our salvation. There is the idea of alone. Rightly, he would say, and then Elder Holland quotes Isaiah 63.3, Thus of divine necessity, the supporting circle around Jesus gets smaller and smaller and smaller. He had to feel what it was like to die, not only physically, but spiritually,

to sense what it was like to die, not only physically, but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally, abjectly, hopelessly alone. Because Jesus walked such a long, lonely path, utterly alone, we do not have to do so, unquote. Again, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, none were with him, April 2009 General Conference. That is just so powerful. And then the phrase in verse 9 in terms of the second coming, but also in terms of what he suffered and what he did. Jesus says, or Isaiah testifies, in all their affliction, he was afflicted. This is maybe one of the more powerful verses that in all their afflictions, he was afflicted. And then, of course, we do have second coming things here. And then after the second coming, I think this is this idea where he's going to testify to us that doubtless you are our father, that there is this idea that he is our father. There is a Joseph Smith translation in verse 17 that I think we need to focus on just for a second. Oh Lord, why is that? I'm reading the King James. Why has thou made us

to err from the ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear? Return for thy servant's sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. And then the Joseph Smith translation at footnote A, oh Lord, why hast thou suffered us to err from thy ways and to harden our heart? In other words, we're the ones who choose to harden our heart, not the saints. Agency, yeah. Yeah, agency. So again, just Isaiah 64 is this kind of, I think, eternal prayer that the righteous

have throughout the ages. And the prayer is, of course, O that thou wouldst rend the heavens, that thou wouldst come down, that the mountains might flow the ages. And the prayer is, of course, oh, that thou wouldst rend the heavens, that thou wouldst come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence. I would alert your listeners to section 133 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Starting in verse 40, going, say, all the way to verse 53,

Joseph Smith in a revelation basically reorders and even reworks some of the verses in Isaiah 63 and 64. So I think if somebody wanted to do that on their own, I would say it's not a correction as much as it is just an alternative way the Lord wants us to look at it. Does that make sense? So in D&C section 35, when Sidney Rigdon shows up with Edward Partridge right after they've been baptized in Kirtland, in verse 20, the Lord gives a revelation and says that, Sidney, you're to write for him, for Joseph, in the Joseph Smith translation, you're going to write for him

the things which are in my bosom for the salvation of my saints in the latter days. In other words, I think that's one of the best definitions of what the Joseph Smith translation is. Sometimes people think, oh, if I had the original manuscript, it would say exactly what the JST says. Maybe not, because it's those things what God has in his bosom for the salvation of his elect in the latter days. So when I look at section 133 and some of the reworking of Isaiah 63 and 64 and some of the reordering of the verses and even some additions in the language, I don't think it's necessarily saying those were wrong and this is right. I just think that's part of what God has for us in the latter days as a result of that. If that's okay. Yeah. I think that's a great way to describe it.

Yeah. And then verse eight in chapter 64. but now, Oh Lord, thou art our father. We are the clay and thou our Potter, and we are all the work of thy hand. Oh man. So good. Now I want to add something if I can chapter 65, the Joseph Smith translation, the footnotes of the appendix doesn't contain the entire manuscript of the Joseph Smith translation, the footnotes of the appendix doesn't contain the entire manuscript of the Joseph Smith translation. And so I was looking at the Joseph Smith translation and I want to share with you and for your readers, if you want to use the citation index, it has the complete Joseph Smith translation of the Old Testament on there. I'm not sure if you guys were aware of that, but it does. And Isaiah 65 verse one reads, I am sought of them that ask not of me. I am found of them that sought me not. I said, behold me,

behold me unto a nation that was not called by my name. And I've struggled with that verse. Like what is going on? But the Joseph Smith translation says, I am found of them who seek after me. I give unto all them that ask of me. I am not found of them that sought not sought me not or that inquireth not after me. Thank goodness. Thank goodness. Oh, that clears that up perfectly. Does it?

I mean, it's just like, okay, we're good. And so I just love that. And I just want to alert your listeners that you can look on the citation index. The Joseph Smith translation does have that verse changed. And I think it's super critical. So if that's okay, I wanted to look, if you will, at verse 11, because I think it's a warning to us. This is again, we're prior to the second coming. We want to be his covenant people. But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, and that prepare a table for that troop.

Now, if you look at your footnote for troop, 11a, it's an idol. And I think it's interesting that the Lord, his covenant people have forsaken him. They forget the temple and they make other gods their priority. Well, so what's the result? Look at verse 13 and 14. Therefore, thus saith the Lord God, behold, my servants shall eat, but you shall be hungry. Behold, my servant shall drink, but you shall be thirsty. Behold, my servant shall rejoice, but you shall be ashamed. Behold, my servant shall sing for joy of heart, but you shall cry for sorrow of heart and shall Now, I don't think we're talking about physical things here. We might be. But I think we're talking about the servants of God are eating the bread of life.

We're drinking from the living water. We are rejoicing in the God of Israel. In other words, we're not ashamed because we're covered. Does that make sense? That when we forsake the Lord, forget his temple and make other gods a priority, we receive consequences. And those are some of the consequences that Isaiah lays out. The rebellious are going to be hungry, thirsty, ashamed. You're going to be hungry, thirsty, ashamed. Yeah. And you're going to cry for sorrow of heart and vexation of spirit. These idols cannot provide you what you're seeking.

Yeah, that's exactly right. Again, talking about the second coming and going to Isaiah chapter 66, there is some amazing things here. And there's a very famous prophecy in Isaiah 66 and this idea of a nation being born in a day so we've got verse 7 before she travailed she brought forth before her pain came she was delivered of a man child verse 8 who hath heard such a thing who has seen such things shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day or shall shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Then the Lord asked, Shall I bring to the birth and not commentaries on that. And Spencer Kimball, Orson Pratt, Orson Hyde, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and others have talked about how ultimately at the second coming, Gentiles, Jews, and Lamanites, there will be some major conversion

going on. I would add, and if I can, I would add Islam. I would add some of these other things. I don't totally pretend to know how that's going to work, but I still think we're in the preparatory phase in terms of missionary work on both sides of the veil. And I think that Isaiah is seeing a bigger picture and I think it's ongoing now, but I think it will really explode at the second coming. And I think a lot of people think, oh, well, there won't be any missionary work at the second coming. No, no, no.

Major work at the second coming, major work at the millennium. In the millennial day, there will also be major missionary work. Brigham was very clear that there would be those not of our faith during the millennium because why? Because the agency is always honored. So he goes through, he starts talking about all these things, but I'd love to have your comments and your thoughts. You know, he talks about verse 15, the Lord will come with fire with his chariots, like a whirlwind to render his anger with fury and his rebuke with flames of fire going through all this. He knows our works. But then verse 19.

For I will set a sign among them. So third Nephi 21. The Lord says, I'm going to give you a sign. Words of the book. Yep. I'm talking about the Book of Mormon. I will set a sign among them. The latter day token, the latter day sign about the Book of Mormon. I will set a sign among them, the Latter-day Token, the Latter-day Sign, the Book of Mormon.

And I will send those that escape of them. What an interesting phrase. So those who accept the sign and escape the world are going to be sent. Where are we going to be sent? Tarshish, Pul, Lud, Tubal, Javan, the Isles of Far Off. Those that have not heard the fame, neither have seen the glory of the Lord. What to do what? To declare my glory among the Gentiles.

And then here's the cool thing. What is the offering you and I make in the latter days, really? And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations. And I think if president Nelson was here on this podcast, he'd say from both sides of the veil, Isaiah chapter two, all nations flow into the house of the Lord, the house of the God of Jacob, the Hebrew word, all nations river into it, right? They all, they all river into it. What do we do in the latter days? He gives us a sign. Those who've accepted the sign then go to all nations. And then what do we do?

We bring an offering to the Lord. What's the offering? People from both sides of the veil. From where? From everywhere. And where do we bring it? In middle of verse 20, to my holy mountain, Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering and a clean vessel into the house of the Lord. And I think Jerusalem becomes a proxy holy city for all of our holy temples, a proxy holy city for all of our stakes of Zion. So that we do is we bring our children, we bring our family, we bring ourselves, and we bring everyone else on both sides of the veil as a holy offering. That's the requirement in the latter days for us to be able to do that. I just absolutely love that. I think, Ross, was he describing something very similar in chapter 65, verse 17?

I create new heavens and a new earth. Be glad and rejoice forever for which I create. For behold, I create Jerusalem, a rejoicing. Be glad and rejoice forever for which I create. For behold, I create Jerusalem, a rejoicing. And I love verse 19. I will rejoice in Jerusalem and joy in my people. And the voice of weeping shall be heard, no more heard. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. Well, in Isaiah 65, he also taps into some of the Deuteronomy promises in Deuteronomy 28. Isaiah is very connected to that. They're going to build houses and live in them. They're going to plant vineyards and eat of the fruit of them. They're not going to labor in vain.

They're going to be the seed of the blessed. They're going to have prayer and revelation. And all these things are tied to the promises Moses gave. He said, if you guys will do these things, God will be your God. And Isaiah seems to be tapping into this idea that pre-millennial and then post-millennial, these kinds of things can happen as well. I'm interested also in Isaiah 66 verse 3, where at the end of verse 3, he says, Yea, they have chosen their own ways, and their soul delighteth in their abominations. They've chosen their own ways. So if you think again, bookends, go back to Isaiah two, where he talked about everyone walketh in his own way, but we go to the temple. So we learn

the Lord's ways. So you have chosen, they have chosen their own ways. And then what does he say? Verse four. So I also will choose their delusions and will bring their fears upon them. Why? Because when I called, none did answer. When I spake, they did not hear. verse two, where he goes through and then here in Isaiah 66, and also he brings up this idea of he keeps calling and people are not answering. And I think he's calling, remember Isaiah, section 43 of the Doctrine and Covenants, every voice possible. He's using every single avenue possible to call people to him. And he will measure out his mercy and his love and his justice in accordance with our capacity i think and our opportunity to hear but some people have heard and reject and this idea of at the end of verse three they have chosen their own ways i don't know i think you brethren have heard this phrase you do you you heard that phrase you do you And I had a kid in my class say that recently, you do you. And I said, I a hundred percent disagree with that. Yeah. Right. I don't want to do me. I'm lame. I'm

fallen. I want to do what Jesus wants me to do. That's what I want to do. Cause I could be wrong. You do you. I'm pretty lousy at knowing what exactly I need and what I want. So I want what God wants for me. In fact, that's why I'm a member. That's why I'm pretty lousy at knowing what exactly I need and what I want. So I want what God wants for me. In fact, that's why I'm a member. That's why I'm in covenants because I want what God wants. And so I want prophetic direction. I want ordinances and covenants. I want that. And so I want to choose the way of God. And even the savior, the ultimate example had to bend. He didn't want to do him. He wanted to do the will of the Father. And I've told my class, Jesus never said, you do you. He said, you do me.

Exactly. He said, what manner of men ought ye to be, even as I am? Amen. But what you just said adds another dimension. I do only the things that please the Father. So, he wanted to do... First thing he said when he showed up to the righteous in the new world, right? I've done the will of the father from the beginning. So, yeah. And Ross, I loved what you said. The Lord is pleading to be chosen. He doesn't want to punish. That's 66, 16. The Lord pleads with all flesh. God wants us to want him and he calls in every possible way. I mean,

literally calling us, but then there's this sadness to it, right? We get this sadness. I've called, but no one, no one answers, right? I've tried. I've tried. This goes back to your Jacob five. What more could I have done? And by the way, when I get to that in Jacob 5 with my students, I go, what's the answer? The answer is nothing. There's nothing more you could have done. And the same in Isaiah 5. It's what more could I have done? Nothing. Same thing. And so these verses speak of this beautiful millennial day, but I love the idea of the offering that we bring in the

latter days, our other children of God, and that we waste and wear out our lives to serve the Savior, to minister, to love, share, and invite, to unite the family of God, to live the gospel of Christ in our own lives. That is the message of Isaiah. All focusing, remember Elder Uchtdorf just gave this, you know, this beautiful thing with the teaching the Savior's way. And they kept the four points of, right, love your students, teach the doctrine, teach by the Spirit, invite diligent learning. But they added the overarching one is, no matter what you teach, teach about Jesus Christ.

No matter what you teach, teach about Jesus Christ. No matter what you teach, teach about Jesus Christ. And Isaiah is the epitome of that from chapter one to chapter six. He echoes through the ages. No matter what I teach, I'm going to teach about Jesus Christ. And I love to tell my students, look at his name. His name means Jehovah is salvation or in bumper sticker language, Jesus saves. And so Abinadi quotes him because the wicked priest thought that the law saved, the law of Moses saved. No, then he reads him Isaiah 53. I was going to add to that.

There is a sadness here, but it's like, wow, the deadline, it actually comes. It actually happened. And when I teach 2 Nephi 28, there's no devil, there's no hell, all of those lies that Satan tells. I always like to add, here's another one that's not in there, but I like it. There's no hurry. That's great. And no, there is. Because look, eventually, it's going to be too late.

It'll be everlastingly too late. So get your act together while there's still time. Well, and that's an Elder Holland. Remember Elder Holland at the end of one talk, he said, there's always time as long as the master says there's time. Hurry up. Time is running out. Yeah, that's right. Right at the end of the talk.

Yeah. Ross, this has been a fantastic day going through these verses of Isaiah. Some of these chapters that I can't say I really understood before, I feel like I have a grasp on. Right, John? Just. Oh, just been great. I think I've taken more notes today than for a long time. And now I'm motivated to go back. I got to look at this again and try to get some of this inside. But thank you so much, Ross. Amazing. Ross, I think our listeners would be interested in your journey as both a Latter-day Saint, as a Jew growing up in a Jewish family, converting and becoming a Latter-day Saint, and also being a Bible scholar. What's that journey been like?

Well, I'll tell you. Remember I told you that I was reading the Book of Mormon and Jesus the Christ and all this kind of stuff, and I was so fired up. This was in Southern California, and I lived in the San Fernando Valley at the time. And I went to a Christian bookstore, not knowing that they wouldn't have books about the church, except that we're anti. I literally didn't know that. I'm being complete. So I walked in and I was like, hi. And the lady behind the counter was like, I'd love to read books about the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And she was like, handed me like a headlamp and said, go in that dark area over there. And no, she didn't really do that.

But you know, and I went to this bookshelf and it was all anti stuff. And I bought three books and I read them and I had a yellow pad. I mean, I'm, I'm 18. Okay. I'm not a member of the church and I've got my pen out and I've got these anti-books and I'm reading them. And there's an interesting thing. I had read anti-Semitic literature and I've been exposed to that. And in my family, of course, the Holocaust. And I realized that the spirit of anti-Semitism, the vitriolic that was there was similar. And I remember thinking, wow, these guys are wackos.

Like this is now I did. There was about, I still remember there was three or four questions. So I read these three books and I took my yellow pad and there was about three or four questions I did actually have. And I went to the missionaries and I said, Hey, you know, I have these three or four questions and did actually have. And I went to the missionaries and I said, Hey, you know, I have these three or four questions and it wasn't super problematic. And I was able to overcome that when I was getting my PhD, essentially in philosophy and theology, I was asked by members of my ward, you know, is this hard for you? Is this hard on your faith? And I can be totally honest with you. I would leave classes with chills because I would say, Joseph Smith, the restoration answers these questions. Like I literally left with chills. And I'll tell you a story. I had a friend, his name was Royce Grubick. And this big tall guy, we were getting our PhDs together and we used to walk back to our cars and be in classes together. And he said, he goes, Ross, I know why you do this.

And I was like, do what? He's like, I know why you're so immersed in the PhD program and you read everything. It's just one more arrow in your quiver for Mormonism. And I was like, Royce, dude, that is sweet. I'm going to use that. One more arrow in your quiver for Mormonism. I literally try to take everything I learn and use it to build the kingdom. And I love your point. Oh, if you knew what I knew, I guarantee you, I know more than what they think I know. I guarantee you I've read

it. There's no new anti-argument. It's all the same rehash. It's all based on certain assumptions and certain premises. And so I take a view that you don't ever have to worry about truth, but I do like to learn certain skills. I want to be source critical and I want to be careful, but boy, if it's true, I want to embrace it and I'm not going to be afraid of it, but I got to still pay the price. I have to know my text. And my message here is that's not because I'm a scholar or not because I have a PhD. It's because I pay a price reading my text, listening to the words of prophets and apostles and doing my darndest to understand the word. And I believe the man in Guatemala or anybody else in the world can do that exact same thing. It helps me. I think it helps all of our listeners to know there are those out there who have paid that

price and we're all still working on it. But it's so nice to know there are those who have read it all. And I remember Robert Millett saying he would have students come to him. Hey, did you know about this? Yeah, I knew about it. Oh, you do? Oh, okay. And that was enough because they knew I know about it. Yeah, I knew about it. Oh, you do. Oh, okay. And that was

enough because they knew I know about it. I've studied it and it's not a deal breaker. Right. And there are times, and I know you guys have thought about this, but in John six, of course, you know, he's fed the 5,000 and they want to make them a King because they want free food. And then he says kind of boom, except you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no part in me. And then doesn't explain it. Can you imagine, John, if you and I were like, let's say disciples, I would go up to Peter. I'd be like, Hey, Peter, what the heck? Was that a metaphor? What's going on? And I think Peter would have said, don't know i don't know well what do we do peter uh uh we do you know what we do we follow jesus because he is the christ and i don't totally get

it peter peter i don't totally get it but he's the christ and so beyond just being somebody who's paid a price in the text and beyond a price I paid in other areas, you have to get a witness and settle it in your heart. You have to get a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost and settle it in your heart. I am settled in my heart and I love the Lord. I love his prophets and apostles. I love the church. I love this conversation we're having. And so I always tell my students, look, you can ask me any question in class, but know one thing. I'm under the umbrella of faith. study philosophy and you will know as much as anybody about Kant or Aristotle or Schopenhauer, whoever we're studying, but we will do this. We will judge the philosophers by the gospel, not the gospel by the philosophers. And they kind of look at me. I go, are we clear? So we're never going to judge the gospel by Aristotle, but we're going to judge Aristotle by the gospel. And I go, we're not going to diminish our rigor. We're not going to know

less than somebody who went to Harvard. We're going to know just as much. But at the end of the day, what the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us trumps all those other things. I'm transferring to Rexburg, Hank. Thank you, Dr. Ross Barron. I can feel the power all the way up there in Rexburg. I can feel the warmth of your testimony. We want to thank Dr. Barron for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson.

We hope all of you will join us next week. We're coming back with another episode of Follow Him. We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.