followHIM - Joshua 1-8; 23-24 -- Part 1 : Dr. George A. Pierce

Episode Date: May 20, 2022

How does Joshua leading the children of Israel into the Promised Land remind you of the Savior’s mission? Dr. George Pierce explores the importance of names, the power and faith of Rahab, and the importance of children gaining their own testimonies.Please rate and review the podcast!Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing & SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts: French TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-piano

Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I'm Hank Smith. And I'm John, by the way. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you. As together, we follow him. Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host, and I am here with my co-host. Now, let me describe him for you. And there arose not a co-host since in Israel, like unto John, by the way, whom the Lord knew face to face. Deuteronomy 34.10 altered just a little bit. Could be a slight exaggeration. Not a co-host in Israel, like unto John, by the way.

So John, welcome. It's going to be a great day. We're going to be in the book of Joshua today. And you know, Joshua has big shoes to fill with Moses leaving and him coming in, stepping into that role. So we needed someone who could be likened to a Joshua for us. And we found a Bible expert. We did. We found Dr. George Pierce.

And as I read his bio, I thought, I don't know if we've had a more interesting bio the whole time we've done this. Dr. George Pierce was born and raised in Opa-Hunko, Florida. He received a bachelor's in history from Clearwater Christian College, a master's in archaeological information systems from the University of New York, and an MA in biblical studies from Wheaton College and a PhD in Near Eastern Languages and Cultures from University of California, Los Angeles, also known as UCLA. Prior to commencing his doctoral work, Dr. Pierce served as research faculty at the Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Beersheba, Israel. Additionally, he's certified in architectural and mechanical drafting from the state of Florida. I can draw your house plans if you need. Yeah. How old are you? 300 years old?

He has taught courses in ancient Near Eastern civilizations, Jewish history, and Jerusalem, the holy city at UCLA. He's worked with archaeological excavations in Florida, Scotland, the West Bank, and Israel, including Tel Dothan, Ein Gedi, Beersheba, Jaffa, and the Philistine city of Ashkelon, in addition to excavating for the Israel Antiquities Authority. He is currently the lead architect and supervisor of the Geographic Information Systems team

for the Tel Shemron excavations in the Jezreel Valley in Israel. And Dr. Pierce and his wife, Dr. Crystal Pierce, whom we have had on the podcast. They have two children, Victoria and George III. George published a book called Covenant and Compassion. We're just thrilled to have you here, Dr. Pierce, and excited to learn from this incredible background that you've got there. Well, it's great to be here. I don't know if I can live up to my bio, to be honest. I don't know who wrote that, all that stuff. I've been around the block a couple of times. How about that? George is one of my favorite people. If I run into George in the Joseph Smith building, it's a good day. I've been looking forward to this for a long time. Those of you who

heard his wife's episode, Dr. Crystal Pierce, that was our sixth episode of the year. And she just did a fantastic job talking about Noah. She got you prepped for our interview, right, George? She told you what it was going to be like? Yeah, she did. She warned me about you both. So, yeah. I want to come to your house for the third hour. Come follow me, you know, and see what that's like with you two there. Yeah. If I remember right, John, we asked her about what's conversation like at your house? And she said, well, this is what we talk about. This is what we do. Yeah.

Funnily enough, just this morning after breakfast and we got the kids to school, I was sitting down and writing some things while we had some work going on in the house. And our conversation turned to one of the funny things about Joshua is how do we understand the conquest and God's commandment about the Canaanites? And it led to an hour of us sitting there sort of hashing out theologically, archaeologically, philosophically, here's how we can sort of best understand this. And at the end of the day, still have attention. So, yeah, that's what conversations revolve around in our house. Did you bring the recording of that? We could make that a bonus feature today.

We could just splice it straight in or get our bonus feature. Here's some extras. Dr. Pierce, George, let's come into Joshua by talking a little bit about Deuteronomy and just kind of making a couple of highlights and giving Moses a good send-off before we introduce our next prophet, our next in line. What can we say about Deuteronomy? Yeah, let's set some context for the book of Joshua. I'll just go back to Deuteronomy 1,

and just the first verse tells us where they're at, where the children of Israel are. It says, These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side, Jordan, in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red Sea, between Paran and Tophel and Laban and Hazeroth and Dezahab, right? So places that we're not entirely sure where they're at, but we can cut through the mustard and just say the children of Israel are on the east side of the Jordan, what would now

be the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan as a nation state. Moses is then going to take the opportunity in Deuteronomy, hence the name, to sort of restate the law for them. Deuteronomy, hence the name, to sort of restate the law for them. Deuteronomy means second law. Moses is taking the opportunity to restate it and reformulate it in a way that it's a series of curses and blessings. Now, that sounds kind of like harsh. We'll simplify it down and you'll see a pattern here with the Book of Mormon. The blessing is, and all the blessings are, if they're obedient to the commandments that the Lord has given them, then they'll be prosperous, right? They'll be able to go into the land, to get their inheritance, to be able to build houses and have a good family structure and

generations of children and grandchildren, etc., etc. And the curses aren't so much curses as we think about it, but it's sort of missing out on God's blessings for disobedience. If they're not obedient to the commandments, then they don't get the blessings, and life is going to be harder, and there's going to be a lot more difficulties. So, Moses sort of sets this up in Deuteronomy. You do these things, you'll be blessed. You do these things, you won't receive your blessings. And then toward the end of it, starting in Deuteronomy chapter 32, we have what's called the Song of Moses. And Moses, right, talks about Israel and how, right, they've acted and all the rest of these

sort of incidents in which he's effectively setting them up and praising the Lord. And then he blesses the tribes of Israel, specifically, so the tribe of Levi, so that they will be able to teach Israel about the judgments and the law. So, the Levitical priesthood taking on that role of teaching the law to the people and performing sacrifices and blessing Benjamin and the house of Joseph, so Ephraim and Manasseh and all the rest of the tribes. And then we have in chapter 34, as the Bible has it, Moses goes up to the mountain, to Mount Nebo, and he looks over, he's able to see the promised land, but he's not allowed to go in. And that's the sort of end.

And it's sort of mentioned that his successor is going to be Joshua, who's been his right-hand man ever since they left Egypt. This is what sort of sets us up. So, when Joshua opens then, Moses is now off the scene. Israel now has this new leader, right? The mantle of leadership falls on Joshua. And then they're sort of poised and ready to go in to sort of effectively take over the promised land, if that makes sense. Yeah, that's awesome. So, Deuteronomy is not a lot of storyline, just a restating of the law and Moses' goodbye. I remember last week we studied quite a bit the phrase, don't forget. Don't forget what the Lord has done for you. That seemed to be a major message of

Deuteronomy. And if you do forget, life's gonna be hard. But he's given them a good setup. The land that they're about to go in, they knew from the spies that they sent earlier, this is an awesome place. They're gonna do really well if they follow the commandments. Absolutely. And just to tie it back to that story and numbers of spies going in, Joshua and his compatriot in that story, Caleb, they're the only two that are left of that entire generation after wandering for 40 years in the wilderness. Those two are left because they were the two who were faithful and said, this is what God wants us to do.

We can do it in the strength of the Lord. This is why Joshua has lived so long. And you see in the book of Joshua later on, Caleb comes to him and says, right, I want my inheritance in the land. And so, they give Caleb his inheritance and his family and all the rest of this. So, these two, this is their reward. They get, they're two who originally came out of Egypt 40 years plus before, and now they're able to go into the promised land. And that's such a great reward for their obedience. Yeah.

That was back in Numbers chapter 11. I'm glad you mentioned it's the second law. I think people have seen that word, dut. And you see two in there, you know, is this a duet? I've spelled it wrong my whole life. It's not duet-eronomy, it's deuteronomy. And now I love that we're getting back to some storyline. Do you ever have students or people that feel that was kind of harsh that Moses didn't get to enter the promised land?

Moses did so much and he was so foundational. And for the rest of time, including into the modern era, I mean, currently Moses is held as the paragon of what it means to be a prophet in Israel and a lawgiver. And he also acts as a priest, as we see in many cases. And he kind of acts as a sort of proto-king. Moses is kind of the complete package. And to not be able to go there, as I talk to students, I say, it's about obedience. And not to sound harsh about it, because, I mean, you know, on some level, we're like, man, I wish Moses could just step over the River Jordan and get there and everything's going to be great. When Moses is disobedient at times, and Moses has this great relationship with Jehovah, in which sometimes Jehovah, and you guys have probably

encountered this in your studies, sometimes Jehovah's like, step aside, Moses, I'm going to wipe out everybody and I'm going to start again with you. And then sometimes Moses comes to the Lord and says, could you just wipe out everybody and start again with, I mean, and so we have this kind of like back and forth and they're tempering each other. And that's a great relationship that he has. But in the cases where he's disobedient, it's very striking to use a pun. He was told the first time, strike a rock and the water is going to come out and that's fine. And the second time he's told to speak to the rock.

And in his anger with the children of Israel, he and his frustration, he strikes the rock a second time down the storyline. And water comes forth, but the Lord says, because you weren't obedient to me, you're not going to go over there. Now, there's a whole lot of interpretation there. The Apostle Paul says the rock that followed them around that provided water was Christ. And so, Christ is only struck once, not twice, folks, right? In terms of this. Which is an interesting interpretation, but it comes down to

being obedient to what the Lord's asked us to do, even in the small things. Could we say, George, also that Moses had fulfilled his mission, and this is now Joshua's role? Absolutely. Moses has fulfilled his role. He's done his mission. He's done everything that the Lord had probably intended him to do. It's time for that chapter to close. And we see this at the end of the book of Joshua too. So, spoiler alert, we'll just get to the end. They all die. So, at the end of the book of Joshua, Joshua passes away, Eliezer, the high priest who was a son of Aaron, he passes away. And it's sort of closing the chapter on the Exodus and the wilderness wanderings. So, Moses, right,

is now out of the picture. Joshua's going to die. The high priest who succeeded Aaron in the wilderness wanderings and got them to, right, into Canaan, he's going to pass away. And then at the end of the story, they also buried the bones of Joseph, which is really closing the chapter on Israel's time. Genesis story. Yeah. So, all these things kind of have to finish up, if you will, for the Israelites to take that next step forward in the chapter of their history and their life in the promised land. I've also thought that Moses in the Lord taking him back home, that's even better than the promised land. You know, Moses could rest and be in the

rest or the presence of the Lord. I remember as a kid watching the Ten Commandments, I kind of felt bad he didn't get to go into the promised land, but Joshua did. And we're not done with Moses. We'll see him again in the New Testament. We'll see him again in the Doctrine and Covenants. The Lord has more for Moses to do. This is an interesting point, a transition point from Moses to Joshua. In some way, we all go through this with a new bishop or a new Relief Society president or a new president of the church. It's a transition period that's difficult. I remember pretty much the only person I ever knew when I was a teenager was Gordon B. Hinckley.

I just didn't know the church without Gordon B. Hinckley. I just didn't know the church without Gordon B. Hinckley. I just figured he was the church. And then when he passed away, and I remember looking at President Monson going, no, no, where's President Hinckley? You're the first counselor, President Monson. You've always been the first counselor, President Hinckley. But I remember seeing President Monson stand up that first time, and there was a change in him, at least in my perspective. And then again with President Nelson. And we could talk about last year, John, we talked about Brigham Young taking over for Joseph Smith. This is no fun to be in this position.

Yeah. I don't remember anybody ever in general conference, whether it's being set apart as the president of the church or even a calling to the 70 or to be one of the 12 saying, yeah, I'm totally prepared for this. I got this, went my whole life. I know exactly what I'm doing. I mean, it's totally the opposite. Like, I didn't ask for this. I was asked to do this. I'll do my best, but wow, I'm overwhelmed. That's what you always hear. We see that with Joshua too. Right at the tail end of Deuteronomy, Deuteronomy chapter 34, verse 9, Joshua the son of Nun was full of the spirit of wisdom, for Moses had laid his hands upon him, and the children of Israel hearkened unto him and did as the Lord commanded Moses. But as we look at the first chapter of Joshua,

especially the first sort of nine verses or so, and then beyond that, we can see that the gravity of the situation is affecting Joshua in a way. It might, right? If someone said to you, okay, Moses, you're out, Joshua, you're in, Joshua, how you feeling? Please no, please no. I don't think I can do this. Those are particular big shoes to fill. Absolutely. And so, I think he feels that, and he's got his own mission. Moses had his to give the law, to lead them through the wilderness, to go through all that with the exodus. And now it's Joshua's turn to settle them in the land and to get them going into what they

should be doing. Well, I love this idea of trusting in the Lord and looking to perhaps a new leader when that time comes. No matter what organization it is, a ward, a stake, a relief society, a quorum, a class in young women's, president of the church, a new apostle. When these things happen, being able to trust that the Lord is whom he has called, he will qualify. So, tell us about Joshua, George. We get the introduction to Joshua actually back in Exodus. It's kind of interesting. Joshua is the son of Nun. We really don't know much more other than that about the family, but we do know that they are from the tribe of Ephraim. So, if you identify with that through

your patriarchal blessing or are just a big fan of the tribe of Ephraim, this is Joshua's tribe. Let me just throw this out here as a parallel. Isn't it interesting that the two spies who live long enough to see and go into the promised land, Joshua is from the tribe of Ephraim and Caleb is from the tribe of Judah. We have these two very strong tribes represented in faithfulness. Jared, when we do have a divided kingdom later, those are going to be the two heads. Yeah, those are going to be the two central tribes in both of those kingdoms, the southern kingdom of Judah, obviously, and the northern kingdom of Israel. By far, the two most populous tribes in the northern kingdom are those of Ephraim and Manasseh, so the house of Joseph. And Ephraim is actually going to be the territory in which

the capitals of the northern kingdom are going to be located. Joshua's name, interestingly enough, because I love names, I love the meanings of names and Joshua's name, it comes from the Hebrew meaning Jehovah, either Jehovah saves or Jehovah is salvation. I like Jehovah's salvation. So Joshua in Hebrew, Yehoshua, sometimes Yeshua comes to us. And if you're familiar then with Jesus' name in Aramaic,

as he was here in His earthly ministry, is Yeshua. Effectively, it's Joshua. It means the same thing, right? Jehovah is salvation. How does that become Jesus, George? Is that just the Greek form of Yeshua? So, you have Yeshua in Aramaic, which goes to Jesus in Greek, which then comes in as Yesu in Latin. And then because of the Germanization of the word, that initial I becomes a J, and then we get Jesus. And so, that's how we get it in English. So, Jesus has this same name as this old prophet. When you look at the life of Joshua and what he does, it's sort of a foreshadow

of seeing the Savior's ministry. Joshua effectively, in a lot of places, sort of, quote-unquote, saves the Israelites and helps to keep them in the right sort of way and adhering to the commandments and being victorious. When the angel Gabriel announces to Mary that, right, they're going to call his name Jesus, and part of that is because he's going to save his people from their sins. And Jesus performs that same sort of role of salvation. I think there's a lot of good parallels as we think about that and ponder it. So, watch for those as we go along. Watch for the Joshua-Jesus parallels as we read.

Absolutely. It just seems like so often, especially in these times in which we're talking, a name kind of indicates a mission, doesn't it? I love biblical names and pointing out biblical names, place names, people names, because they matter in the story. We read it and we go, okay, Joshua takes over, that's great, moving on. We need to sit and think and say, okay, his name means something and it's particular for this time. And again, the ultimate example is that of the Savior. Both in Luke and in Matthew, Mary and Joseph are both told individually that His name is going to be Jesus. For that very reason of saving His people from their sins, I don't think the Savior's name could have been anything else. It had to have been Jesus. Oh, I love the way you put that. Yeah. And George, as I'm looking at chapter one, I'm seeing that the Lord does notice that Joshua needs a bit of a pep talk. Verse five says,

as I was with Moses, so will I be with thee. I will not fail thee nor forsake thee. Be strong and of good courage unto this people. If you or anybody else has a habit of marking in their scriptures or highlighting in their gospel library app, take a look and see how many times he says, be strong and of good courage. Verse 6, be strong and of good courage. You go down and there's the charge to keep the book of the law. And in verse 9, have I not commanded thee? Be strong and of good courage. It's not just a good suggestion, it's a commandment to Joshua. Be strong and of good courage. So, it's twice then that the Lord says this to him, be not afraid, neither be thou dismayed,

for the Lord thy God is with thee whithersoever thou goest. Further on, as we sort of look and Joshua's kind of reminding these other tribes that are trying to settle on the east side of the Jordan, they tell him, right, everything in verse 16, everything thou commandest us we will do and whithersoever thou sendest us we will go. According as we hearken unto Moses and all things, so we will hearken unto thee. Only the Lord God be with thee as he was with Moses. And they go down to the very last statement in verse number 18. They tell him, only be strong and of a good courage.

So, three times in that initial chapter, twice from the Lord, once from the other tribes of Israel, they're reminding Joshua, listen, we know that it's a big responsibility and Joshua's got to be feeling, right, the pressure. And he's reminded, dare I say commanded in verse 9, to be strong and of a good courage. And so, I think there's a parallel there for us, right? We're tasked with sometimes very difficult things at work and our family situations, maybe our callings that give you a calling to teach you Sunday school and you're really not sure how to handle 16 to 17-year-olds in any sort of way. That's just a personal aside. But we have this assurance that God's gonna be with us if we're faithful to Him, and we can be strong and of good courage. And if anybody needs that

pep talk, it's Joshua. This could be such an applicable chapter to anyone who's facing a daunting task, a new calling, a difficult trial. Be strong and of good courage. I wanted to quote Elder Holland here. This is a talk called The Tongue of Angels. He quotes another apostle. So we have an apostle quoting another apostle. Elder Holland says, I love what Elder Orson F. Whitney once said, quote, the spirit of the gospel is optimistic. It trusts in God. It looks on the bright side of things. The opposite or pessimistic spirit drags men down and away from God, looks on the dark side, murmurs, complains, and is slow to be obedient. Then back to Elder Holland, he says, we should honor the Savior's declaration to be of good

cheer. Indeed, it seems to me we may be more guilty of breaking that commandment, from Elder Holland, than almost any other. So you're right. of breaking that commandment, it's from Elder Holland, than almost any other. So you're right. It's the, this is a commandment. Be of good cheer from Jesus or in Joshua chapter one, be strong and of good courage. I have commanded it.

We all remember the call of Moses and who am I to lead the children of Israel out of bondage? And I'm of slow tongue and of slow speech, and they won't listen to me. And the Lord's answer was not, you're the best, you're awesome, you were saved for this. The Lord's answer was, I will be with thee. And what I like about this in Joshua in verse five, so I will be with thee, as it was with Moses, so I will be with thee. And then he said it again in verse 17, only the Lord thy God be with thee as he was with Moses. And that's why you can be strong and have a good courage, because I'm right here and I'll be with you. That's great, John. The people recognize that. George just showed us that. Verse 16,

they answered Joshua, all that thou commanded us, we will do. Whether you send us, we will go. But down in verse 17, the Lord thy God be with thee as he was with Moses. And they close that statement, be strong and have a good courage. Yeah, that's great. George, there we see the children of Israel backing up their new leader. When I see a new bishop in my word, I not only feel bad for him, but I support him. I say, whatever you call me to do, I will do. I will go. I will support you. Having watched a congregation raise their hands to say they'll sustain you as a bishop,

that was a moment for me because that means something. I didn't think it meant that much until I was sitting there on the stand, shaking in my boots and the congregation, some with smiles on their face, raised their hands. And I thought, okay, maybe I can do this if the Lord's with me, right? So, it's a beautiful story of Joshua. You're starting out. Chapter one finishes, be strong and of a good courage. I think we have a theme for chapter one. All right.

What are we going to do next? And that's it, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you for coming. Be strong and of a good courage. Be strong and of a good courage. Yeah, we'll see you guys. If only it was that easy, right?

Be strong and of good courage. And maybe the Lord is telling them, telling Joshua, be strong and have good courage because... You're gonna need it. You're gonna need it. We got this, guys. We got this. Now, what's this called, George? Joshua is supposed to go through the people and tell them to prepare because we're going in in three days. That is his instructions to the people. So, right, remember what the Lord's commanded you to do.

Once, right, this is going to be set, you're going to get this land, but your wives, your little ones, your cattle, right, they're going to sort of like remain here. You're going to come with the rest of us. We're going to get ready, and we're going to go, and we're going to take possession of this land. Apprehensions aside, and being strong and of good courage ringing in his ears, he's going to instruct the people that it's time to go. I mean, this is their whole purpose. This is why they left Egypt and why the Lord brought them out of Egypt, was to come back and to settle in the land. It's part of their Abrahamic covenant blessings is to have this land.

As it was promised to Abraham and his descendants. This is it. This is going to be the moment when they fulfill all these. And I say moment, it's a process, it's not just an event. So, this is a process by which that covenant is going to be fulfilled by going in here and taking the land. And so, it's going to require a few things ahead of that as we look at Joshua. He's gearing up and I think with be strong and of good courage, just echoing in his mind, he's gonna lead them across the Jordan. And as we open up chapter 2, it seems like the Lord is preparing the way.

He absolutely is. In Joshua chapter 2, before they go over, Joshua sends a couple spies into the land to see, right, how things are and to sort of gauge what's going on here. Reconnoissance mission. That's right. So, Joshua and the children of Israel on the east side of the Jordan, he's gonna send two guys across the west side of the Jordan, and this is gonna be in the area of Jericho if you have a Bible map. They go to what's described in chapter 2, verse 1, as a harlot's house, whose name is Rahab, and they lodge there. Now, people have sort of debated, does it really mean harlot, harlot, or is she an innkeeper who can provide

other services or whatever? Regardless, it's a public place where they can find somewhere to stay with somebody who isn't going to turn them over to the authorities, if that makes sense. So, they're smart enough to know where they're going. They're good spies, right? They know what they're doing. And so, in a James Bond type manner, they go here. And of course, the King of Jericho, right? The guy who's in charge of the whole town, right?

Has heard that they're spies out. So, maybe they weren't as good as they could have been. And they know that they're in Rahab's house. And Rahab brought them up to the roof of the house, and she'd hid them in the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof. So, we see that she's not maybe only a lady of the night or an innkeeper or whatever. She's also engaged in producing linen. She has them hide on the roof and she covers them over with a bunch of flax. So, hiding in the haystacks, if you will. So, Rahab is going against the king of Jericho here. Absolutely. She says, yeah, they went out the gate. It's dark. I don't know where they went.

They probably went over there. And so, the people who are chasing the spies kind of go down toward the Jordan River to pursue them. And when they're gone, she brings them out of the flax, brings them out of the haystacks. And she says this in verse 9, she said unto the men, I know that the Lord hath given you the land, and that your terror is fallen upon us, and that all the inhabitants of the land faint because of you. For we have heard how the Lord dried up the water of the Red Sea for you when you came out of Egypt, and, we've heard the stories. So, it's not like the Israelites are an unknown entity. The stories are now circulating around Canaan.

Hey, there's this group of people and their deity allowed them to cross the sea and their deity preserved them and helped them in these battles against these very strong kings on the eastern side of the Jordan River in their territories. And we know, as she says, He is God in heaven above and in earth beneath. We have Rahab, regardless of her occupation, regardless of her reputation, she expresses a faith in the God of Israel. Something that's very rare in these stories where we have somebody outside of Israel expressing this kind of faith, but it's worth pointing out, right? It's worth pointing out. She's a golden convert. She is, right? Yeah.

They didn't have to go through too many discussions with her, right? So, they were just like... She's like, I'm in, I'm in. Yeah, when can I get spared from all this? And we see this in verse 12. She says, now therefore I pray you, swear unto me by the Lord, since I have shown you kindness, that you will also show kindness unto my father's house and give me a true token, that you will save alive my father and my mother and my brethren and my sisters and all that they have and deliver our lives out of death. Save the pets, save the cousins, nephews once removed.

Rahab's family. Save them all. Make that agreement. They say, yeah, sure, like, we owe our lives to you, so we're gonna spare you. And so, there's some sort of sign, right? There is. We can see that her house, because they're being let down out of this window, is part of the city wall. And so, she lets them down by a rope of some sort, or as it says, a cord here, because she dwelt upon the wall. Her house is part of the wall, part of the fortifications of the city.

And so, the spies say, listen, if you hang this red rope outside your window, we'll know which house is yours. And we'll remember which house is yours. And your family will be spared. And if anybody of your family runs into any trouble with the Israelites, we'll take responsibility for this. And so, she says, okay, and she trusts them and she lets them down out of the window and then she ties the red rope there, the scarlet line in the window, just so that when the Israelites are going to come to Jericho, they'll know that it's her house. The spies come down, they rejoin Joshua,

they tell him all this stuff, and Joshua knows then, verse 24 of chapter 2, "...truly the Lord hath delivered into our hands all the land, for even all the inhabitants of the country do faint because of us." So, the spies' information that they bring back to him isn't just, hey, we're alive because this lady saved us and hit us in some flak stocks and she's got a red rope outside her window, so don't kill her. They say the tales of what the Lord's been doing for us are going all throughout Canaan and they're getting scared. And we had this convert, by the way. Yeah.

So, intrigued by Joshua 2, verse 10, we heard, how did they hear? They weren't posting this anywhere. I mean, did some of them skip the old wandering thing and make it there somehow? The Israelites have had interactions with the Canaanites since Numbers 21. And that's where the conquest truly begins is Numbers 21. They start to get in contact. But they've had contact with some of these Canaanite groups, the Moabites and others. Probably in that, there's this sort of repeating of the tale. When we look at Exodus 15, it's called the Song of the Sea. It is that because Moses sing and the children of Israel sing, and then Miriam, his sister, sort of picks up in a repeat. But songs are very easy to remember, so I'll just throw this out to you. You can probably remember probably all the words. Let's pick something easy like, I want to hold your hand by the Beatles.

I hope you'll understand. Yeah. And so, the Song of the Sea would have been easy to remember for them and to repeat time and again. So, as they're having these interactions with Canaanite groups or Moabite groups or whatever, they're able to recount these things and tell them, yeah. And so, I will sing unto the Lord, for He has triumphed gloriously. The horse and the rider are thrown into the sea, and the Lord is a man of action and a warrior and my salvation. And those are going to get repeated and sort of start to spread around. And so, just like a popular song starts to get picked up and shared on social media or online, or back in the day, people would go to their local record store and buy a 45 and then

share it with their classmates or trade it or something. This is how these tales probably transferred. After 40 years of wandering in the wilderness, by the time they get to Canaan, the Song of the Sea is a top 40 hit. I think that's fascinating. And I like what it says in verse 11, and as soon as we heard these things, our hearts did melt. I didn't know that was a biblical phrase until right now. Oh, absolutely. To put it in our sort of lingo, the fear of God was put into them, quite literally, as to what's going to happen. And so, she recognizes this, Rahab the harlot. Now, the interesting thing, just to sort of draw our attention to this, these stories like Rahab and others, they're meant for a purpose. And they're meant to show us that sometimes,

even those outside of the house of Israel are faithful and recognize the God is God in heaven and in earth beneath. The beautiful part about Rahab's story, if you turn to Matthew 1, verse 5, and the genealogy of Jesus, and there's a lot of begets, begets, begets, but verse 5, and Salmon begat Boaz of Rahab. Rahab's faithfulness and the beauty of the story is that regardless of her occupation, she, because of her faithfulness and the beauty of the story is that regardless of her occupation, she, because of her faithfulness, is then included in the genealogy of Jesus Christ. And I think part of that genealogy teaches us that it's not just people from the house of Israel, it's not people that are 100% faithful all the time. There's people from outside the house of Israel who are brought in because of their faithfulness, and they get to be the however many great grandmother of Jesus. And it's a beautiful story.

In Joshua 2, I'm seeing a little bit of the Passover. Put this scarlet thread on your window and we'll pass by you, right? We'll pass over you. So, there seems to be a bit of a type there. Even the spies know how this works. We have the instructions in just the beginning of Joshua chapter 3 that they're going to move the ark, and when people see the Levites carrying the ark, they're going to follow the ark. And as Joshua says in verse 5, sanctify yourselves, for tomorrow the Lord will do wonders among you. What a great verse. How amazing would it be if President Nelson put out a social media post or at general conference

said, sanctify yourselves, because tomorrow the Lord is going to do wonders among you. I don't even know how many of us would sleep and try and get ready, right, to sanctify ourselves. But Joshua says, this is what's going to happen. They start to move the ark and everybody takes their tents up and they go to pass over the Jordan. And we have the story then in Joshua 3 verse 15, they that bear the ark were come unto the Jordan and the feet of the priests that bear the ark were dipped into the brim of the water for. It's the Red Sea, yeah, right? until all the people were passed clean over Jordan. Now, what does that story sound like? Parting of the Red Sea. It's the Red Sea, yeah, right?

It's the Red Sea narrative all over again. But we have to remember this generation of people who are passing over the Jordan were not involved in the Red Sea crossing. They might have heard about it from their parents. They've obviously sung the Song of the Sea and repeated it to each other. Good point, yeah. But they've never experienced it. And I think there's something there about hearing a tale or hearing something versus the experience of it.

Could they have found a Ford in the Jordan? Probably. Could they have just waded through up to their waist or something? Yeah, but then they'd all have soggy socks on the other side, right? The point of it is that they experienced the same thing that their parents experienced coming out of Egypt. And they can witness the miracle that when the priest's feet hit that water of the Jordan, that river stops and it piles up and they cross over on dry ground. And we have this duplication of the Red Sea miracle. And so, if anybody's really questioning in their mind if Joshua is the true inheritor of Moses' position, this is it. This is it.

Reminds me of Joseph Smith's statement, I have learned for myself. Yeah, absolutely. I've learned for myself. George, for 40 years, we're confident in saying this is a generation that was not there, except for Joshua and Caleb. This is a generation that had only heard about the Red Sea being parted, didn't remember it. That's really significant, I think. After that incident with the spies in Numbers chapter 11, and the Lord comes down with a judgment and says, okay, you guys are going to wander around for 40 years. It's actually like

38 and a half years, but what's a year and a half among friends? He says effectively that all of that generation is going to pass away. Not a single one of them are going to get to the promised land because of their faithlessness in the spies episode. This incident where the waters parted there, I remember Elder Bednar talking about this once, and it was a talk he gave called According to Thy Faith at BYU-Idaho on August 29th of 2000. And this is what he said, Interestingly, the waters did not part as the children of Israel stood on the banks of the river and waited for something to happen. Rather, the soles of their feet were wet before the water was parted.

The faith of the Israelites was manifested in the fact that they walked into the water before it parted. They walked into the River Jordan with a future-facing assurance of things hoped for. As the Israelites moved forward, the water parted, and as they crossed over on dry ground, they were able to look back and behold the evidence of things not seen. Do you know what it reminds me of? Is to me, it's a Luke 17 parallel, the 10 lepers. They lifted up their voices and said, Jesus, master, have mercy on us. And Jesus said, go show yourselves to the priest, which is what you would do if you were already healed.

And they could have just stood there and said, we're not healed. We can't show ourselves to the priest. I don't think you understand. He'll throw rocks at us. We're not healed yet. But it says three words, as they went, they were cleansed. And then we usually focus on the one that turned around to give thanks, and he was a Samaritan. But I love that part. As they went, they were cleansed, not as they just stood there and waited. And so, that reminds me of this too. They just started walking in the water and that's when it parted. That's great, John. This is the same Jordan River, right? And this is the same Jordan River as Naaman and Elisha. Jesus is going to be baptized.

Same Jordan River that we have, yes, separating right now the West Bank and parts of Israel from the nation state of Jordan, the Hashemite kingdom of Jordan, flowing from the Sea of Galilee down into the Dead Sea, and all these great moments. So, Joshua crossing with the Israelites, crossing the Jordan to go into the Promised Land. As you mentioned, Elisha and Naaman, John the Baptist baptizing in the Jordan and baptizing Jesus. My daughter Victoria was baptized in the Jordan, so there's another famous moment. Wow, that is a good moment. The Jordan is kind of a pivotal river because it's unlike other rivers in Israel. It's one

of the few what we call perennial rivers. It's always flowing. Others are dependent on rainfall, and so they're kind of seasonal. But the Jordan is always there, and it's always a sort of source of either traffic east-west or water coming from the north. Isn't it fair to say that it's like the lowest river in elevation in the world? Definitely, because it runs into the Dead Sea and that's the lowest point. And kind of adds to that a layer of meaning to the Savior descending below all things, even to be baptized, because you can't go lower than the Jordan River. You can't get lower than the Jordan at that point to get baptized.

I also wonder if next year when we talk about John the Baptist, if he's not hearkening back to Joshua, right? By baptizing in the Jordan River, saying, let's go back to our roots. Let's go back to who we really are instead of what we've become. Absolutely. I think as John is out there redefining baptism, because baptism has become, just before Jesus' time, it's become this sort of ritual, if you will. So, in order to go to the temple and to present your sacrifice, you need to be ritually clean. And originally, when we look at washing and anointing in the Old Testament, it's only for the priests and the Levites serving at the tabernacle and then the temple.

And eventually, after the exile and they return back to the land and we're in that sort of intertestamental period, baptism becomes this thing where, well, it's not just priests, everybody. Let's just get everybody clean. So, when you show up to the temple with your sacrifice, you're ritually clean. But if you make your sacrifice and you go away and you do something else that breaks the law or you become ritually unclean, before you go to the temple again, you have to get, right, rebaptized, rewashed. And John comes along and says, that's not what baptism's about, folks. Baptism is about the remission of sins and leading a changed life. And this is in anticipation of Messiah's coming. And so, this is what baptism really means. He's kind of like the Alma the Elder figure at the waters of Mormon.

As Alma the Elder defines, this is what baptism means, and lifting up these hands that hang and mourning with those who mourn and all the rest of these things that Alma the Elder sort of defines there. And John the Baptist says, listen, this is what baptism really means. And I think, Hank, you're right in the sense of that. He goes to the Jordan, well, number one, because it is a perennial source of water. Number two, it is reworking that Joshua Israelite story again and saying, like, let's redo this and let's have this renewal. It's historically meaningful to all of them as well.

And what's it called? The mikvah bath? Yes. So, when they are sort of purposefully built and they collect rainwater, it's called a mikvah in Hebrew. And I think it's intriguing that when the Pharisees came out to see what John the Baptist was doing, they didn't say, what are you doing? It was more of, who are you? Because they kind of knew what he was doing.

Yeah, they kind of give him like the, like, why are you doing this, right? And who, kind of a who do you think you are? And the interesting thing, to go back to a Moses discussion, they ask him, right, are you that prophet? And when they say that prophet, they're referring to Deuteronomy 18 in which Moses, right, the Lord speaking through Moses says, I'm going to raise up another one from among your brethren like unto Moses. And he's going to tell you what you should do and you should follow it. Now, as we look at it, we clearly see through Matthew 5 and

other places, Jesus is the second Moses. But the Pharisees are like, wait, is this the second Mo- are you the second Moses? And like, he's like, no, and they're like, well, are you Messiah? Nope, not Messiah, so who are you? And that's when John has a famous statement, I'm the voice of one crying in the wilderness to prepare the way of the Lord, right? That's me. And of course, the gospels paint him in an Elijah-like manner with the camel hair garment and wildness out in the wilderness, which is totally Elijah, 100%. So, that's great stuff. John, I cut you off earlier, but I think it's an important point that we hit again is the idea of

they had to move forward in order for the water to part. And I've heard you say this before, that the Lord doesn't steer a parked car, that if you want to see the miracle, you have to part. And I've heard you say this before, that the Lord doesn't steer a parked car, that if you want to see the miracle, you have to act. We stand at the edge of the cliff and the Lord says, jump and I'll catch you. And we say, catch me first, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it doesn't work. That's not how it works. I think it was President Marion G. Romney that said, you cannot expect God to guide your

footsteps unless you're willing to move your feet. There's a certain step out into the unknown, and then the way is opened up to paraphrase President Packer, right? The candle of the Lord talk that he gave. So, I love the principle here of move forward in faith. Okay, 1 Nephi 4.6, that's the one that I want. I was led by the Spirit not knowing beforehand. So, are these waters going to part? And they step in it and boom, it works. And Joshua was right. God is going to do wonders among you. Is this where once they get across, the Lord says, set up a memorial? Joshua chapter 4 then brings in this concept in which the Lord tells Joshua to choose one person from each of the 12 tribes, and they're going to go out and the ark's going to go out there and stand in the middle of Jordan, and they're going to go before the ark, and they are

going to then set up 12 stones. So, pick a guy who can actually carry a fairly large stone from each tribe, and he's going to haul this stone across the Jordan, and when we get to the other side, the 12 of them are going to set up these stones. Now, in Hebrew, it's called a matzeba, the plural is matzevot. We get these sort of standing stones archaeologically at various places, matzevot. The sentiment is, as we get this in verse 6, right, and the Lord explains what's going on here, or at least Joshua explains what the Lord's instructions are. And Joshua says this in Joshua 4 verse 6, that this may be a sign among you that when your children ask their fathers in time to come saying, what mean ye by these stones? Then you shall answer them that the waters of Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant

of the Lord when it passed over Jordan, the waters of Jordan were cut off and the stone shall be for memorial unto the children of Israel forever. The Lord instructs Joshua, Joshua instructs the people, this is what we're going to do. We're going to carry these big stones over. We're going to set them up. And this is going to be a memorial so that when you and your kids come by here and they say, hey, dad, what's up with all the stones over there? You can tell them, this is what the Lord did. And it's a miracle.

And we remember, and we see later on, at the end of the chapter, once they come over, in verse 20, it says, And those twelve stones which they took out of Jordan, did Joshua pitch in Gilgal. And he spake unto the children of Israel, saying, When your children shall ask their fathers in time to come, saying, What mean these stones? Then ye shall let your children know, saying, Israel came over this Jordan on dry land. For the Lord your God dried up the waters of Jordan from before you until you were passed over as the Lord your God did to the Red Sea when he dried up from before us until we were gone over.

That all the people of the earth might know the hand of the Lord that is mighty, that ye might fear the Lord your God forever. Joshua says, this is what we do. And we're going to set these stones and it's going to be a memorial for you to be able to teach your children. And I think it's a great lesson. It sort of inspires me as I have two children and thinking about it. What kind of memorials am I setting up for them?

What am I doing in terms of lasting things that they can look to it and say, hey, Dad, what's this about? And I can tell them about what the Lord did for our family or for me personally or for Dr. Pierce Prime, as we call her, right? For Crystal. It just inspires me to think, like, what kind of memorials are we setting up for our children? And how do we memorialize what the Lord has done for us and recount those things? You know, that's great. I remember President Henry B. Eyring talking about kind of changing my whole understanding of why we keep journals. I remember President Kimball, before Hank's time, President Kimball, when I was a teenager, talking about keep a journal. And I probably wasn't listening closely enough to know why.

But President Eyring said, document the hand of God in your life. Then you have something to show your children. Here's where the Lord intervened or helped me in my life. And as a memorial, that's what the journal's for. Not just your trips and your trophies, but how did God intervene and help you in your life? So I love that here's another place where the Lord's saying, I want you to remember this. I mean, how many times are we getting these from Passover to tabernacles to now? Here's another.

I want you to remember this. John, I know you've had this opportunity as well. One of the great opportunities I feel like a blessing in my life is taking groups on church history tours. And there's these memorials, right? When you go out to Susquehanna in Pennsylvania or you go to Kirtland, George, I've been to Kirtland with you. It's like, what happened here? Yeah. Taking my children with those groups, and dad, what happened at Carthage Jail? What happened

here at Nauvoo? It doesn't have to be a church history trip. It can just be something in your life that you have in your house. Dad, why is that rock on your shelf, right? Where's that from? Well, this is a reminder of when God did this thing for me. I don't know. Can you see these for family home evening? Did they walk down to the Jordan River and look at the original stones and say, let's talk about what happened here? I was a kid. I remember this. Yeah, we have a tendency to forget.

So the Lord gives us memorials and tells us to make them. Yeah, how often last year, John, did we hear the Lord telling Joseph to make a history? Make a history. Somebody write this down. It's kind of interesting because the author of Joshua, because it's clear the book was not penned in Joshua's day, but the author of Joshua says that the stones are there unto this day. So, whenever that was, even centuries later, they could still see the stones and they could go down there and say, yeah, this is potent, it's a reminder. It's kind of how in our family on Memorial Day, we typically take trips to various

places that are associated mostly with Crystal's family because as a convert, my family were not pioneers. But her family was and we read off the stories to the kids. And I know at some point they're going to be like, dad, not the story again. But we're like, this is important, right? It's a memorial. Part of Crystal's family came over on the ship Brooklyn, traveled all the way around to San Francisco, Yerba Buena, and then traveled across land to Utah, only to be told as soon as they got here to go to Provo. And they went to Provo, and within, I think, just a matter of weeks, the wife and one of the children had died, and we're not sure why. We're not even sure where they're buried, but there's a memorial at the Provo Cemetery. And so, we go every Memorial Day

and we say, this is the story of people who had faith, who put feet to that faith and ships to that faith to sail on the ship Brooklyn and then come across the opposite way from California to Utah and to do that because they believed in the restoration, they believed in the church, and this is what they felt that the Lord was calling them to do, just to suffer and to have death befall them and all kinds of other troubles and tribulations. But that's their memorial in Provo Cemetery. And it's a powerful thing to recount those things and how the Lord preserved them and continue to preserve the church through their faithfulness. Yeah, Joshua 4 is an important chapter. The Lord is worried about

their children. Let your children know. When your children ask, let them know. Yeah, isn't that true? This is a testimony. Yeah, I think we also get an important confirmation, Hank, in Joshua 4, verse 14. On that day, so the day that they're crossing the Jordan, on that day the Lord magnified Joshua in the sight of all of Israel, and they feared him, so they respected him and obeyed him. They feared him as they feared Moses all the days of his life.

All that worry that Joshua had beforehand, which I'm sure the anxieties are still there, how are we going to take over Canaan and what are we going to do, right? All that though gets sort of put to the side as Joshua is magnified in the crossing of Israel across Jordan and all of Israel's like, yeah, we're going to obey him just like we obeyed Moses because we see what's going on here. Some great trust from chapter one to chapter four. Move forward, the Lord will magnify you. All this talk of children in chapter four has made me think of a talk from Elder Holland called A Prayer for the Children, which we've quoted before on this show. And here's Elder Holland.

This is a portion of that talk. He says, if in matters of faith and belief, children are at risk of being swept downstream by this intellectual current or that cultural rapid, we as their parents must be more certain than ever to hold to anchored, unmistakable moorings clearly recognizable to those of our own household. It won't help anyone if we go over the edge with them, explaining through the roar of the falls all the way down that we really did know the church was true and that the keys of the priesthood really were lodged there, but we just didn't want to stifle anyone's freedom to think otherwise. No, we can hardly expect the children to get to shore safely if the parents don't seem to know where to anchor their own boat. I think some parents may not understand that even when they feel secure

in their own minds regarding matters of personal testimony, they can nevertheless make that faith too difficult for their children to detect. And to me, that's Joshua 4.22. Let your children know what God has done for you. The line I remember is, if you flirt with skepticism, don't be surprised if your children turn that flirtation into full-blown romance, he says. And I said, you call it brainwashing. I call it teaching. I call it letting my children know what God has done for me. My heart, of course, goes out to anyone whose children are not part of the faith, who have left the faith. And by no means are we saying that you didn't tell them enough. But we are saying to those of us who are parents now and grandparents, let's let our children know.

Absolutely. I think that's a great statement. I love that the stripling warriors say, we do not doubt our mothers knew it. It doesn't say we know it, and maybe they did, but they said, we know our mothers knew. It was easy to know that their mothers knew. That's beautiful. And I have noticed, I bet this has been the same with both of you, that the best times to teach my children have not been formal family home evening moments. The other night, my daughter came home from a date. She was kind of discouraged.

And I went up to her room to say goodnight. I sat and rubbed her feet. And we just talked. And it wasn't a formal, we didn't have an opening prayer or closing prayer, but we were able to talk about God and life. And to me, those are the 12 stone moments where she is open to asking, you know, what mean ye by these 12 stones? What mean ye by the things you say, what you talk about? And it was another one of those moments. I'm sure both of you have had them. Oh, Hank, can I read a verse that's out of our present lesson today? It's Deuteronomy 6, 7. And this is a favorite of our family,

you'll be able to tell. Thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children. Thou shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. I think it's the Elder Uchtdorf, normal and natural ways. And sometimes it isn't the formal lesson, but we were driving the car or we're outside or something. I said, you know, this reminds me of something and we can have a little testifying moment like those 12 stones. Our producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen Shannon Sorensen, many of our listeners know that Steve passed away. It's interesting that he wrote to one of his daughters, Annabelle, every week on her mission. He emailed her every week and she kept every single one of those.

And now that he's gone, those emails have been turned into a booklet of testimony that each child has. That to me is a Joshua 4 type memorial. This is so important. My dad just sat down, I don't remember when, with a yellow pad and wrote his autobiography on a yellow pad. And my children don't know their grandpa. He passed away in 2004. So, Ashley remembers him a little bit. She was like five, six years old, but that's about it. He left something behind. His amazing story of joining the church when he was 24 after serving in World War II in the Navy.

And another plug for a journal today is a way to help our children remember important things happened to us, those 12 stones. Crystal's grandmother wasn informally trained. Nonetheless, she was a scholar of the scriptures. And so, we have her notebooks, just page after page of her notes and her observations and her thoughts on various different gospel topics and clippings from the newspaper when conference talks were printed. Just a fabulous memorial to have, encouraging all of us that

this generation, and again, we're talking about the generation that didn't come out of Egypt, but yet they're still told, you need to make these memorials because you need to remember the miracles that you experienced and pass them on to your children. And as I mentioned before, the author of Joshua says the stones are still there to this day. My mother-in-law passed away in 2014. My daughter, Madeline, was baptized in 2012. At her baptism, her grandmother, my mother-in-law, Marlene Savage, wrote her a testimony, wrote her a note. I'm sure Marlene did not know that this testimony would be the last thing that Madeline has from her, but it's kept in a little frame on my daughter's desk. And it just says,

Dear Madeline, what a special day this is. I think about that with Joshua 4. What a special day, right? You are now a witness for Jesus all of your life. I want you to know that I know he is our savior and redeemer, and he will be your helper and best friend. He can help you right wrongs or mistakes that you make. Your heavenly father is real, and he loves you. I know the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true. And by following those teachings, we learn as we attend church, we can return to live with heavenly father and Jesus again.

Always know I love you, Grandma Savage. And my daughter keeps this right on her bedside stand. I had to go and steal it from her. It's going to go away to college with her. And I'm sure it will be one of those things that even her children say, what mean ye by this note? Right? And she'll say, this was my grandmother who passed away. These are my dad's scriptures. I opened up and there's all these post-its here. And every time I read a note that he has written, I hear it in his voice. It's kind of fun. And then the back cover as well, all these lists. But it's so fun to see the things that he made a note about. And

it's a little, a 12-stone moment for me, too. I think Grandma Beck probably left us 12 white binders full of notes for scripture. So, I'll have to go count them upstairs when I get home, but I think she has, yeah, what mean you by these 12 white binders? Well, Victoria will say, what are those 12 white binders? Well, let me tell you. I'm going to let my children know. Please join us for part two of this podcast.