followHIM - Judges 2-4; 6-8; 13-16 -- Part 2 : Dr. Dana M. Pike

Episode Date: May 29, 2022

Dr. Pike continues his discussion of Gideon, and Deborah in the Book of Judges. Dr. Pike explores the story of Samson in the Book of Judges and shares his testimony as a scholar and man of faith.Please rate and review the podcast!Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/old-testament/Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing & SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts: French TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. We'll have to run through Ehud to get to Deborah. In chapter three, verse 10, the Spirit of the Lord came upon him. This is our first judge whom we're skipping over really quickly, Othniel. And you could ask yourself this question. We're reading about judges. You said there were 12. How were they chosen?

Who picked the judges? It's not a lottery system. We never hear about elections. This is the standard feature, and it's not mentioned in the case of every judge, but several of them. This is our line, and it's going to happen later with young Saul as well that we read the Spirit of the Lord came upon the person. They're gifted with divine assistance, capabilities. People seem to recognize that and attribute it as gifts from the Lord to this person to help them out. So verse 10, the spirit of the Lord came upon him. He judged Israel. He went out to war. There's the judging that we end up hearing about is the, I'm a military leader. I'm going to help free my tribe, my neighboring tribes from the oppression of these neighbors who live around us. I wrote a talk called Five Temptation Killers, and I used this story from Ehud and Eglon. I said,

Eglon represents addiction, and Ehud is you, and how do you stab addiction and get rid of it? And Ehud escaped this Eglon who was this Jabba the Hutt type character. Ehud does his thing and the land rests. This is chapter 3, verse 30. Moab was subdued. The land had rest for four score years, 80 years. And then in verse 31, here's our only information about a fellow named Shamgar, the son of Anad, who slew Philistines, killed 600 men with an ox goad and helped deliver Israel. And we're done with him. And we moved on to Deborah in chapter four.

And actually chapters four and five deal with Deborah. Chapter four is the prose narration of these events. Chapter five is poetry. And if you look at five, one, then saying Deborah and Barak, the Israelite military leader with her. And they sing a song. And hopefully this reminds readers of Exodus chapter 15. In chapter 14, the Lord delivers them through the Reed Sea, the Red Sea. They get to the other side. The Egyptians are destroyed. And they sing about it

in Exodus 15, Moses and people. And then Miriam helps lead some of the women in singing in that setting. Here we've got Deborah and Barak singing praises to the Lord, recounting the events, describing the Lord's power and how it was he who won the battle, this divine warrior motif that it's God and the hosts. He's called the Lord of hosts. And we sometimes think, yeah, that's all the angels sitting around him. That can be in some cases, but hosts is also a very common military term in the Old Testament or the Hebrew Bible. The hosts came out in number to fight. And as we go through here, as I mentioned, this divine warrior, it's God who's fighting, it's God who's ultimately responsible for delivering Israel

as it's being portrayed here. And there are a few little differences between what's in chapter four and what's in chapter five. I think Come Follow Me only included chapter four, but if you want to read the poetry, and I always say if you're reading biblical poetry, it's much more enjoyable, and I think it's more educational to read it out loud and to read it slowly as poetry. Here's the narration. Chapter four, verse one.. Israelites did evil in the sight of the Lord. After Ehud had died, the Lord sold them into the hand of Yabin, the king of Canaan. He's the king in Hazor, which is a major Canaanite city a little bit north of the Sea of Galilee. So in the upper Galilee, as we call it. His general is Sisera. They're oppressing the Israelites up in the north

anyway. Verse 3, children of Israel cry unto the Lord. And he has, Sisera, this Canaanite general, has 900 chariots. 20 years has oppressed the children of Israel. And now in verse 4, we're introduced to Deborah, a prophetess. We've heard Miriam described as a prophetess, Deborah here. Later on in the book of Nehemiah, Noadia, a woman we don't know much about, is described as a prophetess. Huldah in 2 Kings is called a prophetess. Isaiah's wife is called a prophetess. And for Latter-day Saints, that often raises the question, well, they don't have Melchizedek priesthood, how can they be a prophetess? I mean, I would take it at face value, right, that these women were blessed with gifts of the Spirit and calling somehow, a calling from the Lord to represent him and speak for him and serve his people, however that worked. Formally, institutionally, perhaps different than how we're used to using thinking of a prophet nowadays,

but definitely had a role to play at different times in Israelite history. Chapter 4, verse 4, Deborah the prophetess, again, her husband's name, she judged Israel at this time. Again, I'm thinking this is part of Israel for a particular period. Maybe there are other people already judging in other areas as well. She sits under a tree, a palm tree, and it became known as the palm tree of Deborah, because that's where she would sit regularly between Ramah and Bethel in Ephraim, the territory of Ephraim. And the children of Israel came up to her for judgment, to make decisions. And so I mentioned earlier, this is the only time in the book of Judges where we actually have a

reference to a judge judging or deciding or arbitrating, dealing with cases that were brought to her. Maybe this happened a lot and we just don't hear about it, but that's always the question. They sound more like military leaders in most of the book. The depiction primarily has a military focus in the book of Judges. And this is what I find interesting in verse six. She sat and called Barak, who's an Israelite military leader and says, hasn't the Lord God of Israel commanded you essentially saying, go down to Mount Tabor, get thousands of men from Naphtali and Zebulon, these tribes up in the Galilee region. I, verse seven, I will draw unto you. So this is I the Lord, right? Hasn't God said, I will draw Sisera to you and I, God, verse 7, will deliver him into your hand.

So she's saying the Lord has spoken already, probably through her. We don't hear about anybody else. And she's saying, how come you're not doing this? Get with the program, assemble the troops, the hosts from these tribes, and get to Mount Tabor, which is in the Jezreel or on the edge of the Jez assemble the troops, the hosts from these tribes, and get to Mount Tabor, which is in the Jezreel or on the edge of the Jezreel Valley, again, where the Canaanites are controlling. And as many people have said, chariots in antiquity were kind of like tanks in modern warfare, right? These are powerful things. And if you're rolling your horses, pulling your chariot

through a group of infantry people, They're going to get run over. They're going to get hurt. It says 900 chariots. This is a pretty mighty military contingent that Sisera has. How does Barak respond to what Deborah says? If you go with me, verse 8, then I'll go. Otherwise, I'm not going. I'm not going to lead out here because this looks hopeless. And if you, Deborah, go with me, Barak, then I have a sense that the Lord will be with us and he'll do what he says you're saying he will do. And so she said, okay, I'll go. But what does she say? Verse seven, I'll go, but you better know right now, it won't be, the victory won't be for your honor, for the Lord will sell Sisera into the hand of a woman. Now, you might think at this point that Deborah is going to be the one who's the woman, right, who's kind of cheered on for the victory.

But we read through the chapter, we find out that there's another woman involved as well. The story unfolds. They go out. They meet in the valley, they fight. Verse 13, Sisera gathered all his chariots, the 900 chariots. They're fighting in the valley. Verse 14, Deborah says to Barak, right, again, her Israelite military leader, get up. This is what the Lord said he's going to do. The Lord has delivered Sisera into your hands. So again, this is attributed to divine intervention here. Has not the Lord gone out before you? Verse 15, so the Lord discomfited. And if you don't know that word, there's a note that explains

that's old English for put into a panic, right? So he caused a panic and the Canaanite forces are fleeing and Sisera hops off his chariot to run away to save his own life. And then verse 18 in the next few verses are this fairly well-known account where he runs to a tent. It's Heber and Yael. Heber is out getting fast food or something in Yael's home. And Sisera says, listen, I need a place to hide and put me in here. And if anybody comes, tell them I'm not here. He's exhausted from hours or a day of fighting. So verse 19, she opens up a bottle of milk. Again, this is probably an animal skin of goat milk or something.

Says, here, have some milk. Maybe it'll help you get even a little drowsier. He lays down, he gets covered up. And then in verse 21, Yael is her name. Heber's wife took a nail of a tent. So she takes a tent peg and a hammer or a club, as some people render it, in her hand and went to him while he's laying asleep

in the back of the tent and drove the nail right through his head and nailed him to the ground. He was asleep and he never woke up, right? He was dead. Barak pursued Sisera. Yael comes out to say, hey, I've already taken care of this. And this is the woman who's going to get the glory for killing the Canaanite general. So, verse 23, God subdued on that day Yabin, the king of Canaan, Sisera was the general, before the children of the Lord. And then we go into the poetic song in chapter 5 that kind of re-narrates in its own poetic way, celebrates the victory. So, you might say, what can I get out of that narration in chapter four? What lessons

could I learn? The Lord says, I'm going to help you if you go out and do your part. Deborah encourages Barak, they go out and do their part, and the Lord comes through. I mean, this is kind of an underlying theme, but it's worth highlighting over and over. The Lord's going to follow through on what he says if we're willing to participate with him. And you might think I'm trying to make something nice out of a story that doesn't have anything nice, but that seems to be the principle that the Lord brings about his purposes and will deliver you if you're willing to work with him. And it may take time and there may be violence or challenges or hardships along the way. Judges is going to tell us the Lord always comes through. Yeah. And then there's also this idea from Barak in verse eight,

if thou will go with me, then I will go. Meaning I know you're inspired of God. I go where you go. I'm feeling concerned and I need help and support. And you're the person who can provide that or represent that to me, which is not unlike when we get into chapter six with Gideon. He needs reassurance multiple times. He's depicted in chapter six and seven as quite fearful. That changes in chapter eight, and he seems to have overcome that with God's help. But he's a little, more than once, needs a little extra help and reassurance along the way. And that's a little, more than once, needs a little extra help and reassurance along the way. And that's not such a bad lesson either, that if we feel the need for help and reassurance, it's okay to say that. It's okay to be honest and ask for that.

I like that, Dana. So, all of five is a song. Dana, could you sing that for us just in Hebrew? You don't want me to sing. Thank you anyway for the offer. When you get to chapter 5, verse 31, it's the last verse in the chapter. Let all your enemies perish, O Lord. Let them that love him be as the sun when he goes forth in his might. It kind of flips the language, and we think the him now is the Lord, right? And the land had rest for 40 years. Again, there's that narrative framework tacked on at the end to tell us some multiple of 40, right? In this case, it is 40. I bet I know what's going to come next.

Oh, well, then why don't you read chapter 6, verse 1 for us, just so we'll see if you're right. I'm guessing if there's rest in the land, then they were going to do something wrong. Let's take a look. Chapter 6, verse 1, and the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and the Lord delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years. So, it's almost a here we go again. We think it's constructed or formulated that way purposefully to show that the ups and the downs or the going around of the cycle. And so Midian is depicted in Genesis 25 as one of the sons of Abraham and Keturah. And we know Jethro and Zipporah and their family, the Midianites, were Midianites. But the Midianites are this group of people that are moving up and down out of Northwest Arabia, moving up along the eastern side of the Jordan River

Valley. Occasionally they come into the western side of the Jordan River Valley. Occasionally, they come into the western side of the Jordan River into the land of Israel proper, the Jezreel Valley and other places we hear about them. And so, yeah, Midianites, a shifting group of people over centuries, and the Amalekites likewise. And for our purposes, that's probably enough. But chapter 6, verse 5, these people are like grasshoppers for multitude. They're all over the place. And the Israelites in verse 6 are crying unto the Lord, as we know the cycle. And in this case, it's one of the few cases where we hear about a prophet.

Chapter 6, verse 7 and 8, the Israelites cry to the Lord for help because of the Midianites, and the Lord sent a prophet unto them. Thus says the Lord God of Israel. And now this is going to be presented in first person again. The prophet speaking by divine investiture as if he is the Lord. The end of verse 8. I brought you up from Egypt, brought you out of the house of bondage. I delivered you from the Egyptians, brought you here and tried to drive out the people and give you the lands.

Verse 10. I said unto you, I am the Lord, I am Jehovah, your God. Fear not the other gods of the people, but you didn't obey me. And there came an angel, verse 11. And now we're going to be introduced, an angel, it's a messenger. Again, you decide if it's human or divine. We find out as we go along. We're introduced to Gideon's father, whose name is Joash. They're living in the territory of Manasseh. It sounds eventually like this is a divine angel or divine messenger, an angel in the sense that we think. But here's the verse that you started this videocast with, Hank.

And the angel of the Lord appeared 612 unto Gideon and said, The Lord is with you. You are a mighty man of valor. Gideon said to him, Oh, my Lord. This is Lord, not all in caps. So it's, Oh, my Lord. He's talking to this divine messenger. If Jehovah is with us, then why are we having all these problems? So you're saying the Lord is with us, but I'm not seeing it exactly.

This is an interesting little conversation that he has with the angel. Didn't the Lord bring us up out of Egypt? But now the Lord has forsaken us and delivered us into the hand of the Midianites. You can decide whether Gideon's worldview is out of whack or this is more rhetorical, like saying, yeah, well, if he's really with us, we sure are having a lot of hardships with these Midianites. Verse 14, and now it says, the Lord looked on him and said, and there's a challenge here. Is this really the Lord talking to him? Or is it the angel speaking as the Lord?

And it just says the Lord is talking to him. It goes back and forth a little here. But Jehovah says to him, go in this thy might and thou shalt save Israel. This is his call, so to speak, right? He'll save Israel from the Midian call, so to speak, right? He'll save Israel from the Midianites, haven't I sent you? And he said, verse 15, oh my Lord, sounds like he's talking to the angel again, wherewith, or how am I going to save Israel? I'm from this poor tribe,

from a poor family, I'm the least in my father's house. Verse 16, the Lord, Jehovah says, surely I will be with you. That is meant to be very encouraging to him. Yeah, it's a lot of people who get calls from the Lord to do hard things, right? The promise, surely I will be with you. You shall smite the Midianites as one man. And he said, if now I have found grace, show me a sign. Now, this isn't the fleece. That's not till chapter 7. But he's already saying, I'm a little anxious about this.

I'm a little, maybe a little doubtful, fearful. Need a little reassurance. So he's going to make a meal, if you will. Puts it on the rock. Angel goes up in the fire. And he thinks, whoa, verse 22. When Gideon perceived this was really a divine angel of the Lord, he said, alas, O Lord God,

for because I have seen an angel of the Lord face to face, and there's this tradition throughout a number of biblical texts that to see God or an angel meant you might die. We're going to hear this again with Samson's parents as well in a few chapters. Verse 22, alas, O Lord God. Lord is not all in caps, but what is? God is. It's the word God is all in caps. And this happens actually several times in Judges and dozens of times throughout the Old Testament. And that's your clue that in this case,

right, we said that the Lord all in caps is a substitute title right the Hebrew word that's pronounced is I don't I don't I so that you don't say Yahweh right so Lord and caps tells me it's the divine name but the practice became I'm going to say the Lord as a title for God instead of the divine name itself well here we've got alas Oh Adonai Yahweh. So rather than the translators, and this is the same in modern translations as well, rather than saying, O Lord, Lord, all in caps, they've put God in place of the divine name Yahweh and capitalized it. So you'll know that is the divine name. It's Adonai Yahweh, O Lord Yahweh. But the translators have put O Lord God

so that they don't have to use their usual substitution, which is to put Lord all in caps. Because it would say O Lord, Lord. O Lord, Lord. Wow. One in all in caps, one not, and that would look weird to people. And so, again, there are all kinds of challenges in translating an ancient text

for modern readers, right? And that's just kind of a fun example. An easy place to see this also is in Amos 3.7, a verse that Latter-day Saints like a lot. It's the same situation. God is all in caps, right? Surely the Lord God will do nothing, right? God is all in caps. Because it's the Lord God will do nothing, right? God is all in caps, because it's the same Hebrew. It's Adonai Yahweh.

Either way, Gideon is saying to the Lord, wow, I hadn't quite expected that. I've seen an angel and maybe my life's in danger. I just wanted a little bit of a sign. Verse 24, Gideon built an altar to the Lord, to Yahweh, Jehovah, right? And called it Jehovah Shalom. And it's still there if you happen to be in that day. So Jehovah Shalom is one of the few times the word Jehovah is spelled out in English

in the Old Testament. And Shalom, most people will know, is the Hebrew word for peace. That connects back to verse 23, which we just skipped over. The Lord said unto him, peace be unto you. Don't fear, you're not going to die. So he builds an altar and names the altar Jehovah is peace because he's promised me peace or well-being,

right? It's another way to render shalom. Anyway, he's given a charge. He is told to go throw down the altar of Baal, which his father has. This is the end of verse 25. And cut down the grove that is by it, this tree or the symbolic representation of a tree that's meant to represent Asherah. So you've got an altar to Baal and a representation of Asherah. And he's supposed to go cut these down. And he's a little nervous about this. So he gets 10 of his friends and they go out at night and they knock down the altar. They cut down the Asherah. And then the people get up in the morning in the town and say, hey, what happened?

You know, who's come in and messed up our altar and wrecked the Asherah? Verse 29, who has done this? And word gets out, obviously, that it's Gideon. And so they say to his father in verse 30, bring him out. We're going to kill him. And his father, fortunately, stands up for him. Verse 31, and Joash, the father of Gideon, says to all those that sit around him, will you plead for Baal?

Can't he take care of himself if somebody comes and wrecks his altar? Can't Baal do something about this? You know, who's appointed you to come and to act for him? Middle of that verse 31, let him plead for himself or contend for himself because somebody cast down his altar. Verse 32, therefore on that day,

they called him Gideon Yerubbael because saying, let Baal plead against him. So Yerubbael, the literary explanation is let Baal plead, right? So as we read along, we've got Gideon and Yerubael, two different names for the same person. That's the origin of the name Yerubael as it's presented to us. Verse 34, the spirit of the Lord came upon Gideon. There's our sign that the Lord's going to be with him to magnify him.

He calls people from Asher, Zebulon, and Naphtali in verse 35, as well as Manasseh. So there are four tribes, but there are 12 tribes. You know, again, this seems to be a regional activity, not everybody together. And they're ready to fight, but he's still not quite sure he can do this. So verse 36, Gideon says, if you will save Israel by my hand, give me a sign. Verse 37, I'll put the fleece out, the sheepskin, the wool fleece out on the floor. And if in the morning there's dew on the fleece, but the ground is dry, then I'll know you really want me to do this and you'll help me do it, Lord. So what happens? Does it? Verse 39, Gideon said to God, don't be angry, right?

Don't let your anger be hot against me. I will speak unto you this once. I mean, one more time. One more time. Right? Let me prove. And so here's Gideon saying, let me prove you this once with the fleece. Let it now be dry only on the fleece, but all the ground be due. So we repeat the sign with a twist. And God did so, verse 40, that night, for it was dry upon the fleece only,

and there was dew on the ground. So Gideon now feels like, okay, the Lord showed me, he's going to be with me, let's go. And they gather to the spring of Herod, which is on the edge of the Jezreel Valley. And this is the setup, right? And you know the setup in chapter seven. This is an important chapter. Gideon ends up assembling thousands of men to fight against the Midianites. And what's the Lord say to him? Way too many people. I mean, that's a surprise, right? If you want all the guys you could get, I would think, right? Usually you want to outnumber the enemy, yeah. So the Lord says way too many people. And the question is, why does the Lord tell them to get rid of some of the fighters, fighting men? People won't believe, they'll think it was them and not the Lord, right?

Exactly. He said, I don't want this to look like you did it yourselves. I want people to appreciate that I, the Lord, delivered Israel, right, with you, but I'm the power behind this. And so you can read that, and there's the means he devises in chapter 5 and following, right, that they put their heads down into the water to drink, that they lift it up into their hands to lap it out of their hands, and they separate 300 out of that into verse six.

And verse seven, the Lord says to Gideon, by the 300 men that lapped, I will save you. Right? So again, this is all presented as if it's the Lord who's doing the ultimate delivering is the ultimate power. I'm going to save you from the Midianites. And so Gideon still is a little nervous. And so that night he's told to go down to the camp. And he said, if you're to the Midianite camp, and if you're really worried, take your buddy with you. Verse 10, if you fear to go down, take Phura, your servant, with you. And so he does. And the two of them sneak into the Midianite camp.

And over here, these two Midianites talking. Oh, I had a dream. Verse 13, when Gideon was come, behold, there was a man that told the dream to his fellow and said, behold, I had a dream. Verse 13, when Gideon was come, behold, there was a man that told the dream to his fellow and said, behold, I dreamed a dream. This is standard Hebrew grammar, right? We hear it in the Book of Mormon as well. A cake of barley tumbled into the host of Midian and came into the tent and knocked down the tent. And this fellow says, verse 14, here's the interpretation. This is nothing except it's the sword of Gideon, the son of Joash, a man of Israel, and God is going to help him deliver the Israelites from the Midianites.

So Gideon goes back and thinks, okay, this is like the fourth time he's had a sign of some sort that God is going to be with him, right? So he gets everybody, his men together, the 300, they divide into three groups. And you know the story. They have trumpets. It says trumpet. It's the Hebrew word is shofar. This is the ram horn that they've turned into a horn to blow in one hand. And they have a clay pitcher with a torch in it in the other hand. And what's interesting here is they don't have any weapons. If you've got both hands occupied, you don't have your sword. You don't have your arrows.

You don't have your dagger. You've got the trumpet, the shofar, and you've got the pitcher, as it says, the jar with the torch in it, the light. And that's it. Who's going to do the fighting? Well, it's God who's going to do the fighting as we read the story. So he says, I'm going to blow the trumpet and break the jar and it'll be light. And you do the same thing all at the same time. And we're all going to shout the end of verse 14, the sword of, and sword of is in italics because that's not in the Hebrew text here. It's for Yahweh, Jehovah, and Gideon. And then we get down to the end of verse 20,

where they actually do this and they all cry out the sword of the Lord and of Gideon. Well, Gideon apparently doesn't have a sword, but the point is it's the Lord who's got the weaponry, the power, and all the hosts of the Midianites are afraid. They think there are way more than 300 Israelites, and they take off. And Gideon and his men follow them and kill them along the way, and he's victorious is the point of this, or God helps him to be victorious and they to be victorious. Well, I liked what you kept saying. You said he needs reassurance and the Lord gives him reassurance. He is someone so far that his faith has a short shelf life, right? That he has these reassurances, he feels excited, and then it kind of wanes quickly, I guess. That doesn't seem to be a bad thing.

Yeah, yeah. It may wane. It may just, for him, it wasn't sufficient to keep going. I can remember going way back when I was in love with the woman who became my wife, and I became her husband. I thought, I said, Lord, I really love Jane, but is this a good thing? You know, is this what you want? Is this going to be productive for her and for me? Is this a good thing? And I got a good feeling about it. And a week or two later, I'm in the temple and saying, you know, I know I've asked this before, Lord, but would you bless us

in this relationship? Is this a good thing? I can't tell you how many weeks I must have offered that same prayer. And the answer was always yes, but I just wanted a little more assurance. I guess I was nervous fairly young. And I guess I'm not alone in having had some experience similar to that where people said, Lord, let me ask you one more time. What do you think about this? Are you okay with this? Yeah. So, yeah, I get that. I get that. Other lessons, the Lord is merciful and willing to work with him. He's been chosen. So the Lord doesn't just throw him out the door. He hasn't done anything completely haywire way off the rails. He's not out in the

weeds somewhere. He's trying to do what the Lord's asked him to do, but needs that extra insurance, that extra strength, and the Lord's willing to work with him. I think that's a great lesson. I liked chapter six where he says, who am I? I am a nobody, but the Lord sees a mighty man of valor. That's often how you might see yourself. Who am I? I'm a nobody. And the Lord said, oh, you just watch. Pete I can make more of you than you can make of yourself. And we have other examples of that in scripture as well. We've already read Moses, but we'll see others as well. I like the part we just read in chapter seven. Ultimately, it's the Lord who's going to fight our battles and help us to be successful in our mortal life.

Back in the 70s, maybe Elder Hanks gave a talk called The Sword of the Lord and of Gideon, and used this chapter. But this sense that it's the sword of the Lord and of Gideon. Well, who's the major power here? It's the Lord. And if we bind ourselves to the Lord through covenant, and if we remain in that covenant relationship, and covenants are all about relationships. The way we're talking here in the Bible, you're in the relationship with Jehovah alone, or you're bringing other gods into the relationship and messing up that primary relationship. But here, it's in a relationship with the Lord. He's got the power to deliver us. I mean, I have that trust that the Lord will overcome everything eventually. The passage in Isaiah that gets picked up in Revelation about dry every tear from our

eyes, I accept that. So, I trust that the Lord can deliver me even though we have challenges and problems and accidents and hardships and heartbreaks and all kinds of things along the way. So, if I'm looking for applications that those are two that I need some reassurance and I trust that God will ultimately deliver all of the faithful children of his here on the earth. Just in the manual, it makes a little comment about looking at Judges 6 through 8. It says, to receive the Lord's miracles in our lives, we must trust in his ways, even when his ways seem unusual. All of us have gone through something where we've looked back and went, whoa, oh, I was really being helped or guided back then and I didn't realize it. That's a faith building pattern.

It has been for me to look back and go, wow, I was being helped back then. I thought it should have come out like this, but it turned out being better. We've already mentioned this passage earlier, but let me just focus as we drive by here. Chapter 8, 22 and 23. The drive by scripture study. Yeah, sadly. The men of Israel said unto Gideon, rule thou over us. You've, 22 and 23. The drive-by scripture study. Yeah, sadly. The men of Israel said unto Gideon, rule thou over us. You've led us in victory. We're successful. You're the man. You

rule over us and we'll set up a dynasty, your son and your son's sons, because of what you've been able to accomplish. And he says in verse 23, I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you. The Lord, this is Jehovah, shall rule over you. Gideon says this is not the time to start a monarchy. The Lord is still our king, and we're going to keep this religious slash family-based kingdom of his going. Now, that doesn't last for long. Already in the next chapter, somebody's going to try the monarchy out. But so you think, yay, good for you. I noticed that as soon as Gideon is dead, the children of Israel turned again and remembered not the Lord their God. So we're back to our cycle here at the end of eight.

Yep. Correct. Yes. We get the program notes telling us the cycle continues. Chapter nine is a little bit of a detour. We hear about a fellow named Abimelech. He's a son of Gideon who has 70 sons. And this fellow is the son of Gideon, your concubine. And he decides he's got his mother's from Shechem and he's got connections. And so he decides, my dad doesn't want to be king. I'd be happy to be king, right? And here's a warning as well. This wasn't part of the reading, but whenever't want to be king, I'd be happy to be king, right? And here's a warning as well. This wasn't part of the reading, but whenever somebody wants to be king, you have to step back and wonder. So, he gets some of the Shechemites to help him and proclaim him king. And he thinks

he kills all of his stepbrothers, the 70 sons or at least 69 of the sons of Gideon. But one gets away. His name is Jotham and he runs up on the mountain by Shechem. This is verse 7, chapter 9, verse 7, and shouts out this parable, an anti-monarchy message. And it's saying, if you make this guy a king, it's going to come back to bite you. And it does in the story. The Shechemites have problems because of this. And eventually Abimelech at the end of chapter nine is in military action and, who's just had his skull bashed in, says to his armor bearer, take your sword out and kill me so it won't be said that a woman slew me. I don't want to die at the hand of a woman. Now, Sisera didn't have a chance to say that back at the end of chapter four when Yael killed him.

Who got taken through the temple. Chapter 10 and 11 were not part of the suggested reading in Come Follow Me. Chapter 11 has a story that I love because it's a problematic account that's related here. When I say love, it's not because it's nice and warm and fuzzy by any means, but it's thought-provoking, I think. And I often spend time with students on this. It's the story of Jephthah the Gileadite.

Gilead is the region east of the Jordan River Valley. He's the son of a harlot we hear in chapter 11, verse 1. So already we're supposed to think his social status is lesser. And he's not treated well by his family. But, oh, there's oppression. And everybody knows Jephthah's a really talented guy in battle, so let's go get Jephthah to help deliver us from the Ammonites. Verse 30,

And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, unto Jehovah, and said, If you will without fail, right, if you will certainly deliver the children of Ammon into my hands when I go out to fight them, and again with other help, then it shall be that whatsoever, some translations render it whosoever, and into my hands when I go out to fight them, and again with other help, then it shall be that whatsoever, some translations render it whosoever, comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me when I return in peace from fighting the Ammonites. Surely that shall be the Lord's, and I will offer it up as a burnt offering. And this is a fairly well-known passage.

So he vows this vow, whatever comes out of my house first, I give it to the Lord as a burnt offering. And the Hebrew word really is olah. It's the word that's used for burnt offering throughout Genesis, throughout Exodus, throughout the rest of the Bible. There's no question what he's talking about. So he goes off and he fights, verse 32 and following, and everything's grand. We don't hear much about the fighting, but he's successful in subduing the Ammonites. Verse 34, Jephthah came to Mizpah unto his house. This is not the Mizpah north of Jerusalem.

It's another Mizpah over east of the Jordan River. Unto his house and behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and dancing and singing. He's all excited. Dad has come home. He's in one piece. He's healthy.

He's successful. She's celebrating. And his response, verse 35, rends his clothes in distress and says, alas, my daughter, you have brought me very low. You are the one who troubles me. I open my mouth unto the Lord and I can't go back. Our standard explanation is that these folks were living in houses that had little courtyards and open areas into the house. They're called pillared houses, three or four rooms, a couple of rooms parallel and one in the back. And the chickens and goats and sheep would be wandering in and out of the house.

And we typically say, oh, he's assuming that whatever animal comes out, I'm going to offer to the Lord. I don't care if it's the biggest or the best or what. But in this case, it's his daughter. And so she says, verse 36, my father, if you've opened your mouth to the Lord, do to me what you've promised him. But do me this little favor. Let me have two months to go out on the hills and with my friends and hang out and say, I'm never going to be married. I'm never going to have children. And that's what happens. Verse 39, at the end of two months, she returned to her father who did to her according to the vow, which she had vowed. Now it doesn't say he actually killed her and burned her body as a sacrificial offering, but that's the intent of the passage. Boy, that makes us squeamish.

And then so we, some size says, well, maybe he really didn't do it. It just says he did it. I think the authors are expecting you'll believe that this is what he did. And so the question I always ask my students is, did he do the right thing? Should he have kept his vow to the Lord? His daughter certainly supports him in doing that. And she's going to die. So which is more important? Taking a human life as an offering or keeping your promise to God?

And a God who doesn't want human sacrifice. Let's go back to Deuteronomy 23 for one minute. Be more careful, Dana. Well, that's a lesson. Be more careful with what you vow, for sure. And if you're going to enter into a sacred covenant or make a vow, make sure you know what you're doing, without a doubt. But look at Deuteronomy. There are a couple of passages we could read.

We'll only read this one. Deuteronomy 23, verses 21 through 23. John, if you have that, you want to read that, please? When thou shalt vow a vow unto the Lord thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it. For the Lord thy God will surely require it of thee, and it would be sin in thee. But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee. That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform, even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the Lord thy God, which thou hast

promised with thy mouth. There's a context for that passage as well. You could also read, we won't look it up, but Ecclesiastes chapter 5 verses, I think it's 2 through 5. Ecclesiastes probably doesn't have quite the same authority as Deuteronomy does, but it says essentially the same thing. So my point is, in the biblical tradition, Deuteronomy, Judges 11, Ecclesiastes 5, there's a sense that if you make a vow, you better do it. So I'm still back to the question, did he do the right thing? Well, in their world, he feels bound by that. Now, I am going to say, I don't think he did the right thing. Yeah.

But in his culture, in his religious world, that was the expectation. And even his daughter, as I said, is supportive of that. Lessons to be learned. Clearly, be careful what you vow. In this case, we often say he should have been more specific. Whatever animal comes out. Yeah. Not whatever, whoever comes out from my door.

Secondly, when we get to chapter 20 and 21 at the end of Judges, if we get that far, it wasn't part of the reading and come follow me. The Benjaminites, something horrible happens in Gibeah, a town in Benjamin. It ends up provoking a war. It's the only time we hear about all the tribes together. The 11 tribes get together and almost wipe out Benjamin. And they have vowed a vow that they're not ever going to give their daughters to the Benjaminites. So they have to concoct a couple of different ways to help keep the surviving Benjaminite men alive and have spouses for them so they can marry and reconstitute the tribe of Benjamin. And so they say, on the one hand, we've made this vow. We can't break the vow we've made. Again, reflecting this mentality.

But we're going to find another way around it. And so I often wonder if it worked for them at the end of Judges, why couldn't it work for Jephthah in chapter 11, in the middle of the book of Judges? Find a way around this. You know what I meant, Lord? Here's my best heifer. You know what I meant, and it wasn't that. Give it freely instead of my daughter. It's thought-provoking, but it's worth considering the significance of the vows we make. And when we make a promise, are we that committed to doing what we have promised and following through,

especially if we're talking promises or vows that we've made to the Lord? Absolutely. Yeah, that is a story I've never even heard. Hank, I've heard you joke about you don't like cats. Your wife loves cats, so you compromised and now you have two cats, right? Yeah. Maybe that's what he meant. Whatever comes forth out of the doors of my house to meet me, let it be whiskers. Let it be whiskers, right?

Yeah, please, please, please. Does Jephthah, does he just fundamentally misunderstand the Lord's character? I mean, if he would say the Lord wouldn't want me to do this. I know him. I think it's an analogous situation in Genesis 19 and when we get later to Judges 19 and 20. Or hospitality, which is a great principle in their world, premier principle, that if somebody's out in the street and needs a place to stay, you bring them into your house, you feed them, you put them up overnight, whatever. But in Genesis 19 and at the end of Judges, hospitality goes amok. I mean, this goes crazy where they're willing to do anything to support the principle of hospitality, even when it's

the abuse of women. I see this as kind of the same, an example of kind of the same thing where, yeah, vowing a vow, you never break your vow, you keep it no matter what. But see this as kind of the same, an example of kind of the same thing where, yeah, vowing a vow, you never break your vow. You keep it no matter what. But in this case, there had to be another way around this. Don't follow through and commit what I consider to have been a greater sin by killing his daughter. Strength becomes a weakness when you take it too far. Let's get to Samson. 13 through 16 is about Samson. And interestingly, chapter 13 really isn't much about Samson at all. It's about his parents and the divine interaction that relates to promises about his birth. It's worth reading that carefully. Again, we're talking in this case about Danites but if we look at chapter 13 verse 1 Jonah Lord did evil we're back to the

cycle here's the formula again in the sight of the Lord and the Lord delivered them into the hand of the Philistines 40 years of this Philistines are non-semitic people living on the southeast coast of the Mediterranean Sea they've been in the area probably only about a hundred years or less by this time. Nonetheless, they're moving from the coast up into the valleys. The Israelites are trying to move into the valleys down towards the coast because the land's so nice. And the Philistines are bothering the Danites who get this little segment of territory off to the side of Judah. An angel of the Lord, verse 3. And again, it's the Hebrew's messenger. You have to wait and find out, is he a divine messenger or a human messenger?

But comes and finds this woman who turns out to be the mother of Samson. And said, you're barren, but you're going to bear. You shall conceive and bear a son. Verse 4. Now, here's the catch. Beware, don't you drink any wine or strong drink or eat anything unclean. This is unclean according to the Mosaic law, right? What's ritually accepted or ritually not accepted. And lo, verse 5, you will conceive, no razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a

Nazarite from birth or from the womb. And he will begin, and here's the qualifier, right? He will begin to deliver Israel from the hand of the Philistines. Now, Samson doesn't succeed in accomplishing that. Saul doesn't succeed in accomplishing that. This is an ongoing process, but he's going to be part of that. And so she tells her husband, hey, I had this experience, this man of God, this messenger of God came and kind of looked angelic, like divine. And he gave me this promise that we're going to have a baby and he's supposed to be a Nazirite from the womb.

When he comes out, he's considered a Nazirite. So we could stop and say, what's a Nazirite? You may recall back in number six. We talked about this just a little bit, but I would love for you just, it was a way for non-Levites to commit themselves to the Lord. Is that right? Yeah. In number six, we've got as part of the Mosaic instructions, the Lord says, if people want to put themselves in an extra sacred relationship with me for a certain time, and it's depicted there as relatively temporary. Latter-day Saints like to use the analogy of full-time missions.

I'm going to commit myself full-time to the Lord for a couple of years, and when I'm done, then I go back to regular life. There's sacrificial offerings that are supposed to conclude the Nazarite vow when you step out of that extra dedicated or set-apart status of devotion to the Lord. It doesn't mean you're more or less devoted, but you're putting yourself in a certain status and you agree not to do certain things, right? So the three things that are mentioned in number six are you won't cut your hair, you won't drink wine or strong drink or eat any of the grapevine products, and you won't touch dead people, which would render you ritually unclean. Those are the three that are mentioned there. Here we've got an unusual situation where Samson's mother is told that he will, Samson was a baby and through his whole life, whether he wants to or not, is going to be a Nazirite and expected to be living by these restrictions. And in the accounts that follow, it's only the hair that

really is the restriction that has the most importance attached to it. He touches the dead lion. He drinks wine. Nothing seems to happen. But in his case, it's the hair that's the secret of his strength. That's that connection to the Nazarite vow. In verse 24, the woman has a son. They call his name Samson. The Spirit of the Lord began to move upon him. And we're already from Samson baby to Samson adult. And chapter 14, he's gone down to Timnath and sees one of the Philistine women and says, yeah, I want to marry her. And true to his culture, he goes back to his parents and says, arrange this marriage for me. I don't know much about her, but she's good looking.

And, oh, she's a Philistine. So what? I should be married an Israelite in my culture. That would be expected. His parents say to him, aren't there any nice Israelite girls among the Danites that you could marry? No, I want her. And so they make the arrangement. And the story goes on.

But this is his wife. He goes off. This is the story of the wedding feast that lasts for a week. And he tells a riddle and says, you know, if you can't guess my riddle, you'll give me 30 outfits. And if you guess my riddle, I'll give you 30 outfits of clothing. And the Philistines are saying, yeah, we don't want to be in debt to this guy, but we can't figure out the riddle he's given. Kills a lion and he goes back and sees it later. And the carcass of the lion is this beehive,

a swarm of bees and the honey, and it's sweet. And that becomes the basis for this riddle that he tells at the feast, beginning in chapter 14, verses 10 and following. And they can't figure it out. So they press on his Philistine wife to get Samson to tell her the answer to the riddle so that she can tell them

so that he'll lose the wager instead of them losing the wager. And on the seventh day, it's announced that they figured it out. This is the end of verse 18. What is sweeter than honey and what is stronger than a lion? He's upset.

Spirit of the Lord, again, it's attributed to divine action. The Spirit of the Lord comes upon him and he goes down to Ashkelon, one of the Philistine, major Philistine cities, kills 30 people, takes their outfits and brings them back and said, you're paying the wager. Well, of course, they're upset. They're upset because 30 Philistines have died in the process. He leaves there and goes back to his home for a while.

His father-in-law gives his wife to a Philistine guy. He comes back later and finds out he's upset. This is all high drama here. And you're supposed to be thinking, what's with this guy? How did he get to be a judge and have the Spirit of the Lord come upon him? We're in chapter 15, and he catches 300 foxes and took, it says firebrands, it's torches, right? So it ties two foxes together, their tails together with a torch in the middle. So you got 150 pair of foxes running around with torches through all of the fields and they burn

the corn, as it says in verse five. I hope by now after Joseph in Egypt, everybody knows corn and King James means grain. It's not corn on the cob like we think of it. So wheat and barley were the two most common grains in the ancient Near Eastern world, in the biblical world. And so it burns down their stuff. And oh, by the way, it burns some of the olive trees in the vineyard. So now the Philistines are upset because of what Samson's done. He was upset because of how he was treated. This is round and round. So he goes to a place, and this is worth commenting just briefly, over in Judah. In verse 9, the Philistines went up and pitched in Judah and spread themselves in Lehi. The Hebrew word is lehi.

It means jawbone. It's the name of the place, and we find out why it's called that as we go along. But the men of Judah say to Samson, listen, we don't want the Philistines beating up on us because of you. So we're going to tie you up and turn you over to them. We won't hurt you, but we'll give you to them. And that's what he agrees to. Verse 14, he came to Lehi, the Philistines shouted against him. The spirit of the Lord came mightily upon him. He broke the flax bands with which he was bound. Verse 15, and he found a new jawbone of an axe. He found a lechi of an ass, a donkey, and put forth his hand and took it and

slew a thousand of the Philistines with it. And Samson said, with a jawbone of an axe, heaps upon heaps, probably heaps of bodies, right? With a jawbone of an ass, have I slain a thousand men? It's like, oh, well, all in a day's labor, right? A thousand guys have lost their lives here. And I want to pause here. I always do this with students. I was coming out of a family therapist's office one time, and I happened to see this on the wall. And again, it's not a funny context, but it's a clever use of this scripture. So this is what the sign said on the wall in this therapist's office. Samson slew 1,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an axe, Judges 15. Every day,

thousands of relationships are destroyed with the same weapon, with the jawbone of a donkey in a relationship, right? Okay. Keep your jaw closed. John, I'm glad I didn't use that as your adjective today. The chapter 15 ends with he's thirsty. He says to the Lord, don't let me die of thirst after I've been trying to defeat the Philistines. So God creates a spot in the valley there and water comes out and he names it the spring of calling out, right? The one who calls out for God's help. So this is about the only time where Samson actually, as it's depicted, we always have to say that, where he calls on God for help. The rest of the time, this is just Samson doing his own macho thing. And again, this picture is much different from some of the other judges, right?

He doesn't call other tribes for help. He doesn't call anybody for help. He's just doing his own thing. Not all that successfully in the long run. And then the rest of the 16 then is about Delilah. It never actually says that she marries him or that he marries her. It never actually says, is she a Philistine? But we assume she's a Philistine and he loves her. And this is the first time and the only time, it's chapter 16, verse 4, came to pass after all these escapades that he loved a woman in the valley of Sorok whose name was Delilah. And it's really the only time we hear about Samson loving

somebody other than himself. And she, the Philistine leaders say, we're going to do this scenario again, like with his wife at the first. Find out from him how he's so strong and what we can do to defeat him. And so three times, we'll give you a lot of money if you help us out. So three times she asks and he makes up something and says, Samson, the Philistines are on you. And he hops up and breaks the bands. She keeps pressing on him after the third time. Finally, we're in chapter 16, verses 15. How can you say I love you when your heart isn't with me?

You've mocked me. You've lied to me these three times. Verse 16, it came to pass when she pressed him daily with her words for who knows how long and urged him, his soul was vexed unto death. He said, what's the point of living? This is just more than I can take. So he tells her, verse 17, all his heart, explains the Nazarite vow, can't cut my hair. If I do, my strength is gone. She realizes that he has told her all her heart. So she rings up the Philistines as if she had a phone, right? And said, he's told me all his heart. I know this

time, this is the truth. And so they come and she helps and they cut his hair off that night. And he jumps up and he's got no strength. And the Philistines gouge out his eyes and take him down to Gaza, where he had ripped the gates out and taken them away. And he's put in the prison house, helping to push a grinding stone around to grind the grain. His hair starts to come back. And after a while, they're having a big party at the Temple of Dagon, a grain god. And, oh, hey, what happened to that guy named Samson? Let's bring him in and let's make fun of him.

Let's mock him. Let's see if he's as strong as he used to be. And so they tie him up to the two central pillars that are holding the upstairs up. And you know the story. This is chapter 16, verse 28. Samson calls out, O Lord God. Here we have him calling the Lord again. Remember, I pray, just this one more time, give me strength to avenge myself against the Philistines who've gouged out my eyes. He's tied up. He exerts his strength. Verse 30, and he pulls down the pillars. All the people fall down from upstairs and onto the people that are downstairs. And the dead which he slew at his death were more than those that he slew in his lifetime. So he kills, what, two or three thousand

people here at the end. And that's the end of the Samson story. So we can ask the same questions. What lessons could you possibly learn out of that? Doctrine and Covenants section three, verses three and four. Remember, remember that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men, people, right? For when a person may have many revelations, powers to do mighty works, yet if they boast in their own strength and set at naught the counsels of God and follow after the dictates of their own will and carnal desires, they must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon themselves. For me, that connects with Samson. Samson's a tragic figure. We're going to have lots of

tragic figures in the Bible, but here's one. Blessed from birth with strength and opportunity, promises, a calling, but at least, again, the way he's depicted in Judges, the carnal, the worldly, the I do my own thing, I don't care so much about other people, especially about women, even about Israelites. Definitely, I don't care about Philistines, right? Just kill a few here, kill a thousand there, whatever. Or it's a portrayal of a sad, tragic person, follows after his own will and carnal

desires must fall. And he fell literally under the load of the second floor of the temple. Yeah, I was going to say, marry well. To go back to chapter 14, when his parents said, maybe you could marry in the covenant. How about that? We've seen this, but many of the lessons in the book of Judges and elsewhere are negative examples. Hopefully, we're learning from negative examples that have been provided for us. Pete I think the manual talks about strength comes from your covenants. Samson lost both his physical strength and his spiritual

strength because he violated his covenants. Pete I like what you brought in, though, about section three, because that's the loss of the 116-page manuscript. And it was a mistake, and it was wrong. And the Lord taught a lesson there. Here, we're looking at this. All right, what can we be taught here? That's a great footnote. I'm going to put that at the end of this story. Otherwise, you're kind of like, okay, nice story. What do I do with that? It doesn't say, and thus we see, right? We're supposed to be able to extract the moral to the story, but it takes a little time to think about it. And different people, depending on what they bring to this story, are going to see different things, resonate with different things.

But there are some life lessons to be learned. Judges finishes with saying a couple of times, in those days, there was no king. Every man did that which was right in his own eyes. That just sounds like Samson. Do what's right in your own eyes. Samson, that's kind of his motto in life. I'll do what I think is right. Yes. Yes. Tragically, you see the outcome of that kind of approach to life where covenant community doesn't seem to be valued, or personal commitments to covenants does not seem to be valued. I mean, you could argue, yeah, did he want to be a Nazirite? His parents raised him saying, hey, God says you're going to be a Nazirite. Sometimes people grow up in Latter-day

Saint homes and say, yeah, this isn't for me. I'm going to choose a different way. And they may not be so wild and crazy as Samson turns out to be, But people, you know, choose different paths. And on the one hand, it's easy to knock Samson. On the other hand, you know, I'm going to try to have a little respect for a person who chooses to go another direction for whatever reason they choose. I'm glad that we believe in a spirit world, and I hope he has had plenty of time to reflect and repent and to come around according as we understand things. Fortunately, that's not the end of life. There's very little humility.

If you maybe put Samson next to Gideon, Gideon who needs reassurance, Samson seems to need zero reassurance. He just, yeah, he runs his own show. So there's an important lesson there. As we mentioned, that's the end of the judges' stories. Yeah, then you said there was an appendix, right? Chapter 7. Yeah, that's what it typically gets called. Chapter 17 and 18 narrate a story, and then 19, 20, 21 narrate another story.

And that's the end. But very much in this case, religious perversion, we would say. So you can read about all of that. And along the way, multiple times, as you've already noted, and including the very last verse of the book of Judges, 21 verse 25. In those days, there was no king in Israel. Everybody did what was right in their own eyes. There's no human king, and that's the setup for the monarchy that's coming in 1 Samuel. But there's also not a whole lot of

allegiance to the heavenly king, Jehovah, either. And so you've got these despicable accounts, I mean, just terrible accounts of people doing terrible things to other people. Or designed, I think, as we've said before, yeah, we need a human institution to help with our challenges. But also designed to show us that if we leave Yahweh, Jehovah, our heavenly king, look what becomes to us. And spiral. There are some scripture passages and teachings that say, you know, it's one thing if you just don't live well.

But if you make covenants to live well, and then you turn against the Lord and violate your covenants, one, your life is often worse, and two, your judgment is more severe because you're violating the promises, divine promises that you've made to a divine being. So bad things have happened. And again, this illustrates over and over that Deuteronomistic principle that's also in the Book of Mormon if you keep the commandments of the Lord you're obedient, you're faithful

you'll prosper in the land and God will help you and if you don't, he won't and I know that's really black and white and can be fudged all kinds of ways but there is an underlying principle there that really has something to teach us. And it shows up again and again in the scriptures.

I've heard it called the doctrine of retribution. It shows up in the Book of Mormon a lot. I was thinking as we've been looking at these chapters about the idea of the God of the Old Testament seeming harsh. And I'm going, well, the people seem pretty harsh, too. So he was dealing with them in the same measure of harshness they were dealing with each other, perhaps. It is a hard book. And again, as I said, most of the lessons we learn are from negative examples, some

positive and talking about divine justice or divine retribution or what have you. Could I read this quote? I found this when I was doing an article on Micah. It's just expressed nicely. It's by a fellow named Daniel Simonson writing a commentary on the book of Micah. Because there are prophecies in Micah about bad things happening in the future. And I just like the way he expressed this. I'm sure you probably have thought about this, but this is his statement. A God who is never angry would be a God who has no compassion and no empathy for those who suffer at the hands of others.

God's anger is the other side of God's love and concern. To be in relationship with a God who truly cares about people and what they do means running the risk that God may sometimes be angry. The good news is that the anger is never the last word. And when I read that, I really stopped and thought, I said, yeah, I mean, I get angry at other people for doing bad things to my kids or my grandkids or whatever. And he doesn't use the word covenant, but he says to be in relationship with a God who cares about people. We can easily say to be in a covenant relationship with God involving sacred promises. Understand that when I or other people break those sacred promises, there are going to

be consequences. It would be nice to say God never gets upset, he never gets angry, whatever. But the way at least scripture and prophets depict God, we have plenty of examples where this is the case that God's justice, right, is going to come into play or the principle of justice comes into play. And even in the Book of Mormon and Alma, right, we're taught that mercy can't rob justice. Now, Jesus provides a way to meet the demands of justice, but everyone does not take advantage of that opportunity. So again, a God who's never angry would be a God who doesn't have compassion or empathy for those who suffer at the hands of others. And the Old Testament has plenty of examples of stories of people who suffer at the hands of others.

Before we let you go, let me ask you a question. Here you are. You're a Bible scholar, one of the best I know, and a believing Latter-day Saint. How have those two worlds come together for you? I think our listeners are interested in, here's someone highly educated, well-studied. I think our listeners would be just a little bit interested in that story. I know you come from New England, convert to the church. I was 12 when my family joined the church. I studied Hebrew Bible, ancient and recent studies in school.

I learned lots of tools, theories, approaches, how to deal with this, how to think about that, that would be part of anybody's biblical studies program. Some people come out of that thinking, wow, I never heard of this before. I guess it's true. And I was believing the wrong thing. So I'm out of here. Some people come through and say, and hopefully this is me. I see some valuable tools here. I don't have to take the whole perspective. I had professors who were agnostic. I had professors who were atheists. I had professors who were believing Jews. My main professor, Jeff T. Gay, would put on his yarmulke every time we opened the scriptures and

read, because that was in his faith tradition, a sign of respect for the holy word of God, as he had it and accepted it. What's helpful? What's important to me? I mean, thinking about redactors, thinking about other kinds of things, right? I didn't grow up thinking about that. I learned about those kinds of things, perspectives that people didn't grow up thinking about that. I learned about those kinds of things, perspectives that people have and putting the text together. The text isn't perfect. It's got corruptions in it as it's been transmitted. There's a whole host of different things to think about in relation to studying any scripture text, even modern, almost 200-year-old scripture texts like the Doctrine and Covenants, right? There are questions we should be asking ourselves. I guess in my personal experience, my faith is what is the most important

thing. My wife and I have said this to each other, right? Our relationship with the Lord is the most important thing in our life. You're next, as my spouse, and then everything else proceeds out from there. The kids, the grandkids, occupation, ward callings, what have you. But first and foremost, it's the Lord and me in that covenant relationship that I've mentioned now, it feels like a hundred times in this broadcast. And everything grows from that. Listen, I know people who went to graduate school and lost their faith. For me, academics, the academic approach has a lot of value, but it's not an either or. Doctrine and Covenants is full of this, right? Take from the best books and study history and geography and

learn languages and all these things, right? Learn even by study and by faith, right? The Doctrine and Covenants is full of divine injunctions to see what's in the world and to have the Holy Spirit as your guide to choose what's good and helpful and productive, beneficial, and to separate between what's good and what's not and to choose the good and to reject the rest. I've tried to have that as my course in life and grateful for the blessings that have come to me because of that. You have certainly inspired me for many years, and I'm sure inspired many today with your depth of knowledge and your faithfulness. It's just both of them are incredibly impressive. Well, we loved it. We are so grateful that we got to spend time with

Dr. Dana Pike today. Wow. What a great day. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson. We love you and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson. And we hope all of you, please join us next week on another episode of Follow Him.