followHIM - Matthew 15-17; Mark 7-9 Part 2 • Dr. Kerry Muhlestein • Apr. 10 - Apr. 16

Episode Date: April 5, 2023

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein continues to explore how Jesus asks us to testify of Him and how He accelerates His disciples' preparation for His death and resurrection.00:00 Part II– Dr. Kerry Muhlestein00:08 The Passion Narrative begins00:51 Caesarea Philippi05:43 Stages of recognizing Jesus09:37 “Blessed are thou”13:14 Dr Muhelstein share a story about a friend who is colorblind16:47 Learning through revelation22:02 Caves near Caesarea Philippi26:44 Jesus gives keys30:44 Peter’s love of Jesus 34:57 Many are called, but few show up39:00 A Man for All Seasons42:15 Be not ashamed43:52 The Mount of Transfiguration50:29 Seeing things as they really are53:07 The Kirtland Temple58:01 Symmetry between the Mount of Transfiguration and the Kirtland Temple1:02:23 The Godhead bears witness of one another1:06:24 Jesus heals and helps our unbelief1:16:20 Elder Holland addresses faith and doubt1:17:36 Dr. Muhlestein shares his thoughts about God’s love1:21:10  End of Part II–Dr. Kerry MuhlesteinShow Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.coFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-piano

Welcome to Part 2 with Dr. Cary Muehlstein, Matthew 15-17 and Mark 7-9. All right, now the next verses get us into one of the more significant stories in the Gospels, I think. This is a really profound moment. We've got a couple of those. Two of the most profound things in the Gospels happen in today's reading. And, of course, in the readings we get to when we get to what we call the passion narrative or the Gethsemane and crucifixion narratives. But Hank, do you want to read for us a little bit? Let's just start in Matthew 16 and we can do verses. Let's just start with 13 through 14.

When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples saying, Whom do men say that I, son of man am? And they said, some say that thou art John the Baptist, some Elias and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets. Let's get our setting for this because it impacts a little bit of what's going on here. We've talked already about a couple of the different kingdoms. So you've got the Romans divided this up after Herod the Great dies, they divide up his kingdom and one of them is ruled by one of his crazy sons, and so then it gets taken away from him, and it's ruled by Romans themselves. And that's Judea, right? And at this point, Pilate is in Judea. Jerusalem, that's where it is. Yeah, Jerusalem is in Judea. It's that

southern part that has the Dead Sea and Jerusalem in that area. Then you've got two different parts on either side of the Jordan that are given to his son, Herod Antipas. And that's the Herod that you'll see Jesus interacting with the most, and John the Baptist, he's the one that kills John the Baptist, and so on. Then you've got that group of Decapolis cities that we just talked about, but Herod had another son, Herod Philip. He names all his sons after himself, right? He's quite a guy. But anyway, Herod Philip has this really northern part. That's the part that the Savior is going to now, Herod Philip's area that's on the east side of the Jordan River, north of the Sea of Galilee, that area, all right? Which he named after himself.

Yeah, the capital he names after himself. That's exactly right. So this capital he names after Caesar Tiberius, but Caesar and himself Philip. So Caesarea Philippi is his new capital that he's building named after Tiberius or Caesar and himself, because why not? He's got a little bit of his dad in him, so why not name the city after yourself? It's got a Jewish influence, but it's also a very Hellenized city and Romanized city. So it's got all sorts of temples in it. And the primary temple is the Temple to Pan. The modern name for this place, it would be Panias, but in Arabic, they don't do P's really. So it becomes Banias.

And that's what it's called today is Banias, named after Pan, but it's Caesarea Philippi. And they're in the coasts, it says. So they're not right in the city. They're in the borders. Coasts is the KJV word for borders. They're in the border. They're just right near the city, but not in the city. They're in the border's coast is the KJV word for borders. They're in the border. They're just right near the city, but not in the city. And that's where he chooses, and we'll see at least some reasons, I think, for this as we go along, but that's where he chooses to have this profound discussion with his disciples there. And he asks, who do they say that I am? And note that he uses the title for himself even in asking the question, the son of man.

Now, I don't know if you've discussed that title in any of your other episodes. Let's do it again, just in case. Yeah. This is drawing on imagery from Daniel, where Daniel sees a vision where the Ancient of Days, who we know from Joseph Smith as Adam, interacts with someone who is called the Son of Man. And the Son of Man is a messianic figure. We know it's going to be Christ. But for Jews who hear the phrase Son of Man, there was a time where this is used with Ezekiel to mean mortal

and so on to emphasize your mortality. And that still can happen. But at this point, when you hear Son of Man, the Jews at this day are going to think this Daniel prophecy and it's a messianic figure. He's already saying something about himself, even as he asks the question, Whom do men say that I, the Son of Man, am? It's interesting that some say John the Baptist because they were seen together.

So that's a little weird to me. But anyways, not everyone knows that. So they're like, oh, he was the coolest, most powerful prophet recently. He's come back as this guy. Others say Elijah. And you can get why they would expect, they know Elijah is going to come back at some point. And the Savior is doing miracles that are like Elijah. So let's maybe stop and talk about this because it's going to come to play in what Peter is saying.

And it's going to come to play in a number of future readings and a number of your future episodes. Elijah and Elisha are the greatest miracle working prophets in Israelite history. That's what they're known for. We don't have their sermons or anything like that. They preach through these miracles. So if you're going to judge a prophet as someone as to whether they're a prophet or not and whether they're a great prophet or not, then the standard is Elijah and Elisha. And Elias is the Greek version of Elijah. So when you read Elias, just think Elijah. And so that's the standard.

So the Savior is working miracles that are like Elijah and Elias. Again and again, raising people from the dead, which Elijah and Elisha did. Healing people, control over the elements, control over food. Elijah and Elisha did all of these things. It's inevitable that people are going to start to recognize him as a great prophet because he can match all of those miracles. In fact, I think one he does intentionally when Elisha raises a child from the dead on the foot of Mount Moriah, the Shunammite woman's child that's on the foot of Mount Moriah. Well, if you go around the corner of Mount Moriah is the city of Nain, and that's where the Savior raises a widow's son from the dead. And I think it's not coincidental that it's in the same place. I think he does these things as signs so that people will say, okay, I can't help but think of Elisha when this happens here. So he's being recognized as a great prophet. And there are stages in recognizing who Christ is.

And one of them, you can think of him as a man or even a good man. The next one is a prophet or even a great prophet. And that's where most of Israel or most of the Jews are for quite a bit of this story. But then it's a step up from being a great prophet to being the Messiah. That's something more. And then their concept of Messiah does not include necessarily, for very few would it have, and maybe hardly any, maybe none, I don't know, but the concept of Son of God.

So if you're going to recognize who Christ really is, these are the stages you have to go through. Good man, great man, prophet, great prophet, Messiah, son of God. Those are all different places that you'll find people in the New Testament, the gospel stories. Everyone you encounter is probably somewhere, well, some people think he's like a terrible person, but most of them think he's somewhere on that spectrum and they have to kind of figure out where they are on that. And he's continually doing things to help them come to that realization. And you're going to see when you get to John 11 and things like that, when he does miracles that

exceed, John 9 and John 11, he does miracles that exceed Elijah and Elisha. And that's when the Pharisees and Sadducees decide, especially the Sadducees decide they have to do something because he's getting really popular. Yeah. Yeah. And it's hard to escape the conclusion he's more than a great prophet. When he's exceeded, if you exceed Elijah and Elisha, you have gone to the next level. So all of these miracles we've been reading about are taking people to the point where they are equating him with Elijah or Jeremiah or John the Baptist. They are equating him with the greatest of prophets. You don't see Simon and the others saying his apostles saying yeah they're saying you're the messiah now that people will be getting to that point for sure but that's not the answer to the saying here they're equating him with three great prophets john the baptist elijah

and jeremiah three of the greatest prophets and then he asked him this pointed question that i believe one day and hopefully in some ways today but at some point it will be even more significant. We all have to answer this question. Do ye say that I am? I know what other people think. What do you think? Yeah, that's something that we have to answer for ourselves. And one day I think we're going to have to look at the Savior and answer that question again. And yay for Peter.

Everyone has foibles, but I love Peter. And note here, they call him Simon Peter. His name is probably Simeon, but this is Grekified, right? Simon and Peter, which is from Cephas, which is from Cephas. We'll talk about that, but the rock, right? So they're giving him both of those names right here. They're giving him the full description as he gets this rock name. And Simon Peter answered and said, thou art the Christ. We're leaving behind great prophet. You are the Messiah. And what's more than that, you are the son of the living God. Now we did have back in John chapter one, when Nathaniel is called, Nathaniel called him the son of God. And I don't know, there's a part of me that thinks maybe that's a later

edition or something. I don't know like that's a part of me that thinks maybe that's a later edition or something. I don't know, like that. It seems like this is when they're really coming to realize that. Maybe some of them realized it as early as John chapter 1, or maybe that's later edition. I don't know. But this is when we get Peter declaring on behalf of all the apostles, you are the son of the living God. And that is incredibly significant. Yeah, it's not something they were taught

because obviously Jesus says, you didn't get that from a teacher. That's exactly right. You got that from Revelation. I guess we can have John read verse 17 and 18. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which things in here. Let's tear this apart a little bit. So I love Blessed Art Thou. And he tells him what would be his most full and proper name in Aramaic

the way that they usually are called so he's going to give him that name before he gives him another name Simon bar means son it's been in Hebrew bar in Aramaic so for example when you hear bar mitzvah son of the commandment that's Aramaic son of probably Johan or something like that Jonah's a Grekified version of it so his father's name is probably Johan or something like that. Jonah's a Greco-fied version of it, so his father's name is probably Johan or something along those lines. And as you already said, you didn't get this through normal channels. You didn't get this through worldly channels. This goes back to this idea of where are you getting your information, from God or the world?

The most important information you will not and cannot get from the world. Instead, it was revealed unto thee by my Father, which is in heaven. That is the only way to learn the things that we really need to learn. I don't want to get into this too much in detail. I have a whole small chapter in a small book I wrote on the book of Abraham on this, but this idea that there are different ways of learning, what we call epistemology if we want to try and impress people and sound really smart, but ways of learning. We talk about observation and or authority, all these things, but in the end, we create processes. And one of the processes that we

rely on in our day is kind of a combination of logical reasoning and observation, and we call it the scientific process. We observe things, and then we try and take what we've observed and reason it out and come to a conclusion. And that's fantastic for teaching us a number of things. There are some things it cannot do. It's just not equipped to do it. The most important questions in life, what we might call the key questions, the primary questions, as Elder Corbridge termed it. Those primary questions cannot be answered by the scientific method. They can only be answered by the revelatory method.

I don't want to say that the scientific method isn't important or isn't valid or valuable. It certainly is. And I'm quite pleased to have a microwave and cars that work and all the things that we get through that method, right? It's valuable. But just like it would be stupid to discount that method, it's equally stupid to discount the revelatory method and the things that it is designed to reveal to us or to answer, the questions it's designed to answer that the scientific method is not designed to answer. And all of the most important questions the scientific method can't answer, but the revelatory method can. And that is questions about the restoration. And most importantly, this question, who is Jesus?

And we can study all we want. Nothing in the academic method can prove or disprove that Jesus is the Son of God. It's not equipped to do so. It's like using a shovel to cut down a tree it's the wrong tool you need to use an axe if you're going to cut down the tree or a saw and that the correct tool is the revelatory method and that absolutely answers this question that jesus christ is the son of god and in my mind we need to help our young adults and our youth really start

to understand this because they hear so much from the world again and this academic method that they are prone to trust that and discount the revelatory method. And we need to recognize that they're each designed to do two things and they are both valid and it is naive, really, to dismiss the revelatory method. The people who dismiss it are the people who have never experienced it. And again, that's just so silly to allow someone to dismiss something because they just don't know about it. When I was growing up, a really close friend of mine was colorblind, but he didn't realize that, and we didn't realize it for a while. And I can remember, this is when I was young, right? I can remember discussions where he kept saying he thought we

were trying to trick him when we talked about the color purple. He said, there's no such thing, right? He just thought it was a joke we were playing on him. There's no such thing. Naive for him to say there's no purple just because he can't see it. I could see purple. This would be like me saying there's no such thing as infrared just because I can't see it with my eyes. But that's exactly what we do when we say that the revelatory method is not a reliable

method for learning. That's just someone who hasn't experienced it dismissing it because of their own inexperience and naivete, where we need to teach everyone to take that method of learning very seriously and very valid, and as the only way to answer the most important questions. You talked about Elder Corbridge. I had brought this talk up just for this episode. It's called Stand Forever. It's a BYU devotional. We can link it in our show notes. Just go to followhim.co.

I have an extra credit in my classes. Yeah, we've talked about that because people will do things for extra credit that they won't do if it's required. I know. If I really want them to read it, I'll make it extra credit. It's a good idea. What's a primary question and what's a secondary question? He talks about the divine method. He talks about the scientific method, the analytical method, the academic method.

And then he talks about the divine method of learning. And one thing he says is pay whatever price you must pay, bear whatever burden you must bear and make whatever sacrifice you must make to get and keep in your life the spirit and the power of the Holy Ghost. Every good thing depends on getting and keeping the power of the Holy Ghost in your life. Everything depends on that. Powerful talk. Amen. Amen. If you know someone who is struggling with understanding a few things, I would say get that from that talk. Look at that section.

You can look at that section of my book about it or whatever, but make sure you understand the contrast between different methods of learning and the value of each and then help other people understand it. It's one of the most valuable things we can do for our youth today. So if you're a youth leader listening to this, teach them to value revelation as a source of learning. Make the talk extra credit. Yeah, that's exactly right. Get them to recognize the validity of hearing him, if we're going to use President Nelson's phraseology, right? What I love about this is, first of all, I like to ask my students, did Jesus care about popular opinion? Who do men say that I, the son of man, am? And we usually

come up with a conclusion, well, probably not, but maybe he wondered if his apostles have been affected by it. Okay, well, then what do you say? So then he goes to that next level, what do you think? It's like, what does everybody think? And then, well, what do you think? So then he goes to that next level. What do you think? It's like, what does everybody think? And then, well, what do you think? And gets those answers. But one of the things I wanted to ask you about, when he says flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, he's saying to Peter, isn't he? You didn't even get that from me.

Because Jesus at that point was flesh and blood. No one could take his life from him unless he allowed it. So it was different. But he's like, Peter, you got that from God. You got that from my father, which was a step up. My brother-in-law, Jeff, teaches seminary out in Harriman. He says, often I'll begin class by just saying, all right, what have you heard? You know, kind of the, what are they saying out there?

Well, I heard this, Brother Loveridge. I heard this. Okay, but what have you heard? You know, kind of the, what are they saying out there? Well, I heard this brother leverage. I heard this. Okay. But what do you think? And does exactly what Jesus did. Okay. What have you prayed about? What have you, what have you pondered? What have you wrestled with? And what has God told you after that? And I think it's a really nice way of, for all of us, what are we hearing out there? Okay. But what do you think? And what has the Lord revealed to you? And are you willing to break from popular opinion? Yeah. And it ties back into what we were talking about just a minute ago. I mean, I could almost hear President Elton asking us, all right, what's the world teaching? And are you going to go with that? Or are you going to go with what God is teaching you? What do you think? That is a powerful contrast. That's good, John. It's very, very important.

And I think one of the problems with that is things are so instant. We can ask Siri and Alexa and Google and get answers like that. And the answers from God come on his terms and sometimes they're not as quickly. And so that's a caution is that it might take a while and some wrestling.

I have my students speaking of wrestling. I have another extra credit. Go to BYU-Idaho's website and find Sherry Du's talk called Worth the Wrestle. And it's 27 minutes and 59 seconds. So in under 28 minutes, you can watch this talk. And that idea, again, it might not come quickly, but I want you to have your own answer and it'll be worth the wrestle. So what has God told you is kind of like the verse 17, flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee,

but my father. Well, what has father told you? Anyway, that was too long, but you get the idea. Excellent, John. Well, Hank, why don't you read for us verses 18 and 19? Okay. This is from Matthew 16. I say also unto thee that thou art Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven. Whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So many great things in there. Let's focus on verse 18 to begin with. I mean, this is when he really gives Peter, and maybe he's been called this a little bit before,

something I don't know. It's hard to know when the phrase is used earlier, Cephas or Peter is used earlier, if that's retrojecting or what. But it seems like this is when he's really giving him what will become the name he's known by and in Greek you've got Petra and Petros here so he says thou art Petros which is a masculine form and upon this rock which is and upon this rock that's Petra will I build my church and that's kind of a bedrock thing sometimes we make a big deal of that but we should probably be careful because I don't think he is actually speaking Greek to them. He's speaking Aramaic, and the word would be kepha. It's not a difference,

but still, the idea is that he is the bedrock, or that something about this, and we'll talk about that, but something is the bedrock upon which he will build his church. Of course, you get churches who say it is Peter, and he's the rock upon which it will be built. And others, and we largely do this, will say, no, it's the revelation that Peter received upon the rock of you having this made known unto you by the Father rather than flesh and blood. It's that kind of revelation that the church will be built on. And I can't say that I had this idea originally. I'm sure lots of people have had it. I first kind of thought it through in a discussion with our friend you've had on before, Eric Huntsman, but I would say it's a combination of the two. I would say that the church is built upon the rock

of apostolic testimony. And you think about it, all of us, anyone here that has a testimony of Christ, you gained that by listening or reading the teachings of an apostle about Christ. Whether that be, you know, in the Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, and Mark and Luke are maybe small A apostles, someone sent forth rather than big A apostles, but they're learning from apostles. Whether it be from reading the Book of Mormon, or it be hearing in general conference. And again, it can be big A's in like ordained to the apostolic office or small a apostle, one who's sent by God. But we've learned it. And for many of us, it would have been from our parents. What I know about Christ, I've gained from apostolic

testimony. And then the Holy Ghost came and confirmed that testimony to me, expanded upon it, clarified it in my mind, made it powerful, made it part of who I am. And so that revelation combined with testimony of Christ from others is what the church is built upon, and it has to be revelation, and it has to include an element of someone who is sent from God to us, apostolic authority. We absolutely believe in that. Wow. I really like that. I have always kind of thought, well, I think he means both, but you're putting them together. It's apostolic testimony. It is revelation, but it's also from an apostle. I've really liked that. There's another interesting little thing here as we move on.

So he says, the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, meaning what he's going to build, right? Although it does prevail against it for a time, what we call the apostasy, but it can't prevail permanently because God restores it and so on. I don't know 100% for sure, but I feel fairly confident that there's an interesting little play on the background going on here. So let's go back to where they are. They're in the borders around Caesarea Philippi. It's right on the foothills of Mount Hermon, which is the biggest mountain in that area by a long ways. And so the kind of upper edge of the city is up on the foothill, higher than everything else. So you can see it from anywhere around. And it's all these Roman temples, Tapan and others, that are built into the hillside, including a big cave that's

in that hillside. Now, in lots of places where you have Roman temples where there's a cave, there's always an element of Pluto or Hades. Roman name is Pluto, Greek name is Hades. And it's thought that this is an access to the underworld or hell, basically. So, it's the gates of hell is the cave. Yeah. It's quite likely that it was understood that the Roman idea of the gates of hell is sitting cave. Yeah, it's quite likely that it was understood that the Roman idea of the gates of hell is sitting over Jesus's shoulder within eyesight of the apostles as he says that the gates of hell will not prevail against this, right? And in a way, he may be saying this worldly influence that we're trying to avoid, but it's right there. That's not going to prevail against

the revelation that I'm telling you God will give you. And it goes back to that same contrast we just said. What does the world say? And what do you say? And how do you know it? You know it from God. And right now, I'll tell you, there are days where I feel like the world is prevailing. Not in my life, I hope, but just in general. I know so many people who have had stalwart testimonies and are wonderful people, and then they're overcome by the ideas of the world. And it just feels like sometimes I just feel like I'm losing ground with all the people that I know and love. I don't know.

This is like President Nelson said, there may be days where we want to don our pajamas and curl up in a ball until the Savior comes again, right? But we know how this story ends. It will not prevail. The world or the gates of hell will not prevail. Even though Christ and his apostles are a small group with this big, big, massive thing of worldly power behind them, this small group, because they have revelation and power from God, will be what prevails. And let's be on the side of that small group. It kind of reminds me of how Nephi describes it, where the world has dominion all over the world, and the saints of God are few in number, but they are armed with the power of God in great glory. Great glory, yeah.

You know, I'm glad you brought this up. I feel like when you're there, that mountainside is just this big rock. And what are you, five miles from Syria, maybe? Yeah, you're right on the border there. And you're like, where is all this water coming from? Because there's a lot of water. Is it a spring? I mean, there's all this water coming out. Yeah, it's one of the headwaters of the Jordan as it comes down through the mountain, Mount Hermon, and then just breaks out right there. Yeah. And my understanding is that one of the etymologies of Jordan is from Dan. It's from the area that was given to the tribe of Dan,

sort of the Jordan River is from Dan. Is that how you understand it, Kerry? It's a possibility. You also have Yared and going down and so on. So yeah, but who knows? That's one of the possibilities. Well, President Nelson wrote this article called Why This Holy Land, and he commented on Caesarea Philippi. He said, Caesarea Philippi is located at the base of Mount Hermon. It is the headwaters for the Jordan River, that which gives life to Israel. There is a mountain at the base of which is a mighty rock from which water seems to be flowing, literally the liquid lifeline of this country. Here Jesus trained future leaders of his church. Could it be that the Savior brought his disciples to this spot

to teach the lesson that this majestic mountain symbolized the rock of Christ from whom revelation would flow, to bring light and life to them just as that flowing water of the river Jordan nourishes Israel? I think that's powerful stuff. I've been any number of times, just marvel, and I'll have students or other people I take to the Holy Land, that just sit there and say, okay, now look, we're standing right here, and right there, that's rock, and right here, that's river. The river's literally coming out of the rock, and we go, and I've taken people on hikes. You just go a little hike from there, and there's huge waterfalls. Beautiful. And it's all coming right out of this. I think it's one of the best visual objects for the idea of living water and springing

out of living water and what we really need to live anywhere. It's just a fantastic place to teach that. And so I'm with you that I think it's not a coincidence, both that you have above where that living water springs out, the things of the world, but that you have above where that living water springs out, the things of the world, but then you have the living water coming here, and most likely, Christ and the apostles are somewhere by where that water's flowing, and he has all of these things that he uses as setting the scene for this significant thing, teaching about who he really is, the living water, as opposed to the world, and what they need to learn, and what they need to do. Christ takes advantage of everything in his teaching moments.

Now, we read verse 19, and that's also very significant. This is the promise, I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And we certainly understand that in some ways differently than anyone else. There's some things we share in this idea that Peter will be given the keys to be able to direct the kingdom. We understand priesthood keys in a different way than everyone else, and we'll get more into that as we get into chapter 17 of Matthew. But this is a powerful metaphor so that throughout time, when people are depicting Peter and they want to put a symbol in to make sure you know that it's Peter, what

they do is they give him a key. And so you'll see statues and paintings of different apostles, and you can tell which one is Peter because he has a key. Although I think he could have given a rock and it would work too. But anyway, keys look nicer. This is a promise of something that's to come. And he tells him when you get these keys, whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. So at least part of the keys he's going to get are these sealing keys, right? And so just keep that in mind, and we're going to return to it as we get to chapter 17. There's a follow-up to this story. It's really interesting. He charges his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. That's interesting because at some point that becomes their major job,

to tell everyone that he is Jesus the Christ. Not yet, not yet. Yeah, he's engineering the timing of all of this. Wait for it. Yeah, that's right. Wait for it. That's good. From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples. Really, you pronounce that word show, even though it doesn't look like it. From that time forth began Jesus to show unto his disciples how that he must go into Jerusalem and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes and be killed and be raised again the third day. This declaration, once they have declared firmly they know who he really is, he can start to take them to the next

step of what that means. Now we're going to see they really struggle with it, but it's not a coincidence that what we call the passion predictions, the prophecies about his suffering and death, they follow immediately upon this declaration. They're ready for the next step. He's taken them to one level. It's time to start to move them to the next level. And it's going to take a while to move them to that next level. It doesn't come easily. So it's taken a while to get to this point.

Now we're ready to go on to the next point. Just like any good teacher, he assesses where they are, and then we're ready for the next step. Yeah. And I think it's John who later on after the resurrection says, we never quite got there until he actually did it. This is John chapter 20, verse 9. For as yet they knew not the scripture that he must rise again from the dead. He's taken them there, but it's going to take them a while, like you said. And think again how he plays the long game. He's preparing them for something he knows they're not going to get until after it's happened, but they need to have

had this teaching now so they can get it after it's happened. It seems that even Peter took out his sword when they came to take Jesus and maybe even then was like, okay, here's our political Messiah that's going to deliver us from the Romans by force. And even up until then, no, I'm not that kind of Messiah. We've got bigger enemies like sin and death and I'm going to conquer those. That's perfect because we see Peter right here in verse 22. Then Peter took him. Now, I love Peter. I love Peter so much. And one of the things that I love about Peter is how much he loves Christ. He loves Christ. He's so passionate.

He wants to be with him no matter what. If that means I can't wait in the boat, I need to walk on the water to get to you. If later it means I can't wait till the boat gets to shore, I'm going to jump out and swim to be with you. If that means I'm going to pull out my sword to stop someone from taking you away from me. If that means I will deny knowing you so I can be near you during your trial, whatever it is, Peter's going to do whatever it takes to be with the Savior because he loves, just loves the Savior. And as a result, sometimes it makes it a little bit harder for him to understand. He's too influenced by what the world around him has taught, which is the

Messiah will do a certain thing. And so he's saying, you're not going to die. You're going to lead us to this other place in this other way, because that's what he's been taught. So he says, be it far from thee, Lord, this shall not be unto thee. No, you can't die. That's not how this is going to work because that's not how I understand it to work. And I can't fault Peter for going with the best of his understanding. He's being taught something that goes against what he has always been taught. And that's in some ways, the story of our discipleship. If we are going to understand the things of God, the things of God are of such a higher level in this world, it means in the end it will probably contradict almost everything

we've ever thought or known. By the time we're exalted, we'll probably have to have given up all the ways we're thinking right now. And that's tough. That means that there are going to be a number of times where as we progress to become more godly, we're going to have to think of things in a way that is different than how we've been taught or thought we were being taught or had come to understand them, even gospel things. Joseph Smith used to say that his greatest struggle was to try and get people to understand the things of God because they were so saturated in the things they'd already been taught. Yeah, he said, I can't teach the saints all I want to teach them because the moment I teach them something new, they fly to pieces. That's exactly right. Like glass. Yeah. Like glass, or he uses a metaphor. It's like trying to split a log using a cornbread as a wedge and a pumpkin as a dodger or like the hammer, right? It's just a great metaphor. Like,

okay, you're right. You're not going to split a log that way. That's what it's like trying to unteach people so that you can teach them. And that's what Peter's in the process of. So I don't know that we can fault Peter, but the Savior is again, fairly explicit here because he turns and says unto Peter, get thee behind me, Satan, thou art an offense unto me for thou savest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. So this is exactly what we're talking about. And he is really clear about it with Peter to the point where he calls him Satan. Wow. Which again means adversary. So it may mean he's just saying like, you're being my adversary here. Why do you want to be my adversary? I am telling you how things should be. Don't disagree with me. You have to start to think of things the way I'm

trying to get you to think of them rather than the way that the world has taught you to think of them. And I know you've talked about this elsewhere on the podcast, so I don't want to turn this like into an advertisement that you're the biggest sponsor of the movie or the series, The Chosen. But I will tell you one of my favorite lines from that so much so that I even bought the t-shirt that says it. It's when the Savior says, get used to different. That's what we have to do. If we're going to be godly instead of worldly, we have to get used to different. That's what we have to do. If we're going to be godly instead of worldly, we have to get used to different. We have to stop thinking the way we have been thinking and get used to different, to godly things. Yeah, be open to what he wants to do.

I've always thought that too, Kerry, that he says, get thou behind me, Satan. He's just saying, don't tempt me. This is hard enough for me to know what's going to happen. I need my friends around me to help me do this hard thing, not be against it. Yeah, I agree. And also for you to start to understand it, right? Quit being influenced. And I think that's exactly what he's saying. You could almost say that President Nelson's talk about finding peace and rest and not trying to go things the world's way rather than God's way is summed up by this, thou savest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. It's the same principle. And then he goes on to some even harder things.

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, if any man will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. And we have a Joseph Smith translation variance there where he explains more, take up his cross, is to deny himself all ungodliness and every worldly lust and keep my commandments. So it's basically what we've been talking about. Let God prevail instead of the world. You have to give up the things of the world. And it's going to be tough. Let's just be clear, it's going to be tough. As President Nelson said in that same talk I was just referencing, don't expect it's going to be easy. It's not going to be easy. It's just easier than all the alternatives.

The worldly alternative is not easier than this. It seems like it at the beginning, but by the end, it's not. I always find myself thinking of Section 121. Many are called, but few are chosen. Many are called, but few show up. Why do they not show up? Because their hearts are set so much on the things of this world and aspire to the honors of men. They don't learn one lesson, just a single lesson, that the rights of the priesthood are inseparably connected with the powers of heaven.

You have to shed off all that worldliness in order to reach the Savior. Even our favorite ones, though, Hank? Yeah, even the Savior. Even our favorite ones though, Hank? Yeah, even your favorites. Even your favorite sins. Darn it. President Nelson say that too. Yeah, in that same talk. Now, what he teaches in Matthew chapter 16, verse 25, we think we get an even little bit

of an expanded version of that in the Mark account. So we're going to jump back to Mark. I told you we'd jump back and forth a bit today. That's why I've got both my Bibles here. So we'll go to Mark chapter 8. Verse 33 in Mark chapter 8 was where he takes Cedar to ask and says, you savor not the things of God, but the things of men. Then verse 34 of Mark chapter 8. And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. So we got that already. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it, but whosoever shall lose

his life for my sake and the gospels, the same shall save it. For what shall a prophet a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul? That is one of the more profound lessons we can learn. As long as you are seeking after yourself, and we live in an incredibly individualistic society, so many of the messages, even if they're about something else, they have this subtle little message that this is about you, and you doing what you want for you,

and don't let other people tell you to think differently, or behave differently, or dress differently, or whatever else. This is about you doing you. I want to get rid of the saying you do you, and I want to change it to the saying you do God's you. Look at what God can see in you and become what God wants you to be instead of being the limited you that you are right now. Why settle for that limited you? But so often in this incredibly individualistic society, it's about seeking things for yourself. And Christ is telling us, no, this is about doing things for God and others. That's when you'll find yourself, but you can't find it if you're focusing on finding yourself. A journey to find yourself is bound to fail. You'll find yourself

when you've forgotten yourself. That's counterintuitive, but this is one of those things we have to unlearn. That's the godly way of thinking, not the worldly way of thinking. I like that Jesus shows us the way, and he says, I am the way. He didn't say, find your own way or find your truth or find your north. He said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. And like you said, he never said you do you. He said you do me. What manner may not need to be? You're trying to be like me. You're not trying to be like you. That's exactly right. Look at the trouble you've gotten into trying to be you. Yeah. Yeah. And why do you want to settle for something that limited anyway, honestly? But

I'm not someone who doesn't like himself. I like myself, but why do I want to be satisfied being this when I can be more? Yeah. And I think that President Nelson quoted one of my favorite Ezra Taft Benson lines about men and women who turn their lives over to God will discover he can make a lot more out of their lives than they can. So you're not losing or giving up or sacrificing anything by giving your life to God, because he'll make more out of your life than you can. Yeah. I mean, it's a little bit like saying, I guess you sacrifice the caterpillar when you become the butterfly, but why do you want to not become the butterfly? But what a good trade. Similar to what Jesus said in Matthew 10,

the apostolic discourse, he says, he that findeth his life shall lose it, and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. I love this, Kerry. This is totally opposite than what you think, but you've got to let go of your individual lifestyle, invest fully in me, and you'll find what you're looking for. Yeah. And that's why I love both what you're saying. I think it ties in really well with what John said where he says, I am the way. When you are forgetting about yourself, you have to first lose yourself in serving God, and that will also turn you into serving others. But you have to come to Christ.

That's where you have to go. Forget about yourself. Make your entire life about serving God. Now, that's going to include you have to go to work and put food on the table and all that other stuff. But keep in mind that you're doing that because you're serving Christ. And I have to say this, verse 36, For what shall it profit a man if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul? It reminds me of probably my favorite line from my favorite play, which is A Man for All Seasons, which I know President Monson also liked.

It's just such a fantastic play, and you can see a couple versions of it. I'm just going to tell you that the Charlton Heston version is most faithful to the actual play. Charlton Heston directs and stars in it. And you get this great line at the end where Richard Rich has perjured himself in order to become the governor of Wales, basically. And you get this great line from Thomas More where he says, It profiteth a man nothing if he gain the whole world and lose his own soul. But for Wales?

You gave up your soul for Wales? Really? Is that worth it? And I can't tell you how many times that line has come back to haunt me as I've been about to do something that would get me this, like, even playing a game and I can find a way. Well, they wouldn't notice if I did this, right? And I'll win this game. And I'm like, but for Wales? Like winning the game is worth not being honest?

How stupid is that, right? The peace of your soul. Yeah, yeah. So that line comes to me all the time, but for Wales? But it's taken directly from verse 36 there. And I think verse 38 is also worth thinking about. And I just would ask everyone to think about this verse in the way you interact with people not of our faith when it comes to our beliefs about tough issues, social issues, or whatever else, including our academic colleagues

and anyone else. Just think about this verse. Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him also shall the Son of Man be ashamed when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. We have to admit, sometimes it is embarrassing, and it's difficult, and you know you're going to be mocked when you stand up for the things of God. That's just absolutely going to happen. And I know in the academic world, it especially is going to happen because there's such an anti-religious bent in academia in general. But this is a verse I think of when I find myself kind of wanting to hedge a little bit explaining our beliefs or hedge a little bit standing up for them. And I think, you know

what? I really don't want to be ashamed of Christ because I really don't want him to be ashamed of me. I'd really like him to be my full force advocate. That's what I want. Not, well, sorry, you were ashamed of me. And so this is how it's working out. It's pretty easy in the chapel to take upon you the name of Christ. But then when we take the sacrament, pretty easy to be a member of the church in the chapel. But then we go out for the next six days into the world and have to remember, I know I'm

trying to represent, and I don't want to be ashamed. Thanks for reading it that way. Yeah, there are times where I kind of do want to soften the language when someone asks me, you know, I've been in lunches at academic conferences and they ask me, so why does your church teach this about marriage? Or why does your church teach this about word of wisdom or whatever? That comes up a lot because they're all drinking or whatever. And there are times where I kind of want to soften it a little bit.

It's hard not to in the face of where, you know, everyone there is going to say, what's wrong with you? This verse helps me a little bit. I'm not saying I succeed every time, but it helps. I've always thought if I was sitting next to Paul, he'd be like, I'll tell him. Yeah. Right. Romans one. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ. You might be ashamed. I'm not ashamed. I'll say it how it is. That's certainly true of Paul. He's not going to miss words either, is he? Maybe sometimes he should, but anyway. It reminds me of Elder Clayton Christensen

that wrote that book about everyday missionaries. And such a good point that, how was your weekend? Why not say, oh, church was awesome this week. Instead of what you did on Saturday, why not say, I heard the best talk on Sunday. A very inspiring talk in my church. Or we had the best lesson. And it's just another way not to be ashamed, but to say, I love this. It's the power of God and the salvation. It's the best. I love my church. I love hanging out with these people. And I struggle, but it's given me a path and hope and a reason for everything.

That's good stuff. Well, all right, let's hit at least a few more. There are at least two more stories that I want to touch on that I think are really, really important. There are several more we could touch on. We may not have time for all of them. But chapter 17 in Matthew, we'll go back to Matthew. So let's continue on this story. After Caesarea Philippi, we get, Now, there are a lot of people who debate, where is this mountain?

And the two leading candidates are Mount Hermon. And I know people who are so sure it's Mount Hermon, they feel like it's blasphemy to say it's anywhere else. The traditional site is Mount Tabor. I think that's a really good candidate as well. I lean towards that. I'm 51% sure it's that and 49% sure it's Mount Hermon, but I don't really know. Part of the reason I lean towards that a little bit is it's actually about a six-day journey from Caesarea Philippi to Mount Hermon. That's part of it. But I don't want to take that too far because I think that it's likely that Matthew's doing something else here as well. Remember, Matthew loves to bring in things for a Jewish audience. And there's this great story in Exodus 24 where God is calling Moses and several of the leaders of Israel up to meet him in a high mountain. And from when he calls them, it's six days until they get to be in his presence.

And you get similar things happening then. You're going to have light and Moses' face is eventually going to shine. And we're going to talk about that here. There are clouds and so on. There's a cloud here. So I think that there's an intentional parallel being made and Moses is going to be here as well, right? And the glory of God. So I think there's an intentional parallel being made between the experience at Mount Sinai and the Mount of Transfiguration. So does that

mean it wasn't literally six days later? No, it's probably six days later. A lot of times God has things happen literally in a way that symbolically teaches us and reminds us of things. So maybe he had them go to Mount Tabor, so it would be six days later, or maybe they just hung out in Caesarea Philippi for six days. That part seems odd to me. But anyway, however it works. And I will also tell a story, just an experience I had at Mount Tabor that made this a little

bit more real because it talks about them being kind of overshadowed and they're not seen by other people and even a cloud that's there. You've probably been to Mount Tabor where they've built a church to commemorate this, and it's got three parts to it, one for Jesus, one for Moses, one for Elijah. And as you kind of come up, there's all this garden area, then there's a gateway. And at that gateway, you can see the church. And it's like maybe about 70 yards away. So that you can picture yourself like if you're standing at the furthest part of your church parking lot. And there's the church building.

You can see it pretty easily. You can always see it. I was there one time when literally as I was standing there looking at that church, a cloud descended. It was just the weather pattern. And a cloud descended. And within about five minutes, I could not see that church. It's a huge church. You can see it really easily from there, but I couldn't see that church.

And it made me think of, and this could happen on Mount Hermon just as well as on Mount Tabor, right? But it really made me think about how you could be at a place where maybe there's a Roman garrison over here. There are other people over there. This cloud descends. You are really, really by yourself. The Savior can do when that cloud descends, he can really, really by yourself. The Savior can do, when that cloud

descends, he can do whatever he wants with those apostles. They are secluded and veiled from the world, as it were, as the veil comes off for them. To me, it's a cool image to think about what I think something similar to that, whichever mountain they were on, and maybe it's not either of those, I don't know, but whichever mountain they're on, I think they have that kind of an experience. I like to try and picture a little bit what it would be like as we read it and make it kind of real that way. That's my thing, right? So Tabor is where we've all gone.

It's quite a windy road, right? And you have to drive up and take a shuttle and it's really windy. And there's a hundred switchbacks. Yeah. The dizzy drive. Yeah. Okay. That's Tabor.

Yeah. They're in the Jezreel Valley. So it would be apart because it's like the only mountain is this valley around it, and it's just sitting by itself there, and it's high for that area. Mount Hermon is high, and it's like the mountain in that area. So it's high and set apart. Either one of them fits the description. The six days thing, do you know the Sinai reference for that? Yeah, Exodus chapter 24 describes that experience.

That's where they're going to renew the covenant and have blood sprinkled on them, and several of them see God there, Jehovah. That could be a parallel. Okay, I love that. Yeah, I think it is a powerful parallel to me. It's this covenant-making priesthood ordinance experience at Sinai. Verse 1, Jesus takes them up there, verse 2, and was transfigured before them, and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. So, white as the light. I think the word transfigured here is interesting because I find this kind of fun. I remember we did a podcast just a little over a year ago that was the first one for the Old Testament year where we talked about Moses being transfigured. And that's one of the places we can learn a lot about transfiguration. I'm not sure that the way we usually use that word. So transfigured just means

your figure has changed. Okay. So it certainly works for here. But the way we usually think of the word, the technical term for Latter-day Saints is that your nature is changed so that you can be in the presence of deity. So I would guess if that understanding of transfigured, the people being transfigured here are Peter, James, and John. But Christ is certainly transfigured if we're just going to go with the literal, like your figure is changed, because it seems like this is where the veil comes off. I'm not the person who can doctrinally declare that this is the case, but it seems to me that this is telling us that all the time he's been with his apostles and disciples and everything he's been doing on earth, his glory, his true nature is veiled. No one has seen the real Jesus. They're never seen who he really is. And this is his moment for his closest apostles to see him for who he really is.

And that's an important thing, right? To know as we are known is part of what it's like to be in the celestial kingdom. And we've been talking as a church quite a bit, led by President Elson, and I've been writing about it in my books and so on, this idea that covenant is because God wants a close relationship with us. And part of that close relationship is about we have to become something that is capable of us really knowing each other. I think this is a profound moment for the Savior and for his apostles, for them for a moment to know what the Savior is really like. To have his glory unveiled and his face shines, just like Moses is will shine

so much he has to veil his face before the Israelites. His face shines and his raiment is like light. They see his glory for a moment. After this is going to be veiled, they're going to go down. It's going to be back to things as normal. But for a moment, this intimacy of really sharing who he is with each other has to be profound on a number of levels, I would guess. That's great, Kerry. It's right out of the Bible dictionary. Peter, James, and John saw the Lord in a glorified and transfigured state. And according to section 63 of the Doctrine and Covenants, they also saw a vision of the earth as it will appear in its future glorified condition.

So they're looking around seeing everything in a different way. Yeah, they get to see how things really are and how they really will be. Yeah, that's the definition of truth. There are a number of stages in what happens on the Mount of Transfiguration. And the first one seems to be finally seeing who this being, who they have been following and worshiping and have given their lives to, finally seeing what they had understood in some ways, finally seeing really what he's like. But the next step is the bestowal of some keys. So this is where that promise that we saw in Matthew 16, verse 19, that they would give him keys, this is where it's going to happen.

We've got verse 3, This is a really crucial thing. I'm assuming that the Savior gives them some priesthood keys. I don't know, but I would assume that the Savior gives them some priesthood keys. But we know Moses and Elijah give them priesthood keys. And this, in fact, would be the reason that Moses and Elijah were translated. So they could appear here. They don't need to be translated. And we're going to talk in just a second and even read where they appear to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland Temple. They don't need to be translated for that because by then the resurrection has happened and they can appear as

resurrected beings. But this is pre-resurrection. So if they are going to appear to Peter, James, and John and give them keys by physically laying their hands on them, that's why they had to be translated so that they could have physical bodies to lay on these other physical bodies and give these keys. That's the Lord really planning in advance. Yeah. He plays a long game. Yeah. Don't let them die. We're going to need those bodies here. Yeah, that's exactly right. And they're separated by quite a bit of time, Moses and Elijah, but they become traveling buddies. All right.

Now that we're translated, let's hang out together. We'll travel around and go visit people together. Where do you go during the interim? How long are you waiting as a translated being? Is there a waiting room? Wow. Yeah, well, probably Moses is saying, oh, you think that's cool, Elijah? Let me show you. I can part this water. And Elijah, oh, you think that's cool? Wait till you see my

chariot of fire. This is, you know, they have a good time together. But I think we can understand what happens on the Mount of Transfiguration better if we go to read section 110 and read what happens in the Kirtland Temple, because I think that's probably a more full account of something similar that would have happened in the Mount of Transfiguration. And typically when people do this, they want to just jump to the part where you see Moses and Elijah. But remember, the first thing on the Mount of Transfiguration was seeing Christ in his glory. So I'd say, let's look at that. We got in section 110. So again, to set the stage, this is in the Kirtland Temple after it's been dedicated and after the dedicatory prayer that is section 109.

This is an experience that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery have when they pull some of these curtains apart to separate them from others. And they're where these pulpits of the Melchizedek priesthood are. Okay, section 110, verse 2. Even 1 through 3, why don't we do 1 through 3? Okay, yeah. The veil was taken from our minds and the eyes of our understanding were opened. We saw the Lord standing upon the breastwork of the pulpit before us and under his feet was a paved work of pure gold in color like amber.

His eyes were as a flame of fire. The hair of his head was white like the pure snow. His countenance shone above the brightness of the sun, and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying, This seems to be really similar to what Peter, James, and John saw in the Mount of Transfiguration with Christ, right? They see him in his full glory. That's the first thing. And I wish we had more time. We could read all the wonderful things he says about their sins being forgiven and he's accepting the house and so on and so on but let's jump maybe hank can you read for us verses 11 through 13 still in section 110 doctrine covenants 110 11 through 13 after this vision closed the heavens

were again opened unto us and moses appeared before us and committed unto us the keys of the gathering of israel from the four parts of the earth and the leading of the ten tribes from the land of the north. After this, Elias appeared and committed the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham, saying that in us and our seed, all generations after us should be blessed. closed, another great and glorious vision burst upon us for Elijah, the prophet who was taken to heaven without tasting death, stood before us and said, and he quotes Malachi. Good. Yeah. And all those things, maybe jump down to verse 16 and read that as well. Therefore, the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands. And by this, you may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors. Now, that's interesting.

We get this Elias that's mentioned in verse 12 there. And we know that, again, that's the Greek version of the name Elijah. We know that becomes a title for someone who's a forerunner. So is this one John the Baptist that works for the gospel of dispensation of Abraham? Or is this someone else? It's some kind of a forerunner. That Greek name of Elijah becomes the title for a forerunner because of the prophecy in Malachi that Christ will send Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. So we know John the Baptist is an Elias, so he's a forerunner.

There are a number of people that fulfill this forerunner role. And I don't know exactly who the Elias is in verse 12, and there's some indication that there may have been someone else who filled a kind of an Elias role out of transfiguration. There's some suggestion that maybe John the Baptist is there. So I don't know what his role would have been and he would not be resurrected yet. So I don't know. He's not there to give keys. Yeah. The key thing we do know is that Moses has the keys for the gathering of Israel and Elijah has these sealing keys that were mentioned in verse 19 of chapter 16 about being bound in heaven and loosed in heaven and so on. Those sealing keys, which apparently are also associated with, as we learned just like they will be upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery,

so that the work of gathering and sealing, and the sealing is really about gathering in the hereafter, so the work of gathering in this life and the next can really take place with the authority of God. All the keys that they need to move the kingdom forward are bestowed upon them, I would presume, by Christ and Moses and Elijah and maybe by some others there on the Mount of Transfiguration. And again, I just love that we have that same parallel happening at the Kirtland Temple. And by the way, just as kind of your gee whiz, because the tradition grows up that Elijah would return on a Passover and the day he appeared in the Kirtland Temple ended up to be Passover that year. I think it's a fantastic fulfillment of that prophecy. Was it April 3rd, 1836? I believe so, yeah.

There's a JST footnote in the Mark 9 account of the Mount of Transfiguration where it says, there appeared unto them Elias with Moses. And the footnote says, or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses. So that's where we get that idea. That's exactly right. And it puzzles me because I really don't know what role John the Baptist would play, but I'm not the one who can say, John, you can't come. So, all right, if he wants to come, fine, he can come.

Yeah, there's a chart in the Religion 211 manual. It has everyone on the Mount of transfiguration and the reference and the restoration of the gospel and this is what you've been talking about carrie but i love this symmetry there that the very same characters there the very same ones who came into the kirtland temple and all of those same characters there's a symmetry to that which well of course they characters. There's a symmetry to that, which, well, of course they did. And there's a beautiful painting right inside the Kirtland Visitor Center. The last time I was there, they moved it, but it was really cool. It showed Joseph and Oliver sitting there in the Kirtland Temple and these figures kind of coming down from above,

bestowing keys. You see it and you think, wow, that might've been what that looked like. That's really cool. And it's incredibly significant. Kerry, I love that you're kind of saying, I don't know exactly what happened here. This is from Elder McConkie. He said, our synoptic authors, that's Matthew, Mark, and Luke, make brief mention of, in reality, it is scarcely more than an allusion to what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration when they and Jesus spent a sacred night enwrapped in these visions of eternity. He says later, in the providence of the Lord, the saints know some things that the world

does not know about the spiritual outpouring of divine grace that fell on the Mount of Transfiguration, but even latter-day revelation does not set forth the full account. And until men and women attain a higher state of spiritual understanding than they now enjoy, they will continue to see through a glass darkly and know only in part the visionary experiences of the presiding officers of the Meridian Church. That which is known, however, singles out this night as one of the most important and glorious in the lives who saw within the veil and who heard the voices of the heavenly participants. When Peter is much later in life, the Savior has been crucified and resurrected

and he has a chance to reflect back on his experiences with Jesus. And he could think of anything from walking on water to feeding the 5,000. But when he mentions 2 Peter 1, this is verse 16. This is Peter speaking much later in life. He said, we have not followed cunning devised fables. When we made known to say like, this isn't fiction. We made known to you the power and the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We were eyewitnesses of his majesty. And then he's saying, we saw him raise Lazarus from the dead. We saw him walk on water. We saw him resurrected.

Right. He says, for he received from God, the father honor and glory. When there came a voice to him from the excellent glory, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. This voice, which came from heaven, we heard when we were with him on the holy mount. So again, I think Elder McConkie is right here. Sorry. I'm sure everyone assumes that Elder McConkie is right, but there seems to be some kind of shadow over what truly happened on this mountain. Absolutely. And with what you were talking about with Peter there,

that is referring to the next part, the next stage of what we could read here, which is verse five. So we talked in verse four about Moses and Elijah. Well, verse three and four, but verse five, while he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. So it's while Peter was saying we should build tabernacles for these guys. A bright cloud overshadowed them. So it's while Peter was saying we should build tabernacles for these guys. A bright cloud overshadowed them and behold, a voice out of the

cloud, which said, this is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased. Hear ye him. And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face and were sore afraid. And Jesus came and touched them and said, arise and be not afraid. And when came and touched them and said, Arise and be not afraid. And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man save Jesus only. I think we also can't underestimate the importance of that witness from God. And you see the importance in the way, as you said, it's what Peter reflects on later. Some of the apostles had been disciples of John and may have heard God bear witness when Christ was baptized. But not all of them.

And it seems like Peter, James, and John actually come just a little bit later. Peter's brother, Andrew was probably there, but this is important. And when we talk about the doctrine of Christ, as it's outlined, say in 2 Nephi 31 and 32 or 3 Nephi 11 or 3 Nephi 27, we usually talk about faith, repentance, baptism, gift to the Holy Ghost, and during the end. But if you look at the whole thing, the way it's outlined there, when Nephi and others say, this is my doctrine, and at the end they said, that's my doctrine, you know, everything in between is my doctrine. The first thing in all of them is that each member of the Godhead bears witness of the other members of the Godhead, so that we're all entitled to divine witnesses of each member of the Godhead.

Christ and the Holy Ghost bear witness of the Godheads. Christ and the Holy Ghost bear witness of the Father, the Father and the Holy Ghost bear witness of the Son, and the Father and the Son bear witness of the Holy Ghost. This is an important element in that. Surely they're having the Holy Ghost bear witness of Christ, but now these three specifically hear the Father bear witness of Christ so that they have had two divine witnesses of who Christ is, and that he is doing the Father's will, and that they should listen to him. And that's really powerful. And now, as we go back to what we were talking about earlier, because I am reading this apostolic account of that, and have had the Holy Ghost bear witness to me, then I have testimony

of this too, and have received that divine witness from the father because the holy ghost has confirmed that the father really said that and so we can all have that experience as that rock of revelation that rock of apostolic testimony can make an effect in all of our lives and we can know with surety that jesus is god's son i love looking at the footnote there in Matthew 17, verse 5, and looking at all these other places where we have heard the voice of the Father. So footnote 5c, Matthew 3, 17, as you mentioned, the baptism of Jesus, 3 Nephi 11, 7, his appearance to the righteous in the new world, Joseph Smith history 117. It's not a long list of the times where we've heard the voice of the Father, but because, as you said, he's our mediator.

Jesus is our advocate and mediator, but the Father testifies of him in this place. That's profound stuff. And right after that, you get him kind of talking about John the Baptist being an Elijah or an Eliza, a forerunner as well. So as long as we're talking about this experience, comparing it to the Kirtland experience, and we're talking about covenants and priesthood keys and ordinances and so on, it's pretty clear that there's a temple element to this. And that was also talked about by Joseph Fielding Smith in his book, Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 2, page 165, he said, I'm convinced in my own mind that when the Savior took the three disciples up on the mount,

I'm just going to stop and say here, when you get someone saying, I'm convinced in my own mind, I think that's their way of saying, I'm not pronouncing this as official doctrine. This is what I, as a very informed believer, believes. All right. So that's how I take it anyway. That when the Savior took the three disciples up on the mount, which is spoken of as the Mount of Transfiguration, he there gave unto them the ordinances that pertain to the house of the Lord and that they were endowed. That was the only place they could go. That place became holy and sacred for the rites of salvation that were performed on that occasion. At least Joseph Fielding Smith, who's a fairly decent source, believed that some form of endowment and ordinances took place. I have no doubt they were endowed with power on high. I have no doubt

that there were ordinances that were part of that. It just makes sense that this was a sacred temple experience. And it's up on a mountain and mountains are nature's temples? I think all the original temples are mountains. And then later on we built buildings. Well, so when they come down from there, and that's just such a profound experience, but there's at least one more story I'd like to share. It's meaningful for me in a number of ways. When they come down, there's kind of a hubbub going on. And we want to look a little bit in the Matthew account, and then we want to look in the Mark account as well. So if we continue with that Matthew account, after he explains to them about John, we get verse 14. And when they were come to the multitude,

there came to him a certain man kneeling down to him and saying, now I'm going to stop. I want to go to the Mark account. I think it has just a little bit more there, but I wanted you to see the continuity there in the Matthew account. The Mark account, I think, is just so beautiful. So we're at Mark 9, 14. And when he came to his disciples, he saw a great multitude about them and the scribes questioning with them. And straightway, all the people, when they beheld him, were greatly amazed and running to him, saluted him. And he asked the scribes, what question you with them? And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit. And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him, and he foameth and gnasheth with his teeth and pineth away.

And I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out, and they could not. He answereth unto them and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? How long shall I suffer you? Bring him unto me. But he will later say, well, this kind only comes out by fasting and prayer. I'm grateful for that as well, to know that some trials are not going to be ended immediately, and it's not going to be a simple thing. It may be years of fasting and praying.

I know there are some things that I've fasted for so many times. And as we talked about earlier, we see miracles along the way, but fasting and prayer is a key element in this. I want to point out one other thing. We're going to just jump forward just a little bit in this story, and then we'll read the verse again. But later, when the same father is speaking to the Savior, verse 22, he says, And oft times it hath cast him into the fire and into the waters to destroy him. But if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us and help us. Elder Holland once spoke about this, and he said, note the us in here.

Because when a child suffers, the family suffers. The whole family suffers. And sometimes that's in a real way. Like I have a nephew who's very disabled and it literally, he's now what, 15? Or maybe he's 14, about to turn 15. But it literally has taken over the entire life for that entire family. Right? And we talked about some of the struggles that my family has had earlier.

It's taken over everything in my wife's and my life, besides my child's life, for that whole time, right? It becomes your whole life. You all suffer both because of how much it takes over what you can do, but because of the way your heart is poured out for your child. This man doesn't want to see his son cast himself into a fire. Who wants to see that, right? Or the other things he does to hurt himself. It just impacts everyone. And I think that there are probably, again, a lot of listeners who are experiencing this and can identify with what Elder Holland was talking about when he highlights the us of this experience and also the interaction of the faith of the father with what will go on with that son elder holland says i can hardly read these words without weeping

the plural pronoun us is obviously used intentionally the man is saying in effect our whole family is pleading our struggle struggle never ceases. We are exhausted. Our son falls into the water. He falls into the fire. He is continually in danger, and we are continually afraid. We don't know where else to turn. Can you help us? Yeah.

Man. You can feel it. Man, Elder Holland paints that so well, doesn't he? Mm-hmm. And I can see my nephew and his family. I can see ourselves. I can see ourselves. I can see others. I can see that it's like, please, please help us. We're pleading with you. Sometimes it's going to take a bit, but I believe in our own family situation, I can't tell you how many times

I've had the sweet assurance. This is going to work out okay. And that's just enough to get you through the next month of it's not yet okay. It's more okay maybe than it was, but it's not okay yet. So let's get to verse 20 is where he's foaming on the ground. And then we just read verse 21. He says it's been on him since he's a child. And we read verse 22. So let's go to verse 23 and 24, which I think is in many ways where the heart of the matter is. Jesus said unto him, if thou canst believe, all things are possible

to him that believeth. That is so crucial, right? But then look, I love verse 24. It's one of my favorite verses anywhere. And straightway the father of the child cried out and said with tears, Lord, I believe, help thou mine unbelief. That's something really profound. And I know I've seen depictions of this where he says, I believe, and then they have the actor, the guy who's acting as a savior, look at him like, do you really believe? And he says, help thou mine unbelief. I guess that's one way of interpreting it. And it's typical Mark language to say straightway, right? But the way he says it, it sounds to me like he immediately says this whole thing. I think that this is the father saying, I believe, but I need your help to believe more. There are a couple of things that

we should touch on with this. Elder Holland used this example. He says, when you're struggling, either with doubts or with having enough faith or with receiving blessings, lead with your belief. No, the father doesn't say, Lord, I need help with my unbelief. I do believe, but I need help with my unbelief. He leads with his belief. He emphasizes that. I do believe. I need some help believing more or continuing to believe,

but don't emphasize the doubts and the unbelief. Lead with your belief and then ask God to help with whatever part you're not believing, rather than instead focusing on the unbelief and going to the world to ask for help with further unbelieving. I think there's something really powerful in that. I think that this is something that we probably all have felt at times, and something that we all need to feel. We can recognize, I have faith. Right now, I'm not sure I have faith enough for this. And I still have enough faith to ask for more faith. In fact, I think this is what we see with Peter.

So his faith is shaken enough, he starts to sink as he's walking on water. But what's the first thing he says? Lord, save me. He still believes that Christ can save him, right? That's what I think we see with this man, is this recognition that he has some belief. In fact, Alma teaches us what you need to start is just a desire to believe. If you have a desire to believe, you can start there, and then you can have belief and know that you need more belief, and as long as you are still turning to the Savior, not turning elsewhere, not looking at the waves, not looking at the world, but turning to the Savior,

he can increase that belief so that the miracle that you need can happen. Maybe it's eventually, but so that the miracle that you need can happen. One of the reasons this verse speaks powerfully to me is an experience I had with it once. It was when I was on my mission and I had a companion. He's a Tongan companion, Elder Tony Sela, who was the most faithful person I've ever met. Incredibly faithful, had so much faith, and incredibly in tune with the Spirit, just in ways I can't even express. And we all felt this from him. Everyone knew it. And there was one night we went on out split. So I went with a word mission leader and he went with a word missionary and we did stuff.

And I got sick pretty quickly. And the word mission leader had to take us back to our apartment and wait for the other missionaries to get home. So that I had a fever and I was shaking and my body was aching and I didn't know what to do. I was just felt terrible. I didn't know what to do. We had six of us that lived in that apartment, six missionaries. And my companion and some of the other missionaries got home and I asked for a blessing. And my companion gave me a blessing and said that I would be made whole and healed right then.

And they kind of all stepped away and were talking and stuff. And I'm still sick. And one of the other missionaries came over, bless his heart. And he said, you know, Elder Town, you see, they wouldn't have said that if it wasn't what was supposed to happen. So if you have enough faith, you know, you'll be made whole. And I thought, you know, I believe that. And what came to my mind was, Lord, I believe, help my unbelief. And I was just a wash of belief came over me.

And for about five seconds, I shook even more violently. And then I was completely 100% fine. No fever, no chills, no pains, nothing in my stomach, nothing. 100% fine because I had cried out. I know you talked with Jan Martin about memorizing scriptures. That's one that was just a part of me enough that I could just, in my hour of need, reach out and say, Lord, I believe. Help down my unbelief. And he helped my unbelief. and a miracle happened in my life. And I don't know that it's always going to be that quickly. Like I said, right now, I'd like for some things to be

more quick in my own life, but I continue to pray this now. I continue to pray as I seek for and expect miracles, like President Nelson asked us to. I continue to say, I believe, help my unbelief, and I have seen miracles. Not always exactly the ones I wanted, but the ones that God knows we need. And you see it happen with this family. It's not easy either with this young man. Verse 25,

When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him and enter no more into him. And the spirit cried out and rent him sore. This wasn't easy or fun. Rent him sore and came out of him. And he was as one dead, insomuch that many said he is dead. But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up and he arose. That's just one of the most beautiful miracles, partially because it's a parent and child miracle, and partially because of the struggle with it, and partially because of the healing and that particle of belief. And it is in connection

with this miracle that the Savior will say, if you have faith as a grain of a mustard seed, he will eventually teach them just a little bit of faith, and you come to me with it, and oh, what we can do together, which reminds me of your quote earlier from President Benson, just turn your life over to Christ and see what he can do with that. You come with a little bit of belief, come to Christ, and what can happen is beyond what we can imagine. Now, Elder Holland goes on to say, I would say to all who wish for more faith, remember this man, just like you did, Carrie. In moments of fear or doubt or troubling times, hold the ground you have already won, even if that ground is limited. In the growth we all have to experience immortality, the spirit equivalent of this boy's affliction or this parent's desperation is going to come to all of us. When those moments come, the resolution of which is not immediately

forthcoming, hold fast to what you already know and stand strong until additional knowledge comes. Yeah, that talk, April 2013 of Elder Holland, called Lord I Believe. And I'm so glad this story is in here because it kind of helps us as readers, as imperfect people to know, to identify with him. Maybe I've got some belief, but I've got some unbelief and, but I can ask for help with that, with that unbelief and get it. Yeah. We all fit somewhere into this story. There's a part of us that fits somewhere into this story and the story of the man of Bethsaida who was healed by stages. There's a part of our lives that can identify with those stories. Thank goodness for people who recorded them so that we could find

what we need in our own lives. Yeah. Kerry, this has been a fantastic day. What do you hope our listeners walk away with when it comes to this lesson this week? I'm happy to answer that, and it's probably an answer that I give to just about everything. But what I hope is that they walk away that they are able to feel how much God and his son love us and how much they are willing to do for us. Whether that is to heal us by stages, to take our faith where it is and move it somewhere else. Whether it is to reveal their full glory to us, whether that is to have people translated a thousand years before so that they can then come and bestow keys that we need. Whatever it is, whether it be taking us in stages we recognize Christ as a prophet, then we come to understand he's the Messiah, the Son of God. They take us where we are. They love us so much. They will take us wherever we are and slowly bring us to be the kind of beings that one day will be as glorious as what they saw on the Mount of

Transfiguration, where we will be full of light and truth and glory and have joy beyond what we can even comprehend. And all of that is because they love us enough to covenant with us, be connected with us, and then suffer for Christ to suffer and die for us so that we can be transfigured or changed permanently into something better. God loves us. He just loves us. Thank you, Kerry, for being here. Thank you for your time and your expertise. This has been a lot of fun. Grateful that you've been here. John, anything before we close up? Just that last thing, it just reminds me that the invitation to come

unto Christ is a come as you are invitation. You don't have to be perfect first. It's come unto me, come unto Christ and be perfected in him. So it's come as you are, wherever you are, even if you feel far away, just come. Just come. And that's his invitation to us. So thank you for that, Cary. Yeah. It's fun watching Peter get rebuked and praised. Rebuked and praised.

Peter is constantly getting corrected. I think that's why we love him because he's trying to do the right thing and he gets corrected a lot, but following the Savior. And that's us, isn't it? We're constantly being corrected. Yeah. Yeah. Corrected and praised. Corrected and praised. That's the life of a disciple. Awesome. Thank you to both of you for being here. John, I don't know if I thank you enough. You can't thank John enough. I'm so thankful to be here. Look at all my notes today.

This is great. Well, we want to thank again, Dr. Kerry Muehlstein. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorenson, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorenson, and our founder, the late Steve Sorenson. We hope you'll join us next week. We have more New Testament coming up on Follow Him. Today's transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co, followhim.co. And you can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on Facebook and Instagram. All of this is absolutely free, so be sure to share with your family and friends. To reach those who are searching for help with their Come Follow Me study, please subscribe, rate, review, or comment on the podcast, which makes the podcast easier to find. Thank you.

We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.