followHIM - Matthew 3; Mark 1; Luke 3 Part 2 • Dr. Shon Hopkin • Jan. 23 - Jan. 29

Episode Date: January 18, 2023

Dr. Shon Hopkin continues to explore the blessings of baptism and being part of the family of Jesus Christ.Please rate and review the podcast!Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.coApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYThanks to the follow HIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to Part 2 with Dr. Sean Hopkin, Matthew Chapter 3, Mark Chapter 1, and Luke Chapter 3. Do you remember, Hank, in the Old Testament when Jesse's supposed to go get a new king, 1 Samuel Chapter 8? The Lord says, you know, they haven't rejected you, they've rejected me, but tell them the manner of their kings. He's going to take your daughters and make them confectionaries. He's going to take your sons and make them run before the king's chariots. And that reminded me of that, Sean, when you said that, that they will be forerunners to clear the way, take out the rocks and fill in the divots. But I love the symbol of that.

So make the path straight means to be a forerunner. We won't go there, but I'm looking at Luke chapter one, verse 17. He shall go before him. This is John the Baptist in the spirit and power of Elias to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children. So notice John the Baptist isn't saying, although he dresses sort of in this way, and he's described in the gospel of Matthew in these terms that are reminiscent of Elijah, of Elias, and he's going to go in the spirit and power of Elias. And that's

then what Joseph Smith is going to talk about. Let me read you something from Joseph Smith about the spirit of Elias. So this is from teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith. Many of us recognize that as the old blue book that I used to love that had a compilation by Joseph Fielding Smith. Pages 335 to 36, the spirit of Elias is to prepare the way for a greater revelation of God, which is the priesthood of Elias or the priesthood that Aaron was ordained unto. And when God sends a man into the world

to prepare for a greater work, holding the keys of the power of Elias, it was called the doctrine of Elias, even from the early ages of the world. John's mission was limited to preaching and baptizing, but what he did was legal. When Jesus Christ came to any of John's disciples, he baptized them with fire and the Holy Ghost. You can see the connection there with what we're reading here and what we're working to get to, which is the baptism. I explained this to my daughter the other day

when she's like, what is John the Baptist's role exactly? And I said, well, think of it as he gets Instagram account going, that gets a couple of hundred thousand followers. And then when Jesus shows up, he hands that Instagram account over to Jesus, gives him the password and says, it's all yours. Take it away. And she went, oh, okay. I get it. So modern day example of how John might look today. I love that. And she's like, I get it, dad. Yeah. I get it. And honestly, let me just say, I think as Latter-day Saints, for me, the goal is, so if I serve as a bishop and it's okay to want to be the best bishop ever, but I've sort of reoriented following John the Baptist's example, or at least tried to reorient to say, no, my goal

isn't to be the best bishop or whatever, ever. I want to prepare the way so that the bishop who comes after me will be the best bishop ever. And there's something that sort of centers on us that says, I've got to be the best one. It's about me, but no, I am preparing the way so that we have this crescendo, this increase. And it's not about me. I am just as willing to disappear so that when I'm gone, everybody isn't like, well, that was the true bishop. Now we've got the follow-up bishop. No, he's going to be in a better position to succeed after me. And I think that's what we all want with our children, isn't it? I don't want to be better than my children. I want to prepare the way so that there is this crescendo leading

up to the second coming of Christ. And to see our children go beyond us is one of the greatest joys that we can have in life. And they do so often. And that's sort of something I've learned from John the Baptist, the preparer of the way. That's beautiful. I never even thought about that. That's great. It took me actually going to Israel to recognize how important verse five is. Then went out to him, Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region round about Jordan. I don't know, in my head, I just had him close to Jerusalem, you know, before I went there. And then I go there and I think that is a long journey to go from Jerusalem down to the Jordan River. That is a ways. And to say all of Jerusalem and the region roundabout, this is a popular guy. There's a lot of people heading down that road from Jerusalem down towards Jericho towards the Jordan River. It's one of the really fun things about that area is below sea level.

Right. It's the lowest place on the planet. And so we get this really literal physical level of meaning where Jesus descended below all things because he went to the lowest spot on earth to be baptized. And he descended below all things in the way he was treated, in the way he was born, but even to be baptized went below sea level. That's such a great insight. I mean, this is the only time that the Messiah, the son of God is going to be baptized. And where does he pick to do it? Literally the lowest place on earth. He's like, and I'm making this up, but he's like, okay, where are we going to send Christ? Well, let's send him where he can be baptized at the lowest place on earth to symbolize that descent and what his ministry is going to mean and where it's going to start. That's really great. Yeah. And to have all these people going out there, this must have been quite a scene

that all of Jerusalem and Judea and the region around about Jordan, everyone is going out there to hear this guy. He must've been so charismatic and powerful as a speaker, and they all want to be baptized of him. And he even gets the attention of the leadership. Well, yeah. And why would that be in verse seven? But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees, do you think they were coming to repent or to observe or maybe both? What do you think? Now we're talking about some feisty, right? He is not afraid to speak truth. And by the way, he is speaking in the classical tradition of prophets where there's truth speakers and they speak what God wants them to speak because that's what needs to be heard.

And why is he critiquing these leaders? He sounds a lot like Isaiah. He sounds a lot like Elijah, where he's saying, you have actually stepped on the face of my people. You are crushing my people. And he comes to protect the innocent. We see him as being feisty, and he is, but I want you to think of him as protecting God's children. He is standing up manfully, so to speak, to really speak out for goodness and righteousness. There's some pretty sinister things going on or else he would not speak this way. Sean, you might've already mentioned this, but maybe it's worth hitting again that

by going down to the Jordan, do you think he's recalling some old Testament going back down to the Jordan and saying, look, let's go back to the days of Joshua and Moses. And I mentioned wilderness, sort of this Exodus from Babylon back to Jerusalem, but I think just as well said is the Exodus as they come up out of the world. So coming up out of the water and you remember that Josh was going to bring them, so to speak, through the Jordan. Moses had earlier brought them through the Red Sea. And now Moses, okay, now we're going to the promised land. I've almost liked the imagery, but it's imagery.

And so it can mean, I'm not saying this is the correct interpretation, but I've loved the imagery of the Red Sea being baptism. And then when Joshua brings them through, now we're passing through the veil into the presence of the Red Sea being baptism. And then when Joshua brings them through, now we're passing through the veil into the presence of the Lord, speaking of sort of Solomon's temple imagery. But here, and he comes into the presence of the Lord, and we don't want to jump too quickly to the baptism, but we probably need to get there eventually,

where God is going to show up. That's where this chapter is leading. I love that. The Red Sea, then parting the veil, coming through and hear the presence of God. That's why Moses is such a strong type of Christ, leading them out of physical bondage through the waters of the Red Sea. And one way I've heard it is to Sinai is the mountain temple type of a thing, but they wouldn't go with him, right? But that same kind of Moses being such a strong type, this is what Jesus is going to do.

So he uses one verse to teach them. So, Sean, would it be fair to say that John the Baptist going back to the Jordan is kind of like somebody today in the U.S. going back to Valley Forge or going back to Boston and go to the harbor and say, let's go back to our roots. Let's get back to what we were supposed to be, the people of the promised land. Oh, I really like that a lot. Yeah. You know, they're going to be crossing over the Jordan. It was all one land, but you didn't have to get across the river, but to pick that spot to stop and do things. And then you have, if you're going to talk about that sort of historical memory, I think that's really powerful, Hank. And then of course, we've got all kinds of other

things. We've got ritual immersion going on here in this purification ritual. And now this is for repentance and it's going to end up being to enter into this relationship as God's people. And biblical scholars will debate ad nauseum about when they see baptism starting. There were, at some point, ritual immersions for proselytes that we would think of as pretty close to what baptisms are to bring Gentiles into the fold. And they debate whether they can see that that early or not. But of course, we've got some things in Doctrine and Covenants that talk about ordinances of washing, baptism, as Doctrine and Covenants talks about it, continuing on. What exactly that looked like or how that played out over the course of all of Israelite history is really tricky.

But there's clearly, I mean, the symbols of immersion and of purification. And then he's talking about repentance and being forgiven. This is all going to be going back to home base a little bit. It's all redolent with symbolism and meaning for his Jewish listeners, I would say. It seems to be something they're used to. I mean, at least the fact that they don't say, what are you doing? Why are you baptizing people? They seem to be somewhat used to it, but he is bold with them. This is the leadership of his people and the things he says. Indeed. I mean, verse 10, but first let's look at this, what's going to be a real challenge. And it really prefigures Christ's message. And then what's going to happen after with the ministry of the apostles after Christ's resurrection.

Look at verse nine. Think not to say within yourselves, we have Abraham to our father. I say to you, God is able to, of these stones to raise up children of Abraham. He's sort of blowing it all up and saying, just like Abinadi does with Noah. Nope, you are missing it. Let's go back to the 10 commandments is what Abinadi does. And he says, listen, God can make these stones. It's about holiness. It's about

discipleship as we would talk about it. It's about seeking after the Lord with all of your heart. You've got to change the way you see the world. It's not about power dynamics. Who's your genealogy? Yeah, this sounds like a genealogy thing. It's fun to see, particularly, I think, in John's writings where he talks about becoming the sons of God. And as a teenager, I thought, wait a minute, I thought we're all sons and daughters of God. But there's kind of an encouragement to act like it. If you're the children of Abraham, do the works of Abraham. If you're a son of God,

act like a son of God type of thing. Sometimes I do think there are those who feel some loss. Well, if I come out of the wrong kind of family or even the wrong kind of genealogy, I think it's very comforting. And it just happens to be that way right now, but has been for quite some time. If you look at our highest church leaders, the first presidency and the 12 apostles, the majority of them come out of home situations that have each their own challenges, maybe less active parents, maybe one parent or an early death, some real challenges. And that doesn't mean that you have to come out of some challenges in your early life

for God to use you, but it just says God can use all of us. It's about us seeking after the Lord. So he's trying to blow all of that stuff up and it's persuasive. People love it. It resonates with them. They're like, oh, wow, this guy is speaking truth. This isn't just the way it is. He's speaking to my soul and they flock to hear him because they feel it. I would say it's persuasive. Well, he's going to keep going. There's some really great imagery here about verse 10. Now also the ax is laid onto the root of the tree. It's quite a threat, isn't it? I mean. Yeah. He's not pulling any punches.

I love that imagery. Right when you're going to chop it down, the first thing you do is, let's see, here's where I want it to hit. You lay it at the root and then you take your backswing. That's exactly what you do. And it's like, oh, this is really close. And then you hit about six inches different from where you planned on. Where you aimed. Hank loves to talk about Jacob 5, but it's so interesting how often in the scriptures, trees are people. In Isaiah, the cedars of Lebanon will fall by a mighty wind. God becomes a lumberjack and he'll hewn down. And he's not talking about deforestation here, is he?

He's talking about you guys are the trees and the axe is laid at the root. That's like, I'm just about to strike. Yeah, like, where's your good fruit? What'd you say, Sean? He's not pulling any punches. I like that. He is very bold with his leaders. He goes to a tree and you're talking about this Jacob five and trees are individuals.

We just came in the previous verse out of, hey, your ancestry isn't going to save you. And then he goes right to what we still today use as sort of this genealogy symbol. He's like, no, this can be chopped up. If you're not drawing sustenance from the roots, you're sort of already separated from the roots. So let's just make that clear. I've heard somewhere that vipers, distinct from just being snakes, vipers are a subset of snakes, but that vipers are venomous. And that he's actually referring to them a subset of snakes, but the vipers are venomous and that he's actually referring to them as not just snakes, but venomous.

And we know from the scriptures, in fact, it's a source of confusion that snakes have been used for good symbols too, like the brazen serpent, but that here they're not just snakes, but they're vipers. And comparing this Pharisees and Sadducees as being venomous is a strong indictment on how John's talking about them. Does that make any sense? Yeah, it does. And I think I would be really uncomfortable here because I just don't like conflict. So to witness this little exchange, I'd be, whoa, he's really saying some strong things to these guys. That's really great. And I love that. I've just been looking that up while you

were talking. Echidna or echidna, a snake. Our texts do not permit identification of species, but the term ordinarily suggests a poisonous one. Vipara amotetes, commonly known as sand viper. So I think you're spot on. We may not know that with 100% certainty, but that seems to be what he's doing. A poisonous snake. Goodness. And Hank, I just think you're right. When you look at an example of courage, you think of John the Baptist, don't you? In front of the crowds, no less, right? The crowds are there. I wonder if all the crowds are Jesus uses later on? Like, yeah, I'll answer you if you answer me. The baptism of John, was it of God or of men? And they're like, well, if we say that.

We can't say that. Yeah, they're still scared of John after his death. We fear the people. Oh, we don't know what to answer thee. And Jesus says, well, neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things. I love that Jesus brings up John the Baptist again after he's already gone. He's preparing the way. What a great connection between they thinking their genealogy is going to save them and him saying the Lord can cut that genealogy right in half with the root of the tree.

I'd never seen that before. You can change your roots and branches. To use the Malachi language, yeah, your roots and branches. Now, in classical Hebrew prophetic form, he's feisty, but look at, he turns it positive. It's not lacking in hope. So he's going to a pretty strong sort of saying, hey, you got to see this accurately. But notice the very next thing that he says, I indeed baptize you with water and repentance. Come on, come be baptized, repent, come and be cleansed, change, adopt a new way of seeing the world. But he that cometh after me, and he's testifying of Christ, even as he's baptized,

he's pointing beyond himself over and over again. He that come after me is mightier than I, and he's the one that's going to baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire. But then his fan is in his hand. He will thoroughly purge his floor. I think most understand the imagery that's being used there. There is a chaff that gets ground up as you're trying to separate the wheat from the chaff. And then you toss it into the air and the wind will blow that chaff away. Because the chaff actually, there's no substance. There's no value. What you want is the wheat head.

You want the fruit, that that has really substance in it. And then he's going to gather his wheat into the garner. That's the imagery there in verse 12. So you're tossing it up and the chaff gets blown away while the wheat comes back down to you. Exactly. But the other way you're going to burn it and it's there, the chaff remains to be burned. It's the wheat that you want. So there's different ways of doing that, but you're separating the chaff from the wheat and then gathering. And President Nelson talks a lot about gathering. And we have John the Baptist right at the beginning of the Meridian of Times using gathering image for imagery for the wheat.

Gather the wheat into the garner. It's really nice. Yeah. So he is bold, but yet he offers them an opportunity. Yes. It's tinged with hope and opportunity. As you said, you don't have to stay where you are. Change your way of seeing things and then come and show it by being baptized, by going down into the water, as he says, unto repentance.

Now we come to it, the big moment. Here we are. We've been building to it. Let's read all of the verses and then we can talk about them. Yeah. Let's have John do a little reading. John's got a great reading voice. Verse 13. Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John to be baptized of him.

But John forbade him saying, I have need to be baptized of thee and comest thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 and 17. And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water. And lo, the heavens were opened unto him. And he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting upon him. And lo, a voice from heaven saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

This is so crucial. This is so crucial. This is so pivotal. There's all kinds of imagery that we learn from, and we sort of pull from different places about baptism, but this is right at the beginning of Christ's ministry. So his first 30 years leads to this moment. And it's a gateway and it doesn't end thing. It's not the capstone baptism isn't.

It's the beginning of a pathway. It's the beginning of a journey, but it changes everything here. That symbol, that moment. So let's talk about it in the new Testament. But before we're done, I want to talk about it a little bit in the ordinance of baptism here in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

But first, let's sort of dig into these verses a little bit. Make sure as you're studying this that you spend some time with Nephi in 2 Nephi 30, as he talks about Christ, the sinless one who still fulfills righteousness to show us the way. An epistle to the Hebrews is going to do a lot of this where Christ is marking out a pathway. He's strengthening us for that path. He's showing us the path and he's enabling us to walk upon that path. I often ask students, did Christ need baptism? And the answer is, well, no. But if Christ hadn't been baptized, would that have been sinful, so to speak? Well, that would have been his first moment of rebellion. Here in this moment, he could say, I don't need this.

This is extraneous. And I think sometimes people may feel that as they gather on the Sunday. Well, I'm doing fine. Why do I need to go to church? Why do I need to gather here? And others are feeling, no, I need this. Like a thirsty man needs water in the wilderness. But Christ here is saying, suffer it to be so.

I love my father and I submit, so to speak. This symbol of loyalty, the symbol of submission, the symbol of, and of course, it's a symbol of new birth. So if you think of the way the earth began, the way it's described in Genesis 1 is that it's a watery globe and then land emerges, right? And if you think of imagery from Christ's atoning sacrifice, you have both in the Garden of Gethsemane, where it's his sweat was, as it were, great drops of blood. And so you have this bloody sweat, water and blood imagery. You have at his crucifixion, as the spear goes into water and blood imagery, you have birth imagery from his atoning sacrifice. And Christ, the sinless one, the perfect one, becomes a new soul, so to speak.

This is part of growing grace for grace or grace to grace. And it's so powerful. It's so crucial that we signify our inner commitment with a behavior of holiness by going down into the water. Suffer it to be so now, for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him, this beautiful moment. And Joseph Smith has talked about, and you see it in verse 16, Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water. We've all seen depictions as Latter-day Saints that are a little sensitive to us when Jesus is down in the water.

And then he's not immersed, but there's some other form. And this is immersion that's being talked about here. Joseph Smith talked about the meaning of this word where it's to immerse or to dip. You're going into the water. Joseph Smith says this, We find no subject so nearly connected with salvation as that of baptism. In the first place, however, let us understand the word baptize is derived from the Greek verb baptizo, which means to immerse or overwhelm, and the sprinkle is from the Greek

verb rantizo, it means to scatter on by particles. The gospel requires baptism by immersion for the remission of sins, which is the meaning of the word in the original language, namely to bury or immerse, or as we might say, to dip. You have all kinds of doctrines that are near and dear to the Latter-day Saint heart, the importance of baptism, Christ showing us the way. If even the Son of God needs to fulfill all righteousness by being baptized, then how much more so we, there can be a debate with some of our Protestant friends. Well, is it essential for salvation? And in my discussions with them, not that I'm winning the argument or anything like that. I mean, we both go away still viewing it pretty much the same way, but I say, well, there are a requirement and that's

sensitive to some because they don't want there to be works that we're. It sounds like a work that you have to do or something. But at the same time, if baptism is available and I say no, then I've rejected a gift God is offering me and I can't be saved and reject God at the same time. So it starts to feel a little bit to me like we're parsing meaning so far that I don't understand the difference anymore. Yes, God offers all of us this gift, and as Latter-day Saints would understand it, and we need to accept so that we don't reject God, God's love, so to speak. In preparation, I spent a little time in the Bible dictionary under baptism, and there's just some great statements here I'd like

to share. This is the last paragraph. Baptism is a most sacred ordinance, which a person having received it can remember throughout life as a reminder of the personal commitment to Jesus Christ. Kind of that day I committed my life. Its symbolism is beautiful and its consequences ever so desirable. Isn't that beautiful? Its symbolism is beautiful and its consequences ever so desirable. Isn't that beautiful? Its symbolism is beautiful and its consequences ever so desirable. Well, why don't we pause then and talk about baptism for a moment as we experience it as those of us who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. There's a verse that I've always loved in Doctrine and Covenants 84 that says, in the ordinances of the priesthood, the power of godliness is manifest. I had an experience on my mission.

I served in Spain. I didn't see very many baptisms during my mission or at that time, but there was a baptism occurring and we had invited some people who were learning about the church to come and see the baptism. Well, we got there and it was a rented chapel and I was used to sort of a bigger American style chapel. And they had sort of a swimming pool with little metal rung stairs that was there for the baptism. That's how they had set it up. And I remember being distracted because I was a little embarrassed at the way that it looked. And the little children, as we often do, were invited up to the front to this beautiful

ceremony, this beautiful ordinance. And at the end of the ordinance, the children started clapping and they're like, do it again, do it again. And I was like, oh, goodness. My 19-year-old self was feeling a little embarrassed that it wasn't a little bit grander, so to speak. And then I looked over at those that I had invited, and they were weeping. And I realized that I had totally missed. And it's so quick.

There's all this buildup. And then you're immersed. And then you come up. One of my Baptist friends, Pastor Brian Reedy is his name, and he ended up joining the church. I had to quit his pastorate at that point and join the church. And he actually asked me to be the one who baptized him. And I didn't get him under the first time. We had to do it twice.

And he said, that's okay, Sean. It gave me more time to appreciate what was going on. It's so quick, but it's a gateway. It's a door. And if you think of what's happening, if you think of the baptismal waters, almost like a veil and you're going into them, and Paul says it symbolizes death of the old man and then the new man is reborn. And then we emerge and the very next thing that happens at Christ baptism and that happens at Latter-day Saint baptism, the baptism today are the gift of the Holy Ghost is given. You enter into the presence of God. It's powerful.

It's sacred. You've got even the way we set up at the baptismal font with those cherubim, so to speak, guarding the way into the presence of God. They want you to come in, but they're saying, we got to do this right. Oh, a toe floated up. We're just trying to do it the way that God has indicated. Well, let's do it again. We're just trying to do it the way that God has indicated. Well, let's do it again. And then you come into the presence of God and that's exactly what we see happening here. And it's so powerful. It's life-changing. My son, who's just started his mission, we're all different, but I can remember the day I was baptized and sometimes people can't. My son remembers after he wasn't sure he felt very special with the baptism, but then after hands were laid on his head and he was offered the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And then he talks about my grandma getting up to speak and bearing her testimony. And he said, I've never felt that way before. And then as he's born testimony of that in later years, it comes back to him and the spirit reaffirms this is real in the ordinances of the priesthood, the power of godliness is manifest. Oh, that's good. So if you think of this gateway to opening the path, and then that's how it functions for Christ himself. And this is powerful. I don't know the two of you, any thoughts from your own baptismal experience or that with your family members?

I just love the idea of a new start and the born again idea. We sometimes can say baptism is being born again, but I think baptism is more from what I understood, one of the events in the process of being born again. That being born again is a process. Elder Christofferson, Elder Bednar have talked about that. And baptism is kind of an event. But I mean, it's fun to read Alma 5 where he's my brother of the church. Have you been born of God? And he's like, you've been baptized, but you haven't been born again.

And that it's part of the beginning of that process. But I love that it's kind of like the sacrament, this kind of physical outward symbol that we do, but there's great meaning in it. Like you said, it's a new start to be born again and start over. And as you mentioned, Paul, it's like the old man of sin is buried and you walk in newness of life. And it's such an outward symbol. i think of just anciently not everybody was literate but they could be taught by these symbols and they could see the power of godliness in the symbols like you mentioned i love that you took us to alma 5 if you think of something else he says if you've felt to sing the song of redeeming love can you feel so now well so think of an old testament

precedent for that is after they've come through the Red Sea and they're on the other side, Miriam's song there, this song of, I'm saved. I've come up out of Egypt and it's miraculous. How could this have happened? And this song of redeeming love. And notice it's right after what Paul describes as a baptism symbol, the coming through the Red Sea and up and out on the other side. And notice it's right after what Paul describes as a baptism symbol, the coming through the Red Sea and up and out on the other side. And they sing what I would think of as the song of redeeming love. And then he's like, but then you put yourself back into captivity. Like I redeemed you, but you keep going back and sing that song again. And I'm so grateful that the

sacrament and it's these moments when we have these internal beliefs and then we act them out with behaviors of holiness with our physical bodies that God has given us. I will stand as a witness and it's personal. It's between me and God. We do ordinances. We tend to do them in very public kind of spaces because it's like marking our doorpost. This is who I am. I'm like John the Baptist.

I'm not embarrassed by it. I will participate in this ordinance because I'm standing as a witness of God and I'm using my body to sort of cement my beliefs so that they become engraven upon my very soul, so to speak. I'm not just going to hold it in here or in here. I will act it out in behaviors of holiness. And those are powerfully changing moments. And they have to be replicated elsewhere in scripture study and prayer and in private personal religious behaviors. But those ordinances are powerful gateways that help us connect with our God, who as Latter-day Saints believe, of course, is a physical slash spiritual being himself. And he reaches through the veil to connect with us and help us to become as he is.

Thank you. There's a great verse in Moses 6, 59, where the Lord talks about being reborn. He says, you were born into this world by water, blood, and spirit, and became of dust, a living soul. Even so, you must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine only begotten. You talked earlier, Sean, about birth imagery. There's a lot of three things when a baby is born. I've seen this happen with my own children being born. There's a lot of blood, there's a lot of water, and there's a lot of spirit. And the Lord seems to be saying, we were going to do that again. You're going to be born of water. You're going to be immersed totally in water. You're going to be given the gift of the Holy Ghost. But this time,

it's not going to be the blood of your mother that gives you life. It's going to be my blood that gives you life. I've always liked this connection because the day that my children were born, I remember that day. And yes, there was a lot still left to go. It definitely wasn't an ending point. It was a beginning point. There's a lot of growth still left, but man, that day where they became ours is a special day. And I think of baptism the same way, that the Lord looks at this brand new member of his family saying, now you're mine. Now you go where I go.

Now I take care of you. You're in my family now. Thank you, Hank. That's a very Book of Mormon. What is Mosiah 2630? Blessed is this people who are willing to bear my name for in my name shall they be called and they are mine. I love that because I put my name on my scriptures at Deseret Book.

They emboss it and that means they're mine. And we put upon us the name of Christ and that means we're his. And in Mosiah 18, when now the elder takes him out to the waters of Mormon, and he gives them what Elder Holland called the most complete scriptural statement on record as to what the newly baptized commit to do and be. And I think together we could probably remember it all. Are you willing to come into the fold of God, to be called his people, to mourn with those that mourn, to comfort those who stand in need of comfort. And to me, it's interesting that part of it is personal as part of it is now, what are you going to do for others to mourn with those that mourn, to comfort those who stand in need of comfort? And as you said, Sean, to stand as a witness of God at all times and all things and all places, we get such a nice list about what it means for us to be baptized in Mosiah 18.

Yeah. I just like the idea of the same way I care for my children. I take that responsibility when they become mine. When my wife and I held that baby in our arms and said, okay, this is our responsibility to make sure this one grows and is healthy and safe. And I think the Lord sees us that same way when we're baptized. I will take care of you. You are mine. You are in my family. It wouldn't be heaven without you there. I will take you with me.

So blood, water, and spirit. We talked about the sort of blood and water images at Christ's atoning sacrifice. And then the sort of pregnant, I probably shouldn't use that word, but this sort of pregnant pause as he has promised them the gift of the Holy Ghost. And then it's fulfilled 40 days later on the other side of this 40 day time of preparation and testing and kind of thing. But then think of birth. So there can be a lot of water and there's a lot of blood, but then that breath of life

when the baby breathes in. Oh, and then the spirit you feel at a childbirth and then the spirit you feel as you are witnessing that at baptism. But as Joseph Smith says, might as well baptize a bag of sand as a human if you're not going to give them the gift of the Holy Ghost. Yeah, it's half a baptism. Yes, yes. And the spirit. And then for that then to play out in this very powerful way. And I love the family connection because there is something clearly crucial in Christ's development here when God, His Father now shows up, so to speak, and proclaims the family relationship.

If you look at the Gospels, it appears to be a public moment. Maybe Jesus is the only one that can see the Father, but the voice appears to be heard by others. He's speaking about Christ. This is my beloved Son, not you are my beloved sons, so in third persons. That appears to be a public witness that is both for Christ to then cement that surety, and then it propels him forward through the rest of his ministry, but also for others where God places his name, so to speak, his family name upon him. I love what you talked about putting your name on the scriptures. It's engraven. Have you had Christ image engraven? Even the word for ordinance in Hebrew is kok, or the verb is hok.

A statute or an ordinance is from the same word as engrave, right? Sort of think of God engraving the Ten Commandments. And so he's engraving his identity. This is my beloved son. This is something unique. This is something different. This isn't just a really good guy. This is, or as it's called in other languages, my only begotten son. And I am pleased. Then Satan in the very next chapter is going to come and try to wipe all that away. And notice that when Satan comes attempting, he does often does so just before spiritual experiences

or just after them. And the goal is not just to erase the spiritual experience. It's to turn it upside down. And there are those who, when that happens, then all of a sudden their early spiritual promptings begin to feel sinister to them. Oh, that was false. It wasn't just not true. It was a lie. And Satan tries to

come and turn it upside down for Christ. But it's so powerful what happens. So let's talk about this last reason. We've talked about the importance of baptism by immersion leading to the gift of the Holy Ghost. He comes to the, well, we didn't talk about this, but he comes to the authorized individual in order to perform that baptism. And now let't talk about this, but he comes to the authorized individual in order to perform that baptism. And now let's talk about this emphasis on three members of the Godhead. Now, by the way, your Catholic and other Christian friends can read this verse and it does not undo for them the doctrine of the Trinity, right? They certainly, the understanding, the traditional Christian understanding of the Trinity is that God is the Trinity can be represented in the way that's here in these verses.

And I would say at the same time for Latter-day Saint readers, we're like, yeah. And it seems almost like the Gospel of Matthew is pushing this point, is emphasizing this. The location of this, Jesus is coming up out of the waters. The spirit of God is descending like a dove. So you've got movement from heaven to earth and lighting upon him. And then God's voice from heaven. This is my beloved son. So it's almost emphasizing there's a father, there's a son, and there is the Holy Ghost. And of course, for Latter-day Saints, that first article of faith and this understanding that they are one

but three separate beings, other Christians would say three persons but one being. Latter-day Saints see that really strongly taught and echoed here in chapter three? I think two things. First, I think one of the finest kind of our understanding of the Father, Son, Holy Ghost talks I've ever heard was Elder Holland, October 2007, called the only true God in Jesus Christ whom he hath sent. Super good explanation. But one of the things I love to show my classes here is how often do we hear the voice

of the Father? Not very often. And the footnotes are right there. So if you look at footnotes 17b, you see Matthew 17. So there's the Mount of Transfiguration. You see 3 Nephi 11. There's Jesus coming to the righteous among the Lamanites and Nephites. And then you see Joseph Smith history 117. So there's the first vision. And the consistent part is what does he do? As you said, Sean, he confirms his, this is my son in each case. And I love the titles of Jesus's mediator, advocate, intercessor. But sometimes the one that Jesus is advocating us to, is that the way I would

say that? The father, sometimes the father's voice shows up and confirms this is my son. So I like those footnotes. They are certainly significant moments when you hear the father's voice. Interestingly enough, if you look in 2 Nephi 30 and 31, there's this really fascinating thing Nephi does. The father says this and then the son says this. And whether that's actually the father speaking or if it's Christ in his role as the one who gives spiritual life. But it's sort of fascinating, but it's all connected to baptismal discussions. At the opening of the pathway, it's there. And then in the, like you said, the Mount of Transfiguration, and then how fascinating

is it for Latter-day Saints at the opening of the dispensation of fullness of times, there is the Father once again confirming that this is going to center on the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, who is the power to lead us to the Father. And then it's really beautiful to see Christ own his sonship, so to speak, and that's so meaningful to him. And he's constantly pointing to the Father. As the Father points to him, he consistently points back to the Father, that beautiful relationship, father-son relationship that's there. I'd love that you said that to open up the restoration.

Here's the Joseph Smith history 117 reference. And it's also kind of fun to think that there's John the Baptist at the Jordan River. And then when he shows up at the beginning of the restoration, where is he? The banks of the Susquehanna River. He's at a river and then invites Joseph and Oliver to be baptized there. So John likes rivers. That's what we're hearing. He likes rivers. It would appear so. He likes cleansing imagery, new birth imagery. All right. There's maybe one other point that we should take a moment on here before we start to conclude. And that is this idea

of the spirit of God descending like a dove. Like a dove, right. Yes. And as Joseph Smith, he's going to talk about this here. And I think it's important for us as Latter-day Saints to understand this. And this comes from

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pages 275 to 76. The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a dove. We don't learn that anywhere else. That's from Joseph Smith that we learn that the devil cannot imitate that sign.

The Holy Ghost is a personage and is in the form of a personage. So the point he's making is that the Holy Ghost doesn't shapeshift, right? It's not like the Holy Ghost is a dove or he's put himself in the form of the dove. You could say the Holy Ghost doesn't shapeshift, right? It's not like the Holy Ghost is a dove or he's put himself in the form of the dove. You could say the Holy Ghost descends. And if you look at John, he's descending like a dove and then Matthew here as well. So peacefully, beautifully, the symbol of new life, it does not confine itself to the form of a dove, but in the sign of a dove, the Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove, but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed as the dove was an emblem or token of truth.

Now, just for fun, let's look at where dove comes from. There is a dove that of course signifies that the land has emerged after the flood. And notice you've got water and new birth symbolism. And then a dove on the other side signifies, okay, now the story can move forward. If you look at the first creation story, you may have implications of this. Remember, the spirit of God is hovering over the waters is sort of the way that the scriptures describe it. Now that's maybe a little bit more symbolic or metaphorical, but I think there's a connection being made there with dove kind of imagery and the spirit of God. And then a really fun one is the name Jonah. And remember, Christ is going to talk about Jonah as the symbol for

his ministry and in his atoning sacrifice, Jonah descends into the water, ascends out of the water three days later in this sort of similar kind of imagery. And Jonah's name, lo and behold, means dove. That's what the name Jonah means. Sort of fascinating to see the dove connected to these rebirth images and moments in a way that according to Joseph Smith seems to be set so that the adversary cannot replicate it or repeat it. And one application of that might be, and something you'll hear Latter-day Saints say a lot, is that you can get a lot of different replicated feelings from the adversary, but I think most Latter-day Saints would feel comfortable that, but peace doesn't seem to be one of those. Peace doesn't seem to be one of the things that

Satan is very good at mimicking or replicating, so to speak. I think an important little, almost an aside, but to help us understand the Holy Ghost better, or at least not to misunderstand how we would read this, the Holy Ghost descending as a dove or like a dove. I want to bring up a doctrinal point that to me is kind of interesting is that we sometimes talk about baptism as having our sins washed away. And I found in the Book of Mormon, there's many more verses that it's actually the Holy Ghost that cleanses us or the refiner's fire that cleanses the Holy Ghost as a fire that cleanses us. But I found both. And in the article of faith, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins.

And then it says Holy Ghost later. But scripturally, I think it sounds more like the Holy Ghost is the cleanser. That's why I really appreciate that Joseph Smith saying, if you baptize someone and don't give them the Holy Ghost, that's half a baptism. So I kind of feel like baptism is a word umbrella that has both of those things, born of water, born of the Spirit type of a thing. That's how I make sense of it. But I love your comment. I just totally agree that one needs to lead to the other. You go through a gate because there's something on the other side. And if you think of sort of Old Testament temple symbolism, then there's these symbols in the outer courtyard. There's water, there's blood

with animal sacrifice. And then you're through the door. If you're one of the priests, you pass into the holy place and there's this menorah shining light and Nephi even says, now the Holy Ghost is going to show you what to do. And now you're through the gate and now the Holy Ghost helps you walk forward. To walk through a gate and then not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, you think, well, okay, well, what was the purpose of walking through the gate? You might say the second half, as you're saying, John, or the fulfillment of that ordinance. A member of the Godhead

is promised as your companion through the walk of life. Perfect. So 2 Nephi 31, 17, it's this actually like the second half of the verse, for the gate by which you should enter is repentance and baptism by water. Then cometh a remission of your sins by fire and by the Holy Ghost. Then are you in this straight and narrow path. I feel like the straight and narrow path is very much a biblical metaphor, but the Book of Mormon, either it's talking about the same thing or a different thing, but I feel like it's the same thing, but it's adding some more elements, like the gate at the

beginning of that straight and narrow path. You could even say, and the tree of gate at the beginning of that straight narrow path. You could even say, and the tree of life at the end of it. And this element of opposition in the great and spacious building and the mist of darkness and everything. So sorry to try to wax eloquent there, but that verse 17, I just thought, look, the remission of your sins comes by fire and by the Holy Ghost. But sometimes we speak of it coming by the water as well, don't we? That's why I wanted your comment on that. Great job.

I loved that. That's beautifully said. Sean, before we wrap up, I wanted to just come back to something that I remember you saying earlier in our interview, and I thought it was so important. It's just, it stuck with me. I'm always looking for motivators for me to do things because sometimes I don't want to do them. I sometimes find myself, like you said, I need to do this. Well, I don't want to do that. Or why should I? I don't need it. I'm fine the way I am. And then I think the application here of Jesus, his non-rebellious spirit that you

talked about saying, I'm willing to do something that perhaps I don't need to do, but I'm going to do it because it's been asked of me. That can be applied in so many ways in our lives. And I could, I'm definitely going to talk to my children about this, about there might be things you don't think you need to do or want to do, but we do them because we're submissive to the Father's will. Is that something that you remember talking about? Yeah. And I love that. And I would maybe just echo that with a couple of comments. First, that the way that baptism bookends the decision Christ makes to submit to the Father then maybe prefigures the decision he'll make in the Garden of Gethsemane. And you have another, it's either water imagery. He's talking about, I don't want to drink this

cup. Let this cup pass from me. It's either water or wine, which would maybe be blood imagery. Nevertheless, thy will be done. And there's this really beautiful moment in Doctrine and Covenants 19, where he's talking about his Garden of Gethsemane decision. And he says, I shrank and would that I might not. And interestingly enough, that's exactly the same language Nephi uses when he's being asked to do something difficult with Laban at the beginning of the Book of Mormon story. I don't know that we want to equate those two closely, but being asked to do something that's hard, it changes us. And so I don't think I want to live life not ever something that, well, you shouldn't make yourself do something you don't feel like. And it is true. We got to be careful not to suppress our feelings too much because God's given us feelings.

But at the same time, to always just do whatever my feelings say, I don't think that's what I'm going for either. I want to do what God wants me to do. And there's doing hard things changes us. So let's submit. Let's be willing to do that. He does it right here at baptism. Let's submit with priesthood ordinances, whether it's sacrament and be in a position to take the

sacrament, to go to the temple, et cetera, et cetera. I think that's a really powerful thought, Hank. Yeah, I just, I love the application of that. And it's going to motivate me to maybe do some things that I've been putting off because I think, oh, I don't really need to do that thing. And here's the Lord saying, maybe I don't need to, but I'm going to because it's been asked of me. And to tie that to the Garden of Gethsemane, to trials and difficulties and submitting our will to God is, I love the bookend idea. That was really cool. Well, and let me add, Hank, as we've said, there's the ordinance of baptism, but then it's only half an ordinance if the Spirit doesn't come afterwards. So I love what you're saying.

So yes, the ordinances, but then what does the Spirit tell you you got to go do? And if we don't get to that, it's sort of half an ordinance. Then the Spirit comes in and it draws you into a new way of being and new behaviors. I love that. Whatever the Spirit is telling you, yeah, you need to go do this. Stop delaying. Don't make it half an ordinance, so to speak. Let the spirit come in and guide you forward. You have helped me kind of see John the Baptist. I've always seen the giving it to him straight, but I love the invitation, kind of the softer, gentler,

come and repent and come and be baptized. I like the way you've helped me with that today. And the first paragraph in the Come Follow Me manual, it says it beautifully. Jesus Christ and his gospel can change you. Luke quoted an ancient prophecy of Isaiah that described the effect that the Savior's coming would have. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low, and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough way shall be made smooth. That's another Handel's Messiah. He uses that. This message is for all of us, including those who think that cannot change. Listen to this line. If something as permanent as a mountain can

be flattened, then surely the Lord can help us straighten out our own crooked paths. As we accept John the Baptist's invitation to repent and change, we prepare our minds and hearts to receive Jesus Christ so that we too can see the salvation of God. Beautiful. Could I maybe bear a witness that I'd like to share here as we're beginning to conclude our study. And that is, as I think about ordinances, I think about Christ's baptism and then the Holy Ghost descending upon him. And then as I think about ordinances in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I just want to share my witness that these things from my own experience are real, that they have power to change us, to call us into greater paths of

holiness, to encourage us, to comfort us, and to challenge us to be better. And these are not just nice things to talk about. There is power in the ordinances of the priesthood. I'm so grateful for the restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ and the difference it has made and continues to make. And I desperately need it to continue to make that difference in my life. This is real and it has power and it continues to give me joy and to challenge me to be a better man. Beautiful. Beautiful. I think that was a perfect way to finish.

Sean, thank you so much. Yeah, so good. We want to thank Dr. Sean Hopkins for being with us today. What a powerful, fun day. I've got so many notes in Matthew chapter three. I think I filled up every margin here. Thank you, Sean, for being with us. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorenson. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And of course, we want to remember our founder, the late Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week. We have another episode, another New Testament episode of Follow Him.

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