followHIM - Psalms 49–51; 61–66; 69–72; 77–78; 85–86 Part 2 • Dr. John White • August 24-30 • Come, Follow Me

Episode Date: August 20, 2026

Dr. John White continues the study of the Psalms, showing how scripture invites us to bring God our real, unfiltered emotions and revealing what it means that we have a Savior that weeps alongside us.YOUTUBE: https://youtu.be/icCVU2CI4kAALL EPISODES/SHOW NOTESfollowHIM website: https://www.followHIM.coFREE PDF DOWNLOADS OF followHIM QUOTE BOOKSNew Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastNTBookOld Testament: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastOTBookBook of Mormon: https://tinyurl.com/PodcastBMBook WEEKLY NEWSLETTERhttps://tinyurl.com/followHIMnewsletter SOCIAL MEDIAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followHIMpodcastFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastTIMECODE:0:00  Part 2 - Dr. John White1:30 Baylor Choir3:08 Belonging before believing5:57 The Fixed Morning Psalm7:43 The body and soul9:27 The temple and the sanctuary11:12 Augustine and rightly-ordered love13:56 The body being shaped in worship16:38 Body and spirit are connected18:33 Deification and the divine nature20:33 Ritual and body25:25 Dr. John White’s conversion at the Sacred Grove26:23 Elder Kim B Clark’s counsel27:50 John’s university backstory28:38 Telling his friends30:09 Opposition from his best friend32:02 Psalm 85: Mercy and truth kiss34:03 Zion and social justice35:29 “How Great the Wisdom and the Love”37:24 Zion as a place and a cause39:55 Psalm 86: Unite my heart41:57 Doubt and unbelief43:31 Consecration is the only surrender44:45 The full circle of deliverance and mercy47:20 A God who weeps51:48 End of Part 2 – Dr. John WhiteThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsAmelia Kabwika: Portuguese TranscriptsHeather Barlow: Communications DirectorSydney Smith: Social Media, Graphic Design "Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to Part 2 with Dr. John White, Psalms 49 through 86. We're going to look at Psalm 61. We get in here this phrase that the rock, we understand the rock, obviously a metaphor, is higher than I. The big idea here is the divine refuge, taking comfort in God transcends geography and any kind of emotional distance. The security is in God himself, and that we're guarded and vouchs safe by God's covenant love, not our circumstance. I love what he says. Psalm 61, 2 and 4. He says, from the end of the earth will I cry unto thee when my heart is overwhelmed. Leave me to the rock that is higher than I. I will abide in thy tabernacle forever. This is verse 4 now. I will trust in the covert of thy wings.

That's a powerful passage. It really welcomes us. When he talks about the end of the earth, He's not talking about miles. It's at the end of your resources. The prayer from the place isn't make me taller. It's lead me to the rock that is higher than I. All formation starts with this admission. Building our foundation, the New Testament, is on the rock, Jesus himself, which cannot fall. That's even kind of an echo of Heelman in chapter 5, verse 12.

You're right on. I love how he says, I don't know this is. Then we think. Yes, he does. You're doing pretty well. I want to share a story here. In 2012, when I took the job at Baylor, similar to taking the job here at BYU, my son and I moved down, but Cindy and the girls stayed back because we had to sell her house and some other circumstances that postponed their move. There was this choir from Baylor that came and it's saying, my shepherd will supply my need.

And I'd never heard that song before. I started to look at who sings that song. And guess what I discovered, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, baby. This is like this pre-evangelism that the guy was already starting to pull my heartstrings. And I love the line, no more a stranger nor a guest, that peace and belonging that comes when you understand the shepherd and what he supplies. is when I was a boy, we moved nine times. There's a lot of instability, a lot of unpredictability. One of the strengths is I can make friends very quickly,

but I always work from this insecure attachment because I'm wondering, are these my roots, are these my people, can I trust them? I love what we see in this psalm, that there's a love that does not move away. There's a love that says I belong. And this is one of the signatures of the LDS community that drives,

drew me in as that I belonged before I believed. Sociologists talk about this, that oftentimes people start with this idea that you have to assent to some beliefs, some dogma, some structure of any worldview that one holds. But we often find ourselves, enculturated, were brought into a community, and as we belong, we believe,

and that's exactly what happened to me when I began to come here and make six trips. I began to listen to the saints pray. I began to go to these lab meetings with Dr. Nelson with all of our students, the way they loved, the way they accepted me. For someone who works for my insecure attachment, that was startling to me. Like these people don't even know me and they're accepting me and loving me. Again, that was a portrait of God's accepting, God's love of me. As I began to then journey, I recognized that these people who often have been misunderstood because it was a they,

at that point, Scripture says, New Testament, that you will be known by your love. They disciples me without me knowing it. They tutored my heart. They schooled my heart. Then when I started to read the Book of Mormon, I started to get more evidence. It made the transition easily because I understood that I now belong. I'm just a decision away of fully trusting in this and getting baptized. I like that move there in Psalm 61. And then Psalm 62 is this idea of an unshaken rest of the soul is found exclusively in God. His power is always matched by his steadfast love. Again, no status or wealth can ground it. Six times in six verses, it uses the word only in verse one, two, four, five, six, and nine. Only God, not God plus savings, not God plus reputation,

only God. Then verse one declares the rest, truly my soul waiteth upon God. In verse five, we must command it, my soul, wait, thou only upon God. We see this stillness is not some kind of personality type, it's a practice. Trust is rechosen over and over. We wait, we trust, we wait, we trust, and as we get more drawn into relationship with God, that only increases our hope to continue to trust. I want to make a handoff now, though, from Psalm 62, it stills the soul. Psalm 63 aims the soul. This is one I've been waiting to talk about. Let me take some time to unpack this. There's a lot going on in Psalm 63. He says, my flesh longeth for thee. Well, the big idea is that community with God so surpasses all other earthly good, including life itself, that even the wilderness deprivation

where we're parked and were dry becomes the occasion for the soul's deepest satisfaction. Most people don't know this, the early church, meaning the broader early church, tradition, not just the Restore Gospel, early church. Psalm 63 was the fixed morning Psalm of every Sunday service. For centuries, Christians began the Lord's day by saying, early will I seek thee? I'm a morning person. I had a paper out when I was a kid, it started at 4 a.m. when I then became a Jesus follower, it wasn't hard for me to start seeking the Lord hurry in the morning. Versus my brother, when I gave the paper out over to him, my dad would look out there at 5 in the morning he had fallen asleep over the papers. So my brother prays at night. He doesn't pray in the morning.

Psalm 63 here. The first point is you don't have a thirst. I really like this. I don't believe you have a thirst. You are a thirst. Oh, God, thou art my God. Early will I seek thee. My soul thirsteth for thee. My flesh longeth for thee in a dry and thirsty land where no water is. I like how it even starts there, oh God, thou are my God. Notice it starts covenant relationship, that we belong to God. That should then catapult us. That should dispose us to want to seek him. It uses the language of the soul. As human beings, we're no like ghost in the machine. This is very concrete. In fact, I love the Hebrew language here. It talks about the throat. That's the organ of thirst. the whole living, wanting self is thirsting.

As embodied people, we're thirsting. And as early as the dawn, our first movement of waking consciousness should be for God. It escalates here. It moves from identity, thou art my God, to pursuit this soul thirst and this body ache. It's interesting. In the DNC, it talks about that the spirit and the body are the soul of man. The restoration, I think, defines the soul the way Psalm 63 does. and the way that it's prayed here.

David's flesh, bodily longing, isn't sub-spirical. It's the soul doing what souls do. We're supposed to reach out for these kinds of things as embodied creatures. The body makes possible a breath and depth and intensity of experience. And it's interesting, Elder Bednar, he has a talk on things as they really are,

and he goes into the body there in ways that I've never, I mean, it's so enriching. I think you even seek resonance here, this idea that as humans, human beings, we can't talk about what it means to be human apart from the body. In fact, a lot of philosophers talk about the difference between people who think they have a body, merely have a body, versus I am a body. That we are bodies. On one level, you can use the language, I have a body. But we are embodied creatures, and we don't want to deny or suppress that. Somehow that's

sub-spiritual. There's a view early on in the first three and four centuries of church called Gnosticism. Somehow the body is evil. Here we have way before that, heretical belief. David's showing us that the body is good. In fact, the body has thirst and longing. It ought to be ultimately longing for God. Moving this along, this is where C.S. Lewis has really helped me a lot. He has this argument from desire. This Psalm fits in there really well. He says, if I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world. Lewis talks about that hunger, corresponds to food, thirst to water. So why do humans carry a longing? Nothing that finite,

creaturely reality can satisfy is because we are made for God. Even Ecclesiastes says eternity is set in our hearts. The only thing you can satisfy it is something that's infinite, all the omnis that we know as far as the attributes of God. David's thirst ultimately is for God himself, we see. And even he says in verse two, the sanctuary, that's pretty cool. And this is something I'm really looking forward to. I can only go into the temple for proxy baptisms. So I'll get my, it's a temple endowment here in October. In fact, I meet with my bishop this week. We're working through reading Anthony Sweat, Holy Invitation. I'm really excited that you see the role of this temple and sanctuary in the Psalms too. And I really can't speak to that from the restoration gospel completely because I

haven't been, unless you guys want to give me insights. Just read Anthony's books. I've had my kids read those before they've gone through the temple. Well, what we see here then, that communion deepens longing. It doesn't retire it. As we connect with God in the temple, as we connect with God in the saccharine meetings, this should only strengthen and fortify our worship, our trusting in God. And then point three here, better than life. This is a bold claim. If you think about it, he says, because thy loving kindness is better than life, my lips shall praise thee. I love that quote by Joseph Smith. He says, could you gaze into heaven five minutes? You would know more than you would by reading all that was ever written on the subject. The five minutes of seeing heaven reorders all our values. If we really

understand God's loving kindness, we should value it more than anything than life itself. Now, some people say, well, what does that mean? Well, God wants to preserve our lives. So by love, loving God, then we're getting a life with Him that preserves us in eternal, the abundant life. The extremes of people go, we see people are marty for the faith. They're willing to give up their own life because they've had this sacred encounter. They know God. Most of us aren't going to have to do that. But that's people who have been really caught up in this trance like Joseph Smith as far as gazing into heaven. Stills the soul and aims the soul. And that gets at that idea that rightly ordered love is always going to be done in and toward God. Augustine, this is where I think he's brilliant.

St. Augustine was perplexed by how can I love God with all my heart, soul, mind, and might, and have anything left over for anything less than God. The way that he can figure this is, we love everything in and toward God. In fact, Catholic theologians go so far to say that any instance of love needs to be properly suspended and connected to God. So, you can say, on one hand, I love ice cream, and make sure you love ice cream appropriate to the kind of creaturely good that it is. So I don't love ice cream the same way I love my dog. I don't love my dog the same way I love my spouse, and I don't love my spouse in the exact same way I love God. But God is the purpose. Everything is loved in and toward him. All earthly penultimate goods should be

loved properly in relation to God. And that's why we need to cultivate these thirst in the right directions so that they're aimed ultimately towards God as our object of adoration and love. The Book of Mormon, Enos says, my soul hungered. It's so embodied. Again, another witness to the thing that I discovered as I read the Book of Mormon, I just started seeing that it places a premium on our materiality. Theologically, we talk about the scandal of the incarnation. God became man. In the restored gospel, there's even a bigger scandal. Jesus only became what was already true of the Father, he is fully embodied. He has flesh, he has bones, he has a face. Do you guys want another intertextuality thing here? Yeah, let's do it, let's do it.

Look at Psalm 63-5. In verse 5, my soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness. So my soul is satisfied with fatness. Now look at 2nd Nephine 9, verse 51, feast upon that which perisheth not, neither can be corrupted, and let your soul light in fatness. Wow. Second Nephi 951. It's not often you see that word, fatness. I know, I thought, this is one to put on your fridge.

Let your soul delight in fatness, right? Go for it. I'd never seen that until right now, but I know that's in Second Nephi. Good connection. That's awesome. All right, John, what should we do next? Look at in verses 4 through 6 of 63, notice what the body, does here. The body's being shaped. It's a performance or practice that's getting the body properly

aimed. It says hands lifted up, not grasping, mouth praising, not consuming, night thoughts meditating, not worrying. Every faculty is redirected from food, from wealth and worry to God. This is profound. These are daily habits. Even when I come to church, what am I doing with my body that's training me towards these right aims. I said I did my dissertation on John Paul II. He talks about that every human action has two directions. There's a transitive, there's something you're doing in the world. You're altering the world somehow.

I opened the door. That door wasn't opened before by me, so I did something. But it's always reflexive. Whenever I'm doing outwardly, reflexively is doing something to me inwardly. When I think about my daily habits, what am I doing outwardly that's shaping my character inwardly? This psalm is getting at this idea of very practical concrete.

When I lift my hands, when I open the door to help someone, not only my physically opening that door for them to get through, but it's shaping me to be more generous, more other-regarding, more kind. If we start to connect those dots, we start to see that God has given us ways and means here on earth to deepen his presence and his character in our lives. We need to become cognizant about the kinds of things. things that we practice.

Daily practice. Even just kneeling down for prayers, there's something different about that act. It's very small, but it's different than standing or laying in your bed. It's just a little different. Before you guys asked me to do the Psalms,

I made a conscious decision to start 2026 to do the morning, evening, prayers of the Psalms. When you asked me, I was in Psalm 128. thing. So I stopped because I wanted to go back and start preparing for this back in May, whenever he asked me. One of the first things I tried to do is before I put my feet on the ground to start my day, I would read a psalm. Sometimes I'd get on my knees too. I like this idea. One of this practice to say that God, you are, everything you have breath, praise the Lord,

the very breath that I'm going to use to pray these prayers. I just want to be cognizant that you sustain me through another night. I could have not woke up. And so just being conscious of God as the author and finisher of my physical body, but also the author and finisher of my spiritual direction too. And you're saying they're connected. What I do with my physical body affects my spiritual self. Absolutely. This is where John Paul II, once again, is brilliant that the body is a visible manifestation

of invisible realities. If we understand that, then what we're doing with our bodies, how is it working in concert with divine and spiritual truths? where does he say my arms are up? Verse four. I had written so much in verse five, it went over that in verse four. I noticed another reference like that

in Psalms 119, verse 48, my hands, also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved. I will meditate in thy statues. John, this might be outside of your expertise. I don't know, but the idea of I will lift up my hands, is that an ancient way of praying?

His hands up? Because we fold our arms, we bow, but it seems that in the Old Testament, they say that frequently with prayer. My hands will reach up. I know in the Episcopal tradition, when before they do the Eucharist, they say we lift up our hands and our hearts. They're oftentimes going back to the Psalms or going back to the ancient traditions. But you really see the point you're making is that you see the body as in full exercise in worship. If we're not careful, worship can be kind of disembodied. That's doing a disservice to the fact of how God has created us. Even when we die, we know that our body is separated from our soul. Paul says that's not natural. When the resurrection comes, we're getting those bodies back, a glorified body. God always intended

for us to be in a body-soul relationship. This is an analog to the fact that the father has a body too. We don't want to deny or suppress that. The body is a good thing when it's properly stewarded. When you first heard that doctrine of our theology, that was probably something you'd never heard before. When you look at some of the anti-LDS or Mormon literature, they take us the task on that. They pounded that one. Yeah, they do. Sometimes we're privileging, if we're not careful for the alternative view, somehow as if spirit is more important than matter. Most people believe in creation ex-nihilo. God is the only one is eternal. But I love it that we were all in this premortal relationship and this heavenly counsel. We're co-eternal. We're not

co-divine. We're co-eternal. We will evolve and become this participation in divine nature. You see that in Second Peter? The Greek church, you know, deification, I mean, for a lot of evangelical Protestant, that seems heretical. But even Lewis says that he became human so that we could become gods. We could become like God. I didn't have any problem with that once I started working through that. You know, a lot of this stuff, too, I was taught, for example, a premoral existence in my divinity courses, but they poo-pooed that and they talked about that that was seen as heretical by origin. But I remember mentally shelving. There's something there as far as God bringing into completion, but I didn't know what to do with it because

everyone around me, I would have definitely been seen as the minority view for sure. I've been probably the only person. But then I could go back and say, hey, I can get on board with this. I remember having this discussion with Janae at a conference that she was at not far from my house. I went down and visited in Salado, Texas. And we had this lengthy discussion about premortal existence. And I was convinced that it's true. It seems like it was just an ongoing unfolding of me getting new revelations to explain where there was questions that hadn't been answered. Yeah. Is that why ritual is so important? We think of baptism. It's a very tactile experience, the sacrament, the temple is the same way. It's clothing and ritual. Is that because we need to involve our bodies in our worship? Absolutely. That's

why I'm so excited about the temple because people know that I come from more of a high, they call it high church, high liturgy, and they're like, oh, you're going to love the temple. Again, I'm being prepared for this. It makes me want to cry and just like, this is amazing. Now I'm going to get, one can argue, the apex of this. I mean, this is a miniature form of what the new heaven and new earth will be, and is preparing me for this, to have these sacred encounters and expect to meet and know God in ways there that I don't know in an ordinary time. Yeah. It's important to have that body movement. I really appreciate that. Yeah, I really like the way you've put this because it's, well, why are you doing that little thing? Why are we passing

around trays of bread? Well, it's important for us to use our bodies in our worship. Why walk into this water and feel the water and go under the water? And it seems like it's a very feely, touchy experience. Yeah, I mean, think about all I can do is proxy baptisms, but those dead can't go into fleshly tabernacles. I can physically represent them in the here and now. See, the connection there to the body? Well, in Jesus and Third Nephi, right, one by one, physically, going to people. I had that hermeneutic, that interpretive grid from my dissertation,

and now it's just as like reified, amplified, blown up. As I come into the restored gospel. Yeah, there's probably lots of times. I knew it. I knew it. You I was right. John, this has blessed me. I think it's going to bless a lot of people

because they're seeing it through the eyes of somebody that has come from a different place. If I can speak for some of our audience, maybe I'm right. A lot of us are going, wow, I've always had this. I've taken this for granted. Hank, I'm writing down notes for my future classes, as I'm sure you are.

John, did you strain friendships? Did you lose friends? What kind of sacrifices did you make to be here today? After I was baptized in October of 2025, key events happened October forming. Not sure why the month of October other than just happened that way. October 2023 was when I got my first visible witness from Dr. Nelson. Then I was in a conference a year later, same conference where I'd met Dr. Nelson or Jenae, but is in New York City.

in advance, a team of us from Baylor and BYU were going to present some papers there. So I was joining a presentation with Dr. Nelson and one of her graduate students. Then some other Baylor folks were there too. But in advance, I said, hey, to Jeney and to Jody Jensen, I said, hey, we're going to be a few hours from this place called Palmyra and Sacred Grove.

I was wondering, I said, are you guys familiar with it? I was being genuine. They were real humble. They were like, yeah, we're familiar with it. I said, what would you both think if we road trip there after the conference is over? This is where I was starting to really, it was in the thick of my investigation. So I was like, I need to go there. Yeah, I need to learn about this firsthand.

They agreed that we would go. So we went to the sacrament meeting. This is where my conversion happened. Moroni, 10, 4, and 5. And at that time, I didn't realize that that's the missionary promise. That's like John 316. I heard someone give their testimony, and they cited those verses. And it really quickened my heart.

I was like, wow, that's a profound verse. And I hadn't read through the whole book of Mormon yet. Then when we ascended Hill Cymorah, we read it together. We read, I think we read most of Moranite 10, not just those verses. Then we got to the top, that inscription is on the angel Moronai statue. That's three times. Now, at that time, I was still Trinitarian, Father's Son, Holy Ghost. We still believe in the Godhead three personages.

So I was like, wow, that's three. That's an incredible witness. After the Sacred Grove, we went to the Grandin Press. And the senior missionary, I didn't even know if there was a senior missionary. The woman said to me, when we got to the second floor, there was Moroni, 10, 4, and 5 description. She goes, why don't you put your name in place of the yee and read it aloud? It was just a small group of us. I could barely get through it.

I started to weep. I started to cry. After that trip, I began to text and tell people I would put it in all caps, I believe. They knew what that meant. So I had converted. Then we decided with this fellowship that I'd gotten with Baylor University, the last segment of that fellowship to finish my responsibilities for the grant, was to come back in October and present a paper at the Book of Mormon Culture Conference.

I decided to get baptized on October 26, because that's what we were. when it's all started. So I got baptized. I now am teaching at an institution that doesn't allow tenured folks to be LDS. I'm in a difficult situation. I can continue here for a little bit longer with integrity and just not teach anything against the restored gospel or against Baylor. I was going to postpone my baptism. And Kim B. Clark mentored me. He really took me under his wing and started to encourage me. He would text me regularly. I met with him and Sue. We went to their ward. His son, Jonathan, was the bishop there, and we went to lunch to his house afterwards. I said, I just want to lay it out. I said, once I get baptized, I'm going to have to resign or get fired. Maybe I should postpone my

baptism. He goes, oh, no, do not postpone your baptism. Wow. This is just following through. He goes, basically, it's trust God on this. Here he was, former dean of the Harvard Business. He was. He was the former dean of the Harvard Business School. So even killed patience, his composure. He's believing the best and he's trusting God. And part of me is thinking it's easy for you to say that to me. You're not my shoes. Not your job. I decided to go forward and to be baptized. I came back home knowing that I had to make a decision. I knew I'd lose my job. I thought, well, I don't know where I'm going to work. So I started some conversation with people at BYU, then it looked like months later that there's going to be a position for me. I go to this annual conference called the Academy of American Religion and Society of Biblical

literature. I have a good group of friends. We're talking best friends. They know everything, and I tell them pretty much everything. They knew I was working, going back and forth BYU, and they were really excited for me. The last night before we fly home, the next day, we go out as a group. And they've seen that I'd stop drinking. I mean, this group would like to go to pubs. They've seen these outward changes of me. The Lord said, you're going to tell them tonight. I was like, I don't think I can tell them. I just, I don't think I can do it. This is going to be so hard. But I thought, if this is true that I need to testify, we'd finished dinner, and I hadn't told them yet, they were going to a pub. I remember the Lord saying, you better tell them earlier rather than later, because the more they drink,

the more contentious, or this could go in the wrong direction, sideways. We're walking to the pub and we see the old South church. They wanted to go inside, and God said to me, I remember this. It wasn't audible, but it was impression. He goes, sacred sight, this is where you're going to tell them. And so I was like, ugh, so we go inside. It's quiet. It was about ready to close.

We were in the chapel area, the sanctuary. I turned to them, I said, hey, guys, I got good news, and I got surprising news. I had to pitch it that way, right? The good news is, it looks like I'm leaving Baylor and going to BYU. I didn't sign a contract yet, so it's still by faith. I don't think God ever wanted me to convert, be baptized, knowing I had a job. He wanted to make sure this is full trust. He said, looks like I'm going to get hired by that.

And so they're like, looks like it. They're concerned for me, contractually, right? I haven't signed anything yet, but it's really looking promising. Then they looked at me real quick and they go, wait a minute. surprising news? I mean, they're logician. They knew. They're like, wait, you can't work at BYU. All things are at equal. There are exceptions unless you convert a baptize. And I say, well, the surprising news, I've converted them to baptize. I mean, the rest of the night, the rest of the night, I left the gathering at about 1015, 1030, because I knew they were going to continue drinking

and usually not much happens good after 10, 10, 1030 to begin wet at the night at a pub. Next day I saw, I said, what did you guys talk about? Like, what do you think we talked about? So this is getting at some of the opposition. My best friend, a renowned scholar, on Saturday or Sunday, I get a text from, hey, are you available next Tuesday? I'd love to get together. I waited 24 hours before I applied to that.

We got together and met for an hour, and it was opposition. It was challenge. It was, why are you doing this? Why can't you postpone it? You could lose your family over this. I mean, all these reasons you shouldn't, all these objections. This could hurt you as far as occupation. You already have tenure.

You're going to start all over. The Academic Guild, but you could be seen as an outcast. By the end of it, he said, I'm not going to change your mind. Am I? And I go, nope, he goes, I didn't think I would. What that meant, though, is that that was some opposition, some good friends. Then after I left, they're asking all kinds of questions. They're like, was he converted when he was here?

we heard you've been baptized. In my letter of resignation, I just made it clear. I said, you need to know, I fully affirm the mission values of BYU and the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints. That was my way of saying, hey, I've one of them. It's just been some awkwardness. People have talked to other people, but if they're really my friends, why don't they come to me and talk to me? That's what's been hurtful about this whole process. I've been lonely at times. I know that I've done the right thing, but just a modicum of definitely persecution. I've heard some stuff that's just is absolutely not true. It's like, what? Why would you say that? Come talk to me. That's a long answer to your question. Wow, thank you for sharing that.

Baila's been good to me. I'm not leaving and hate. I'm just being candid with you all. Nothing but respect for you, John. Holy cow. What a leap of faith. It's beautiful. It's that promise obligation. I look at the beauty and grace of the promise of restored gospel. I have to. It's necessary. Yeah. So what else mattered?

For me not to do it is sin. Yeah. I know what I know. Now, we don't want to let you go without walking us through a few more Psalms. What should we do now? Let's go to Psalm 85 and 86. We already talked about Psalm 78, where it's since in the center of the Psalter,

about the compassion and forgave their iniquity. So let's turn to Psalm 85, and this is a great phrase. We see a parallelism here. We see where mercy and truth kiss. I like this because we see God's attributes. We see steadfast love, faithfulness, righteousness, and peace. They're not in competition. They converge and really guaranteeing a restoration already begun.

It's already here in the very person and presence, and it's near at hand through Jesus, but we await for his second return. turn. There's kind of this dialectic, this tension. You even see it in these different attributes. And so let me just read this real quick. It says, mercy and truth are met together, and then righteousness and peace have kissed each other. I love how he uses this to show that these virtues are not pitted against each other. Shalom or peace isn't the absence of conflict, but flourishing in a right relationship. Justice is one of those necessary conditions. If things

are really going as God intended, you'll find yourself in equitable relationships. There's been a failure sometimes in Christian communities where we've divorced these attributes. Justice is filing for separation from mercy. Psalm 85 shows that there needs to be this reconciliation. You see this in Alma. is it chapter 42. He performs this wedding ceremony between justice and mercy. It's called the atonement. That's what brings justice and mercy together. As an ethicist, it's easy to fight for righteousness and a private morality. We live our lives upstanding with integrity, but there's no gospel without social justice too. And this is where I think Zion is so important, that we dwell in righteousness, we have responsibility to the poor and we're one heart and one

mind. These attributes, they don't compete against each other, that the kingdom of God embraces both of these. We want instances of Zion. This is important because the evangelical background that I came out of, oftentimes the gospel that was preached, peddled, and proclaimed was oftentimes for my personal salvation, which it is. You become so heavenly-minded, no earthly good. Those who are most heavenly-minded are the most earthly good. You talk about some of the greatest prophets, Martin Luther King Jr., is because he, understood, had a big enough hope of these attributes staying together that he was disgruntled, dismayed when he didn't see it happening here on Earth. A proper prophetic anger when you see an injustice because you know that's not what God

intended. We should be unhappy with that, dismayed with that, frustrated with that, because it's frustrating God's cosmic order and purpose in the gospel flourishing here on Earth. That's a beautiful idea. that there's a future Zion coming, but let's build Zion now to the degree that we can. Well, and we pray the prayer in the Lord's Prayer. Your will done on earth as it is in heaven. Your justice, your truth, your mercy, your loving kindness, done here on earth as it is in heaven. It'll always be imperfect, it'll be impartial, but we don't give up. We should still be striving for it.

There's one of our hymns, how great, how glorious, how complete, redemption's grand design, where justice, love, and mercy meet in harmony divine. What's the name of it? That's beautiful. It's called How Great the Wisdom and the Love. It's a sacrament hymn, isn't it, usually? It's a sacrament hymn, yeah. It was actually a talk from Elder Holland.

It's called Where Justice, Love, and Mercy meet. It's a great line, isn't it? And they kiss, according to Psalms here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're not fighting. outdoing each other. The physicality of that. It's a metaphor, but literally

that there's this organic union, communion between the two. Yeah. They're joining. What do you make of verse 11, John? When you see that, does it remind you of anything, the first phrase there?

Truth shall spring out of the earth. That's a restoration phrase as well, isn't it? The Lord speaks peace to his people. Truth shall spring out of the earth, in parentheses the Book of Mormon. Isn't it the Book of Moses, John? Truth will I send forth out of the earth? Some intertextuality.

It's my new word for the day. Moses 762. Righteousness will I send down out of heaven and truth will I send out of the earth to bear testimony of mine only begotten. And I've seen that baby as revelation coming down, book of Mormon coming out of the earth. I will cause to sweep the earth as a flood.

To gather out mine elect, I think it says John White in there, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth. I love that you brought up Zion. Zion in the early days was thought to be a place and then more like a cause. When the Lord introduces it, he does it really slowly with Joseph. The cause of Zion. Oh, it's a cause?

Yeah, it's also a people. It's also a place. It's all of a sudden an entire movement. If you would have been in the early church, the 1830s church, Zion was a place. Yeah, it was a place and it was their point. You don't hear a lot in the church today, but it was a place. We are going to build Zion on the earth. Now we build stakes of Zion, trying to become Zion.

Well, I love that. It's both spiritual and literal. That's not reducible to one or the other. So some people want to build utopia here, heaven on earth, but we want to make sure we're doing it spiritually, that those are meant to be incongruence. I love that. What the early saints learn is that its buildings are easier than people.

John likes to say when they brought the children of visual out of Egypt, it was easy to get them out of Egypt. It was difficult to get Egypt out of them. Yeah, that's an old saying. It's not mine. Yeah, there's still a lot of Egypt in me. I'm just glad, John, that when you showed up at some sacrament meetings, you were welcomed and embraced. When I hear people tell that story, I'm like, oh, I hope, I hope, I hope everybody was just like, hi, how are you?

Welcome, what's your name? Because as John, as you know, it's not always the case that when someone asks me, are Latter-day Saints Christian, I say, oh, hopefully, most days. I hope they're acting like it, yeah. most the time. Well, my first sacrament meeting, though, it was interesting, the mics didn't work. The bread wasn't there. The bread wasn't there.

Oh, no. I mean, from all hourly purposes, it seemed like a train wreck. But then the spirit showed up when we sang, is it, I will walk with Jesus? Oh, wow. We sang that at my baptism,

along with Be Thou my vision. That's when I really felt the spirit was when we saying that. I hadn't been converted yet. this was, and it was a very meaningful experience for me. I think it's Robert Miller talks about that our gospel doesn't need any props. Even though those things had been kicked out from underneath in my first sacramane experience, the Lord showed up.

The Lord proved himself and presented himself to me. Psalm 86. This is Unite My Heart. I like the movements here. Verse 1 through 7, there's this petition from poverty, for I am poor and needy. Then verse 8 to 10, there's this incomparability among the gods. There is none like unto thee.

And then verse 11 through 13, this is the center. Teach me. Unite my heart. So here we have a wholehearted praise. Deliver me from Shul. 1417 and then a renewed plea as far as God's own creed, my Lord, thy servant. You see that seven times my Lord and thy servant three times.

My first point here is notice how in verse 15, I praise God's self-description of who he is back to him. But thou, O Lord, are to God full of compassion and gracious, long-suffering

and plenteous in mercy and truth. What I see here is prayer is not based on one's personal faith alone, but on the ancient and continuing confessions of the whole community. The whole community is joining in this. And so I think it's really important that there's this community orientation. And then in verse two, he says,

and you are my God answers that electing word, I am the Lord your God. And it's only answered, if one dare to say, my God. You have to say my God. You have to entrust yourself to be able to say, my God, that you belong. That's powerful language you see in the Psalms over and over, my God by David. So this gets at this personal relationship. And I like a rare petition here in verse 11, teach me thy way, O Lord. I will walk in thy truth. Unite my heart to fear thy name. One of my hopes for this whole time together is that these texts would become our prayers and that for listeners, they may feel that somehow maybe God is repelled by their brokenness, by their doubt, by their despair, even by their unbelief. People push back and say, why is unbelief?

and doubt so often in the Psalms, I think it's important because God recognizes that these are periods who may go through, and he's catechized them for us. He's put them in there to know that it's okay to doubt. This is a part of your journey. The problem is if you run from God instead of a place to actually entrust yourself to God, to actually call upon him in your despair. My hope is that we would recognize that God stands ready to hear his joy and gladness. from Psalm 51. We can then testify, teach, and live to this plan of the good news of happiness.

One of my teaching assistants, her name's Danica Nusink. She wrote a paper on Nephi towards the end of his writing, switching from talking about Jesus to this, I glory in truth, I glory in my Jesus. Hmm.

that something happens from he's the communities and he's my Jesus. Yeah, that's really good. I'm really impressed by the students at BYU. There's this a level of maturity. If you have to go out for two years as a male or 18 months as a female, that's a significant commitment. You have to grow up pretty quickly. John's on his sixth child heading out on a mission.

My daughter's going to France. I'm like, whoa! Lione, France. mission, which is really fun because her oldest sister went there too. Oh, wow. On this last point as far as Psalm 8611, I really see that this is kind of a form of if you're uniting your heart, fearing him a form of consecration. We surrender. I'm in the Maxwell Institute, so I've been reading as much as I can about Neil Maxwell. In fact, I'm finishing his biography. Quite a guy, Elder Maxwell, I want to write a book on his discipleship ethic.

I see so much in what he's doing. He loves CS Lewis too, like me. Yeah, he did. He has a phrase that he uses in one of his talks, is consecration is the only surrender. He's talking about the mind being surrendered, which is also a victory. I love that.

It's a paradox. Normally, when you surrender, you think, oh. A surrender and a victory at the same time. Exactly, but it's because it's consecrated, it's set apart for God, and that's a victory. Verse 13 says, for great is thy mercy toward me, thou has delivered my soul from the lowest hell. So that brings us back full circle to where I started, that this is where we see the deliverance, the answer to the ransom. It's God's mercy.

We see that that stands central to this whole section of Psalms we've been looking at. John, this has been fantastic. We have walked through so many Psalms, and you've told us of your experiences joining the church. and I think all of our listeners would say welcome. I loved when you would say we. You are part of this. You're in. Amen.

We do have quite a few listeners out there, and we want to thank everyone for continuing to listen. What's your message to them, to our listeners, as a new member of the church, but as a well-studied theologian? That's a great question. one is keep God as your highest good. It's easy to allow the things of this world

to militate against, to challenge, to conflict with. We can do it in such subtle ways. I started off with this idea that is really our view of God, that determines our view of self. So if we have a comprehension or misunderstanding about God, let's try to figure that out. Don't opt for easy answers because the culture may be saying and questioning that knowledge of God. So stay in it, read the Psalms. The Psalms give us the language.

Think about a little child. A child has to be taught how to talk by the parents. And so the Heavenly Father has given us the language of how to talk to him with raw emotions, how to express our grief, our sorrow. As we said, it's an anatomy of the soul. It mirrors the soul. These are sacred texts that should be a part of your regimen, of your spiritual diet and disciplines and practices.

But let's continue to trust in God, and our trust in God is in direct correspondence to our view of God. When we teach this to student-athletes, adolescence, we know there's this prevalent view. It's called moralistic. therapeutic deism out there. That God is just a moralistic God.

He just expects you to do good, be a do-gooder. He's just really here to meet your needs, the vending machine metaphor that we gave earlier. Deism, that God has got this world going and the so holy other that he's not involved in the near and present and eminence of your life.

That's a flawed view of God. We have a God who is intimately involved, so much so that his own son came here to suffer for it. us and identify with us. He's a God who weeps. Even in the Psalms, we see echoes of Moses 7, as far as the God who weeps. We see a God who has emotions, a God who actually feels for us. If you're brokenhearted, guess what? God is brokenhearted. If you are in despair, he's a good father. He wants to talk to you. Come and talk to him. The Psalms give us that invitation.

give us that culture to shape us and how we think about God. And therefore, once we think correctly about God, then we think well about ourselves and other people. It's wonderful. We love that you're a part of this church, John. I love being a part of this church. Yeah. We need to talk to you again after you go through the temple.

When someone joins the church, I like John, and we have hundreds of thousands that do, there's an energy that comes, an energy and an excitement. If you felt to sing the song of redeeming love, can you feel so now? Thank you, John, Dr. White. Thank you for spending your day with us. We first heard of you back when we were talking about the book of Heelman. Who would have thought then when Jinnay said,

hey, I ran this by a friend of mine, that that friend would now be on the show. Two years later, I just think, what a beautiful story. With that, we want to thank Dr. John White for joining us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode. We remember our founder. He had that same excitement for the gospel, John as you, Steve Sorensen. We hope you'll join us next week.

We've got more of the Psalms to cover on Follow Him. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.com, that's followhom.co, to download your free copy today, and you'll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our Follow Him family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Crystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow Amelia Kub wika, Sidney Smith, and Annabelle Sorensen.

Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.