followHIM - Revelation 1-5 Part 2 • Dr. Nick Frederick • Dec 4 - Dec 10

Episode Date: November 29, 2023

Dr. Nicholas Frederick continues to explore the themes in Revelation 1-5, including keys to understanding the role of Jesus Christ and the key to peace in a tumultuous book of scripture and a chaotic world.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-41-52/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056YouTube: https://youtu.be/dVZfo9jRJRAInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYPlease rate and review the podcast!00:00 Part II–Dr. Nicholas Frederick00:07 Sardis03:36 Philadelphia07:46 Laodicea12:10 How to overcome12:47 Teaching apocalyptic to younger audiences14:46 Trust in God17:08 John 1-3 necessary for John 4-519:12 John 4: Centrality and respecting God21:07 A throne in Heaven23:27 The number twelve and a sea of glass27:03 Four beasts and Four Horseman30:00 The Apocalyptic Genre33:11 Animals and pets in the eternities34:57 Descriptions of the beasts37:37 Jesus’s position next to the Father40:11 Who has the authority to break the seals?44:03 The Lion and the Lamb47:57 The book, expectation, and perception51:40 Jesus is worthy to open the seals and pronounce judgment56:11 Review of Revelation 1-5 and what comes next58:45 Symbolism and the Big Picture01:02:04 The Lamb moves to behind the scenes01:04:42 Main takeaway from Revelation01:07:16 End of Part II– Dr. Nicholas FrederickThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Welcome to part two with Dr. Nick Frederick, Revelation chapters one through five. So there's the first four churches in chapter two. Chapter three, we're going to get the last. So these final three churches. The first church is the church at Sardis. And here's what John says, these things saith he that hath the seven spirits of God, kind of these angelic attendants that we saw in previous chapters, the seven stars, the angels that oversee these churches. I know thy works. Thou hast a name that thou livest and are dead. My guess is something like they appear to be faithful, yet they persist in sin. Perhaps something like that.

This church is going to have a specific problem with complacency. Seems to be their issue. Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain that are ready to die. In other words, raise your game. You've got to take it up a notch here. You're getting complacent. You're getting comfortable all is well in Zion. And that's not how I need my disciples to live.

Verse 4, thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments. And this image of garment again. Defiled garments seem to symbolize sin. Our cleansed garments seem to represent the atonement. They shall walk with me in white for they are worthy because they resisted sin. Then that clothing imagery continues in verse 5. He that overcome, the promise is they shall be clothed in white raiment. Your clothes right now that are defiled are going to be made white in the blood of the Lamb. I will not blot out or condemn their name out of the book of life. Think of the book of life as

something like a census for the new Jerusalem. If you want to be included amongst the community in the new Jerusalem, your name gets put in a book. Perhaps what we see in Exodus where Moses says in Exodus 32, don't blot me. I pray thee out of thy book, which that was written. Don't take my name off the census,

so to speak. Okay. Don't boot me out of the community. Keep me on the roster. Yeah, exactly. Keep me on the roll. And then notice this. I will confess his name.

I will affirm that we have a relationship. Instead of blotting it out, I will confirm it before my father and before his angels. And those that are struggling with, I don't know if I should fully commit or not. I'm becoming a little bit complacent in the world. The promise here is if you're willing to go that extra mile, raise your game, do what you need to do as a disciple, the reward will be, I'll have your back. I'll be right there. I'll make sure your name gets put on the rolls. I will confess your name before the father. I like that imagery that thou hast the name that thou livest and art dead. It's you look like you're doing the right things, but it really hasn't happened for you internally.

Exactly. Going back to Alma 5, there's that step, that transformation that has to happen with discipleship. And this church hasn't made that leap yet. These are applicable. Even though he's not writing to us, I can see myself in pieces of these congregations. These are problems in any dispensation. You're going to have churches, you're going to have

communities that are going to struggle with things like complacency, things like accommodation, things like leaders who might be taking you one direction rather than another. Who do I listen to in a world where I'm getting a lot of different voices and a lot of different suggestions? How do I phase out the rest of it? I mostly see myself in Smyrna where they're doing really well. Or the next one. Actually, Philadelphia might be more up your alley. Okay, let's go there.

Our sixth church right here. Verse seven. To the angel of the church in Philadelphia. These things saith he that is holy, he that is true. This is fascinating. He that hath the key of David, he that openeth and no man shutteth, and shutteth and no man openeth. That's fascinating. If you remember from Isaiah 22, we get this interesting scene where a fellow gets fired from his job as essentially as a steward to the king and he gets replaced by

Eliakim the son of Hilkiah this is Isaiah 22 this about verses 20 to 23 this is what the key of David is as far as we can tell another old testament allusion he says I will clothe him with thy robe strengthen him with thy girdle I will commit thy government into his hand. He shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah. And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder. So he shall open and none shall shut. He shall shut and none shall open. I will fasten him as a nail in a sure place. And he shall be for a glorious throne to his father's house. So that's the promise here that's made. I'll give you the key of David.

Essentially, it seems to me at least to be something akin to the sealing power that Peter gets in Matthew 16, seal on earth and seal in heaven. But this image of a nail in a sure place is the image of a tent peg. You put a tent peg in the ground and it keeps the tent in place. And he says, that's what he will be since he has the key of David. In other words, as it applies to Jesus, Jesus controls who has access to the father. And what I will do for those of you like the people in Philadelphia, I will make sure you have that access to the father. You'll have the key of David. You'll get in the door.

It's fantastic. Yeah, I do feel like that's more me. Thank you for pointing that out. Yeah, sure. I was able to kind of reinforce some of that for you. Then verse 8, I know thy works. Behold, I have set before thee an open door and this access to God. You've got it.

No man can shut it. For thou hast a little strength and thou hast kept my word and hast not denied my name. Verse 9, they do have some tribulation here. I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet to know that I have loved thee. You are my people. I will make that public. I'll make that demonstrable that you're the ones that I have chosen. Verse 10, because thou has kept the word of my patience. We would say something like endure to the end. Here, you've endured to the end. I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation,

which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth, the day of the Lord. Think Joel chapter two. Behold, I come quickly. Hold that fast, which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. The laurel wreaths, they've won the competition. They've got the laurel wreaths. Notice what they're promised in verse 12. Him that overcome will I make a pillar in the temple of my God. I'll make you a permanent member in my house and he shall go no more out. I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God. It was typical in pagan temples that you would write down the name of the donors on the pillars of the temple, the ones who donated the money to build the temple. And see, as Jesus is essentially saying, that's what I'll do for you. In my Father's temple, I will inscribe your name on that pillar.

And to those in Philadelphia, that's what they're promised. Fantastic. I think I will write upon him the name of my God. I think of a book or my kids with their toys it's mine i'm gonna write my name on it yeah yeah and i think that's the idea i'll claim you as mine you can see the difference you can see the difference between how the lord writes the people in philadelphia who have overcome those things who are being loyal disciples who haven't let complacency or accommodation settle in versus those who are still struggling.

Yeah. Nick, wouldn't it be interesting to be part of these letters and to hear how everyone else is doing, right? Yeah. You're like, oh no. That's actually going to appear here. It's interesting that you bring that up because it actually occurs, seems to occur at least here with the church in Laodicea.

But he says in verse 14, because this is the most accommodating church. This is one of the churches, this is the opposite of Philadelphia. This church is being very accommodating. So verse 15, I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot. I would thou wert cold or hot. Understand both of these, by the way, as positives. Both cold and hot are positive things here. He's like, I wish you were one or the other. Verse 16, so then because thou

art lukewarm and neither cold nor hot, I will spew, I will vomit thee out of my mouth. Hot beverages, cold beverages have their purpose. You can bathe in hot water, you can drink cold beverages, but something that's tepid, tepid water is pretty useless. Sometimes I hear that people say that means the church is the middle of the road because they're in between. That's not the case here. It means completely out of fellowship. Pick hot, pick cold, do something to get yourself back into fellowship. You are as far out of fellowship as you can be. And the image we're going to use there is tepid, lukewarm water that you want to vomit if you drink it. I can have hot chocolate, which is good.

I can have a cold ice water, which is good. But a lukewarm drink is. It serves no purpose. So the application, Nick, I could take is be useful. Yes. It's a good way to put it because hot or cold are useful yeah exactly verse 17 because thou sayest i am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing and knowest not that thou art wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked this is echoes of king benjamin here right yeah that's i'm sorry I'm laughing, but that's a funny verse.

They've embraced the lifestyle of the elite, and they think they've become that elite. Here's where we get the reference I made to Hank, what the reaction would be from the other churches. He says in verse 18, I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white raiment, that thou may mayest be cold and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear do these things so that no one has to know how bad you've actually been and what happens for 2 000 years the shame of laodicea has been preserved in the bible we do actually literally get to see the shame of their nakedness the other churches would have read this and said i'm really glad i'm not laodicea. Anoint thine eyes with eyesalve that thou mayest see, right? Take pride in being my disciples. Be hot or cold. Being out of fellowship doesn't work. As many as I love, I rebuke and

chasten. Be zealous, therefore, and repent. If you've got some problems. I'm going to call them out. I'm going to chasten you, but repent and be hot or cold. And if you do, verse 20, I stand at the door and knock. I'm waiting for you. I'm still here. I haven't gone anywhere. I'm still here. If any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come unto him and will sup with him and he with me. And the invitation to a special, intimate relationship, having a banquet together, echoes of the Messianic banquet that Isaiah talks about that we'll see later on in the book of Revelation. What's the promise here? Verse 21, to him that overcome will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame and am set down with my father in his throne. I like the connection here. In chapter one, I'm going to make you kings and queens, priests and priestesses. And then when you get in chapters two and three, you get all these images of kingship,

all these images of priesthood, pillar in my temple, white raiment, like the priests are going to wear, sit on my throne, a crown of righteousness, like a king. All those images can be tied into images of kingship and priesthood. You read that and say, that sounds great. I would love to be a part of that. I would love to be a pillar in God's temple. I would love to sit on God's throne. What do I need to do? Well, to him that overcome. What's the next logical question? Overcome what? Yeah, what does it mean to overcome? Yeah, yeah.

And so John says, I'm glad you asked. Let me tell you about a vision I had that will show you how to overcome. I'll identify Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I'll tell you how to find Zion. And I'll identify Satan and the forces of evil and I'll tell you where Babylon's at and the things you need to avoid

so that you can overcome and find yourself in the new Jerusalem. So chapters 4 through 21 answer the question, what do I need to do to get these blessings to them that overcome? What does that mean?

Exactly. Could I go back to Revelation 3.20 for a minute? I'm thinking that some of our moms and dads out there with kids that are trying to figure out how they're going to explain what apocalyptic is to a three-year-old. But Revelation 3.20, we had this painting in our house growing up, and the Come Follow Me manual actually has that reprinted or a similar one with Jesus standing at the door knocking. And I can still remember being very young and my dad walking me over to that painting and saying, John, what's different about the door? I'm like, it's wood. I don't know. And him saying, no, did you notice there's no handle?

Oh, why is that? And he said, you have to open it from the inside. And I just, I still remember that. I think that might be a fun thing to share with the kids. This idea that he is so ready and willing to come in, but you have to open the door if you want him to come in. Especially for a church like this, that's struggling with commitment. Jesus is saying,

I'm not going to break down the door and drag you to dinner. What I want is for you to invite me to dinner. I want you to want to be my disciple. It's not behold, I bust down the door and force you to do it my way. It's not that it's I'm here, but you have to open the door. Yeah, exactly.

That's nice insight. This last one is the only one that said, I am rich. I have need of nothing. And they're blind. It sounds like he says you're blind to the fact that you're in a really bad place. Oh, I love it says, and thou knowest not. It's like you're completely unaware that actually you're wretched, miserable, poor, you think if you were that you would know it but it doesn't doesn't leave much left out there yeah so i'm thinking that's a very second nephi nine to all's well in zion no i'm

good everything's fine but you don't really realize you're in bad shape right here yeah once we started thinking that we have something over others. I see a lot of King Benjamin. Are we not all beggars? Nick, could I take from chapters two and three as something that's not said, but maybe implied that the Lord knows us as individuals? He knows these individual congregations. Instead of talking to everybody all at once, he said, look, I know your personal struggles. Is that kind of an unsaid message? Are you okay with that? I'd say absolutely. I think a lot of what the book of Revelation is trying to do is convince somebody that they can put their trust in God and put their trust in Jesus rather than put their trust in the emperor.

Where are you going to put your faith? And what you're seeing here is that not only is God powerful, but yeah, there's this intimacy as well. God understands each of us. He knows these congregations. He knows their strengths and their weaknesses. And it's not like there's just seven congregations. There's dozens, if not hundreds of congregations right at the end of the first century. And the idea is that God knows them all. And the idea today is that thousands, if not 10,000s of congregations, and my guess is we could each get an individualized letter from God telling you, I know your congregation. I know what you're struggling with. I know what you're doing well.

And you could push that even further. Each family could get a letter from God saying, I know what your struggles are. I know what you're trying to overcome. I really appreciate all the good things you're trying to do. Here's what I'd like you to keep in mind. The book of Revelation wants you to understand God, in a sense, as someone who gets you and understands you and is therefore worthy of your trust. That's fantastic. I think any of us could sit down and say, what would God write to me? I think we're aware.

I need to do this better. I need to do this better. To actually get one from God, that would be sobering I need to do this better. I need to do this better. And to actually get one from God, that would be sobering, wouldn't it? I don't know if I'd want one or not. Yeah, me too. And to all of our listeners in Philadelphia, if we have any, you're doing great. You're doing great. City of brotherly love there. You're doing awesome. So Nick, I like what you've done here. You You said, OK, he's written to these seven churches. And here's now chapters four through 21.

Here's what it means to overcome. So I don't have to get caught up too much in the individual dragon, the woman. I can look for that meaning throughout the whole text, right, of overcoming good, overcoming evil and how I want to, which side I want to be on. That's how I read it. Like I said, I tend to align myself more with the idealist perspective that what you get in the book of Revelation is a, a how to overcome for every dispensation. There are just some truths that exist no matter when you live. And the book of Revelation is trying to talk to all those audiences at the same time. That's how I interpret it,

but it doesn't mean that the dragon and the two beasts refer to more specific things, that they don't have specific comparisons with something with the Roman empire, right? This is always the trick. When you deal with Revelation 6 and you start opening these six seals, you start saying, well, who's this white horseman? Is this an actual figure in history? Is this somebody from John's time period? Is this somebody who's going to be in the future? Or does white just mean conquest? of these steps as you work your way through the book of revelation as i read it yes that's how i would read it is how you describe it there i wouldn't say that's the best way or the only way

it's one of many ways but it's the way i'm comfortable with yeah that's how i would i would read it as well as this seems that the first three chapters have been centered on christ so don't lose that center as you continue through the book. Yeah, one of the mistakes I see people make is they want to jump straight to chapter four because that's where the vision actually starts. A door opens in heaven. That's where we start to get the cool and crazy imagery. And so we skip these first three chapters.

But to me, these first three chapters are the thesis statement for the book. I made you kings and priests. Here's what you'll get, right? For those of you who are able to overcome, you'll be able to inherit and receive these blessings. Now here's a lesson on how to overcome. But if you skip these first three chapters, it becomes a vision without an anchor, without a final purpose to it. Those first three chapters, I think, are pivotal.

All right. We have you for a couple more chapters so let's not let you go just yet chapters four and five are the beginning of the what you said this vision yeah chapter four is about centrality i mean roman jerusalem we're typically seen as the centers of the world so what the book of revelation is going to do is it's going to realign that. It's going to realign for you where the center really is. And the center of the universe is going to be God's throne. We're transitioning from the prophecies in these last two chapters into this much more broad perspective. Instead of one church that exists somewhere in Asia Minor, the church at Smyrna, we're now going to pull back and look at the big picture. And we're going to start at the center of the big picture, which is God's throne room. If you have to see John's audience, the first century audience would be intimately

familiar with pagan temples. They'd be intimately familiar with the images of pagan gods. There'd be a natural response would be to be in awe of temples, to be in awe of gods. Chapter four is going to show us that true awe, true respect belongs to Heavenly Father. That he is more worthy, he is more deserving of your love, your respect, your honor than the gods and the temples that you may be used to seeing and may have at some point in your life worshipped. I'm trying to convince you of where the true source of your devotion should come from. I'm going to do that by pulling back the veil and taking you to the heart, which is God's throne room. This is the right place to start.

Book of Mormon starts the exact same way. Lehi finds himself in God's throne room. This is the right place to start. Book of Mormon starts the exact same way. Lehi finds himself in God's throne room. So there's a lot of parallels here between Ezekiel 1 and Revelation 4. Maybe before you jump into Revelation 4, you may want to start with a quick review of Ezekiel 1 so you can see some of the images that John is going to use. some cases similar, in some cases different ways, here in chapter 4. So, the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking to me, which takes us back to Revelation 1, where you saw how the Lord Jesus Christ was introduced, which said, Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter. The question of time. When is this stuff going to happen?

And immediately I was in the spirit. What does this mean? This reminds me of Paul in 2 Corinthians 12, where he's talking about his vision of the third heaven, whether in the body or out of the body, right? I cannot tell. Joseph says the same thing in D&C 137. He has this vision in January of 1836. He says, whether in the body or out of the body, I cannot tell. Joseph says the same thing in D&C 137. He has this vision in January of 1836. He says,

whether in the body or out of the body, I cannot tell. So is this just a shift in location, a shift in perspective? Is there something else that's happening here? But he says, I was in the spirit. And behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. Again, pretty typical for Old Testament visions. Think Isaiah 6, Ezekiel, Daniel. And you'll notice that we don't see God described in human characteristics, but in very ways that preserve God's transcendence. That seems to be the theme here. God is not just another human being like the emperor.

I'm not going to describe him in human terms. I want to preserve or maintain or promote the transcendence of God. We'll see that in the imagery John is going to use to describe him. You don't want to take it literally. What we're doing is using symbolism to promote transcendence. Verse three, he that sat was to look upon like a jasper, which is a green stone, and a sardine, which is a red stone. And there was a rainbow, much like Ezekiel, round about the throne in sight like unto an emerald. Probably what's meant here is not that there's a rainbow like of seven different colors, but a halo of a greenish color like a green halo surrounded

his throne okay an emerald rainbow but a lot of times i'll see the like a picture is like there's actually literally a rainbow there or something like that it's probably more of an emerald halo is what he means the niv says and the one who sat there had the appearance of jasper and ruby and a rainbow that shone like an emerald encircled the throne rainbow more as a bow of light rather than seven different colors or something like that and round about the throne were four and 20 seats so here we get into numbers significance of 24 well it's two times 12 what What is 12 symbolic of? Tribes. Tribes of Israel.

Apostles. It seems to be a number that is used to describe or symbolize Israel. God's people in some capacity. And here there's two sets of them. So are we talking about 12 tribes and 12 apostles? Old Israel and New Israel come together. We know that in Judaism, there were 24 orders of priests, of which Zacharias was one of those orders. Do we have that priestly imagery here again? These are priests in the presence of God. Numbers could be taken a number of different

ways. Clothed in white raiment. We've seen this theme of white raiment, perhaps referenced priests. They had on their heads crowns of gold. So there's something regal. They are kings and priests. It's like we were promised in chapter one, verse six, that Jesus made us kings and priests. So in a way, these 24 elders seem to represent the future state of the believers. Those of you who overcome can become like these people right here, clothed in white raiment with crowns upon their head, because they are part of Israel. You could look at it as something like that. The symbols could go a number of different ways, but that's one that seems to make sense to me.

Verse five, out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunders and voices these symbols of divine power right things that happen in heavens remember prophecy stuff that happens on earth apocalyptic is stuff that happens in heaven so we're looking at things from a heavenly perspective so things like lightning and thunder and voices seven lamps of fire burning before the throne right which are the seven spirits of God, all these images signifying God's majesty here. Then verse six, before the throne, there was a sea of glass like unto crystal, probably a reference to the firmament, this clear case or covering that separates the waters of the creation. ezekiel one the likeness of the

firmament upon the heads of living creatures so we're still following up ezekiel here but their perspective is a heavenly one okay the firmament in heaven i've heard people refer to this as lake powell heavenly sea of glass on a summer morning when it's time to water. Why not? It is quite pretty. Why not? Yeah. And it's like emerald at Lake Powell too. Yeah. Yeah.

That's, that's the beauty of symbols is we can make them mean whatever we want them to mean. That's right. If we want this to be Lake Powell, the throne could be a boat. I don't like Powell. There you go. He was on a houseboat in Lake Powell. And the sea of glass just ready to be skied on you just have to be able to fit 24 people in there

i think we've gone off the rails that was a good example of how to go off the rail quickly how quickly it could happen so this sea of glass now are we talking about god the father here i think so so nick should i see this as here's God the Father and he's looking out over all creation, all his creation? There's nothing hidden from him? That makes sense to me. The sea of glass, the way Joseph describes this, right? We have Joseph giving us insight about this in D&C 130. Joseph says it is the earth in its sanctified, immortal, and eternal state.

So the idea there could be this is something that the immortal, sanctified earth God has a perfect knowledge of. Because he can see everything that's in front of him. That makes sense. I wonder from another perspective, we're supposed to see it as the firmament because we're in heaven. And the perspective of earth from heaven is we see the firmament that divides the waters. The waters from above the earth and the waters below. So it's a heavenly perspective, therefore it's a sea of glass. I think there's three or four really nice images that could emerge from that.

And in the midst of the throne and round about the throne were four beasts, literally living creatures. Four living creatures full of eyes before and behind. And what we'll see about these beasts, they will come to exemplify true worship. They will initiate the divine threats. They will be the ones who call the four horsemen. They will give the bulls to the angels. So these four beasts will have an important role to play in unfolding or as the events of the book of Revelation unfold. Then we're given a description in verse seven of these beasts. The first beast was like a lion. The second beast like a calf. The third beast had the face of a man. And the

fourth beast was like a flying eagle this follows ezekiel pretty closely except in ezekiel each of the four beasts had four different faces on them and here it's four separate beasts a lion a calf a man and an eagle and of course as so john is borrowing from ezekiel but changing things a little bit yeah that, that seems to be the case. And he'll do that a fair amount of times. He'll take the imagery, he'll adopt the imagery, and then he'll adapt it to more of a Christian purpose or of a Christ-centered purpose. Very rarely is he just taking something wholesale and just assigning it the same meaning it had in Ezekiel or Daniel. That's why you have to know what Ezekiel and Daniel are saying so you can see how John shifts it around,

how John makes alterations and changes and adds nuance to ambiguity rather than taking something wholesale. Of course, this is where the idea comes from, that each of our four evangelists are often represented with a specific animal. Matthew, represented by an angel. Mark, associated with a lion. Luke, associated with an ox or a calf.

And then an eagle represents John and all the artwork and things like that. You can always tell which evangelist it is by which animal is in the painting with them. That idea comes from here in Revelation and in Ezekiel. They just become associated with the evangelists. I don't think that's the case. I don't think john is saying the four evangelists were surrounding the throne

but that's often how it's portrayed in art all of a sudden it's getting difficult more difficult than it has been up till this point yeah very much so because we switched genres yeah that's a great point we switched genres the rules have rules have changed. Would John's audience, do you think, read this or heard it and just known? Apocalyptic was a language that your first century Christian is by and large going to be familiar with, especially if they have a Jewish background. So I would expect that John's audience would be familiar with this or else I don't know why John would speak to them in this way otherwise. He's not making it difficult on purpose. Right. I think it's supposed to be clear. Okay.

What's happened is the first century speaks a certain language. And in the first century context, this would be plain and easy to be understood. In the 21st century in the West, we no longer speak that language. We don't speak the language of metaphor. We don't speak the language of symbolism. We want literalism. We want things to mean exactly what they say. So for us, it's complicated. But for the first century church, and I think this would be just switching back between two very common ways of talking about things. My guess is, yeah, they would be comfortable with this or else why would John choose it as a mode of expression? One of the things that I'll

sometimes hear that always makes me raise an eyebrow is somebody will say something like, well, John didn't understand what he was seeing. He described it in a symbolic way, but I understand what John means. And Hank used the example earlier of the locusts being helicopters. John didn't understand that when he's looking at helicopters, he's like, well, they look like they were huge locusts flying around. So one of the cautions I would say is that we probably don't want to get to the point where we're saying that we understand the vision better than John does. I would extend that probably to his audience as well, just to tie a bow around that. His audience probably has a firmer definition of this than we do today.

Okay. That reminds me of Nephi's comment after the Isaiah chapters. Well, you didn't understand the manner of prophesying among the Jews. So maybe in a different time and place, this would be plainer to us, which for us, I like. It makes it like a puzzle, like a parable, like we're going to have to dig in and do some work. And I like that. I think it's like a parable. It takes a little more time to think about than if it were literal.

If only somebody would have a podcast about it or something. That would be so convenient. I could have listened to it before I came on this one. But this is the trick. And this is what I tell my students when we get to Book of Revelation is honestly, you almost have to read this at least two different times, sometimes four different times. Is it literal or is it metaphorical? Then you have to ask yourself, is it historical? Is it just first century? Is it in the future? Or is it just a spiritual point or principle? And you have to do that for every verse in the book of Revelation. That's what makes this so complicated. It demands our time. It demands our attention.

And it demands that we be responsible when we do it. We bring the right tools to the table. Nick, so far in chapter four, God is on his throne. He's incredible. He has a lot of followers. The creation is in front of him. Nothing is hidden from him. Am I okay? Yeah, I think so. The fact that we have these beasts here, right? This lion, this calf, this man, this flying eagle suggests something about the order of creation as well. I've noticed there's one human being in here with three animals. Does that suggest something about, sometimes we think of ourselves as the peak of the created order, but maybe from God's perspective, all life somehow has a sacred nature that perhaps escapes us sometimes.

Whenever I teach a gospel doctrine to the youth, they always want to know what happens to their pets, right? What happens to their pets when they die? Sometimes I'll bring them here to show them that there are animals who are in some eternal, immortal state surrounding the throne of God. Perhaps a sign that our own pets, our own animals find their way into God's presence at some point. Hank, you can have our cat in the next life. No, thanks. I don't like cats. My wife likes cats, so we compromised and we have three cats. Do you want four? Joseph Smith actually makes the observation in 1843 talking about these animals. He says they were probably actual animals from other planets. The idea being that other of God's planets also have animals on them, and they're also represented at this point.

So, Hank, you may be encountering a planet of cats at some point in the future. Who knows? Oh, my little boys would love that, but not me. I want to go back to helicopters because I wouldn't mind having a helicopter. If I can just overcome in this life, maybe I can get a helicopter. There you go. If there's a planet of cats, there may be a planet of allergy pills. Yeah.

All right. Yeah. Once again, we found ourself going a little off the rails. The book of revelations. So yeah, it's easy.

Yeah, it's easy. Yeah. And it's fun. The book like this. Yeah. Okay. These beasts,

it continues in verse eight. He describes them. Yeah. Each have six wings, right? Which is very similar to the angels in isaiah 6 the seraphim also has six wings they're full of eyes the idea being that they watch over god's throne okay um they rest not day and night saying holy holy holy which is a nice hebrew way of saying holiest, supremely holy. Lord God Almighty, which was and is and is to come,

which takes us back to, you said this saw the same thing, that reference to Exodus 3.14 that we saw back in chapter 1. Jesus is the one who is, who was, and is to come. And this transcendent majesty of God and his son is what we're talking about here. We're trying to convince our first century followers to put their trust in God. And can the emperor, can any of the rulers in the first century, any of these mighty political figures, can they claim anything similar to what John has seen Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ being able to demonstrate the world in which they live, the power that they wield here in Revelation chapter 4.

Would you say that's the summary of these 11 verses? Is God is all-powerful, there is none like him? Yeah, that's what I would say. We start the vision here with the assertion that God is almighty. He is the one who has the power. He is the one in whom you should put your trust. You've seen thrones, you've seen temples, you would have seen triumphs and parades where generals and emperors and kings and queens would have marched down the street. But can any of them

compare to what you're reading about right here or what you're listening to right here? And the answer is obviously not. Like a Moses one moment, he sees God and he says, I now know man is nothing, which I never supposed. I think we're seeing that same idea. Once you leave chapter four, there should be no doubt in your mind that heavenly father is the being you want to put your support behind. Because what's going to happen is going to get pretty rough. We're only a couple of chapters from unleashing hell on earth, but you want to put your support behind. Because what's going to happen is going to get pretty rough. We're only a couple chapters from unleashing hell on earth.

But you want to know that the one who sits on the throne knows exactly what he's doing. You can put your trust in him. What a way to start the vision. Keep your mind centered on this throughout the rest. Exactly. So now I've got this set. God the Father is all-powerful, almighty, stronger than any earthly leader. What's next then? Once I've got that set and established in chapter 4, what's chapter 5? in a different sense to the Savior. We're going to see why the Savior holds the position that he does and how the Savior stands next to the Father.

So this chapter 5 is the Savior's introduction. What we'll see in chapter 5 is three different parts, all based upon perspective. So verse 1 is kind of part 1, and I saw in the right hand, and we've got our imagery, the right hand that signifies power, specifically the power to bring judgment called the covenant hand. If you want to, in this case,

the hand of the father, because he's the one sitting on the throne, he's holding a book. You have to think like a scroll, a papyrus scroll here, not a book with a spine and covers and things like that. And we find out that the book is written within and on the backside sealed with seven seals. So one of the questions is, what is this book? Later on, we're going to see that the visions that are disclosed, what's going to happen? Is god's plan we don't exactly know why what to make of this scroll is it kind of the plan of salvation that the savior has fulfilled whatever it is it's sealed not just sealed with one seal like you would typically seal but sealed with seven seals and each of these seals is going to have to be broken in order to be able to read it.

In other words, to be able to understand what's on this scroll. Nick, is a seal like a wax covering, like an envelope sealed shut and I've got to open it? Exactly. Right. And you have to see seven of those just working down the side of the scroll. And it's written on both sides somehow but it's sealed to the point where all seven of those seals are going to have to be broken before what's inside can be revealed okay i've got an envelope inside of an envelope inside of an envelope

yeah that's exactly what it is and i've got to get to that one in the middle time becomes an interesting question here i I mean, I tend to approach this as what happens following the ascension. I've also heard others approach this as we're in premortality. We're starting at the beginning and God is holding up a scroll or a plan and saying, I need somebody who can go down and make sure this plan is realized. Kind of a counsel in heaven, so to speak. Depends on what perspective you take here. I don't know if either of them is necessarily right or wrong. I think both of them work. Moral of the story is we find ourselves in some sort of council with God saying, I have

information that's important. But in order for this information to get out, someone's got to break the seals. And it has to be somebody special. It has to be somebody worthy. It can't just be a regular person. Verse two, I saw a strong angel, which we'll see again in chapter 10 with another scroll and another powerful angel repeating the same scene. But this angel proclaims with a loud voice who is worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof and this idea being that it needs to happen but it can only happen by somebody who's worthy to do it so is this like who has the authority who has the virtue who has the ability yeah not everybody can do it we've established how great heavenly father is now we need some way to

establish how worthy and how great and how honorable j is. And this is how we're going to do it, is through a scroll sealed with seven seals that no one else can open up. We could bring D&C 77 into play here. Joseph asks, what are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was sealed in the back with seven seals? And he's told we are to understand it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and works of God, the hidden things of the economy concerning this earth during the 7,000 years of its continued or temporal existence. So somehow it's information that needs to get out there, but it's hidden. It can't get out there until someone special, someone worthy is there to do it.

And unfortunately in verse three, we can't find anyone. No man in heaven, nor in earth, nor under the earth was able to open the book to crack the seals on the scroll, neither to even look thereon. And in the ancient world, your universe is what's known as a three-story universe. You have heaven, you have earth, then you have what's under the earth, and that's your entire universe. It's kind of you have earth, then you have what's under the earth, and that's your entire universe. It's kind of those three stories. So what John is telling you is we looked everywhere. We looked all over heaven, all over earth, all over under the earth. We can't find anybody who's worthy to do it. What that tells you here, we're setting the stage for Jesus. No one is like Jesus. There are not five Jesuses out there.

We looked everywhere. We couldn't find anybody who could do this. That's how unique this task is. It requires someone special, someone specific. And John starts to get worried. I wept much, he says, because no man was found worthy to open the book and to read the book, neither to look there on. He's worried God's message is going to remain hidden. Whatever's here that's so important will never get out because we can't find the person who's worthy to do it. And we're getting anxious. But verse 5, one of the elders said unto me, weep not. Behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah. Here we have a reference to Genesis 49. Judah is a lion's whelp.

The scepter shall not depart from Judah. So we have this regal imagery. There's a reason why it's called the Lion King, not the Cat King or something like that, right? The root of David, an echo of Isaiah 11, there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, a branch shall grow out of his roots, a regal, a kingly image. This individual hath prevailed, past tense, he has conquered, to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof. So John, you were worried.

Guess what? Someone's done this. We found someone. Exactly. And he's described as a lion to the line of the tribe of Judah, the root of David. Your expectations are of a certain sort of individual, somebody regal.

A lion king. What's what you're looking for? So verse six, here we get part two. And I beheld. Somebody regal. A lion king. What's what you're looking for? So verse six, here we get part two. And I beheld. We see the shift. So the first part of this chapter is about the scroll in the hand of the Lord or of the Father. Part two, introduction to the Messiah. And I beheld.

And lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts and in the midst of the elders stoodquerable lion, you get the definition of vulnerability. The opposite of a lion is a lamb. Having seven horns, which is curious. That horn seemed to represent power. You expect like a bull. The image seems to be that while he's a lamb, he's not a sheep, if you can make that distinction. He's not without power. He's not this passive animal. He's a lamb with power. He's vulnerable, yet he's powerful. And seven eyes suggesting wisdom, knowledge, sight, which are the seven spirits of God sent forth into the earth. The idea that Jesus and God see everything. There's nothing that he and the Father are not

aware of. To go back to your point earlier about the churches in chapters 2 and 3, the Savior's sight is perfect. So we have one of these paradoxical images. You don't make something white by washing it in blood. You don't expect a lion and receive a slain lamb. But that's exactly what's happened. He hears about a lion, turns and looks, and he doesn't see it. He sees a lamb. Yes, exactly. A lot of imagery there. A lot of symbolism there.

One of the common ways to sort this out is that this is messianic expectation. The Jews are expecting a political Messiah, a Davidic Messiah who's going to conquer the earth. And they're looking for that lion. But what they missed was the vulnerable lamb, right? Who came down to earth, born in Nazareth, grows up in Galilee, and is crucified. Expectation versus the reality of what he was. Exactly. But there's also something beautiful there about this incredible figure who has seven

horns and seven eyes, yet he's defined by his vulnerability as a lamb. A really thought-provoking picture of the Savior here. A lamb as it had been slain. Reminds me of John the Baptist, right? Behold the Lamb of God. I don't think it's coincidence that in the Gospel of John, he uses that image twice, right? Lamb for Jesus. In the book of Revelation, he uses that image twice, right? Lamb for Jesus. In the book of Revelation, what are we going to use again? It's going to be John using lamb for Jesus. Connections between that story there.

And a provocative imagery. I don't know how much the number symbols, what we're supposed to learn from them, but you can see that in the footnotes in the JST, it changes it to 12 horns and 12 eyes, and then says, which are the 12 servants of God sent forth into all of the earth? I'm looking at footnotes 6B in the JST. That's interesting. And the 12 servants of God sounds like the 12, I guess. And seven makes more sense. I mean, you can't really have seven horns, right? You got to have an even number of horns. Yeah. And seven makes more semi, can't really have seven horns,

right? You got to have an even number. Yeah. It's asymmetrical. Otherwise 12 representing Israel. Again, a covenant number is Joseph bringing this back into the sense of back into the arena of God's people,

Israel, the covenant people, that idea running through here. Yeah. Reminding us running through here. Yeah. Reminding us of Israel. Tribes. Yeah. So the lion is a lamb, but in verse seven, he has a hand.

He does. Yeah. He came and took the book out of the right hand. He was able to take the book. This is about expectation and perception. You might feel a lot better trusting a lion. Trusting a slain lamb requires a bigger leap of faith. A crucified Messiah requires a leap of faith.

But we're going to show you how the people in heaven who are a whole lot smarter than you are down here on earth, we're going to show you how they perceive of the slain lamb. As the slain lamb comes and takes the book, we read this more metaphorical than literal, the savior, the resurrected savior comes and takes the book, the scroll sealed with seven seals out of the right hand. He's now acting as God's agent. Power has been passed, like a baton in this sense, has been passed from the father to the son. He now acts as the father's agent.

If you can trust the father, you can trust the son. He has similar powers, similar responsibilities. Love him who sat on the throne. And when you take in the book, the four beasts, now we see the reaction to the lamb. We saw the reaction to the father in chapter four. Now we see the reaction to the lamb here in chapter five. When he had taken the book, the four beasts and the 24 elders fell down before the lamb, having every one of them harps, she has a priestly idea like it was a levitical duty to play music in the tabernacle there's golden vials full of odors which it takes us

back to the temple the altar of incense perhaps so we see this priestly image as jesus ascends to his throne prayers were told these golden vials of odors are the prayers of the saints. And they sing a new song. We see this in the Psalms. It's often in the Psalms you'll see people saying, we're going to sing a new song. So we have another Old Testament allusion here. And here's the song. Thou art worthy to take the book.

Remember, no one else was worthy. We couldn't find anyone else. Jesus is unique. He has a special role. And to open the seals thereof. And this is really nice. Thou wast slain, which in Greek is the verb sfatso, which is a very, very violent verb. It means essentially to slaughter.

Thou wast slaughtered. But thou hast redeemed, which means literally to purchase. Or as Gord is saying in Hebrew, thou has purchased us to God by thy blood out of every kindred and tongue and people and nation. That's why we should follow you. That's why you're worthy. You were slaughtered and you redeemed us. You saved us. You bought us back.

You purchased us through that blood that you shed. And not just us, every kindred, every tongue, every people, every nation. That's John's way of saying everybody, everybody everywhere has an allegiance, an obligation, a connection to the Savior through his sacrifice. So I might have been looking for a lion to save the Jews. What I got was a lamb that saves everyone. I think that's exactly right.

It might not make a whole lot of sense when you think about it that way. A crucified Messiah, it's a stumbling block, as we saw Paul says in 1 Corinthians. It's foolishness. It doesn't make a lot of sense. What I'm going to do is I'm going to show you how the people in heaven react to it. And they react with honor and awe and wonder. And maybe we should take a page out of their book and react

the same way as they do. Yeah, it's almost like they throw a party. Really? That's what it is. They're playing music. Verse 10. Now, notice this. This is going to take us all the way back again to chapter one. We come full circle. In chapter one, we were told that Jesus redeemed us through his blood and made us kings and priests. Verse 10, that thou, the lamb, has made us, which is actually them. There's a weird English translation here, but thou has made

them, meaning the people who have been redeemed, unto our God, kings and priests. A kingdom and priests, what it literally means, but kings and priests more familiarly. And we or they shall reign on the earth. gave up his life because he yielded his will to the father he's now earned the right to take the book open the seals and pronounce judgment upon the earth this one's a little bit easier than chapter four just a little bit easier i think part of that is because the idea of a crucified vulnerable compassionate messiah is not a foreign concept for us we're comfortable with that if you're not comfortable with that it becomes complicated but we're comfortable with that idea this is very familiar from the book of mormon book of mormon talks about compassionate the lamb of god that

image is all over the place in the book of mormon and so verse 11 part 3 for the third time john's going to behold something and now we're going to branch out probably was father then it was son now it's everybody verse 11 i beheld and i heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders and the number of them was 10 000 times 10 000 and thousands thousands. You can do the math on that. It's a lot. It's a lot. Very, very big number.

If you put this in a first century perspective, if you're a Christian, you live your life every day feeling outnumbered. You're surrounded by Jews. You're surrounded by Gentiles, surrounded by pagans. You're always in the minority. And then what do you have here? You have thousands upon thousands upon thousands of beings in heaven worshiping the Savior. You're now in the majority. You're now part of this larger party when you worship the Father and the Son. Saying with a loud voice, worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. Notice how many words there?

Power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, blessing. Seven. John likes to use numbers. Sometimes he'll just give you the number, like seven. We'll see with next week's reading, a number like three and a half. He finds like four different ways to say three and a half. You have to read carefully, a time, times, and half a time. For example, for three and a half, there are 42 months

or 1,260 days for all different ways of saying three and a half. So you always have to be aware of the numbers that lie beneath the surface here. Power, riches, wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, remember our view is wisdom, strength, honor, glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, remember our view is now, this is apocalyptic. We're unveiling the Father. We're unveiling the Son. Now we're unveiling heaven itself. Every creature which is in heaven and on the earth

and under the earth and such are in the sea and all that in them are. Everyone, everywhere. Previously, no one was found to be worthy when we looked in heaven and earth and under the earth. Now everyone acknowledges the Lamb is worthy. Blessing and honor and glory and power be unto him that sitteth upon the throne and unto the Lamb forever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that lived forever and ever.

And this is really nice. We end chapter five. We began chapter five with some doubt, with some consternation. Would we find someone worthy to open the seals? We end chapter five with peace and harmony in heaven. Everyone, thousands upon thousands, are all joined in worshiping the Lamb. All is well in heaven. That's the message of chapter 5.

Everything's good up there. What's the next question? What about down here? What's going to happen on earth? And that question will quickly be answered in chapter 6 as we start breaking these seals that are on the scroll. We'll start to see how much disharmony is on earth as opposed to heaven.

This has been just fantastic. I've got Jesus being introduced in chapter one. He speaks to these seven churches in chapters two and three. I'm introduced to God the Father and his glory in chapter four, and I'm introduced to the mission of the Savior in chapter five and his unique role in the plan. Do you feel like I got you there, Nick? That summarized it well. You're going to want to hold that and contrast it next week. Beginning of chapter six, everything is going to be very different. It's going to be the opposite on earth. It's going to be chaos.

It's going to be disharmony. The challenge that the book of Revelation faces is, do you want what I show you about heaven? Or do you want what's here on earth? You need to make a choice. Choose which one you want. Don't be lukewarm. Choose which one you want.

And then if you want to overcome, if you want those blessings in heaven, pay attention to what I'm going to tell you in this book of John, the gospel called the gospel of God. And I remember Elder McConkie saying, yeah, why don't we call it the gospel of God? Well, it's because the Savior put Heavenly Father's plan in motion and it became the gospel of Jesus Christ then. And that sums up very nicely what's happening in the book of Revelation. Yeah. That's what it reminded me of. The gospel of God, the Father's, our Heavenly Father's plan became the gospel of Jesus Christ as the Lamb is going to put it all in motion and have His blood slain from the foundation of the world, which is that it was always known that would happen type of the things. That's what I'm seeing. Yeah, that's nice. Nick, this is from a non-Latter-day Saint Bible scholar, but a great one.

He said, the pastoral role of revelation is to summon every generation of readers to follow the lamb in its footsteps and to resist the beast within and without. And to suffer along with the lamb, if need be, in bearing witness to what he's done. If that's not where it ends, we've totally missed the purpose of this apocalyptic literature. Do you feel like that's our first five chapters? It needs to culminate in how great the lamb is. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Sometimes when we get lost in the language of cracking the code, I have to know what 666 means. I have to know what this red horse is. What we're doing is we're losing sight of the big picture.

The big picture here, I tell my students this every semester. I can summarize the book of Revelation in two words. Jesus wins. That's the point. Do you want to be on the winning side or do you want to be on the losing side? If you want to be on the winning side, then follow the Lamb. As you work through these chapters, you know, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, emulate what the 144,000 are doing. Be aware of the tactics that Satan's going to use in chapters 13 through 17. Make sure that you're there for the marriage supper of the lamb in chapter 19. The overarching purpose here is to

remind us to follow the lamb and avoid the beast. And the beast is very, very good. The dragon is very, very good. In fact, in chapter 13, the beast, what we call the Antichrist, right, is described as being like a lamb. Essentially, he's a counterfeit lamb. He's very good at looking like he's the lamb. And it's up to us to be able to discern through the spirit of prophecy and revelation, through texts like, I think, the book of Revelation, through something like the book of Mormon, on how to figure out where the true lamb is. So we recognize like those who are in heaven and have no problem recognizing the lamb is worthy. Well, we reached the point where we can say the same thing. And that's not an easy thing to do. The world is a very complicated place. Satan's very good at throwing things at us and presenting himself in a certain way. And it takes a lot

to kind of cut through that. But that's why I love this book. That's why I studied the book of Revelation, because to me, that's the challenge. Find the right lamb. Understand who Jesus is, what his mission is, and make sure I'm doing what I need to do to be overcoming. That's the challenge of every day of my life, is make sure I continue to overcome. Going back to this quote, the point is to keep the big picture in mind. It's so easy to get lost in the little things in the book of Revelation, locusts and other things like that, that we lose the lamb. And we don't want to do that. The lamb, it is the revelation of Jesus Christ. It's right there in the first verse. And if we start getting on directions that we're not talking about Jesus anymore, we're being distracted by something else,

then we need to step back and refocus and find the lamb again. President Nelson said, I express special gratitude to the Lord Jesus Christ. I am thankful for his loving kindness and for his open invitation to come unto him. I marvel at his matchless power. I testify of Jesus Christ as the master healer. It is but one of the many attributes that characterize his incomparable life. This is almost like a chapter five-esque quote. He says, Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God, the Creator, the great Jehovah, the promised Emmanuel,

our atoning Savior and Redeemer, our advocate with the Father, our great exemplar. Doesn't that seem to be the message of chapter 5, Nick? I like what you said there. Choose the right lamb. There's going to be a dragon that's pretending to be a lamb. Don't choose that one. Choose the authentic lamb. It's interesting because as you

work your way through the book of revelation the lamb disappears the lamb is so prominent in chapter five to the point where tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of beings worship him and then he begins to open the seals and he recedes into the background and we don't really see a parody of the lamb later on but we don't actually see the the lamb reemerge in a similar fashion if we get to chapter 19. I think that parallels why we need to keep these early chapters in mind, why we need to base our faith and testimony upon the revelation of Jesus Christ, like what he offers us in these early chapters, the promises of making us kings and queens, priests and priestesses, the transcendence of the Father and the power of the Savior,

because there's going to be times where it doesn't seem like he's there, that God isn't in the world, that things are going to feel oppressive, that it's going to seem like the Lamb has disappeared. But he's always there behind the scenes. The Lamb is always watching things. God's hand is completely in control. That's the point here. There's nothing that's going to happen on earth that God isn't fully in control of. Don't lose that perspective. Even when it seems the lamb

might not be there or God may have lost part of the control, Christians in the first century, Rome may seem like they've got everything completely under control and you have no power of your own. Just remember the lamb is always there. The father is always in control. And sometimes that's hard for us to remember because the dragon can be pretty persuasive. Babylon can be a pretty persuasive place. The lamb is always there. So this is one of those books, Nick, that it's okay to read the end and say, oh, the lamb comes back. Yeah, absolutely. Jesus wins.

That's the point of the book, right? Jesus wins. I just had this phrase when John was writing, the revelation was to the churches about he that hath an ear to hear, let him hear. And if anybody's listening, they have an ear. That's a fact. But letting him hear, that's a decision of opening our ears to hear. I love that the Lord used it in parables, that he who hath ears to hear, you have ears now. What are you going to do with this? Decide to hear the testimony that we've

talked about today. I like that. I got to open my ears to hear this. And thank you for pointing us to Christ. If you're getting off onto timelines and what locusts are, you're off the rails, as you put it. Thank you for that, Nick. It's fun. You can see what the appeal is, right? I can crack the code and figure out everything that's out there, but it takes us away from the heart of the book. Awesome. Nick, if I'm at home, I've stayed with us here for the last few hours. By the way, thank you for those of you who are still with us. What do you hope I walk away from this thinking? One, I'm ready to study the book of Revelation responsibly, but what's my main takeaway? I hope it's confidence. I hope it's confidence that the path that you've picked as a disciple of Jesus Christ is the right one. I hope this book solidifies that the decisions you've made

to be where you're at are the right ones. The book of Revelation is going to tell us there's going to be a lot of opposition. There's going to be a lot of things that are going to pop up that look like they're the right thing. There's going to be a lot of things that are going to pop up that look like they're the right thing. There's going to be a lot of things that are going to happen that make you question whether you picked the wrong side. But I hope that what we've done with these first five chapters give you the confidence to continue in your path as a daughter or son of Heavenly Father. Awesome. What a great day. What a great day. I don't know him personally, but I think John would be happy with what we've done.

I hope so. I hope we did him justice. It's always a little bit uncomfortable commenting on someone else's work, right? You just hope you get it right. Profound, beautiful work. Thanks for being here. It's just so fun to sit here and listen to someone who has done the research and done the work. Yeah.

Explain things. Hey, thanks for having me on. There's nothing I love more than just sitting and talking about the scriptures. So this was a pleasure. Yeah, us too. We want to thank Dr. Nick Frederick for joining us today. It's been absolutely wonderful. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorenson,

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