followHIM - Revelation 6-14 Part 1 • Dr. Christopher Blythe • Dec 11 - Dec 17

Episode Date: December 6, 2023

Have you wondered how to interpret and apply Revelation 6-14? Learn how Jesus has already won the battle against sin and death as you explore this enigmatic passage with seasoned scholar Dr. Christopher Blythe.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/new-testament-episodes-41-52/Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/follow-him-a-come-follow-me-podcast/id1545433056YouTube: https://youtu.be/vOPd6S3Xf3sInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastSpotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/15G9TTz8yLp0dQyEcBQ8BYPlease rate and review the podcast!00:00 Part 1–Dr. Christopher Blythe00:28 Review of last week’s episode03:29 Angels and Seerstones04:46 Overview of Revelation 6-1407:48 The Lamb and the Throne Room09:41 The Four Horsemen16:01 The Roman Empire and John’s audience17:25 Martyrs 21:53 Seventh Seal25:02 A bittersweet book28:01 144,000 as a symbol30:45 Using the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible) as a key 36:04 Blood washing robes white39:08 John shares a personal story about the Provo Temple 40:37 President Nelson on temple attendance46:07 Great and Terrible49:15 Abinadi and two prophets54:07 Eucatastrophe and Handel’s Messiah59:16 His kingdom to come1:00:32 End of Part I–Dr. Christopher BlytheThanks to the followHIM team:Shannon Sorensen: Cofounder, Executive Producer, SponsorDavid & Verla Sorensen: SponsorsDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: Marketing, SponsorLisa Spice: Client Relations, Editor, Show NotesJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignAnnabelle Sorensen: Creative Project ManagerWill Stoughton: Video EditorKrystal Roberts: Translation Team, English & French Transcripts, WebsiteAriel Cuadra: Spanish Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com

Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name's Hank Smith. I'm your host. I'm here with my conquering co-host, John, by the way. Welcome, John. We are back for another week of Follow Him. Thank you, Hank. If I could conquer your cold, I would send you something, but you sound great a little bit deeper. Yes, I do have a cold. I think this is the first time in three years that I've had a cold when we've recorded, but the show must go on. That's right.

John, we are in the book of Revelation again this week. Last week, we were in chapters one through five. We did an introduction with Dr. Frederick and went through chapters one through five. What did you learn? remembered was him talking about how we have to be careful. And I think he used the word responsible and how we interpret these. One of the things I remember hearing Richard Draper talk about was maybe that John the Revelator put these things in code so we wouldn't mess with them, you know, a code called apocalyptic and so that they would stay. But then it opens up to so many interpretations. But I remember that idea of being careful and responsible with it. Yeah. I really liked towards the end, we did a description of the Savior. If you remember, we talked about the lion. John hears about a lion, but he turns and it's not a lion. It's a lamb, a lamb that had been slain. What an interesting way to describe

the Savior using these beautiful symbols. John, we're joined today by a wonderful scholar, Dr. Chris Blythe. We're taking on the next section of Revelation, chapters 6 through 14. Are you looking forward to anything? What are we going to hear about? Absolutely. This is a section full of symbols, just like you said, Hank, and symbols that are designed to reveal. We're going to talk about

symbols that many Latter-day Saints will know a little bit about. We're going to talk about the seven seals, the 144,000, the woman in the wilderness, even a figure that sometimes people call the Antichrist. All of that is wrapped up into this section. Through it, there's a lot of powerful passages about how the saints can follow Christ, even when things get really, really difficult. Fantastic. I am looking forward to this. John, as I was looking through these chapters, I thought, I definitely need a guide. It's going to be fun to have Chris with us. He's new to our audience. We haven't had him on Follow Him before. So John, I think we need to learn about it.

Absolutely. Dr. Christopher Blythe is an assistant professor in the English department at Brigham Young University. He's a scholar of American religion with a specialty in Latter-day Saint history and folklore. He got his PhD in American religious history from Florida State University in 2015. Before that, received a master's degree in history at Utah State University and bachelor's degrees in religion at Utah State University and bachelor's degrees in religion from Utah State University and anthropology from Texas A&M University. He worked as a historian and documentary editor for the Joseph Smith Papers for a few years.

He was also a research associate at the Neal A. Maxwell Institute for Religious Scholarship at BYU and co-editor for the Journal of Mormon History. He wrote a book called Terrible Revolution, Latter-day Saints and the American Apocalypse. It was published by Oxford University Press. And he started a podcast this summer called Angels and Seer Stones, which Hank, we've heard is wonderful. So we're really glad to have you here, Dr. Chris. Oh, thank you so much. Really appreciate that. This is going to be great. Angels and seer stones. I just subscribed to the podcast, Chris. What am I looking forward to when I listen to these episodes?

Every episode is commentary for me and my wife, but most of the episodes are really focused around dramatized stories from the saints. Each episode is a different theme. You can learn about stories about Moroni or people who talk to their children as spirits before they're born. And then we analyze it. Okay. Does that fall under the umbrella of folklore? Absolutely.

Folklore means stories people tell. Stories people tell. Informal stories that we pass by word of mouth. Wow. Chris, has there been a moment in your academic career where you went, okay, that might be the pinnacle. That might be the best story I've ever heard. Has anything come to mind? Our last episode was on stories of the Savior and the temple. And some of those stories are word of

mouth. We're not getting all these things at General Conference. So sometimes we get them a hundred years later from a descendant. It's really family stories I love. In this podcast of yours, do you delve into, is this true? Is it not true? Or do you just say, hey, look, here's the story? If it's a dangerous story, then we might question it. But for the most part, I just want these stories to sit there. I want people to be proud of being Latter-day Saints. I want us to delve in and say, hey, this is our culture. And the story is a really important part of that. That's fantastic. Chris, let's jump into our lesson today. Revelation six, all the way through 14. You come highly recommended by your

peers. How do you want to start? What kind of lens are we going to put on as we go through these chapters? Both of what you and John said about these chapters are really important. Do we need a guide? Are these symbols kind of difficult? Joseph claimed, he told us that this was a plain book this is supposed to be easy to understand text if i can be personal for a second i was a 12 year old episcopalian boy when i first read these chapters in the book of revelation i feel really blessed to be on here talking about them because these were the chapters that really made me puzzled in 1993. In fact, I wrote a list of questions from them, and I brought them to my priest. And I asked him, what do I do with these 144,000? What's the tribulation? What is this angel here? And at the end of our meeting, he said, Chris, I don't think this is

the most important scripture. I'm not sure it should even be in the Bible. It troubled me as a 12-year-old. I met sister missionaries the next year as a 13-year-old. They gave me a copy of the Book of Mormon. In 1 Nephi, I found that this book was really important. Not only is Nephi giving us a reading of the book of Revelation and his beautiful vision of his father's dream, but there's a passage that says John's foredained to give this revelation. I believe the restoration is a guide to understand the book of Revelation. And there's four things as we go in that I think would provide our lens. Certainly the book itself, but we have Doctrine and Covenants 77. This is Joseph's revelation in 1832 that offers answers to questions he had or those that were with him had, particularly about these chapters.

We also have the Joseph Smith translation, which gives us a beautiful explanatory retelling of chapter 12. Certainly we have first Nephi, and we also have Joseph's sermons living in the moment we do, or Joseph Smith papers are so available. If any of your listeners go and type revelation or different symbols, a hundred and, 1000, any of the things they're interested in, you're going to find that Joseph actually spoke a lot about it. This material meant a lot to him. I want to look through the lens of the restoration because that's really what brings these chapters open. That's important to recognize what lens we're bringing to the text. We're not going to look at this as a New Testament scholar might, but let's

bring the restoration and take a look at it. That is right. Back in chapter four, we're in the throne room vision. The book of Revelation is sometimes wrongly called the book of Revelations, but that's not really that misleading because it actually is a series of revelations that John's going to have. And the throne room moment, John's brought there. He sees the angels around the throne of God. He sees the lamb, which is of course the symbol of Christ. He sees the resurrected saints, beautiful imagery in this sort of temple imagery. The Ark of the Covenant is there. All those things are the key because we don't have those descriptions in chapter six, but that's where we're at still.

There was this book, the sealed book, seven seals, and the lamb is worthy to open it. And the seals open one at a time. And chapter six is the book of Revelation that is more influential in art and popular culture renderings of the last days and so on than these seals. Joseph tells us in section 77, starts out verse 7, what are we to understand by the seven seals with which it was sealed. We are to understand that the first seal contains the things of the first thousand years and the second also of the second thousand years and so on until the seventh. We're being shown world history. This is really important as we think of this, but I also think Joseph at the end of his life is speaking about these events as last day's experiences as well. As we talk about each seal, these are also sort of a second fulfillment in the last days. We're

also going to have situations that are predicted here that are going to come forth then, which will make sense as we go on since the other chapters actually detail those. The first seal is the conqueror. This image, we call them the four horsemen. They come one at a time for the first four seals. And the first one is that the wonderful conquering horseman. It says, and I saw and behold a white horse and he that sat on him had a bow and a crown was given unto him and he went forth conquering and to conquer and then the next seal there's a red horse and it's a symbol of warfare and then the third is a symbol of famine black horse and then the fourth, it's a pale horse. It's an image of death.

It tells us hell will follow after it. Pretty scary images of these four horsemen. There's great art on this. In fact, I chose one when I did my book, Terrible Revolution. One of the covers is an image that Joseph Smith had in his office of these four horsemen, an image that he thought a lot about. The first horse, if we take Joseph literally and say this is a symbol of the opening of this world, is really kind of mysterious, something that conquers. I've really wrestled with what Bruce

R. McConkie said about this, but I actually think it's really insightful. He said that this is a symbol of Enoch. My first thought was, wait a second, the majority of readers of this book don't have access to the book of Moses that I have. Is that really an effective symbol for the Lord to use? But just think of this. Here is a symbol of conquering in the beginning, and who is, other than John, who's a greater conqueror? And that's Enoch, who actually found a way to show that there's a way to create a society on earth under Christ that's going to live despite all the temptation and all of the rough things we're going to read about in the book of Revelation, but actually have that symbol immediately of

someone who conquered. When people think about this figure in art, sometimes it's portrayed as Jesus Christ himself. And I like that. You know, because of course, a symbol of the Savior. The second and third horses, this war and famine describe hardships that people faced in the past and of course continue to face. And then something happens with the fourth horse. The fourth horseman is a symbol of death. I mean, this is a scary symbol. It's a symbol that shows up again in a passage in the Doctrine and Covenants that is really mysterious to me until I understood this. It's section 61 about the destroyer on the water. And we're told he's riding on the water. Well, why is he riding? I've wondered this forever.

Finally, when I was working for the Joseph Smith Papers, I realized this was a reference to the destroying angel or to death. And how does he get around? Well, according to John, he gets around on a horse. He rides. It became a symbol of what was going on in the water there. It's important to know that in the Doctrine and Covenants and throughout revelations of our time period, it's often drawing on symbols, including in our most sacred place, right, the temple, are drawing on symbols that are first pointed out here in the book of Revelation. I remember hearing Richard Draper talk about the color white, which we normally think of as purity. We have the white cloth at the sacrament table and the baptismal clothes and temple clothes, and the book of Revelation talks about walking with Jesus in white.

He said that to John the Revelator, it could mean victory. I really loved the idea of going to the temple in a victorious white, maybe like Enoch conquering the wickedness of the earth, that idea of victory over temptation through repentance. Does that fit? Oh, absolutely. I really do believe the book of Revelation is the backdrop to so many symbols in the temple remember we've already started out in chapter one being told that christ makes us kings and priests victorious role both over political situations we're gonna find those are really tough here and religious situations that we're gonna find are really tough at this moment and then that white robe is given

to those kings and priests later on that we'll talk about in chapter 7. So yeah, absolutely. These are those who have overcome. Hank knows sometimes I see lyrics for hymns in some of these verses. The one that comes to mind is, All arrayed in spotless white, we will dwell mid-truth and light. And I think about white being victory.

It sounds cool it's like nascar it's the checkered flag but in revelation it's victorious white which i like that oh i think that's wonderful thank you chris let me ask you if i'm looking at chapter six and i see conquest war famine and pestilence it feels to me a little like- Junior high. Yeah. What's your statement about junior high? I quoted you the other day, Hank. I just think it's a terrible idea. Junior high, let's take all the most insecure people in society, put them in the same building together for six or seven hours. It's like an emotional hunger game. And see who survives. Put them in the same building together for six or seven hours. It's like an emotional hunger game.

And see who survives. Yeah. Who comes out with a self-esteem. Is it okay for me to think in the history of the earth, there has been conquest, war, famine, poverty, and pestilence and death, the difficulties of mortal life and how overwhelming life can be. When I look at the news and I see conquest, war, disease, death, I'm like, ah, someone needs to save me from this. Absolutely.

A lot of Christians want to read these symbols as all last day symbols, but we're going to find that this is really our mortal existence. John's going to see the fall of Satan. He's going to see the great apostasy. He's going to see all these things that represent our time here on earth. Yes, let's think of these passages as how they affect us. And certainly we are facing in the world today all four of these things. I think of John's original readers too. This has to be all around them, living in the Roman empire. Nick talked a little bit about this last week, was living as a Christian in the Roman empire. You're in the minority. Which leads us to that fifth seal. The fifth seal is,

and I'll read this out loud. It's quite the image. Now, remember, we're in the throne room, and this is God's throne room. I imagine this is really large. When he'd opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar, the Ark of the Covenant, the souls of them that were slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? This is an image of these martyrs. Now, we think of them because it's the fifth seal as these Christian martyrs in the thousand years after Christ, the reign of Nero and others who persecuted the early saints.

But they're asking, they're saying, hey, when's it time for the second coming? When are we going to have that turn of power right now the god of this world is satan when can we turn it and have the savior here well yeah that's verse 10 how long oh lord holy and true does thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth yeah that sounds a lot like section 121 joseph smith in liberty jail absolutely and white robes were given unto every one of them That sounds a lot like section 121, Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail. Absolutely. And white robes were given unto every one of them.

And it was said unto them that they should rest yet for a little season until their fellow servants also and their brethren that should be killed as they were should be fulfilled. This is a pretty scary image. It's an expectation of martyrdom. One of the early stories that's associated with the martyrdom of the prophet Joseph is that while he was in Carthage jail, he sent out a request for the saints to read chapter six of the book of Revelation. I don't know if that actually happened. It was a story that circulated that Joseph did this. But the early saints associated this passage with Joseph. Here is the idea that the Lord, there's going to be a certain number of martyrs, and they hoped Joseph was going to be the last of these. It was the final waiting moment, because that's kind of what the passage is saying.

We're waiting for that last martyr, and then it's time. We see this idea of martyrdom show up all over the Book of Mormon, certainly the Doctrine and Covenants. As the Book of Mormon has a pattern, people get wicked, secret combination starts. And what do the secret combinations do? They kill the prophets. And it's then, when they kill the prophets that God acts. 3 Nephi 11 happens after an era of secret combination, but persecution of the prophets.

And this is the same point being made here in Revelation, that before God can act, people have to be ripe in iniquity. This moment has to occur. The early saints wrote poetry about this moment. They talked about it a lot. There's a great poem called The Martyr's Cry, which refers to this section here. Eliza R. Snow wrote one, Parley P. Pratt and others. And this image that we're waiting for what's going to happen. Martyrdom is really important to the Latter-day Saints. As much as people want to

imagine that Latter-day Saints have a persecution complex, we really haven't taken advantage of the stories that would make it so we emphasize persecution. We might talk about being judged, but we actually have a lot of saints who have been murdered for their testimony of the gospel. Not just Joseph and Hiram, but Joseph Standing. We have about eight or nine that were killed in the American South during the 1800s. Martyrdom is important. It's not something we talk about in the church, except for the experience of Joseph and the Savior and maybe people in Acts. But really, we kind of avoid those topics. That's where John's leading us here.

Like, pay attention. Martyrdom is something that's important. And it's important to these people in John's time because this might be what their life mission is, the souls under the altar. It's something that we overlook, but to the early saints, particularly reading Revelation and the early saints of our dispensation, this was something they could really identify with. In fact, there was an expectation that there would be a lot of early Latter-day Saint martyrs. And one of the sermons after Joseph's death is, a lot's been paid here, that we won't need to have a lot of martyrs, that Joseph has this special role.

They imagined that he was the last, or at least a really significant answer to this question. Who are we waiting for? We're going to learn that there's more martyrs coming in this chapter. That's the fifth seal. The sixth seal goes on and talks about something that has not happened. Although in all of these, there's lots of speculation, but these are sort of cosmic events, right? There's going to be a great earthquake. The sun's going to turn black. The moon's going to become blood and the stars of heaven are going to fall like a fig tree casting its untimely figs when it's shaken in a mighty wind. And here we have this moment where people are going to want to hide, hide themselves in rocks because they know it's judgment. I remember the first time I read this, just imagining this scene of people

in verse 16, and they're going to hide in the mountains and they're going to say to the mountains and rocks, fall on us and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb for the great day of his wrath has come and who shall be able to stand this is such an image of people realizing wait a second what are we going to do now chapter 7 is going to tell us what happens next and i would imagine if we ended it with chapter 6 there's not a lot of hope this is a lot of people that are absolutely hopeless. The seventh seal opens. Remember, this is the beginning of the millennium. And in that, there's a silence in heaven. People have debated what this silence means. And then there's some last events happening.

But what's really important about chapter seven is this conversation between angels. In verse 1, it says, This is a conversation. Here we have four destroying angels, at least symbolic individuals who are positioned there to bring to pass God's judgments. And then a fifth angel shows up. This is a really mysterious passage, but fortunately, Doctrine and Covenants 77 breaks it down. If we go to verse 8, what are we to understand by the four angels spoken of in the seventh chapter and first verse of Revelation? Answer, we are to understand that they are four angels sent forth from God, to whom is given power over the four parts of the earth, to save life and to destroy.

These are they who have the everlasting gospel to commit to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, having power to shut up the heavens, to seal up unto life, or to cast down to the regions of darkness. I like that. There's something going on here earlier. They're not just destroying angels. These are they who have the everlasting gospel to commit to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people. They're important. We don't know the identity of these four angels, but we do know the identity of this fifth angel. What are we to understand the angel ascending from the east? Revelation 7 and verse 2. We are to understand

that the angel ascending from the east is he to whom is given the seal of the living God over the 12 tribes of Israel. Wherefore he cried from the four angels, having the everlasting gospel saying, hurt not the earth until we've sealed the servants of our god on their foreheads if you go down to the next verse you'll receive it this is the elias who's going to restore all things so this is a special figure that's given a beautiful symbolic title i want to talk about those 104 000 but let's jump forward to chapter 10, because we're going to be told that this angel is actually John. At the end of chapter 10, John has a special ordinance performed for him in this vision. Beginning in verse 8 of chapter 10, John is going to do something that the prophet Isaiah has done

before. He's going to be beckoned to eat a book, and it's a bittersweet book. Verse 8, And the voice which I heard from heaven spake unto me again, and said, Go and take the little book which is open in the hand of the angel which standeth upon the sea and upon the earth. And I went unto the angel and said unto him, Give me the little book. And he said unto me, Take it, and eat it up, and it shall make thy belly bitter, but it shall be in thy mouth sweet as honey. And I took the little book out of the angel's hand and ate it up, and it was in my mouth sweet as honey. And as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter. I wonder if this is John's translation.

Translation, it sounds really great to be immortal, but it's probably really rough to bear the suffering of the world as we read about the three Nephites. And he said unto me, thou must prophesy again before many peoples and nations and tongues and kings. So here John is getting his commission. It's not just going to be for your life here on earth. This is going to be something you're going to do again. Joseph describes this chapter when the divine describes this chapter. And section 77 verse 14 is the question, what is this little book? And the answer is, we are to understand that it was a mission and an ordinance for him to gather the tribes of Israel. Behold, this is Elias. Remember right

before we were told Elias was a name for that ascending angel from the east, who as it is written, must come and restore all things. We don't really understand all of John the Revelator's role, what he's doing, but there's a moment here that says he's going to be in charge of making sure people are safe, the righteous are safe during this calamity that's going to happen. So stop the judgment before it happens. Let's take care of those that the father needs to do his work during this time. I see that Chris, Doctrine and Covenants section 77 verse nine, who is the angel in chapter seven, verse two, this is Elias, which has come to gather together the tribes of Israel

and restore all things. And then if you go down, this is what you pointed out. Verse 14, same section, Doctrine and Covenants 77. What's the little book as eaten by John? This is the ordinance for him to gather the tribes of Israel. And it says it again, this is Elias, who as it is written, must come and restore all things. Doctrine and Covenants 77 is the one that ties Revelation 7-2 to Revelation 10-9, 10-10. Did I get that right? You have that absolutely right. This is John all of a sudden realizing, well, maybe he doesn't realize it. Joseph realizes that this angel that's going to do this great work is none other than John, who's watching it unfold, and who, as we know by Nephi, has been set apart to have this revelation himself to bring forth this book that we're reading. Something happens. He needs a seal to

be placed in the heads of his servants. That's back in 7.3, right? Yeah, we're jumping back to 7. Chapter 7 of Revelation is going to tell us that a ceiling has to be placed in the servants of our God and their foreheads. And he hears the number of them which were sealed, and it's 144,000. It's 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. This should resonate with us. This is the restoration of the house of Israel in the last days. People learning that they're Ephraim and that they're Manasseh and so on and so forth. They're part of this restored house of Israel that the Apostle John is seeing. 104,000 we often talk about as this symbolic number. As Latter-day Saints, we're not really hung up on this being a specific group of people.

I know Nick mentioned the Millerites and others that have come up with all sorts of interpretations of what the hundred and four thousand are. Joseph gives us some insights on it. I can remember the first Richard Draper talk I ever saw. He said, the hundred and four thousand, these are the senior missionaries. We're going to have young missionaries until this point. And then because Joseph in section 77 is going to tell us that these are high priests. Verse 11, what are we to understand by the sealing the 144,000 out of all the tribes, 12,000 out of every tribe, says we are to understand that those who are sealed are high priests ordained under the holy order of God to administer the everlasting gospel.

For they are they who are ordained out of every nation, kindred, tongue, and people by the angels to whom is given power over the nations of the earth to bring as many as will come to the church of the firstborn. This clues us in, right? So the 104,000 are people selected at this time. They're going to be protected, but they got things to do. They're high priests, and they are, I mean, we don't really know exactly how this is working, but when we describe them as missionaries, I think that's a fun way to gain the concept

of what they're doing. They're going to go out in the middle of these events that we're going to see, the events happening that the angels are going to bring about, and they're going to administer the everlasting gospel. Just because these last days events are occurring doesn't mean it's over. That's going to happen later on. Next week's episode, you'll have a scene where it says, may the wicked be wicked still, but this isn't the time that we're going to have missionaries out there working

really, really hard and God's specially preparing them so they can go to dangerous places and be a okay. Just like John would, they're going to have power to bring as many as will come to the church of the firstborn, That beautiful title for the Savior. One tool that Nick gave us last week was to watch for when John harkens back to the Old Testament. As he's writing, if you can pick up on some of these. There's a couple that I picked up, and I'll let either of you comment if you want to. The idea of sealing the servants of God in their foreheads brought me back to Deuteronomy 6 that talks about the frontlets through the midst of Jerusalem and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that

sigh and that cry for all the abominations that have done in the midst thereof. So it seems, and again, I can't go much further than this, but it seems that John is hearkening back to some of these old Jewish traditions of showing who you are by what is there between your eyes, this physical phylactery. Maybe it's symbolic here, but to the old Old Testament Israelites, it was an actual item, box on your forehead. Oh, I love that. When scholars describe this, or church scholars do, they'll often compare it to marks placed on non-Israelites about people who take whatever God there is and make a mark about him on their foreheads. Yeah, I love that example of the phylacters there. So this is representing who they are, and it's right there in their minds, and their essence of who they are is going to right there in their minds and their their essence of who they are is going to have the name of god written on it whose property that idea of oh absolutely this

is who they are they're heirs of god joseph gets this as he interprets this to the saints he doesn't really speak about this much from the time 1832 when we have his revealed statement about the meaning of the hundred and four thousand and then after he begins to reveal temple ceremonies in navu joseph begins to reference this passage and he does so on several occasions we're fortunate to have lots of copies of joseph's sermons through this period and i'm just going to read you a couple quotes from different sermons. Here's one from August 1843. He says in this image, there's covenant sealed on the foreheads of the parents secured the children from falling that they shall all sit upon thrones as one with the Godhead, joint heirs of God with Jesus Christ. He sees a symbol of this seal on the forehead as literally the sealing that's being performed in temples.

February of 1844, he's going to say, this is in his journal, that the selections of persons to form that number had already commenced. Wandel Mace is going to say, quoting Joseph Smith, he's going to say, pray that you may live to go into the temple and be sealed in your forehead. Another sermon from Joseph, the necessity of the temple that the servants of God

may be sealed in their foreheads, that the four angels would not be permitted to destroy the earth till this is done. We don't need to talk what that means specifically in the ordinances, but this is temple stuff. This is how this beautiful, as a kid, as I was reading this passage,

what does that mean? I imagine an angel showing up in my bedroom or something. But an angel did show up in my bedroom. It was Moroni, right? This authority has been revealed. The specific 144,000 who are selected are going to be given power in their priesthood, but the ordinance, that sealing, is something that I think is going on. It's been

revealed. It's something that's occurring already. And maybe Joseph misspoke when he said the 144,000 were already being selected in his day, but the method of that selecting, that number by which these 104,000 would be selected from, was occurring. It's really important to see that these figures are temple-related. As we read about new names and stones and dressing in white, John wants us thinking about the temple. And certainly the Father does today as he's revealed how we should be reading these passages. Chris, it's also fascinating to me in chapter seven that the tribes of Israel are listed. Judah in verse five, Reuben, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Manasseh, Simeon, Zebulon, Benjamin, Joseph.

To me, it seems all encompassing that all of Israel is involved. Except for Dan, which is an interesting side note. I had a friend who was identified as Dan in his patriarchal blessing, and he really hurt that Dan wasn't listed in this passage. Like, what does that mean? Am I not a good person? And I think it is meant to be all-en encompassing. I think this is meant to be that God is restoring his people. Every tribe is counted. That's right. John and Dan met later and he's like, hey, sorry. What's going on here? I couldn't remember how to spell that's right. I want to just point out verse 14. John, we talked about this last week with the strange symbol of robes being washed in blood, but being made white. Yeah, it's interesting that of all the references to blood throughout the scriptures being stained with blood. But when we're talking about the

Savior's blood, it's a cleanser, which speaks of his mission as the atoning one. Though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow. Though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. John is hearkening back to the lamb from chapter 5 here at the end of chapter 7. Let's go to verse 15. Therefore are they before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple. And he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They don't hunger. They don't thirst verse 17 and the lamb, which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them. So we're still in the throne room, or at least we returned to the

throne room and God shall wipe away all the tears from their eyes. There's at least at the end of chapter seven there, there's something that has a non-Bible scholar. I can at least pick up on that. The Lord and his saints are together. He's cleansed them and they are doing his work. This is such an important parallel from what's going on outside where there's really peace in the throne room. This is a place where God is wiping away the tears from his saints' eyes. And we're going to see eventually, next week, that when the millennium comes, this is something God is going to do for all of the saints, wiping the tears from their eyes, removing suffering. As we read the book of Revelation, particularly as we read the next two chapters, it's some hard reading.

These are verses that really focus on what the tribulation is going to be like, about things that are going to happen, earthquakes, persecutions, terrible diseases. The reason I like the end of chapter seven is perhaps I don't know what all these chapters mean to John's original first century audience. As Chris is pointing out, here's the lens of the restoration on these chapters. But for me personally, as I'm just reading through the book of Revelation, that speaks to me, the end of chapter seven. These are they, which came out of great tribulation, wash their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. They serve God in his temple. God dwells among them. That's verse 15. They don't hunger.

They don't thirst. The lamb, which is in the midst of the throne, feeds them and leads them into the fountains of living waters. And God wipes away the tears from their eyes. I don't know what the first century saints would have felt with this, but I can feel the power of that while I'm in the middle of tribulation and difficulty and pain. There are places like the temple that I can go to and have that peace where I feel fed by the Lord. I feel my tears being wiped away. I was a young single adult, and I needed some answers. And I went up to the Provo Temple, and I don't remember why, but it was closed. Somebody in the little parking booth there said, well, why don't you just go around the back on the grounds?

And I did. And the way the Provo Temple is designed, you go back there. I could just hear the sounds of the city and everything just go, and just completely disappear. It reminded me of recently when President Ballard spoke about, if you can't go, just go to the grounds. It's sacred ground, and you can have a revelatory experience on the grounds if you want. Also, Chris and Hank, when I saw God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes in verse

17, and these shall come out of great tribulation, just letting us know it's going to be hard, but there's hope. There's something wonderful at the end. God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. I was like, wait a minute. I thought that was at the end of the book of Revelation, and I saw the footnote, and yeah, it is. And listen to this in Revelation 21.4, and God, which is pretty amazing, God himself, God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes, and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, for the former things are passed away. For the moms and dads out there trying to teach this, you can always focus on this hope and good things to come. That beautiful verse, Revelation 21.4. President Nelson said just

recently, 2021 General Conference, he says, if you don't yet love to attend the temple, go more often, not less. Let the Lord through his spirit teach and inspire you there. I promise you that over time, the temple will become a place of safety, solace, and revelation. And then I feel like this quote fits Revelation 7 so well. Whenever any kind of upheaval occurs in your life, which sounds like the four horsemen, conquest and war and poverty and famine and disease, death. Whenever any kind of upheaval occurs in your life, the safest place to be spiritually is living inside your temple covenants. As you are true to your covenants made in the temple, you will be strengthened by his power. Doesn't that sound like verse 17?

The lamb, which is in the midst of the throne, shall feed them and lead them unto living fountains of waters, and God shall wipe away the tears from their eyes. When spiritual earthquakes occur, says President Nelson, you will be able to stand strong because your spiritual foundation is solid and immovable. I don't know what the first century audience heard, but to me, the end of chapter seven says, have you been to the temple lately?

Have you made your appointment and gone in? I think that's really powerful. I lost my mother this summer. My parents weren't members of the church, and I can't imagine a greater sorrow that I've experienced. I'm still experiencing, but the temple does. It makes me feel closer to the Lord. I know by keeping those covenants, I was able to feel his presence in this moment that everything wasn't going well. And I think finding that in the temple is a wonderful thing we can do. It's a thing he wants for us. Revelation reminds us that. But the temple also brings us solace through its ordinances, including work for the dead. That means a lot to me. As I think about wiping away tears right now, those are the tears that

I am grateful that he helps me wipe away, and one day will completely, literally wipe away because of the ordinances of the temple. That's awesome, Chris. It sounds like chapter seven, we've sealed the servants of God in their foreheads. Now it seems to me, as I've read, this is where things get really dark. Is that right, chapters eight and 9? Yep. We're going to have some angels with different judgments that they're going to pour out on the earth, which is, it gets a little dark there. If someone says, the book of Revelation is scary, they're probably talking about these couple chapters. Something that I think is important when we read Revelation is one of the criticisms of apocalyptic literature. Sometimes people imagine that the reason these stories are

told or these descriptions are given is because we're supposed to rejoice in the suffering of our fellow men. And I don't think there could be anything less true. Section 109 of the Doctrine and Covenants is Joseph's dedication of the Kirtland Temple. And it has a verse there that I'd like to read. Section 109 gives us a lot of wonderful material. Just like in temple dedications today, the prayer is about the building, but it's also about the world. It's about all sorts of things. We're meeting together to pray with the prophet or one of those he selected to dedicate the building.

What I love in 109 is it's really the answer to this. There have been people that read the book of Revelation and think, this sounds great. Let's get those bad guys. What Joseph says, he says, he's praying similar to that prayer we saw in section six, how long, O Lord, deliver thou, O Jehovah, we beseech thee, thy servants from their hands, those untoward generation he talks about, and cleanse them from their blood. But then in 43, it says, Oh, Lord, we didn't blight not in the destruction of our fellow men. Their souls are precious before thee, but thy word must be fulfilled. Help thy servants to say with thy grace, assisting them.

Thy will be done, O Lord, and not ours. And then he goes on and talks about this judgment that we're reading about here. That's really important to remember that our role is to share the gospel. Our role is to never delight in the destruction of our fellow being. We're hoping that people repent. We're hoping that people change. The book of Revelation is the story of a world that's fallen and how it's going to be redeemed. And that does mean, as we read on here, that wicked governments are going to collapse, just like Daniel prophesied in Daniel 7. All the thrones will fall. The world's going to get messy. And the reason it gets messy is so the Savior can return and redeem it. Other things have to fall that a new situation can be brought about.

That's really the key to apocalyptic literature. Different people are going to read it and recognize different settings and say, oh, this is that government Rome, in this case, toppling, so that the Savior can come back and bring forth a new Rome or a new Jerusalem, a redeemed people. When the Savior comes, the only way to contrast it is to talk about how awful and terrible it is without him. It's a great and terrible day. Great and terrible. And we're used to pointing that out in Isaiah. We have these prophecies that come, the destructions, and then the blessings.

And the book of Revelation functions really the same way. For most of our conversation today, we're having God's work. God is preparing that great things can come, even though destructions have to happen. He's going to prepare John. He's going to prepare the 140,000. And then we have to talk about some of the hardships that can occur. As we finish the book of Revelation, we're going to see that contrast, that these great things are going to be brought about, particularly those last two chapters where the Savior himself at the Perugia, he's there with his people. Let's jump to chapter 11. Here is a scene that is a beautiful type of certainly the Savior's life story told this way. Here we have persecution of two witnesses, of two prophets, messengers, who are serving

in Jerusalem. We don't know the identity of these two great prophets, but the Lord tells us in section 77, Doctrine and Covenants, this time we're in verse 15. He says, what is it to be understood by the two witnesses in the 11th chapter of Revelation? Answer, they are two prophets that are to be raised up to the Jewish nation in the last days at the time of the restoration and to prophesy to the Jews after they are gathered and have built the city of Jerusalem and the land of their fathers. So important to remember, the Book of Mormon makes this clear, that the events of the last days have two main theaters, two main capitals eventually,

the old Jerusalem and the new Jerusalem, the new world and the old world. And in this, we're being told, here we are, Joseph explaining to his American listeners, and we're focused on the Book of Mormon, right? We're focused, it's 1832, we want to find where the new Jerusalem is going to be built. We're really focused there. And now he's pulling us and saying, look, this section here isn't about us, might be us as witnesses, but this is about the Jewish nation in the last days. This is before Orson Hyde gets sent over to dedicate the Holy Land. We're already learning that things are going to occur there. And this is a powerful chapter in chapter 11. These two witnesses, here it says, I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, three and a half years, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees and

the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth and devour their enemies. And if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. All right. This is a different sort of missionary work. I think of the prophet of Benadi. I have to give my message. This is what I'm doing. You don't have power to hurt me until I've given my testimony. And this is what they're experiencing there. They're facing a real persecution. Eventually in this story, they're allowed to be killed. Verse 7, and when they shall finish their testimony,

the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them and shall overcome them and kill them. And their dead bodies shall lie on the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom in Egypt, where our Lord was crucified. And people are rejoicing. They're so excited that they're able to kill these two prophets that have caused them a lot of trouble. And now we have a moment of triumph where two men who are bearing their testimony, two witnesses, there is their resurrection. They are literally brought back to life. After three days and a half, the spirit of life from God entered into them and they stood upon their feet and great fear fell upon them, which saw them. And they had a great voice from heaven saying unto them, come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud and their enemies beheld them. I think this is the fulfillment of that prayer, the last martyrs,

because now wrath is going to come. Now is the moment. The same hour, there's this incredible earthquake in heaven. They know what's really happening, not what we're seeing on earth. And in heaven, the seventh angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven, they know what's really happening, not what we're seeing on earth. And in heaven, the seventh angel sounded and there were great voices in heaven saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever. This is the taking the power back, the great revolutionary, which is Jesus Christ, restoring the earth like it was before. This is that turning point. It's very powerful. Chris, I'm tying this back to chapter six, when we were talking about those who had been slain because of their testimonies. And they're asking this question, how long, oh Lord,

until you avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And he said, rest a little season. So that was Revelation 6, 10 and 11. And a little season so that was revelation 6 10 and 11 and now you're tying that to chapter 11 when it's now time to avenge the blood of them their brethren has to be called and brought there too so these two are the last can you just imagine this that two martyrs go three days their bodies are defiled, and then they're resurrected in the presence of all their persecutors. And I think that people are very aware that they've done something wrong at this point. Things are going to change. A lot of John's visions, they jump back and forth, just like Nephi. He's seeing a moment

in history, kind of an overview. This is the sixth seal, the seventh seal, people saying, let the mountains fall on us. Now we're turned back there in this moment. We had kind of an overview and then we're digging deep again or we're zooming in again. The temple of God was opened in heaven and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament and there were lightnings and voices and thunderings and earthquake and great hail. And that's the end of a vision, at least a major component of a vision. I can see a lot, again, of Old Testament references in chapter 11, verse 4, the two candlesticks, the two olive trees. That's Zechariah. Verse 6 seems to me a little bit like Elijah,

the power to shut heaven. It won't rain. It seems like a little bit of Moses in verse six, power over the waters to turn them to blood, smite the earth with plagues. And then the bottomless pit, Daniel chapter seven. Again, to really understand the book of Revelation, I'm seeing, man, I really got to understand my Old Testament, that he's hearkening back to some of these stories that I think his readers would automatically pick up on. But those of us who don't spend a lot of time in the Old Testament, we might miss. There are some Christians who see these similarities and they think, you know what, this must be the prophet Elijah returning, one of these two figures, because they see those similarities the same way.

Not how we view it. These are prophets like Moses and like Elijah. Even though I don't know what all these symbols exactly mean as we've gone through them, is it fair to say so far, and either of you can comment on this, please do, that so far John is saying things are really terrible and difficult for the righteous. God is blessing them along the way. Things get even darker and more difficult for the righteous. Chapters 8, 9, and 10. Chapter 11 is kind of this culminating martyrdom. And now we're going to turn it around?

Yes. Seems like a really good movie where things are going well, and then they go really dark, and then you think they're going to go well, but they go even darker, and then comes the moment where Gandalf comes over the hill, right, and saves the day. I love that. J.R.R. Tolkien calls this the you catastrophe, the positive catastrophe, which his example is Gandalf doing that, but also the Savior. Things get really, really dark, and then the light breaks forth. And we're hinted in that exactly in that verse that said, the seven angels sounds, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

We had a tradition in our family, we need to start it up again, of going to the Handel's Messiah sing-in where everybody brings their own music. And there's a Utah Symphony and a Utah Symphony chorus, but then sometimes the conductor turns around and invites the whole audience and the chorus to sing together. I had done that a couple of years and just thought, why is this so powerful? I kept noticing in the musical score, scripture references. So the next time I brought my Bible and was following along, I just can't help it. Verse 15 are the lyrics of the Hallelujah Chorus. The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.

And he shall reign forever and ever, and he shall reign, and he shall reign. And everybody in the whole building is just singing this. Nobody's performing for anybody at this point. That part is in the Hallelujah Chorus. And at the very end, the coolest thing happened. You stand for the Hallelujah Chorus anyway. That's the tradition is you stand for that. Everyone is clapping for the conductor

and he has the orchestra stand up and we clap for the orchestra. And then he looks at the chorus and we all clap for the chorus and then he kind of points to the audience and the chorus kind of claps for the audience like oh bless their hearts they did the best they could right and then the coolest thing happened when the conductor picked up the score of Handel's Messiah and held it up. And the place went crazy for George Frederick Handel and Hallelujah Chorus.

I'll never forget that moment of this really inspired music of the conductor holding up the score. Thank you, George Frederick Handel, for this. And I was just really touched when it just hit me. Oh, the reason this is so powerful, all of the lyrics are scripture. That was why. So that's my little story about Revelation 11, 15. That's the hallelujah chorus right there. That's a great story, John. And as you sang it, I realized that was true, that it is in the hallelujah chorus. But I didn't know that. That's very powerful. Yeah.

Oh, I have to tell you something funny along with that. At the very end of the Hallelujah Chorus, forever and ever and ever and ever. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. And then there's a fermata. John, you're giving us a whole concert. A whole concert.

Right. And then there's a fermataata and you all have to wait. And one time my father-in-law came in too early on the final. So the whole place is silent. And he's so funny because he tells people, yes, I soloed with the Utah Symphony. So we all learned, watch the conductor during the fermata. But Chris, before we get to chapter 12, I can see, and maybe you guys can just chide me here, but I can see a little bit of human gratification from the first century saints. Rome's going to get it. We're going to get them and God's going to get them.

And there's a little bit of that in the last days too. Like, oh, I'm so tired of sin and evil and on the earth. And it's going to get them. And there's a little bit of that in the last days too. Like, oh, I'm so tired of sin and evil and on the earth and it's going to get it. Isn't that a little bit what John's after? I don't speak German, but there's this word, what is it? Schadenfreude. It's taking pleasure at someone else's suffering. This makes me feel good. I think people, at least the way they read it, could walk away feeling that. It's a test in the text. It's like reading Psalms, and there's moments where they're applauding the suffering of people. I like what Joseph is telling us, that we should never delight in the suffering of our fellow men. It reminded me, too, of when you read that verse

from section 109 of the dedicatory prayer, their souls are precious. That phrase was Alma's phrase when they were about to go teach the Zoramites. And when he begins his prayer, he's like, how long do we have to behold such gross wickedness? And by the end of the prayer, he kind of softens and he says, behold, oh Lord, their souls are precious. And many of them are our brethren. Maybe softens during the prayer. But he uses that same phrase. Their souls are precious.

All souls are precious, which reminded me of that. Let's not say, when are you going to get the bad guy? When are you going to make him suffer? But the prayer of God's kingdom coming, I think is really the undergirding of this that we're hoping the world is unjust. As Latter-day Saints, we don't need to wait for a corrupt world to come in. We recognize it already has a lot of problems. We're not waiting for more. God's going to fix this. Joseph says that for 6,000 years, mankind has their efforts to build a kingdom, to build peace on earth. We're ultimately not

going to be able to do it. And so for the 7,000 years, it's the Savior himself that takes the reins. I want that. I know we all want that. Unfortunately, it leads to some darkness. Yeah. Instead of seeing in chapter 11, verse 15, the kingdoms of this world are becoming the kingdoms of the Lord. It's not the destruction, per se, that we're looking forward to of those kingdoms, but the coming of the kingdom of Christ. We're not excited about the demolishing the old house. We want the new one.

That is the repeated prayer in the Lord's Prayer. Thy kingdom come. And here it is. Keep this in mind. Thy kingdom come, because this is what we're about to read. Please join us for part two of this podcast.