followHIM - The Family: A Proclamation to the World Part 2 : Dr. Jenet Erickson

Episode Date: December 12, 2021

Dr. Jenet Erickson returns to examine “The Family: A Proclamation to the World '' and how social science, psychology, and spirituality intersect in this aspirational and inspirational document that galvanizes Saints to become better stewards in their families, wards, neighborhoods, and communities.Show Notes (English, French, Spanish, Portuguese): https://followhim.co/episodesFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/followhimpodcastInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/followhimpodcastYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/FollowHimOfficialChannelThanks to the followHIM team:Steve & Shannon Sorensen: Executive ProducersDr. Hank Smith: Co-hostJohn Bytheway: Co-hostDavid Perry: ProducerKyle Nelson: MarketingLisa Spice: Client Relations, Show Notes/TranscriptsJamie Neilson: Social Media, Graphic DesignWill Stoughton: Rough Video EditorAriel Cuadra: Spanish TranscriptsKrystal Roberts: French TranscriptsIgor Willians: Portuguese Transcripts"Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise" by Marshall McDonaldhttps://www.marshallmcdonaldmusic.com/products/let-zion-in-her-beauty-rise-pianoPlease rate and review the podcast.

Welcome to part two of this week's podcast. John, I would love to have you read this next paragraph if we move on. Does that sound good? We'll do it. The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity.

Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. There's just so much that, right, in that most powerful. Oh, goodness. Yeah. You'll remember when Elder Christofferson quotes Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of my heroes, um, as, as writing a letter to his niece and she's going to be married. And he says, you think that this love is just between you and your fiance, but it is a post of responsibility.

And he says to the world that in your marriage is a post of responsibility to the world. And when I look at the data, just right, the reality that the breaking of family structures, so children who experience divorce or who grew up outside of the bonds of marriage or who born to a single parent, and just what we see is the risk to them, even after controlling for socioeconomic differences, for controlling for things is twice as likely to have serious challenges in every aspect of development. So physically, emotionally, psychologically, academically, all of those things. And so when you look at family structure and it's in social science, right? We're just working with meager human means to measure effects, but there's so much data that shows the power of a nuclear family for children in terms of providing the greatest likelihood for their thriving, growing up with their mother and their father who are married, that they'll even say in sociology, it's law-like. It is so consistent that there's just no other institution, Brad Wilcox, not our BYU Brad

Wilcox, but UVA's, no institution reliably connects to parents, their money, talent, and time to their children the way that marriage does. This is a very vulnerable part of our population. And we talk about trying to make a family or a child-centered culture because some people will say, you know, when we're in a post-marriage world, the marriage rate has dropped and people are so much older. We're in kind of a post-marriage world. We need to just have a child-centered culture. And you just cannot replace marriage as the institution that secures for children what is essential for their

thriving. And so when this statement is made, it just shows up so powerfully. Marriage is essential to the eternal plan and that children are entitled. The reason we care about marriage as a church, the reason there was concern about its redefinition with same-sex marriage isn't because of a rejection of certain people. It's because we care so deeply about the most vulnerable among us who have no say, right? They don't have any say. They enter life in that structure that they're born into, and they don't get to decide what that is. And we as a society, we absolutely have an obligation to protect the likelihood of them growing up in the relationships that will increase their chances for thriving and development.

It sounds like that you're saying the research clearly shows. It's, yes, it's law-like in nature. as much as you can say social science research is law like, right? It just is profound. And that's why I love what you're saying here, because I can come from a here's what I've learned from the gospel background. But you are saying all of this is backed up with social science and research. And and the proclamation is restating something that is well-founded. When I taught Jacob 2 and 3 the other day to my class, and I showed them statistics on outcomes of fatherlessness. And there are so many single moms out there just working so hard, and we love you and support you and sustain you. And so, please

don't look at it that way. You have a village around you in your ward family and everything. The stats on fatherlessness, as you just mentioned, what were the words you said? Academically, financially, socially. So, this is just saying most likely to be achieved, you know. And so, this is the ideal we're stating again, a mom, a dad, a mom and dad loving one another, loving their children in a home. And it's not to say that divorce isn't absolutely the right thing to do, right? In some situations, it's my husband, his parents divorced when he was just six and they were not members of the church. He's a convert to the church. And he described it so interesting coming to understand what that gap

had created in his life and a deep witness of the savior's atoning power to heal all gaps in our lives. I came from an intact family, but I have needed the Savior as He has needed the Savior. And I think it's just powerful how we learn over and over again. This is a statement from the handbook, I think as well. Individual circumstances may prevent parents from rearing their children together. However, the Lord will bless them as they seek His help and strive to keep their covenants with him. And I will tell my students, many of whom have come from these structural challenges, right?

That were not ideal. Just what gifts that can be as they care. They have a view of things that is special, right? They understand the pain that comes when parents are not united. And sometimes that can be the most profound motivator to help them do things in a way that I may not even think about, right? To care deeply about doing things in a better way or what they have learned from those experiences, how it's taught them about the Lord's love. I just, because of Christ, there is no permanent

loss. That's just absolutely true. Even though we look at this data and want to appreciate the realities that for children, this structure of married father and mother is the best setting, right? For their growth and development. And as a society, we have to care deeply about that. We are so grateful for the redeemers giving us a chance to grow on earth and redeeming it all, right? One of my favorite statements of the prophet Joseph Smith, when I think about single moms, single dads, just things out of their control sometimes. He said, all of your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful by the vision of the Almighty.

I have seen it. How can you deny it? Right. I have seen it. Yeah. All of your losses will be made up to you. And so Hank and all of us spend a lot of time, all three of us here with a lot of young adults. Right.

And so, yeah, you've come from that, but this is helping you prepare for you're trying to put together your ideal, trying to strive for that and to reach that. So live in such a way to prepare that you have the best chance for this for you. Yeah. It goes back to what Janet told us earlier, which is make sure you pair the family proclamation with the living Christ document. So when you feel the pain of having less than the ideal, you can now turn to the answer, which is the second document that comes just, what, five years later. Also, I was going to say the word entitled is rarely used, right? It's often a negative thing, right? That's a good point.

You feel entitled. And then here, so I think that when, if the prophets and the Lord are gonna use this word, we better look carefully that children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony. If someone has an innate right, we better, and it's declared by God, we better be careful with that.

Yeah. Yeah. When they're most vulnerable, when they're completely helpless and they have no say in it, as you said, Janet, and they're entitled to, uh, reared by a father and mother who honor marital vows. That's, that's the ideal. That's what we're shooting for. And I would just say wrapped in one sentence, happiness in family life is most likely to be

achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. That is a lifetime worth of study in one sentence. I teach the New Testament. We've gone through the Doctrine and Covenants this year. There's so many other scriptures. Just the phrase, the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ is enough to give you, there you go. It's a lifetime effort. Yeah. I talked to a woman the other day, her name is Averla Sorenson, and she reads, she's 88, she reads the entire standard works every year and the book of Mormon twice every year, every year. And that is, um, she is looking for the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. She said, I want to know, I want to know. So if, if anybody out there thinks, well, I, I think I've, I've, I know the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ pretty well. I think we have a, there's a lot we could go, there's a lot we could do there. So Verla, this is a shout out to you.

Give me her contact info. I have some questions. When I have questions, I'll get with her. She reads them every year. She says she's gone through the entire thing 47 times. Wow. 47 times. Hank, I- Sorry, Janet, I cut you off. No. 47 times. Wow. Hank, I-

Sorry, Janet, I cut you off. No, I just love that. I love this truth that the Savior, after I was 34, we were 34 when we were married, and what a miracle to find each other. And I'll never forget within that first three weeks of marriage when you encounter some struggles, right, or vulnerabilities and sensitivities, and all that I'd studied, I would think here, it all comes down to the truths of the Lord Jesus Christ, that those teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, right? Of all that he teaches about turning the other cheek and patience, love, but then also honesty and not judging and all of the

profound teachings that are there. I just thought it's all encapsulated there. If I were to tell anybody throughout the world, what's the best way to have a marriage, it's stated right here. It is founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. What a gift. I've told my students, we get married in the temple over an altar, right? And if we are over an altar that represents sacrifice, usually represents the atonement, you are there getting, you are declaring to the world, you are basing your marriage on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, right? That's where we're going to bond right here. We are going to make our covenants right here on an altar. And then also the altar means sacrifice,

that happy marriages often mean sacrifice. And they're built- It's not all about you anymore, right? You were speaking of Elder Hafen, John, I think he quotes Elder Maxwell as saying, what is that sacrifice? What is it that we sacrifice? And of course, we know the broken heart and contrite spirit, but he says, the animal in each of us is what we are laying on that altar.

And thinking about myself, right? How marriage and children exposed to us, the animal in each of us is what we are laying on that altar. And thinking about myself, right? How marriage and children exposed to us, the animal in each of us and the hope. Vistas. Yes, the vistas. Yes. And how the Savior says, I will take it. I will purify it. I will cleanse it.

I will change it and give it back to you, right? In a whole way for your relationships so that you can have joy in relationships. Jenna, is that why the life of the first child is so different than the life of the last child? And Hank, we only have been sent two. And I think the poor burned pancakes, it takes at least two pancakes to get it right. And I'm like, oh, bless us, bless them. Oh, that's so funny. Yeah. I'm the burnt pancake. That's the oldest term, right? Because I just remember I've learned so much. And by the time we're on baby four and five, John, you got to

baby six. We had changed as people. The process of parenting had changed us entirely. I like our friend Jack Marshall talks about with the first baby, if they spit the binky out, oh, you go rinse it off in the sink and maybe put some Listerine on it, make sure it's disinfected, you know, plug it back in the baby's mouth. The last baby, it falls in the dog dish. You don't care. You know, they've got antibodies. Don't worry about it. You know, you find out these little humans are pretty durable. Thankfully, thankfully. That next part, Hank, maybe do you want to read the happiness in family life after that part?

Successful marriages. Sure. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith prayer repentance forgiveness respect love compassion work and wholesome recreational activities by divine design fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.

If we go back to that beautiful list, isn't it so profound that it starts with faith? We've just been talking about faith. I love that. Remember faith. talking about faith. I love that. Remember faith. Remember faith. And I love that verse in section 130 where we're taught, right? There is a law irrevocably decreed, right?

Upon which all blessings are predicated. And I think I love President Nelson talking about the many laws, right? That we obey laws and there are blessings that come. But it says a law and it's beautiful to think what is that one law? Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Every good thing comes from obedience to that law. And it's beautiful to think, what is that one law? Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Every good thing comes from obedience to that law. And with all of our need for healing, with our need for hope in getting into marriage, right? It is faith that takes you through that, right? It's what carries us through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whatever Jesus, my friend Wally Goddard, whatever Jesus lays his hands on will live.

And so at that altar with family being formed, it is with Jesus Christ at the foundation. So of course it starts with faith, right? Faith is the first principle. Then you've got prayer and all the data on prayer. It is just, President Hinckley, you know, would say, I know of no other practice, and his wonderful voice, maybe John could do it, that will have so salutary an effect upon your lives as will the practice of kneeling together in prayer. There's this great scholar, he's not a Latter-day Saint, Frank Fincham, and he's done his career looking at these things that people do kind of in their religious practices and what they mean for marriage. And prayer is incredible. So I mean, they'll put people in experimental groups. You pray for three weeks and you don't pray for three weeks. And it's just really interesting how he'll say what it does is it shifts them from a focus on

their own needs to the needs of the relationship and the behaviors that will be beneficial. It builds trust. It softens conflict resolution. It facilitates emotional connection. It's just beautiful to look at what prayer can do for couples. And he'll say, praying as an individual. So maybe your spouse doesn't pray with you, but praying as an individual has powerful effects. Praying as a individual, so maybe your spouse doesn't pray with you, but praying as an individual has powerful effects. Praying as a couple has powerful effects. And to see in science, literally, the power of God come into a relationship through prayer is a beautiful thing to witness. And family prayer.

I think my dad came from a place where until his quadruple bypass, I don't remember him ever saying, I love you. Maybe I could count him on one hand. We knew he did. We're not damaged. But in prayer, when everybody had their eyes closed, he could mutter things about how he loved his kids. That was so cool. And I can remember because dad was great on gather around the bed.

We're having family prayer. And some of my greatest memories, as odd as it sounds, is when somebody during family prayer, it could sound really odd, would start to laugh and we could feel the whole bed shaking. John, we're not surprised those are favorite memories for you. Oh, we'd look up and we'd see that it was dad who was cracking up. He was cracking up. And it bonded us together in a family because now my mom was, oh, oh, you guys. But my poor dad just, he would start laughing, but he could tell us he loved us in a family prayer in different ways.

That was a little harder face to face because of his own background. And so I want to put a plug in for family prayer, too. You can talk to your kids in prayer and tell the Lord how much you love them in a family prayer. And they'll be listening. It is powerful. In John 17, the Savior does that in intercessory prayer. He talks about the apostles who are listening to him pray. And he compliments them.

He uses prayer to build the people who are listening to the prayer. He says, Father, they're not of the world just like I'm not of the world. He's building these people. Oh, and in 3 Nephi, the joy that filled our hearts when we heard him pray for us, the way they said, oh, he's talking about me right now. And yeah, we can do that for each other in our families. You can thank the Lord for my wife sitting here. I can thank the Lord for each of my children by name and have them hear that and feel it. I love that there's research on that. That's so cool.

It is awesome research. It's just really fun to see that. So when you hear President Eyring talk about, you know, when you pray a family that's praying, even if they're separated geographically, they are one in heart. I don't know how many times I've had students say what it meant to them as missionaries to know their parents were praying for them, that their family was gathered in prayer for them. The power that that gave them, the security, the strength, and it just is real. It's real and we see it in the data.

I just say amen to this thing about prayer. Thank you. I remember President Monson's son saying he was out fishing with him once. And as they were just sitting there fishing, President Monson looked at his watch and said, your brother is about to take the bar exam. Why don't we say a prayer for him? And I'll pray and then you go ahead and pray. He said, that's what I remember about my dad is that he'd use prayer. It wasn't a, okay, it's time for bed. Let's pray.

It was okay. It's in the morning. Let's pray. I'm sure they did that, but it was a practical use in life of how we're going to connect our family and all over the globe. John, you've had your kids in France and in, in Iceland. Iceland during a pandemic. Yeah. And in the.

Can't leave their apartment. The foreign nation of Tucson. Tucson. Yeah. Hopefully off to Tahiti soon, but yeah. The prayers of, they're still included. Just this morning for my girl in Tucson, you know, and I'm thinking too of, do you remember the Elder Neal A. Maxwell story? I mean, he's in the front lines in World War II. His mother apparently across the planet, get out of bed, we got to

get underneath, we got to pray for Neil right now. And he put those time, the timeframe together and found that was a scary time for him. Just, I love that there's research on that. That's really interesting. I think it changes us, right? And brings unity. It brings miracles. There's no question. But it changes our hearts in the process of praying.

And that's what enables those family relationships to be strengthened. So- And who are we praying to? Our Father. Yes. Our Father. We're all brothers and sisters. Love it. Then you have repentance. And just the research on, you look at someone like John Gottman, the guru of marriage, right? And him talking about what is it that predicts divorce and what leads to divorce. And you see these features of blame

and defensiveness and this link between shame and the inability to be accountable for what you're doing, right? And take responsibility, that kind of diffusing your anxiety or diffusing. And you just think, oh, this is all the research on relationships. It's coming back to repentance. These truths about repentance, being able to say, I'm sorry, and own one's thankful for a savior who makes this a safe process, right? For us to grow. Anyway, it's just all over in family relationships, right? What repentance means. Do you know who Kenneth W. Matheson is? I have a book called Living a Covenant Marriage that was edited by Doug Brindley and Dan Judd. I just remember underlining in Kenneth Matheson's chapter, I believe, he said, if I can just get a couple to apologize to each other, no, my problems are almost solved.

If I could get that spirit of repentance in there. Yes. It's the crux, right? As a marriage counselor, yeah. Faith for prayer, repentance, and forgiveness, right? Yes. It's the crux, right? As a marriage counselor. Yeah. Faith for prayer, repentance and forgiveness, right? That's forgiveness. Yeah. You got to get that. Connect those two. He's done work on forgiveness as well. And that is a really powerful set of data on the power of forgiveness, which we know from the gospel, but it's, it isn't that beautiful sequence,

right? There's repentance and forgiveness, and they depend upon one another, right? They go together. And respect comes next, which is, it's almost as if, Janet, it's saying repentance, forgiveness, and respect is part of this of not committing that same sin over and over and over without boundaries. Yes. Right? That there's a respect there that I correct these problems. Yes. Yes.

I, you know how president Hinckley, he would talk so much about respect being the foundation of marriage. If you, you just, the core, the core characteristic you need is respect for one another. You think that description of a,

of a young man, we know right from the early Christian texts, when Adam saw her, he couldn't help but stand. And it's this feeling of, I am better because of you. But that isn't right. When you're bothered and irritated, you might forget the divinity of the person in front of you that's given their soul to you. And so reminding, I think intentionally, right, Hank? So Gottman will say those four horsemen of the apocalypse of a marriage, right? The four predictors of divorce. And he, it's incredible. He can predict divorce with 95% accuracy within five years. He's just an

incredible science around it. But he would say when there is criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. Stonewalling is when you just walk away. You won't even engage, right? I can't stand this so much. I'm walking away. The four horsemen of the apocalypse. Apocalypse of the marriage.

Criticism. Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling. And contempt is that eye rolling, right? It's mocking. Defensiveness is sayingwalling, and contempt is any, it's that eye rolling, right? It's, it's, uh, it's mocking. Defensiveness is saying, you did it, you did it. And not taking responsibility. Stonewalling is, I can't even sit in here and talk to you about this because it's, and he'll just say, right.

I, I, when he teaches us, I'll think this is what you watch for when you enter and it's, and we all can, right. We can all enter into that world of criticism, just bugged as we, you know, bugged as can be at this person that we love so much and, and, and being on guard to respect that person, right? And, and stay away from care from attributes of, of that are not respectful. Isn't it interesting? I think in our marriage, we feel like if everything's okay in the marriage, we can deal with almost anything else out there in the world. Cause I have this refuge to go home to my marriage is intact. I crazy about my wife. I love my wife and, and, oh, it's just so nice to have that rock when other things out there are difficult and

finances and pandemics and earthquakes and riots and fires. But I have this refuge with my wife, with our marriage. It's meant to be that way. Janet, I wanted to ask you about respect for children. This is one that I find fascinating and I've had to learn over the years that just because someone is a child does not mean you can disrespect them, talk to them the way you would never talk to anyone else, right? Just because they're your child. And I find myself sometimes falling into that trap of you're my child and I would never talk to another child this way ever. But I would talk to my own child that way. It seems disrespectful. Yes. That has been very painful about myself and something to face in myself.

I've been thinking a lot about section 121 and what we learn all throughout the Doctrine and Covenants. I was just hearing Barb Gardner talk about this, but where power comes from. The Lord is teaching us all throughout the Doctrine and Covenants about what his power is like and how it's used. He's wanting to endow with power and what that power. And then in section 121, he says, no power or influence except through these beautiful virtues, right? Patience, long suffering, meekness, gentleness, love, unfeigned kindness, pure knowledge. And Hank, I read it. And I think I cannot have influence in the lives of these people who I

care so deeply about unless it is through God's way. And when I speak disrespectfully, which I do and repent of, try to repent of, but when I do, I am not drawing on the source of true power and influence. He's teaching us about parenting, right? That's what he's teaching us. And how we influence one another is based in his way. And when we don't do it that way, we're outside of that source of power. So thank you. It is respect. John, you will laugh at this. I have a distinct memory of my daughter who is now 17 as a six-year-old, she was six. And we were having a discussion in which I was being disrespectful to her. And she put her hands on her hips, I remember. And she said, how come you sound so nice on your talks? And I remember that moment of, hey,

how come you sound so nice on those CDs? I have my talks quoted back to me all the time too, because I got a big mouth that's got me in trouble. But Janet, what you said, because we're talking about repentance and we kind of focused on marriage, but I found there's such power in repenting to my kids. You guys, I lost it there when the house was like this or sorry about that. And I think that's an

element of respect, repenting to my kids for that they see, look, guys, I'm in the same boat. We're all trying to live the gospel and I fall down too. I wonder if every parent has had those moments where the child is now asleep, sitting by their bed, just saying, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Look at you. You're so sweet and wonderful. And look what I did.

Isn't there a great story from Elder Holland? And they really are when they're asleep. They're so cute when they're asleep. They are so sweet. He said he got after his child, who's now a general authority. Oh, yes. I remember this story. What did he say, John? Later on, he had a dream and the Lord said, you should never, I would never treat you that way.

Didn't he mention the look that he got from Pat? Yes. I mean, that's the dagger. He was just like, oh, now I got to fix my marriage and my kids. So grateful for this plan of redemption and not the plan of perfection in family. I wrote that down. That is so good. I need that.

It's a redemption. Right. And you think that is what family, we've never been in families before. We've never been parents before. We've never been married before. We haven't had this emotional experience before. And we need, we need redemption and how bonding it is to apologize. I tell my kids that. This is my first time as a father. I tell them,

you guys, this is my first pandemic. Am I doing this right? That's great. That next set is love. And I think we've highlighted, here's President Kimball of two people, love the Lord more than their own lives, and then love each other more than their own lives. Working together in total harmony with the gospel program as their basic structure, they are sure to have this great happiness. This, I think, General Conference theme of loving the Lord with all our hearts, mind and strength and loving our neighbor as ourselves. And it's- Boy, wasn't that a theme? Such a theme.

And it's not, it's something we intentionally choose, right? I don't always feel those feelings. I don't always feel like saying, I love you. And what a beautiful thing that this is agency-based. The Lord is talking about an agency-based love. You can act with love. Love is a verb. Love is a verb.

Yes. Thankfully. Love is repentance. Love is a verb. Yeah. There's no falling in of love, falling out of love like we had nothing to do with it. Yes. It just happened to me versus I choose to love.

Yes. Like I just, it just happened to me versus I choose to love. Yes. Do you know, Hank, I'm glad you said that because when I've tried to talk to young adults about what does it mean to fall in love? Most of our education has come from songs on the radio and TV shows, which is like the worst possible database imaginable, right? And so I researched this because like Janet, I was 33 the day I got married. And I was like, what the heck is wrong with me? And I'm reading and I found these beautiful statements by President Benson, by President Kimball. And when I boiled it down, I felt like you find someone that you respect and admire.

And that's lasting. And so, I'm so glad respect is in there because I, to this day, respect and admire my wife and feelings of love can go up and down and I'm thankful I still have them. But the respect and admiration is what I tell my young adults and my kids now to look for. Someone you respect and admire who makes you want to be a better person and that they can respect and admire you. When that's mutual, that's just awesome. Jason Carroll, who's such a wonderful scholar in love and marriage, he'll say, he'll talk about we get the fruits and the roots mixed up. Love is the fruit of loving, right? Of that agency-based, it's the fruit of actions and what you've described there of respect, that it breeds that love. So when we talk about

falling in love, it really is choosing who you're going to choose to love every day. And that's an important choice, right? You want someone you want to choose to love every day. And that's an important choice, right? You want someone you want to choose to love every day, but it is going to be a choice to love. And I think, Hank, as you say, for children as well, choosing to act in love. That next part is compassion. I love Brene Brown. She'll say the way you get rid of shame, the way you get rid of it is compassion. Compassion is the connection. Empathy is the way to repentance, kind of a path of that. And then we get to work. And I had the privilege of working with Kathleen Barr, who was a scholar on family work.

And when we say family work, we're literally talking about dishes, laundry, all those things that are part of family life that are just dismissed as being this entropic, have to redo over and over and over again. And what in the world is this all about? And her scholarship on this, she would start with that scripture of Adam and Eve being, cursed shall be the ground for thy sake. And its role in family life. So she has this list. She'd say, family work gives us endless opportunities to recognize and fill the needs of others. It is an endless opportunity to enact love. So we just talked about love and just doing the dishes and caring for one another and doing that kind of work together is an endless call to enact love. The second thing she say is it leaves us, it's the kind of work you can do with your hands and talk at the same time and connect and all the conversations that are

possible because your hands, your mind is free in this kind of mindless work that family life has made up so much of and how many important conversations happen over laundry and over dishes and over that, right? Gardening and that are important. She'll say watching children, a wise mom, a child at dinner struggling, she could tell. So she wisely calls the child to work beside her, pulls the chair up at the sink and they'd asked at dinner, what's bothering you? He wouldn't say it. Six-year-old boy wouldn't say what was bothering him, but they're beside her at the sink with hierarchy dissolved because you are standing beside one another in this work together. How his heart was opened to ask the question he'd been worried about. And so it, it, it,

family work has this way of dissolving boundaries because we're all doing it together and there's nobody better or worse or higher or lower. Right. And, and that that opens conversation. Even the smallest child can make a contribution. My little sister, Sally, she'd wake up late. Her job was to set the table. And I remember saying, getting up late one day and saying, no one could eat if I didn't set the table. And just that feeling of I matter so much. And I know I matter because I have a job to do, these tasks to do. She would just say, it has the power. These are daily rituals of family love and belonging. You know you're in a family if your name's written up to do vacuuming because the guest name isn't written up there, right? You know you belong. And that it's this power to transform us

spiritually as we work to serve one another physically. So I think I just feel so grateful for her view, even though it's not always fun. I can just say at my house, I'll have those beautiful truths in my mind and think this is not fun working alongside each other, trying to get this child to participate or trying to write, but somehow having a view for the potential that it can have in our family life is a blessing. I'm thinking of sitting in primary, singing those songs that they were trying to convince me of something that was counterintuitive. When we're helping, we're happy and we sing as we go for we love to help. But I'm like, no, when I'm helping, I'm not that happy.

This is not true. That's so great. I see what you're trying to do here, primary teacher. Aren't you so grateful it ends with wholesome recreational activities? I think that the data on that is just incredible. They'll talk about this experience of flow that happens between people when they're engaged in something that's physically a little bit demanding and also meaningful in terms of a goal that they're completing together.

And there's this bonding that happens. And it can be as simple as all the things you probably naturally do, dancing in the kitchen and laughing and telling jokes and all of that relieving from the burden of everyday kind of life. This lifting us to recreation, to being recreated together, renewed together. So I love that. That's fantastic. Yeah, just going out for that Sunday bike ride. Yes.

Oh, I ask my kids, you know, you can spend a boatload on Christmas presents, but then you ask them, what was your favorite part? Oh, it's when you sat down and played a game with me. You know, it wasn't the bike. It was a little bit of time. That general authority who describes, right, taking their family on a big trip. I think it was a church history trip of some kind. It was a little bit of time. That general authority who describes taking their family on a big trip. I think it was a church history trip of some kind. It was, yeah. And at the end, asked his son as they're laying down looking at the stars.

And this son talking about, it was time with you, Dad, that meant everything. I love that, John. Not the trip, not the big events, but these that are the recreating of our relationships. The moment we just chatted. Yes. We just did something together and talked. Hank, you went ahead and read that beautiful part about fathers asked to preside over their families in love and righteousness and mothers.

And it lists those three Ps, preside, provide, protect. And I think the data on this is so interesting in that when you look at, I can just quote a couple of powerful things, but when you think about what the role of fathers in providing, sometimes we diminish that because there can be this, right? A woman can provide as well and earn money and has many opportunities to do that today. We surpassed women having more jobs than men in January of 2019 in the United States. But when we look at where children thrive and the effects of poverty in children's wellbeing and the effects of single parenthood with relationship to poverty and children's wellbeing, you just cannot overestimate the significant work of fathers in providing. It is so powerful

and important. And I think for women, so often I've done lots of data on what women's preferences are in terms of work. And you'll find out that women that have the greatest amount of choice, meaning they're married to someone who is providing, they are not the primary provider. Their choice is not typically to work full time. Some do and enjoy that, but they want to be able to be free to care for their children and prioritize the needs of their children where they feel irreplaceable. And that providing that a father and a husband does is incredibly, incredibly beneficial to mothers and children. So I think we can underestimate that.

And you're speaking from research right now. Yes, yes. Yeah. Then there's protection. And there's something very interesting about the role of fathers in protecting, um, just by their sheer size, their voice, their presence in that family. And, and researchers will describe it.

It's like they signal to, they just signal to potential predators. This child is going to be protected. Um, you were talking about fatherlessness, John. And one of the interesting data points is what father's presence in the life of a daughter means in terms of her sexual trajectory. And some will say his presence literally sets the sexual trajectory of her life, meaning her likelihood of engaging in relationships that would be destructive to her too early or with people that would not be good. And it's like he signals and gives her, it's like she walks out of the door, even if he's not there, that dad's not there beside her with a sense of what she should expect from the men who are around her. And a sense that I am protected by a father who monitors, cares, and watches over me.

Men are very important in signaling that protection. It's really beautiful. And then, of course, we have that presiding. And I love tackling presiding because presiding is a tricky word, right? We get this notion of president and he's like, there's one that makes the decisions. I think we can get a sense from the church that what it means to preside is that he is the ultimate decision maker, the bishop or the stake president. And the truth is in marriage, it's a partnership of equals. There is no president. When you kneel

at the altar, you kneel as equals. There's that beautiful triangle, right? Christ in the center and you are equal and the authority is outside both of you. It lies in God, right? And so there's some powerful statements. A husband and wife are equal. This is from the handbook. One should not dominate the other. Their decisions should be made in unity and love with full participation of both. Adam and Eve set an example for husbands and wives. I think right there from the beginning, you have Eve seeking greater light and knowledge. She partakes of the fruit and she comes to Adam. She explains why and he hearkens to her. And then in a sense, she is dependent on him offering those beautiful ordinances of salvation through his priesthood keys that allow her access to eternal life.

And so you see this beautiful interdependence. She enables life procreation, the creation of life. He enables access to eternal life through sacred ordinances and covenants. And so in some ways, it's these beautiful interdependent equals that Adam and Eve show off this rib, this rib metaphor, they are equal side by side, right? And, and perfect complementarity and equality in their relationship, hearkening to one another, coming to a decision together. And yet there's an interdependence in that he depends on her for this life to come. And she depends on him for the ordinances of salvation. And he presides in offering those ordinances of salvation to his family.

Blessings and baptism and confirmation and ordination. And she offers life, right? This continuation of life. I think the word preside can be threatening to women. Yeah, because of unrighteous dominion. There are men who have used priesthood to say, I'm in charge and have been bad about it, have been widely inappropriate. Inherited traditions that way, right? But John, I think women are asking. So when President Eyring says what it means to nurture

is he actually says you are the primary gospel teacher in the home. That was 2019. And I was like, did he just say that? Wow. I think we've assumed some responsibilities that way that may not be right. So in the handbook, it says presiding in the family is the responsibility to help lead family members back to dwell in God's presence. This is done by serving and teaching with gentleness, meekness, and pure love following

the example of Jesus Christ. Presiding in the family includes leading family members in regular prayer, gospel study, and other aspects of worship. So it is highlighting fathers as presiders and ensuring these things happen. That's from the handbook of instruction. Then it says mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. To nurture means to nourish, teach, and support following the example of the Savior. So in both cases, it says following the example of Jesus Christ. In unity with her husband, a mother helps her family learn gospel truths and develop faith in Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.

Together, they foster an environment of love in the family. So in the handbook, it does distinguish, right, fathers being helping lead family members in prayer and gospel study and other aspects. But it talks about them both being nurturers in gospel instruction, right, helping learn gospel truths. So they're both primary gospel teachers in a sense. And he's given that special responsibility of ensuring that these structural pieces are in place, the family prayer and family scripture study and other aspects of worship. So, I'm really glad to hear that reference from the handbook, but that question still comes up. We can't get our husbands to take the lead. And I have always felt like, even if I just say, everybody, come downstairs, we're doing family, my wife is so appreciative, even if I just say, everybody come downstairs, we're doing family. My wife is so appreciative.

Even if I'm just sending the message, this matters to me. Family prayer matters to me. And that he, she wants the kids to see that family prayer matters to dad and family home evening matters to dad. It feels like women are, they, they tend to feel they're doing so much to orchestrate family life. They feel so responsible, right? Getting children signed up for the activities and homework and lunches and right, whatever else. And to have, to have him say, I am going to make sure this happens and I'm going to do it in a way that is with love and meekness and gentleness, right? I'm going to call us to that lifts a burden. I do believe that.

And maybe, maybe the question is how we decide those things because the challenge, it's interesting that the preeminent principle here is equal partnerships. We have these stewardships, but the preeminent principle, the overarching principle is equal partnership. And so if it ever feels like in his presiding, there's some inequality, right? You botched it, right? And I think that has to do with deciding together. And so maybe it's as simple as deciding together, just saying as a husband and wife, it would

help me, right? If you did this, this is how I feel. If you took and deciding that process together, so you feel like you bet we've been equals in making the decisions. And if she decides, actually, I want to do the calling for family prayer, whatever, if that's what seems to be best for their family, because you're gone or for whatever else, we've worked that out together. So it wasn't one person deciding. It was us making decisions about how we do family things together. Who's helping with the dishes? Who's earning? Who's right? All those things are kind of brought out into the open as we want to create this equal partnership in collaborating around this family together.

This is what's hard for a woman is she'll feel like I, we want to have this happen. And I actually feel bad. Like I'm overstepping to call the family for prayer. And so when president iron says, you don't need to feel like you're behind him in being the primary gospel instructor, you're responsible for that. And so then she feels like, okay,

I'd love it if you did this, but I'm going to make sure this happens and I'm not going to feel bad. Right. About, about making sure this happens. Nor should I. Nor should I. Yes. The good thing that's happened of all of this discussion is the phrase in here that's so important is they do this as equal partners. Equal partnership is the preeminent and overarching principle. Nurturing and presiding are subservient to equal partnership. That's just the truth. And so these stewardships, equally sacred, equally important.

Here's President Ballard. Do not involve any false ideas about domination or subordination. Each stewardship is essential for the spiritual progression of all family members, parents, and children alike. I mean, we've talked about presiding and providing and protecting, but to underestimate the influence of a mother, I'm going along in research and I get to this statement. This is hundreds of studies. I get to the statement that says maternal sensitivity, and that's a measure of maternal responsiveness, maternal engagement. It's not being a perfect mother, but it's someone who's responding to emotions and not being intrusive too much, that kind of thing. It's the strongest, most consistent predictor of a child's cognitive, social, and emotional

development. And John, you know how much fathers mean, but literally from the birth of that infant and even in utero, this, we can now watch neurobiological data allows us to watch the brain grow of that infant. And, and now researchers will say that growth happens from within a relationship. It can only happen from within a relationship. And it's a mother's body, mind, and heart, literally growing the body, mind, and heart of that infant. And you can watch how her right brain, which is the emotion side of the brain, the moral side of the brain, the relational side of the brain is doubling in size in that first year. And it's literally her right brain to that infant's right brain is having this incredible

communication process. It is so amazing. And it's, and it's not, it's not the language side of the brain. It's not flashcards and teaching them words and all of that. It's literally from heart to heart, this language of love. These, these authors out of Berkeley will say through the language of love, the two of them have a common language years before speech, where that brain is literally growing in. And then dad, dad's influence steps in really powerfully in that 18 month to two year period where you see his relationship with that infant having a really, that toddler now having a very important impact. And so they kind of in sequence play very

significant roles that are complimentary in the development of that, of that from the foundations of life. So you just, when, when a prophet says, President McKay, she leaves a stamp on the development. She awakens the light of Christ within that infant, that is literally what is happening in neurological development. So we can't diminish what she means in the nurturing of life. And I think women have a sense for that. They have a sense of how significant that relationship is. And it's not to diminish men. In fact, if you could just, for me, I'll think this, this watching the complementarity between men and women, you'll hear this. When a woman has an infant, she's holding that infant. She coos and cuddles. What does a man do with the same infant? He tickles

and tosses that infant. And both of them are experiencing this flood of oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone, right? My husband who'd never been around a baby, he's an only child. He has no young cousins. He'd never seen anything like that. Within just days of us, that night we bring her home from the hospital, he's doing calisthenics with her. And I'm like, what are you doing with her?

Right? And then for me to study, he's having a flood of oxytocin, which is this bonding hormone. He's forming a bond with her. I am. And the same hormone in each of us elicits different behavior. In me, it elicits cooing and cuddling, a wrapping around. In him, it elicits stimulation, excitement, openness to the outside world. And you just see that all across development. You see fathers, mothers will hold, they'll hold, they'll have a child and they'll be talking to the red ball that's in front of them. And they'll describe it. The mom will say it's red. It's a ball. Dad takes it, bops them on the head with it or bops them on the belly with

it, the same ball. And, and both of them have this remarkable complimentary way of influencing the domains of development, their social development, their cognitive development, their emotional development in distinct and absolutely foundational fundamental ways. And it's not really who's working or earning the money. I mean, we think about that kind of roles, but all this power that's happening just in their physiological makeup that invites them to interact in ways that allow for development to be whole. You'll watch parents behind a child helping them with a math test, right? They're having a little test and the mom will step in. Remember how to do this? Remember how you add these questions together? She does that. He's sitting beside the same child and says, you can do it. You got this.

And you know how to, doesn't step in. And so you'll see, right? Some scholars, Andrew Ducey would say, you watch dads. He'll say to that child, put your own backpack on, make your own lunch, right? And the mom's like, what kind of sandwich do you want? And the dad will say, make it, make it. You know how to make it. And she said, at first it looked like, oh, dads are just, what are these selfish,, right? Disengaged. And then saying nurturing involves two core fundamental processes. It's holding close and it's letting go. And dads are particularly adept at facilitating the growth needed for independence. He'll say, you can do it. Go higher, go higher up that tree. She's saying, get down here. He's saying, go higher. I'm underneath.

I'll catch you. And so encouraging risk-taking from a place of safety is what he's doing. Creating a foundation of security and identity is what she's doing. And both are really core to healthy development. You see a dad, one last example, my husband, he would hold the baby and he'd hold her like a football. He'd never seen, like he'd never watched anybody hold a baby. But as soon as he gets LaDawn in church, he's holding her like a football. And I'm like, what are you holding her like that for? Right?

And you see that all the time. Men will tend to hold that baby looking outward at the world. And she's wrapping that infant. And it's emblematic of what their influence is because dads, John, as you noted, fatherlessness has so much to do with academic achievement. It's the biggest predictor of college graduation. It's incarceration rates are related to presence of a father. that child relates to the outside world and that mother is building this core. And I'm just saying it roughly, right. But, but their complimentary capacity to influence development as emblematic.

And even the way they're holding that child is just remarkable. So we, we need them. We need them both, you know, in their uniqueness. I love this. So interesting and so true. Okay. We end the proclamation, you know, with needing to necessitate adaptation,

individual adaptation, and that extended families play a role when support is needed. And I think that's the whole family of God, you know, ward families, aunts and uncles, cousins. I love sister. I remember hearing once Sister Beck share a story, but just how influential the men in the relationship of the family who'd had a father leave. How important those bishops and young men leaders were, their presence in their lives. And you just can't, who can say what the influence of intact families is on those who aren't in intact families, even if they're not biologically related, just the power of that example and home and connection. You know, some of the things I've heard recently is the young adults are asking, you know, why do we need a church again?

And I think you just answered some of that. It's interesting how much my students will talk about leaders and how they were coaches or teachers. And they'll say what I saw in them as a father, what they were like as a father, what they were like as a husband. So the power comes in strengthening their relationships, interesting, right? Their capacity to have those kind of happy relationships. That's where you really want to be an influence, right? Is helping them know what these beautiful relationships can be like so that they have the opportunity to establish those in their own lives. The one thing I was going to say is this would be a great plug for everyone who wants to hear more about Preside is our episode 31 with Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner.

Oh, that's wonderful. We went through section 84 with her. If you haven't heard that, if you're listening to this podcast saying, oh, I'd love to hear more about this, go back into our podcast and go to episode 31 on section 84 and listen to those because she did a spectacular job of teaching us about men and women and presiding in priesthood. It was spectacular. Absolutely. Thank you for mentioning that. She just, yes, understands this so deeply from a scriptural standpoint. Yes. There's that we warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse spouse or offspring, or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable

before God. I think that paragraph just really sobering, right? For all of us who are struggling to be what we want to be in family life, probably growing in that way. And then those who intentionally participate in destructive acts, just it's a very serious thing. These souls that are given to us, these vulnerable souls that are given to us. That's interesting. Jenna, it also doesn't say those who don't live perfectly, right? It doesn't say that. We warn that individuals who are not perfect parents will stand accountable for God. It's violating covenants and abuse. I've always loved that the Book of Mormon starts out with a dysfunctional family. And if that sounds too strong, hey, let's kill Nephi. No, let's kill, oh, I'm sorry, Ishmael died.

Let's kill dad and Nephi. Then we'll all feel better. And Soraya's going, what are you doing, Lehi? I am writing all this down. What are you, what? Our family problems? Who are you gonna send that to? Every nation, kindred, tongue, and people, right?

And to me, it gives me comfort that the Book of Mormon starts with a family that had their own ups and downs, their own problems, and that children as different as they are described can come from the same parents. And it's not a perfect family, right, Hank, as you were just saying. Right. But he does put a strong boundary up on violating covenants and using family members. That's a very firm boundary for the Lord. It's a sobering, important boundary that is not going to be shied away from. Yes.

We have to take it very seriously, right, Hank? It's interesting around the world when we look at cultures and we see really strong traditions that can be very diminutive and destructive to women. And there is just no question that there are patterns that abuse and diminish and do not see women as equals. And so when we see cultures rejecting marriage, they are rejecting a distortion of what marriage is intended to be. What our heavenly parents embody, which is a perfect equality, a beautiful complementarity, a oneness. And that

is the vision the world needs of marriage. It does not need a vision of traditional problematic, gendered ways of dividing and oppressing. It needs a vision that God has given us, our heavenly parents of equality. So we have to take very seriously when women are by nature, they are physically less strong. They're less sexually overtly driven. And so they are vulnerable. They are vulnerable to the size and kind of physical power and potential abuses of men. And so just by nature, and that's what the beautiful teachings of priesthood, right? Are this is what this looks like. This is what priesthood power looks like.

Both men and women are endowed with priesthood power and the keys that men hold teach them this pattern of service and kindness and respect and an honoring and anything, anything that is outside of that is not of God. There's a lot to work on in the world in terms of understanding equality. I'll tell my students, your generation is tasked with this beautiful task of understanding equality between men and women in ways that has not been understood before. And it will bring great power into the church and into families. And I think it starts with women knowing more who we are and the power that we have been endowed with and what God would call us to do. And then you get this ending statement that says, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations calamities. And it describes calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets. I think when Carl Zimmerman's looking at the rise and fall of nations, the rise and fall of all the great empires, and he's saying this hinges on the

disintegration of the role of the family in society. And to take very seriously its core central role in the thriving of individuals, of families and communities, that we depend on families as the foundations, right? That's why it says it's the fundamental unit of society. I looked up the definition of calamity, and if you don't use that word very often, you might not hear the gravity of it. It's a disastrous event marked by great loss and lasting distress, a state of deep distress or misery caused by major misfortune or loss. Wow. Just so we're clear on what a calamity is.

Just one comment. There was a writer, she's marvelous, Mary Eberstadt, Catholic writer. She described during the really intense difficulties, the rioting and very intense difficulties during July, July of 2020, right? When we're in the heart of these very big challenges. And it was interesting to have her insights on Patri, the fatherland, the father of a home and the father of nation and the role of these protective institutions. And when they're not in place, so fatherlessness leads to chaos. That's what you see, John, in that data, right? Fatherlessness is, it's an untethering of the grounding in the relationships that lead to health and civility and strength. And so she was just

commenting, we have lost God. We have lost the sense of fatherhood in a nation. And we have lost our fathers in this tremendous culture of increased fatherlessness. And what you will have is you will have chaos, people searching for something to look to, something to find, and the destructiveness to society. We can throw that out, but it's a very powerful comment about the relationship of families in keeping cohesive, structured ways of relating the civility of society. We see the fruits of it. Would it be correct to say that in your experience, the proclamation, the family proclamation is, though not answering every question that any human being can have in their own experience, they need to have that personal relationship with God. But in general, it seems like the family proclamation is backed by social science across

the board. Yep. Unending, to be honest. It's really remarkable. Yep. For sure. And I think that's because it is experience, right? When we talk about social science research, all it is is gathering experience, experiences, real experiences, and immortality. And so we will see evidence of the laws of God play out. Of course we will. But never to be used as a weapon. I liked what you said in the beginning. Don't use this proclamation as a weapon. It was never intended to be used as a weapon.

It's a light. It's an ideal. Yeah. Jenna, this has just been a spectacular day for us. I think our listeners would be interested in your experience as a social scientist, a PhD, and yet a very faithful member of the church. Can you walk us through that, your experiences, your journey? Yeah. What's your experience been with your education and your faith? I appreciate you asking that, Hank. And it makes me think of an experience.

I was sitting in graduate school. I was sitting amongst wonderful, wonderful fellow students, none of whom shared my faith. And I had been sometimes told, well, you've been protected. You haven't known things because you've been kept away from certain ideas. You've had less academic freedom because of your religious upbringing. And these religious truths you've been taught about the family. I'd sometimes had people say that. and I will never forget sitting there. And into my mind came a lesson that I had instruction I'd received as a nursing student at BYU about the eye. And the eye can see only with

light. It requires light to discern shadows and shapes and colors. And as I sat there, I was filled with gratitude for the blazing source of light that the gospel of Jesus Christ was in my life with those two foundational teachings, the gospel of the Savior who redeems us and the family proclamation to the world. President Oaks puts those together and the light that allowed me to see, to discern shadows, to discern shapes, to discern what I could not have seen without that blazing source of light. And I don't know how I would express gratitude enough for prophets of God, for a redeemer who loves us, who sends messengers to communicate truths for the purpose of enabling us to experience

love, his love, and to experience love together in the relationships that matter the most. And when we don't, to redeem us so that we can have that eternally. And I just think the proclamation is just a profound gift. I think I said before in that nine paragraphs, the distillation of literally thousands of social science studies into succinct statements is just could only be divine. And I am so grateful for it and bear witness of it with all my heart and with my mind as well, that has been exposed to studies about that, that it is true. And we can see it as a blazing source of light to guide us. And with the Savior walking beside us, enable us to receive those beautiful blessings eternally of deep relationships of fulfillment, like our heavenly parents experience. And I leave that testimony in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Amen. What a great day. John, by the way, what a great day. Absolutely. So good. I will see this document differently from here on out, and I think a lot of our listeners will as well. We need to thank Dr. Janet Erickson. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you to all of our listeners. There's now hundreds of thousands of you out there, and we are grateful for each one of you. Our brothers and sisters.

Our brothers and sisters in this big family. Thank you to our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson, and our incredible production crew. We have Will Stoughton. We have Kyle Nelson, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, and the, uh, incredible,

uh, wonderful, beautiful David Perry. Cause it's his birthday. So we had to kind of give him a wonderful shout out. Um, we hope that all of you will join us on our next episode of Follow Him. We want to remind everybody that you can find the podcast on social media.

We have an Instagram page. We have a Facebook page. Our wonderful Jamie Nielsen runs those. So come on over and check out all the extras that we have there. And if you want to go to our website, followhim.co, followhim.co. There's even transcripts there, John, in French, Portuguese, and Spanish. And please take time to rate and review the podcast.

That really helps us out.