Fore Play - Pinehurst via the President, Ugly Putts, and Holding On At Augusta

Episode Date: April 16, 2020

From The Gallery delivers today in a big way. How many stroke lead would you need on 16 tee to win the Masters? Is the golf galaxy club testing full of shit? Then, the president of Pinehurst, Tom Pashley (58:45), sits down for an hour to talk everything Pinehurst with Riggs. In depth, fascinating interview with a very important man!You can find every episode of this show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Prime Members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. For more, visit barstool.link/foreplaypod

Hey, 4Play listeners. You can find us every Tuesday and Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. I'm in a new house. We had Jake Owen on the last show. He was excellent, very different than I think we thought it was going to go in a great way. Phenomenalienericion. People love Jake Owen.

He is a mega star like we discussed. Lurch has just a huge ice coffee that is. That thing's huge. Mason jar. That's what I live off of. Best cups in the world. When you hold that up with your mustache, you look like the biggest hipster in the world. Hipster, really?

Yeah. You have to move to Brooklyn. Somebody said I looked like Tom Selleck the other day, which I really appreciate it. Yeah, you either have to live in Brooklyn or Austin or Nashville. However, I'm doing nothing underneath the lovely Peter Millar quarters of it. Somebody said the other day that that is the most post-sex look you could have, and I couldn't agree more. You just got done and you're just looking for something to put on to go get a glass of water and you just throw on a quarter of it. I think it's more just like waking up in the morning

kind of like maybe a fall morning, a little chill in the air. You walk outside. You need something kind of warm to put on to grab the paper, grab the paper, maybe kind of like a morning fart out there and you come back in all happy. Can we talk about golf here? What the hell are we talking about? I think that's more what to look for. Okay. All right. Far, I don't want to think about you. It looks out. Can no one have a smile around here? Frankie, you're all bent on his shape. You're all tight and can't laugh. You're just worthless.

You guys have to fight each other. Worthless. Wow. Worthletitude's worthless. What a word. We're going to talk golf. What a word coming from the most unfunny, almost unfunny person in the universe.

So you guys just shut the fuck up. We have Tom Pashley. I'm going to sit down with Tom Pashley later today, who is the president of Piner's. Everyone on the show has met him before. He is a fine. Fine. Gentlemen, he is the, like I said, the president of Pinehurst.

We're going to get into, you know, what they're dealing with right now. They've had to obviously lay off hundreds. I think over 1,000 employees. We're going to get into the history of Pinehurst. He worked his way up in the latter. He started as like a basic, like sales associate, worked his way all the way up to being president in the entire place, adding the cradle, renovating number two, restoring, renovating Pinehurst number four with Gilhant, everything that goes into those decisions.

decisions and the history and Pinehurst kind of place and all of it. So passion is going to be great. I'm very confident in him. I know you guys are as well because, like I said, we've all met and hung out with him before. He's awesome. He's a man. Yeah, always happy.

Always smiling. Unless you guys are at each other's throats, you just don't have much to add, huh? No, he's just, no, he's always got a little smart. Passion, he's a great guy. Well, yeah. Yeah, I just think he's a really nice guy.

We met him at, we had great dinner with him at the brewery. was awesome and the islanders were playing uh like a seriously big game that night and i remember had it on my phone and like he was like into it like watching it being like what are you watching over there and we were at the brewery like going crazy it definitely wasn't a playoff game so it was just like a regular they were on that they were on that streak oh yeah they were on like a big oh yeah it was this year yeah they were on a uh it was this year man yeah it was november so we're month in of the season. Oh my God.

That feels like years ago. I know. I thought for sure that was last season. That's crazy. He was supposed to be playoff time right now. How wild is that? Everything is best out. He was,

he was so nice, man. And you meet a guy like that with so much power. And he like runs such a big, you know, fucking resort, like the Disneyland of fucking golf. But like not in the, in the,

way, but more of like the shuttles and like the red roof on the Carolina hotel and stuff like that. Like really reminds me of like, man, what's that hotel? I'm thinking. Oh, what's that hotel I'm thinking of in fucking Disney? The Grand Floridian. You guys ever been to that one? Yeah, I know what you're talking about. When you go to Disney with the family, it's like people stay at either like the All-Star resort with all the kids or they stay at like the Grand Floridian, which is like, all right, the elites are staying there.

It's got the nice carpet, you know, you can picture famous people walking up the steps and stuff. So that's what I picture when I think of Piner's. And this guy runs it and you're like, you go up to him thinking, all right, this guy's going to be kind of like a dick stuck up. Like, all right, like he's better than us like because he runs this fucking huge place. But like he couldn't be more of a down-to-earth guy. Like it's actually crazy. They let him have the position that he has because he's so like normal.

Like I don't know how he makes like massive decisions for like 10 golf courses. It is. It is. You're right. He's such a normal, friendly, jovial guy. He kind of like he, even I laugh. Like before I even met him, he was DM in me. Like he would respond to some of my random DMs about us playing golf at different places

and was like chiming in because he was a listener of the show. And then after I met him, I ended up like finding out what his Instagram is. He responded to all over and things. I went back. There's just like a history of him responding, you know, and loving the show and loving kind of what we do. So he can do both, right? He can legitimately be like the Augusta National of kind of public resort golf in America and literally run that whole operation. And then also kind of get like the youthfulness and the future of the game. That's why they added the cradle. So I'm

pumped. I'm pumped to just kind of sit down and talk the history of Piners. He was there when Payne Stewart made his put on the 18th hole. Like he was just in the crowd as like, I think a legit low, low level employee at Piners. He was there like when that. happen and now you know 21 years later he's the president of piner so it's going to be really cool just down and kind of i think we're going to have a piner's brewery company as you mentioned earlier beer and we're just going to kind of talk piner's talk kind of the world today and quarantine life and and just shoot the shit for 30 minutes or an hour or something like that so that's the second half of the show i think people find it very interesting um jay going pretty much took a full hour so we got a bunch

from the galleries to get to we've got some headlines the pGA tour this sort of broke i guess was it late yesterday at the PJ tour will announce this week. It's planned to resume its season, June 11th through 14th at the Colonial, according to multiple sources. And the schedule's obviously tweaked and going to look different.

Kevin Kisner predicted as Trent Daddy is about to, I'm sure, fist pump and celebrate the John Deere Classic will have one of the great fields in the history of that shit tournament. It lives. It's got its same spot. Like it's the memorials,

is now where the Open Championship would be, which is in Ohio, which is right pretty close to Illinois. So if players, you know, want to go from Illinois to Ohio in those two weeks, I think they are going to be more than happy to do that. It's going to be a momentous event for the John Deere Classic. It's awesome. They're going to drape like American flags over the John Deers and stuff. Like it's going to be such a moment there because like one of the first ones back, it's going to be crazy. And like it's, this is everything that you've ever needed. because no one ever gives this tournament at the time of day, and now all eyes will be on it,

because if guys like Kisner and them start playing in it, I mean, we're going to have to watch it. I'm going to have to watch it. I mean, it's not under the circumstances that I would have wanted or that anybody would have wanted. You needed people to die for people to care about the John Deere Classic. Yes, you did. I didn't, it just so happened that we found ourselves in that scenario,

and now with the PJ tour trying to come back in mid-June, it'll be like the third or fourth tournament back. Guys are going to be wanting to play, and that's just kind of where we're at. What a headline that Trent roots for a global pandemic, closings of small businesses so that the John Deere Classic gets a little more eyeballs. Borelli's had to die so the John Deere could thrive. I'm sorry, I didn't mean that.

You're going to drink the tears of my dad as you watch the John Deer Classic. I guess that's not great. Speaking real quick of Borelli's with my dad. My dad wanted, he's actually out making and delivery right now. He actually wanted to stop on here. Maybe one day I'll like just have him. speaking to the mic he wants to thank everyone because we opened up this Venmo thing for barelli's and i tweeted it out like six days ago and it's gotten like a huge reaction um everyone

helping us out every so basically what we're doing is like like burrellys at one point like we were like talking about what we're going to do right like every small business is like like struggling right to not only pay their workers but like pay their bills and all the all the set of stuff and we have a huge restaurant a ton of food coming in all you know we have the our vendors won't stop delivering because they want to make money as well. So like you have all this expenses and you got to fucking make money. And it wasn't coming in. So I'm like, dad, like I got to be able to do something like, like you're working your ass off 60, he's 65, he's 61 years old, been working this since he was eight. So it's like, it's all this guy knows and he's working harder now than he ever did when, you know,

his whole entire life. And it's crazy. You should be retiring soon. And so he, you know, he started delivering on his own to like this epic foundation, which like helps people with epilepsy that they have a place right next to Borrellas. And these kids that all have like these disorders. And like some of them are just like mentally challenged. And the other ones have like epileptic, whatever problems. And like now they can't go to their place that they go to like learn and like eat there. And stuff.

So my, so they have like 250 people at this place. My dad was actually going to all these houses and delivering food to the epilepsy foundation because these kids can't leave their house. And I'm like, what do you do? Like this is crazy. Like you like it's amazing. But like you're, you're like, you're like. the business is like failing and you're out there like you know what I mean like at some point you got to make

decision so I tweeted out of memo link um you know just saying like uh we want to keep doing this but like like we need some help like my dad wants to help people it's just like we can't physically afford to do it as much as we want to it's all he wants to do so people started fucking vemoing and it's been great like honestly I think we're going to be able to like it helps because it's basically like when you Venmo to Borrellis it's like you're ordering food for a hospital or a nurse that's like essentially what you're doing you're ordering a meal. Like you may be from California or fucking Texas or whatever and you're allowing us to bring food to people. So now we've delivered already. It's only been five days. We've already delivered

two times a day for five days. My dad thinks that he's already served like 700 to 800 nurses and doctors at local hospitals. It's been insane. Like the other day we did 120 people and people are crying. Like nurses are so into it. They come down. They're all like geared up. It's it's amazing to see because they are in such a bad place right now working like 90 hour weeks and stuff it's crazy um but what i found on the vemo is that like not joking 80% of the people are four play fans like every single message underneath it are like frankie buttern eyes like hopefully you can use it like hopefully you use this money to help help good and like also get like wedge lessons and like like like i hope that like you figure out like the butternise one day like i'm a four play fan like love the golf coverage like

everything and my dad's reading it like are you kidding me that like all you got like you just talk about golf on this podcast and it's like not only like helping us but helping thousands it's going to end up helping thousands and thousands of people that are working and don't then don't have time to go out and get lunch and like I said we're not just doing nurses and doctors we're doing like legitimate people I can't leave their house like like it's it's a bad situation for those for those people in need so I just want to thank everyone for that because it's crazy like what you know like even like the average one could be five dollars and that just helps so much.

You know what I mean? Like it's just, it helps so, so much. So I wanted to thank you guys. I know my dad wants to thank you guys. So hopefully we'll get him on here one day. Yeah,

I'd love to get him on. We got to grill him about some of his antics out on the course too. I mean, well, he's, he's a problem. He's maybe the most off-referenced person who's not a host of the show. I feel like his,

his connectional cut out once that happened. So he's a legitimate problem on the golf course. Incredible. Well, good for him. good for you guys. Congratulations. Awesome.

And thanks. Yeah. I mean, thanks to all the listeners, everybody out there who's, who's jumped in and thrown some money. It's very, very,

very cool. And Stooley's always rally. It's really kind of shocking every time. You almost like, I'm sure you felt the frank. You like, you get kind of nervous putting it out there. A,

that it's like you're a little bit like embarrassed. Like am I really a dick try? And B, you're like, is anybody really going to give a shit or like contribute? And then it comes in waves and you're like, oh my God. So it's,

it was it was like an embarrassing especially for my dad he's like a proud business owner but like he's like I can do this he's like I'll do this on my own like we don't need any like I'll just do it well whatever whatever happens happens and I was like well people want to help I'm like you'll see this I'm like watch

because he didn't know like he's a big Barso fan now but he didn't like I don't think he understood like the gravity of like people actually like rallying around and the reach too like if everyone around the country gives like five or ten dollars it fucking adds up like and helps a lot so he's like he he's just been making so many, so many deliveries.

We're actually planning a huge one to a testing center because the testing centers are still crazy big, like 300 to 400 people. So it's going to be huge. That's awesome. It's awesome. Good for you guys. Good for you guys.

That's awesome. Congrats to Trent for the John Deer Classic. Looking like everything is going to finally fall into place, it took a global pandemic for anyone to give a fuck about it at all, but they are going to now. Congratulations. So you guys have seen a new schedule, obviously. Do you think it'll happen?

The plan is to do all those tournaments with no fans, obviously golf we had talked about before was likely the first sport to try to come back because by its very nature is sort of there's some social distancing involved i i think those dates seem i mean i don't know how it all works there's a big difference between going on playing around a golf during a global pandemic and putting on a professional golf tournament obviously there's going to be things that they have to do that aren't normal but i think i think it's possible and i think the world needs it obviously more than ever i think it's possible yeah i think i think it's more likely than not that it happens you know pretty close to the way that they're saying like 70 or 80 percent of kind of

the way that that they're saying it's going to fall but I mean it is crazy to think right now like I think in the majority of states or maybe half the states like you're not allowed to play golf so you get a fucking fine and sent to like jail so now we're going to in less than two months or exactly we're going to put on a professional golf tournament does feel two months is a long time but right now I mean it's been over a month that we've been quarantined it doesn't feel like things or at least outside and whatnot, like, better. Like, yeah, they're talking about how there's great signs and that the social distancing is working,

that we're flattening the curve and, like, if there's a delay and there's all that, so that it, like, takes time to really affect change in a good way in terms of, like, the growth and the curve and all that. But, like, it's been over a month, and it's not like we're in good shape now. So now in two months, we're just going to be able to put on professional golf tournament, I think it's more likely than not

because they get, testing under control and they can test everyone and like make sure that the fewer people that are needed actually don't have it. Then there is a social distancing nature to golf as we've discussed many times. So like I think it's possible. I don't think it's a lot. But yeah, let's call it like I think it's like a 60% chance. It happens.

That's what I think. I mean, the news is certainly uplifting that this is even like a possibility. So they must have some sort of insight that they can do this. I think the one thing that's going to be interesting is the logistics alongside the tour and how good the coverage is going to be and how many cameras are going to be out there. And does that maybe take a downturn so they can actually play the tournament? But I do think golf is the closest and it's nice to see any positive news in today's light. And if we could get some real sports on TV, that'd be amazing.

But I am interested in terms of how detailed the coverage is going to be. Yeah, the positive news is what we all need right now. but like it also scares me that like our mindsets are going to be kind of messed up like watching something like that because like even right now after being what are we like four weeks into this thing um i'm like first two weeks i was like every second like pure reeling like freaking out because i like like i still haven't left the house and i still am like cleaning but like i'm reminding myself now being like all right like i'm not going to get this thing at this point like i'm just like going downstairs getting the food coming up i'm like not even thinking as much as i was the first two weeks

i was like legitimately living in fear the first week right and like we still should be like that's the way the curve is going to stop but like i'm not mentally thinking that way because i'm locked in this room for a month so like if i start seeing like all these things coming back like i'm just going to forget that like i'm you know what i mean like i'm gonna want to go out and like walk around and go to a store like i need the whole i've said that i need everything to stop and then just come back at once like i can't have this slow burn but like whatever i'll take whatever i can get i guess at this point it's interesting you say that. I was talking to my dad last night on just like a walk just to get some fresh air.

And it's like I've settled into this life. So, oh, yeah. It seems like two years ago that you guys made fun of me when I rub the subway pole. Right. I mean, that seems like two lifetimes ago. Yeah. And we've just been living in this constantly. But I have kind of like settled into this life where I'm like, you know, a hobbit. Like I don't like I don't get outside much. I mean, I sit on this a deck and like annoy people with my loud voice. But I mean, it is, weird that I've settled into this like, you know, life of like not Purelling as much, just okay, but like I'm in this protected zone. I mean, I bought groceries last night. I did rub them all down in Purell before I like brought them in the house. But it is such a weird. Yeah.

Are you running low on Purell? Yeah. No. No, dude. I stocked up big time. Did you hoard all of it? And then I know the local, it's either a CVS or Walgreens, the local, but they get their shipments on Wednesday. So sometimes I scoot over there and pick up before people we get on. So I'm dialed in. You're a monster. Thank you. I just need the golf in New York. I need the golf in New York to come back. That's the only thing. Like, I was doing nothing wrong. And it was the only time I was, like, I was playing once a week. And I was playing just completely social distance at a, at a private course where no one's touching anyone. I was getting out of my car, getting on the T-box and getting back in my car. And that's the only time I walked. I took like,

yesterday at like 4 p.m. I had 127 steps. Like it's, I'm not doing anything aside from what I was doing when I was golfing. And this is going to kill me. I need to get out. What am I going to do, walk around the block?

Dude, that's what am I, what am I fucking old hugsy? Like, I'm not, I'm not putting on my walking shoes and walking around the block. I have a dog. I walk the dog actually,

but like, aside from that, I'm not just going to, what am I going to do? Like, walk around. Yeah, the step thing has gotten so bad.

The step thing has gotten so bad for me. New York that I don't even check him anymore. I won't look at the number of steps. Dude, it is true. Like, you settle in. Everybody's kind of settling in. This is the new normal. I hope it's not like that for a long time.

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So I went yesterday, maybe two days ago, early in the morning. I went to TrueSpeck. You guys heard of these TrueSpeck guys? They do like the very high-tech fittings. It's actually pretty similar, but a little more high-tech than the one that we did at Titleist. And they hit me up. They're like, you got to come over while you're here. Like, we'll give you the fitting and kind of run through your report.

It'll be funny and what that. And the big thing that I'd never had done is the putting. And so, man, that you walk in this fucking putting studio. And they've got all this technology. It's David Orr, who's kind of a famous, like, putting coach guy. This is like his operation and the true spec guys work. that same kind of lab. And you hit like 10 putts on this like high tech machine that's kind of reading it

from above from the side. You got to hit it in this little contraption. And then it reports to the computer everything that's actually happening with your putting stroke. And this fucking guy breaking down to me, this guy, right? It's crazy. Breaking down to me, my putting stroke from like a legit pure physics because the computer can read every millimeter of every movement you're making standpoint was

laugh out loud funny. And like, he was telling me, like, he's like, there's no such thing as the perfect putting stroke. He's like, even Tiger Woods like pushes his putts like two degrees or something, but like he knows that. And he like, whenever he reconfigures his putting stroke, he like reconfigures it because he knows his maximum like consistency level is like he can maximize his consistency with this open stance or he like barely pushes it like two degrees, blah, blah, blah. So like, there's no such thing perfect. However, ever like like putting stroke he was like it was so good he's like yeah so you bring it way inside and then if you actually released the putter like you're supposed to you would just push it like

fucking 80 degrees to the right and miss every hole by fucking five feet to the right so that's where your deceleration comes which is the exact opposite that you're supposed to do in any golf stroke or shot ever so what you do is you do like this way inside and then as you're coming through you decelerate so that you don't release it and you do kind of like a hold decel kind of cut thing across the ball and he's like you actually do it kind of consistently but it's just an awful but it's like okay all right cool and it was he legit i put this one image in the blog of him like when he first popped up on the screen he had like he looked at it like this like he just was trying to comprehend the whole thing it was um it was like

somebody just like you're standing there in a freezing freezing cold rain and like there's a massive crowd in front of you and then someone just rips off all your clothes and you're just standing there naked you're like oh fuck it was very it was very it was very I felt very vulnerable. Are you completely rattled now at this point? I was going to see how would you not be Nick Faldo is so in your kitchen that he's got you going to true spec and having physics look at your putting stroke. Nick Valdo calling Riggs Briggs and he knows your name is Riggs is one of the most dominating asserting of dominances I've ever seen in my entire life. Like he,

he just lets you know, like, who brings home the bacon and like, who, who runs the roost? Because, like, he's just like,

hey, Briggs, he knows your name is rigged. Like, that's the worst part. Like, he knows it. People around him,

tell him it's rigs. He sees your Twitter handle. When he types Briggs, that it, like, auto corrects to Riggs, and he goes and deletes it back to Riggs. It's like,

no, no, we call this fucker Briggs. And he just roast me. Like, every fucking day. Oh, when he said like your eyes, when you said that your eye surgery may have fucked up your putting and he said,

would they go through your hips, shoulders, arms and, and back like, it's one of the most diabolical things I've ever heard. I mean, that's like Max Holmes's dream to come up with something that meat. Dude.

And that's not like fucking, that's Frankie or Trent roasting me. No. Sir Nick. He's a major winner. Like, when Tiger Woods won the Masters, after Jim Nance,

said like the return to glory the next person to speak is sir nick faldo and he is just roasting me in a very mean like that was cool what he said to me that was i mean there were skull emojis all over twitter i was like i'm just trying to putt man like i suck i know it's so so now every time you putt are you picturing that like arc that you do like oh man like now you're just going to be pulling putts i can't imagine how many thoughts do you have over your head when you line up a putt you're not a bad putter so i you're a good putter I had this argument, or not the argument, I had this talk with Devon Tees texting me.

He's like, bro, what is going on with Riggs's putting stroke? He's like, he's getting roasted right now. He's like, he arcs the shit of it. I'm like, yeah, but like you played with him. Like, he's not a bad putter. Even like Brock Nelson was like, how does he score when he puts like that? I'm like, he, the guy figures out how to two putt. So you don't rebutt ever.

I don't understand. So like, why are you switching is my point? Like, what do you like, you think it's like? Because, Frankie, when everyone from Sir Nick to Justin Thomas to fucking Max Homa to Bucci, fucking Bucciagros. Bucigra said something. Roasting you. Put a fucking hookshot gift.

That's the best. Yeah. I just wanted to get the wording exactly on this tweet. So you said, Riggs, this is going to sound like bullshit, but no joke. I think my eye surgery messed up my pudding. Sprick bottle quote tweets and said, what do they go through your knees, hips, neck, and shoulders? That's got a cool.

5,000 likes on it. And you know that he said it with his accent. Like, what'd they go through your... Like, like, it's like, like, looking at his thing. Like, oh, would they go to your knees, with his shoulders? You're like, too, the visual of, like, them having to just correct an eye, but going through all of those parts of the body to get there. So, yeah, I mean, how would you not be rattled over every pot?

I mean, question was how many thoughts? I don't know. 11. Like, people, you know, like, all my DMs are and all my emails are, are, like, ways, like what I'm supposed to be doing better and different in my pocket. Even if you don't click on the DM and read it, like, you still can't erase. So would you go, you went nine for nine yesterday? And then you thought that that was it.

Like you figure something out. And then Max Homer said, that stroke has more arc than a Dirk Novitsky one footed fade away. Congrats though or whatever. And then Justin Thomas replied, everybody else just outside left and die it. Riggs. Cup one, cup outright, hook the hell out of it and absolutely hammer it. Just like the best putting display you probably put on yet during the daily nine. And you're just getting.

Made all of them. And it's like your standard is like we always get like if we put any of our swings, our putting stroke or our swings on the internet, we get a million DMs of people being like do this and do that. That's different than having Justin Thomas Max Homa and Sir Nick Faldo coming at you. What do you think it is about your game and your swing that like all the stuff you do is like unorthodox and people find it to be ugly and like gross, but you find a way to be like a five handicapped. Like do you find yourself to be more athletic that you're able to figure out

how to hit the golf ball when everyone, here's the thing that like I don't understand. Like people roast the shit out of your swing, but you put up better scores than 99% of people on the internet. It's like what are they doing wrong that their swing is better? Like me, what am I doing wrong that my swing is better? And I'm significantly worse at golf. Like how does that work?

How does that work? I think about it all the time. and if people don't think it affects me, it does. Like, I stand, like, I fucking go stand on the golf course, and I'm like, well, 11,000 people told me I have the worst swing in the world. How am I going to hit the fairway here? Like, what am I going to do? Yeah, I do think that's why, like, I know last year I went through the whole thing

where I was like, boys, I'm going to do a swing change. Because in my head, I got to the point where I was like, okay, the only reason, like, all they say about my swing and my putting all the time is that, like, I kind of barely save it, right? Like nothing is putting you in a place to hit a good shot, but like you're able to barely kind of save it. Like right at the buzzer, you figure it out. Because you had that like jump impact where like you were on both your tippy toes and like forcing your hands underneath and somehow you hit it.

But I will say I've seen that for years and it just works. So like if it's a game of misses, like you know you're missing and somehow you get it going. Like whatever. That's pretty much like I told the guys at TrueSpeck yesterday. Like, tell us about your game. And I'm like, well, you know, I keep it in play. with the driver. I don't hit a ton of fairways, but like I very rarely have to re-tee or like hack out. I hit no greens, but I like make no contact where the ball's up near the green, a pretty good

pitcher of the ball. So I get it within 10 or 15 feet, make some of them. And I shoot like between 78 and like 84 most of the time. And they were like, that's pretty good. It's not bad. So, yeah, it's kind of it. It's not to compare you to PJ Tour players. He got guys like Matthew Wolf and Jim Furrick, their swings are fucking disgusting. Dude, and they're some of the best in the world. And people ask me, like, why don't you just do this thing, like, differently? And I'm like, what, like, what, you know, I also, you got to realize, I've heard Jim Furek say this.

Like, in my head, when I take it back, I think I'm looking and doing, like, what Tiger is doing. Like, that's literally what it did. And, like, when you look, it's just not. So, you know, I don't know. I don't know. If it works, it works. The guy, so the guy that I ended up playing a match against last Friday who gave, he was like,

I'm going to give you 12 shots and then I just killed him. And he was like on the back front nine, I played like shit, which is fine. Back nine at Pioneer's number two from the blue T's. So like almost 7,000 yards, I shot 39 on the back. And he was just like, dude, I've watched your swing for years. And it's just hideous. And me and my buddies on our group chat, break it down, how awful it. There's no way.

He's like, you didn't miss a shot in the back night. He's like, I don't know how that's possible, but like, you just didn't miss a shot. Beat him like four and three. And it was like, yeah, I don't know, dude. I don't. That's just. I will say your game is in tune right now. I mean, if you have a couple misses in your swing and you can practice and hit as many golf balls as you're hitting, which is apparent to the whole world now, you're going to get every sort of miss in check.

Because when I played with you, I mean, you were flushing the golf ball. Yeah. I showed up. Like my ass kicked and off I went. I mean, it was not even close. It was. We won eight out of nine contests. I mean, we just killed you guys.

But I, like, I, uh, I just don't miss left. My new thing is I just, I found a way to never miss left. So like, if I hit a little spinny drive that goes like fucking 2.30 and misses in the right rough or something, it's just fine. It's not a problem. I had to get rid of that hook, that like hard pole left for a righty is just death. The ball never stopped rolling. It could be in an awful place.

So almost any hole, too, like, Lurch knows. I never miss long. I just don't hit the ball. I never really miss long. So, like, if you're short of most holes, you can, like, always have a chance. So I don't know. I just kind of, like, slap it around, add it up. And it's usually not too terrible.

But, boy, boy, are people in my head right now. It's just hard not to, that's hard not to be rattled. I got, you know, it just says what it is. Blake, so I got a bunch of pictures from Blake, our Hawaiian eight-year-old. Oh, yeah. What a sentence. Yeah, he's our Hawaii. He's our kid golfer.

That's what we're going to call him. Okay. It's crazy that he lives at in Hawaii. That always seems fake to me. It's, yeah, I mean, I've got a buddy, one of my best friends growing up, his family's from Hawaii. and his grandparents just live out in Hawaii, and it's unreal. Is that Pinehurst tournament we were talking about?

Look at this kid. There's Blake in this fucking trophy. How cocky this kid is. So actually, I think I got a DM from the dad, and he said he finished like in seventh out of like hundreds of eight-year-olds or whatever it was. Yeah. Finish T5 at Pinehurst,

107 of the best seven-year-olds from around the world. Blake finished T-5. I mean, he's going to kill us. Yeah. He's going to destroy us. he's cocky too he's real cocky which i'm intimidated by yeah obviously doesn't matter how old you are if you're if you got confidence i don't i'm scared if you're like will blake one day one day go up against uh charlie woods in like a in a professional golf tournament like should we is this our

is this our guy should we back blake and be like one day like this kid's gonna fucking or is that too much pressure on the kid how old is charlie i don't know 10 maybe i don't want to be a crazy parent, let alone. I don't want to be a crazy parent. I just want to maybe throw a little investment in the kid. Like, here's a head cover. Remember me when you're at the Masters? I mean, are you confident backing Blake over the kin of Tiger Woods?

No. Charlie Woods is 11. Oh. But, I mean, once you're a pro, seven or 24, like, whatever. Do we think that Blake is going to be a professional golfer when he's older? A lot of time. I don't want to professional.

I think I'm going to say yes. I think he clearly, like, the kid loves golf. He is infatuated with the game of golf every single day. On the PGA tour? On the PGA tour. I mean, it's better. I don't think we'll ever pay out, but I would say no. He will mom make it the PGAZ.

Wow. Oh, based on numbers, I'm just, right. So let's say, based on what numbers? He's the fifth best seven-year-old in the world. Right. There's just a lot of time between them and now to. He could get better.

He could get better. He could be number one. I'm just saying, you know who's not going to remember you when he's fucking winning the Masters. I'm on Charlie's side. Let's go Charlie. I'm on Charlie side too. What are we going to do? Are we going to be huge Charlie Woods fans?

Like, what if he's going to have? We're not allowed to put pressure on him, even though his dad's tiger fucking woods. And it's like we're not allowed to talk about him being a professional golfer. The kid stripes the golf ball. I watched that video the day because I was sitting at the dinner table with my parents. And I was like talking about the masters and how the rerun was just on. like Tiger Woods's whole life is a story. And like I was telling like my mom about like the,

the Earl Woods and then the Charlie Woods picture. And like everyone was tearing up at the day. My dad started sniffling. It was crazy. And I'm like, I'm like, and you got to see this kid's swing. So I'm showing them and like they couldn't like,

my mom couldn't believe that that's like a 10 year old or however old he is. Like he absolutely launches that golf ball when the guy was like sneaking around taking pictures like he was in the paparazzi. But like I think you just. It's crazy to say, like, you don't think that kid's going to be something. His dad's Tiger Woods. Like, I don't know. It's just, it's, there's no, his dad's Tiger Woods, and he's golfing and hitting the

ball, like a maniac. So, like, you know, math adds up two plus two equals four. Like, Charlie Wood's going to be a 22-time major champion. I like that. I like that a lot. Okay. I got to pause. Enjoy the rest of your day.

Yeah. See you boys. All right. Hey, go get. Sling it. Sling it. You're back when you leave. I can't.

Obviously. Have a great time doing it. See you, boys. A lot of folks asking, by the way, during my little Pinehurst quarantine adventure here,

what I'm wearing, what pants are those? Because they look incredibly comfortable, stylish, cool, you look great. Well, they're Peter Mallor pants.

They're absolutely must buy. They are fire. They are the EB 665 pocket pants, which are my favorite, easy care, two-way stretch is what they call it. Perfect for comfortable rounds on the course. I also notice when you,

You know, when you bend down or read a put, you know how you kind of, you do the little squat, little catchers like squat behind the ball. Oh, yeah. When you've got like, when you've got pants that aren't made with the same type of quality, you can like feel it, right? Like your legs that don't really bend. I notice when I go do that, you can feel the stretch, the two-way stretch, like expand perfectly around your kneecaps when you do that.

It's almost like encouraging me to read my putts more, which is awesome. If I could just strike them, that'd be great. It's like you're the mom in Incredibles. You're like the Elasta Woman or wherever it's called. Yes, that's how you feel. Like, I'm Alastair women pants. That's what I'm wearing. And they are so comfortable.

The five pocket pants are 100% polyester woven twill pant that are wrinkle resistant. You can literally throw them in a ball, leave them on the floor, wake up the next morning. They're ready to go. No wrinkles with a pants shape retention. These will stand up to an entire round of golf. It can even be worn in the clubhouse afterwards, wherever you want, whenever you want. They're a natural look, feel, with, tons of versatility.

I'm talking wearing these to work on the weekend, out to restaurants, along with golf course. Once we're back to normal, you can wear them around your house right now. If you want to be like Trent, whatever you'd like to do, dare you to put these on. Well, actually, wouldn't be like Trent because these are incredibly comfortable. You're going to feel you got sweatpants on, but no, they're Peter Millar pants. EB-66, five-pocket pants.

Get your pair and more at petermalar.com. It's what I wear every day. Petermalar.com and just all of their apparel. I mean, I'm pumping the pants, but like their quarters, their vests, even their shoes, all their stuff. Petermore.com. We love you, Peter Mawar. You are the best. He's gone.

He is the most unfunny person of all time on these Instagram videos he's making. He's just a buffet bet. Did you see the one he made yesterday where he poured a bucket of water on his head? He's like, looks like there's some weather out there. Man, I couldn't even watch it. Dude, when he said, so his start to it was like, you know, I'm going to play the 13th hole, whatever, fuck it is and it's like uh and then something unexpected happens and he kind of hooked me where i was like oh it's going to be like a real like something and then the unexpected thing that happened

was an expected thing that he planned which was the buffet a bit where the water fell on him because the weather rolled in i immediately turned it off yeah had to oh it's just a full buffet he's just at a hibachi table being like singing happy birthday people spraying that stuff into people's in their mouths like the oil or whatever they're doing fucking doing an onion Volcano. Onion Volcano and the Choo Choo Choo Train. You ever see the Choo Choo Trane? I don't get why when we're telling him not to do the buffet

Bits, he does more buffets. I don't, what? Is he not listening? He might be such a bit-heavy world that he thinks us making fun of him is a bit. Listen, he's just got that dad humor and it doesn't slap with me. Like, as the kids say, I just, I don't fuck with it.

But, like, he's trying. Like, he's trying. to make videos. The only thing that made me, man, was that, like, he genuinely didn't understand why we were, like, yo, like, we're not going to put this one on, like, the main Instagram because, like, Justin Bieber, like, may see it or, like, you know, who followed us that day, like Nick Jonas. Nick Jonas followed Foreplay, and the first three videos on Foreplay where we're Lurch's huge face being, like, like, doing bits, like, hello! This is downfire. And, like, Nick Jonas is probably like, now what in the fuck is this? So we were like, yeah, man, like just posted on your own thing.

And he's like, you guys don't get what's funny. And like, that's what made me mad. Well, yeah. Whatever. Like, that's such, like, it's just not that funny. But he's trying. He's definitely trying. He's trying.

Yeah, we did. We exercised a little quality control. So, you know, it's just great. Hey, and if you guys are listening to this, you're like, no, it's funny. And then go, like, go watch him on his page. He puts him up. Correct. And it's, you know, this is, that was a great, Frankie moment, too.

The minute somebody left, you decided to talk shit about him. behind their back. The second. Yeah. I just got a text that will make you happy. My guy Brock Nelson said Riggs may take over the golf picks, uh, links,

Jim's guy, unreal pictures at Pinehurst. There you go. I took, um, do you think that you're stepping on Link's Jems toes right now? That fact that people that follow links jams are now messaging me being like, I think I may start following Riggs's golf photos over links gems.

Here's, here's the thing that people have to realize is I am a like, I am, um links jams is my direct mentor like i've legit followed him step by step like he told me what camera to buy and i bought that camera he told me how he edits his photos on his iPad with this little pen that comes with the iPad where's mine it's over there and i bought the iPad got the pen he told me what app to download to edit and i downloaded this snap seat app and i use that to edit all my phone so i'm like i'm just doing exactly what he did and you're you're paying homage to him by stealing his clients

Correct. That's correct. So, yeah. And I will say this blog, I put, it took me like three or four days to write this blog and all these photos in there. A bunch of them are like with a really good camera. I took like 10 or 15 minutes editing a bunch of them. So they're like they're fucking good photos. So I'm glad that they like them. I think people will like the blog. We're talking about good photos, beautiful stuff. If your lawn has been looking crappy lately, weak, thin grass, weeds, bugs, that kind of stuff, common wear and tear from the elements. You're breaking your back trying to keep your yard looking pristine. you need to get Scott's turf builder triple action. Right now is the time to do it. Right now is the time to tend to your lawn. Scots is fantastic. They are the sponsor of From the Gallery. They're huge supporters of Fordplay. You should be huge supporters of them of Scott's turf builder triple action.

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If you get it right with Scott's turf builder triple action, you're going to be pumped. It's going to be less work for you. Thank you to Scots from the gallery. Andrew says there's three holes. left of the masters, everyone else is in the clubhouse, how many stroke lead do you need to win? I think we've kind of like talked

about this where it's like a few, well, the 18th hole one we've done. Three holes? 16, 17, and 18, like I feel like I could make a bogey on 17 pretty comfortably.

16, I feel like I could make a bogey pretty comfortably on 16. I mean, Sunday pin, talk left. Like, if you miss it right, you know, you just died on top of the hill. It rolls 10 or 15 feet by. You got, you can two putt it for bogey. So like, I'm going to say, and at that point, by the time you get to 18 T, you're at least like familiar with the situation, right? Like the big issue earlier, when you were like, you just arrive at 18 and you tee off how many strokes do you need? Now you've played two holes with the whole thing going on. So I don't think the

strokes are going to be as high on 18. I think with like, I think with a five-stroke lead on the 16th D, I could win the master's. I think for me, I was thinking, I think a nine-stroke lead, I think I'd be able to do it. And that, I'm not kidding. Yes, I think a nine-stroke lead with three holes to go. Like, I know that people think, like, I have no arms, but I can still hit the golf ball. Like, I hit my last three rounds are 78, 80, and 80, and 81.

I thought you would have, it's like a number should be lower for you. Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, no, because the mental, I need to be able to make three triples. Like, I need to be able to make a triple bogey. I need to be able to make a triple bogey. Like, on 18, I'm going to make a nine, probably. I had it in my head that I was like, oh, I could definitely bogey 16, but there's definitely a very real chance that I put it in the water twice.

And then I'm fault. I just think, like, at some point, like, if you give up, although how many strokes did I lose to Kisner in the first three holes that we played? I had a nine on one. He made a, what, three? is what I lost before. You have five strokes there. So, I mean, already, that's, and then the next hole, I can't, I can't remember what,

I think I had a triple and he may have had a party. He had a birdie. He birded at a hall, I think. So right there is just nine strokes. You're already, you've already lost nine and you're not even on the 18th yet. So maybe let's reconsider. I also was playing horrendous golf then. Yeah.

I could play horrendous golf now. If I'm playing at my best, like, there's no way I don't, I can't, like, I can still hit the ball onto the greens. Like, the greens are insane, but, like, I'll get it on in three and three putt, like, four putt. I'm still going to make a seven. Like, you know what I mean? Like, I'm not going to, I'm not immobile.

If I talked about a live stream, though, like, remember the chip Tiger has on 18? Yes, but I put that, man. I guess you would putt at that point. Yeah, but. I would do everything I can't take that ball. onto the green. There could be a spot like right on 17 you could be in two shots. You could be short of that huge bun. There's that like huge bunk in front of the green and you're like I have to clip a 60 degree over this bunker at Augusta. Like what are you talking about? I would need anywhere

from 11 to 25 because once it gets bad, it's bad. Like if I could play really well, I think 11 would be fine, but then if I blow up a couple times, like I said, go in the water a couple of times on 16, fuck up 18 and put it off the green. Like, I could need as many strokes as you can count. Yeah, like it is funny. Like on the 18th hole at the masters, Tiger Woods had to make like a foot and a half put for bogey to win. So like, yeah, that's Tiger Woods playing really well. So like, yeah, it is, I think I could do it with five because I could double one and bogey the other two. but it would probably need to be like five and a half or six for me to feel comfortable. Yeah, it's probably like 12 for me now and I think about it.

Mine's probably in the teens. Zach said, I just want to tell you every single thing you guys said about Golf Galaxy and PGA super stores in terms of putting everything on steroids so that all the stuff looks like it's helping you more often was 100% correct. I have friends that have worked at all those places and has confirmed that all of your suspicions are 100% correct. Dude, they get you. They've gotten me personally. I've got in there and like went to go look for a glove or a new hat. And then I walk out with a new driver because I'm like, oh, the new Taylor made like whatever, Sim drivers here. Let me go hit this thing. And I'm hitting the ball 310 carry. And everyone's making ooze and eyes and wiggling their dicks behind me. And I'm like, I got to walk out. Like, yeah, I call up my like bank and like ask for another line of credit because I need to buy new golf clubs. Like it's they're actually crooks. Like my dad, my poor. dad's in there. That guy can only hit fake golf clubs and they're like making them walk out with sim drivers and shit. Like there's no way. There's just no way that like our golf games are at

its best when they're inside a store while I'm wearing jeans and a hoodie and like I'm hitting a golf ball with no glove on and like some random like used club that's that's there for a demo. Like I have the best numbers I've ever had at golf galaxies and PJ SuperSores. That's just impossible. Dude, when we left that title is fitting and I had my AP ones and I was fucking, they had me thinking I was going to be on the tour when I was done. And now I go out there and I'm still shit. It should be illegal what they're doing. So that stuff's all correct.

We were right. So Cohen asks, do you think that if you shot even par on every round and every course you played, you could make it to the PGA tour. For example, you play 18-olds at your local muni, you shoot even par, you play Oakmont in the U.S. Open, you shoot even parry around. I think the answer is a hard no.

You got to go a lot. You got to shoot $8 million under par. You know? Like, I don't know how you get past. Like, can you convince someone? Hey, just put me in the U.S. Open. I'll shoot even and win the tournament. Like, I don't know how you can get a point.

At some point you're going to hit a wall. You're just going to hit a wall where they're like, no, you have to go lower and you're like, well, all I got is pars. So that's all I can do. I don't know, man, but if you like, if you told someone, like, I don't know how it works, I think you have to actually pass that test and, like, shoot under par over three days or whatever. But, like, if you convince someone like, hey, listen, like, I'm going to play a thousand rounds

of golf for you and I'm going to, like, document it all. And I'm not going to, I'm just going to shoot 72 every single time. And I'm going to be like an absolutely sick golfer and never make a boge. I don't know. I just think that's like one of the most incredible feats of all time. So like never go over par would be. Well, you would be, yeah, you would be like, people would be like what's going on over there.

Right. Like you. But like this guy's shooting 7270 every time. Like every single time. And then like if they just let you in, like you were saying like you just play like every major, you just have a chance. There's,

there's Frankie just perfectly even. You'd have a very successful vlog series. but I don't think you would have a very successful career. I think if you made it to the tour, would you not be a successful tour player? No. You wouldn't? No, I think you'd miss almost every cut. Really?

Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. Like the Florida swing, which is tough, there's, you know, a couple events there where you would make the cut and, like, the majors you would make the cut. Yeah, there are those leaderboards where it's like dash 16 to like, whatever. Some guys are like minus 22. And, like, you know, even's just way done in those tournaments. It's the only make the cut. It's true. Yeah, I, um, I just think, like, you would never be able to get to that level.

The only, the only way, maybe is if you did, like, if you were able to get enough coverage around how you're the even par man, you always shoot even par, and you get, like, a sponsor's exemption to a tough tournament, uh, like the Honda Classic or something where fucking five underwanted or whatever it was, um, and then you go out and shoot even par, bar both rounds or all four rounds. Jones will be like, this guy, like, we have to put them in these tournaments. Then you would get, like, points and enough to work towards your card. But you would have to only play the hardest tournaments because, like, the John Deere classic,

you got to be like 11 under at the halfway point or you're, you don't even make the cut. I mean, I'll play with a joke. I mean, well, yeah, that's not very nice. But that's, it happens to be true what you're saying in this case. It's a good question. I, have you shot it every single time? If you post an even bar every single time. No, when you really break down the numbers, no,

but I think you could now, in today's world, finagle a way to get to a point where you can play the tournaments where it would work out in your faith. Yeah. That'd be very frustrating. I mean, like, if you asked amateur, like, the guys, what's his name that you were talking about, like that amateur that we met out at?

Stu Hagastod? Stu Hagastat. If you told him, like, you're going to shoot even par par every single tournament you enter, do you think you'd take that? No. No, because. Really?

He knows he's better than that. Yeah, but like he could win the U.S. Open. How's he going to get into it? No. Oh, yeah, true. If you had him sign up right now, like you're only going to shoot even par for the rest of your amateur career. You're not going to win the U.S. Open.

Could. You could. Good. Yeah. Could very easily. Ginnock, I think Brooks was won over. It's at Wingfoot. Five over par won it last time at Wingfoot in 2006.

If you told Stu Hoggastad that this year at Wingfoot, you could play and you're going to shoot even. Are you signing up for it right now? Done. He would do that in a heartbeat. Yes. Tiger Woods would take that right now. I know. Which is fucking, that's why Winkfoot's the best.

Speaking of Tiger Woods, Matthew says, if you teed off from the tips at Augusta, Tiger Woods tees off one hour later. What hole does he catch you off? Hey, what happened? What is this? Tiger Woods tees off one hour behind you from the tips at Augusta National. What hold does he catch you on?

the fucking the second one because I wait the middle of the era I'm standing there waiting for him to catch me I just keep knocking the ball off the tea and having everyone be like that's one that's two that's three and like making little jokes worst joke in sports when someone just wait the hour and I just keep like

everyone's like why is Frankie taking so long over there at his bag and I'm just like nothing it's almost like when you have a dream and like you can't hit that ball You all would do that. I would do that. I'd be like my repeat dream. That's what you're described.

Every time I step up to the tea, I'd be like, ah, I forgot a tea. And then like walk back real slow. It almost be like a family guy scene where it's like. That's exactly what I was thinking. Yeah. Stubbs his toe. That'd be you. Yeah.

Yeah, that's my legitimate answer. If I knew Tiger Woods was anywhere on the grounds of Augusta National while I was there, I would make every effort to make him have to run into it. Dude, this is so all topic. I don't know why I sit in my head, but Rudy, who are our stool scenes guy, he films us, which I miss Rudy. Like, I miss our whole entire. I miss everybody. I miss, like, everyone, I just missed the office, right?

I miss, like, I miss Colin Tommy, a big titty boy, like when I walk in, like, like, everything about it. Absolutely. But Rudy just texted me. He was like, Frankie, I finally started watching Barry and let me tell you the acting class, the student, the teacher, the entire thing is almost a carbon copy of what I expect experience in my acting class. I was literally born. I was literally Barry in real life. That is exactly how it was.

And I wrote, What's up, Rudy? That sounds fantastic. But I've never seen Barry in my entire life. He, like, described, he goes, dude, didn't you tell me to watch this? I watched, like, the whole season. Like, this is like, because you told me to. I said, no.

He goes, oh, my God. It's like just a fake recommendation that, like, he thought I said. And he ends up loving the show. I think you would like that. I watched the first season. It's got some dark shit in it, but I think you would like it. We did a piece of view with him. Henry Winkler and he was saying it's like the best show ever because he's in it obviously.

Yeah. It's like a, yeah, it's good. I was just saying Rudy's, Rudy's a big bits guy too, but his play is way better than, you know. Yeah, he's, uh, well, he's like, he's really into it, Rudy. He does the acting classes. He does like, he like learns like improv and shit and like he does that thing with his fucking plant, Felicity.

It's like, it's stupid shit, but you can't stop watching it. And he's like a good looking dude. I was going to say he's also incredible. incredibly good looking. Yeah. That'll bring emails every time. Well, that's our Rudy segment. Felicity, his plant is like, he acts like it's his girlfriend.

It's very, it's like, it's very interesting. It's very funny. Okay. We are going to throw it now to Mr. Tom Pashley, who is the president of Pinehurst, real quick, with all the uncertainty in the world, feeling safe at home, it's never been more important. It's why I want to talk to you about simply save home security. They are longtime friends of Foreplay and for good reason.

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There's a ton of merit there right now when you head to simplysafe.com slash foreplay. My listeners will get free shipping in a 60 day risk-free trial. Simplysafe.com slash forwardplay to make sure that they know our show sent you. Simply safe and all of our friends here and all of us on the show, we're wishing you safety and good health. That's simply safe.com slash foreplay. Here is the president of Pinehurst, Mr. Tom Pashel.

We are ready. We're here at the Dornet Cottage. We're joined by my very good friend, Mr. Tom Pashley, the president of Pynhurst. My first question is very simple. How does somebody just become the president of Pineser? How's that a thing? It's, uh, it really is special to say it, you know, it's a dream job for sure. Does it feel weird? I've been here for 20, it's my 24th year in Piner's so it doesn't necessarily feel weird because, you know, it's a dream job for sure. I've just been here for so long. I always thought that being like the head of marketing for Pinehurst was kind of my dream job. And I remember talking to the president at the time. He says, you need to set your sides higher, pal. It was kind of his thing that when I had a real job.

I was a CPA way back when. Did that for three years. I came to Pinehurst as a guest with my brother in 1987. It was a, my senior, first time high school graduation gift from my parents to me and my brother, take a trip somewhere. And my brother chose pyrs. I'd never heard of it. And so we came in 1987.

Back then, jackets were required in the Carolina dining room. We're checking in at the front desk. And they say, you know, of course, gentlemen, jackets are required in the dining room. We're like, oh, yeah, sure. And then we like turn the corner to the elevator. They were like, what do we do now? We didn't have jackets. So we, luckily they had them in the bathroom in the lot.

They just had like a coat closet. And so back then, in 1987, I came for the first time, and I kind of fell in love with this place. And we took a role of film on every course that we played, which was only 24 shots or whatever in a role. Yeah, but back then. Back then. And so I planted the seed.

The Piner's was something really, really special to me. and I went to business school at Duke up the road. I got to know the men's golf coach at Duke. He put in a call and got me an interview with Piner's in 1996. And so I came here in 1996. I started working on the 1999 U.S. Open three years out. That was your first project. It was like we got to gear up for the 99 over.

The Piner's which was the first time in a long time. It was the first U.S. Open at Piner's. And so I thought I was going to, you know, after the 99 open, I'd go find something else to do. But after you've been here for a while, as you know now, this place gets under your skin. And it's a great place to live. While it may be a little bit isolated and remote, there's people who come through Piner. So really, if you stayed in Piner's for three years, the world of golf comes through Piner's, you know, in that time. So while you are a little bit isolated from things, which isn't a bad thing,

the world of golf revolves through pinesons once every couple of years. So how does one become president of pines? I think one of my biggest strengths is just my passion for this place. And I want you to love it as much as I do. And I'll spend all day, all night, all week, trying to help you connect with pineser in whatever way you can connect with it. whether it's the cradle and the vibe that's going on at the cradle, or if it's the tranquility of number eight,

or if you think that it's really neat that Annie Oakley was the pro with the gun club here, there's something here for everybody. And I'm going to take as much time as it takes to help you connect with whatever part of Pinders makes you tick. So anyhow, it's been a great journey. And I like to think that we're kind of stood. just getting started. There's so much potential. So look, there's a lot. You just mentioned a lot of things. You brushed

on a lot of things that I'm giddy to get into. You and I have discussed a ton off the record. You're mentioning number eight. Talking about different courses, the cradle, the creations, all kinds of things that go into that. We talked about the 99 U.S. Open. Let's start with that, right? Like Payne Stewart,

the U.S. Open, it had been I think we talked about earlier was what, the 30s that the PGA championship was here. It was 51, 52 that the Ryder Cup was here. Yep. So outside of that, it had been a long time since

a major championship, something of that nature had come to Pinehurst. 1999, the U.S. Open for the first time comes to Pinehurst. You're now, I mean, you've started, like we talked about,

you started low on the totem pole, now you're about as high as you can be, looking back and understanding everything that you know, like how important is something like a U.S. Open coming to Piner's? What does that do for a place like Piner's? I think, yeah, it's incredibly important in the 1999 U.S. Open. You know, I can remember talking about it at the time. The only other time the U.S. Open had been held in the southeast was like 1976 at the Atlanta Athletic Club.

I think Jerry Pate won that. That's crazy. The only time? The only time. And I think it was in Texas at some point, but agronomically, you know, June and the dates just were such that the grasses were not able to perform at the level that the USDA needed them to for a major championship. And so people are always amazed that the U.S. Open had not been held at a place like pioneers. But I think a lot of the rationale is agronizing, right? Like as a normal as a fan.

It seems so obvious that. What do you mean? It hasn't been held there. But it hadn't. And so that was a big coming out for Piner's. The 1999 U.S. Open was an introduction of Pinehurst to the golf world. It had been a long, long time. There were some PJ tour events in the 70s and 80s, the World Golf Hall of Fame, classic.

Was it a tour championship as a lead-up? So 1991, 92 Tour Championships. Craig Stadler and Paul Asinger won those. and I think that was beginning to put Pinehurst back on the map but I really do think so then we had the 94 senior open Simon Hobb they won that but the 99 US open it's funny to think of like

no offense to PJA tour it's funny to think of a regular PGA tour being at like you know it's such a now it's a it's not a legitimate it is a crown major championship venue that everyone it feels like should ascend to right so it's it it is one of those players you know i think you could ask sir nick

but i think for a for a why would you say that do we have a relationship it appears that you you guys do you know i don't want to see you're tight but you're in constant contact maybe we're close but to a player it seems to matter you know to and piner's now is one of those places if you want to win your British Open, your Open Championship at St. Andrews, if you could win an open, U.S. Open at Piner's, it's special. So, yeah, I think 99 was huge to coming out, and to have it, you know, to have Tiger in the mix, to have Phil Mickelson in the mix. You think back to then, Phil Mickelson had not won a major yet. His wife was pregnant, was expecting their first child. His caddy had a beeper. They ended up having their first

child on the Monday after the U.S. Open. So if it had gone into a, it was Phil and Payne in the final group. And Payne made the put that no one thought he would make. We were standing there just thinking, we're going to have a Monday playoff. And the U.S. Open was an 18-hole playoff. At the time, you're going to have Phil Mickelson and Phil's going to have a beeper. Yeah. And who knows, if that had been a playoff, Phil might have let, you can't even imagine that he would leave a.

But anyhow, that was a great. coming out party and then so quickly it was the 2005 U.S. Open six years later that the USDA came back and that was great validation for our community for pinerous number two that the golf course held up to the greatest players in the world right because you don't know until you know right yeah you do not you can do the the simulations or the guesses and uSGA can come in with their tools and say hey this is our hypotheses how it's going to work but until tiger Woods at Phil Nicholson and Hame Stewart at the time of playing their best. Like, they could shoot $15,000, they could shoot $10 over.

You don't know. Right. No, and that, as you talk to your friends and our friends at the USGA, the golf course comes first. You know, the test, the championship test of the U.S. Open is first and foremost. The other surprise for a lot of people was the state support, you know, as you know, Piner's not a big corporate headquarters, and corporate hospitality is a big part of it. So the neat thing about it.

So the neat thing about Pynters were located right in the middle of North Carolina. So Raleigh is an hour and 15 minutes away. Charlotte's two hours away. When you host an event like the U.S. Open in Pyner's, it becomes a statewide event. It's not a Charlotte event becomes a Charlotte event. Raleigh becomes Raleigh. Something in Piner's was a whole, so the entire state of North Carolina showed up. One from a corporate standpoint, from a ticket holder standpoint, from a volunteer.

So everyone showed up. And people were really concerned. How is Pioneers going to handle all the traffic, all the demands of a major championship? And we passed the test with flying colors in 99. And we've been super fortunate to then host 05. And then the crazy concept of back-to-back U.S. opens in 2014. So, you know, I obviously, I want to get into that. I want to get into 2014, the back-to-back, the, you know, Martin Kimer, Michelle We,

the men, the women, it was unprecedented, it never happened before. Before that, you guys clearly have a couple very successful U.S. opens. You've got Pioneers number two. It is this flagship course that you guys have. It's Donald Ross. It's the Crown Greens. And then you decide in 2010, I believe it is, to essentially blow the whole thing up. And just from an aesthetic standpoint and from a,

playability standpoint, just throw it all the way back. Where does a decision like that even begin? Now it's obviously a huge success. People love it. The photos, the aesthetics are incredible. In 2014, it proved to be wildly successful. It tested the best players in the world.

The process, from a pine hers standpoint, you've had two very successful U.S. opens. Why would you then decide to restore it back to something from the early 1900s. Great, great question. And what I consider to be kind of one of the boldest moves that I've witnessed in my 25 years at Pyner's. I was loosely involved in that decision. I was the head of marketing and sales at the time.

So it was Don Pageant, who was the president of Piner's, who played in U.S. Open, who was good friends with Lanny Watkins and other players of his era, and Bob Dedman. who's part of the Deadman family who owned Pinehurst. It was really their call. And they began to feel like Piners had lost a lot of its identity and a lot of its aesthetic. And it had become more about these crowned greens that are maddening and infamous to a lot of players. What people consider these Donald Ross Greens, but less about the sandy wiregrass areas. And so we had, and I think some of it was about trying to present like a perfect, perfectly manicured experience for a U.S. Open, maybe in 05, and then for everyday play.

We had three rows, if you will, of irrigation. You had a center line, you had a rough line, and then you had irrigation in the rough so that you could have just perfect. You could have, you could decide you wanted three inches of rough, four inches of rough, and have it be uniform. Because you have the water, you had the irrigation, you have. everything. At the mowers, you could just do whatever you want. And we had become what we consider kind of a monochromatic grass green experience. And you began, you know, you throw water on sand and grass grows. And so the more water you threw in these sandy areas, suddenly, you know, a year later, you got six inches less sand and then a foot less sand.

And so before you know it, it's gone. It's gone. The sand is gone. And so the sand and the wiregrass had become an ornamental. There were pockets of it on different holes. And you would get to that spot on the 11th hole, the right side of 11, and you'd say this is what Pioneer's number two is all about. But then that was the only place you saw it. Right.

So I remember that's actually not about this number two is right. Right. And so while it, and you're right, looking back on it is easy now because it's been so well received. But I do believe that that was one of the biggest risk. So we had the 2014 U.S. Open coming. We decided in 2009 to bring in Bill Coor and Ben Crenshaw and to take piner's back to the Donald Ross era, bring back these sandy grassy, grassless areas, wiregrass, pine straw. And we didn't know what people were going to think.

And it felt like an incredible risk at the time. But the president, Don Padgett, said it felt like more of a risk to him to do nothing, You know, that we were just going to become another green grass experience, and we were trying to be something that we weren't. We were trying to conform to what people expected of golf, and that was in the more manicured era. And so I give him all the credit in the world. And Bob Dedman, who is, like I mentioned, part of the family,

the Jones Pioneers, the Debton family, he said, this is either going to be the smartest thing we've ever done or the stupidest thing we've ever done. You don't know until you know. You really didn't know. And I was the head of marketing at the time. And my gosh, it was scary. Right.

And so they... I better be able to market the hell out. Oh. And so one of the primary tools of the restoration was a sod cutter. You know, they just came in and took turf out. This beautiful, manicured, perfectly uniform grass that they just started tearing out, 30 plus acres of sod. And they just rolled it up like you'd. see a roll of hay when you drive down a country.

And if you owned a pickup truck in Piner's, you came by and we would just put a roll. Yeah, so you get this shit out. You get churches, you get high school fields, you get practice fields all around town. And they're now, their old number two turf. And I remember joking about, can you imagine being the grass? You're like, do you know who I am? This turf, yeah, I used to be somebody now. This is important.

Phil Nicholson had a wedge shop. But all you got to do is in Pyner's, if nothing, if we're not about our history. And if you go back and look at all the old aerial photography that we were lucky to find that Bill Corr and Ben Crenshaw used to help guide them, it was a, I mean, I can't remember Bill and Ben. It was kind of nerve-wracking for them. Who wants to be the ones to begin cutting up Piner's number two?

Where would you even start? But they had, they had photographic evidence. And if you can take it back to Donald Ross and to, you know, an aesthetic that you know when he was alive, he approved of. And that's ultimately what they did. And it felt big and bold. And as you know, the success of the restoration of Pyner's number two really emboldened us to take it to the next level. Many years later with Piner's number four. that suddenly you had a neighbor sharing these similar corridors,

and 50 yards away, you had a different piece of land that felt totally different, that was still manicured and had pot bunkers. So number four, the redesign of number four by Gil Hance was almost dictated by the Core Crenshaw restoration of Pinos. There's no way it happens if the Core Crenshaw renovation doesn't happen. No, no. that the old number four felt like it was what it wanted to be, but once number two became so natural, and you'd have this beautiful natural sandy waste area,

and then 30 yards away, you'd have a perfectly round, circled by grass, pot bunker. Right. It was inconsistent. It was like, which one of these is piner's? And there was a time where we thought, well, it's variety. It's nice to have a little bit of variety. But ultimately, the first four golf courses at Pires were designed by Donald Ross.

And to try to stay true to the Donald Ross aesthetic and the playability of those conditions that Ross would, if he were to be able to come back and see it, we felt it was important that the original four Ross courses would look and feel like Ross would recognize. So we are obviously in the business of, of, figuring out and helping people decide hey if you're going to play you're going to book a trip you're going to go somewhere where should you go

and why and we talk about the benefits and the differences the variations all that stuff and what I've said ever since November when we came here for the first time was hey these other places band and cabot wherever

they're amazing and they're on the extra step but one thing that I've never experience anywhere else like I experience a pilot is the history. It's just everywhere. It seeps into everything that you do. It seeps into every shot that you hit. You can hit a pitch shot or a chip shot and literally think in your head like Donald Oz 150 years ago was was preparing this golf course for me to have this challenge. And you don't get that anywhere else. Now, Pinehurst in 2020, we're obviously facing a lot of challenges, which we'll get into more of that. But from a golf standpoint, how do you guys balance kind of maintaining and celebrating that history and holding it dear with the obvious moves that you've made in evolving?

The cradle, renovating four, renovating to, restoring, whichever you'd like to call. call it, how difficult is kind of finding that balance? Yeah, it's, it's, we're nothing without our history. And then that is, that is our point of differentiation, you know, is you, is you have so many different great golf destinations to travel to. And the golfer, you know, is, is winning right now. The golfer has just so many great places to go. But I do believe whether you're, you're, you're.

a person who has just taken up the game, there's something about being a traditionalist when you play golf, whether you're calling a penalty on yourself, whatever. You want to an extent conform to the traditions of the game and in a place like

Pioneers makes you want to honor those timeless traditions. And so it is a balance. We don't want to ever be considered a time capsule where you come and you're in a museum and you just say this used to be a really neat place. I'm sure my grandfather would have loved it here. Which is very difficult. Right. It's like it's an easy thing to fall into that

forever. Right. And and and I think you know one of the the coolest elements of piners number two is the fact that when Ross designed it in 1907 and in the fact that it can tested the best players in the game in 1907 and continues to test the best players in the game when they come back for the next U.S. Open here in 2004. So Pioneer's number two. It is sacred and is part of that timeless tradition. We continue to evolve it and move forward by taking it back to the Ross era. But at the same time, we'd do something on the cradle.

We had two golf holes that ran parallel to each of. other, the first hole. Which is an incredibly bold move, right? Like, people don't, I don't think people understand now. And whether you've been to the cradle, whether you've been to Pinehurst in the last two, three years or not, you've seen photos, you've read golf week, golf digest, our post, whoever, right? You would think, like, oh, the cradle's just like an obvious choice. You and I have talked about how you just act at some point. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, like, it's been there for 100 years. the cradle was an insanely bold move to blow up the front, the landscape, the front lawn of Pinehurst, this iconic place, 1895, you're going to blow up the front lawn of it and put on a par three course, build a part three course that has music in the trees. That is bold.

Yeah, again, it's one of those things you can look back. It feels perfectly natural now. How could it have ever not been part of Pinehurst? But yes, it was the first holocaust 3, the first whole of course 5. It's been the U.S. Open driving range for the 2005 Open to 14 Open. So it was very counterintuitive to do what we did. But I can't imagine it not being there. Again, we talked about how serious you can take yourself on Pioneers Number 2.

You see people out there wearing their plus fours in their Tamishanter hat, you know, paying their tribute to Payne Stewart. Which is amazing. 150 yards away, you can have, you know, a person who's playing barefoot, who's with a child who is playing their first round of golf, who's doing cartwheels, you know, down the fairway, and music is playing, and you've got a drink in your hand. And somehow the two have mixed, and it doesn't feel like we push too far. And so that the cradle, in my opinion, has done more to help invigorate, you know, the, you know, the energy level at Pinerston, anything we've done. And we did it on 10 acres of land for a very relatively modest budget. And you see it. I mean, it is, it's eye candy.

It looks and feels like what Piner should be with the exposed sand. But it appeals to a beginner. It appeals to a scratch player. It appeals to a family. It just, you know, and that was our goal. We thought, now, if we could appeal to those three audiences, it may not be possible. But we kind of said, hey, Gil, if you could make this course be able to be played with a putter only, that would be incredible. I've done it.

I mean, it's doable. It's not, there are holes. Two, you can't play at the flag. Two, you got to blast it left. Try to get, try to two-plug. Yep. Three, you know, the punch bowl, you can do. You got to blast it hard up the left, harder than you think.

Catch that hill. Four is a tough one because you can just slide way right on that thing, and you're gone, that huge mound, that gill that son of a bitch put in the middle of that thing. I've never noticed that thing until I go putter only. And then number nine, you've got to play way out to the right with him. So the point is, you can do it with a putter. It's not particularly easy on a couple holes.

But the point is, like, you know, I've talked about how. My girlfriend, who's never played golf in her life, can come out, play the cradle, and have a phenomenal time, right? Like, just genuinely be like, this is so much fun. Yeah. And if she were to go out for her first experience and try to play number two or number four or any, any mini course anywhere would probably be turned off by the game and be like, I have to hit a driver, it had a six hour, and this is miserable. Whereas you go out to the cradle and just genuinely enjoy yourself, whether you're three years old, whether you've never played before. for it to play your whole life. It's incredible how much

something like that can transform a place. And I think there's lessons to be learned for others who are in the game, but I think the location is so key. You know, as Gil has said, it's the front doorstep to Piner's. It is about lowering

the intimidation level. I just imagine, I've got a 13-year-old son who's beginning to play now and to not have to go through all the rules. Don't step in the line. walk behind, you know, don't get in their field of vision, watch your shadow. You don't have to worry about any of that stuff on the cradle. So it's a perfect, in the day and age that we're in right now where people are going to

top golf, which is amazing, and they're getting introduced to the game there. They're not quite ready to take it to an 18-hole course and have to worry about all those those other types of. It's very intimidating. But to be able to bridge that gap, if you've gone and got a ball airborne at a top golf facility or a driving range somewhere, you can bring. your game to the cradle and you can find a way to have fun and you can introduce someone in your family to the game at piner's at the cradle and uh i wish it existed back when i began playing the game

because it's just so much more inclusive removes all the intimidation factors you know if you think golf is too expensive is too serious it takes too long none of that applies on the cradle you know it's $50 for the day you can play it in about an hour many times you want and and there's music playing and there's a cool beer cart called the pine cone so you know it really has turned things on its end and to think that that's happened at a destination that's 125 years old for a historic place like piner's to be innovating 125 years into its history is pretty cool yeah you probably had to think at some point like me making these decisions that might be the shortest president in the history of pines yet now it's transformed into this

you know, this kind of it's been so elevated in the if you're a younger person, if you're an older person, if you're someone who's been on a part of a buddy's trip, if you're 65 and you've been part of a buddy's trip for 40 years or if you're 25 and year on year, first or second trip, you are no matter what looking at Pinehurst. And to me it's really interesting because

for decades Pinehurst was you know maybe you guys and Pebble were like the only real elite golf resort option in America and obviously there are other competitors

now and that's become a much more competitive realm but Pinehurst having elevated to that level and then going with the renovation of number four we had maybe a month and a half ago, two months ago, we had Gil on for the second time. We talked a lot about

number four. You know, it was, from what I understand, of course, that had been reiterated many, many different times. What all then goes into the decision to restore, completely renovate, redo, whatever you'd like to call it? Number four, which like you mentioned earlier, one of the original Donna Ross courses. You guys have four. They come in and out of the clubhouse. It's kind of all right there. How bold of a decision was that?

Well, first of all, thank you for your comments about the kind of the reinvention of this place. And it is competitive. And golfers have a tremendous amount of choices right now. So we always want to, like I said, we're not a time capsule. We are trying to stay relevant and doing everything we can to get people to keep coming back here. And so it means a lot to us. that your generation and your listeners are enjoying coming to pioneers. And they do get to be exposed to the history,

but they get to have as much fun as they can have at any other golf destination. Number four, as I've mentioned, was redone in 1998, 1999. And it was just a different time. And so it had become, it was a very manicured back then. We were overseeding all of our golf courses in the spring. And so... What do you think that was like an Augusta effect? Yeah.

You think that's what it was? I think that's fair. I think, you know, it was kind of a swimming upstream. You know, we were trying to be something that wasn't natural to our... Because that's what people wanted. They want the perfect green. Every lie's perfect. If you're in the rough, if you're in the fair way, you know exactly what it's going to be.

It's going to be green. It's going to be luscious. And you have to apply a ton of water, a ton of cam. and as a lot of us have learned now, like for very good, it's good overall that the golf world is kind of receding, if you roll back to simplicity and minimalism, but at the time,

that was not the case. No, it wasn't. And so it may have been, you know, maybe number four has been a course that over the history of pioneers has, you know, changed so much.

It maybe is the contemporary course, where number two is a little more timely, even though number two has changed. We keep chasing it with number four. But we really do think that now the version of number four that Gil Hance has created is a beautiful companion to the number two golf course. It plays very different. You know, it has similar aesthetic qualities,

but you can stand on, as you know, the sixth green, the par three on course four. And you can see parts of like 15 different holes. You have these vistas on course four that you just don't get in the sandhills of North Carolina. Number two, you could probably stand in one place and see three or four different holes, but you can see 15 holes from that one spot. And what I love about the variety that number four presents is number two, we just hosted the U.S. amateur in 2019. The scoring average on number two was 77,

and the scoring average on number four was 74. And so number two is just, it is a final examination. It's a graduate level experience. Right. You know, and you can just never relax because the green complex is so challenging. And every shot, but the green's on course four sit a little more flat on the ground. Yeah. And so it's not like it's a picnic out there.

But it just presents a nice contrast to what you're getting on course number two. So we just love the fact that something like the U.S. Amateur Championship, which for the first time in the history of that, you know, over a hundred-year-old championship, the final round was hosted. It's a 36-hole final round, and it was at Piner's where they decided to host the morning round was on course for. The afternoon round was on course two. They'd never played it over two different golf courses until they came to Piner's. And it was, I think, for a player, it just inserted this level of uncertainty. You know, maybe one person is really comfortable on number two. Right.

And it was kind of nice for the other guy to get a chance to take him on four. So it felt like a big statement, a bold statement, to have Gill come in and redo Pioneer's number four. But looking back on it, it's kind of like the number two decision. I can't imagine it not being a Gil hand. Well, and it all speaks to the versatility of partners, right? We've talked about how, hey, there's never in the history of the U.S. ever, have they played two different courses in the 36th hole final. We talked about never have they played the men's and women's U.S. open back to back at the same golf course.

And so getting deeper into the versatility, I get the request, I get to ask all the time of, hey, we're going to make the trek down to Pinehurst. And, you know, there's a couple different. Maybe we've booked number two and number four, and we're looking for another course to play. Maybe we're really on a tight budget. We can't really squeeze in two or four, but we're trying to find another course.

You guys have nine and a half golf courses. What's one of your recommendations outside of two and four, which we've talked a ton about? Sure. Let's get into a little bit more of kind of the not as talked about golf at planners. Well, number eight is my favorite, you know, getting away from the history of number two. I love going out to number eight. And it's just a whole, it sits on its own piece of property, 200 acres.

It's quiet. It's an Audubon signature golf course. So there's really beautiful wetlands. There are no home sites out there. So you get out to number eight and you forget that you're in this golf community. But you see just beautiful vistas. You see the wildlife. So I love to send people out to number eight.

It's a Tom Fosio golf course that was built in 1995 to celebrate the centennial. So that would be my third place I would send you after two and four. That was the first place we played. Yeah. And we loved it. And you should have seen how bad the greens beat up Frankie Browley. Oh, man. He just couldn't figure it out.

So when that video comes out for folks, they're going to be in for a real treat. But it does. You know, it's one thing that's really cool about Pioneers is many different architects that have come through and iterations of the different courses that people have always tried to throw it back and kind of hold. the characteristics around the greens and kind of hold the genius of kind of the Donald Ross and how much that seeped through my big recommendation to folks the top three I think are two, four, eight

I think Pioneers number three is such a miss if people skip it. I think that people look at it and maybe scoff it, it's like 5,150 yards from the tips or something like that. I don't think, and it's par 68, I don't think people understand how much of a throwback that course is.

I don't think people will understand until they play it that you are, if you skip it, you're skipping a 1910, Donald Ross, greens are as treacherous as number two. That course to me is like, Like, if I'm trying to go to Pinehurst, right, and I'm, and I know I'm going to play two, I know I'm going to play four, but I'm looking for a morning or an afternoon where I'm like, I want a Pinehursty experience, but like I'm not playing two or four or eight.

Like, number three to me is as classic as it gets. That's a great call, Riggs, because it's a mini number two. Yeah. The greens are every bit as crowned and sloped, but they're smaller. They're tiny. Yeah, you have to be more on your game to succeed on those grades, and you really do on number two. I hate to say it that, but yeah.

And over the years, we have brought back some of the sandy wiregrass aesthetic. So it feels every bit like you're out there playing the Donald Ross version of that golf course from 1910. So it is a great afternoon round to your point, 5,100 yards. It's not going to be a five-hour round. You can get through there in three-and-a-half hours, whatever. You know, it can be a quicker round. You can bring a three-hour. You can play.

I've heard people play like half a bag round, right? Right. You go seven clubs instead of 14. It's a good walk-and-carry round or push-cart round. But yeah, I think that's a great call to maybe do it before you play number two. so that you get a little bit of comfort about putting up those slopes. You know, that's a shot that just so many people don't practice. And they don't, they hear about it, and they're just not committed to doing it

until they get like four or five holes in. And if that happens to you on number two, it's too late, man. God, you're in trouble. It's so funny, because the tendency I find, the tendency is to leave it short. You just can't convince yourself. You see the distance, but you just don't appreciate the slope when you're trying to make that mental calculation. Right. Right.

So why not get those reps in on course number three? Yes. I would say then from there, course number one is also a really neat experience. You start from the main clubhouse. You get to walk down the historic hallways, see the trophies, see the plaques and the names and the photos. So you're steeped in the tradition. Then you get out there. really kind of cool to see the

horse track facility and the stables and it really does kind of remind you that this is... I'll say the horse track kind of sneaks up on you. It's kind of scary. Like, standing over a shot, you spray one over the right, you stand over a shot and like, whew! Yeah.

What's the how we're doing it up here? So the trod, they're, I don't understand all this, but I guess those horses, they're trotters, so there's guys like riding in little buggies. Yes, I see them in the buggies. They trained during the winter, and they, then they go up north and do the horse racing, I guess, during the springtime and the summer. But it is, it's one of those throwback experiences to come and be part of that, that golf course that

winds its way through the horse track and you know you're on a Donald Ross course. Again, it's a little shorter. But for course one playing maybe 6,300 yards or whatever the number is on the card, I find myself hitting a lot of five irons on that. It's like a frustrating number of five irons. I thought this was going to be short. Why am I hitting five iron approaches? Totally.

Into like kind of raised green being like, well, I have to hit it into a pretty small landing area. And you know for the most part that was the original golf. You know, that was Donald Ross's first original course in Piner. So there's a lot to be said for that. Then you've got Pioneers No. 7, which is a really neat Reese Jones. It feels like a lot of uphill shots, a lot of... Everybody says that. Piner's number seven.

The whole thing's up here. It reminds me of You know When you got like your Your grandpa being like Yeah back in our day We used to walk uphill Both ways to the school

And there's snow That's how people talk about number seven It's like no T-shut uphill Then he's second shit uphill Then the next time You're like Well what are you

Like at the end of the course Are you at the top of Mount Everest Like what are you How could it be this way But it does feel that way It's got a lot of topography out there It feels tight to me You know that's where I feel like

I need to really be in control of my T-ball when I'm playing course number seven and feel in control of your yardages because of that uphill thing. Course number nine is a Jack Nicholas golf course during kind of the mid-80s, so it's one of those. Again, the greens are very contoured. You've got to be on top of your game and a lot of beautiful settings back there with these homesites that are pushed way back. So that's the only one I haven't played yet.

Number nine. Let's go. I know. I was on my one through nine thing, and then I moved houses, and I lost my car, and I just, I haven't gotten to nine yet. But I've played one through eight, and the cradle probably 50 times. And you've gotten around number two quite a bit. So you and I have talked a lot about number two, and I'm glad you brought that up. You hear all the time about the old course at St. Andrews.

You hear all the time that you don't really appreciate it until you've played it. 10 times, 15 times. And you understand that every round out there is actually a different round. Course plays very differently. And I told you when we first were here, number four by far my favorite. Number two is next. I love number eight. I think it's really close.

I think the three those are great. I have day by day by day. Number two has chipped away at me as like it just every round it, it, irritates me but also tempts me you know it's i think like i i i every time i see off i think you know today's the day i i'm a 16 today's the day i can shoot like 74 at number two i i know the course i the fairways i i get that if they're a little tight it's a u.s open course but like i know the lines and if you miss you're in the sandy areas unless you get a bad luck you're fun and you hit it the middle of the green and two ponds and stuff and it just

frustrates the hell out of it. It plays differently. You hit a shot one day that's completely different than next. And each day it's like this mistress that keeps you so, like, tempted all the time, and it's so frustrating. And you're, but it's, it's a fascinating golf course. And it's, it's something that, that what I tell people all the time is the fact that Donald Ross was able to build something that he wasn't afforded the ability of,

You're not on the cliffs. You don't have these, you know, these stunning views, right? Like I talk, like, from what I've heard, like, Torrey Pines is like, if you're given a deep, if Corr-Krenshaw had been given Torrey Pines, it would be fucking the Cabot Cliffs. It would be banned. It would be this, that. You're given. Don Ross didn't have that, okay?

He had, in the hills and the trees, a relatively nondescript. land in North Carolina and I went at 15 minutes south of rally and built a top 10 golf course in America and the world. How did you do that? And you learn every time that you play it. Why?

You and I have talked about it a lot, but to you, why is Pioneer's number two so special? Yeah, it is. It's maddening and so many people don't get the chance to play it multiple times.

time, during one visit, and, you know, there's nothing worse as a golfer than, like, making the same mistake twice. You know, you play a hole. You only get two chances at a hole, and you flare it out into the right stuff twice in a row. You're still mad at yourself. I'm even going to get to play the hole. It's not. Yeah.

Oh, I've done that. I've said that to myself. So many times. Versus when you stiff one, you're like, that's a great hole. You love the hole when you play it the way it was supposed to be played. Yeah, it really, it's about, I can remember talking. to, you know, I'm name dropping here, but when Ben Crenshaw was redoing it, the comment Ben made was that the Greens on number two will always defend themselves. It does not matter how long

the hole is, how wide the fairway is, the Greens on number two will always defend themselves. And so it's all about hole locations and, you know, the first hole is great because you can put a flag on the back right and you just entice people to challenge. challenge that and then they miss it on the right side and now they have a choice to make you know do you chip it do you put it do you hybrid it up there do you put a little seven iron and get it in there how do you hit that shot do you know how to hit that shot so much uncertainty i can remember as we were preparing for the first u.s open 99 the 05 open so much time and effort went into the maintenance of the green surrounds you know so that's this the concept of the whole greens complex is it's not just about the greens it's the complex and what Ross was able to do because of the sandy soil and the sandals of North Carolina, he's got these undulations there that you just can't replicate if you're in a clay-based soil environment up in the northeast

because it just won't drain. So it's about putting options. So you miss the green, the first green on pinerist number two, and now you have like four choices to make. At least. You can pull the 60, you can hit a hybrid. Everybody tells you you should put. But you don't have the pace down.

No, and you're going, why would I put? I've never putted that. Like, how am I going to hit that better than my? And that just happens time after time after time after time. And you don't realize, you know, the 14th hole, this downhill beautiful T shot, to miss that green long and the drop-off that you have behind that green. But part of the- Tom, I can't tell you how bad it is to be a long-in-14.

So it's just the greens are majestic and a different hole of it. location every day, brings in a different challenge. But I remember talking to Gil, Hans, about the greens on number two. And he, in the end, even though some of them have these amazing runoffs, there's a portion of every green on pinerce number two is at grade. So whether you're walking up the front and you're on 14, for instance, you just walk right there. The green starts right as you're walking.

You don't walk up any hill. It's perfectly flat. And the back of the first green is at. that grade and so I guess things being at grade make it feel more natural so you can have all these weird contours and deep deep crevices but a part of the green is at great so it doesn't feel artificial so it is just it like I said it's an examination it's a master's thesis in green complexes and it can be maddening because off the tea it's very fair Donald Ross said it was the fairest test of golf that he had ever built because

I don't know how you do it, Riggs, but the way I get in the shower after my round of golf, and I begin to revisit it. I'm like, okay, I was in the fairway, and then I was up next to the green, and how did I end up with a double? How did that turn into a double? I do that all the time,

my friend. It tends to be, the numbers begin to add up around the greens. They do. But that's fair. You feel like there was nothing artificial about it. There was nothing unfair. There was nothing tricked up. You just didn't execute, the shot.

How could I have done that better? Right. Yeah, you do think that all the time and you know that you could have, you know. And the biggest thing that I've noticed about number two is that you're never comfortable until you've watched your ball. I'm talking about your approach, your second shot. You're never comfortable until you've watched your ball for about six, or seven seconds and it hasn't moved. I would say that.

And that to me as a player is so enthralling of, okay, there's a back right bin. I know I hit it in the middle of the green. It looks like it's in the middle of the green. I think it's in the middle of the green. It's still in the middle of the green. Okay, it's been six or seven seconds. I think it's staying there. Because there's many times where you can hit one and you know in your heart of hearts,

you might bitch, you might complain. might say like cats can't believe that rolled off but you know the second you hit it you were like that's a little left is that going to hold up is that going to hold up and Don Ross is like no that it will on my greens that will not hold up

and you know where you're supposed to hit it and not hit it and it's it's a championship test that's the caddies call it the you've got GIR for green in regulation ours is GVR you visited the greening regulation but it didn't

stay. So there's countless tales of throwing your club back in the bag and starting to grab the putter out of the bag and then you look up and it's like, where's the ball? What just happened? And yeah, you can't relax. And you're right, for the most part

you know that you didn't hit the perfect shot. And there's, maybe occasionally you hit a great shot and you just didn't land it. That's the other thing that the caddies would tell you, on the Greens on Pioneers number two, you you shoot for the center

and you put to the corners. So you just want to land. It doesn't matter. It would be, I think it would be a great experiment. I've never done it, but I would just like to pull the flags out of every green on Piner's number two. If there's somebody to do it. Not even know where the, yeah.

Five weeks. Let's give it a shot. We could go out late one day, but if all you're doing is trying to hit the middle of the green and then put to the corners and not let your mind play games with you to try to feather one. into the back hole location or it doesn't matter just hit the center give me the yardage to the

middle i'm going to hit that shot hopefully and then i'll put how much lower people's scores but yeah it's incredible exercise to think about uh so lastly i want to talk about we did the fundraiser the uh relief fund for the employees pinehurst like everyone else is deeply affected by the COVID-19 situation. I believe you guys are around 1,500 employees typically. Now you're down to 100 to 200 employees. That's hundreds, if not 1,000 employees plus that have been affected in a very negative way by the whole thing.

You and some of the staff here came up with the idea of auctioning off very cool items to raise money and try to obviously help financially as best you can. all these employees anyone who's been to Pinehurst anyone knows that as cool as you come for the golf you come for the deuce

and the chatter and the cradle but you stay and you feel at home because of the people here like that is what Pinehurst is about that's what the village is about the employees at the Carolina Hotel who welcome you everywhere

and that's really what it's about and those are the people that are most deeply affected, talk about the relief fund and the idea and kind of how wild it was, how much that took off and was kind of captured by everyone in the golf world. Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. While we're having so much fun here talking about

the amazing Pioneer's experience, it's not the same right now. And it's kind of a heartbreaking time to be here because it's the middle of the spring season. This is typically when we're at full capacity. The hotels are full. The golf courses are full. People are having a blast. We're talking about who won the Masters

and people are getting out of their winter season and getting into their spring season. So this is our time and this is and we're not at full staff right now. So yeah, we typically have about 1,500

employees. We're at 200 right now. And as I mentioned, I've been here for 24 years and I know so many people by name and know by family and when we had to put people on temporary layoff it was just very personal and and we know them and we want to find ways to help them through this and and so we we just on kind of a whim on a Friday we put up some we decided to auction off two t-times on piner's number two for the following day you know so you had to submit your bids by 4 p.m.

And we quickly had like $1,500 that two different people bid to have these tea times. We said, wait a minute, we've got an opportunity here to create a cause. And so that little experiment of selling two tea times on Piner's number two inspired us to think of what are the amazing golf experiences that you can have at Piner's? Or the Dornet Cottage, where Donald Ross lived, could we auction off an event or a for some to stay at Donald Ross's home? Could we incorporate the Piner's Brewery? Could you collaborate with our brewer to create your own beer and name your own beer?

Yeah, Eric Mitchell is fantastic. We were blessed to have Gil Hance, who agreed to play Piner's number four with a foursome and play the cradle. That went for a ton of money. Oh, my gosh. And Bill Coor is going to walk Piner's number two with a foursome of people and explain the design brilliance of Donald Ross. He's going to go through it. We just went through except he knows what he's talking about. And so we just can't kind of, we were able to rattle off experience after experience after experience

to have the pine cone, our beverage card on the cradle, come to your event and have a happy hour to rent out the cradle for half a day and play it backwards, do whatever you want on the cradle. So we just, it's an embarrassment of riches, if you will. And so we cobbled together all these unique experiences and put them up on an auction site. and you agreed to help us do an Instagram live auction, which was really fun. You put in a twosome in the Barstool Classic,

an opportunity to play versus you, Mano and Mano on course number four. On camera. On camera. By the way, I mean, I don't think they realize that by the time this thing rolls around, I will have played Pirates number four 40 times. You know, actually.

It's just not a fair fight, but that's fine. And so at the end of it all, based on the generosity of Piner's fans and just the golf community, we raised over $290,000, almost $300,000 was raised. And so what we're planning to do is we're going to extend the health care coverage for all of our employees through the end of May. We had previously announced that we were going to go through April. Now we're going to go all the way through May because of the success of this auction. We're giving out weekly care packages. It's an amazing scene to see our employees pull in to the back of the Carolina Hotel

where we're giving them food and essential items to help get them through these difficult times. We're providing additional funds to our Pioneer Employee Assistance Fund, so people who are really on hard times can apply for grants, interest-free loans. They're giving out gifts. And so we're getting amazing feedback. For our employees, it meant the way. world to have all these people and the generosity that we saw people coming in, stepping forward and trying to support them. And so it was a bright light during a dark time and we're still in

kind of this difficult time right now. We've announced that we're going to stay close to the end of April. It may end up being through the end of May. We don't really know. We're responding to the situation. Very uncertain. Yeah. And the North Carolina, we're still able to play golf, which we feel unfortunate that we're able to get outside and play golf and enjoy the exercise with the proper distancing and being safe as we can. But we're not going to be the same until we can have all our employees back because they really are the ones who make the difference. You come for the Pioneer's experience.

I think you come back because of the experience you've had with our employees. And so, you know, it's just, it's not going to be the same Pinehurst until we're all back, until the guys Larry and Froland at the bag dropper greeting you. And Patty at the Deuce is serving you. And Eric Mitchell at the breweries, brewing beer again. So it's kind of a difficult time. But we know that we're ready to hit the ground running. We've made an incredible investment over the last decade in this place.

And it's appealing to everyone. And so I'm so glad and thankful for our owners, the Dedman family, that we've made the investments that we have. So that when we are able to come out of this, I think we're going to hit the ground running. and we just can't wait for people to come back. Maybe, you know, 2019 was a record year for Pine Nurse. Occupancy rounds, all that stuff. We set records. And perhaps we became a little complacent.

And what I'm most excited about is that when people come back to Pineers, we're going to be so appreciative. We're going to be so happy. When I see the first group of eight golfers walking up the brick path from the parking lot to the clubhouse, I'm just going to be so happy that they're here because we're going to go for months without them being here. So I think we're going to appreciate the little things,

and I think we're going to see more golfers walking. We're going to see more golfers less concerned about pace of play, and just happy to be out there. And I think we cherish it. Cherish the moment. Yeah. So as difficult as it's going to be to get through these challenging times, I think we're going to come out on the other end

and hopefully we'll all be better for it. and we'll appreciate it and we'll be less concerned about the minutia and just more concerned about the soul and the people and the well-being of those who are here. Absolutely. Well, look, you guys, everybody's obviously going through a very tough time. It's unprecedented what's happening. But I think that kind of trying to entertain, trying to talk about normalcy, trying to talk about Pinehurst and all of its glory gives people that sort of something to strive

for, something to understand that, you know, yeah, we are. We're self-isolating. We're social distancing. But on the other end of it, at some point, whether that's in a month or it's in a year or whenever it is, there are things out there like Pinehurst that you can kind of obtain or achieve an experience and so it's really really cool to i think offer people kind of an insight into that it is important for them to know that it's it's not the same it's eerie man like it is mid-april now the flowers are blooming it's green it's gorgeous and relatively speaking there's no one out there and i think that that's important to convey like yes pyners is doing all it can and and and providing and the golf courses are as open as they can possibly be with a minimal staff

because everybody's cut short because of everything that's happening. But it's really cool to give people kind of that hope that there's a future, there's something to, again, go after and think about and you can be out there. Again, whether it's in the summer, it's in the fall or it's next spring with your buddies and doing it again. And I think, too, it's so awesome. You guys were creative. You thought of ways to try to raise money.

You thought of ways, hey, like, what kind of stuff that can we come up with that we, as Pinehurst, are blessed with that we can offer that will be interesting to people and raise money? Tonight's at the Doran Cottage, rounds it with Gilhance. He was willing to play ball with Bill Corp. He was willing to play ball and raise money. And you guys raised almost $300,000. dollars it's um it's just awesome it's a great thing well you're you're you're uh you're waving the flag for a lot of people who wish they could be you know living the dream that you're living right now i know it's it's a weird time you'd rather be with your buddies and you're playing a lot of

golf by yourself and that's that's it's kind of a spiritual experience in and of itself totally is but it's not the same not four weeks of it right and so right that's right but it's awesome that you're here you know keeping people the anticipate of your next golf trip is, you know, gets people through a lot of difficult times. Times at work, times at home, whatever it is. You pay your dues so that you can go on your trip, and so many of these people trips have been impacted. And so for you to be here sharing your experiences, sharing your perspective on the Pioneer's

experience, I think it's really helped a lot of people look forward to whenever they're going to be able to get back into the saddle. And so thank you for all you've done to kind of expose this place and to keep people's golf trips and dreams alive. been really cool. I think that's such a good point. People pay their dues. That's why they work. That's why they battle.

That's why they go through everything they go through so that they have certain things to build towards and look forward towards and I think a tribut pioneers for any golf fan is the pinnacle of kind of that thing. So yeah, it is.

It's been weird playing a lot but in no way has anyone ever heard me complain. I wouldn't. It's been nuts being here, but again, it's the reason I play golf is not to like play by myself or try to play the PGA tour. It's to have the banter and the back and forth and the needling, as Tiger Woods would say, with your buddies. And like, nobody can have that right now.

So it's not the same for anybody. It's not normal for anybody. But I think you guys have done an incredible job, obviously trying to stay. as open as possible with responsibility, the social distancing, and obviously with the fundraiser and raising money. So it's been very cool to hear from you. I think the listeners are going to love it and keep doing what you're doing. We very much appreciate it.

I hope a lot of people make their way to Pioneers and run into you when they're here. I can't wait to see them. Like I said, we like to say it's a beautiful day at Pioneers and we know it's going to be a beautiful day for years to come. and we look forward to welcoming all your fans and all your listeners, and you've done an incredible job of showing the breadth of the Pioneers experience. So many people come here for two nights, and they just don't get to appreciate everything that you're now able to shine a bright light on.

I mean, you have not in a golf course. It's kind of, it's like what it does. But it's true, and I think people, they have to, it's the mecca. It's the mecca is the mecca of American golf. You have to come experience it. And I hope that in all of these ties you've been able to give people come, of a hey that's something we can go after and someday make their way there so mr tom Patrick president of pyrus i appreciate the time and um keep up the good work and i look forward to

when pynhurst is full and and and buzzing and and add it again and i mean that about everywhere in the world but pinesors is obviously reflective of that so thank you very much we've we share your sentiments riggs thank you all the best appreciate it