Fore Play - w/ Course Architect Gil Hanse

Episode Date: November 14, 2017

World renowned course architect Gil Hanse joins the show to talk everything golf course architecture. From designing the Olympic Course in Rio and Castle Stuart in Scotland to restoring American classics like Winged Foot and Merion, Gil details what it's like to be one of the most sought after architects in the world. Does he hate trees? Does he ever trick himself when playing his own courses? Frankie Borrelli also becomes a permanent fixture in From The Gallery, talking about the burden of having the best eyes in the group and debating the best small things country clubs do that make you happy. Thank you to our Sponsors: Omaha Steaks - for only $49.99, you can get my Family Gift Pack when you go to OmahaSteaks.com and enter my code FORE in the search bar – That's 75% off! New Barstool App - Make sure you're staying up to date with everything Barstool. You don't want to miss the latest in-office grudge or must see video. Get everyone's hot take by going to the app store and downloading the NEW, UPDATED Barstool app today. You can find every episode of this show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube. Prime Members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. For more, visit barstool.link/foreplaypod

Hey, 4Play listeners, you can find us every Tuesday and Thursday on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or YouTube. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Hello to my friend Trent. Hello to my friend Riggs. It is your buddy Riggs. We are joined on this show. Really, really, really, really good show this week. Yes.

We have on as a guest, renowned course architect Gilhans. He has done all kinds of stuff. He's done the Olympic course. He's done restoration projects at Wingfoot. He's got Marion's closing all year next year. He's doing a restoration project there. He's done the Country Club in Brookline. He's got a new course down at Stream Song.

He's got a new short course over at Pinehurst called The Cradle. We get in all kinds of stuff. About 45-minute chat. Really, really unique stuff. 40 minutes, and it's packed to the gills with information. Packed to the gills. Nice, Tre. Thank you.

And he did most of the talking. He would ask him a question, and he would go on. And it's very, very, very interesting stuff. He killed it. Awesome story. Big Dave Matthews band fans. So Trent was fist-popping about that. I was. Really, really interesting stuff.

You guys are going to love it. And like we said, he's a cool dude. He's a friend of the program. So stay tuned for that. We also have, we are adding as a permanent fixture to the show, Frankie Burelli, the pizza maker. Frankie B. We'll be on from the gallery every week.

He's just too good not to have him on. He is an electric factory. And he shows no signs of slowing down. So we add him to from the gallery. He's got great stories. He's a big-time golfer. It worked out perfect. And we're all buddies and it's perfect.

It's great. Frankie's a big time golfer like he said He's always getting in the mix So it's a no-brainer We got Frankie on the show now He's going to be on from the gallery every week This week we get into What are your favorite little small things

That you can only get at private country clubs We also get into it This was pertaining mostly to Frankie But is it annoying being the only guy in the group That sees every ball So a lot of good stuff in from the gallery We mentioned at the end of last week's show That we were going to do a throwback episode

We are however we ended up getting Gilhans this week. And like I said, we went like 45 minutes with him, so it didn't make sense. Yeah, it would have been weird to plug in, hey, we're back in 2008, and then here's a current day interview with Gilhans. Right. So keep sending us your suggestions for those. We're going to do that likely next week. And it's going to be really, really fun.

But we had to postpone that because we have an even better situation going with awesome guests and all of that. However, I have to start and I have to tell everyone something very important. And it's from our friends at Omaha Stakes. Now, I want to clarify something. Omaha Steaks is giving ForPlay listeners the greatest package, perhaps of all time, and I want to make it very clear how you get this, and we're going to go through all of what you're going to get.

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They didn't even list that on the thing. I know. It's like you're burying the lead. preserves it. It's awesome again. I've had now two come to my apartment. My roommates and I have made huge nights out of it. The meat is absolutely phenomenal. Well, and that's another thing. So we're both bachelors living in the city. Oh, yeah. Fifty bucks. I'm not cooking. I'm not a guy who cooks. I just can't do it. I'll burn the fucking place now. Right. But 50 bucks, I spend that on takeout in two days. If I were to go two days without cooking, two days.

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Ricky Fowler was in the mix. He came up just a little bit short to Patton Kazair. A 31-year-old guy who's, you know, comes off his younger face because he grinded through the old, the old-fashioned way, was on the web. You know, he got it. I think it was December 2014. he went through WebQ school, had a phenomenal year the next year was leading the money list for much of the year.

One there, graduated the PGA tour. He's been a little bit up and down on the PGA tour, and then he got a little hot here in the beginning of the wrap around season, held off Ricky Fowler. Awesome for him. Very cool to see.

No doubt about that. He had actually a pretty nice par on the 18th. He had like a weird stance. He had to fire kind of his arms with an eight iron choked up. He almost standing in the bunker. Made a nice par. Ricky couldn't birdie the 18th after making a nice charge.

Awesome for him. However, we got to talk about Ricky Fowler. Ricky's the one with the juice. I mean, I love Paul. Congratulations, but we're here to talk about Ricky. Ricky is, he's taking a lot more heat now. Once again, every time this, pretty much every time he's in contention, he gets shit on for not winning.

Yeah, which doesn't seem fair. No, it doesn't. It's tough. I mean, he's really sort of a victim of his peers' success, you know? Absolutely so. More so than anybody of any sport I think I've ever seen. Yeah, and we've talked about this before. before on this, you know, he's also a victim of people get frustrated that he gets all of the attention that he gets, that he's as flashy as he is, that he has all these massive endorsement deals because he's not out there delivering majors every week, which more power to Ricky.

I mean, yeah, if you can get it the other way, he's going to win majors. This thing is a thing that's going to happen. It's just a matter of win. So for people to be like, oh, he shouldn't have all these things. Not to mention, he is the most popular American golfer running right now, especially with the small children. So that's a huge deal. People, you know, you people wonder why is he so popular if he hasn't won a major yet. It's because he is able to put dollars in the sponsorship's pockets because he's so popular.

And it's really the bottom line. If you can do that, it doesn't matter if you don't win. Yeah, and we're in a world today where branding, you know, building your own brand is as important as ever. There are a million different outlets that you can do it via social media and all that. He utilizes all that stuff really well. And therefore, you know, he's able to be one of the more profitable, guys, one of the more marketable guys in the game, and he's going to be that way for a long time.

He's super likable. Whenever he does win, he's buying champagne for the media. You know, he's just, yeah, he's a great guy. Being likeable can go a very, very long way. Be nice to people, assholes out there. Don't be an asshole. Don't be an asshole. That's a big, that's kind of one of the themes of the Foreplay podcast.

It is, and we'll get to that on our next topic. But yeah, it is. We will get to that. It's a big theme. But he has, I believe he's got something crazy, like 22 top tens in the last two years, which I believe is third, only two. I think maybe Justin Thomas and Dustin Johnson could be like Spieth is subbed in there

with one of those guys or something. Just free will. Who cares? Anyways, he's got incredible, incredible stats supporting his consistency. And you know he can win because he basically won the fifth major. Players championship is, in my opinion, well above any other sixth tournament.

And so he did win that. He won it in phenomenal fashion coming back. He went, you know, whatever like Birdie Eagle, Bertie, Bertie, Bertie, and then kept Bertie and holes in the playoffs. He's fine. Ricky's fine. Ricky's fine. He's 28.

I think he turns 29 next month. He'll be absolutely fine. I don't love seeing him get shit in these situations. He started to see it come in on Twitter in a little bit. If it were a bigger tournament and a bigger section of the year, I think, like, this conversation would really pick up some juice. People might just be bored in terms of, like, what's going on with golf right now? They just want to like, all right, let's, yeah, let's talk about Ricky and how he doesn't.

You would like to just see him close. You know, you'd like to see. And he kind of gets a little victimized, too, of not having that, like, killer instinct. You know, they love to talk about that in golf. Like, these guys are a bunch of, like, war heroes. Yeah. But Tiger, you know, Tiger's like, oh, Tiger doesn't talk to me. Well, yeah, that's, yet again, the victim of, like, his peers with that.

Because also, you know, the next generation, Jason Day, Spieth, all these guys are, well, Dustin Johnson has gotten the thing where he's too lacquadaisal, but then he wins a major and all goes away. Right. And it's also, like, that theory also kind of gets crushed because, like, nobody says that about Spieth. Yet, Spieth's on spring break with the same crew. Yeah. Spees out there doing the same type of shit. So, so I think Ricky, it takes a little bit too much.

Again, I started to see that conversation work itself up a little bit. It didn't quite surface as much as it typically does, which I'm happy for. But anyways, that was the big event this past weekend. We're what? I think we're about two and a half weeks out from Tiger. Two and a half weeks. Get excited. That'll be a big one.

I am. All right. Next topic. We mentioned there are people who are not so nice to everyone, unlike Ricky Fowler. Our guy, Grayson Murray's back in the news. This guy does stink. He can't stay out of the news, and it's because of his Twitter. It's not for anything else.

It never is. It's always his Twitter. or this time he is under or he's under attack by some people who are saying that the let me let me just read this to you so read it to me um who tweeted the original one will gray from golf channel will gray from golf channel will gray from the program nice guy very nice guy he tweeted about bernard langer's champions two or 2017 stats which are astronomical and phenomenal they're unbelievable but grace and murray took offense and says quote does anyone really care is the real question those guys were relevant 10 plus years ago now i think we have a couple of interesting opinions on this we don't think that Grayson Murray is completely wrong about do anyone really totally care about

Bernard Langer's monster stats on the Champions Tour. Whether or not that's true, that's not my point. My point is that it's coming from Grayson Murray, and he has made enough mistakes on Twitter throughout, you know, the last year or so, that he just can't be saying these things because he's an idiot. Yeah, and it's also, I mean, he's going, he's responding to a golf channel writer's tweet about these stats, which the stats, when I read that and then you fact, you know, the reason that he put that out.

out is because Bernard Longer did not end up winning the Schwab Cup, which is, you know, the basically the FedEx Cup of the Champions Tour. We'll just call it senior tour. I don't like. Do they make us call it PGA Tour Champions? It's just the senior tour. Should have won and he dominated all year, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so the stats saying, hey, these stats are unbelievable.

He, I mean, I honestly don't think I ever turned on a senior tour event, and he wasn't winning. Ever. He's always always walking around. He's got the lead. He is Mr. like German machine out there. And so the fact that he didn't win is appalling and reading those stats and then putting those two things together wasn't. So yes, people do care. And that guy's a golf channel writer.

It's literally his job to cover the world of golf. It'd be one thing if Will Gray said, look at Bernard Langer's stats here. Why are people talking about Spieth and not Bernard Langer? Like it's not like you're not comparing the two. So Grace and Murray comes and basically sucker punches Bernard Langer being like, nobody cares about these guys anyway. They were relevant 10 years ago. Grayson Murray.

Way to take a shot of Bernard Longer. Why? Why? Grayson Murray, there's something wrong with him because he gets burned on Twitter every eight weeks or so. Deletes his Twitter, comes back, does the same thing. And he obviously deleted this tweet. I'm thinking he's probably going to delete his Twitter here in the next couple days because that's the kind of guy he is. And then it'd be one thing if he learned was like, I should probably be on Twitter less.

He comes back with more. That's the sign of someone who doesn't get it. The thing that annoys me is he clearly. I think does these things to a certain extent just because he knows they're so outlandish and like wants to stir it up. And that drives me crazy. You are giving him much more credit than I will

because I don't think he thinks that way whatsoever. I think and I think that it's such a stupid shitty fight to fight that it's, it has to be a move just for attention, just for people to talk about it, just for people to be like, oh, and then him to kind of like sit back and be like, oh, look at these people to fit in the champion store, it's the greatest thing in the world when he knows that's not what people are doing nobody's doing that

this could be social media semantics but i would agree with you if he had quote tweeted will gray and said these people aren't relevant anymore he just he just responded to will gray's tweet he's seeing that only between like him will gray and their mutual followers so i think he's just firing off at the hip and he's so dumb that it's just like oh whoops i said something stupid again it's yeah it's such a stupid fight to fight um it's not even again had he been like hey this is less important and then other storylines and other tours right that. Yeah, that'd be fine.

But again, to come out, be like, nobody cares. These guys haven't been relevant for 10 years. Well, I mean, he is relevant. He's, Bernard Longer's story is fascinating. The fact that he dominated to that degree. He's almost,

I think he is, they're almost 60 years old now, playing against guys that are 10 years. His youth, when you're that old, is absolutely dominant and awesome and impressive. And he did, I think it was four, five years ago that Bernard Longer finished

top 10 at the Masters. Yeah. People were firing that stat back at him and all that. So to say, like, well, these guys haven't been relevant for 10 years is such a shitty, stupid, lazy comment that it's very infuriating and rile everybody up naturally and then he deleted it. And maybe I'm just frustrated because I know it's never going to end. I don't think Grayson Murray's ever going to stop doing this, the cycle that we're going to have to go through every single time. You could say, hey, maybe I should just unfollow him. I'm kind of addicted to his stupidity at this point.

So I'm going to keep going with it. But I just know that he doesn't have an awareness about this, and it's just going to keep happening. and I'm just going to keep getting mad. The only reason that I feel like he does is just because the millisecond that I saw his tweet, I was like, I rolled my eyes, was like, I know what this guy's doing. You think you know what he's doing so much that I don't, I think that works against him. Like, you are refused to believe how stupid he is, but he still does it. Yeah, I think you're probably right.

Yeah, I want Grayson Murray on this podcast so I can ask him about it. Yeah, I wouldn't. I would love to have a lot. Me too. I really would. I have very, I have a lot of questions for him. All right. We've got the gang this week.

in C Island, Georgia, and then they're off for Thanksgiving week. And then after that, we've got the Hero World Challenge, the return of Eldrick himself. Big Dick Eldrick. Next up, we have a little from the gallery with our guy Frankie Borelli. All right. Now in studio, our guy, the notorious Frankie Borelli, the pizza maker. Hello, fellas. Hey, buddy.

What up, Frankie? So, from the gallery this week, as we mentioned up top, Frankie is now a permanent fixture in the from the gallery. He's too electric. He has to be in there. He's fired up about it. Frank who sent me exclamation point text.

I think if I add more than two zeros to a let's go, that's how you know it's like the real deal. Yep. Yeah, there are a lot of let's go. Yeah, I'm a huge let's go guy, but if I go, let's go, let's go. O's are saying. O's were flying.

I'll let's period go, and then that's when you really know. It's all about the extension. It really is. It really is. All right, this week's from the gallery is brought to you by the Barstool app. Hey, we got a smart guy that made our new app. Brand new barstool sports app.

There's a lot of golf stuff on there, as Frankie just mentioned. Go download it. If you don't, you're crazy. We got people really smart motherfuckers downstairs working on this stuff all the time. Anybody who's been a fan of barstool for actually during any period, the app has been pretty garbage. We try to bring in, we try to bring people in to make it better. It never works. This one, they finally got it.

This guy, Andrew, I believe is his name on the second floor. Smart as a whip. He made it, I mean, he made it perfect. It runs like nothing else. Or whip smart? Smart as a whip? Yeah. That's a thing.

Whip smart? I can't imagine the whip is smart. Maybe the person using the whip? Smart as a whipper snapper? Smart as a whip is a thing. Really? Brandon's looking it up right now. Very quick-witted and intelligent.

Okay, that's huge. Unlike these two. Quick. I'm not quick. Smart is so sharp as it. Maybe sharp as it. No, that's not. Anyways, this guy's smart.

He's really, really smart. You imagine making an app? No. Where do you even start? Where would you start? I can't fath on the fact that like when I send a text message. It shows up on someone else's phone goes into space comes down goes onto the phone. Can you imagine starting with just like blank?

Just like make an app. Yeah, I'm going to say there's some coding involved, but I watch Silicon Valley and that's about it. That's about it. That's about it. God damn. Speaking of space, this is, yeah, your text goes up into space and we had some space controversy a couple weeks ago with your moon theories. Yeah, we did. You were not hot on the moon, landed on the moon thing.

No, I mean, we don't have to get into the whole thing, but I really just don't think we landed on the moon. But, I mean, fair enough. It's just that the video. evidence is... Well, it's what Frankie told me. It takes one video. You watch and you're like... You're down a rabbit hole.

You could believe anything if you watch one video on something. And then you don't counter it with like reading a counter... Yeah, it's like, what are you going to tell me? Like, yeah, we did. It's like, I just watched an entire video about how we didn't.

Right. They filled an hour describing how we didn't go on. It's like, what are you going to show me a video of how we did? I just watched one how we didn't. And then with something like that, you can be like, well, then you're just part

of the herd. If you think we land on the moon... Like, you are the reason And they made that video. Right. You can just make fun of their intellect and they get mad me with. I'll just give a quick recap. If you look at all the videos and all the gifts, the gifts are the ones that get me.

Oh, yeah. They're just like floating around Twitter, floating space. But anyway, you see it. And it just looks like there's not enough surface behind where the flag is. He's putting the flag down. And the moon looks like he's on a little ball, like a little bowling ball. If you're on the moon, there should be surfaced forever. It took me a long time to get...

It took me a long time to get this. But what he's saying is like if you're standing in the middle of a field on Earth, there is Earth everywhere around. It doesn't look like you're on the edge of the Earth. It looks like you're just on the Earth. Right. So in every single video or a picture, it's just like... Like the edge of the moon, the curvature of the moon, is like right behind them.

Right. Which is bullshit. Folks, make sure you're staying up to date with everything Barstool. You do not want to miss the latest in-office grudge or must-see video. Get everyone's hot take by going to the app store and downloading the new updated barstead. stool app today. Okay. From the gallery.

First guy, Garrett. By the way, pretty good from the galleries this week. Yeah. Clayton's really stepping it up. It's my first week with it, and I think these are great. These are really good. Remember, send your shit to foreplay at Barstreltsville Sports.com. Sunshine is out. Robbie is out. Now you're looking at me and Trent are scouring through those. We finally got access to the email.

Finally figured out. No, we didn't tell anybody about that. We had to, RIP Sunshine. We had to have, we didn't have the balls to text Sunshine. and asking what our password was to Foreplay. He's been gone for like two months. Yep. And so we haven't had access to the email outside of our phones, because I'm already logged in

on my phone. But it's annoying because I get all the email. So I, like, scrolling through is really a pain in the ass. And then whenever I see a good from the guy, I like to copy paste it, but I couldn't get access to my computer because I know the password. Because we're, bottom line is we're cowards. You guys push that too long to the point where it's like, we just can't get, we can't text.

Well, I reached out to. Yes, that's what happened. It was on so long that if we never. Now ask him it's almost even more. Exactly. It was too long. And eventually we didn't even put in our hands. I asked our girl Marina, who runs our social.

I told her what was happening that we're just a couple of cowards. And she was like, I'll handle this for you. And 10 minutes later, she figured it out. So anyway, we're back. We got full access to the 4Play email. So email us stuff for Play at PartialSports.com. Garrett comes in with a great one. He asks a simple question, boys, what is your favorite small, tiny little detail that you've ever experienced,

that they really bring the heat with at a country club, at a private club. Frankie, let's give you the honors, buddy. You're excited, Frankie. I mean, I came in with some armed and ready. No, there's just one that I know that I love that you really don't see anywhere else, except for at a country club. And it's that little box with all the little goodies inside right before. So it's either it's in the clubhouse or it's right before the first tee.

You have all your T's. You have all of your ballmarkers. You have the, you have the, you have the divot replacer, and you have the scorecard. It's a nice little box. Sometimes they have it like near the bathroom. Sometimes they have it like right where you get changed. And I fucking fill my pockets up with the most shit you can possibly think. I take a thousand ball markers.

So sometimes, too, they have it on either the first tee or a really veteran move. They have it between the first green and the second tee. Oh, it's great. Because everybody forgets the scorecard. And then you're like, oh, shit, I have a scorecard. Boom. There's a box right there. They've thought of everything.

I empty my golf bag the night before I play at a country club knowing that I'm going to clean house at whatever little box I see. So mine is not actually even a private club thing. The only time I've ever experienced this is when I was out in Pebble and all the courses do this out there. They have this little air gun thing and you sit down on the chair like you're at a fucking shoe shiner at the airport. And you know, you put your foot up there and the guy cleans off your shoe with like a super aggressive air gun. Cleans the shit out of your shoe without even touching them. And then they're a little like cherry on top at the end.

They squeeze the air in the side between your foot and inside your shoe and blow it for like 10 seconds. And it like tickles and like clears your feet out. And you're like after that you feel like you're walking on the fucking moon after that. And where is this located? Like all the course is that will do it like right afterwards with the cart guys. So you have a soggy foot. You're tired. This guy cleans you right up.

They like fire this air gun in there and it like just gets in between all your like toes and like clear just like clears out your feet. Your feet take a beating during a rent of golf, and for that to happen right when you're done, like now you're, like, get in the car, you're not, like, sweaty. They're nice and clean. Like, I would pay 40 bucks for it. That's awkward.

Is it free? Oh, yeah. I mean, tip the guy. You know, give them, like, $5, 10 bucks, whatever. But, yeah. Usually there's just the things where you can clean off your shoe where you kind of kick the side of it type of deal. Do you know what I'm talking about that?

Oh, yeah, big time. I've seen the motorized ones, too. No. You see the motorized ones? Or you step on a, you step on something, and then, like, it spins, and the bristles in the bottom, just clean the bottom of your shoe. It's real good.

It feels like you're putting it on like a buffer. Oh, that is nice. Your foot can get, like, caught in there, though, and it's over. So let me say the worst thing about private club golf that nobody ever talks about. I tweeted this a couple weeks ago. There's no service in any shitter in, like, any private golf club's locker room in the world. Like every one of them, they just have no service. Do you think they do that on purpose?

Yes. Yeah. Okay. That's what I was going to say. They think it's awesome. And it's stank, like they're all like concrete fucking walls. You go to take a shit, you sit down and I'm going to, like, cruise through my phone. You don't have access to your phone in most clubs.

So, like, you haven't looked at it all day. Sit down on the shitter and you just, it just literally says no service. Yeah, they're probably not expecting, like, a 24-7 blogger to be coming through being like, I need to update something. So I'm like trying to hold my phone up like in the stall. Like, you know what I'm saying? I wouldn't be surprised that they had, like, one of those things that you always see back in the day when, like, the mafias would go to, like, public places. And they'd bring this little contraption where it would just shut people's service of you. ever see this? Oh yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't be

surprised they have that in like the tiles above like the stalls and like you try and try and say I think they do. It's like it's crazy. Like you can be at the urinal right next to it. You're fine. You go two feet left into the stall and it's like you're in a fucking bunker like a nuclear bunker. Well it's a good excuse for people who was like oh I don't I don't there's no service. I couldn't have my phone. I'm sorry but for you it's kind of tough because you're a blogger. It's very

infuriating. I also my move has been in a lock room. I have like a handful of shoe horns from different clubs. Nice. They have those cheap little plastic ones. in the locker room, so I grab one when I go. When we played with Francis, and I didn't have one, I felt like an idiot. I saw many people. I, like, opened up a couple of lockers to see which one I would be able to take,

and, like, a couple of them were open. Like, I guess it's just, like, you're allowed to do that, and, like, no one steals from anyone because it's, like, such a nice country club. Right. But, like, I opened up, like, a lot of lockers, and, like, everyone had these little shoehorn things in there. I'm like, damn, someone's going to see my locker, and it's just going to be this floppy shoe. Like, yeah, right.

Shohornless guy. Like, that's a bad look. Terrible look. I've had a lot of bad looks Like I feel like when you walk through a country club You have to be prepared that you like you belong there And if you just walk through and like don't have the things that everyone else has That you stick out like a sore thumb

You know how when you go like when American goes to another country No matter how you try to dress everybody knows you're American Yes That's like when you go to a country club and you're not a member Everybody knows you're not a member I can dress I can act as much I can prepare for a month But once I step foot at that country club

Everyone knows I'm not a member They know My idiot roommate Lurch you I talked about all the time. We went to a really sick course like three weeks ago. We showed up in flip-flops and socks. They looked at him like, like, he was, like, showing up for a job. And he, like, you can't be a guy who's just like, I'm just going to own it.

I'm going to be this big guy and flip-flops. It's going to be funny. Sometimes they may work, though. They may be like, he's so comfortable and confident that that guy is, like, a new member. Unfortunately, he didn't do that. He bailed. And he was, like, right in that, like, middle zone where he just was like, it was bad. He was walking around, like, really embarrassed.

Like, I'm a fucking idiot. I'm like, yeah, the biggest idiot. it. Paul? Paul. All right, we got Paul. This one is specifically for Frankie. We got catty eyes in here. Paul says, how awful is it being the one guy in the foresum who's the eyes of the group,

seemingly the only one physically and or mentally capable of following a shot until the ball actually stops? Like, they just stop watching it in midair knowing it's over there and expect to find it 240 yards away in rough between 12 oak trees. I mean, this is very much directed at Frankie because you, historically, ever since we've been hanging out with you, are catty eyes. And you know where every single ball. When we were at the Masters, this was a big thing. That's why we got to stand behind Roy on that one show. Yeah, you guys hear it. You see it's coming.

You look somewhere else, and I'm locked in. It's a weirdest thing. I don't know what it is. It's really weird. It's almost like the sky turns gray, and it's just like a very white ball. See, I don't know how you, I don't know. So this is, we're going to get back to this question.

I don't know how you pick up balls when you haven't seen the origin of the flight is, that's crazy time. To be honest, the Rory one, like I, everyone looked in a certain way. I looked up and like I, you kind of just like, scour. It's almost like your Harry Potter looking for the golden snitch. I almost think you might have great hearing and you can like hear something. Like you can

you have a little hint like an inkling of hearing a ball and you look at a different spot there. There has to be one thing of yours that's just tuned up a little bit. I can't add it for many years and it's like you just can't lose the ball so it's like you train yourself and you and you you almost like look for where you think the ball's going to end up. Like you see a guy with a like an out to it like

an out to in swing and you see him looking to the right and all of a sudden you're just you're like looking to the right and you're scouring and you find it like there i am very very consistently like not seeing the ball right off the club see i have to finding it in the air i have to see it right off the face and i have to hone in on it the whole time and if i ever lose it i like never recapture my best move i love i'm so cocky with it is when someone hits a ball the right and i don't even watch it in the air i'll walk like up to the front of the t-box and i'll get down on a knee like if someone hits one in the tree i know exactly where it's going to the trees and everyone's not paying attention

and I'm like, I kneel down, and I'm looking into a part of the trees where I know I'm going to see it drop, and it drops every fucking time. I'm like, you're right there. So it's like the ball's in the air. I don't even look. The ball's in the air, I just walk. And then I kneel and I look and I see. That's it.

That's my steps. Those are my steps for finding the ball. That is the most cherished quality of a caddy. It's been able to find every ball. There's no better feeling than finding a ball that you don't think you're going to find when you're caddying. Because there's no more infuriating feeling when you have a caddy and your caddy, and your catty loses your ball, you're like,

that's the guy sucks. Right. This guy's a worst cat. I'm literally paying you to just look for balls. And like, you just couldn't find out of it. Like even though there's a billion other things to the job, right.

That one mistake is like, don't see it. I said, I tried to say that once in a member. He's like, that's just not good enough. I was like, I gotta be honest with you.

Like, I wish I did see it. Like, if we're going to be honest here, I wish I saw the ball, but I have no fuck for it. Like, I'm not purposely sabotaging your round

by not seeing your ball. All right, So there's no better feeling than finding one, but there's no worse feeling than, like, when you try and get cocky and you're like, all right, I'm just going to just going to the member walk to a certain spot. And all of a sudden, you see the member walk to the right and you're walking to the left. And he's just like, where's frankly going. Like, that's just not where I hit the ball. Like that's happened to me a lot. Yeah, that does.

Like, I'm like, you know what he must have hit on the left? I'm just going to walk there. And like, I'm walking and he's just like, dude, I just like dribbled it right here. Like, where are you? That's because you can't recover from that. He's like, ah, fuck, I thought. Like you were this ball. Yeah.

There's something with Frankie, though. I'm with Riggs. I think you have a natural talent for it, and you just also happen to caddy for a few years. Yeah, I think it's sharpened when you caddied, but, like, you have something. It's like, you're at the Masters, when Rory's balling over our fucking head, nobody in the world was looking there. Like, we didn't even know he hit. We were halfway to the ball. And you're just like, oh, there's Rory's ball.

It's like, it was a comet that came out of the sky. At a certain point, talent matters. Like, LeBron James plays basketball and another guy, they all train the same way. LeBron's going to be better because he has more talent. That's Frankie Borelli being caddies. I look at balls. I do this at baseball games too. I know when a home run, like, right away, like on the first one.

It was like I drink water behind home play at the Red Sock games. You just knows every time. It's a weird thing, man. Me in ball flights. Do you know, like, when a guy hits one, too, you know a lot of people watch it in the air the whole time? Like, you don't know depth perception people are terrible with. Like, you don't know if it's going over the green, flag high, 10 yards short in a buck. Like, every time a guy is going to be short in a bunker, do you just know immediately?

Yeah. You know, what's weird is my depth perception has actually been off recently. I've embarrassed myself recently where I've been like, I've screamed four, like, thinking that I'm the catty eyes. Yeah. Because like this question is, like how do you, so maybe this answers the question, do you hate being that guy? I think recently I hate being that guy because everyone expects me. This is a problem. Everyone expects me to call four, even if I'm not paying attention.

I could be like grabbing a beer. And it's like, Frankie, I just hit into that group. Like, why didn't you, why didn't you see that? So it's like, I feel like I have this. So recently I've been. It's a burden. You should start lying. Recently I've been trying to call the shot

and like it's embarrassing when it doesn't even come close. Yeah. When you're like 80 yards short of the guys and you yell four and it's like the cockiest move. I'm like, okay, buddy. My buddy hits a bar and I was like, four. I'm like, to the right.

He's like, dude, it's like, what are you talking about? And it's just like right down the middle, like a 200 yards. Like any great athlete, you might be past your prime. You might have just needed to stop. It's not that it's a death perception I've been off on, but like actually finding a ball, I'm still. So I do want to tell Paul, one thing that really infuriates me is when you're

I think everyone in the group should make a conscious ever you can't do it every time but like 95% of the time you can everyone in the group should be making a conscious effort to watch everyone's shot especially like on the tee like you should never be teeing off on the tea and you're the only person that saw yourself like hit

yeah and that happens sometimes like not very often but occasionally around it'll happen and like you lose your own ball and you're like all right where do you guys see that and everyone's like I wasn't paying attention it's like fuck you like that's the biggest fuck you move all time. Usually for the last guy to go,

everybody's like getting in the carts and stuff, and you hit it, and then you're just like, I don't know where that went. Anybody else see it? And they're like, no, and they're just drinking beers and it sucks. Then you're like,

then you're like adversarial towards those guys. Well, it also falls on the person on when they decide to hit though, right? Like, what if you were all walking up the green and like, you just like made a bad hole or something and you run up to the tee box and you're like kind of angry,

you just want to hit? And like, all of a sudden, like you're grabbing your club and you hear the noise. Like, did you just fucking hit the ball? It's like, what the hell just happened? And it's like, and then you go up there. It's like, did you guys see it?

It's like, no, because you're like a crazy person. You're, like, hitting before any of us get on the T-box. But I agree, if we're on the T-box, everyone pay attention. Watch the person's ball because you want to watch yours in the air. I got a buddy Greg who's a really good player, and we call him selfish Greg. And he's the fastest player in the world to the point where, like, if you're playing in a twosome with him, you'll be putting out and you'll hear your ball dropping the hole. And within a second, you hear him T-off.

Selfish Greg. I love it. It's great. Like, God forbid you put your head down for a second to, like, read a putt. You just hear, whee-in' back. It's like, are you keying up on seven already? You legit can't pull your ball out of the hole before you hear him tee off. And he, like, does a twirl and he's ready to rock.

It's hilarious. It's fucking laugh out. Damn it. Greg. Fucking Greg. Fucking Greg. So, Greg, I'm still on the fucking green, dude. Yeah.

What are you gaining? I don't know. He just likes to play fast. All right. Frankie Breally, that's from the gallery. Send us shit for play at barcialsports.com. Until next week. Until next week.

Love you guys. All right. That was Frankie Bruella, the pizza maker. Awesome, as always. Awesome. This is now Gilhan. All right, folks. We are now joined by a very unique guest for us,

something that's going to be a little different, something we're really excited about. We have one of the more prominent course architects in the game right now, Gilhands, who's, you know, you had the Olympic course, which is, of course, an original design. You've done a bunch of restoration work at some of the more historic sites in the U.S. such as Wingfoot, Marion coming up, the country club, et cetera, et cetera. But Gil, first off, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me on, guys. Yeah, we're really excited. We know you're kind of in the middle of a little stretch here. We know that if anybody pays attention to your work at all, you've been a very busy guy. Yeah, I mean, as you mentioned, sort of combination. As you should. So let's, you know, we've been thinking about the directions to take this and all that. I think a lot of people are almost every.

and will never be involved in, you know, designing a golf course. So one thing that I would love to kind of get started with is just talk about sort of the beginning of the process of your job. And I know they're kind of two or three different types of projects they work on. But an original design, for example, you know, where does that entire process even begin when you're going to build a course for someone from scratch? A lot of money. Just look at, all right, when you lock into a project like this,

you could be involved from like three or four years depending on the permitting. So you want to make sure that it's a place you want to go to. Once all that stuff is lined up, then you just start tackling the land and looking at it and saying, you know, you have to start ultimately make it all fit the landscape. So if we do our job and maximize the land-sustful project. So, you know, you mentioned, of course, different types of holes, and you kind of start to get, you know, in your head, in your brain, what's going to go here? I'm very curious, you know, what percentage of holes are sort of, would you consider pure original designs, right?

Because there's all types of inspiration from other holes, templates that people call them, et cetera, et cetera. How often do you get to, you know, you look at something, you go, you know what, this is something I've never really seen before that we've come up with here. Yeah, you know, you're always influenced by stuff that you've seen. I can't remember who said it, but it's, you know, the famous deal. Right. And so you're always looking at, you know, the weekend. I've got the, while you're, when I mentioned we've got all these great talented guys working with us, they're all actually look like.

And at that point in time is when you start borrowing or stealing concepts. And then you make that particular idea fit in. So, example, you know, let's say you guys, you lay out, you know, you come up with a layout. You say, okay, this first hole is going to be a par five. Are you sort of, you know, are you working backwards from the green backwards? Are you trying to think more from the T through the green, how someone would play it? Or kind of where is that original thought go through the hole? There's not a set in out of golf holders.

They really put them on the T and they're going to see the golf hole from the shot. I mean, they could be anywhere. They're not going to hit it right down the middle. They could be left. They could be right. They could be. So the view into the green is going to come from any number of angles. And then the only other spot where you know they're ultimately going to be is on the green.

From the green of a connect the dots from those two points. So that's why you're always looking for. That's really interesting. So talk a little bit about bunkering. And so, you know, I don't know. I've started to get a little bit more into course architecture in the last year or so. Again, we'd never consider ourselves experts at all. But, you know, I was going through bunkering, and I've been thinking about it a lot in the sense that I feel like, you know, some bunkers are almost feel purely aesthetic to me.

Others are actually, you know, menacing and punishing. And then sometimes I see, you know, a fairway bunker where a pro hit it in it and he still has. has a 120-yard wedge with a clean, perfect lie with great spin, and it's like it might as well not even be there. So I guess my first question with bunkering is, you know, if you took someone that had never played golf before, he took an alien, and they dropped down and they said, you know, what are sand bunkers because you've got the rest of the course is grass? What are these pits of sand, and what's the point of them?

Yeah, I mean, I listen to your podcast about your confit, which is all clay. I know how to explain as to why you touched on a few of the points. but I think every best use of bunkers are strategic in that, you know, we keep hearing the phrase is willing to take a present risk to play close to the bunker. You're going to should have, in theory, have a better angle. So I think the bet I think if golfers are good enough, they can look upon a golf hole and start to figure out, okay, if I do this, I do that. At the end of the day, generally not because they're consistent from one to the next to the other,

whereas, you know, the rest of us, we get to play public courses, architects in this country. he was quoted as saying, I think every morning they should run a troop on the golf course and make players. So you should have to pay some sort of price. And I think the early bunkers, as you witnessed and believe in our original designs that they should. Yeah, I could not be more in agreement with that, especially the elephant theory. I think we should do that for all the bunkers.

But, you know, it's a great example like you brought up of, you know, looking back at courses and kind of their original intent and what they did with Pinehurst number two and the restoration. there was a lot of talk about the last open that they had there, about there's going to be a little bit of inconsistency randomness in the waste areas. But again, that's what they had to work with, and that's how they built the original course. Yeah, and it all stems from the ground.

I mean, if you originally done, which was beautiful, natural. So I know at the Olympic course, there was, I believe, three different types of sand in the different bunkers around the course. Was this kind of along the same theory of kind of the natural sand, that was there and kind of a little bit of that inconsistency? Yeah, it was a number of, you know, in our minds we just couldn't, we couldn't justify going to the sandy site and trucking it through sand, red sand, and white sand. And what was really interesting to us and thought process-wise was that the play of the course

they began to realize, oh man, that white sand is trouble because it's real fluffy and the ball's going to plug the red sand's nuts. So now it wasn't so much a question of, all right, if I go in the bunker, I'm fine. it was like if I may not be fine. But at the end of the day, it was, listen, this is a naturally sandy sight, and if it had mode ourselves as being seen in our minds. And we were delighted that it was okay. And I, you know, I think all the players survived, so it was okay.

Yeah, I feel like golf's been embracing that point of view a little bit more, kind of reverting to that a little bit. But it's, you know, it's very true when you get those types of shots. And, you know, we play a ton of your average kind of muni or public course where you're going to get all kinds of bare spots and random inconsistencies in the grass. And it's, you know, I learned. kind of when I did go over to St. Andrews a little bit, that it's great because a lot of times you're going to be over there, and while a lot of Americans will look at a spot over there that's

bare and it's there, there's no grass, you've got to hit some kind of little four-iron punch shot or something through some rough. They're like, this is a dog track. You're like, well, actually, it's just, you're just playing on the ground however it is. Yeah, I think over to Scotland or are like that. You're right. You get to be creed. Right. And how often do you get to play a guy? I think that part of bond to adversity, then there's a certain little bit of a pick that We think, hey, that's okay. Yeah. It's a mental midget.

That's what we call it. We want to see how players mentally can kind of get through around. Absolutely. So you've been able to build a couple courses over in Scotland now. I played the other course at Creel. I did not get to play yours. And then you also built Castle Stewart. What was, you know, how unique and how different was that experience from building

and creating courses over in the U.S.? To build a golf course in Scotland as an American or, you know, it was just a laid. Yep. You know, he's now looking for his second adventure, and he finds Castle Stewart, finds this great piece of land up on the coast, taps us on the shoulder to work with him on that. And so now we've got a lot more experience. And Mark is just an amazing. From that standpoint, Castle Stewart was a little bit different, and they've played the Scottish Open there a handful of times and the player projects for us.

So we talked about Pioneers a little bit. Just recently opened the cradle, which is your nine-hole short course there. What is, you know, we've talked about kind of more of your traditional 18-hole, you know, some of them championship courses so far. What is the goal and kind of with a unique project like the cradle? Poles and, you know, this is a part of an 18-hole well. You really are starting, when you're building something like score down, but it's inside that and all that. That sounds great. Yeah, I mean, it's a beer and a giggle.

And when you're designing something like that, you just can't, let's have a good time of this because we want people to have a good time. Now that being said, we want to make sure it looks and feels like Pinehurst and that they're, you know, that sort of sandy scrubby to design. And it was almost libert. Oh, I'm sure it had to be. So I've heard you use, I've seen you use the word, you know, fun, many, many times when describing kind of your philosophy to design. What is, what are the parts of the game?

And, you know, I know you just touched on a little bit, but even, you know, you kind of used fun and creative, I believe, to describe the new course at StreamSong. I think it's the Black Course. Is that right? Yep, that's right. And so I'm curious, you know, what parts, right, when you're sitting there designing a course and you're thinking, I want this to be fun, what parts of the game are you focusing on, are you trying to highlight, what shots you're trying to highlight when you think fun? You know, I'm in an 11 handicap. Nearly as much golf, I'm not looking to get beat up.

I can't go that way. But as a way to car, every single, you know, whether you're questions, and if you're smart enough to do, love watching the Masters. Only tournament, sometimes, but it's almost the only tournament where you see the guys. aim away from the hole to get to the hole. Right. And I think that that is really fun when... Especially at 11, I was thinking. You know, look around because there's stuff out.

You know, I've got a fairly good sense of humor. My partner, hilarious. You won't have to. He's a hoot. But, you know, when you look around, you might... Have you ever played one of your own holes and thought to yourself as you hit a shot? Like, God damn it, I just fell into my own design trap? Yeah, one of my minutes down the road from where we live,

and it was one of our earlier designs. I'm on the T and I hit a shot and it's going on the damn it and the cat he looks and he goes well you put it there that's awesome it definitely happens do you ever play well first of all how frequently do you do you play your own courses I probably get in maybe 20 25 rounds a year and and if I get I play their yeah our guy Ryan Whitney who does our hockey podcast actually a member out at Boston Golf Club

Okay. Cool. So Trent and I were talking, you know, we write blogs for a living. You know, we write four or five, six blogs a day. And occasionally we go back over, you know, something will come up, stumble across one of our own blogs and be like, God, this is the worst shit I've ever seen. Have you ever, do you ever play a hole?

You don't have to mention if it's one of the holes we ever play or see some holes that you created and think like, oh, man, what was I doing? This hole stinks. Yeah, I think feedback. And when you're young and you're, you're, design idea you've ever seen anything early on. You mentioned owners and clients up top and you want to make them happy.

Have you ever made a hole or you designed something and a client goes, what the hell is this? Again, again, you don't have to name any names. But have you ever had a client not so happy and what is that process like? Not to the point where it's like on site so much and the client and owner is on site so much. Most of that stuff gets ironed out. You can pretty much from a design standpoint is if your expectation is that that's, slope outside the green. If you hit it, it's going to feed a ball down and the green. It's going to stay and your instinct can be too hot.

And those sort of getting that ball always hangs up there and we need to maybe. So we've talked to a good amount about, you know, some of your more original projects where you sort of design from scratch. You've also, as we touched on at the top, done a very good amount of restoration type work, you know, wing foot. And we had Steve Rabinoo on a couple of weeks ago. Is that three or four weeks ago? Yeah, a couple weeks ago. Who you've worked closely with over at Wingfoot. You know, what's... Great guy. Yeah, he's the man. He was awesome.

He was. So, I mean, I guess, you know, that's such a much different task coming in and being asked to, you know, sort of touch up, restore, et cetera, such historic sites like Wingfoot or like the Country Club up in Brookline. You know, I guess what are the more unique and different challenges in that versus the things that we've already talked about. Started the conversation is maybe your original work and restoration work. But from the design standpoint, we've always been big belief philosophy that the old dead guys knew what they were doing. We just need to lock into what Seth Rayner did at Sleepich, Thomas did at Los Angeles country.

They focus on how do we bring back what has been lost over, you know, 70 or 80 years. what did they do that is still relevant to the game today? Because obviously the game has changed, try and make this thing feel as if it was original. And I think by and large, after a period of time, we've been able to convince the members of the club yes, and of, yeah, you know what, we're taking care of. You can.

How nervous do you get when you're on one of these restoration projects and you have to go propose that you firmly believe you should add a bunker somewhere? And this comes from because I was at Marion a few weeks ago and people were floating rumors that someone was going to add a bunker somewhere, and I was like, that must be a tricky little conversation. That was on a plan, deferred to something they wrote, or put a bunker in the left tee. Well, so we, you Wilson, I think at that point in time, you just have to hope that the membership trusts you. And to be honest, guys, there's sometimes where you don't even plug that into the thought process,

and you just hope, all right, listen, you know, kind of build on them, and come back and ask. Do you hate trees as much as our guy, Steve? Really? That's going to be hard to be because he was scared to even answer about trees. He was so mad about it. Yeah, he gave it the old. He can be pretty scary. Let's be honest. I mean, he can be a scary guy.

You know, I get to work for superintendents and architects because I enjoy getting dirty. You know, good design. I mean, most of the time, not really think it's like cut off. 99.9% of golfers appreciate that when the greens are rolling great and smooth, the architects are the rock stars and we relation, I mean, if we design a golf course, to be played in a certain way, and we want the ground game to be emphasized, and the superintendent main, the design doesn't work, and hand-in-hand working to decisions like that. Gil, that was the longest-winded form of I-hate-trees.

You hate trees. Did I dance around that, okay? Very political, I hate trees answer. That's solid. You've been working on that one. But the part about the superintendent is in BS. I mean, that was really, I was heart and soul of the... Yeah, I've gotten lucky enough to get to know a lot of the guys up at.

Wingfoot pretty well. They love the show. Shout to those guys. And they said that pretty much Steve might be the only guy that likes Wingfoot more than they do. All in the right. So we talked a little bit about you just touched on how, you know, most people don't even appreciate good design. I want to talk a little bit about Pine Valley. You know, I know everybody sees it come up pretty frequently as the greatest course, you know, perhaps on the planet, but it just doesn't get the exposure. It doesn't have the tournaments that all these other courses have. So most people don't really know anything about it. You know, what is that makes Pine Valley that awesome.

All the different lengths, and he was able to configure that ideal golf course on the ideal piece of golfing ground, meaning golf course you can ever play. Bad swing away from an eight block it or pushing a shot with a, you know, a bag's in you. It's just effectively laid out. So the reason that, you know, we're able to get you on the show,

I've got to talk about my guy, Anthony, mutual buddy of mine. So we're in Pebble. This is a guy that I went to Pebble with about a month ago. You know, we're at dinner. We're four or five glasses of wine deep. We're having a good time. And he brings up, he's like, oh, yeah, as you guys know, I have my own mound on the Olympic course. And I start saying, you know, I'm like, Anthony, you're an asshole.

You don't have your own mound on the Olympic course. So sure enough, he goes on and pulls out his phone. He starts showing me pictures like, that's my mound. I got to hear it from the architect himself. Does my guy Anthony have his own mound? Of course, I'm a music, and frequently, he made an abs, I get on there to clean it up. And I'm like, you know, because it's a long par for players, if they get in trouble, we'll be landing the ball short, and it could kick balls left, right, or whatever.

It's cleaned it up, and it's there. And it actually came into play on a couple. I remember texting him watching that camera as one of the ladies playing, and it did exactly what we thought it was. And I'm like, oh, my God, Anthony, look your mouth. It worked. Awesome. Oh, that's incredible.

Well, all right, go, we really appreciate it. We, you know, I'm a big fan. Like I said, I've done a good amount of reading in the last, this last year, so I've really gotten into architecture, come across your name of ton. Anybody out there, if you're ever around a Gilhance course, you get a chance to play one. Highly, highly, highly, highly recommend. And we really appreciate you taking the time. How many times have you seen Dave Matthews live?

It's a lot. Is it? Yeah. Come on. Give us a number, Gil. Woo! I just had to ask. I just had to ask.

Trent was fist pumping when you said Dave Matthews. I was, I was excited. I'm a big fan as well. So I feel you. Yeah, that's better. Can't beat it. That's nice. It's a great way to finish.

Thanks, Gil. Thanks, guys, for having me on. All right, we really appreciate it. Take care. All right, folks, awesome show this week. We really hope you enjoyed. We're really proud of this one. It was a good time.

As always. Reminder, send us suggestions for throwback week. Obviously, it's going to be Tiger Woods related. We've noted it down to that, especially with the comeback. Every single submission we've gotten has been Tiger Woods related anyway. So we're just going to pick from that. So send us those. send us from the galleries now that we've got Frankie Borelli we really got to step up send us

more of those send us those those will be great so send us more for play at barstolesolesports.com is how you send those in also go to store.barsdlesports.com get yourself some merch get yourself a tiger shirt we got quarter zips coming black Friday a little teaser we've got a couple different colors they are absolutely fresh I am a quarter zip kind of sore you are your quarter zip season you started quarter zip season we did a whole deal with the production of the We took it very seriously. It worked with the merch team. I vented about that here.

The reason that we did all that is because we wanted it to be awesome, high-quality quarter-zips that someone like me would wear anyway. If you could see the behind-the-scenes work that especially Riggs has done with our merch team, you would want one of these. It's hard. It's blood, sweat, tears. We've been pushing and pulling at each other and grinding and fucking scratching and clawing, and we've come to an awesome product.

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