Founder's Story - Burnt Banksy: How Burning $95K of Art Changed Crypto | Ep 264 with Burnt Banksy Founder of XION

Episode Date: September 30, 2025

As an NYU student, Anthony mined ETH until the dorms “asked him not to come back,” collected early NFTs, and—after a lucky GameStop options win—bought a $95K Banksy print with two friends for one reason: to burn it and sell the moment as an NFT. The plan was part dare, part experiment, not a get-rich scheme. What followed was a week of whiplash: Vice photos, Forbes first coverage, BBC calling for comment and publishing a slam thirty minutes later, a Toyota Camry breakdown on the Van Wyck with a Banksy in hand, and a final sale near $400K. The hate was real; the lesson was bigger. Being anonymous forced him to let action speak, and the public’s confusion exposed a harder truth: crypto, as used by normal people, was unusable. That’s the seed of Xion—make crypto disappear behind experiences people already understand. Key Discussion Points:Anthony unpacks how the Banksy burn wasn’t destruction but translation: moving value from paper to a new medium and testing whether culture would accept it. Half the crowd called it idiotic; the other half called it genius—and he admits he didn’t know which it would be. The post-burn months became a proof loop: dozens of Clubhouse NFT launches, a window into how attention compounds when the product is simple and the story is clear. He contrasts that with today’s Web3 friction—seed phrases, bridges, gas, Metamask—and makes the case that Xion exists to remove all that: walletless by default, mobile first, sign-in with familiar IDs, and rails that let products ship without forcing users to learn crypto. We drift into the value of anonymity as an innovation unlock—embarrassment becomes cheaper, experiments get bolder—and the double edge of social media, the most potent dopamine machine in history and the new gatekeeper of distribution. On AI, he’s pragmatic: it’s a calculator for creativity—an amplifier, not a replacement—shrinking the menial so people can actually say something. He loves the mischief brand of guerrilla making and hints that once the platform is ready, the provocations will return—this time at scale, powered by Xion. Takeaways:Attention is today’s currency, but utility is tomorrow’s moat. The Banksy burn proved that narrative can vault a new medium into relevance; the years after proved that unless crypto feels like nothing—no wallets, no jargon, no hurdles—most people will never cross over. Xion is built around that thesis: hide the chain, surface the value, meet users where they already live (their phone and their existing login), and let developers build products people touch without noticing the rails. Anonymity can catalyze audacity; simplicity sustains it. Closing Thoughts:Anthony’s arc reads like a thesis: provoke to reveal the seams, then engineer them away. If Guernica turned pain into picture, Burnt Banksy turned a picture into protocol—and Xion is the rails that make the protocol disappear. If you see him at Korea Blockchain Week, ask about the next stunt; odds are, the art will be the interface and the chain will be invisible. Get more leads and grow your business. Go to https://www.pipedrive.com/founders and get started with a 30 day free trial. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Today's episode is sponsored by Pipe Drive, the number one CRM tool for small to medium businesses. I'm excited to share more about them later in the episode. Anthony, aka Bert Banksy, how your name even came about. So I'm calling from New York. I've lived in New York for about 10 and 11 years at this point. Went to New York University and NYU gave me free electricity. Long story short, I found out you could mine Ethereum and I got kicked out of the door. And fell in love with crypto.

We were looking at this market, and we're like, let's see something cool. I am a broke college student. They end up making enough money off of game staff options is legitimately how I get this money. In order to go buy a $95,000 banksy art piece with the sole intention of setting it on fire, hence an invert banksy. And so we did that. We bought it. We lit it on fire. We sold it as an NFT.

We got vice to perpetually photograph it. and we sold it for about $400,000, which was really, really exciting. Blocal lot of records was anonymous for a little while because of all the hate I got, which was incredible. I realized that crypto is an unusable from the application layer and built Zion to make crypto usable. Today we're going to do something very different, and that's why I can't wait. Anthony, a.k.a. Burt Banksy, which, by the way, I've never had a guest on that was not their just their first name. So I'm actually happy to, I'm going to call you Burt, Mr. Burt.

And I'm excited to talk through stories. You know, sometimes we get serious. We just had a whole finance person on talking about the markets and such. And I feel like I just want to storytell. And that's why I think we've got so many stories in Web 3. You got so many stories. There's a lot of stories the last few years. But I want to start off with how your name even came about. Yeah.

Yeah. I'll give you the name about and then how I got into crypto because they're kind of similar. So I'm calling from New York. I've lived in New York for about 10 and 11 years at this point. Went to New York University. Consensus was kind of just getting started when I was a freshman. And NYU gave me free electricity. Long story short, I found out you can mind.

Ethereum and I got kicked out of the dorms. Technically, I wasn't kicked out. I was just asked, I was not allowed back at the dorms. Huge, huge difference. And fell in love with crypto. It was pretty much just mining for a while, working at a few projects on the side, but nothing like really, really full time.

And, you know, was a pretty avid collector of like, you know, I lost a couple of crypto punks in the Mount Gox hack. And, you know, it had some crypto kitties, but it was an interesting time and NFTs were definitely not what they were today. And so suffice to say that we were looking at this market and we're like, let's see something cool, me and two friends. And I am a broke college student

and I end up making enough money off of GameStop options is legitimately how I get this money. in order to go buy a $95,000 banksy art piece with the sole intention of setting it on fire, hence the name burnt Banksy. And so we did that. We bought it. We lit it on fire. We sold it as an NFT.

We got Vice to professionally photograph it. And we sold it for about $400,000, which was really, really exciting. And broke a lot of records was anonymous for a little while because of all the hate I got, which was incredible. And we can go into that. That's why we have two names. And then realize that crypto isn't unusable from the application layer and built Zion to make crypto usable.

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Yeah, we definitely didn't think we would make any money off of it. And so that was a pleasant surprise to say the very least, I will say. The very pleasant surprise to say the very least. I didn't think we'd make any money off of it. So I think that most of it was probably like the media virality factor. It's like, you know, maybe we lose half of our money. Maybe we get lucky and we break even. Doubt it.

But let's do this because I don't know. Like, I really wish I could tell you the reason. There's a lot of things that I do. and we'll probably get to it which you know if you would have asked me why I did it I don't know I don't have an actual answer because it seemed cool and I just kind of wanted to do it reminds me of you know the the purple cow

or you know there's people who do really interesting billboards and things to create attention because we already know nowadays attention is hard and it's so fast and everything is just moving I mean three four years ago it's different than it is now, which is kind of insane, right? You know, the industry moves quick, and if you're not grabbing attention, then you just

disappear in the space. But I remember the NFT days, by the way, so we were really active on Clubhouse. You remember? That's where everything happened was on Clubhouse. Of course. It was insane. So I remember when BoardApe launched and my friend at the time's like, it was $600 and he's like, you've got to get in.

He bought a couple at $600. And I was like, no, it sounds, I don't even understand what it is. I don't even understand NFTs. But we did it. We had a pretty good community there. It was pretty large. So people were launching NFTs, like on the platform that we, that we created within Clubhouse. But I didn't really understand it.

And I missed the boat. Everything I bought was crap. So I never bought a Banksy or anything of value. I didn't buy any of the board apes, even though he kept telling me to do it. I bought all crap that never turned into anything. But it isn't it funny to. think back to those days. It was, you know, it's funny. Like, I remember after the Banksy auction, um, my, my whole thing was like, you know, I've seen a lot of grifters in the space and especially

at the time. And I, I think, like, one of the things that I really wanted to drive home is because I was this brand new identity online that kind of popped up a week ago. And I didn't want people to know who I was. Like, I had worked beforehand, but I didn't really want to show that. You know, I, I got like a pretty profound idea of what it was like to be a builder. in the space or like an anonymous builder in the space and I actually I do miss being an anonymous builder because it's all about action and there's no aspect of trust me available which personally I enjoy and I remember you know I was one of my big fears was like oh my god people are going to think that I'm here just just like one one and done but afterwards I you know whether it was the

Alec Monopoly auction or the pussy riot auction or a naked philanthropist you know I ended up doing about 40 Clubhouse and a few launches, just based off of that, you know, and trying to, like, give back in the way that people helped me. And, you know, a lot of the, like, the only force founder came out of the whole burnt Banksy thing. I remember he told me that he was a gym, he was the, actually, I probably don't want to docks him. Sorry.

So how does one even buy a Banksy? I always wanted to know that. This is a great story. Sorry. I even is real. This is a great story. because I must have been 21 at the time, maybe 22. And I've never, obviously, bought an art.

This has just never been a thing for me. But we go to, you know, I'm in New York, and they have the exact piece that we wanted, which was morons. And we walk in. We just walk into this gallery. It's me and two friends who are dressed in almost equivalent of pajamas. it's like New York winter time

and so like a deed of sweatpants like an overcoat doesn't match at all. No one who in the right mind is trying to buy art. Like it looks like we're loitering. And we walk in and we're like we don't know what we're doing so we're like you know one one please like one one Banksy please

and we originally would like you guys imagine you don't take crypto and they're like no we don't take crypto but like okay like how do we do this like cash like in my mind I'm imagining like a briefcase that's like handcuffed to me with a with $95,000

in cash and they're like yeah that works you could also just wire us the money we're like oh okay yeah let's do that and it's just like this series of stupid events we kept the banksy and my friends

maybe 400 square foot apartment for like four months as we planned everything it was it was an absolute nightmare but it was so much fun how did you then figure out okay so you buy it which i i would have no idea how to get one either so uh and you know what it really is comfortable wearing pajamas so you it is even don't understand how you can get judged but you know when you're in new york or l.a you want to dress down right you want to dress down so you buy this art now you're planning it out, and how do you start to get the attention before the launch?

So we created the profile picture or used a profile on Twitter, I would say maybe like two weeks before. And we got it circulating within the crypto community, I would say, first, just because we knew the crypto community after years of already working in crypto space. And so that was kind of like the snowball tour. you know we had a bunch of friends who you know friends at open sea which at the time they were like the only one um you know at open sea was crazy crazy back in the day it was like they had all you from zero to a trillion and like i know and then uh right right alongside clubhouse and then um you know you had like foundation too if you remember that one um but opency was the one that survived um obviously and you know so we started there we

The way that we did it was we had a photographer from Vice professionally photograph it. We had like a PR, like a one-off PR team just for this one thing. And they were really, really helpful in getting the initial circulation. I think the first one was Forbes, was the first real article that we got. And the way that we did it was we bought, we burned the Banksy in my friend's backyard in Long Island. because we didn't have a lot of places to let anything on fire. French backyard in Long Island. We took an Uber.

We took an Uber there, and there's this great photo of my friend holding the painting, getting into this Toyota Camry, and then breaking down on the side of the Van Wick Expressway in New York, and we're just standing there where the banks are in the hand. Oh, that's great. But so then we then let it on fire, and immediately the press start rolling out,

which is super lucky, like, could not have been more lucky with that. The press starts rolling out, and one thing leads to another. We've got a week of, like, really hard press. I'm on interviews pretty much 24-7. You know, BBCS or a comment, and then 30 minutes later, they post a slam piece about us, which was awesome. Walk around with the New Yorker. It was really, like, it was everything in the world that you could have dreamed it to be and more.

and was doing those interviews and then came time to sell it when it did sell and it sold for $400,000 even more blew up and the piece was called Morons which I loved and so everyone kept calling us morons which was perfect so it's like morons sell for $400,000 it was incredible

man that see that that was the good part that I enjoyed about the space because there was a lot of this fun And like people didn't want to take everything so serious, which I think I enjoy that, right? And the fact that you, that you can do that as well. So you go from anonymous, nobody really knows who you are, to now being, you know, quote unquote famous, getting a lot of notoriety. Now everyone knows who you are. And I think you mentioned earlier that you got some hate.

How did you deal with that? um it was you know that's a great question you know what you really kind of realize in that moment it's like it was more the people who didn't understand and i was very public on clubhouse i pretty much lived on clubhouse and i very much welcomed all criticism um because it was how can you burn a bansi how can you do this to art and i'm like well we're not disuring it the ideas we're transferring it you can still buy it um you know and prerequisite with this is an experiment like we're just trying something new. And we want to see if it works. That's it. And, you know, I think that, like, I would say that, like, maybe half of the people that I spoke to was just like, okay, like,

I see this is like an actual experiment. Like, there has been other examples of destroying other art to change the medium of it, which I am blaking on the names right now, but something that I commonly cited back in the day. You know, but I think that, like, if you understood what we were doing it was you know it's one of these moments that this is either the stupidest thing in the world or the most genius thing in the world and we didn't even know which is how you know you're doing something right i feel like a lot of things in history we're like either this is going to be amazing and we're genius it's brilliant or it's the worst thing ever and it's stupid you are bigger idiots i would say probably the greatest moments in most most throughout

history the things that we consider are great we're probably in that moment if you go it's 50, 50. It could go left or right, you know, good or bad or whatever you want to say. And this one went good. You got some hate. And then you moved on. Obviously, NFT kind of like, you know, kind of fizzled as a whole. But then here we are. I think cryptos, I mean, it's been like obviously just exploding the last few years. It's just the amount of people that I know that are in crypto that, you know, five years ago, even probably four years ago would be like, I would never touched that right yeah the all these institutions and all these people um at the same time like i have maybe two accounts throughout my throughout my time in crypto since about 2017 that i

lost the phrases and i don't know what happened to those accounts and hopefully there's nothing left in them so i don't have to get sad about it but what was the problem that you were solving with crypto because i think it's it's sort of related yeah i um It was impossible. Like, it was impossible for people to use. And I think that the, you know, the idea that you need to medamats, the idea that you need to bridge over and learn what an Ethereum wants and learn what gas fees are and learn all this stuff and save the phrases.

I mean, crypto is unusable. It really is. Even to the stage, it's pretty unusable. And there's no real products for it outside of pure speculation. So what we're trying to do is make it a real industry. You know, I feel like I've been in this industry for way too long and have not seen enough progress that I want to see. And that pisses me off.

And so I want to change up. What was the best coin that you ever bought at the best price? Like, did you buy Bitcoin at a dollar? Did you buy Ethereum at 25 cents? Is there anything that you could put? You don't have to say the amount, but is there? No, yeah. I got it.

I would say my mining days. I mean, the issue is, it was funny. My parents told me to sell immediately every time I mined. And I listened. And we made some good money. but it wasn't until the last bull market that I did the math on it and realized that their advice lost me. I think it was like $78 million or something like that.

And so I realized to stop listening. Your kids at home, don't listen to your parents. But that was probably it, but obviously I sold. I think there was a funny one where I built on Solana really, really early, and I built up Solano when it was a dollar. And it was funny because you needed Solana to deploy Solana contracts. tracks and I remember after all of a sudden done I checked a couple years later and it was like I was maybe a couple hundred thousand that went right to like him it was it was company money

not really you know not mine but it was a couple hundred thousand were just like oh okay well that's that worked that well you know I there's so many moments of that I mean the fact that you I mean you know what though but what's 78 million dollars you know I mean like would you be happier today if you had I wouldn't be here that's what I tell everyone like the whole like oh you know I lost this and a hack or this and so it's like you wouldn't would you have sold like would you have really held on to this day I remember freaking out when Ethereum cost $50 and being like oh my god this is it it only you know it almost hit 5,000 the other day I was like I don't think that through the cycles like this I would have been able to I will say that like I did ride and I

still do ride like ethereum i think my my average entry is like seven hundred which is good like it's obviously four thousand but you know i'm very happy about it um but it's not like i'm ever going to sell that either right and that's these on a ledger well that's that's the thing right yeah if i bought bitcoin at two dollars i probably would not still have had it today at some point i would have exited out or maybe it was during a dip or whatever it was, it's only the people that are like already wealthy where they didn't need to touch it. I feel like, yeah, the ones that have kept it because they said it need to touch it. Exactly. It's like, it would be like, here, let's use all the money we have to buy this token that

we know it's going to go up. And it's just like, well, that's all the money that we have now. Like when is that right time? And it's annoying because it's a perpetuating thing, right? Like now at 3,000, it's like, well, I'm not going to sell it to get to 10,000. And you know what's going to happened at 10,000. Same thing. But it's funny. I want to, you know, I just had a, I just had an interesting kind of thought, which was like, you know, I saw something on Instagram the other day that embarrassment is a under-explored emotion. And I believe that, you know, to the point of the Wild Wild West in crypto, I think that the anonymity really helped spur innovation because people were not afraid to try and be embarrassed and fail. You could fail very easily being an

anonymous account or being an anonymous user. And I think that there's actually something quite beautiful to that because, you know, and there's two sides to that either you embrace your real name of Anthony Anselaun and you say, I can be embarrassed and that's okay. Or you can say, I'm Berne Banksy and this can fail, but that's okay as well. So it's just an interesting anecdote that I just kind of thought about right now and I think why we don't see you know in the same way that my PR team doesn't want me to be anonymous anymore

I think that's also why we're losing the spur and the innovation in the spaces because there's so much criticism and there's so much almost hate that it's that yeah that's not that you you really should have explore embarrassment more I guess well you bring up a good point right

I think it's the original idea is doxing or unmasking, whatever, it creates trust because you know or see the person. However, the person is now under a lot of pressure that may be unneeded pressure because if something goes wrong, their name and everything gets dragged on. But we know business is risky in the sense. Look at so many companies that, you know, have tried, look at we work or whatever, you whatever company, right? Like, it could go amazing and then all of a sudden it can go south. Sometimes it's because of the founder and sometimes it's out of their control.

It's like all these investors, you know, like you put your money in 10 and you hope one hits. You know nine are going to, 90% failure rate plus. So that is a fast. I really like that point, though, around anonymity can spark creation. What I guess we even think be prior to social media, right? like prior to social media pretty much everyone was anonymous and they were doing a lot of things how do you feel about social media i'm i'm really torn about social media in general like i obviously have benefited i know people have benefited financially and it's created great things but the same token i'm also just scared around people like in your age bracket and others and and how social media is going to impact the world you know it's a great it's again great question, but I think it's, it's, again, so much, first of all. Like, I think that social media is one of the most addicting things in the world. I think on a pure time basis of dopamine basis, it's probably one of the most

addictive things, you know, one of the highest causes of anxiety, one of the highest causes of mental strain, you know, and I fully subscribe to it. Like, I really, there's a book by Cal Newport Digital Minimalism that I come back to over a few months and it's just about like pretty much as unplugging and you know I find myself in these habits of like consistently checking Instagram or Twitter and you know I think there's an obdiscation with some of it that's like you know personal versus work right where like my Twitter is my work right but I also I'm lucky enough and I'm fortunate enough to love what I do and so it doesn't really feel like work and there's a there's like a bad it's like a bad omen there in a way where

excusing myself because it's work, you know, but there's a lot of negatives. There's a lot of negatives, but then, you know, there's also a lot of positives. Like, I think to your point, this is now an attention economy. Like, that is what this is. And there's a lot of times where I'll look at like a pitch for something. And it doesn't need to make revenue. It really doesn't need to make revenue, but show me the attention that it can capture. And sometimes that's better than revenue. and I think that that's that's going to be the case for a lot of things and you know you get messages that can be spread quicker but they also dissipate quicker you know and so you got to choose your poison and I think we're way too far gone to be able to go back that's deep man I want to read that book digital minimalism I'm going to get that book up how do you feel about AI so and when it relates to how it's going to impact currency how it's going to impact jobs, the world.

Like, are we going into Star Trek, or do we go into Terminator, or is it none of the above? I was just reading something around, it was like, all jobs, the 99% of jobs will basically disappear by AI. I mean, you don't want to know my side of this, because everyone hates on me for my, my personal opinion, because they think it's negative, but I actually have a very positive opinion. Like, I don't want to work 40 hours a week, but I want to work. I want to work two hours a week.

I would rather do this. Like, I want to go hang out with Burn Banksy and just chill. And, like, I don't want to have to work. So, like, Liz, like, I don't even want to have a job. But how do you see the thing on technology? I think that the way that I look at, like, the way that I look at AI is very similar to, like, a calculator, right? Like, we're not going to stop doing math now that we have this computer doing math for us.

We're going to do more complicated things. And I think complexity is going to rise and the menial things are going to ideally dissipate. There's Rick Rubin said this, but I really resonate with what he said, where he compared it to, like, the punk rock music, where before you needed to, like, go to a conservatory, you know, really learn the instrument, really learn, you know, really learn the sound, find your own sound, learn all the music theory, et cetera, instead of years to be a musician. But then when punk came on the scene, all you needed was like three chords. really could just get started. And you really, if you wanted to be and you had something to say, you got started immediately. And I think the way that he looks at AI is kind of the way that I'm starting to look at AI, which is the, if you have something to say, it gets easier to have something to say. And you don't need to be technically complicated or you don't need to do that

menial work and the menial labor to actually say something where I think that, you know, it's funny, you could tie this into crypto as well, but it's like there's not a lot of real people saying real things. There's a lot of technically, you know, knowledgeable people doing technically complicated things, but not really saying anything with it. And so I think that AI is going to be, you know, a step up in civilization. Do I think it immediately gets us as to Star Trek? No. I think it's another tool. I think it's another tool that can help us. I think it can, you know, ideally mitigate menial stuff. But machine learning has been going on for a while. Chatbots have been on for a while. Like, I think with every new technology narrative, similar to what crypto was in 2017, how

everyone's like, it's going to change the world. It's like, oh, are we already, you know, are we destroying the banks yet? It's like, no, it's going to take time. It is a, it is an amplifier. It is not a replacement is how I view AI. Well, I'm excited about robotics and humanoid. I feel like, yeah, me too. Like, if I did wrong, me too.

I was just arguing with someone. I'm like, dude, they will not be a plumber. my robot can learn from YouTube and do my plumbing or my mechanics like whatever i'm excited about that but if i could have any job right now i would want to be a DJ like if money was not your truth dude live your truth you i'm thinking about getting the DJ set but if you could have any job or do anything and it had nothing to do with the money what would it be what i'm doing now i'm be honest with you like uh you know there's a there's that uh i feel like if i was doing this for money i would stopped a while ago um i i really love what i do i believe in what i'm doing and and it's

fucking exciting like there's going to be more burnt banksy stuff and i think that that is like doing more of that is going to be exciting but for the past four years i had to build the platform to be able to do that so that people could use it and now that people can actually use the platform and i can build what i want to do like um um I'm excited to, you know, are you familiar with the company, Mischief? I'm a CHF? Yep. That's my dream.

And I think that that's where we're going to as a company, which is extremely excited. Because it's guerrilla marketing. Like, it's product launching in an attention economy. So when we interviewed Gary Vee, he said the same thing you said. I asked them the same question. He said, I would be doing what I'm doing right now. Are you going to, I mean, this is like the event season.

every year I always go to Token 2049 in Singapore great event love the side events Marquis is going to be an epic event this year Korea Blockchain Week I need to go because I'll be I was supposed to... I'm not going to be I know I'm actually in Southeast Asia

leaving in a few days but are you going to be heading out to any of these events any conferences where can people find you out there can they meet you? We're going to be doing KBW really really hard We're not going to do token 2049 this year, but we're doing Korea Blockchain Week really, really hard. And so we're excited for that one the most, I will say.

Man, well, I have a lot of friends in Korea. I'll connect you. Please, yeah, let's be shot after that, Steve. Yeah, no, I'm excited. So we, the reason Asia really excites me. So number one, we have a nonprofit around AI, and we provide education around the world. We have a lot of chapters in Asia.

But at the same time, we also, three years ago, started a a crypto type event in Southeast Asia and I got to tell you as like as the excitement of NFTs and stuff was dying in the US

that excitement was like really building up in Southeast and Eastern Asia surprisingly and going into like Korea blockchain week's huge so it's a really I think it's great and exciting when when you can go all around the world and you can see different communities

and different people and and And just the excitement and like what, you know, how people will benefit for something. It used to be like it would only be in, you know, your country, your town, your city, your home. But now you can, you know, do something like what you're doing, which can impact people all around the world. And it's amazing feeling. But if people want to get in touch with you, Burnt Banksy, if they want to meet you at Korea Blockchain Week and be a part of the events, how can they do so? Yeah, I mean, follow me on Twitter, Burn Banksy.

the um yeah discord burnt zion twitter burn zion um but burnt banksy is in twitter for me um and yeah i should post a lot so that heads up i like that burnt bansy well thank you mr burnt mr bern mr please that was my father this dr burnt now mr burnt i appreciate your time though i like the name that so i really man you got me thinking about like how how you know what other type of of attention creations can happen in this world there was a guy who there was an author what is his name ryan he does the books about uh oh my gosh what he used to do write books about marketing digital marketing now he writes books about stoicism i'm blanking out his name uh marcus aurellium

just kidding yeah right maybe that so his first book was all about doing wilds it came out like a long time ago, all about doing wild stunts and getting it. Oh, send it to me. Oh, yeah, it's like maybe 15 years old. It's really, really good book. Now he just writes about stoicism, but it really opened on my eyes maybe 10, 12 years

ago, and he did some very interesting things. But man, this has been great. I wish I could see you in Korea, but hopefully I'll see you in New York since we go there frequently as well. Oh, we just do definitely. Amazing. Zion. Banksy, thanks for joining us on Founders Story. Thank you. Thanks for having me.