Founder's Story - Dropped Out of College and Created a Company then Exited | Ep. 8 with Marisa Fong

Episode Date: April 13, 2020

Inspired by her Ep. 8 we have guest Marisa Fong who co-founded The Madison Group in 1998, successfully growing it to become New Zealand’s largest, privately owned Recruitment Company.  Having won numerous awards, it was acquired in 2013 by listed public. Please visit Pix11 or Fox5 San Diego for more details. Our Sponsors:* Check out PrizePicks and use my code FOUNDERS for a great deal: www.prizepicks.com* Check out Rosetta Stone and use my code TODAY for a great deal: www.rosettastone.comAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

We are live. Hi everyone, this is Kate and I have here Marisa Fong. Hi Marisa. Hey, from New Zealand. Yes, all the way from New Zealand. What time is it there right now? It's Monday. It's Monday, just after 11. After 11. Well, I'm very excited for you to be here. I met you in Portugal. Yes. Yes, and I remember we were having dinner with your husband was there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I really had a great conversation with you. And so I really appreciate you joining our podcast today I'm really excited to I've been listening to your other ones they're really good so I was excited to be invited thank you so Marissa everyone co-founded the Madison Group in 1998 successfully growing it to become New Zealand's largest private-owned recruitment company. And currently, she's a non-executive independent director of Listed Company and Price Group, co-founder of Arne Skincare, which I'm passionate about. You're launching it this year.

I can't wait to hear all your story. Category judge for New Zealand, New Zealander of the Year, a trustee of simplicity and new law fees and not-for-profit KiwiSaver fund. So you're doing a lot of things. How do you have time,issa yeah I yeah I just I guess I'm just managing it I'm just managing it and just kind of trying to find slots in the diary and just be semi-disciplined about what I say yes to you know but it's really hard for me to say no to stuff so that's probably why I end up doing things more things than I should right I think we're all guilty of that okay so I read this article

and it says that you drop out twice in college right yeah so tell me about that with your parents okay oh yeah just so not okay with that um you know look my parents are a typical immigrant story you know arrived in New Zealand to give their children a better life and really wanted them all to get college educations because that's what they didn't have the opportunity to do and me being the oldest it's even worse because I'm meant to be setting the role model you know know, being the role model. And I guess it just didn't take. I just couldn't sit in a classroom and be talked at in theory.

And I just couldn't get my head around it. And it really kind of bothered me, you know. Like I thought, why can I not do this? So I tried a couple of times. But it really just wasn't me. And I was too social, way too social. That didn't help. Yeah, so that really, I guess, and also because when I was younger, my parents and I didn't get on. So because I was too independent, and I ended up leaving home very early and getting a job really early so I could find I found that I could make money and get jobs more easily than I could apply myself at college so that was kind of like well I can do that and I can't do that so I'll do that then so that's how

it happened all right so um where did you grow up so so here's what I say made in Hong Kong born in New Zealand my mother arrived here seven months pregnant um with me so um born in New Zealand Auckland which is the biggest city but not the capital and Auckland is known for quite a transient population because we're one of the biggest cities so lots of people come regionally into the city so but I'm one of the few handful I would guess or a few core that was actually born and bred here yep raised here. Okay so so describe a person or a situation from your childhood that had a profound effect on the way you look at life. Oh, that's a good question.

So I guess I had this saying about having a foot in each camp, right? Where you don't really fit with the local culture because we were one of the only Asian families in our neighborhood right so there was one other family which was ethnic which was indigenous they were Maori so we had one Maori family and one Asian family at primary school so you, and it was really interesting because people say it wasn't that difficult. We were there, you know, we do experience racism. I have this really weird view on that.

And in fact, I flipped it the other way and I didn't even know I really did this because I actually thought we were special. I thought, actually, we stand out. We're kind of different. we're not the same as everybody else that's kind of cool so I actually took it from a different point of view because everybody knew us right like it was we know that family because they're the only people that are Chinese in this neighborhood so I guess I have to say that I felt very protected in a way from that point of view but also my mother was

also very fiercely protective of us and I remember a few times if she ever thought we were being discriminated against particularly in the local grocery store or somebody passed a comment or something my mother who is amazing was like she must have only been like 20s in her early 20s right she's this woman that's not in a familiar environment she would just call them out like had no fear absolutely no fear and calling them out in front of us and protecting us all the time so I think I get that feeling of being special and positive about it because of her protective fierce fiercely protective instincts and that she would absolutely visibly demonstrate that to us so pretty pretty when you think about it now it's like wow a lot

of women would just kind of pretend it wasn't happening and shuffle their kids out right but yeah no my mother was never never gonna let that happen do you consider your mom as a tiger mom oh absolutely oh my god yes oh yes yes yes yes but in a really kind of good way like I mean like you know just so ambitious for us wanted us always to have a better life always telling stories about her own very difficult childhood and poverty so always sharing those stories up to the point where you know you kind of get you've heard them a thousand times and you think oh god it's just I cannot listen to this another time right and when you're a child you think like that but when you grow up you realize how much that has an influence on you so I think um I thank my mother actually for that because it's given me a perspective on life and um it's very different

I think to people who brought up in more privileged households okay so your parents um what do they do do they have their own business? Yeah, they were definitely my role model entrepreneurs. People go, where did, you know, my father and mother, my father worked in restaurants for other people until he got to a certain age, could get enough money together to start his own restaurant. And mom always worked at home from when we were small because she just really, really did not

want us to have no money, so she was always doing, I don't know if you, I don't know if you have this, but piecework, you know, sewing, making piecework at home, so you got paid per piece, so if you were doing trims on clothes, all that kind of stuff, she always did that from home, so she always was making money as well, and we would help her so we would be and the kids would be sitting there helping her you know if it was putting teddy bears eyes and teddy bear things we would be doing that with her so because the more she made the more money you know the more she did the more money we made so I guess um they and then my parents started up really great um restaurant chain and that did really well and then they bought a lot of property

as well so they were smart and investing on property and so they retired actually quite early but they worked really hard for quite in the early years and retired in their 50s yeah okay so tell me did you work in the restaurant oh yeah okay how old were you and what were you doing I started around 12 um initially just to pop in on the odd weekend to help my father out um on the waitressing side of it um taking orders for takeaway orders that kind of thing and then then I got a bit older probably about 14 or so um worked pretty much every weekend and the dining part is the waitress um my brothers would and my sisters would come as well they would do their own um I know they would be waitressing or taking orders or washing dishes that kind of stuff so the whole family pretty much um and then in the school breaks you know

semester breaks I would work there reasonably full time through the week. So, yeah. So your family owned this restaurant. It was one restaurant and they scale it into how many chain? Well, they grew, they had about in the end, well, they would grow one, sell, get a bigger one, sell it. And then they got to the point where they actually built their own building and made their own restaurant. And that was a really big one. And they had that one for quite a long time.

So they were really sort of buy grow develop sell you know develop grow sell so they were exiting these little restaurants and making more money you know like getting better and better at it and yeah and getting scaling them up to make them bigger each time so they were doing really well they worked really hard that's. So is that the reason, is that contribute to your success? Yeah, I think I heard Daisy was talking about work ethic in one of your previous podcasts. And I think that absolutely is something

that I think makes a big difference, work ethic. Just that huge drive to work. I think, you know, in hindsight, even my mother has said maybe it was too far that way. And she had little spent, didn't spend as much time with us as she would have liked, because she was always out of the house. So she has that regret. But you know, we don't, I look at it and say well actually it taught us to be incredibly independent and self-sufficient you know we cooked for ourselves we did our laundry we didn't you know we either had you didn't have any kind of you know privileges like you know we all worked in the home and in the restaurant and I think it's that work ethic that drive to do better

and have that financial security is really big for me yep okay so you drop out of college tell me what made you you know what me what was that in your head to start your own company so for someone else beforehand yeah I did work yeah I worked for quite a few people I didn't really know um what my passion was going to be I really didn't I knew I loved dealing with people I knew I was really good with people I really so then I kind of fell into marketing and sales for I worked for a record company I worked for a publishing company I ended up working for a big corporate as well. And then I ended up in, I was kind of in between jobs, wondering what to do.

And then I went to a recruitment company and I was looking at this person on the other side thinking, I really like what you do. I wonder if I could do that job, you know? And so I asked her about it and she was really kind. I still remember she spent an hour with so I asked her about it and she was really kind I still remember she spent an hour with me telling me all about it what I needed to do how I could get into the industry and so then I just started applying for those jobs um and finally got one with a very small company

and um grew we helped grow that company to become quite big and and and then he kind of I don't know he didn't manage it well mismanaged the company and so the company went into liquidation I had to make all this stuff redundant and I was only 20 I think probably in my mid to late 20s making people older than me because I managed them all having to tell them the doors are shut and I'm having to make you redundant sorry you know it was really an awful experience. And then going to work for a really big corporate, which was a company called Adeko,

which I know is in the States as well. So it was a very big global. So I worked for them for a while. And then while I was up to national sales director and I was in Australia and I was talking to my equivalent over there. And I was kind of saying how globally the global leadership didn't really know what we were doing we're having some troubles with company culture our CEO wasn't great at that so and he said you know what he said you do know that the New Zealand

total revenue is the rounding up of the decimal point for the global revenues. I was like, what? He said, you're like the rounding up number of the decimal point. So, you know, pretty much told us we were insignificant and really didn't matter. And why would they pay attention to us? And in that moment, I had this epiphany of, holy crap, why would they care? Yeah, I'm slogging my guts out for a company that doesn't even know I exist. Why would I keep doing that? And so I ended up going out with a woman that I just dearly love. So we co-founded Madison together.

And she was just, she was 10 years older than me. She was, you know, she'd been in business herself. I'd hired her as a consultant and we just got on really well. And we decided, let's just go and do this ourselves. This is just crazy that we're working so hard for people who just don't care. So that's what we did. Yeah. So you started with just two of you.

How did she grow into a hundred staff and became a public company in New Zealand? Like I had to. Oh, I know. Yeah. Well, it was weird because I guess this is the thing about having worked for corporates is that I still thought like I was working for a corporate. And because I've been one of the people that went out and pitched for big pieces of business, I knew how to do it, right?

I knew how to reply to tenders. I knew how to pitch for big volume pieces of work. And so we just did that. I just thought, I'll just keep doing that. I acted like we were a big company because that's how I'd always been, making a big company. I didn't think we could not do it. And so we just started just started pitch we just started pitching for big pieces of and we did a lot of work in the call center space so there were

a lot of big volume recruits uh to set up call centers and we would win them because i was really good at this bit right and so then we go oh we've won it now okay oops we better hire some people to actually hire these, recruit these staff. And so we go, okay, let's go and hire so-and-so and hire so-and-so. And then we just didn't think we could not do it, right? We just said yes and acted like a big company, pitched for these things,

and then figured out how to do it afterwards. And because we were experienced, we knew how to do it. So we just could hire the people and just make it happen. And then we'd go to the next one and the next one. And before we knew it, we knew how to do it. So we just could heart the people and just make it happen. And then we'd go to the next one and the next one. And before we knew it, we were at 30 people. We're like, wow, how did this happen? Okay.

We were opening new offices around the country. And yeah, it just went crazy. Okay. So Marissa, how is it like having a partner? Did it serve you? How is that? Do you have some challenges? Yeah. It's really interesting um a lot of people have asked me that question about how was it that we were so successful and I think it

was because I do think business is lonely um if you're on your own it's hard you know and um and you know you and I are part of entrepreneurs organizations. So I think that a lot of people gravitate towards that organization because maybe they want to find like minded people that they can share their experiences with and share their challenges with. So I think being in a partnership is a bit like that if you have a good partner. Right. And I have had the good fortune of being in partnerships three times now and so um and i think the reason why they've worked is that we have very much um worked out what our values alignment is do we believe in the same values do we believe in the same things and um and do we behave and believe in fairness and honestly um i have we've never had any issues i haven't't, we never, we just had so much fun. We were, and you know, sometimes when I'd be like,

just wound up about something, it was good to have someone else who knew the issue and just say, okay, well, and wasn't so wound up, would just calm me down. And then vice versa, I'd do it for her as well. You know, she'd be like crazy about something and I'd be like, oh yeah, but okay, but think about it like that. And so we just kind of would stabilize each other.

So it was kind of really good, but it was fun growing it and sharing the ups and downs. And, you know, when things were just going really terrible or we'd lost some deal or something bad had happened, we could brainstorm it out together, you know? And yeah, it was really good. But I have heard horrible stories about partnerships. And I think maybe that's where

people don't know each other well enough and they go into business without knowing each other really well and I think that's where I've made good decisions I've known these people well before I got into bed with them so to speak yeah okay so you looking at partner you know, you really make sure you guys are aligned with your culture and values. Because that's one of my fear. And that's the reason why I'm very hesitant to having a partner. Yeah. You're actually one of the few that you just went through and excelled with a partner.

I was like, wow, you just made it like, it sounds so easy. Well, it's not easy, but I think it's like dating, right? Like, you know, before you get married, you go on a lot of dates, you know? So it's kind of the same thing. I think it's just being really clear to see them in every situation. You know, like how do they deal with challenges? How do they deal with problems? How good-humored are they you know you've got to be

with someone that um is either fun it's fun to be with or you enjoy being with and if you're not um if you're not having fun with them or if you don't share if one's too intense and is just you know it takes the sucks the joy out of life well you've got to know that before you get in and i think um hanging out with someone and non-work situations just seeing what they're like outside of work all that kind of stuff matters and I think that's where because my business partner and I had worked together I had really seen her in high stress situations she'd seen me in high stress situations and then we'd start mix social mingle socially so it's the same thing it's just almost going through a long like interview you know yeah okay so you um

you can't co-founded um co-founded the medicine group is when did you uh you saw that too well what happened was we went through the gfc right so the gfc was like we had a hundred staff we were like really pumping you know pretty much like what's just happened now everything was going really great guns right everything was just booming and then the gfc happened and it was a financial collapse infrastructure collapse globally so um what happened was we we were in australia at the time when it hit like when the lehman brothers thing hit and we were in australia on a a weekend away incentive trip provided to us by our online job board and um so we were with all these other

recruitment leaders as well because we were the top one of the top 20 in australia new zealand right so we were there and it was actually the Packer estate and he, you know, the super, super wealthy, like he's like worth billions, right? And we were on their estate and he was meant to join us and then the world went to hell at the handbasket overnight. And I think he wiped off something like a billion dollars off his personal wealth, right?

Just disappeared overnight. So he didn't want to join us for drinks after that he was a little bit depressed which you can kind of understand but all these recruitment leaders were sitting there saying um okay uh this is going to be really bad and we were like oh no we'll be fine you know and we were kind of listening but not sure we get back to New Zealand we're like what do we do now anyway um after gfc the staff kind of we kind of shrunk to about half our size but we didn't we didn't lose any money as such we in fact because we got leaner and much more efficient the following year was one of our most profitable years it was crazy it was just crazy so I think what it was the showed us was that you know when

you have year on year on year of growth things get a bit slack things get a bit um fat you know we're very free with our incentives and we're paying people lots of money and we're you know having great trips and all this kind of thing and we're doing things we probably wouldn't really necessarily need to do and then when things got tight, it was like, wow, we didn't actually need any of that stuff, you know. So then we started looking for a CEO because we decided we, well, we'd been looking for a little while, thinking about what our next steps were because we were back in growth mode

literally a year after the GFC. So as we appointed him, he wrote a little article about what maybe our strategy would be for the business. And there was a little bit of bait put out there about whether or not we were going to be interested in exiting one day. And so we got approached by this big public company that said, oh, we saw that you were appointed this CEO and you're looking at what your plans might be. We're interested in talking to you so then they came to us with different various proposals which we kept saying no to because we were doing really well and we didn't need to sell and i think that's the best space to be in because you're really being courted and you really don't need to sell so the the

offer just got bigger and bigger and bigger until it got to the point where we're like okay now it's getting really ridiculous now we just have to kind of go, um, really, we probably want to start thinking about those now seriously. And so, um, we put up a number there and then they finally met the number and then that was the deal done. It was, um, it was insane. That's, that's amazing. So what's your typical day like now? Yeah, this is the funny thing.

Post-sale, it was really interesting trying to find structure in my life. When you've got a business, you're really driven by the activity of the business, right? You've got to get up, you've got to get there. I found it really hard, actually, because suddenly I was just almost, you just almost kind of drift, right? And then you're out there, kind of, you don't want to be aimless. So you throw yourself into things. So that next two years, I was just saying yes to everything

because I felt like I needed really lots of activity to fill this void. And I made some mistakes, you know. I really did some things I shouldn't have done. And because I was just saying yes to things and I really wasn't being very intentional about it, what I just saying yes to things and I really wasn't being very intentional about it what I was saying yes to even though people were advising me they told you they're not to do anything for a year and just to sit on my hands well that was just really hard advice to take because I was so not used to that so I was doing things and then so now

a few years on I really am much more careful about what I say yes to now. So I get up, it's pretty much try and exercise, get up at a reasonable time, exercise, you know, then deal with sort of core. I look at my bank details, make sure I pay bills, whatever, and then get into the, what is the most important thing to get done today? The one thing, right? The one thing. There's a book called The One Thing, right? So what is the one thing?

So then I have to really try and focus because if I don't do that, then it's really amazing how the day can just get away on you, doing things that really are not important. So that's really important for me to just get on that. And that, yeah, it's so hard. Like, I feel like we have so much time now. Like, like you said, like, what am I going to do?

I don't want to waste this time. Like, you can't just relax on that doing because we're used to like pounding sand like every day. Right. But I kind of like it this though because we have a little bit of break and just do whatever we want to do yeah and I think we can be too hard on ourselves when we're working I think I was really always feeling like I had to be incredibly productive all the time and all this kind of thing and really busy and and you know that work ethic thing was always kicking in you know so I

never want to go back to doing that I never want to do nothing but never want to go back to that thing where actually there isn't that balance you know um and I think what I found for myself was when I was in the height of the activity of growing the business um I don't think health wise I was that great you know I was quite stressed and I'm you know and I always felt like I was um very heavy you know felt very heavy all the time and so I think now uh understanding I think maybe this is a great recent opportunity for people to say okay when I go back into the world again when the world comes back to rights do I want my life to be the way it was before and um so I've had this opportunity to do that over the last few years right but it's

almost like the world has given everyone the chance to do that over the next few weeks you know to really go what actually what's really important you know I'm loving cooking every night I'm loving that I used to do that a lot before when I was younger. And then we, you know, got busier. And then I was, we were going out a lot to dinner, we were getting a lot of take, you know, delivery food. Now I'm like, actually, I've just rediscovered this joy of cooking again, you know. And so one of the things that I think when I come out of this is that I probably will start cooking more often, you know, than I had been, you know, so little things like that. Yeah. So Marisa, what was one of your best motivation in life? It used to be financial security. I was really,

really driven by having, always having enough money in the bank you know and I still suffer from that a little bit every now and then so I'm very careful to be um not uh too worried about um and so therefore sometimes I can be a bit risk averse you know I don't want to invest in a property or I don't want to do this because oh it might be too much money and this kind of thing um and so oh look I'm very comfortably off because of the exit and so i don't really have to work again but i have to be careful with i feel sometimes there's this careful thing also then balanced by this um drive to uh help grow other businesses or invest which is why i have this angel investment portfolio so i invest in angels and startups to help other businesses and then looking

at this new business I'm looking at a growth to to actually leverage what I have and grow greater opportunity but then this one the skinky one isn't actually about making more money because I'm probably going to spend a lot of money growing it, but it's more about doing something else that's different, you know, to what I've done before. Yeah. So now my motivation is learning. Now my motivation is, what can I learn? How can I grow?

What can I do that really challenges me now? You know, whereas before it was about financial security and about having enough money in the bank. Now I've got that. Now it's like, okay, what can I do? That will really be so different. I've never done it before that I could just get these amazing learnings. Right. Um, you've had all the successes and, um,

I'm so impressed how you just exit and sell and exit and create again. I want to have that courage to do it myself. What's your greatest failure so far? Greatest failure. Probably, as I said, when I first came out of the business, I was just so worried about not keeping in touch with what was relevant in the world. You know, when you're in the business world, you feel very relevant and you feel quite needed in your business, right? So what I did was I got approached by quite a few organizations

who knew that I had this pot of money, right? So they know, right? And they go, I wonder if we could get them to invest in my business. I got approached by a few I invested in a business that I knew nothing about um and I was just a shareholder and an investor ended up they asked me to be on the board and chair and I did all of that which was that was fine but what I realized was um that the business I'd invested in, the person was not really able to execute on the plan, right? So in the end, the business just failed. Like it just was completely, I mean, the idea is still good. The concept is great, but the execution just could not be delivered

because the people that I had thought could do it, the founders couldn't do it. So that was a really big failure of capital lost, energy and time invested. And I really learned from that that again, and it goes back to that thing I said before, you know, really understanding these people better than I did in a, youminute pitch meeting and then maybe one coffee meeting with them and then going, yeah, and then putting all this money in. It was just crazy. So really understanding, again, about the people. And I completely misread that one. And therefore, subsequently, as they lost money, time time effort um i introduced other people to

the investment because at that stage really believed in it and they lost money so i felt really bad about that you know it was just it was just um yeah it was it was that was a really big lesson for me in what space was that uh what business well they were in the architectural paints and coatings, and so it was a new way of creating pigment into paint. So it was actually a dry color rather than a liquid tint, which doesn't deliver great coverage. I mean, these were beautiful natural materials as well, so they were very eco-friendly good for households with sensitivities so the concept was really great right the story was really great but as I say just the execution didn't work out and I what did I know about architectural coatings and paint nothing

so I don't even know I was there really What made you decide to invest in that? The story was so good And the founder was convincing Like they were a couple right And she was just so convincing and passionate And really bright right Really smart So it had nothing to do with whether or not

They were the idea or that But in the end There was just a lot of Disconnect between the narrative we were being given and then actually what was actually happening yeah yeah yeah and how long was that you were involved in that before it disappeared oh about two years two years two years yeah like we really tried to make it work trust me really tried to make it work appointed other people in there and a whole lot of other stuff just did not we just could not make that work

yeah okay so what made you decide like okay I'm done with it what was that well in the end we just had no nobody had any more confidence in putting any more money and I certainly didn't um and so at that point the company just ran out of money so it was pretty easy decision to just say and then somebody came along and said well I'll give you you know a dollar one and five you know and so bought it for 20 basically so we were all diluted and then um I don't it's still struggling yep I um I love how you're fully move on to that one. It sounds like you put a lot of time and money and effort into making it happen.

Yeah. Yeah. So it was a big lesson, a big lesson. What are you going to be looking after for your next investment now? I know you, you really, what did you learn from it i know you mentioned that you really need to get to know the founder and so i really um now i i'm a lot more so people say when you're looking at angel investing they say oh if you've got a b great idea but you've got a great execution team um that's the best you know you're better to do that than have a great idea and a've got an a grade execution team um that's the best you know you're better

to do that than have a great idea and a b grade execution team right b grade founders or whatever i'm like you know what you've got to have an a and an a there's no b or a there's a and a so you've got to have a really good idea and you have got to have a really great execution team like the founders have just got to be a great totally an a team so um i try and meet them i look at their idea i think you know is it an iteration of something that already exists it's accepted rather than a groundbreaking new thing that we no one's ever done before so um that's kind of the litmus test, you know, and do I believe that they can do it? And so to be fair, out of all my other investments,

they are all tracking really well. So I've had one good exit. Yeah, one good exit where I, you know, almost quadrupled my money, original seed investment a bit more than that actually and then a couple of others on on their way to really good exits probably another one that's a couple of that the startups that are now cash flow positive so although I've had one really big failure all the others are actually looking pretty good actually so I feel a bit better about it like than that than I do about the others so yeah so um is you and Simon do business together or he he's doing his own thing

do you guys do his own thing um he so he looks after a property we have some properties residential property and we are also looking at commercial property. So just prior to all this happening, actually, I was looking to buy commercial industrial property in New Zealand, and I'd gone and looked at a few things, and then the world just turned like this, right? It went upside down, and now it's like, oh, I'm so glad I didn't back then, because I really, I'd put in an offer on one thing and that I got outbid by somebody else. It was the circumstances of things I didn't get it. And now I'm just like so kind of almost grateful that that didn't happen because who knows what would have been,

whether those tenants could have paid that rent or what, you know. So, yeah, so between us, we kind of look after, you know, we're kind of like, we're semi-retired, we kind of work from home, he does his thing, we hang out, walk the dog, you know, moan about our teenage daughter, you know, does she ever leave her room or she come down and see us today? But yeah, no, we've been together a long, long time. So we're like a pair of comfortable old shoes together, you know? So what scares you the most about this current situation? Yeah, I've been listening to a lot of podcasts and I listened to Ray Dalio and I was listening to Christiana, I can't remember her last name, the chair of IMF. And I think this is something, it's not the GFC. I think a lot of people are trying to relate this back to the GFC.

I think that what's starting to come through is that this is something we've not seen in our lifetimes and that the flow-on effects are going to be big. So in New Zealand, although we are an island, we're an island nation, we're tiny, we've only got 5 million people here. And we think we're handling all this well on a health front, and we are. But on the economic front, I'm really worried for our country. So we produce far more than we can consume. So we have to export just about everything to make any money, right? Yeah. And when you think, and luckily luckily a lot of it is primary

produce so people will want food right so hopefully that'll pull us keep us through but consumer goods you know hospitality retail that's just and i think um supply chains are going to be disrupted you know uh i just think that it's going to be an interesting next three years I don't think this is a one-year thing I don't think by the end of the year we're going to be right we're just not if you look at unemployment and what's going to happen in the US they're talking 30 percent 20 to 30 percent I think we'll get into at least 10 to 15 percent at maybe 20 in New Zealand so you think about unemployment and what the social what it does to the social fabric so I guess from a business point of view it's preserving cash and just survival now

and coming out the other end and having something unique and or different or all the things that mattered before about your business, which were your values, your relationships with your customers. Do people love your story? Were you authentic? All of that is going to matter even more coming out the other side.

If you didn't have that, if you were just a transactional business, you really are going to have a problem. Yeah. From a social side society i think um if if governments are not supporting people who were already vulnerable going in then there is going to be some real issues to deal with on the other side and as much as um social unrest you know civil unrest do we really want that? You know, no. So people are already talking about the universal basic income.

I don't know if that's the answer, but definitely I think there'll be a lot more social support needed. And so therefore we're looking at countries being indebted for a long time. So, yeah, I think this has got the feeling of, people talk about whether it's a V-shaped recovery or a U-shaped recovery or an L-shaped recovery. I think it's going to be a really long U like that. I think we're going to be like this. It's not going to be like that. It's going to be like, and I don't think it'll be an L hour we will get back there because there's so much stimulus being provided but i do think it's going to be a very long thought of you yeah that's yeah i i think you got about right now like i think it would be a three-year effect

i mean it's kind of scary i'm in hospitality industry and kind of like oh my god is this gonna be it's gonna take a long before people will be comfortable into traveling we were just with the rise of instagram everyone wants to be there in and out and now we're into this it's scary so yeah i guess in every country will probably be a little bit different right like if your country was um managed it really well on a health perspective and you've got really good tech and you can bring people in to that internationally into your borders and you're confident that you can um track and trace them and that they're going to be okay if they that you're letting people in then maybe that's okay but i think that's a year away at

least for most countries right so maybe in this, we go back to traveling to some countries that we know have eliminated or have it under control. We might think, oh, yeah, you know, so it's going to be interesting. It's going to be interesting. We don't know. So, Marissa, what's something you'd even do if you never made any money? What would I do if I'd never made any money? What was something that you would do

even if you never made any money? Oh, this is going to sound really crazy. Okay, so I have this thing about that I think there is this group of women out there because I'm older, right? I'm getting into that older age group. And I've always loved makeup and beauty and looking after my skin,

knowing how to apply it and all that kind of stuff. But there's this whole group of women that never grew up with it, right? And they're getting to a sort of demographic now that is like really still care, but they don't know even where to start and they're probably in their 40s and 50s they're not comfortable going to the local counter where there's that 20 year old who's gonna you know so i really have this idea and i i kind of took mention to a couple of friends of mine like yeah you should do about doing makeup for older women

right like how do you as an old woman not want to look like those painted up you know 20 something year olds with all the you know crikey morphe palettes and all that kind of thing you know but you still want to look good but naturally good like you still want so I feel like there's this kind of space that I'd love if I could had the talent to do this kind of video tutorials and say, you know what I mean? You know, that used to be my job, actually. I was doing makeup for Estee Lauder company and we would go to the retirement community, this rich community in Florida. And I remember when I first did the makeup,

I didn't really know how to do it because when it's mature skin, your brow is not the same as a young person. You have to pull it and then you blend it, right? And I feel bad for the first person that did the makeup. It's funny that they say that. I was shaking. It's like, God, please help me how to really do this brow or eyeliner. But I feel bad. But I think she just went home. She just went home. But I was embarrassed. My first makeup, I was shaking. And that's hard because you're so young, you know, then, and you're like, oh, and you think it's going to be easy. But man, you know, I like, yeah.

You need a lot of talent. Yeah, because by the time the skin dropped, the brow doesn't match. So you really have to pull it and make it even. And you can't pull it too much because when you pull it and then you let it go and then it's like oh no I pulled it up too much and now it's so yeah it's just so I think there's this whole group of women that really who never because you know I'm not talking about the woman that grew up with makeup because they're kind of more comfortable with it and they're probably starting to learn new techniques to just keep up

or wearing less is more or whatever it is right but there's this whole group of women I know that never wore makeup you know never did and just don't even know where to start and now because as we get older you know your hair grays out your skin changes and you start to and you lack a little more color in your face or contrast. And now they're going, oh, I do now want to wear a bit more, whatever, but I don't even know where to start now because I never wore it before and I didn't need to, but now I need to. And it's like, oh no. So that would be fun. That'd be fun. I could just do it for fun, you know?

That's really sounds like fun. Is that the reason why you want to do something in the skincare industry? Yeah. Yeah. Well, we know okay like you i went so one of my first after-school jobs my mother got me was in the local pharmacy and it was just one hour a day after school and i'd get one dollar an hour i made five dollars a week okay this is how long it was but in the school holidays they would have me come in full time and i would help clean you know wipe down the shelves and then I could serve customers and I loved makeup loved makeup and I remember these lovely older women coming in and because I didn't really know how old I was I think I was maybe 13 or something and they would be asking me about makeup and I'd be like yeah yeah so I'd be matching them with foundation and doing all this stuff I don't

know what I did I don't know if they walked out it's good or not good I don't know but I loved I loved it and I guess that's always been a love of mine since then because I just love that transformative power of it you know um and I do believe that when people look good they can feel good you know it's almost that external expression of your internal self you know i feel really great i don't know if i look like how i feel you know and if you can get them and that's why i love it that's why i love it that's amazing okay marisa what have been the most influential experiences in your life yeah um so uh i guess there are a few one is um my sister died i had a sister my one of my sisters uh was killed in a car accident um which had a very profound effect on our family, and we're a very

close family, and so I guess in that sense, pretty much about not wasting time, you know, just being really appreciative of my family and each other, that was really important for me. When I was eight, oh no, probably my early 20s, I don't know if you have it in the US I think you do in fact it came from the US you know landmark they had those forum things you know yeah landmark yeah want me to join yeah so anyway when I was in my early 20s I had this free weekend workshop right and I got kind of somebody said, you should do it, I think, I think it was free, actually, you paid, you paid for this weekend, and I went, and, and I was at that stage, not connected to my family, we were, I was cast out, you know,

we were not talking, and I had a lot of anger towards my parents, and, and, and really, the, one of the transformative things about that weekend was how much, and you know, Tony Robbins talks about it a little bit, I'm not a fan as such, but he talks about how you can't blame anybody for your life. There's no one that takes responsibility except for yourself, right? Because I was wanting to to let go of all that and just realize that actually my parents just were doing a really great job with the best resources they had available to them and you know thinking about their childhoods pretty much they were amazing parents considering what they'd gone through so just that was really transformative about taking this responsibility for my own decisions and being accountable for my own actions. So that was really important.

And probably those two things, really. Yeah. Well, that's amazing. You, you know, you figure it out at an early age, like at 20. That's a blessing. It really was and I I don't I come back to that all the time because I don't think many some people take a long time to get there I hadn't realized actually um how that was something that I just understood and was just a part of me from then on. But a lot of people still carry this kind of baggage of, yeah, right, of who they could look externally to,

to why their life hasn't turned out the way they'd hoped, you know. And, yeah, but I think entrepreneurs, we typically do a little more self-examination maybe because we've had values and you know we want to grow typically I think entrepreneurs are very growth-oriented women I think as well but I do know I do know women who have been disappointed in life you know that I call them the disappointed women you you know, or disappointed people, there's this group of people that have been disappointed, and have been let down by life, you know, and you can see them, and it's like, no, no, life didn't let you down, you, that was the life you created, you know, or chose, or whatever, and I mean, like, bad things happen to people, it's not

like I'm not saying external things don't happen happen it's just understanding how to respond to those things right yeah yeah yeah no totally so what do you see as your place or purpose in life yeah we went through this exercise in eo and uh when i went to asia bridge forum and they talked about having like a little um two action words like two words like an action word or verb and then a thing and i was like what is it what is it some of my linkedin profile call it create creating success you know because and i'm not sure that's exactly right i'm not sure that they're exactly the right words but what i mean by that is that whoever I help or whatever I do, I want it to achieve its outcome. Like, what is the outcome we're trying to achieve? What is it we're trying to do?

Or what is a good solution? You know, and helping people get there or understanding what that is for myself or my family or whatever is really, and so I do a lot of connecting of different people together because I want, I feel like if I know lots of people, if I know someone that could help this person, why not connect them? And so it's really about trying to bring all the things together that give people the most opportunity for success or the outcomes that they're looking for. That's kind of my purpose. I love doing that and love seeing that happen. Yep. that give people the most opportunity for success or the outcomes that they're looking for that's kind of my purpose I love doing that and love seeing that happen yep wow that's amazing Marissa

what would be your what would be your advice to anyone who's planning to start their own business or still in the business but really wanted to scale, what would be your advice? So, yeah, I always talk about this thing about you can be boutique or you could be large, but in the middle is what I call no man's land, right? So you really have to understand that the journey to getting large, right? And, or stay boutique, Like what is one of the two different scenarios? So boutique, typically you're highly profitable, you know, typically you're quite hands-on and operational in the business and you are a key person in the operation.

To scale, you need a lot of cash. You need to know you've got the investment to get you to big. And big is good because you are less operational. You probably can actually have less stress if you have the right leadership team around you, right? So it is worth doing it if you know you can get there and you have a plan to get there and you know how much money you need

to get there so you've either got the investment behind you or you've got the borrowings that you can borrow or whatever I think in this time with what's happening right now there are opportunities and if you have got a good source of cash you have a good thing then potentially now is actually a good time to do it if you because the runway might be quicker if you've got a good offering um because there's competitors you know people falling over that kind of stuff um cheap acquisitions so i would say having knowing that it's a what the journey looks like to get to big and knowing that you've got enough capital behind you um and that you've got good advisors around you to help you get there as well good support because it's tough um so yeah scaling and i think um what was the other side part of the question i can't

remember now what would you like for anyone like yeah the scaling and what would be like for a startup, what would, what advice would you give them? A startup. Yeah. Um, depending on the startup, like, you know, a services business is so different to starting up a product business as I've learned. So, you know, with a services business, it's about people having enough people paying people and your two biggest costs typically are your staff and your two biggest costs typically are your staff and your rent right um which is with most businesses so then it's like uh with services business you can usually scale up quite quickly because you just hire more people

right and you train them and they can start billing right whereas with a um production a marketing led consuming product business it's marketing cost, right? So you're really having to invest in lots of marketing and knowing how to brand build, and that's a really different exercise. So I think for startups, it's really what type of startup you are, but really, again, having requirements knowing what the um what is the what is the trigger point that tells you that this business is a go or no go right what will tell you is it when your first customer pays for your service that you that it validates that someone wants it and is prepared to pay for it or is it when you

have a thousand products sold like what is the go no-go signal that this business is viable i think because some people keep flogging a dead horse right you've said i know people who you know they keep putting more and more money into something and you just know it's not going to work yeah yeah i tell people like give it two years if you're not seeing any growth move on and do something else yeah other people are into it even though we all know it's not working but they just don't want to give up yeah and you know that phrase called sunk cost you know where you've sunk so much into it that you just keep thinking if I just put a bit more in or a bit more in it'll be right it'll be successful and no just it's a sunk

cost walk away before you put good money after bad a lot of great wisdom there um how do you want to be remembered? Oh, yeah. I think I would like to be remembered as that. I brought joy or happiness and I was a positive person. You know, I don't think I'm going to do anything. You know how there's lots of people doing lots of meaningful things right um I I I guess my I would like that I have somehow helped people on their journey of entrepreneurship and that um I was generous with my time and resources and um and there I was you know I was present for people and engaged with people and particularly with my family like particularly with my daughter and that you know she feels that she can she's well supported and

that she is well loved you know and and I guess that's that's that's it well well Marissa thank you so much for your time. I enjoyed talking to you. This is, you know, this gives me more time to get to know you. I know the last time we were chatting, that was short, like it was a dinner in Portugal. I enjoyed that time. And so I appreciate you spending this time and getting in the show. Well, I had so much fun talking to somebody outside my isolation bubble.

So it was great for me too. So Marisa, where can they find you? Your website, your handle? So we have a website, but we haven't launched it yet. So, which is arneaskincare.com. We also have a Facebook page but um probably the easiest um thing is just to find me under marissa my dog marissa fong um on facebook and um instagram is marissa underscore b underscore fong so yeah all right thank you so much and uh stay safe

you too have a good day bye