Founder's Story - Everyone Said It Was Too Niche. Then Julia Louis-Dreyfus Signed On | Ep. 433 with Stephanie Wittels Wachs CEO & Co-Founder of Lemonada Media

Episode Date: August 17, 2026

Daniel opens by asking Stephanie about a statement she recently made: she would not have this company if her brother were still alive. Stephanie explains that Lemonada did not begin as a founder story about chasing money or becoming a media mogul. It began with the death of her younger brother, Harris Wittels, a beloved comedy writer and producer who worked on shows including Parks and Recreation and Master of None. His death from a heroin overdose devastated Stephanie and eventually led her to write through her grief. That writing became a book. Her book tour led to a podcast appearance. A producer who had also lost her brother reached out with the idea of making a podcast about the opioid crisis. At first, Stephanie said no. But after becoming a mother again and continuing to see stories about the opioid epidemic, she realized there was a need for something that could serve families who did not know what to do when addiction entered their lives. That show became Last Day, and that show became the seed of Lemonada Media. From there, Stephanie and Daniel discuss how Lemonada grew from one deeply personal podcast into a broader media company focused on the hard things people privately worry about at night. The company’s mission, “make life suck less,” became the anchor for shows about grief, caregiving, wisdom, addiction, mental health, comedy, and survival. Stephanie also shares what it was like to attract major talent, build through fear, shift into video, go through an acquisition, and continue carrying her brother’s presence into everything she does. Key Discussion Points Stephanie says Lemonada would not exist if her brother Harris were still alive, because his death was the event that changed the course of her life and eventually connected her with co founder Jessica. She describes Harris as her little brother, best friend, only sibling, and a brilliant comedy writer who achieved major success at a young age before dying at 30 from a heroin overdose. Stephanie explains that after Harris died, she was destroyed by grief and turned to writing because that was the only tool she knew how to use. An essay she wrote led to a literary agent, which led to her memoir, and then a podcast appearance that connected her with a producer who had lost her brother in a nearly identical way. At first, Stephanie did not want to make a podcast about opioids because she felt the crisis had already destroyed her family and killed her brother. While on maternity leave, she kept seeing stories about the opioid crisis and realized families needed practical help, not just outrage about the people and institutions behind the epidemic. The original purpose of Last Day was to be a resource for families trying to understand what to do when someone they love is struggling with opioid use disorder. Stephanie says the company came together because she and Jessica realized the world is hard in many ways, not just because of addiction, and there was room to build content around those private struggles. Lemonada’s brand statement, “make life suck less,” came from the idea of creating shows that help people get through difficult realities rather than pretending everything is joyful or easy. Stephanie says the transition from podcast to company felt natural because their mission was clear: make life suck less through podcasts, books, documentaries, events, and experiences. She believes Lemonada attracted major talent because it is a values based company with a heart, soul, and clear mission, not just a podcast network trying to build volume. Stephanie says Lemonada is highly selective about the shows it brings under its umbrella, which helps talent feel like they are joining a meaningful world rather than just another network. She describes the fear of building a company as constant, from making payroll to launching shows, landing talent, charting, sunsetting shows, shifting strategy, and surviving in a crowded podcast market. Stephanie compares making content to catching lightning in a bottle because unlike a simple product, it is hard to know in advance whether a show will work. She says the media industry changes so rapidly that Lemonada has had to pivot every 12 to 18 months, including a major shift from audio first podcasting to video first production. Stephanie explains that every show Lemonada is launching this fall is video first, which has forced the company to rethink internal systems, processes, expertise, and production workflows. When discussing the PodX acquisition, Stephanie says she and Jessica were not sad about “giving away” what they built. Instead, they were excited to become part of something bigger and gain global support. She says PodX’s global footprint made the acquisition exciting because Lemonada could now connect with companies and audiences in places like the U.K., the Nordics, France, Mexico, Argentina, and beyond. Stephanie explains that her theater background made the acquisition feel natural because she likes building things with teams and believes in the idea of “the more the merrier.” She describes “make life suck less” as intentionally different from chasing happiness or joy. Lemonada’s baseline is grief, loss, and a broken world, so the goal is helping people get through the day in small and large ways. Stephanie says Harris remains everywhere in her life, from her office to her home to her dreams, and that her children know about him and his presence remains deeply alive in her family. She talks about addiction through the lens of trauma, explaining that people use drugs to feel better, not worse, and that understanding the wound underneath addiction is essential. Stephanie says her mission is to help people understand addiction, bust myths, and give families the roadmap she wished she had when Harris was struggling. She explains that if Harris were sitting across from her, he would probably be modest and uncomfortable with the attention, but she hopes he would be proud that his death inspired change and helped others. Takeaways Lemonada Media was born from grief, but it grew because Stephanie and Jessica turned personal loss into a mission that could help other people feel less alone. A clear mission can be a stronger foundation than a traditional business plan, especially when the company is built around trust, meaning, and emotional connection. Stephanie’s story shows that the worst thing that happens to you can remove a different kind of fear, making entrepreneurship feel less scary by comparison. Values based companies attract values aligned talent, both behind the mic and inside the organization. The podcast industry is no longer only audio. Stephanie says Lemonada has had to evolve into a video first company because the way people consume shows has changed. Understanding addiction requires compassion, education, and a shift away from shame toward recognizing the pain and trauma underneath the behavior. Closing Thoughts Stephanie Wittels Wachs’s Founder’s Story episode is a powerful reminder that not every company starts with ambition. Some start with grief, survival, and the need to make sense of something that should never have happened. Lemonada Media began because Stephanie and Jessica knew what it felt like to lose a brother and not have a roadmap. Today, the company has become a home for shows that help people face life’s hardest moments with honesty, humor, and humanity. This is a founder story about loss, but also about purpose, love, and building something that makes life suck a little less. Today's Sponsors: Start with Upwork, the one-stop platform to find, hire, and pay expert freelancers across marketing, editing, branding, development, operations, and more. Visit https://www.Upwork.com today to post your job for free and get matched with top talent ready to help your business grow. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

You have to constantly pivot. If you don't like doing that, I don't recommend running a company. Be an employee. Stephanie Whittles Wax is the CEO of Lemonada Media. Her brother Harris wrote for Parks and Rec and won an Emmy for Master of None. After his death, she wrote a best-selling memoir. Then she built the network behind Apple's best podcast of the year with Julia Louise Dreyfus. This is a founder's story you have never heard.

He was my little brother, my best friend, and he died at 30 years old of a heroin overdose. Jess and I would never have found each other if our brothers were still here. I would never be running this company. If your brother was sitting across from you right now, what do you think he would say about the person that you've had to become because of his death? I think he would... You recently said, I would not have this company if my brother... brother, we're still alive. Can you explain that statement? Yeah, it's a wild statement, right? I'm guessing no other founder has probably had that statement on your show. Never heard that statement before.

Yeah. Well, I guess let me rewind to tell you the origin of that, of that quote. You know, a lot of founders start companies to make money. I don't know. Be moguls. That wasn't us. So my story is very different. My brother Harris Whittles was a comedy writer and comedian and very beloved. Honestly, just a boy wonder. He got his first writing job at 22 with Sarah Silverman on her show and, you know, just catapulted and had the most incredible career. He was a co-execative producer of Parks and Rec when he died. If you've ever seen the show, he played Harris.

the animal control guy. We were so proud of him. But he was amazing. And he wrote on Master of None and ended up winning an Emmy for that show. I mean, he was he was the best. But beyond his resume and his professional accolades, he was my brother. He was my little brother, my best friend. We were very close. He was my only sibling. And he died at 30 years old of a heroin overdose. And when people hear about a guy who was so successful and so brilliant and charming and funny and incredible incredibly accomplished you think that person struggled with addiction yes we were on that roller coaster as a family for a couple years before he died but when he died I was absolutely destroyed in the way that grief destroys a person and ended up writing a book in the aftermath because my background is as a theater director and writer. And I don't come from the media space. Actually, I own a podcast company,

but I don't come from the audio world. I come from the art world. And so I did the only thing I knew how to do at the time, which was to write through that grief. And I published an essay and it got the attention of an agent, a literary agent. And she was like, do you want to write a book? And I'm like, lady, I can't put on pants.

I'm like so sad. I mean, I'm going to keep writing if you want to publish whatever comes out. Great. You know, and she's like, that sounds great. And we ended up selling the book. And when I was touring it a couple years later, a woman heard me on a podcast called Terrible Thanks for Asking and she had lost her brother the same way and was a producer for Crooked Media at the time and reached out and was like, hey, do you want to do a podcast about opioids? and I was like, no.

I'm done talking about opioids. They destroyed our family, ruined my life, killed my brother. You seem great. Let's keep in touch. I was going to have a baby in a week, like literally when we talked. It was a wild time. This was in 2018. And I went on Matt leave and was nursing a lot and scrolling my phone like you do

and kept seeing all these articles about opioids and, you know, the opioid crisis and how it's killing more people than car accidents. And I just felt like, I don't know, we should make this. Because as a family member, when you're going through something like that, you have no idea what to do. You are sort of like, I say it like you're, you have balls coming at you, like curve balls, right? And you're batting them away and you have no idea what the rules of the game are. You have no idea. And you want to help but don't know where to begin. So our show was really intended to be a resource for families, right?

Like, yes, the Sacklers are terrible. They've ruined us. And they're terrible, awful. That doesn't help me if my loved one is struggling with an opioid use disorder. Like, what do I do? So we decided to make this show together, and it was called Last Day. And this was six months before COVID. So we realized really quickly that the world is hard in a lot of

ways, not just drugs, and how could we create content and community about all of those hard things? We described it as the stuff that when you lay your head down in the pillow at night, you're stressing about sort of by yourself. Like, let's make that kind of content that addresses that. And that became Lemonada. Our brand statement is make life suck less. Seven years later, we have shows with Julia Louis Dreyfus and Megan the Duchess of Sussex and, you know, all sorts of people who have nothing to do with opioids or addiction, but really resonate with our brand statement. So, you know, Jess and I would never have found each other if our brothers were still here. I would never be running this company. This would not be my path. So that's why I said

that because it's completely and utterly true. Two strangers, two. Two strangers. Two brothers, nearly identical deaths, brought you two together. What was the transition for you when you realized this is going to be a company? This isn't just a podcast. Yeah, I mean, it's so interesting because when the worst thing happens to you and you survive that, everything else seems like child's play. So the fear and anxiety, what are we going to do if the company doesn't work. What are we going to do if this isn't something that resonates with people? We didn't care, right? What's the worst thing that can happen? The podcast doesn't do well. This company doesn't do well. You know, we were sort of fearless, which is something I typically never was. I was very afraid. I had tons of anxiety. But when you survive this

terrible thing, it just felt like, yeah, let's do this. The company came about because we started pitching out the podcast and everyone kept telling us, oh, this is too niche. Oh, it's a great concept, but like really niche. And we thought, do you know how many people this affects? You know, this is a huge epidemic, right? The opioid crisis. People may not be talking about it at dinner parties or around the water cooler, but it doesn't mean it's not impacting people. And so our thought was there's so many things like that, right? We have a real mission for this for this and we have a real something to offer somebody right? When you think about

starting a company, it's like, is this going to really offer you something that you need? And we believed so strongly that we did. At the time, it was like, there was comedy stuff. It was like, what did Trump eat for breakfast? Like, everything was politics or comedy. There wasn't really anything focused on the hard things in life through a entertaining and comedic lens, which is always how we made our shows. Even when we're talking about the hardest things ever,

we do it in a way that is like, we say like the broccoli and the brownies, right? Like we're always making jokes. We're always making people laugh. But we're talking about the things that really impact people. And so the transition was actually quite easy because it wasn't like we were setting out to be media moguls. We weren't like,

we're going to make the biggest podcast company ever. Our mission was like make life suck less for people. Great. How are we going to do that through podcasts? And then through books and then through documentaries and then through events and experiences. Like if you start with your why, the how becomes actually quite easy in a way. I think for us, for us, like if we hadn't had that big why, the company never

would have made sense. But because we did, everything else. felt like, yeah, let's do it. Easy. When life gives you lemons, you get lemonata. Make lemonade. Exactly. Do you have a tune? Do we have a tune?

I think when life gives lemons, you get lemonada. That's good. Think on that one. I'm not a good singer. I'm going to copyright that one. Copyright it. A good one. Please.

I will not take it. I promise. You did something that most entrepreneurs would love to do, and that is to attract a well-known household name people to be a part of the company, which is not easy. And I know a lot of podcast networks and many of them, they haven't even reached that level. They've been in the game for a long time. What do you think that you all did that enabled you to attract top talent? Again, I think it's that it's that mission orientation. You know, people want to be a part of something that has meaning and purpose. So us being like, we're just a podcast network.

is one thing, but a podcast network with a heart and a soul and, you know, a real sort of alignment with what their values are, right? When you're a values-based company, I think you attract people who have similar values. And that's true of our talent behind the mic. So all of our team and our staff and the kinds of people we attract to work at Lemonada and the talent that we attract. They're people who also want to make the world better. There are people who also want to make the world better. They're people who want to protect their own brand. And when they come to Lemonada, they know this is not a volume play here. We are not like other networks that that take on a million podcasts. We're incredibly selective about what we take on. And every show really makes sense under the

Lemonada umbrella. So people who come here, they want to be part of that of that world, essentially. Now I'm Now a part of your world. Now I'm the singer, Dan. Oh, but you have a legit voice. Well, listen. I don't want to brag, but I mean, I can sing a tune. I can sing a tune. Theater.

I tried, by the way, I went to theater camp, and then I tried out for theater, and I was never accepted into any plays. I don't think I was even really good at it, to be honest with you. But it seemed, you know. Now you host a podcast, though, so everyone else can just get right out of town. I'm acting right now. There you go.

You're acting like a podcast host. I think about wanting to get sunglasses and I want to become like a character. I feel that'd be more fun. When you think about the journey, though, of going from where you were, the mission that you started, the why, the purpose was incredible, helping all these people, getting all these people to understand what to do in one of the worst or the worst moments of their life. to then building this out to being top three in the country. I've known about you all since you started.

Who doesn't know about Lemonade? If you're in the podcast industry, then everyone knows about the company that you've created. What was the scariest moment, though, of that journey? I mean, the scariest moment? I mean, there's so many scary moments. Every founder knows. I mean, building a business is,

I don't even know what the adjective is. It's tough, right? It's, you know, are we going to make payroll? Are we going to? I mean, there's like everything from that to, you know, are we going to get this top talent? Are we going to get this deal? Are we going to, everything is sort of, you know, are we going to blink, you know, today? And there's so many worries as a founder that you have. Are we going to map? Are we going to. to people? Is this show going to work? Is this investment going to work? Is it going to pay off? Are people going to, I mean, the podcast space is so saturated, right? Are people going to care about this show? Is it going to chart? Is it going to, are we going to have to sunset it? I mean, there's so much of that that happens. You know, and when you're making content, I always joke. It's like, I almost sometimes wish I made like hair ties because those like, you can like tell, okay, it's elastic or it's not, right? It's either going to work or it's not. When you're making, content, it's kind of like lightning in a bottle, right? Whether or not it's going to work. I got to fix my mic. It's doing this weird crooked thing. My husband got me this really fancy, not a mic, a camera, and it like turns with me and it drives me nuts. It moves with me. I'm like, I don't want it to move with me. I want it to just stay stationary. It's too smart. It's a smart camera. See,

it's doing it again. Okay. Anyway, so that, so I think like, all of those anxieties are sort of like part of the deal. I think, you know, when you're going through an acquisition, like that's a really scary, daunting process. It's like the most intense dating you've ever done. And then the diligence process, right? It's like opening your underwear drawer. I mean, it's like everything is, there's so much fear that comes along with running a company

that is yours. So it's hard to identify a single moment. I would say it's, and then the other thing I would say is that in the media industry, everything shifts so rapidly. Every 12 to 18 months, we have to sort of change the way we do things. I mean, we've been navigating over the last 12 to 18 months. I mean, you and I are doing a podcast now that's on video, right? Six years ago, seven years ago, we didn't do podcasts in video. They were podcasts. because they were audio only, right? And so we've had to navigate this huge shift to being a video first company. And every show we're launching this fall, we're launching five new shows this fall.

Every single one of them is video first. We have no audio-only shows that we're producing this fall. So we've completely had to shift the way that we do things internally, what our systems are, what our processes are, you know, audio people that are having to learn video, hiring specific expertise for this moment. It's tough. Yeah. It's a lot of pivoting. It's a lot of pivoting, as they say in the Friends episode, pivot.

Do you know that one? No. With the couch? I don't remember that. Okay. I need to look that up. Those through my head like once every month. Pivot.

That's what this job is. You have to be nimble and flexible and you have to constantly pivot. If you don't like doing that, I don't recommend running an employee. Stay an employee. I always think of this. Mindfold episode where he's like, what do I do with my hands? Like every time I take like a like a photo shoot or a video, I'm always thinking like, what do I do with my like?

Yeah. Yeah. What do you? I don't know. Who knows? I know. I know. When you were going through being acquired by PodX, when you sign the papers or whatever

the final things, did you and Jessica ever feel something like we're giving away the thing that we created for our. our brothers, or we created it for this purpose. Did you feel like I'm giving this away now? Or I'm letting go of it. And there could be sadness or happiness in that. I honestly don't think that flavor was part of it. I think we were so excited to become a part of something bigger. Right? When you're running an independent company. And again, like our peers in this space, the people were up against are like I-heart and Spotify. and Amazon. We're a little tiny company. And so the idea that we would be able to plug into this

bigger ecosystem and have some institutional support and not be out here fighting for our lives on our own, that was such a thrilling proposition to us. And we were so excited about the global part of it. Products is a global company. And we were their first U.S. acquisition. And the idea that we were going to be able to work with companies in the UK and the Nordics and France and Mexico and Argentina and all around the world was so exciting to us that that kind of like, oh, we're sad. We're giving it away. Maybe it's because my roots are in theater.

Like, that's my background. I'm like a team player. I like to make things with people. So for me, I'm like always like the more than. Marrier. And it was it was it felt like a really amazing, um, close of a chapter and the beginning of a new one that felt really important to us as a company. What's your favorite play? Oh my God. My favorite play of all time. Or when it comes to mind first, like when you're like, oh, I really like that one. I mean, I do, I do love blue man group. In fact, I tried to,

I'm going to New York in October and taking my kids and I wanted to take them to Blue Man Group because it's been around for 30 years and it was right next to my studio in New York on Astor Place. And it closed down in New York after 30 years. Do you know that? I didn't know.

I think I saw them 30 years ago. Okay, well, Dan, they're closed. You can't go see them. Wow. I mean, at least in New York. Anyway, yeah, I mean, I love a streetcar name Desire. It's a Tennessee Williams play. It's a beautiful play.

I love anything. by John Patrick Shanley. Yeah, I like the heavy stuff. And then I think, you know, Hamilton's a great musical. Love Hamilton. If you don't like Hamilton, you're crazy. Don't hang out with them.

If you don't like Hamilton, don't hang out or trust that person. I haven't seen it, though. I have not seen it. I think they made like a movie based on it with him in it, but I haven't seen. You need to stop doing this interview. right now and go watch Hamilton.

There's a Broadway taping of Lynn Manuel's version. And it's really, really. In fact, why don't you just go, go see it on Broadway? Where do you live? California. Oh, yeah, me too. So you're. Okay.

Make a trip to New York. I mean, it's an excuse to go to New York. I'm going to say a statement, and I would love for you to tell me what this statement means to you now. Make life suck less. That's my brand statement. So it means a lot to me. I mean, I think I say that 25,000 times every day.

But what does it mean? It's like, listen, I don't know if you have read the news lately, but it's not great out there. When we started the company, again, it was six months before COVID, the world shut down. Like, we had experienced this horrible crippling loss. And so we were so grief-stricken. And then the world became grief-stricken. And then waves hands everywhere. Like, it's not been so good.

And so we always say, like, the harder and harder it gets, the more need there is for Lemonada, you know? And Make Life Suck Less is about so many things. I mean, we do shows with the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation about caregiving, right, about being, like, squeezed in the sandwich generation. And then we do shows with Julia Lou Dreyfus about wisdom of older women, right? And we do, you know, Sarah Silverman program, which is very, very funny, but also like callers are calling, empathy. We do Mandy Patinkin show.

Make Life suck less is so many things, right? But the crux of it is just, it's not great. And we need to make it a little bit better. It's not. and it's very intentionally not joy, right? It's not like, let's all be happy. Like our baseline is that our brothers died. We're living in a world that is problematic, right? There are things that are broken in this world. Like, we're not aspiring for like joy and happiness. We're aspiring for like what can we do to like get through the day. You know what I mean? Like how can we just make it

suck a little bit less every single day in small and large ways. And that's what we, that's what we do at Lemonada. I would never take credit for the statement. I just thought, I just really enjoyed it because I've heard you use it. It's part of your company. It is. I had a friend who passed away. I think we were in our early 20s from his addiction. And sometimes I dream about him. Rarely. Like, I'm not rare. Like, like just randomly, I'll just have a dream and he'll just be in my dream. Does that ever happen to you with your brother? Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, my brother is so everywhere in my life. He's the reason that I do this. He's all over my office, like his artwork and his little weird toys because he was like a boy man.

I mean, his portraits in the house, his furniture is everywhere. I mean, he's everywhere, you know, and he shows up in my dreams and my children, you know, know, know about him. And, I mean, we talk about him all the time. So he's such a, he's such a presence. I prefer that he was here, obviously. But, but yeah, he's in, he's in, he's in the waking and the sleeping life, for sure. I know he invented the humble brag. Sure did. Sure did.

I mean, and he did work for some incredible shows. I always think, though, when I watch comedians or anyone that's in the comedic industry, and I've heard stories about some really famous comedians when they're off stage and when they're in private, that times, unfortunately, they're almost tormented souls. So we see a lot of comedians die of addictions. And I always wondered that if people that are attracted to comedy, is it because they're escaping maybe something that they have within themselves? I mean, I could go on and on about this all day. I think I do actually in my book. But yeah, I think that it's interesting with addiction. People always say like what's wrong with the addiction, but it's really like people use drugs to feel better, right? They don't use drugs to feel bad. That's a that's a sort of reverse shift you have to make in your mind. So Dr. Gabor Monti, who I've known for a few years now, he's come on my shift.

He's become a friend, and he's taught me a lot about addiction. And he thinks that every addiction, the root of it is trauma, some kind of a trauma. And for him, he says it doesn't have to be capital T trauma. Trauma is a wound. That's like the Greek word. That's what it means. And it can be any kind of wound. So he says trauma isn't what happens to us.

It's not the thing. It's what happens inside us. It's how we process it. So if you're an overly sensitive child, if you are, you know, if you have parents who are absent, if you, any sort of thing that if you're left out, if you're, you know, that can become a wound. And drugs are a way that we sort of sue that and heal that wound. And then eventually the negative consequences with severe addiction outweigh the benefits of the drug use, right? And that's where we see addiction that, catapults people's lives and, you know, that kind of severe, severe dependency. But, but yeah, I think that comedians are brilliant. I think if you're a brilliant thinking person in the world and you're always observing life, that you have an empathy about you and that you're, I mean, I think you're absorbing stuff in a way that is much more intensive and,

And with much more depth than the average person, you're literally observing the world. And then you have to turn that into something that's funny. But the root of that observation is typically stuff that's problematic, right? Or not working the way that you want it to work or there's pain underneath that. The comedy is like, you know, the flip side of comedy is tragedy. It's like all very, very intertwined. So, yeah, I think that's absolutely. accurate. I think it's tough. I would imagine to be a comedian in the sense that everyone always

wants you to be funny. And they think like every interaction means you have to be funny, but like you're saying, you're not just trying to be funny to be funny. You're trying to be funny because you have wounds and trauma and things. I imagine that's a tough part of being a comedian. But if he was sitting across from you, if your brother was sitting across from you right now, what do you think he would say about the person that you've had to become because of his death. I think he would, I think he would be like, you know, wow, this is too much attention on me. You need to, you need to stop, stop talking about me, please. Stop, stop shining a spotlight on me, please. He would, he would probably be very modest and humble. But no, I mean, we, we,

we were always like incredibly supportive of each other and our pursuits and um you know I think he would hopefully be proud and and uh you know I don't think Harris ever intended to not be here that was that was never his goal it was an accidental overdose as many of most of them are and you know, I think he would be glad that his death was able to inspire, you know, all of this change. I mean, my mission has become helping people through this and helping people like busting myths around addiction and, you know, really informing people because I do think that having knowledge, is power. I mean, it's, it's, if you are armed with, I just wanted a roadmap, right? Like, I'm an incredibly type A, uh, efficient, I'm an efficient woman, you know, like, I'm like, I'm like, gonna get shit done. Like, I'm very good at it. If you tell me the plan, I will execute the plan, but I need to know the plan, right? And so my whole sort of mission has been tell people, what they should do, tell people what this is, right? This isn't that your person is a selfish, lying, conniving,

whatever you think they are. They have a disease. And part of the disease is having to do whatever it takes because drugs are like oxygen. And if you're drowning and you can't breathe, like you're gonna do whatever you can to breathe. That's what it is. And I just think people, it's hard for people to understand

who are not going through it. So, you know, I just think understanding is everything. So that was a really long-winded answer to your question. I don't even know if I answered it. No, it was great. I appreciate being an author. I'm an author with my wife. We wrote a book.

And I know it's painstaking writing a book. It's probably the hardest thing. Not only just writing the book, then after the book, it's like a full-time thing in itself. And ours took like two and a half years to come out. And it was, I didn't even wanted to come out after I was already. in it and it was really it was a headache so uh i appreciate you doing that last day i can't wait till this comes out i believe it's in august if i'm not mistaken yep august 18th hope everybody gets it i've there it is last day i love it uh i've experienced a lot of things that you're saying with friends

people that i knew lost a lot of people in this similar path many of them were also young and it's a horrible thing. And there's a lot of stigmas around who those people are or who you think they are and don't realize many of them are your neighbors, friends, family. That's right. And you just don't know it. That's right. I appreciate. So thank you for that. And also, by the way, when I started our show here, I did a lot of research on Lemonada. And I wanted to study what you guys are doing, how you structure the network and it gave me inspiration to say at one time I want to create my own network of shows and I want to do something similar so I've been watching all your success so amazing indie podcast network being acquired like it does it doesn't happen that's so nice industry is

hard but thank you so much by the way for all that you've done you I mean your mission in life is incredible and thank you so much for joining us but I hope everyone gets it last day August 18th. Yeah. Thank you so much, Dan. That's so nice. I really, really appreciate it. And thank you for having me on. And congrats on the book. It is such a pain in the ass to write a book. It is the hardest thing ever. This is my second one. And I'm like, I'm never doing it again. I cut to seven years later when I do it again. But, you know, it's fine. We'll just keep touching the hot stove. You know what I mean? That's fine. It's fine.