Founder's Story - From Branding is Sex to Irrational Loyalty | Ep. 36 with Branding Guru Deb Gabor

Episode Date: October 1, 2020

Today's episode is sponsored by Anchor. Make sure to check out Anchor.fm and see why we love to use them as our podcast hosting. Deb Gabor was born to brand and is on a mission to inspire 1 million brands to build brands that SELL. She is the best selling author of two books Branding is Sex and Irrational Loyalty. She's the founder and CEO of Sol Marketing, a strategy-led marketing firm obsessed with solving major business and branding problems for clients in every industry. Deb has worked with well known companies such as Allrecipes, The Associated Press, Dell, Microsoft, NBC Universal, NPR, NTT Data, and Siemens, to exciting emerging brands like hint water and Indagare. Deb has been featured in major news outlets such as Entrepreneur, Forbes, FORTUNE, Inc., MediaPost, New York Times, NPR, USA Today, Wall Street Journal, and The Washington Post. Please rate, review, subscribe, and share with a friend who will be inspired. Visit KateHancock.com for insights into guests and future episodes. --- Support this podcast: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/ibhshow/supportOur Sponsors:* Check out PrizePicks and use my code FOUNDERS for a great deal: www.prizepicks.com* Check out Rosetta Stone and use my code TODAY for a great deal: www.rosettastone.comAdvertising Inquiries: https://redcircle.com/brandsPrivacy & Opt-Out: https://redcircle.com/privacy

Welcome to Inspired by Her, the podcast that will give you the inspiration, motivation, and tips for success from some of the top executives, CEOs, and influencers from around the globe. With your host, serial entrepreneur, and named one of the most influential Filipina in the world. We are live. Hi everyone, this is Kate. And today I have the amazing Deb Gabor. Hi Deb. Hi Kate, I am so happy to see you. You look so happy and just light today. Like how can you not be happy looking at Kate? Well Deb, the first time I met you isreece and that was an amazing talk and after that every time i have it was even every time someone asked me about branding i know that was you you're

that you're the right person to call so um dev everyone is a passion for brands and she's written the book of branding twice with bestsellers branding is sex and irrational loyalty she's the founder and ceo of soul marketing as strategy led marketing firm obsessed with solving major business and branding problems for clients in every industry. Now, Deb also lends her brand authority with frequent contribution and commentary to major news outlets such as Entrepreneur Forbes, Fortune, Half Post, New York Times. Deb, welcome. Thank you. Thank you. That's like such a big introduction for, you know, such not a big person, but I appreciate it. You are a big person. At five foot one, I'm gigantic, right? Now, Deb, what was your journey like to get where you are?

Let's see. Well, we can go all the way back to, like, do you want to start at birth? How far back do you want to go back? It's your call. I think probably what makes sense is if I start at the beginning of maybe my professional career, because I have a career that's kind of in three parts. The first part is where I started out as a young person and I really, really wanted to be a journalist. So I studied journalism in school. I wanted to be a writer, a broadcast journalist. I learned production, everything from filmmaking to music video production to doing hardcore news. I had an early job where I worked at the NBC affiliate in my hometown and I ran the assignment desk overnight. I did some remote reporting and then I had an opportunity to move to Chicago. And I took a job, a corporate communication job in a really, really large company. And then spent like, I want to say like eight years inside that company

doing a variety of positions. I was very fortunate that I went to a company. This is how it was in the old days. Like you, you work for a big company and sometimes they will pay for you to get more education. If you come back and you share your knowledge with other people. And so they paid for me to go to graduate school and I was able to get an MBA, uh, and you know, do some advanced study. And I got fascinated by, by marketing, which, which seemed like a natural outgrowth of journalism and communication. And so that's kind of where the fascination started. So that's phase one of my career. Phase two of my career was, it was the go-go days of the technology industry. And we were looking at like the first coming of the internet. So it was like web 1.0. And I got involved in some technology startups, which was super fun and

very enlightening. And everything that I had learned from big corporate, I had to take it and package it up and make it faster, like make it faster, make it cheaper, and then make it better to help grow these technology companies. So that was like phase two where I got to work in marketing and brand jobs in, in startup organizations. And these, you know, they're not startups in the sense of what we would think of as startups today. These were very large companies that were doing really big things and they were first to market with stuff. And so they ended up being like huge companies. Um, so they weren't like little startups. And then the third phase of my career was, was like the agency side of the business.

So I had an opportunity back in the late nineties. Uh, I think, I think I was getting ready to go to graduate school again. I'm not really sure why, maybe, I think I was getting ready to go to graduate school again. I'm not really sure why, maybe, maybe because it was something to do. And I was working for a company that was willing to pay for it. And I thought, what the heck, why not? Cause I'm a, I'm a lifelong learner. And I, I remember, I remember thinking at the time, do I want to stay in Chicago in the cold and go get more schooling and continue working for this one company? Or do I want to try something different? And at the time, my brother was living in Austin, Texas.

And he said, you need to come here and visit. It's a really cool place. And I was like, all right, I'll see if I can get a recruiting trip. So I opened myself up to recruiters and I got recruited, actively recruited by a company here in Austin. And they, they, they brought me for an interview and, you know, a weekend long and whatever. And needless to say, I'm here, right? I fell in love with the city. I fell in love with the lifestyle. This was very much at the beginning of Austin's like massive growth. So I got here early and, and the switch that I had made was like from working inside of technology companies on marketing and branding to being on the consulting side.

So I ran a business unit of a company that was about brand consulting and research for the technology industry. And then that's where my, my love of branding and the development of the methodology that I use today, it like, it really started with that job. And that was, oh gosh, I, I, I left that job in say 2000, then had another agency job. And then in 2003, I accidentally became an entrepreneur. Hmm. Wow. I'm sure you've heard that story before, right? No, this is the first time. Oh yeah. I've heard it all the time. I, yeah, I heard it all the time. Now, Deb, I, you know, what advice would you give for company right now? This is a tough time. I've been listening to a lot of your Devin are, which is by the way, you've, you know, that's another branding. It's so creative.

Well, I mean, it's kind of a joke, but then it's not really a joke because it's sort of taken hold. And now I have people out there, you know, referring to them as Devin ours. And then I had a very wise, um, intellectual property attorney tell me you ought to, you ought to trademark that. And I was like, okay, I'll start using the trademark symbol. I'm learning about intellectual property through my own little thing. But yeah, I mean, it is a crazy time. And I can tell you a little bit about the story of that and where that originated and kind of what that's all about. Absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, you met me, I was at a speaking engagement the first time that we met, right? And over the past, probably the past three or four years, that's how I spend almost all of my time in business is traveling all around the world, speaking at events.

I've spoken at a number of EO chapters, regional events, national, international events, you know, for lots of organizations and events and things like that. And on March the 11th, when the WHO declared that we were in a global pandemic and a South by Southwest was canceled, I was like, all right, well, here goes, here goes my spring. Like here goes my whole career. Here goes everything that I was going to do. And in, in that moment, instead of panicking, I had a moment of clarity, which was what can I do with my time that would make me indispensable to other people and could help other people through a really, really difficult time. And I reminded myself, like, I'm all about creating a rational loyalty. I have information to share. I've simplified the branding process for businesses

all over the world. Why don't I go out there and share that expertise generously without any expectation of anything in return? Yeah. And that's where the Devin R was born, right? And so it's been an evolution. And I first started out, really, I started out, I was like, I need to get in front of business leaders, business owners, entrepreneurs, executives, creators, I need to get in front of business leaders, business owners, entrepreneurs, executives, creators, people with personal brands, experts. I need to get in front of them and make sure that they don't screw up their brands during this time, that this is a crisis, that they recognize that their brand is in crisis, but there are things that they can do right now to protect the brand and ensure that it thrives in the long term. So that

was sort of like phase one of that. And then as I started to see things develop, then it was more of a shift, my recognition that there's no going back to the way we were before. We have been fundamentally changed as human beings. I went from having this big life, right? We met in Greece. Like my life is international travel and being all over the world. I was supposed to be on like every continent with the exception of Antarctica this year. And now I have a really, really small life where I value the simpler things, you know, the connections among people. Like my biggest excitement every day is like the 90 minutes I take to go outside and get some vitamin D and get some exercise,

right? So you go, like people have been fundamentally changed by this. And I, and I realized like nothing will ever be the same. And so my pivot was then how can I help organizations reimagine their brand, not change the brand, but reimagine it, knowing that people are fundamentally different and our world is never going back to the way that it is. And then where I am now is I'm sharing the love because I have very, very smart, talented friends who I have cultivated over the years who do incredible things. They're experts, right? They're experts, they're authors, they're consultants, they're coaches, they're like, they're creators. They're people with big fat brains who know way more stuff than I do. And so I started bringing those people together with me and then

giving them a platform to share information that elevates people, all of this without the expectation of anything in return. And so this is important because I think that your audience can learn from this. I have never worked harder in my life, giving away things for free, and it's never been better for my business. I'm using my expertise to bring people to me. As a result, my community was maybe at the start of this, like 4,500 people. We've grown that exponentially over the last eight weeks just by bringing more and more people together. And so we're well up over 20,000 people. We have lots of, I call them repeat offenders, like people who are, you know, they want to engage in a bunch of different ways. And I have met new people who are telling us, like, if you build the community and you engage the community, they'll tell you

what they want to buy from you. Right. And so we're writing proposals. We're doing new business. We're, we're, we're engaging with new people and elevating them in different ways and inspiring them and making a difference. And so, um, that has been that, that has been this like nine week journey that's just been so fascinating that's amazing right wow wow I've been to your debonair by the way you have you know it's I have to have a book writing everything that comes out from you I have I have to share that to you and that's funny well you know I it it it, it's really, it's interesting because my daughter started working for us this week. She just graduated from college. And, uh, it's one of the assignments that I gave her right off the bat was you need to

read both of these books. You need to attend. I had done a speaking engagement yesterday. I think that she attended that she listened in on, and then she's like reviewing all these videos and stuff like that. She, she's like, mom, you should do like a multiple choice quiz or something like that. That's like a trivia quiz that like you throw out a brand name and then everybody has to guess like, what is the branding concept that you use that brand name with? She's like totally getting into it or whatever, whatever. But she told me, she's like, mom, you know, your stuff, which I have to say as the mother of a, of a young woman, I'm like, all right, I'm glad that you see that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Now, Deb, can we talk about

the irrational loyalty? Can we talk about that? How can companies get that or achieve that? Yeah. So, you know, I'm, I'm passionate about this concept of irrational loyalty. And you and I have talked about this before. Irrational loyalty is this condition where people are so incredibly bonded to your brand that they'd feel like they were cheating on you if they were to go somewhere else or do something else. And so I sometimes describe to people, it's the way I feel about my iPhone. You know, I've owned every i-thingy Apple has ever made, and I'm a big fan.

I love the brand. I love the technology. I love everything about it, but mostly I love what it says about me as a human being to other people, and it elevates my brand concept, my self-concept. And I often tell the story of a couple of years ago, Samsung came out with a competitive product that was functionally superior. It was at its core, better technology. It performed better. It had faster memory. It had more durable glass. It costs $200 less. Everything about it was superior to the iPhone. Yet when I held it in my hand, I felt dirty. And that's the very essence of irrational

loyalty. And so irrational loyalty is this condition that when brands can create that, they can sustain the type of turbulence that we're going through right now. And the way that brands create that is they do essentially three aim their brand at a singular ideal customer archetype, like a real human being, right? They aim their brand at a real human being who would be the perfect person for their brand. So for instance, I have a brand driven strategy led marketing agency. Our ideal customer is, she is the amalgamation of our three favorite best customers from across the years. Her name is Lindsay. We have a picture of her. We know what she looks like. We know what she likes. She's a great listener. She's got big ears. She's very

influential in her industry and her job. So she's got a bunch of awards. She has a golden shovel in her hand where she can dig for extra budget if we come up with great ideas together and things like that. When we know who she is and we can actually picture who she is, we know her beliefs and values and we can broadcast our beliefs and values to bring us together so that we're aligned. So that's the first thing that those brands do. So, you know, when you think about, and this is especially important right now during COVID time, because brands increasingly have to show up with a set of values and beliefs. People want to know what you stand for. Like the biggest brand crisis hasn't

even hit us yet, which is as we're reopening economies and we're sending people back to work and how do they do that? So that ideal customer thing is so important so that we can take a walk on my own, their shoes and know their values and beliefs. And then two, three, and four is bottom line. They have to answer these three questions. What does it say about a person that they use the brand? So the self-expressive benefits of the brand, the things that I know, like if I rolled up next to you in a Ford F-150 pickup truck at the stop sign, you'd be like, she's reliable. She's dependable. She probably has a dog. She likes to help her friends move. She's sort of rugged, right? Which none of that is true. I have a dog. That's it. Not dependable. I don't like to help my friends move. I don't have a

pickup truck. But you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So what does it say about a person that they use the brand? Second question, what's the one thing they get from the brand that they can't get from anyone else? So that's about singularity. The best brands in the world are truly singular. They have unimitatable features to them that are never part of the product. It's something transcendent. And then the third thing is how do you make your customer a hero in their own story? So the best brands in the world, they aim it at that ideal customer. So they know the beliefs and values that they're aligning with and they can identify that and they, they will know how they're supposed to behave. And then they answer those three questions. Amazing. Just right there. Boom. Yeah. That's, I mean, that's the whole methodology. You don't even have to read any of the books. That really, like, it is as simple as that. I really believe that this information about how to achieve a rational loyalty should be available to everyone who needs it. It has to be accessible. It has to be understandable. And above all, it has to be actionable. I mean, yeah, there's lots more to it, but you know, like I said, I give away the

expertise for free because I believe that it's accessible for everybody, regardless of what kind of business they have. You have a service business, right? It's experiential. And, and, you know, somebody else may have a product business, you serve consumers, I serve other businesses, the, the core tenants of the methodology and, and what makes internationally loyal brand connection is the same across all of those things. Well, Deb, I have to thank you. I was listening to one of your debonair and you shared that, you know, we have to turn off that automatic.

Oh yes. Oh my God. And you shared that, you know, we have to turn off that automatic. Oh, yes. Oh, my God. So right there, I literally that saved me a lot of headache because then it's like customer were like, what are you open? Like, they're so confused. So can you tell me more about that? A lot of brands are making that mistake, even up to now. Yeah.

So so just for everybody who's watching this, just understand I'm not against marketing automation. I love marketing automation. It has made a lot of what we do in terms of bringing customers and, and businesses together, like creating a market. That is what marketing is. Marketing automation has enabled us to create ways where we can respond to people's digital body language. We can serve them up personalized things. We can engage them. We can nurture them, all that kind of stuff. But living inside your marketing automation are potential negative Easter eggs that can kill your brand. For instance, the email that I received that would have been at the same time as say spring break in Texas back in March that said staycation is better than vacation,

which I was like, Ooh, bad headline, bad email, right? This is anything but a staycation folks, right? Or, uh, you know, something else that's living in your marketing automation that you may not be thinking about is your pre-programmed social posts, right? So I'm scrolling through Instagram, like looking at all my, my favorite restaurants in Austin, a lot of which are in danger of going out of business. And one of them like making a very authentic plea, like, please, please, please buy gift certificates so that when we open up again, you know, we'll be here. We will still be here to serve you. And then directly below it is an ad from a company that is selling a free custom restaurant business plan. Well, I can give you a custom restaurant

business plan. Everybody who's watching this right now, here's the custom restaurant business plan for you from Deb Gabor. And it's don't open a restaurant right now. Right. But these things are living in your, in your marketing automation, which the bigger picture of that, like what you mentioned, like confusing customers, like, are you open? Are you not open? Et cetera, et cetera. The bigger issue with that is now is a time to humanize communication. Now is a time to humanize marketing. Now is a time to be authentic and honest. So here's a really, really good sort of counterintuitive thing that people aren't thinking about right now, right? We're all home. I mean, most of us are, unless we're an essential worker, but most of us, a lot of us are

home. Like I live inside these four walls all day long. I am glued to a screen every minute of every day. Every buying decision that I make is informed by something I see online. I am on zoom and I am freaking exhausted. Call me on the phone. Call me on the phone, pick up the phone and call me. I am, I I'm here. I I'm here. Right? So, so it's counterintuitive, but pick up the phone. We were, we were talking to a company that has 350 software clients, other businesses, and they got some PPP money and they, and they said, we're not, uh, our, uh, our customer success people in our business development, people don't have anything to do. What do we do with them? Cause the phone stopped ringing and said, pick up the phone. And they said, what do we say?

We said, ask them, are you okay? Right. You know, engage them in a conversation. Interesting thing. They reached like more than 40% of those people live on the first try because they're there. Right. The, the other thing that's counterintuitive right now is there's never been a better time to send people something nice, right? There's never been a better time for direct mail. There's never been a better time for print. The most exciting part of my day, besides the 90 minutes that I go out and walk my dog is when I go to the, when I go to the mailbox, sometimes I even wear, I wear heels when I go because I'm so excited to go to the mailbox. Right. So a lot of the things that we had, that we had sort of pushed aside in deference to modern marketing techniques have, have taken some of the humanity out of what we've been doing. And now is a time to like humanize that marketing. It really is the companies that are

going to do well are the ones that ask themselves, how can we be indispensable to our customers at this time? And you could probably relate to this. So one of, one of my favorite, favorite beauty rituals is I love eyelash extensions, which I don't have any right now. I just have it. I miss it. I miss it. I miss it so much. I miss it so, so, so much, but my eyelash studio, they've been closed. They just opened up last week. Cause in Texas, you know, we're going through a phased approach to opening business, but they waited. They, they, they didn't open right away when everybody else did, which I'll, I'll talk about that. But like during the

time that they were closed, they continue to communicate with us in a very, very humanized way. They did send us emails, but these were very personalized emails. And these emails were sharing information like, uh, you probably want to know how to get those ugly last three eyelash extensions off your eyes without pulling out your eyelashes. Yes. Yes. And here's three ways to do it. Right. Um, another thing was, uh, they, they partnered with a makeup artist and they did some online makeup tutorials, like how to do eye makeup when you don't have glamorous eyelashes. Very helpful. The right makeup colors to wear when you're on Zoom.

Like show acknowledgement of humanity and the current situation and ask yourself the question of how can I be indispensable right now? I couldn't use the brand. Like I couldn't go there. It's nothing I could do, but they're, they're always top of mind to me and they're in my heart. Right. And when they didn't open right away, like I had a pang of disappointment, but they know their ideal customer so well. And they ask themselves the question of how would our ideal customer want us to open up? And, and the owner of the, of the studio, she, she created a very nice, authentic, sincere video that went out to all of the clients. And she said, I know you guys are all like champing at the bit

to get back in here and get your eyelashes. And we can't wait to see you. We are not ready for you yet. Our, our concern first and foremost is to ensure that we have a safe environment, mostly for our employees and then for you, our guests. And that's why we're delaying our opening until we feel like we're ready to go. And then when we are ready to go, this is how we're going to take appointments. I admire that so much, right? Because it was a true acknowledgement of like, what would customers want? And so the one little kernel in there that I really want people to take away, especially if they have an experiential business or it's retail or it's restaurant or food or services business or something like that, that people haven't been able to use and they're opening up. If you don't know what to do on your opening a hundred percent of the time, like if you're like, I don't know, I really don't know

my ideal customer. I don't know what they would expect from us. I don't know what they would think our values are, what their values are, whatever. And I'm like really struggling with that. I'm paralyzed. The first place you should look is your employees and think about how, how would my employees want me to open up? Because your employees, regardless of what kind of business you're in, your employees deliver your brand promise, right? Focus on your employees first. And my prediction is the organizations that focus on their employees first are the ones that are going to endure because your brand is not separate from your culture and your people. It's intertwined. And the other thing is people on the outside, customers are looking to brands

for leadership. They want to see what is Kate doing? How is she treating her employees? If she has her employees safety and health and wellbeing and happiness at the forefront, then I can trust her and I can, I can trust her with my consumerism. Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. No, I have, I have to, I have to thank you in a lot of ways. I've been following what you, your advice and I've been, I'm grateful. So thank you for creating the debonair, Deb. You have to trademark that seriously. You're welcome. Yeah. There's other people out there. Like I have, I have another friend, I have another friend in EO. Um, you'd probably, everybody knows him. Ami Kassar. So Ami has been calling them, he's been calling them ominars. And the

other night, my, uh, and my, the, the other people in my forum, like my phone is blowing up in the group text and somebody posted in there. They're like, is anybody else pissed off the fact that he's calling them ominous? And I totally had to laugh. Cause I'm like, it's totally a joke between us, but, um, yeah, this Devin, our thing I think is here to stay. Yes. Yes. No, Deb, whose brand is winning right now? Whose brand is winning? Interesting. I'll tell you which brands are not winning.

They're the ones that are all like playing that same commercial. The one that starts with the tinkly piano music. And then you see the scene of the healthcare workers taking off the mask and their, you know, their faces are all messed up. And then you see the people clapping on their balcony for the frontline workers. And then it's the montage of the things that everybody's doing at home. And then at the end, it's like, we are all in this together and they're virtually indistinguishable from each other. I'll tell you, those brands are not winning because they don't know what to say. I think one of the brands that's winning, and I don't know if you're familiar with this brand,

but if people are watching from Texas, they definitely are. It's HEB, which is a big regional grocery chain here. They're winning and they've been winning the whole time. It's been difficult to get groceries. Every time I order groceries, I get substitutions. They're like, well, we're out of chicken, so why don't you take these hazelnut cookies? And I'm like, okay, great. You know, I'm irrationally loyal to the brand. They've done a really, really good job because they have followed the sort of the cardinal rules of crisis communication, which are first and foremost, show regard for humanity. Secondly, take full responsibility, you know, and be open and transparent, communicate, communicate, communicate. Like if you have to drive the narrative, if you're not driving the narrative, the audience is going to do it for you. So they're constantly out there communicating because here's the biggest thing that I learned through this period. And that is that we as human beings, we can handle bad news. We really can. We can handle the bad news of, Hey, we're out of toilet paper, right? We can handle that. If you

tell us the truth and you communicate with clarity and confidence and let us know, here's everything we're doing to try to get it back in. And here's some recommendations of places where it is available. And so like making sure that we are not filling the empty spaces with the most terrifying ideas is what's helping these brands win. I also see a lot of brands that are, that are like, they're really helping. They're helping with inspirational content. They're helping, they're, they're helping, like they're actually helping. Like they're, they're, they've retooled their factories to be able to make masks or ventilators or hand sanitizers. I've got a friend here in Austin who owns a,

he owns a chain of eco-friendly dry cleaners. He's doing this amazing thing with his existing community where he's given them the ability to donate loads of wash and fold laundry to people directly on the front line. Like our healthcare workers, our grocery store workers, our Amazon drivers, our Postmates drivers, they all need this help. And so the organizations that are helping before selling, the organizations that are giving without any expectation of anything in return are the ones that I see that are just doing a terrific job. And it's not just big brands. I mean, I actually think it's the more entrepreneurial brands that I see being more nimble, you know, not like trying to shove stuff down our throats. I have been so impressed

with the global entrepreneur community over the past nine weeks in terms of the things that they have been able to pull off together using assets and resources that they have. And I'm so inspired by that. And I think that that big business is looking to us as a, you know, as a model for how they should behaving. Cause a lot of them were just paralyzed. They didn't know what to do. Whereas the rest of us entrepreneurs were like, what are we going to do now? Right? Yes. You know? Yeah. Now how should, um, I've read your post about how you're impressed with that Uber CEO, that kind of messaging. Is that you? Me? Oh no. Airbnb. Airbnb. Yes. Not Uber. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Tell me what you like about it. Okay. So what I was referring to there, and I shared this probably on all my social medias, a couple of weeks ago, Airbnb did a devastating reduction in force where they let go of 25% of their workforce, which totaled about 1900 people. And Brian Chesky, the, the founder and CEOs email that he sent out to the entire company, which I believe is on the Airbnb blog and people can see it. It's very, very public. It was a, it was a masterclass in employee communication that it had care. Like I get

choked up thinking about it because like, it's devastating to let go of people. Like I've had to, I've, I've had to let go of beloved employees during this time. And it, it really is the hard, one of the main reasons why I have my own business is so I don't have to do that. And so it's been really hard for me, but what made his communication so admirable and such a model, an inspirational model for business leaders like us is that it was sincere. It was authentic. It was full of gratitude for what these people had contributed to the organization. He expressed real vulnerability and, and sadness. Um showed regard, not just for the people who were exiting the business, but also for the people who are left there. Because when you go through something that extreme and you do that deep a cut to your workforce, the people who are left behind suffer from

incredible survivor's guilt. And, you know, I don't know, I've been, I've been the person left behind after big layoffs a couple of times. And it's like, it's survivor's guilt. There's, there's like these weird PTSD feelings. There's the constant feeling of fear. It's really, really hard as an employee to continue to be engaged in like delivering on the brand promise. He did such an incredible job of demonstrating like true, like leadership from the heart. It, uh, I learned, I, it's a three paragraph long email. And I was like, this is everything I need to know about leading in turbulent times. And so like, if you haven't read that. I have to, it's in my inbox because I have Airbnb. Yeah. I mean, and they shared that with their customers. Like, so, so that's another point

there is that, you know, during difficult times, focus on your own community, right? And your community is your employees. It's your employees' families. It's your customers. It's the people who follow you on social media. It's the geographic communities where you exist. But focus on your own community and offer to elevate them and help them. And communicating transparently.

When we are all back traveling again, it's going to take a long time for, for people to like restore trust in staying in someone's personal vacation home. I mean, personally, I own a couple of vacation homes and I know you're in the hospitality business. Like I own a couple of vacation homes. I'm, I, I have taken them, like I've taken them completely out of circulation for now because I'm like, I, I don like, I don't know how to instill traveler confidence right now. I don't know if I'm going to be able to do enough. So it's going to take a lot before people are staying in Airbnbs and stuff like that again. But when they are, like we refer to them as Airbnbs now, don't we? Like we've made that their brand

name is synonymous with a category of hospitality now. And I think that's going to help them. I think that's going to help them endure. And so like, even though they've done these disappointing things, like as an Airbnb person, they, they actually made a payment to me to compensate me for lost rents, like for cancellations. I mean, it was like 25% of the lost rents, which I'll tell you something is better than nothing, right? That's going to bond me as a vacation home owner to that brand. I can tell you who didn't do that is their top competitor, right? And so, and I think it was Mark Cuban who said this a couple of weeks ago. He said, you know, what you do during this time and how you show up during this time, the actions you

take during this time as a brand are going to define you forever. So, so like Brian's email, like flat out, one of the best things I've ever seen. That's amazing. Now I'm going to ask you, Deb, can you name a person who has had a tremendous impact on you as a leader. Oh my gosh. So many, so many people who have had an impact on me as a leader. Um, I, you know what, I'm going to pick a mutual friend of ours. Okay. Um, and, and if she's watching this or she, she's seeing the recording, she, she might actually be surprised by this, um, or, or maybe not. I don't know. And that's Winnie Hart.

Yes. Um, and I, so I don't, I don't know Winnie that well. Um, we have, you know, worked around each other on various like EO committees and, you know, she's on the global board. I'm on the global communication committee for EO right now. But she's been an incredible like mentor to me in helping me. I have a tendency to be this like very, very forceful person, right? It just like, it's in my nature. I, I'm a, I'm like all gas pedal, right? I'm like, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go. And I, sometimes I arrive at a conclusion long before everybody else has. And one of the things that I don't do very well is build alignment along the way. I

know this about myself. I'm very self-aware. It's something that I'm working on and whatever. She has been for me a model of somebody who is extraordinarily visionary and a person of action who also can build alignment in a very finessed kind of way. Yeah. And in my mind, I've always, like, I've always felt like my bull in a China shop approach was like mutually exclusive of being able to like build that sort of finessed alignment. And oh my gosh gosh if she doesn't just do it every time um that is some like that has been incredibly inspirational to me so so winnie if you're if you're watching this and i hope you are because i know you're a big fan of kate too um i i would say i would say thank you it's like been very inspirational it's a very very specific thing that that i have taken from that that's inspirational to me yeah she's just very I don't

know hard to discover yes she's so like calm and like so positive she's calm she's positive she's inspirational she's forward-looking she's warm very and very generous of her time and like just look up the best like for everyone I, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She like there, she, she is a person. She like the true, uh, the true, like living, walking, breathing example of servant leadership. The other thing that's interesting is she's in the same business as I am. Like she does for her work, like her day job, she does the same thing that I do. Um, and I'm inspired by what she's doing in her business too. Like I, you her work, like her day job, she does the same thing that I do. Um, and I'm inspired by what she's doing in her business too. Like I, you know, I see things I'm like, wow,

that's, that's super cool. And I love how she does that. And that's amazing. And, and I, you know, I, I, I have, I have learned so much from her. Um, especially like I, I used to be, I used to be less mature and I might've said like, Hmm, you know, I might've had a little, I might've had a little envy or a little bit of jealousy or something like that. But, um, no, no, not, not at all. And so like, I know that I've grown as a leader, I've grown as a human. Um, and you know, in part because of all these relationships, like the, you know, like the Winnie relationship, which I wish I could spend more time with her. I've learned things from you. Like, you know, one of the things that I think

is so cool about you is you have this incredible curiosity. I mean, every conversation that we've ever had has been a, like you've initiated it and you're like, I want to understand this. I want to learn this. Can you help me? I'm curious about this. Like, you know, I'm inspired by that too. There you go. And thank you for giving your time. And I'm forever thankful. Like I said, one day I'm going to take you to the Philippines and we talk about it. And I'm totally going to go like, as soon as you know who needs a day off, I need a freaking day off. I need a day off in the Philippines. Do you want to drive to Joshua tree? I have an RV there.

I could give it to you for a week. Do whatever you want. I would love it. So my parents, my parents live in Southern California and over here. Is it San Clemente? They live in Oceanside, but they're not too far. And then I have a brother who has a, who has a home in Big Bear. And so, you know, I would like to triangulate the whole thing and I love Palm Springs and all that kind of stuff. So I'm going to take you up on that. I'll give you the key. I'll just hide it somewhere. Okay. It's an RV. That's so cool. Sounds in the middle of

nowhere. You know, it kind of reminds me of Utah, has the backdrop of yes so with all of the red rocks and yes but not red but so cool now Deb what is your greatest fear and how do you manage fear what is my greatest fear um I learned from somebody a couple of weeks ago that everybody is, everybody is fearful of two major primal things, the fear of not being enough or the fear of not being loved. So this is a, this is a weird one. It's a really, it's a really complex question. But it's like, it's a real thing that's always in my mind. My fear is that I will die alone.

You weren't expecting that, were you? You were like, she's going to say spiders. I wasn't expecting that. Which I don't like spiders, but I'm not afraid of them. Yeah. I mean, like that's a very honest and vulnerable answer. And so, you know, if you, like, if you were to like really, really dissect me, almost every decision that I make in my life and every move I make is like somehow motivated by this fear that I'm going to die alone. It's a, I'm not, I'm, I'm going to say I'm like not really motivated by my fear. I'm very internally motivated by other things. But you know, if there was one overriding fear that looms like a black cloud, it's that one.

Is that weird? No. I mean, yeah, I guess that's the fear of not being loved. I mean, I'm, you know, I'm in a nice relationship. I have a wonderful, a wonderful daughter and, you know, wonderful family and, you know, friends everywhere in this world and all that kind of stuff. Yet I possibly irrationally fear dying alone. So anyway, my high school friends, if you're watching this right now, like I still remember you and I want to see you at my funeral. There you go. And Deb, what advice would you give to any aspiring entrepreneur? Wear sunscreen. Um, what advice, like that's such a broad question, right? Um, I'll bring it back. You know what, I'll bring it back around to branding because that's the thing that I really, really know.

Um, I, you know, the, the advice that I would, the advice that I would give about, uh, an aspiring entrepreneur is think about the brand from the start, like regardless of what it is that you're trying to build, I hope that you're building something that solves an acknowledged problem for somebody, understand who that somebody is and how the use of your whatever it is elevates them and makes them better in their life and strive for that condition of a rational loyalty. You know, the reason that the reason that I do branding and the reason that I want everybody to have a strong brand is because if you have a strong brand and you have strong bonds between brands and their customers, that makes healthier businesses, healthier businesses create healthier economies. And we

all know that healthier economies make healthier, more sustainable people. I mean, that's just short of like branding saves the world. It's just short of branding saves the world. But I mean, there's like, there's real meaning behind why I do what I do. And I hope that, that every, every babypreneur out there who's looking to start something or like, you know, most of us entrepreneurs, like we never met a shitty idea that we didn't want to pursue. So we all have multiple businesses going on and we're starting up new things and whatever. I, I, I want to encourage people that as they do that, that they, they just keep that idea in their mind that they should be striving for a rational loyalty right out of the gate. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I have, I can't, I don't think I can thank you enough.

Even a flight to the Philippines, you have no idea how you've helped my brand in the Philippines. I really reshaped that whole thing after our zoom 30 minutes when I asked you about branding. No way. That's awesome. Yeah. So I love hearing that. Yeah, really did. I changed it like everything around what we talk about. So I'm going to have to come visit that. Yes. Right. Yes. We can do that now. Deb, think of someone who cares deeply for you.

What would they say your purpose is? Well, I'm actually living this in real time, which is sort of interesting. I'm assuming that my 22-year-old daughter cares deeply for me. And she just started working for my company. Her first day was last Friday, so she's like not even a week into it. And some of the assignments that we give new people as they onboard is like read Deb's books, watch some videos, like, you know, follow people around and, and whatever. Um, and I, I want to say like last night or the night before she's like, I'm reading your book right now while I'm drinking some white claws. Um, and I just

think it's so cool that you, that you, you literally wrote the book on branding, right? And so I, I forwarded her an email that I had received from somebody that, that said, you know what, thank you for setting me on the right path and giving me this idea to, you know, give generously to my community at this time. Here's some quotes from emails and letters that we've received from our customers that indicate that we're making a difference to them. And I want to thank you. I never would have thought of this on my own. And so I forwarded that to her and I was like, so I, you know, I want to remind you that whatdriven person, that I'm a purpose-driven person,

that I show up every day living the core values of yes. And we do hard things, be the CEO of your own desk. A win for one is a win for all and use your magic in, in every interaction. I think she would, I think that she would say that. And it's interesting. Cause like when you watch children, when you watch children grow up, they probably don't understand your motivations and why you behave the way that you do. And then it's so interesting to me because now I have this person like in my, it's a virtual workplace now, but she's in my workplace. And so now she sees me moving around and she's like, aha, my mother lives a life of purpose. I get it. So I think that, I think that's what she would say. I predict that's what she was. I hope that that would, that's what she would say. Or she might say,

you know, she might say like, my, my mom's a good boss. I don't know. Wow. That's, are you nervous and excited at the same time having her on board? Yeah. I, you know, just to be like really, like really real with you. Um, I've, I've talked to a number of people who have other family members working in their business and like just having them share experiences and it's a mixed bag. It truly is a mixed bag. And I've had many clients that are like family businesses. And I'll say it's like 50, 50 in terms of like, this is a successful relationship or it's not a successful relationship. And so like my two, my two greatest, my two greatest fears are that, um, she and I both are going to have to work harder than anybody else to ensure that, you know, that she looks like the credible choice for the job. Right. And, and that's, that makes me a little

bit fearful. Um, and then, uh, you know, what if it, what if it ends up being something she doesn't want to do, uh, then, you know, and she goes and does something else, then that reflects on me. I mean, like it's so fraught with disaster, but the flip side of that is like, I've talked to many, many people, a lot of them EO members who have family members working in their business, where I've learned things like the relationships that I have with my family members who are coworkers or employees are such that like there's this fierce loyalty that I don't get from anybody else. And I've learned about like all of the positive sides of things. So it's still too early

to tell, but you know, she and I both put our reputation on the line to like bring her into the business, especially since she graduated with a degree in musical theater and not marketing. So, but you know, the things that make her a good performer are the things that are going to make her an incredible brand strategist and marketer. Like, you know, yeah. You know, it's like, uh, she understands character. She understands story. She knows how to tell stories. She knows how to find story. I mean, and that, that's what brand is. Yeah, absolutely. Wow. Now, Deb, how do you want to be remembered? Just like this. I want to be remembered. I want to be remembered with a better haircut. My goodness. Um, and also with my eyelash extensions and my

nails done and all that kind of stuff. How do I want to be remembered? I want, so I first and foremost, I want to be remembered as, um, as a, like as a kick-ass mom, um, which it's really funny when I went to, I went to a high school reunion a couple of years ago and you know, you go to the, I hadn't gone to many of them in this one I went to and I actually talked to people and it was funny because people are like, Oh, I'm not at all surprised with what you're doing. Not surprised that you've written some bestselling books, not surprised that you're traveling around the world as a speaker, not surprised that you're doing these things. You have a company, et cetera, et cetera. The thing that people were most surprised about was they were like, you have a kid

and she's not dead. Right. And so, okay. Yeah. So I guess, I, I guess the people who knew me when I was younger like never like never in a million years imagined that I would be like this sort of nurturing kind of person and and and and it's interesting because the relationship I have with my kid it's like it's not like that I mean we are uh people always say they're like, Oh, you're like, uh, Rory and Lorelei on Gilmore girls, you know, like that kind of relationship. Cause I raised her by myself since she was four. Um, I, I, I want to be remembered for, I want to be remembered for being an awesome mom who encouraged and empowered my kid to do whatever she wanted to like just the fact that she graduated uh last week with a degree in college a bachelor of fine arts and musical theater and that i i encouraged

her all the way and she graduated to a place where like her you know her profession doesn't even exist anymore i mean we don't know when that's going to come back. She's like, there is no Broadway. And it's, but I want her and I want everybody else to see that I gave her a foundation where she could make her pivot and she felt like she was highly resourced. And what I mean by resourced, not money and things and stuff like that, but resourced in her heart and her brain and her abilities to like persevere, you know, that's, that's what I'm hoping. And also I'm looking at the time. I got to make sure I'm not supposed to be in another, another thing we've gone on for

like, I'm so sorry. We were talking here so long. I know I do have to go to another meeting. I'm so sorry. We were talking here so long. I know I do have to go to another meeting. I'm so sorry. I was like, Oh my gosh. Wow. Um, what's your handle? My handle, like on, on all the things I'm, uh, on Twitter, I'm at Deb underscore soul, S O L like sun in Spanish. And then anything that you ever wanted for me is at debgabor.com. Debgabor.com. It's got webinars. It's got downloads. It's got videos. It's got like read about the books. It's got links so you can go to the company, all that kind of stuff. So

find me at debgabor.com. And I hope people will look me up. And Kate, I'm so grateful that you come on your, come on your show. You've got'm so grateful that you so much come on your come on your show you've got some terrific people that you are that you are talking to so like I I feel like I'm in I'm honored to be no I'm honored for you to be here oh my god you have no damn thank you so much I appreciate you I'm forever thankful all right well stay in touch stay well wash your hands don't touch your face like have a little fun I'm coming to Joshua Tree yes yeah I hope well wash your hands don't touch your face like have a little fun I'm coming to Joshua Tree yes yeah I hope you enjoyed the show don't forget to rate review and subscribe and visit katehancock.com so you don't miss out on the next episode