Founders - #413 How To Run Down A Dream

Episode Date: March 3, 2026

Running Down A Dream: How to Succeed and Thrive in a Career You Love by Bill Gurley has been one of the most valuable talks I've heard. For years I have been using ideas from that talk to build this podcast. Bill has written a new book based on that talk: Runnin' Down a Dream: How to Thrive in a Career You Actually Love. This episode explores the most valuable ideas from the book and talk. Episode sponsors: Ramp⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ gives you everything you need to control spend, watch your costs, and optimize your financial operations —all on a single platform. Make history's greatest entrepreneurs proud ⁠⁠⁠by going to Ramp.com to learn how they can help your business save time and money.⁠⁠⁠ https://ramp.com Automate compliance, security, and trust with Vanta.⁠ ⁠⁠⁠Vanta helps you win trust, close deals, and stay secure—faster and with less effort⁠⁠⁠⁠. ⁠⁠⁠Find out how increased security leads to more customers by going to Vanta⁠⁠⁠. Tell them David from Founders sent you and you'll get $1000 off. https://vanta.com/founders

Sam was born in the Netherlands, where his father was working at the time, but he grew up mostly in Marlow, Oklahoma, a town with a population just under 5,000. Sam's dad worked for an oil and gas company. Sam was gifted with intelligence and was his high school's valedictorian. From an early age, he loved numbers. He loved math. He was fascinated by the power of exponential growth. At the University of Oklahoma, he majored in finance.

He loved sports. He briefly considered becoming a coach. But if you had asked him at the time, Sam probably would have told you he wanted to become the CEO of an industrial company or something like that. After his freshman year, he applied for an internship at Conoco. He was invited in for an interview, and it was all going well until the interviewer asked Sam where he imagined he would be in five years. Sam was honest. He said he figured he would go to business school. The interviewer was like, what?

You don't want to work at Conoco in five years? And Sam said, no, definitely not. I'm not interested in that. Instead, he interned in the accounting group of Ernst & Young, which happened to be the world leader in providing third-party opinions on the purchase of professional sports teams, giving Sam some early exposure to the world of sports business. After he graduated, Sam was offered a job at Bain Capital. He was the first University of Oklahoma student ever hired by Bain. He enjoyed the work at Bain. It was long hours of rigorous analytical work.

He liked to bring large amounts of data to important decisions. About 18 months into his time at Bain, Sam was at lunch with some other young analysts and two men he considered mentors. The two older men went around the room asking the young analysts. If you could do anything, any job in the world, what would you do? Most of the answers are something along the lines of private equity or CEO. When they got to Sam, he just said, sports GM.

It was the first time he verbalized this idea, but it had been forming in his mind for a while. I remember they laughed at me. It made me so mad, Sam said. At the time Sam said this, almost nobody was bringing the tools of data analytics into the world of professional sports. Then in 2002, the Boston Red Sox hired Theo Epstein, an espoused fan of advanced data analytics as the team's general manager, making the 28-year-old Epstein the youngest GM in baseball history. As Sam was thinking about all of this, the author Michael Lewis published the book Moneyball, which is a look inside the innovative approach of Oklahoma. Athletics General Manager Billy Bean to assemble a competitive baseball team on a small budget. Sam read Moneyball in two days. He loved everything about it. He could not stop thinking about it. Sam decided he was going to quit his lucrative job at Bain and start working towards his dream of becoming a general manager. When he told his parents, they confessed that they thought he was crazy. At this time in every meeting Sam had, he would give his one-minute spiel about wanting to disrupt

professional sports by using data to make better decisions. In all these meetings, you could just see their eyes roll, Sam said. And so at this time, Sam starts going to business school at Stanford. At Stanford Graduate School of Business, Sam was able to take a sports management class for the first time. He also reached out to Perug Marathoth, the former Bain analyst who was already working with the 49ers. Sam had never met him before, but told him in an email that he had heard of him, that he thought

his path was interesting, and that he'd been thinking a lot about this and would love to ask him some questions. Parag agreed to meet. We went and ate burritos across the street from Stanford, Sam told me, and I didn't ask him 20 questions. I asked him 200. While attending Stanford, Sam also met with Billy Bean, the A's general manager at the center of Moneyball. He spent time with Michael Lewis. During his first year at Stanford, Sam also sent both emails and physical letters to NFL franchises all over the country offering to work as an unpaid intern in the front office. He suggested that he could bring a new way of thinking about value in the salary cap era. His pitch was simple.

I can help you. You have a limited pile of chips and you need to turn it into as many wins as you can. I can help you reduce risk and boost return or both. I'll be in your town. We should talk. When spring break came around, most of his fellow students went to places like Aruba or Cancun. But Sam was focused on his goal.

Instead of a trip to the beach, he went on what he calls a road show on Southwest Airlines. He visited five or six different football teams that week, mostly to introduce himself. I was just trying to get a foot in the door, Sam said. One of those teams was the Houston Texans. Sam was invited to intern at the team's front office. The initial internship lasted eight weeks, but the team asked Sam to stick around during his second year of business school, which meant Sam had to fly back and forth from Palo Alto to Houston several times a week.

But Sam was willing to take every chance to be in the building. He asked questions as often as he could without burdening anyone. In most meetings, he didn't say anything at all. I've had a few meetings, a few conversations with something that were like that. He spent most, I'm talking about Sam Hinky, by the way, which I'll get you in one second. He spent most of his time building a software tool for the draft that could help the team evaluate each player's relative value in an effort to maximize return on draft day. With ample data, Sam could explain why a mid-second round draft pick is often half as valuable as a first-round pick, but at 10% of the cost.

But the coaches were all set in their ways and resisted any new approach to personnel, especially from a baby-faced 26-year-old kid from Stanford. Sam realized that succeeding in this career would involve not just analysis, but also earning the right to influence these stakeholders in the team.

This is what he said. Earning the right to get them to listen, to make good arguments, to realize the facts are on the side, and that it is in your best interest to do this for this particular goal. After he graduated Stanford, Sam had a two-hour conversation with Les Alexander, who owned the Houston Rockets NBA franchise at the time.

They talked about how data could be used to make better basketball decisions. Les was a bond trader in the 1980s. So when Sam talked about reducing risk and boosting returns, Les understood immediately. At just 27 years old, he was hired as a special assistant to the general manager. Sam and his wife moved to Houston and slept on an inflatable mattress while Sam worked from 6 a.m. until midnight every day. Within a year, Les Alexander hired Daryl Morey as the team's assistant GM. Daryl shared Sam's analytical philosophy.

A year later, Daryl was promoted to general manager, making the Rockets the first NBA franchise to hire a GM dedicated to integrating advanced statistical analysis. Sam was promoted to vice president, making him the youngest VP in the league. Together, Daryl and Sam built the best basketball sports analytics department in the country. A few years later, Sam was invited to interview for the general manager job of the team. the Philadelphia 76ers. The conversation did not go well. We could not get on the same page in a bunch of ways, Sam told me, and I was aggressive about it in a bunch of ways that surprised them. And so I told them I couldn't come and I didn't. Sam decided to stay in Houston for another

year, but he made a few predictions for what would happen that year in Philadelphia, most of which came true. Impressed, the owners of the 76ers came knocking again. So in 2013, at the age of 35, almost exactly 10 years from the moment he told his parents he wanted to be a GM, Sam Hinky, was hired as the general manager of the Philadelphia 76ers. Sam's tenure in Philadelphia was complicated. Sam's time and his dream job was covered extensively in the media. He eventually left. So what do you do if you finally have your dream job and then lose it? Sam knew when he started his journey that a job as a general manager of a sports franchise could be tenuous. He knew that there was some personal risk involved with his rebuilding plan,

and he knew that he needed to take some time to think about what he wanted to do next. He moved his family back to the Bay Area and started teaching a few courses at Stanford. He tells his students, you have two ears and one mouth. Use them in that proportion. That is the most hinky thing to say. And I'm sure he has said that to me multiple times. Sam also used this time to start his pathway towards a second dream job. And knowing Sam pretty well, this job is way more suited for who he is as a person.

In 2020, Sam launched his own VC firm called 87 Capital. The name comes from a key moment in Robert Caro's Means of Ascent, which recounts Lyndon Johnson's 1948 Senate election victory, which he won by a margin of only 87 votes. I'm going to put the book down for one second. A few years ago, Sam was interviewed by my friend Patrick on his podcast, Invest Like the Best. And in that, he gave a great description of why he named his business 87 Capital. The description is only two sentences, but it's very deep.

the name 87 capital is from means of assent. The Years of Lyndon Johnson by Robert Carroll. These are the two sentences. One candidate wins by 87 votes and gets the presidency. The other candidate lost by 87 votes, but effectively wins back his life's work and his family. Back to the book. I've had the pleasure of knowing Sam for almost a decade now. He is one of the smartest people I know.

Sam has been thoughtful and methodical at every stage. Yes, for sure. That's exactly how he is. He's earnest and direct. Yes, he is. is he gives back yes he teaches he mentors yes he's played this role in my life he wants to help fellow dreamers and he has never stopped learning he is a voracious reader he loves working with the people he works with now this is a quote from sam i'm investing money on behalf of other people i like them i like

them a lot and that is meaningful in ways that i wouldn't have guessed if one of them calls me i'm excited to talk i know our conversations will be fun and generative and i didn't always have that with the people I worked for before. This is why I said this is actually his true dream job. Sam belongs in a world with infinite winds. I am surrounded by people that are really bright and really curious, and I'm curious about them. That is an excerpt from the book and the talk.

I'm going to talk to you about today, which is running down a dream, how to thrive in a career you actually love. It is written by Bill Gurley. If you've been listening to Founders for a long time, you know I haven't shut up for many years. Probably like half a decade ago, I randomly discovered this talk on YouTube. The title of the talk is slightly different in the book. It's running down a dream, how to succeed and thrive in a career you love. It's this talk from 2018 that Bill Gurley was giving to a bunch of MBA students.

I've said it multiple times. I think it's one of the best talks on YouTube. The reason I want to start there is because I literally have personally used ideas that I discovered in this talk to build this podcast. It is amazing how things can come full circle on your life. In the talk and in the book, Bill Gurley profiles a bunch of people. One of them is Sam Hinky, who as I am using, the ideas from this talk to build the podcast and to make it more valuable for people to listen to, Sam discovers the podcast and we've built a relationship over the last several years.

I consider him a close friend and kind of like an older brother to me. And so when I was thinking about starting this episode, I have to start here because it's all connected. And so what I want to do is I want to run down my notes. Most of the notes I'm going to read to you now are actually from the talk. The book is an expansion of that. And there's some people added to the book that are not in the talk. So I'd recommend buying the book and watching the video.

And I think Bill does a great job. job of really bucketing everything in five main ideas. So I want to cover three people first. So Bill Gurley is studying three people that get to the top of their profession in vastly different domains at different points in history. And he says, I was inspired after studying the stories of three people that you might call luminaries. And I noticed an overlap pattern amongst them. And so then he breaks down who these people are and what they did to run down a dream. And first, he talks about why this is important. A dream job means you should chase a career where you have an immense passion. Immense passion is one of the most important phrases that Bill uses over and over again.

His friend and partner says life is a use it or lose it proposition. Most people only take one career path, but if you've got only one shot, why not do what makes you happy? And so then he starts running through this list of three people. The first one is a legendary college basketball coach, Bobby Knight. And really what sticks out is just how bad do you want it? Like how bad do you actually want to do this and what lengths are you willing to do and are you willing to go to to actually build a life and career that you love. Before we get back into the story, I want to tell you one of my favorite quotes I've ever read in any biography says, surround yourself with the smartest people you can find.

When you see such a person, do all you can to get them on board. That extends your reach and terrific people are usually fun to work with. That reminded me of Jeff Bezos. From day one in his very first shareholder letter, Jeff would emphasize the importance of having the very best team. He said, setting the bar high in our approach to hiring has been and will continue to be the single most important element of Amazon's success. Jeff would tell you that you have to be.

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to learn how they can help your business save time and money today. That is ramp.com. And so in Bobby Knight's case, he becomes an assistant coach, basketball coach, after he graduates college. But this is what Bill says. From my point of view, it isn't what happened inside the four walls of the gym where they practiced every day. That was most important. Instead, it's what he did outside.

In the first five years of his coaching career, he befriended five of the top basketball minds. And here's just one example of how he was building relationships. For two of these coaches, he went to a coach's luncheon where they knew, where he knew, they were going to be and begged them to let him sit next to him. He would then keep following up and spending time with both of these coaches. He didn't stop there. Then he starts building a relationship with one of the greatest basketball minds at the time, he's getting Pete Newell.

He also intentionally built relationships with other coaches, not just basketball coaches. He became friends with the University of Michigan football coach. He meets a young Bill Parcells and studies him. He becomes friends with and studies the swimming coach at Indiana University. At age 31, Bobby Knight becomes the head coach. in Indiana University. Five years later, they went undefeated, both in the regular season and postseason, and won the national championship.

That has never been repeated since in over four decades. His career in Indiana, he accomplished a lot. Three national championships, four Coach of the Year awards, 11 big 10 titles. When he retired, he had 902 victories. He had the most wins of any coach at the time. Pete Newell, who he sought out as a mentor and somebody learned from, would later induct Bobby Knight into the Hall of Fame. So as a brief overview, we're going to get to how they do this.

I'm just giving you a brief overview of the first three people. And then we'll dive into what I think is the most interesting part of the talk in the book, which is essentially like this blueprint almost of like how to run down a dream. So the next person is Bob Dylan. Bob loves music from an early age. He gets his first guitar when he's 10 years old. When he's a little older, he falls in love with folk music. Over the course of eight or nine months, he studied every folk album he could.

He didn't have any money, so at the time he'd walk into the record store and listen in a booth. He would do that for hours and hours and hours. He became friends with other people that also liked folk music, but that had money. He would go to their house and listen to their entire record collection. And then he does something, which Bill says is probably the most ambitious action he's ever heard of somebody that was trying to pursue their dream job. He hitchhiked from Minneapolis to New York City. He had a guitar, a suitcase, and $10. That is a 1,200-mile trip.

If you ask him today why he did it, he would say he was chasing the performers. He was listening to them in Minnesota, but the performers he was listening to were in New York City and he wanted to see them. And there was really one person that he wanted to see, which is Woody Guthrie. Woody Guthrie had become his hero. I read Bob Dylan's autobiography, which is excellent.

I did an episode on, it's episode 259, if you ever want to listen to it. Bob Dylan talks about in that book that he devoured Woody Guthrie's biography. So he finds Woody, he builds a relationship with him, and then Bob Dylan is hanging out at the epicenter for what he wants to do at the time. I think this is in Greenwich Village,

if I'm not mistaken, in New York City. It was the epicenter of folk music. music at the time. So he would sit in all these venues for hours upon hours and just study what other artists were doing. Years later, one of the artists would say he could perform any one of our songs like us. He was able to make a complete accurate copy. He was studying, studying, studying, studying, studying. He eventually gets signed. He reaches his first album. It does okay. But it's his second album that really makes him a star. In 1963, he released a free will and Bob Dylan. Since he started, he sold over 100 million records. He's won 11 Grammys. He won an Oscar and an

Emmy. He's inducted to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He won a Medal of Freedom Award, and he won a Nobel Prize in literature. And then the third person that Bill was studying was Danny Meyer. I actually did an episode on Danny's fantastic autobiography. It's like probably nine years ago. It's episode 20. So Danny grew up loving food, loving restaurants. He was a complete obsessive. But it took him a while to make the connection that he should just work in the field that he was intensely interested in. And so at the time, he's working for this company called Checkpoint. They would manufacture those things if you ever go in like a store and they have the things they attach to clothes, so you can't steal them. And he was making incredible amounts of money.

I think at the time it was like $125,000 a year. I think inflation justice would be like, you know, $400,000 a year. And he has this idea that he's going to go to law school, even though he's not interested in it at all. And the night before he's going to take the LSAT, he goes out to eat with his uncle, his aunt, and his grandmother. And he's talking about it. He said, I'm going to take the LSAT, become a lawyer. And his uncle replied, well, you just stop it. Why don't you go open a restaurant?

You know that's what you're supposed to do. Danny says his comment by his uncle, caught him off guard, but it woke him up. He wakes up the next day, takes the LSAT. but never applies to a single school. He then quits his job as a salesman where he's making all this money and then goes works in a restaurant for one-tenth of the salary.

He'd work in the restaurant during the day and then at night he starts taking classes so he takes a wine class. He makes a list of 12 icons that he respects in the restaurant industry. He starts studying them. He creates a notebook for each and every one of them.

What makes them special? What do they do that's unique? He studies their recipes. Then he goes to Europe and works in a restaurant there for free. And one of the restaurants, so he worked at, he actually had to pay $500 a month to work there. So he goes for making $125,000 a year, all the way down to $12,000 a year to now negative $25,000.

He's burning through his savings. But at every place he goes, he studies and watches every single thing that's going on. He watches the chef. He watches the recipes. He goes with them on sourcing trips to see how they pick out their food. He takes tons of notes. He studies the decor inside the restaurant. He studies the wine list inside the restaurant.

He gets back to the United States, spends another six or seven months searching over 100 locations to find the very best location to launch his first restaurant. He is 27 years old when he opens Union Square Cafe in New York City. And Bill says, I love this quote from Danny. I spent nearly two years doing the best work ever as a student.

Think about what he's saying. Danny's most proud of the studying he did on his own, not the setting he did in college. He viewed this as the best work he had ever done as a student. Danny would go on to launch 16 high-end restaurants in New York City. Four have won Michelin Stars. Several years after that, he found Shake Shack, which is now a multi-billion dollar public company.

And so now Bill does an incredible job of essentially tying everything together over these five guidelines. This is really the heart of what I want to talk to you about. And real quick, before we get back into this incredible book, this incredible talk, I need to tell you about Vanta. Vanta, Vanta, Vanta. Vanta helps your company prove you secure so more customers will use your product or service.

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That is vanta.com forward slash founders. So he says, I'd read all these stories independently, notice there was a similar strain that was running through each and every one of the stories. There are five major strains. Number one, find your passion. My first piece of advice would be to find your passion. Pick a profession in which you have a deep personal interest. There is nothing that's going to make you more successful than if you love doing what you're doing.

You're going to work harder than anyone else at it because it doesn't feel like work. It's going to feel like fun. I think this is the most important decision you could possibly make in a career. Make sure you have an immense, there's that word again, an immense passion for what you're doing. This should be your personal passion, not your parents, not your sister. now your family. It needs to be something that you're doing on your own. Do not make this decision based on status and compensation.

There are a lot of high profile careers that make a lot of money and they are generally perceived to be areas where successful people go. If you run at those things and don't have a passion for them, you're going to burn out. And this is one of my favorite things. This is so, so, so true. And everybody talked to, you cannot fake passion.

Someone else that really loves that job will outrun you. Someone else has a deep passion. for whatever career path you're going down, and they're going to smoke you if you don't have it yourself. Here's an example of what you do when you have this just immense, deep passion. Bill starts to quote Bobby Knight. Bobby Knight says, the key is not the will to win.

Everybody has that. It is the will to prepare to win that is important. Everybody has the will to win. What people don't have is the will to practice. This is a test of whether or not you're actually pursuing your dream job. So whatever you would consider studying for your work or your practice for your work. Do you actually enjoy that part? Do you enjoy the preparation? Everybody enjoys winning. Do you enjoy the preparation? Number two, hone your craft. Again, I've just, I think it's obviously

if you've listened to a bunch of these episodes, like, I just use a bunch of these ideas. I'm obviously extremely passionate about history, reading, biographies, podcasts, entrepreneurship. Those are my main passions. Founders just sits at the intersection. If you had a Venn diagram, founders just sit right inside of that. This is another hugely important thing. Hone your craft. hone your craft constantly. It's extremely important to be obsessive about understanding everything you possibly can about your craft.

So that's number two. Hone your craft. This is so good. I think about this quote all time and a half years. Consider it an obligation. Hold yourself accountable. Keep learning over time.

Study the history and know the pioneers. How many times have you and I have the conversations? Is there a single person we've profiled on the podcast so far that got to the top of their profession that didn't study and learn from the great people that came before them? Zero. Nobody does that.

It is the bedrock found in the Swipe. It is the bedrock foundation for what you're going to build upon. and it would help you in networking that you're able to talk the language of the people that came before you. Strive to know more than anyone else about your particular craft. He's not, this is really important.

He's not saying you have to be the smartest person. You don't have to be the most brilliant. You just have to collect more information. It is quite doable to be the most knowledgeable. It is possible to gather more information than somebody else. And so here's a few example of collecting more information. One of the pieces of advice he has is like, you know, depending on what you're doing,

you might want to go to the epicenter where it is. In Bobby Knight's case, he goes and travels and finds the coaches. And so he actually talks about this. He goes in 1972, I went to Pete Newell's house. And I sat down in the middle of the floor with a stack of three by five cards that he used to diagram each separate option. So he's filling out 74 cards on all these different plays. And he says, hey, Pete, will you come through these, like work through these with me? And Pete did. And they both learned from it. For Bob Dylan, he would call himself a musical expeditionary. And so Bill actually goes and looks up, what's the definition of an expeditionary? An expedition

is to travel for scientific research or exploration. That's what Bob Dylan was doing. There was no one who knew more about folk music than Bob Dylan did when he broke out. He knew more than anybody else. And again, he did that by collecting more information. Danny Meyer from his book, Setting the Table, says the same thing. He's going to set up this restaurant in New York City. It's a barbecue place.

This is what he does before. He goes to Texas and eats at every single barbecue restaurant he can find. He studies what he calls are the elements of barbecue. ribs, brisket, pulled pork, chicken, colesaw, beans, etc. Then he takes a road trip through North Carolina. And he says during this road trip, I tasted 14 variations of chopped pork, each defined by subtle and dramatic differences in texture, the degree and type of smoke used,

the amount of tomato and vinegar in the sauce, how much heat was applied to the meat, and how, this is crazy, how well or how much or how little crackling got chopped up and tossed in. That is the level of detail that Danny thinks about for food. That is what it means to study, to hone your craft. You understand more about it than anyone else.

And then he ends this section, which again, with a quote I've been thinking about forever, and I try to apply myself. Information's freely available. That's the good news. The bad news is that you now have zero excuse for not being the most knowledgeable person in any subject you want.

Zero excuse, immense passion. Hold yourself accountable. These are things that just, at least they're just locked into my brain. I like things that are simple but not easy. These are very simple ideas, but they're obviously not easy to do because so few people do it. That's why they're valuable. Idea number three, develop mentors in your field.

Take every chance you can to meet people that are known for success in the field that you've chosen. And again, he used that example. How important is this? Bob Dylan starts with a guitar, $10 and his thumb, and he hitchhikes to New York City. 1,200 miles just to get this done. When you meet these people, treat them with their respect, learn from them, document what you hear, and share it with others. Ask them all the questions you can. Try to get the mentors interested in your own development.

Send them notes. Tell them when you use their advice. Then you use their device to be successful. Send them gifts when you've had accomplishments. Get them bought into you. Never stop pursuing mentors even after you're wildly successful. This is advice to be used not just at the beginning of your career, but all the way through it. And so Bill gives an example.

Bill's an investor, venture capitalist in his day job. He says, I had a remarkable fortune this year in my 20th year's investor to meet Stan Drucken Miller and Howard Marks. There are two people I've admired for a very long time. time. I read everything that they wrote. I got to sit down with both them for a couple hours and talk about investing. It was awesome. The things that they pushed me on changed some of the actions that I take today in my work. Number four, embrace peer relationships in your field. Develop deep relationship with peers that are on the same journey as you. Have discussions and debates about what defines greatness in the field. Don't be afraid to argue passionately. This is one thing I wish someone had told me when I got my

MBA. Everybody said, network, network, network. And I thought it was a social activity. I thought they were telling me, oh, you need to develop your social skills and that they want me to randomly talk to people I have no similar interest with. What I've come to realize is, no, it's not about that. It's about connecting with people that you have the most overlap with because you're able to help each other along the way along the journey. So my entire life, if I'm not spending time with founders, I'm talking to other podcasters.

I have literally flown across, got on a plane and flown across the country just to have lunch or dinner with somebody else that does the same thing that I do, just to learn from them. Embrace peer relationships in your field. and then we do i have a network of podcasters that i'm friends with that have built relationships and this is exactly what we do what he says next always share best practices and don't worry about any proprietary knowledge it is not a zero-sum game it's just a good trade it's just smart if you get caught up and worrying about it you're going to fail in advance it's so important the activity

of sharing of mentors and peers will lead to many positive things that will hope you go up celebrate your peers accomplishments as if they were your own and peers don't need to be in your field. So he gives the example, Bobby Knight sat down and developed a peer relationship with a swimming coach. And he gained knowledge from that relationship that he used to coach basketball. And then number five is always be gracious and pay it forward. I don't think this is exactly what Bill Gurley means in this section, but something that I thought about and really kind of motivated me and changed my perspective on this. I was listening to a podcast one time and this guy said, you know, everybody knows this idea of like being a go-getter. You're chasing after something. You have a

goal and you're getting after it. But he says he tries to be a go-giver. And he noticed something that the more service he put onto the world, the more he did for other people, the more products he made that made other people's lives better, the more that came back to him automatically. And I think this is really important. He says, always give the majority of the credit to the mentors and peers that helps you along the way. It's the right thing to do and it keeps you from being an asshole when you're successful. Send letters, send gifts. Anytime you accomplish something in your career, take the time to send messages back to the people that helped you. Eventually, you have to pay this back. Become the mentor for others that are coming up the ladder. And so Bobby Knight talks

about learning this from Pete Newell. He says when Pete Newell represented to me in this case was a responsibility a teacher has to share with others. I never held anything back at clinics or in conversations with fellow coaches, especially the young ones. And he gives an example. Shortly after one of his sessions with Pete Newell and the next year, Indiana is playing one of Pete's teams. They end up in a tournament together.

Bobby uses the stuff that Pete taught him and beat Pete on the field. He recalled that notion in his book and he said, you know, if Pete was willing to do that for me, I've got to do that for everyone else. And it's beautiful how all this connects because one of the people he did this for was a young coach K. and I would say his name, but I can't pronounce Coach Kay's last name. Bobby Knight mentored Coach Kay, and eventually Coach Kay passes Bobby Knight on the all-time's career wins list. And when Coach Kay was getting inducted into the Hall of Fame, he asked Bobby Knight to induct him.

And so Danny Meyer has a great quote from his book about this. I am convinced that you get what you give and you get more by giving more. Generosity of spirit and a generous approach to problem solving are with few exceptions is the most effective way to earn lasting goodwill for your business. And then Bill does a great job tying us together. In the conclusion, I don't think a single one of these people started what they're doing for money. In each and every story, they were chasing a passion and a dream that allowed them to study. Go back to what Bobby Knight said about needing the will to practice.

They did this on their own. Danny Meyer uses a phrase in his book called professional research. It is an interesting phrase because most of us think about the studying and the research we do around a curriculum and a teacher. yet it is what you do on your own that is most important. Do you go home at night and study to improve your own skill set? Most people don't. I think that's interesting. And so the list is, number one, pick a career about which you have an immense passion.

Number two, be obsessive about learning in your field. Number three, develop mentors in your field. Number four, embrace peer relationships in your field. And number five, always be gracious and pay it forward. And Bill says, I stole the title of this speech from Tom Petty. who was once asked what advice he'd have for people if he were giving it. Run down a dream.