Founders - A conversation with David and Ben from the Acquired podcast

Episode Date: March 29, 2023

David Rosenthal and Ben Gilbert — of the Acquired podcast — invited me to San Francisco for a discussion on our mutual obsession: spending every waking hour studying the history of entrepreneurship and sharing those lessons on our podcasts. ----Follow Acquired in your podcast player here or at Acquired.fm This episode is brought to you by: Tiny: Tiny is the easiest way to sell your business. Tiny provides quick and straightforward exits for Founders. Get in touch with Tiny by emailing [e-mail]. [3:00] David’s time with Charlie Munger[5:30] Henry Flagler after Standard Oil[8:30] What makes a great biography, and how to capture all sides of complex characters?[11:00] Studying history is a form of leverage to achieve success[13:00] How do we figure out what the true story is for an episode we're doing?[20:30] Silicon Valley should focus more on durability than growth[21:30] How David got into reading biographies and podcasting[25:40] What were each of their influences before starting Acquired and Founders?[35:30] How to suck less over time[37:30] What motivates, Ben, David, and David to get better?[45:00] Dead ends: business model changes, paid podcasts, changing the name to “Adapting”, and Senra's “Autotelic”[51:30] “You’re not advertising to a standing army, you’re advertising to a moving parade”[56:00] Comparison of podcasting business models[1:00:10] Senra’s insane Readwise "healthy twitter" habit[1:04:30] Is it possible for the ultra-wealthy not to mess up their kids?[1:14:30] The fleeting moments you get to spend with your kids[1:17:00] The value of building relationships with best-in-class peers[1:19:30] How the book publishing industry works[1:28:45] How to differentiate yourself as an investor in 2023?[1:38:30] The greatest historical examples as content marketing[2:02:00] The best businesses are cults (and Senra starts one on the episode)[2:07:00] Senra gives feedback to Ben and David on Acquired episode format[2:15:30] Steve Jobs’ 1997 product matrix[2:17:00] The moral imperative to market products that help people[2:23:00] Ray Kroc and Steve Jobs: deeply flawed founders[2:23:30] The founders we idolize are world-builders[2:28:00] When yachts and jets are underpriced assets[2:32:00] How to compete when money is cheap vs. when there are real interest rates[2:39:30] When Ben and David have fixed broken episodes in post-production[2:44:30] Why masters of craft are so interesting to study[2:45:30] Should you listen to advice?[2:51:00] David’s first job detailing cars[2:52:30] The Cuban experience immigrating to Miami[3:01:00] College entrepreneurship programs[3:04:00] Ben’s experience learning UNIX as a kid[3:08:30] David remembers Tim Ferriss guest lecturing in collegeIf you have scrolled this far and still haven't followed Acquired in your podcast player please do so here!  ----Founders Notes gives you the ability to tap into the collective knowledge of history's greatest entrepreneurs on demand. Use it to supplement the decisions you make in your work.  Get access to Founders Notes here. ----“I have listened to every episode released and look forward to every episode that comes out. The only criticism I would have is that after each podcast I usually want to buy the book because I am interested so my poor wallet suffers. ” — GarethBe like Gareth. Buy a book: All the books featured on Founders Podcast

So I'm about to do something that I've never done before. I've been working on this podcast for over six years, read over 300 biographies of history's greatest entrepreneurs, well over 100,000 pages. And in that entire time, you have never heard another voice on this feed besides my own. But I want to make sure you don't miss this conversation with David and Ben from the Acquired podcast. So right after my dinner with Charlie Munger, I flew directly from Los Angeles to San Francisco because David and Ben very graciously invited me to be a guest on their world-class podcast. What you're about to hear is a three-hour long conversation between three people that are so obsessed with studying the history of entrepreneurship that they're dedicating, it's their life's work,

they're dedicating almost every waking hour to do so, to finding great ideas from the past and then sharing those ideas on our podcasts so future generations of entrepreneurs, founders, and investors can benefit. And as you already know, I've been obsessed with David Ogilvie ever since I was reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. And Warren Buffett said that David Ogilvie was a genius. I then went and found every single book that he ever wrote or was written about him and read it. And there's a line in one of the biographies of David Ogilvie that says, David Ogilvie was building his first class business in a first class way. Ben and David of Acquired are doing the exact same thing.

I believe that Acquired and Founders are perfect complements to one another. I focus on the founder, the actual individual and the person through biographies. They do these hours long, really in-depth company the person through biographies. They do these hours-long, really in-depth company histories that are just absolutely excellent. If you do not already follow Acquired in your favorite podcast player, please do so right now and start with their episode on the history of LVMH. It is one of the best episodes that I've ever heard, and I've been obsessed with podcasts for over 13 years now. I would listen to that episode first, but their episode on Walmart is excellent. Their three-part series on Berkshire Hathaway, excellent. Their episode on the NFL, Sequoia Capital, Benchmark, Amazon, the list goes on

and on and on. And regardless of what episode that you choose to listen to, what Acquired and Founders has in common is the fact that we both do an insane amount of research. And we do this so that when you press play, you're guaranteed a good return on the time invested listening to every episode. And one more thing I want to tell you about before we jump into this conversation is the presenting sponsor of this episode is Tiny. Tiny is the easiest way for you to sell your business. They provide straightforward cash exits for founders, and they can do deals of all sizes. In the past, they've bought businesses for as little as a million dollars and some businesses for well over a hundred million dollars.

And as we've learned over the last two episodes, Bernard Arnault is the buyer of choice for family luxury businesses. Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger are the buyer of choice for family businesses of all types. And Tiny is well on their way to being the buyer of choice for founders of businesses worth anywhere from a million to over a hundred million million who want a hassle-free cash exit. If you have a business that you want to sell now or in the future, make sure you email hi at tiny.com first.

I hope you enjoy this conversation, and I hope you follow Acquired in your podcast player like I do. So, David, do you want to tell us who you had dinner with the other night? I had a three-hour dinner with Charlie Munger. That is awesome. Where I could ask him any questions that you want. Well, first of all, I guess we should back up. It's like there's a reason that he's so admired, right, by so many people.

But for me particularly, you get to meet a lot of really interesting people because of the work that we do, right? And so that's like a blessing and something that I know we've had conversations in the past that we deeply appreciate. But Charlie's a different level for me. Like I literally think of him like the wise grandfather I never had. You know, I've met all kinds of people. I don't really get like nervous or starstruck. I was legitimately like shaking the day before. I was like, I cannot believe, I didn't want to tell that many people because like, this is, there's no way this is going to happen. Like, I just. I won't believe it until it actually happens. We do very similar work, right? Where it's like, how many people have spent six, seven years, tens of thousands of hours

reading hundreds of books about the history of entrepreneurship and investing? And then not only reading it, taking notes on it, making a podcast. It's us and Charlie and Warren. Yeah. And so the reason I bring that up is because you think about all the different companies and founders you guys have studied, all the different companies and founders that I've studied, right? And even amongst the rarest group of people, Charlie still stands out.

And the crazy thing is, he's 99, right? And so I get there and we start off in his library, which is the best place for me that you could possibly see. Set the stage more. How big is the library? Like how many books are we talking about? So it's not – so one of his family members was there too. And she's like, oh, this is like nothing.

This is like the front room. Wait until you see the back. Yeah. So it's like – it's similar to like the room we're in. Like, you know, very similar size. And, you know, floor-to-ceiling shelves. And so I'm with a small group of friends. In fact, mutual friends for us.

So the people that set this up for us or for me was Andrew Wilkinson and Chris from Founders of Tiny, who are mutual friends. And so we're sitting there and there's actually a funny thing where it starts out and they know both Warren and Charlie. They've talked to them before. So they go right into it. And then, like, I'm sitting there, and I had this whole list of probably, like, 25 questions. I was going to ask if you, like, prepared in advance. I know you did.

I never got the chance to open my phone. Because I was just sitting there. I was like, I'm looking at him. And he's, you know, very close. Like, you know, maybe a little bit further from me. I feel super disrespectful to, like, take out my phone. Yeah, that too. And I had had you know read

every single book on charlie i watched all of his videos like i've studied this guy forever and so every time he had said hey read this book i go and read the book and then i see a bunch of the books that he has recommended behind him so people are like oh was he as like you expected like they say hey be careful don't meet your heroes right it's like he was unbelievably gracious you know unbelievably like uh i was like hey charlie you mind if i take a look at your bookshelf right he's just like do whatever you want just unbelievably polite still like biting intellect ferocious intelligence at 99 at 99 so we were talking earlier um uh downstairs where the scary thing about Charlie is, I remember asking

a question about Henry Kaiser, this guy that was super famous when Charlie was younger. He built like a hundred companies, built the Hoover Dam. Like he was as famous in his time as like Elon Musk is today, right? But no one knows who he is. And I was asking questions about Charlie in the book and his recall is just insane. So the point where asked him i go how do you know all this charlie he goes i knew his partner and then he starts telling stories about being knowing like having a relationship with henry kaiser's business partner and then all these three hours of just unbelievable stories and then i go charlie like how do you remember all this stuff like do you write like you take notes you reread the books over and over again? He's like, nope. And all I could think of was like, imagine. Wow.

That guy's mind at 99 is still so sharp. I had brought a gift for him because he talks about Rockefeller all the time. I bought him this special edition, centennial edition version of Henry Flagler's biography. Oh, Flagler. So I live in Miami. The guy, Les Sandiford, I think is the author of that book. He is good friends with, there's only like one local bookshop in Miami called Books and Books. And so Les is a local author who's good friends with the owner of that bookstore. So they did a, you can't get this book anywhere else. It's a special edition book. Because Flagler moved to Florida later in life. After the Standard Oil thing. Yeah.

He's got a fascinating story. We can talk about that where he, unbelievably wealthy because of Standard Oil. He's, you know, 50, 60, 70 years old when he's doing this. And he's just like, oh, what am I doing now? I'll build an entire state. When he gets to Miami, Miami is little less than 500 people living in a swamp. Because you can live there there was no ac at the time and so then he builds the the world's first uh railroad over for connecting uh the florida keys he just essentially like you read that book you're like oh humans have no limits other than the ones we put on ourselves and so that's what flagler does he just stretches it and he does some terrible things too where it's like yeah wanted to find a way to divorce his wife so he literally moves to another state because you couldn't be divorced in New York,

bribes the government of Florida. They create the Flagler Law, which allows him to get a divorce. Then he does that, like, I think a few times. I think he's, like, in his 70s. He marries, like, a 30-year-old. Like, so it's not all good. But that guy's like, oh, your rules don't apply to me. Like, I will build whatever I want.

He built infrastructure, hotels, everything else. This is, like, one of the things that i keep learning from founders podcasts and i'm curious if you do it intentionally or if you like try not to do it but like every single time i'm like oh people aren't perfect like none of your heroes are perfect and do you find yourself like because we we run into unacquired a lot we're like it's not as fun to tell stories about terrible people. And so you like don't want to show someone's negative side as much because it doesn't – like it's just – Well, we fall in love with them too when we're doing that. And you're like, wow, they're the most extraordinary person on this one axis to ever live. And we should talk about how they're a flawed person in many ways.

But it's not fun to dwell on. Like you kind of want to like move through that and be like, yep, yep, they were flawed. Here's the next amazing thing that they did. Like, how do you handle that? Like, you know how a normal biography is written, right? It's like way too much family history. Like I want to know some family history. I don't want five generations back. Stop. Like, I don't want to know the origination of their last name. I don't need that. I want to know like- And you're like the most qualified person in the world to critique a biography writing style at this point. So why we're reading it is like,

everyone wants to know the climb, right? It's like, how did you, you guys, I just went through your entire, to get part of the prep for Charlie is listening to all of your Berkshire episodes, right? Where you guys do a fantastic job on this. Cause like the first two is like the young Charlie, the young Warren.

So I would literally, and I've done this forever. It's like, I don't, when you take a Warren Buffett or Ben Franklin or George Washington or anybody that's super famous, when we see them, it's like, oh, who's the Ben Franklin on the $100 bill, right? Or who's Washington on the dollar bill? Or who's Buffett at the meeting in Omaha? It's like, no, no, that's the guy that is enjoying the fruits of the person that actually built the empire. That's the whole, I go and stare at pictures like a freak at like,

of young Charlie Munger when he was like 38 or young Warren Buffett. Right? They were like us. They were young people once. In our Berkshire series, the first,

did we end the first episode without even getting to Berkshire yet? I think we might. You have to. It was just the partnerships. You mentioned it on the Walmart episode

where it's like, everybody says, oh, Sam Walton didn't start Walmart until he was 44. Yeah, but he was doing 25 years of practice and learning. And he wasn't just sitting on his ass. Starting a bunch of stuff that looked an awful lot like Walmart.

Yes, learning from that. And so the – Which is totally like – I mean, aside, but we have no agenda here. That is like I think both an advantage that like we have, all three of us, and like kind of a secret that we have, which is that like we wanted, we did Walmart because we wanted to do Amazon. And so we were like, how do we do Amazon, right? We got to do Walmart first. People want this. Like this is the right way to study things.

I'm glad you brought that up because I think this is why people get a lot of value. And I don't want it to make us about, hey, this is an acquired founder show. The reason that some of the people in our audiences are the most successful people in the world, they're all reading biographies. They're all studying the history of business. I told you guys a few weeks ago I was very lucky to have a two-hour one-on-one lunch with Sam Zell that I didn't think was possible. What I realized in that conversation is like you don't make –

you don't – Sam Zell sold his company for almost $40 billion, right? Yeah. $38 billion, whatever it was. It's like you don't build a company, sell it for $40 billion, and then learn all this. It's like he was doing this since he was young. We were talking in his autobiography. I think my favorite episode of your podcast is the Kobe Bryant episode. Because this is what these guys are doing.

They're like Kobe Bryant. They're watching game tape. They're watching game tape. They're working on the fundamentals from the time they're 12 through the time they die. They don't stop. I think that's what we're listening to acquired and founders is. You're watching game tape of history's greatest entrepreneurs. Sam did this when he was younger. But this ties together where Bill Gurley had a fantastic quote about this, a tweet about this, when all that crypto was going crazy and the run-up and people were getting rich. And he's like, one thing I don't like, and I'm paraphrasing because I wasn't expecting

to talk about this. He's like, I don't like the younger people denigrating the people that came before them. And he's like, he made the point that none of history's greatest entrepreneurs and investors did that. They had the opposite perspective. All of them had idols. You just made the point. You can't understand Jeff Bezos until you study Sam Walton.

You can't understand Sam Walton until you understand JCPenney and Sol Price and all these guys. And even their contemporaries. Like the point that Walton always made was, I don't think my competitors are stupid. I want to go shop my competitors and get all of their very best insights and then bring them into my store. Yeah. 100%. They're learning machines. Yeah.

And so you get to Charlie's going, tying this all back to this, you get to Charlie's bookshelf, and it's just biographies I've never even heard of. And I do this for a living. I do it for a living. I was like, what is this book? And then I started looking. I was like, oh, I'm just taking picture after picture after picture. I was like, I'm ordering every single one.

So we're talking about this idea that the way to get truth is to weave together the tapestry of all of history stories of things that are adjacent to understand like how this opportunity to start some business came to be. And you always have to like, all history is revisionist and all history is biased. And so I think one of the hardest things about making an acquired episode is figuring out like when we're looking at a source, like someone giving an industry talk who works at a company or like a biographer who chose to dedicate you know two years of their life to writing this book after working at newsweek and covering the sector forever is like trying to mentally account

for and discount from whatever bias and perspective they're coming in with to create whatever the source material is that we're using to then incorporate into our version of here's how this thing happened which is that's like i think it's the hardest part about what we do and i'm curious if you ever think about that i think about all the time because people are like oh like survivorship bias or revisionist history and everything else it's like here's the problem like we humans don't see things as they are we see them as we are so like we could have this super long conversation between the three of us right now then go into the room and write down you know what just occurred and every single version is going to be different because it's viewed through

all of our experience the way we think the the words we use and so what i'm looking at is like when i'm reading about sam walton right it's just like uh the the story we both hit on all the podcasts because i've done a bunch of podcasts on sam, where it's like the guy's pissed off. He's driving from store to store in these mountain roads taking forever. So he buys the plane, and he realizes, oh, this is a massive advantage because I'm doing something my competitors aren't. I'm flying over, and you guys mentioned it too, which I thought was hilarious. Sideways.

And then he just lands. He's like, who owns that? Let me land. And then he buys for action. So he's like, we're going to negotiate right now. I want to buy it from you. And so my point is, OK, yes, yes that most likely occurred but what is the idea behind that it's do you can have an advantage by doing something your competitors are not doing

right yeah um and it just ties together what you're what you just said is like they all learn from somebody else when we're reading these books and listening to these podcasts like what's the idea i can use in my life we're not building the next walmart there's no way if we read titan that we could tell did this actually happen right i don't know but i'm looking for the ideas behind it not oh i can i'm going to verify for every single word in this book that's ridiculous right and that the truth is always it is always the case that the a clean narrative is grafted onto a fact pattern and it's like okay well what i care about is the lessons i can learn from the

clean narrative not it does the fact pattern if if you had all the facts in totality did it necessarily mean that it you know this was premeditated it's like whether it's premeditated or not yeah you know the facts are the facts and like maybe i can duplicate in a different realm for what we do i mean on i think on acquired more than you but especially because you will do multiple episodes of different books on the same people. And multiple episodes on the same book. Yeah, and multiple episodes on the same book. Your format is better.

We're doing a narrative weave. We're shooting the moon a little bit more in this respect. Your format lends itself to, so if anyone is listening, Founders is more about, hey, I just read this book and I want to tell you what I learned from this book. And it's always a biography. And sometimes you'll do five different biographies on Edwin Land. And if Acquired was going to do Polaroid, we would do Polaroid. The episode would be Polaroid. We would do one.

Maybe it would be Polaroid part one and part two. Or maybe at some point we'd have someone on to, you know, in addition to our one canonical episode. But like we would be shooting the moon on like let's make sure that we get the Polaroid story as right. It's almost like how do we find the correct average of all of the other stories to create the canonical version? I wasn't expecting to quote Bill Gurley two times so far. But that fantastic talk he gave, which to me is the best talk for entrepreneurs. I wasn't expecting to quote Bill Gurley two times so far. Because now you know this is going to be a good episode. That fantastic talk he gave, which to me is the best talk for entrepreneurs and investors on YouTube. It's called Running Down a Dream, How to Survive and Thrive in a Career You Love.

And he says this. Listen, in the age of the internet, you don't have to be the smartest person. Charlie Munger, after talking to him, whatever mind that dude has, I don't have that. And I'm cool with that. I could not imagine trying to compete against that guy 40 years ago. Like, he would destroy me, right? He's got a super mind that I don't have. But what Bill says is like, you don't have to be the smartest person, but you can collect the most information. And he holds you to a high standard in that talk. Bill's like, listen, in the age of the internet, all the information you possibly need, right,

is right at your fingertips. You have no excuse not to do this. And so he gives the example of if you want to be a domain expert in whatever you're doing, like within two years of intense study, if you're doing that and you're focused on it, it's like you're going to get to the point where like you know more than maybe anybody else. And so that's my whole thing was like when you talk to, you've never met a founder or an entrepreneur that's like kind of into entrepreneurship. It's like, no, it's our lives. So, of course, the reason why so many of them listen to both of our shows, right, it's because they're building machines where they literally can turn knowledge into profit, right? I've become close friends with the guy through the podcast.

He's a young kid. I don't mean to call him a kid. He's not a kid. But he's a lot younger than I am. And he's like 28 years old. And we were on the phone the other day because he had a very serious offer for a company he owns like 95% of, and they were going to give him $100 million, right? He winds up saying no to it. But the point is, when you talk to him, he's listened to all the episodes, he's read like 60 of the books. He'll text me a picture of like, he won't even tell me what the book, and I'm like,

I'm pretty sure I read that. Like he's like, oh yeah, it's from this episode. It's like, oh, why? What if he finds one idea in a book, one idea in a podcast, and it gives a 10% improvement on his company? It's a $10 million idea. Yeah. Well, we were talking about this earlier, like this dinner that you have.

It sounds like Charlie is just like a very curiosity driven machine, but we know there's lots of folks that have regular dinners and have groups of people, often geographically dispersed. Why do they do it? Why is it worth their time, their money, their effort? It's that. They get one idea. The leverage that they can get on that is astronomical. Charlie tells a story.

He's like, yeah, I made $400 million from reading Barron's for 50 years. And you're like, what the? What are you talking about, Charlie? And Charlie's like, well. And how do you quantify that? Because he does. So he goes, I read. This isn't something he said at dinner.

I've heard him say it publicly. He's like, I read Barron's all the time for 50 years. I found one idea that I can act on. I made $50 million on that deal. And then I took that $50 million and I gave it to Li Lu. Is that the? Oh, yeah. In Seattle.

I gave that $50 million to Li Lu. And Li Lu turned it into $. I gave that 50 million to Li Lu and Li Lu turned it into $400 million. That's how I made $400 million from reading Barron's. Wow. And listen, I'm not, and this is another thing where I feel like everybody's like, oh, this time is different. This is new. It's like human nature has never changed. It will never change. This time is not different. You're just experiencing, the difference is if you don't study the history of the people that came before you, you're just ignorant and making mistakes that people already saw in the past. Learning from history is a form of leverage. He has billions and billions, or not, yeah, billions and billions of years of collectives like human history. You know,

this guy spent 70 years and there's thousands of them. And like Sam Walton's book, how many, how many people spent 50 years in one industry, in the retail industry, and he distilled it down to the most important. And then you could read it in a week, and then you could listen to Acquire's episodes. You can listen to David's episodes on Sam in addition to that. So the question is then, do you have 90% of Sam's wisdom or do you have 0.1% of Sam's wisdom after? There's no way you have 90%. Right. Because like the time, like the instincts. I was just re-watching Peter Thiel's talk at Y Combinator. He says, competitions for losers.

Oh, yeah. And he goes, one thing that we do in Silicon... I haven't seen this one. It's a classic. One thing we do in Silicon Valley is we overrate, overvalue growth rates and undervalue durability. And he's like, that doesn't make sense for a technology company because all your profits, the vast majority of profits are 20 years in the future. And so if

you're trying to optimize for growth and that over-optimization can cause your company to go out of business, you're never going to collect that. You optimize for durability first, dummy. Like that's to me, like my interpretation of what he's saying, right? Yeah. So you're going to get, you know, 1% probably, maybe 5%. But that's still enormous leverage because you read it in five hours and he took 50 years to accumulate everything. And it's Sam Walton's wisdom. And it's what you do with the idea. I know you've talked about this before, but what was the moment where you're like, I'm going to start this podcast?

It's crazy, right, what you do? You talk to a microphone yourself every week. Yeah. My friend. Not that I think you're crazy. Oh, I definitely am. You are, but in a good way. No, I definitely am nuts, for sure.

And that's going to be, like, we could talk about, did you guys read Jeff Bezos' last shareholder letter before he? Yeah. One of the best lines he has is at the end. He's like, differentiation is survival. And so, like, think about that. Like, how hard. They say, let's say somebody says, damn, I love what Ben and Dave are doing. I'm going to do the exact same thing. They can jump in and try to do that, right?

But you have six years of experience. You have 600 hours out there. You have to counter position against us. Or address a different audience. Exactly. Which, by the way, they definitely should. Every time I talk to somebody who wants to, without fail, I'm always like, you absolutely should do this. Yeah.

And you will, even if you never succeed in terms of any like numerical success or like you will succeed because you are learning like so being a nut job and completely crazy is i think makes you harder to compete with and it's also we're gonna go all over the map here but it's impossible not to be that like think about how seeped you guys are in the same information that i am where it always says oh you're the some of the first of your five friends or whatever right well it's like it's also like what you you know some of your podcasts you guys are in the same information that I am, where it always says, oh, you're the sum of your five friends or whatever, right? Well, it's also like what you, you're the sum of your podcasts you listen to and the books you read. Oh, it's your five friends, including your parasocial relationships.

And so now what happens is like, you mentioned, dude, you only read like one book about him, you'll go crazy. And so what happens is when I'm really interested in somebody, I will, I listen to Bill Gurley. Again, I just take advice from people who are smarter than me. Bill said, go collect everybody, everything you can. Okay, good. I'll do that. This is very, these are simple ideas.

Yeah. And so I'll find somebody that's interesting. I'll read everything about them. And so with Charlie, I have like a little Charlie Munger on my shoulder. I have a little Steve Jobs, a little Edwin Land, a little David Ogilvie, Estee Lauder, Coco Chanel, all these people that have been heroes of mine, James Dyson. And so now I'm presented with a situation like what would they do? And you'll have – if you read and spend – and absorb everything that's out there about these people, like you'll have an idea of like how they would respond. Did you guys ever read Ken Kosienda's book, Creative Selection?

Uh-uh. About the – oh, that's shocking. He worked on the original human interface for the iPhone. So he made the keyboard for when it was still Operation Purple or something. The keyboard. He made Safari before the iPhone. He has this excellent book that I've read like three times called Creative Selection. I think how Apple designed products in the golden age of Steve Jobs might be the subtitle. But he talked about that because he demoed to Steve, right right and you're not going to describe

it to him you're going to demo and you're going to hand it to him and so they iterate you guys already know this they iterate through a series of demos and it's based on steve's taste like he is not oh let's talk about this like nope do this do this that and so ken has a great line in the book where he's like demoing for steve is like asking questions to the oracle delphi except the oracle delphi would like respond with a riddle and he's like no no steve was unbelievably like crystal clear you understood him out of every single person i've ever studied steve jobs is by far the clearest thinker i have ever come across like i just gifted at that charlie is like the oracle and it's crystal clear you are not like you are going to understand what to understand the idea he's trying to get into your brain, for sure.

But my point being is, like, all of the people that we study, they don't denigrate the past. Steve Jobs, the reason I'm so obsessed with Edwin Land, I read in a biography. When Steve was, like, in his 20s, Edwin Land is in, like, 70s, he goes and meets Edwin Land and he goes, visiting Edwin Land was like visiting a shrine. He's like, he is my hero.

More people should try to be like that. And then you guys made the point that Jeff Bezos took a lot of ideas from Sam. Who took a bunch of ideas from Sony too? Steve and Jeff. So you always find these people where you're like, oh, I thought this was a Steve Jobs idea. No. It's an Akio Morita idea. Yeah.

Or an Edwin Land idea. Like when we used to watch the presentations that Steve would give where he's like, oh, we're building at the intersection of technology and liberal arts. He put it up on screen. He ripped that off wholesale. Edwin Land said that exact word. But that's the point. It's like you're never going to find anybody gets to the top of their profession without doing the work like studying the people that came before them and learning from them and admiring them this is a good like sort of personal pivot and it's like i've never asked you in all

the hours we spent it's crazy this is the first time we've met in person yeah like we spent hours and hours and hours on zoom uh how did you like decide that this is what you were going to do with your time on this planet? And what led to this? Okay, so I, you know, our mutual friend Jeremy from Formula of Tiny. I just spent a bunch of hours with him. He was in town. In one sentence, he psychoanalyzed me better than anybody else ever has. He goes, you didn't have any mentors growing up.

So then you took it to this extreme. And he said it much more eloquently than I am. has. He goes, you didn't have any mentors growing up. So you like, you have, then you took it to like this extreme and he said it more, much more eloquently than I am, but he's like, you didn't have any mentors. So I view your career as like the psychopathic, uh, search for like mentors that can help you, you know? And so like to answer your question, it's like, I don't want to go into too much detail here, but, uh, like I've only had one habit my whole life. And that was reading. I was reading for as long as I can remember. My mom passed away from breast cancer a couple years ago, and we didn't have like a lot of money. Like long story, but like I was the first person not only to graduate college, but like high school in my family. Like I came from a family that's like unfortunately both sides of the family, like no education, a lot of like just bad habits.

So I identify with a lot of what Charlie Munger says because he essentially observes bad behavior and then tries to do the opposite, right? So I was just, let me give you an example. I was just up in Canada, actually at an event Andrew Wilkinson was hosting for a bunch of entrepreneurs. Me, Shane Parrish from the Knowledge Project and Farnam Street was up there, Ben Wilson from How to Take Over the World, and we were doing this panel together. And Shane's the moderator and we don't know what we're going to talk about beforehand. And so Shane asked the question, it's like, oh, what did you learn most from your upbringing or something like that, right? And I go, I learned not to do cocaine and to graduate high school.

So that kind of thing, right? And so there was just a bunch of anti-models. I thought about this as I was walking through the tenderloin this morning in San Francisco. And I was like, I should do this walk with my daughter as the best. Like, hey, this is why you don't do drugs. Like, this is the perfect example. Like, you observe bad behavior and then you do the opposite. So long story short, I've always been obsessed with reading.

Like, one of the best things my mom ever did was even if we didn't have money for books, she would take me to the bookstore and just sit there. Like, you know, bookstores are so cool because they just let you read. No one comes here and is like, hey, you've been reading for an hour. Like, you've got to get out of here, you know. And just read and read and read. Was there anybody who, like, introduced you to reading and books? Or you just, like, there was just someone about you. Sounds like his mom.

Yeah, but no, she wasn't a big reader. The only thing she read was the Bible. There was no books in the house when I was younger, ever. So how did you be like, mom, take me to the bookstore? I can't answer that. All I can say is my wife has known me for 15 years, and her thing, what she says is, she likes my family and gets along with them, but she goes, how did that come from that? It sounds like you have a classic like you're the one who made it out story sam hinky our mutual friend actually gave me the way to think about this and it's called the founder of your family right and it's the person that like and i used

to call them and it was a terrible name but generational inflection points because you'd read this in the biography where you have like generation after generation of just not good things happening and then one person just says it stops now that's what rockefeller did rockefeller uh i always think of sam brompton the guy that did um seagram's oh yeah and he's in canada growing up on but like they were so their parents had lost so much money they think they they were jewish and they had to like escape from persecution of russia i can't remember where they came from but they go and they have to start all over and they're in canada and like there's no heating and like they're freezing and like he so he has this like psychopathic drive to change but you that stays with you forever so like once you know he

builds this massive company and literally changes the trajectory of all of his descendants and as his his daughter's an adult and she tells a story in the book where Sam is sitting there in like a mansion by next to a fire like shivering thinking about how embarrassing it was to have to go to school with tighter clothing it's just like that guy's never gonna go back to that and he never never loses it so I just always been a reader. That's the only thing I've ever, like the only one unbroken habit I've always had. And so I just had this idea where like I was obsessed with podcasts forever. I was obsessed with audio before there was such a thing as a podcast.

Like I would listen to talk radio when I was a kid. And at that time, you know, it's not like, there's no on-demand anything. You would listen to sports talk radio, politics talk radio. It's embarrassing there was like this woman that used to be on at night people would write in like advice for love their love life and i'd listen to that just the idea of like there's all this information oh man i used to listen to um coast to coast am with art bell do you ever listen to this like it's when all the other radio programming sort of expires and then you enter the like one in the morning am radio stuff and it was like you know aliens and like tons of paranormal stuff but it was like if you if you listen like you know the

the Cavs game ends I'm from Cleveland and so like then you listen to like the sports post game and then it goes into like the politics hour and if you still can't fall asleep then you're into like aliens and it's like four hours of that stuff do you have a radio in your bedroom oh yeah yeah I'd be able to I don, I imagine my parents probably came and turned it off but like would leave it on while I fell asleep

every night. And then remember, like I remember, so you have the jump up from that and then the AM radio stations would then start streaming

to your browser internet. It still wasn't on demand so if you're not listening at 3 o'clock or 12 like you miss it and then once I saw Wasn't this what

Mark Cuban's company was? His was like broadcasting audio for sports games though I think. I don't actually know. It's kind of funny. It's was? His was like broadcasting audio for sports games though, I think. I don't actually know. It's kind of funny. It's like an era. It's broadcast.com, right? Yeah. And it was competitive with RealPlayer, which also wasn't

on demand. That was just streamed radio. No, the first on demand was, the first time I saw this, I was like, this is insane. Like, especially for people that are like learning machines using Charlie's, where it's like, I can go to, even today, like, you know, learning machines using Charlies, where it's like, I can go to, even today, like they do, you can go to any podcast player, type in whatever you want to learn about, and then you can hear somebody that's usually

spent hundreds of hours teaching you about this stuff. You can also find intellectual, high-quality content more easily now, because all content, because there were a limited number of channels and a limited number of time slots, everything had to be produced for the lowest common denominator. And now you can opt into your niche and find the highest quality content in that niche. Yep. And like the only way to do that before was books. Like there wasn't an audio way to, there wasn't content, there wasn't niche audio content broadly available.

There aren't like several million authors out there. Right. But there's several million podcasters. Right. But you made a good, I think you were getting to a good point. It's like because the business model didn't support that. And so now. And there was no distribution.

And now with podcasting, it's like you guys, you know, I'm sure, I think like 50, I don't ever look at analytics. But I think last time I looked, it was like 50% of my audience was in the United States. But then everywhere. And so I was doing, the early days of Founders. I remember it all changed because I couldn't figure out the business model. So you would do like affiliate. At that time, I remember when I first started. Yeah, you went through a bunch of business models.

Yeah, so when I first started, they were like, hey, you contact like the few podcast advertising networks there were back then. Because you guys started your show in 2016, right? 15. Okay, so I started in 2016. And you contact them. They're like, yeah,, because you guys started your show in 2016, right? 15. Okay, so I started in 2016. And you contact me, like, yeah, we can do ads for your show. You know, you need like 25,000 downloads an episode. And at the time, I'm like, I'll never get there. Like, obviously, we've skyrocketed past that.

But like, that's impossible. It's like as many people as in a basketball arena. Oh, when you start visualizing the audience, it like oh two and a half nfl stadiums show up for every acquired episode like that's an insane yes but do you guys think so do you guys think about that only in in uh adding to the pressure in a good way like it's a good motivator i never think about it really you know what i think about it how my show set up is why i say you and i and i yeah it's like right i like how you treat the audience as like the person you're reading. It's one person.

So like one, and I've done this forever. It's like, it's funny. I remember it's one of my friends that we met up one day and I was like, man, I think I'm going to try to make like a business around the fact that I read so much. And he's like, and he called me like a year, like six months ago, a year ago. He's like, I can't believe you did that. He's like, I thought you were, you were the dumbest thing i ever heard but i just picture him when i started it's like oh the whole idea behind the show was like what if you got to meet up once a week with your friend that reads a lot and he just tells you the stuff that he read that week like interesting ideas and so i was even cross your mind to like try and convince him to do the podcast

with you or somebody else or you're always just like no i'm gonna so one thing one thing we don't have like a bunch of prepared stuff but one thing us three talked about is like hey why don't we talk about like who was your influence on why you do what you do and so i feel the greatest uh podcaster of all time is dan carlin from hardcore history that's like my i think he's like i can't believe what that guy does right you and him are like the only successful uh monologue podcasters like i think it's the hardest thing to do in this medium and i can't i mean there's everyone else either has a guest on or a co-host yeah um well there's another guy that was uh that so i took dan carlin i was like i was obsessed with his i've listened to all his episodes for like years you talked

about falling asleep i did that too but I fell asleep to Dan Carlin. So I'd over and over and over again. To now where I listen to him, I'm like, it's like, it's like. Pavlovian. Yeah, it's like, no, don't wake me. It's not nighttime, bro. Wake up. But there was another one that a friend of mine put me on.

There's this comedian named Bill Burr. He does the Monday morning podcast. He used to do it every Monday. Now he does, I think, Monday and Thursdays, right? He is one of the first podcasters. When he was podcasting his first episodes, at the time, he would call into a number and record, right? And then there was a service that would transform that recording from your phone into an MP3 that you could publish. Download and put on your iPod.

This is way before, like, anything. It's so wild how things have changed. I mean, you know, we're here now in this recording setup that we have here, you know, with thousands of dollars of gear. And, like, we started. I remember when we first started. I don't think you let me do this, but I was like, well, why don't we just talk at the computer and, like, set up QuickTime? Dude, when I listen back to our first few episodes, like Pixar, I'm like we it sounds like we were just talking at the computer yeah well we basically were yeah that's that's when people like i have a lot of psychos that they're like i started number

one i go all the way through i was like oh like please don't yeah if you're gonna if you're gonna do like this is one of the things i wanted to talk about i i used to um because that way at least by the time you get to one, you're a fan. But if you start at one, you're like, oh, these guys just suck. But it's almost like there's great pleasure in hearing something that you think is excellent and fully baked.

And especially when it's been long running, you're like, oh, this has always been immaculate and perfect. And then you get to go see some of the early work and you're like, oh when it's been long running you're like oh this has always been immaculate and perfect and then you get to go see some of the early work and you're like oh it's so you're talking about you want to go you want the early charlie i i get the i can see where the magic was even though they didn't know yet like the it's the same thing the books that you're reading though like sam walton when you tell the story where his his landlord screws him over and he goes he goes goes, I'm not whipped. I found this store.

I'll do it again. Right? Yeah. And it's like, yes, Walmart is a huge success. You guys made the point that there was a great point where it's like, you're never going to think 25 years in the future when there's watermelons and donkey crap on the ground that this is going to be the richest family in the world. Right?

If you add up. And the most standardized form of retail. Yeah. And so you see like, oh, that same guy that became the richest family in the world, right? And the most standardized form of retail. Yeah. And so you see, like, oh, that same guy that became the richest person in the world, that now has a rich family or whatever, it's like he's imperfect too just like I am. And so that is the only benefit of listening to an early acquired or early founder. It's like, oh, you see the improvement. Just like in the books, you see the improvement.

Well, it's fun too. Like, I like going back and listening to some of your old episodes. I get to, like, see your journey, you know? Like, I'm proud of you. Yeah, right. But I've been thinking about that. And I was thinking about, ahead of our conversation here, like, I used to say all the time, people are like, oh, I go back, I listen to the early episodes.

I'm like, no, don't. It's so embarrassing. I actually think, like, we always want to be embarrassed by our last episode. We've just constantly kept, like, every episode every episode, we try and just notch it up. Because we keep picturing the stadium. That's why I think about the stadium, because I think about the pressure of, we've got to do better next time than we did this time. And it's not just filled with Seattle's NFL fans.

It's filled with hundreds of thousands of the smartest people. And this gets to the the psyche, like the deep insecurities that at least I have of like, I want to impress those people. I want those people to think I'm smart. And so I have to produce something unbelievably worthwhile of their time. And the minute that I don't, I'm like literally walking out in front of an NFL stadium full of people that I want to impress. And like, I didn't used to have that pressure, but like once we found content market fit for Acquired with like people that I've always thought highly of, that is the driver now. I think we did do well. There were a couple of years where we kind of drifted. There wasn't that pressure to keep amping the bar. And then-

Right. It's like the 2017 era. Yeah. I think you're never going to be embarrassed about your latest episode at the time we're making this is LVMH. You're never going to be embarrassed about your latest episode at the time we're making this is LVMH. You're never going to be embarrassed about that. That was excellent. And like – It doesn't mean you can't keep improving 10 years from now. No, like I look back and I think like, yes, that's certainly an episode, I don't know how you feel, but like I'm proud of. But I look back, like at the time, like – so we didn't know that was going to be a super popular episode.

Yeah, that was totally unpredictable. It's our – because we didn't know that was going to be a super popular episode. Yeah, that was totally unpredictable. It's our, because we haven't shared this publicly yet, it's our number one episode by a huge margin. 40,000 more people have listened to that episode than the next highest, which was Amazon.com. That's incredible. I probably could have told you. Actually, I was like, David, no one's going to listen to Amazon because everyone already knows this story, which was super wrong. But I either thought, like, no one will listen to this one or, like, this will be our most successful episode. With LVMH, even after we recorded it, I was like, or after we edited it because we had to, like, edit a lot of stuff.

But I was like, this is how much we didn't know. But it's not, like, our best ever. I think it might be my favorite episode of yours. And I heard from a ton of other people how much they liked it. Well, thank you. It's really good. But to the conversation, there's a bunch of stuff that we could have done better in that episode, like a whole bunch.

So I do this all the time where I'll go back and listen to old episodes because people are like, that's weird. You don't listen to a podcast. It's like, no, this is a tool. That's how you get better. This is a tool. Game footage. No, we didn't even try to get better.

I was like, oh, I haven't read that book in like two years. I'll just listen to my episode on it. And it serves as a reminder. It is a tool that's how you're better this is in footage no we didn't even try to get better it's like i was like oh i haven't read that book in like two years i'll just listen to my episode on it and it like it's a tool for me that's how i know it's good for other people right and so i was like and then i'll listen to them like oh wow i forgot that i need to keep that idea in my mind except but i'll hear myself like oh you said that in two paragraphs that could have been one paragraph cut that part that doesn't make sense and so yeah i understand the improvement but what i'm saying is your quality is already super high. Like it can increase and get better. Don't get me wrong, but like, you're never going to be embarrassed. You're just like, oh, I could probably do it 20%, 30% better, which is still excellent from the, the, the, like the level you're at.

So the way that we edit is our editor takes the first pass and he's unbelievably good. And we're so lucky to have him. And then he sends us a rough cut. I upload it to Descript, and then we listen and read while we're listening, word for word, sentence for sentence, and try to cut every unnecessary sentence. And we end up pulling out 20-ish minutes of just fluff. It's just like, okay, we could have been tighter in that point. Is there a way to get tighter in it without re-recording it?

And I think that has dramatically contributed to episode quality because by the time we ship it, neither of us feel that there are extraneous sentences. So I don't know if I'm like that. You're still a one-man show, right? I do everything. No one touches anything. Everything.

Soup to nuts. I'm going to ask you a question, but I also think this is a perfect point to how we became friends and why I'm putting this ask you a question, but I also think like we should – this is a perfect point to like how we became friends and why – like I'm putting this out on my feed and no one – you're going to be the first non-David Senra voices that ever heard on Founders. And I only agree to do it with you guys is because like this goes back to like why I want to be surrounded with, first of all, people that have like interest, super smart people, but also people that have like positive some thinking, right? Patrick O'Shaughnessy has this gigantic successful show, Invest Like the Best. He's got Colossus Podcast Network. His fund is called Positive Some, and that's how he acts. I joined his network.

This is like months later. And they're like, hey, like, you know, we have editors, whatever. Like he has like this empire over there. Yeah. And resources, he's like, what do you want? And I was like, I just want you to amplify my audience and then connect me with first rate advertisers. Because like I think Acquired is a luxury podcast.

Maybe not luxury, premium. We got to go over the distinction there. But like we're saying, no, no, this is like we're trying to set the bar here. But anyways, he's like, hey, do you want editors? Do you want any of this stuff? I was like, no, I don't want, no one gets to touch my stuff. People think, oh, like, do they tell you what books to read? And I'm like, no, Patrick liked my show.

And he's just like, why would I tell you? Like, just whatever you're doing, just do it to more people now. And so to answer your question, no, like I pick the books, I record them, I edit. I'm still a one-person show. I don't know if that'll happen forever, but I do think the fact that your question, no, like I pick the books, I record them, I edit, I'm still a one-person show. I don't know if that'll happen forever, but I do think the fact that I just spend so much time with the material gets it in my brain. But the reason that, like I want to talk about the role you guys played in that, where we were getting on Zoom and for like the background here is like, you know, we had known of each other. I talked to Ben a long time ago because he was running this private podcast. This was like years ago.

And so anyways, we're like, That's also funny to think back, like all the dead ends that we went to, like we went down a ton of them. You went down a ton of them. You're about to talk about some of them. Like there's so many dead ends. But they're in the books too.

Yeah, but they're in the books. Remember when we changed the name of the show to Adapting? Oh my God, that was a dead end. That was on me. That one was on me. Tell the story. COVID happened God. That was, that was, that was on me. Tell the story. COVID happened. And we were like, no one wants to hear these like stories of like extreme capitalism. Like we're like the X games of capitalism. And like, this is a moment where like everyone is hurting zero business.

And like, this isn't that the stock market trough too, where you're just like, wow, like, you know, all businesses are going to go under. No one's ever going to have jobs again. This is, you know, this is scary. And so we were like, well, like what stories should we tell? How about businesses that are adapting to make it through this tough time and to like show how serious we were about it. We changed the name of the show. It was like our three least listened to episodes covering a pretty amazing stories, but we just branded it wrong. Like Canlis is like the most interesting restaurant story you could ever hear about. And like, that's the only time we've ever done Intel. That's the only time it was adapting. Not quite. It was stupid. So stupid,

but there's no way to do like learn rather than screw up. Do you want to know the first name of founders? Ooh, you know, like in your RSS feed, you can change the name, right? But you can't change the link. Like it'll still say. So you look at it from mine and it's Autotelic. The worst name. Autotelic comes from this book called Flow. How do you even spell that? A-U-T-O-T-E-L-I-C.

Maybe. I don't know. I can't spell. I can't spell, pronounce. I have no grammar. So it'd be like, you read so much. I was like, I don't pay attention to any of that stuff. Is that the Mihaly?

Yes. The Guide to Flow. Yes. It is an activity that you do forhalyi? Yes. The Guide to Flow. Yes. It is an activity that you do for the sake of itself. Going back to your question, it's like, why? I just love to read. I'm going to do this if no one listens. That's how I know I'm going to win.

Because people are like, oh, would you do it for free? It's like, no, no, I paid to do this. For a long time. For a long time. I literally said I'm going to quit, and I have the savings. I have a wife and a daughter to support. Now I have i have a son a wife a daughter and a son and i was like i bet you i i just put trust in myself is just like i'm going to if i focus on this seven days a week i'll figure out the business model i know like i don't think i'll ever get rich from it but i will

at least pay my bills right and so like every month i'm like oh less money there and like so i paid to do it so the idea where like uh you know again people get i think steve jobs talks about this like the older he gets he said something like the older he gets the more he realizes why people do things matters and so he's always asking those questions like i always say it's like how do you know uh that you found what you love to do and uh people are like oh because like i wouldn't sell my company it's like okay there's another level it's like how much would you've had to pay steve jobs to stop working at apple the answer is he wouldn't take all the money in the world how how much would you have to pay

charlie a lot of people tried to stop steve jobs from working at apple yeah but like think about that like the idea is like he's not doing it for money he's in a different game he's doing it for the sake of itself and so i went through a bunch of different names uh history's greatest men history's greatest like history all this there's terrible names and i just started narrowing it more and more and more to like founders and i was like oh that's perfect there is a because you weren't even like you weren't coming from the tech world you weren't like there's a this wasn't content marketing no no it was just like uh the the idea i had known about like warren buffett elon musk and all these other people and i remember you had kevin rose on your show a long time ago so you guys remember his he had if he would have not that long ago maybe a year year and a half yeah yeah it just time flies

because it was post it was he was he was he was pretty much already fully web three by the time we so do you guys remember foundation yeah of course like one of the first high quality yeah like imagine if he would have stuck with that show like you know what i mean like it would have been a monster it's like the the only episodes that ever came out was like here's me interviewing elon musk here's me interviewing sam altman here's me and like these people and also before they became like elon had the model that's it elon had the model that was the only thing he was just about to release the model s the roadster no they were in the factory because i watched it i watched it all the time they were in the factory building the model s that's right so it was i don't know if you could buy it yet but it was like coming or whatever

and elon looks way younger and like you know and then in 2015 Tim Ferris I was a big fan of his podcast I'd read like you know for our work week I remember the way I just got four hour body changed my life did it yeah with the slow carb yep slow carb diet I did that too slow carb diet cold showers like I did and the funniest thing is like this is like this whole cold punch thing that's like becoming a thing now i'm like was nobody like reading tim ferris in 2011 like that was a huge part of yeah well it goes back only our demographic was yeah actually that that made me think of something let me interrupt this story because i think it's really important you're like oh is anybody listening to our like no one's gonna listen to our amazon episode they already know it and so this is something that like

engineering becomes the most successful are you gonna quote to quote Ogilvy? Yes. Yes. I've listened to enough founders to know. Yeah, because it's like, this is so key that people don't understand. It's like, you're not advertising to a standing army, you're advertising to a moving parade. And so like, I will literally get on calls with like media company founders that are like selling ads or like building companies.

And I'm like, oh yeah, you must've read Ogilvy. They're like, what? And I was like, these are not new lessons. Like if, and again, this comes from the humility to realize, hey, you must have read Ogilvy. They're like, what? And I was like, these are not new lessons. And again, this comes from the humility to realize, hey, Warren Buffett's smarter than me. So if that dude in his shareholder letters is saying, David Ogilvy's a genius, I'm like, wait a minute. This dude, how many businesses has Warren Buffett looked at at that point? How many founders and managers has he looked at when he's like, this dude's a genius?

Yeah. This is not rocket science, guys. Just go and like, let's search David Ogilvy and amazon five books good order them all these days to search david ogilvy and your podcast player of choice like um that's i went to wait but explain the the standing army versus so you're not advertising to uh standing army you're advertising to moving parade but what happens is like even when you put on the Sequoia episode, right? Me and David went on a hike in Stanford. And I was like, dude, you have this crazy back catalog. Every single day, you have more people following your podcast feed than you had the day before.

I was like, because I knew this because I was a subscription podcast, right? Recount briefly your business model journey. So I'll give you a shorter breakdown because like I went through so many of them. I just put a hard paywall. Listen to the first 30 minutes. You want to listen to all of them. Then you pay, right? And this is when we had that chat that you were talking about.

We got to go back to that. We were like, dude. You're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong. Because there's been times like this one where we're like, what the hell are you doing? But there's been other times where you come to us and you're like, do you know how good your Sequoia episodes were? And the fact that you have four times the audience that you have now and none of the 75% of those people have ever heard the Sequoia episode, what are you doing? And so you guys, we had this hike.

This is an old-givy idea. Remember, not my idea. I don't get, like, everything has already been done, guys. I'm speaking to the people listening, not you. You obviously know this. It's already been done. Just go see. Hey, that person's smart.

He learned from 40-year career. Like, you're not going to pick up on an idea you can use as silly. So I told David. I was thinking about this. There's some cases where it's not true. But I think most truly, like, iconic world-changing businesses and founders. They stand on the shoulders of giants, but they have one or multiple things that is novel that they come up with.

It's the combination of these ideas, like Sam Walton taking Sol Price's ideas and his competitor's ideas, and like, hey, what about, you guys are kind of ignoring these 4,000-person communities. I'm pretty sure the thesis behind Walmart is like, will they just drive far distances just to save money? The answer is yes. Five hours. But that isn't a novel idea.

Yeah, exactly. It's combining one big novel idea with a bunch of other things that you can learn from history. I combined David Ogre's idea by republishing your Socorro podcast and then you text me and you're like, oh, my God. Like, the downloads are crazy.

Yeah. And because the vast majority—because you're not podcasting to a standing army. You're podcasting to a moving parade. And so I had known this because through my experimentation, I would take an old episode that I had done, do a preview, throw it up, and you'd get conversions every time because it was new to them. And that was like—so Ogilvie, I credit Ogilvy for that idea. That's an idea he got from Claude Hopkins and Albert Lasker who were building advertising businesses 50 years before him. Is this Scientific Advertising? Yes.

Yeah. Also a good Founders episode. Yeah. He's excellent. That book, Scientific Advertising, sold like 8 or 10 million copies. They kept it in Albert Lasker. So Claude Hopkins worked for Albert Lasker. Albert Lasker thought the book was so good,

he stored it in a vault. He wouldn't let any, he's like, he built. Because it was like the secrets of the industry, right? Like don't publish this because we don't want this getting out. I learned that because in Ogilvy and Advertising at the very end of the book, David's like, here, these are the six giants

that I learned from. So I was like, okay, well then I'm going to Google search. Who's like, I'm going to read the book. the very end of the book david's like here these are the six giants that i learned from so i was like okay well then i'm going to google search who's like i'm going to read the book this is not rocket science again so then he's like oh albert lasker made more money than anybody in than anybody else in the history of the advertising business he's like hold up what how also none of us know this guy's name yeah and so then then you realize it's like he says in the book he's like his estate outside of chicago was so big he had 40 full-time employees i'm like, what? Like, what are you talking about?

Like, make these words make sense in my mind. That doesn't make any sense to me. So you read Albert Lasker, and then he tells you about Claude Hopkins. He's like, yeah, the information was so good that, like, I stored that in my vault for 20 years. And then once he sold his advertising, or I think he gave it away like a token, like $100,000, you know, to the people working there. And then they released it, and Claude went off on his own and everything else. So these are not like... Okay.

So you were doing the 30-minute hard cutoff when we... And so when... It's so unsatisfying. It's like, I'm going to listen to 30 minutes of this episode and then like I'd have to get... Someone's asking me to pay for the rest. But you probably have pretty good conversion, right? The conversion rates were higher.

But you guys said this is where... You were at a local maximum. This is where, like, you were very helpful. Like, David, first of all, and you guys are nice. This is not the language you use.

You're like, you idiot. Like, that's how this is like. But you guys are so nice. It's like, dude, you're doing it wrong. Listen, for every one person, I think it was Ben that said this,

for every one person that would buy a podcast, there's a thousand or a hundred that would listen to them for free. Like, just... It's about a hundred. Yeah, probably even more than that, you know? And so then you guys would show me like, you open the kimono and you're like, this is, these are our downloads. This is who we advertise with. This is what we charge for advertising. You're just like,

well, the other, the other really key insight is, uh, so after spending a bunch of time with originally Kimberlite, then Glow, which is sold to Libsyn, and still what powers the acquired LP program. An interesting learning is most podcasts should generate about 50% of their revenue from direct monetization, some kind of membership program, or paywalling their feed, and about half from advertising. And the math should sort of work out where that's going to be the case. For the type of podcasts that we are, where you have lots of founders and CEOs and hedge fund managers and the sorts of people listening, you could never ask someone to pay you in membership what they are worth to the most valuable advertiser for that slot. And so the way it sort of works out is like you're massively hamstringing your monetization

potential if you make it membership only, because you'd have to be like, yes, please pay $2,000 to $5,000 a year in order to get access to this private thing versus if you were to take that same piece of content and open it up to advertisers. You made the good point earlier, and we can elaborate on that, right? Why you're so psychotic about this sentence needs to get out of here, like these two sentences, let's remove it. Because if you could factor in the average hourly rate of the people in your audience, it is unbelievable. So even I think if you make, what, a million dollars a year, and we know people obviously in our audiences make a lot more than that, but I think a million dollars a year is what, 500 bucks an hour or something like that? I don't know the math. I'm not a good math person. But like, so you're asking if they listen to an hour long podcast of

founders, it's like that's 500 like you cannot waste these people's time so i never answer your question when you're like hey how do you guys think about this do you do re-edit or do you cut them out i use descript as well i actually think the way i listen to founders is obviously listening to it and listening and reading like the superpower of podcasts is you can listen to it when you're doing something else but when you're editing but i think i'm going I'm going to put all my podcasts up on YouTube. I don't have any video. But I think I'm going to use Descript.

So there is like, some people have success just putting up the audio on a static picture. And you can listen to it on YouTube. But I also think, well, if I'm going to do that, I might as well just have this. And that's kind of cool if you want to use it but don't have to. We did not find success doing that. Like, this episode will be the first episode this year that's on YouTube because we basically said, if there's not interesting video, then it's not a video podcast

and you can go find it in a podcast player. I'm using it just for search. Yeah, that's smart. I don't think I'm ever going to do video anything because it's just like, it's so much simpler to do. Literally, what I'm saying is like, I'm going to upload the MP3 to YouTube. Like, I'm not making a video just because it is.

They're eventually going to have. They're not stupid. They're eventually going to have the podcast player inside of YouTube. They released this 40-page document I read on their podcast goals on YouTube. Did I send it to you guys? No. I'll send it to you guys. Right now, I have YouTube Premium, so you can listen to them in the background like a podcast player.

Which is great. But they need to have podcast functionality. It's still like a video. So anyways, the way I do it is yes, I'm very aware that who's listening, I'm not ever going to waste a lot of their time, and what

I've found with the more practice I have for the podcast is I'm able to edit on the fly. I don't have a script, right? So I'll go through the book, I highlight, then write down whatever pops in my mind. I don't like just, first of all, the highlights. Like am I excited about that? Oh, that's interesting.

Highlight. Just go off instinct, right? And then write down like something that, oh, that's like this or that made me think of this. And I just write it down, right? Then I'll reread all these highlights the night before I record. So it's like the second time. You're doing this in physical books, right? Physical books, yeah.

But you're putting your notes into ReadWise? That happens after. Okay. That happens after. So the fifth time, every single book I do, I think I read the highlights five times. And the fifth time is me actually taking pictures of the physical book and putting it in ReadWise.

So Jeff, I was thinking about this yesterday because I'm also slightly obsessed with Jeff Bezos. You're slightly obsessed with a lot of founders. That's why when we were like, you're like, we're sitting in chairs. Like, dude, I'm going to be forward. Yeah, we were setting up the camera angles before. Because you know what I love? We're like, we got to move David's chair back here a little bit.

Do you ever, have you ever watched the old Jeff Bezos interviews when he's like first starting Amazon? He's like skinny and bald. Oh, yeah. The one that's like in that field outside the conference. Yes. I think this is interviews when he's first starting Amazon. He's like skinny and bald. It's amazing. The one that's in that field outside the conference. Yes, I think this is the one. He's sitting, you see grass behind him. I don't know if he's in a field. But he leans forward and he's like,

we're gonna be the most customer obsessed company ever. He's got that look on his face. Yeah, that's how I am about founders. I'm like, you know. You're like, that dude's a psycho. But Jeff says something that, he is. But Jeff says something in Invent and Wander, which is an excellent book because it's all of his shareholder letters and transcripts of his speeches. Walter Isaacson did that, right?

Yep. And all of his transcripts of his speeches. And he goes, do you really want to live in a world or to compete against somebody that's as good as you? Like, I certainly wouldn't. That's what he states. And he's like, if you read his shareholder letters and listen to him he's like he's constantly looking for unfair advantages and i think part of the fact that i have now over 20 000 highlights from hundreds of books i still have like 50 or 60 or maybe 80 books i haven't put in there yet that are in my library so it's like that's my readwise account is an

unfair advantage because anytime somebody's talking it's like like I can immediately, oh, you said something. I search for that term and it pulls up. And it's like, oh, and then I see my highlight and I see my note. It takes so long. Yeah. Like so long to do that, but it's worth the extra five or ten hours a week. And that's integrated into your process of making. Yes, because I'm reading something.

I remember. No, I know I've seen this before. I can't remember it. I type in that term and it pulls up every single instant. Wow. Instance of it. It's an unfair advantage that I have with me all the time. And what I'll do is,

whenever I'm waiting for an Uber today, just pull up Readwise and Readwise has the highlights feed. And I'll show you guys what it looks like. It looks a lot like a Twitter feed right completely random so I'm not choosing this and instead of me reading Twitter all day which is not a good use of your time it's this highlight from the Dodge Brothers I haven't read that book you know that was like episode you know probably like the 115th Billy Duran who's the founder of GM Sam Colt and so are these ones that other people have liked a lot? No. So therefore. No. It's just repopulating your own.

Yes. Oh, that's awesome. So it's my form of practice. So you've got. Whoa. Let me give you an example. A healthy Twitter there on your phone. So is that what like, how many times a day, like how often are you just pulling up Readwise

and. Almost every day. And if I'm not doing it on Readwise,, I'll go to my bookshelves. So what will happen is you can pull a book off my shelf. And I'm thinking about this for my kids. Long after I'm gone, my kids can be like, what was my dad into? And they can go back and see, oh, and when he was 35 or 38, this is the podcast he made. Let me go find that book.

And then they can pull off the shelf. Oh, this is the line he thought was interesting. Oh, wow, you see dad's handwriting here and like so i use this for myself where i can pick up a book and quote unquote read it reread it in 30 minutes by rereading my highlights and notes and now i'm like it's back in back like in front of mine um and then what happens is like you can do this anytime like people are like oh i'm running late for lunch like i'll just do this or i'll answer dms or i always have stuff to do with me but i use it as a form of practice. The reason I said this is like, it sounds stupid. People think it's maybe, maybe they think it's silly. I don't know. But I read this book. It's episode 212 of Founders. It's called Michael Jordan, The Life. It's a 600 page biography. And in that book. You just have like

this encyclopedia knowledge to, of the numbers of your episodes, which I'm so impressed by. I don't, it's only because I reference that all the time. So when, if you look up something over and over again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's only because I reference that all the time. So if you look up something over and over again, it's repetition. Everything in life is repetition. Sam Walton's career is repetition. You know, like it's like, I just think you're trying to,

this is what I asked Charlie. Like one of the most interesting things he said, he's like, one of the best things that ever happened to me is I got rich later in life. You know, like he saw the time and how difficult it was. Like he was talking about like,

imagine you being like super famous or rich when you're like 21 or 25 and how disorienting. He's like, I was a full-grown man, like with life experiences with a wife and kids. He had a child who died. Yeah, I did not mention that, yeah. Yeah. But like he had all, like, you know, a full life experience. And therefore also the main problem that happens is people don't know they're like i was the son of a poor man now i'm rich and my kids live an unbelievable amount of

wealth and privilege how do i deal with that that comes up in the books for hundreds of years the answer is no one knows right and so with charlie though the benefit is he didn't have a famous last name or a lot of wealth his kids were like grown right they wouldn't have to deal with that when you're five or seven or ten. He also gave me some advice that was fascinating. You do that like you got to pay that bill eventually though. Like his grandkids have to. Well, so how do you deal with this though, right?

Like he's multi-billionaire. Like that's an insane. Right. This is a five generation problem. Not only is he a multi-billionaire, he's like people like us talk for hours about him. He's like a celebrity. So I just read this fantastic book. I like reading obscure books because go back to what Jeff Bezos said, differentiation is survival.

So like I'll find like weird books. Like me and Sam were in this weird, I was searching for books for you guys yesterday. I couldn't find any. I will order them and bring some to you because I always bring books. And I was really, we went to three different bookstores. I'm not kidding. You brought energy drinks instead. But no no we literally

blessed Sam and his patience with me and drove me all around Menlo Park and Palo Alto yesterday going to bookstores I was literally looking for you guys what a great you had specific books in mind no no no

I like going to used bookstores and I think of my interpretation of you guys in my mind and I just know if this book is good for that person like the Henry Flagler book I knew that was good for Charlie munger because of what he said so i don't know what's going to happen now i do have two books picked out for you guys which i'll send you but um they're not they're like newer books but anyways by the way that sounds like a great day

driving around with sam pinky and yeah going to bookstores like what yeah what better day could you spend also the peninsula is like beautiful Yeah, and Sam's unbelievably intelligent, and she's got a weird alien brain, as I always tell them. Our mutual friend Mitchell Baldrige, that all three of us know, says Sam has a giga brain. I think it's what he said, his description of it. But I like obscure books. I read this book that's very hard to find.

It's like 300 bucks. It's called The Invisible Billionaire. Daniel Ludwig was the richest person in the world in the 80s, and no one knew who he was. He paid a public relations firm to keep his name out of the papers. Do what your competitors don't. Yeah, so he's just like, I don't want to be known. And a lot of his was like shipping and oil and refining and mining and all that other stuff. But the author makes the point in the book that how different a million and a billion is, going back to Charlie Munger, right? like it's like shipping and oil and refining and mining and and and all that other stuff but the

author makes the point in the book like how different a million and a billion is going back to charlie munger right yeah and he goes uh a stack of a million dollars in a stack of hundred dollar bills is like 40 inches you know uh a billion dollars in a stack of hundred dollar bills would be taught would be three times taller than the empire state building yeah and so like for us like oh that guy's kind of rich it It's like, no, the billionaire and millionaires are not in the same category. It's so disorienting. This is also a thing where like the English language has done us a disservice by naming two things that are a thousand times different, very similar words.

It sounds similar. Yeah. So they're not similar at all. What was a lot of people were asking, like, think about all the wealthy people that Charlie talks to. And they're asked like, okay, what do I do with like this wealth with my kids? And it's like, you know, if you give your kids a bunch of money,

is it going to demotivate them? And Charlie goes, of course it's going to. So he's like, but he's like, you know, it's like, again, like this should be obvious to you. So he says, don't try to steer his kids or his grandkids into what they should do for a living, is charlie munger's one of his best piece of advice that i took to heart it's like follow your natural drift yeah like how i pick books there's been like 15 or 20 that i've read completely or half and it's like i don't

like this book i'm not making an episode about it i i go to my bookshelf and i have like probably 80 or 100 books i haven't read yet most come from the audience and i was like what am i most excited to learn about now? And that's how I pick it, right? So following Natural Drift. Which is also more or less how we pick episodes too. We have a little bit more planning because now there's such long lead times,

but it's kind of like, what's interesting to us right now? Yeah, 100%. Very emotional. So he's like, don't try to steer them too much. And he definitely feels that some of them are going to be less motivated because they're born rich but he said this

was the most surprising thing but he goes you have to give them the money anyways or they're going to hate you for it and I was like that's like

because my answer before this I've read so many like family dynasty stories and I'm not saying I'm trying to build a dynasty or no they did and it ruined them

like did you guys you guys haven't done an episode on TCI John Malone that's like in that will happen this year so you know why um that was one of the books that was recommended the most they're like you gotta do cable cowboy you gotta do cable how where you gotta we both have read the book it's awesome it's excellent and there's so you know the story i'm about to tell you where the crazy thing is like i'm always thinking about,

I didn't understand this before dedicating my life to studying history, right? Where it's like, oh, wow, the decisions I'm making now can reverberate through the generations. That's a crazy thing. Where Bob Magnus, which is the founder of TCI, he doesn't have any monies, and rural Texas wants to jump into this new industry cable, right? Full of cowboys, like little cowboys. And he doesn't have money. So his dad gives him a $2,500 loan.

So Bob takes that $2,500 loan. And then let's say 40 years later, Bob dies and he's got to pass on his money, right? That was created from the company he created to his two kids. And he winds up giving them, I think, I don't know the numbers. I want to say company he created to his two kids. And he winds up giving them, I think, I don't know the numbers. I want to say like 200 million each, two sons. So think about that one decision. I think I talked about in the episode. And if I didn't, it's a big mess up on my part. And I stopped in that part. I'm pretty sure you did. I was like, hold on. Think about that. Like what if his dad didn't give him the 2,500? Yeah, we can talk about that.

Yeah. So his $2,500 turns into 400 million million let's say 200 million each for his grandsons change his grandson's lives right see that means you rule of thumb you take like i don't know you probably three more generations after that of wealth guaranteed that wealth is gone because i think it went up their nose like that was a so it's pretty hard in one generation but i don't know like the point was it's like they that wasn't good for them because they were not motivated. They did a bunch of drugs. I think they went to jail, like that kind of stuff. And you see that so much.

So my thought was like, oh, like get them a little bit but not enough that they don't have to work or whatever. And Charlie's like, they're going to hate you. Yeah. And like what's the point? That's such a good – It's just like human nature. This is my biggest takeaway from Charlielie and i think the biggest benefit that people that listen to founders and acquired and then hopefully read a bunch of the books and

do studying on their own are gonna realize this is like charlie i said it at the top of my notes and this is the first thing this is like it's comforting the conversation i had with charlie was comforting the same way that people tell me listening to founders is comforting, is like Charlie has an almost complete indifference to problems. Troubles from time to time should be expected. This is inescapable, so why would you let it bother you? And the difference, and if you think about, that's the main takeaway from this three-hour dinner I had with him, right? And if you think about how does he avoid this, he avoids it by great things have less problems. You're never going to escape problems, but if you're things have less problems. You're never going to escape problems but if you're around

great people like they're not going to throw up just like a great business doesn't throw up big problem after big problem after big problem your wife

your kids your friends your co-workers his whole thing is aim for the highest quality you can get and then that's going to solve 99% of your problems

and then when you have the problem the inevitable problems are still going to come okay just deal with it. He talked about like when he lost the money on Alibaba he brought that up you know that people try to make 99% of your problems. And then when you have the problem, the inevitable problems are still going to come. Okay, just deal with it. He talked about like when he lost the money on Alibaba, he brought that up, you know, that people try to make fun of him for or whatever.

It's like, you guys are missing the point. Like you're not going to escape, get through life without making mistakes. The founder of Ikea has this great quote where he says, making mistakes is the privilege of the active. Only those asleep make no mistakes. It's a version of the man in the arena. Yeah, the Teddy Roosevelt idea.

So, okay, so what do you think is the ideal way to handle it if at 35 someone becomes very wealthy and so when their kid's memory starts around age three, so for their entire kid's memorable lifetime, they've grown up in wealth and privilege. How does one handle that? I have no idea. I have no idea. Me even giving you an answer to that is like, there's this guy named Charles Kettering, or Kettering, I don't know how to pronounce his name. I read his biography, I think it's episode 127 or something like that. So he invented the electric Starter he found at AC Delco that gets acquired by GM He is the head of research and development at GM when GM is the most valuable company and most

Like the cutting edge of technology company in the world at the time There's a story from his wife and his daughter in that book Saying hey when he dies There's only one there's only three words on his On his tombstone. I don't know because that's what he would say over and over and over again and one there's a he's having this conversation same thing he was the son of a poor man he is now a rich man his kids are rich he's talking to other people that have the same experience his peers like what do you do and the answer what they came

up with i don't know yeah because it's so dependent on who the person is. Like, maybe you give them money going to Bob Magnus' grandsons. Maybe they're, you know, they're like Warren Buffett's kids where, like, they run foundations and they want to give the money away. And I don't think they're coke addicts. I don't know. But, like, you don't – it's just dependent on the person. So if there was a simple – if there was a correct answer,

I think some of these guys would have figured it out. Well, that's the thing about humans, right? Like every person is different. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, I have no idea. Really, that's the biggest thing where I think this is one of the lessons I learned from the podcast where, you know, you mentioned this at the beginning, Ben, where most of these people are just so, they're like best in class in this one dimension in the world and of course to get that they had to to be poured they had to they couldn't optimize all other areas of the life at the at what they did for like their work right you know sam walton is one of the rare guys where he gets to the end he knows he's dying because he's got cancer all over his body when he's writing that

book yeah and he's like listen if i could do everything again he's like yeah i missed some of my kids childhood they worked in the stores and he took them with him but he's like, listen, if I could do everything again, he's like, yeah, I missed some of my kids' childhood. They worked in the stores and he took them with him. But he's like, I'd do it again. I had to do this. I had to get after it. I had to improve. A lot of them, you know, get to the end of their life and like, oh, I regret. The founder of Ikea has the best words on this.

He said, you know, I had three sons growing up. He started Ikea when he was like 17, worked on it until he was like 80-something. And he's like, I sacrificed my three sons childhoods i regret it he goes anybody that has kids knows that childhood does not allow itself to be reconquered um and so like we were hanging out today we were gonna do recording go to dinner and i was my plan was i was i want to see my son he's like and my daughter it's like i'm gonna take the red eye and then i realized like yeah but i want to spend time with david and ben so i'm leaving early tomorrow morning but it's like i'm gonna take the red eye and then i realized like yeah but i want to spend time with david and ben so i'm leaving early tomorrow morning but it's like i'm doing this as fast as possible and if i had to i'd like fly back and forth because like your kids are think about like

the relationship you guys have with your parents are they still alive yep yep okay so you get to talk to them see them but you have your whole life right right when your kids are small there's like this tiny window when they're like two to five to six where you're everything to them Oh, even like you know, I've talked about I absolutely feel this way even my 10 year old daughter Like right now she wants to spend time with me like it was the cutest thing ever I was leaving going to LA to see Charlie and coming up to San Francisco to see you guys and she texts me She goes I'm wearing your sweater because like it makes me feel close to you like why you're gone You know I mean, but if you ask her to you, like, while you're gone.

You know what I mean? But if you ask her, do you want to spend movie night with dad and mom or do you want to go play Roblox with your friends? For sure the latter. They're friends. And she loves me. Don't get me wrong. But, like, their friends are way – they're really important to them. Yeah.

Where, like, every day I miss – my son's about to turn three. It's like, I'm not going to get back that day. And there's only, like, a thousand's about to turn three. It's like, I'm not going to get back that day. And there's only like a thousand of those days. And my wife won't have any more kids, even though I was like, I don't want a bunch of kids. I was like, I want a bunch. And she's like, no way. I said, hey, I don't have to get pregnant. So that's fine. Something that Buffett and Munger did with the Graham group that like was way ahead of its time that now anybody can do is they formed their social networks outside of geographic barriers Yeah, and they found they're like most compatible most like-minded highest level of talent You know peers and then they just like got on planes and got to go see them, you know

And like that was really hard to do back in the day and now anybody can do it's kind of like the Bill Gurley You know, you have no excuse not to do that. You also, but here's the thing, what people get wrong is they're like, oh, I want to meet this guy. You have to do the work necessary to make them worth your time, right? Which is like the unfair advantage that the three people sitting in this room have is that it doesn't matter. That's why like in the last six weeks I've gone to lunch or dinner with multiple billionaires. This is like, and the people that like you get to talk to and all this other stuff is

like, this dude is crazy. He's read 300 biographies of entrepreneurs. There's no way I'm going to have dinner with them and not pick up one idea. Like, and then now I've built this machine where like, oh, that's an interesting idea. I'll just plug it into this business. And like, it's not a financial transaction by any means, but there's no, the reason it's not that like, Charlie was the first person I met that I was actually nervous about. And it's the reason I'm not nervous is because I know I've done the work. Like you can't put me in a room with anybody on the planet and I'm not going to be able to tell them at least one interesting thing. It doesn't mean I'll be the most, the best dinner they've ever had in their life.

That's not what I'm saying. It's just like they're going to hear something that's like, oh, that's interesting and like goes through their own brain. And it's only because I've spent six years and same with you guys. It's like, oh, you should feel comfortable. Like you guys mentioned earlier, it's like your audience feels like two football fields and like, oh, it's a little bit of like, you didn't use the word insecurity,

but like a little nervousness. I want these people to like me. It's just like, do you know how, do you understand? It's like a fear pushing you from behind. But do you know like, you've most likely read,

you know more about the subject than they do. Sure, I do. But I need to make something worthy of their time. Yes, that is an admirable, you know. It's like, I could, who cares? I could spend all the time in the world and fail to synthesize the narrative and the takeaways. And all of a sudden then I've just, you know, then I've failed them. Regardless of how much work I did, the product wasn't good.

So that, that's, that's the thing. It's work I did, the product wasn't good. So that's the thing. It's hard to not have the product be good because you did the work. I guess that's my point. Yeah. I think we now have a process that means that when you and I put in the work, the product is good. But it took a long time to arrive at that. It's almost like uh you know the this is another sam hanky thing trust the process yep the um i guess the point i was making there though is um like because

you guys do so much preparation and like it's now your life's work like it's just so much it's it's gonna be so hard not to add value to the people in your lives whether it's like friends that never show up on a podcast or friends that like you don't have a business relationship with it's like and like you're just gonna add value because what you do is so rare like i nival ravikant has this he's influenced my thinking a lot too and he has this thing in um in the nival the almanac nival by our friend eric jorgensen yep and he's this thing in the Amunak Naval by our friend Eric Jorgensen. And he's just like, if you read an hour a day, that puts you in the.0001% of humans.

And I'm like, that can't be true. No, that's the dirty secret of acquired and founders is that people don't read books. So if you just read them and then tell people what's in the books, you're gonna 100X the market for books. And I couldn't believe that. I was having dinner with the same friend

that was telling me, like I told him, I was like, oh, I'll try to build a business around my reading. This was like a couple months ago. And he's like, you vastly overestimate how much people read. He goes, how many books a year

do you think the average person reads? I was like, I don't know, 12? It's one. It's like 0.5. Zero. I remember asking a book publisher, and he said, America reads a book a year. Well, he quoted some other study.

I said 12. He's like, no, not 12. He's like, it's zero. The average is zero. Yeah. It's crazy. And yeah, to your point, I've become friends with a bunch of writers.

Some of them I met through the podcast. And they've been telling me, like teaching me about the publishing industry and just breaking down. Like 98% of books ever published sell less than 5,000 copies. It's parallel. The book business is the venture business, which is so interesting to me how the advance model works. It's like quite similar to a seed financing. I mean, they put out, you know,

$50,000 for an advance on your book, which is, you know, covers your cost of living while you're writing it. And like, they kind of don't care about recouping it because- No, it's even worse. The whole business is about, did I sign up James Clear this year? And you know when you have Michelle Obama on your hands and you have to pay for it, but you don't know when you have a James Clear on your hands. And when that becomes the book that America reads this year, you better make sure it's in your publishing house and not one of the other three big or four big, whatever it is, publishing houses. Seed funding is better

because their advances are recoupable. Right. So it's like, we're having this long conversation. It's the most preferred stock. Yeah, we were talking before. It's participating preferred. We were talking before we started recording. I was like, man, Jimmy Soni would be great

to do a sessions with just because he's got this historical knowledge of PayPal. PayPal being so important to like Silicon Valley history. And we were talking about this and he's like, man, Jimmy Sony would be great to do a sessions with just because he's got this historical knowledge of PayPal, PayPal being so important to Silicon Valley history. And we were talking about this, and he's like, no, I have to pay that back through sales. I'm like, oh. Because the thing is, going back to like, did you guys listen to GameCraft, Blake Robbins? Oh, yeah. Every episode.

Yep. So excellent. So good. Like unbelievably good. And what I loved about it is how they focused on the business model innovations and how one decision by some random group of programmers in the 1980s affected a business model decision 10 years later or whatever. And I was talking to Jimmy about this. I go, books are fantastic. They're the best products in the world. There's a great quote in Poor Charlie's Almanac which says that there's ideas worth billions in a $30 history book.

For Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett, that is literally true, right? Yeah. And what I don't understand is, like, you guys have such a high-value product, and you haven't innovated on the business model at all. Yeah. And so I was telling Jimmy, I was like, do you know the deal? Like, just think about this as, like, an entrepreneur. Like, you're not a writer.

You're an entrepreneur, and your product just happens to be a book. But you can make money off that any kind of way you want. Like, you can just get creative. I go, people think it's crazy where I'm like, I'm trying to be the Jay-Z of podcasts. And people are like, what the hell is wrong with you? And I did like that episode. Have you done episodes on Jay-Z? That episode I did on Jay-Z's autobiography is one of my most popular. People listen to it two, three, four, five times. I love Jay-Z and I love you. So I can't believe I haven't listened to that episode. Jay-Z has the founder mentality and he had it since he was a

kid. And you just see everything his whole career. people look at him like oh like this is another thing about intelligence manifests itself in vastly different ways it's not always like credentialed in many cases it's not right but like jay-z is a straight-up genius if you listen to him and what he did and he looked at he's like yeah he says it from the get-go he's like i thought i told you characters i'm not a rapper he's like i'm a businessman and rap just happens to be product. And so I'm going to think about it like that. I go, Jimmy, you should do that. I go, why don't you just find a deal like Jay-Z did with Samsung? He's like, what are you talking about?

Well, true founders, entrepreneurs, whatever, founders in your case, is the title you want to put on them. They care about ownership. They own their work. And realize that the business model matters, which is why I brought up GameCraft. So what Jay-Z did, this is years ago. is his magna carter holy grail probably came out 2013 so he goes he goes um you know i could i record this this this uh album and then i could sell like normal you know stream it and then sell it for ten dollars you want the physical copy etc etc

he goes he goes what if i just want my money guaranteed so he goes to samsung and says samsung you're launching this new app uh this new phone, and you have your own app on it. I'm going to sell you, I will sell you a million copies, $5 each. You give me $5 million guaranteed for my album. I'm still going to own it. So he gets a streaming light. He goes, and so what I'll do is you pay me $5 million. The first million people that get access to my album are going to be Samsung, whatever phone was coming out.

You download it for free if you have this device. And so it's advertising to the Samsung, and it's guaranteed money to him. I go, dude, you're writing about technology founders. I was like, there's these venture capital funds that have $80 billion of asset center management. Just like, hey, will you pay me a million dollars to write this book? And then you say, hey, this book is now presented by whatever firm. This is why me and you, us two have talked about this privately. You guys already know this, but it's like,

there's been like, something like 15 acquisition or investment offers for founders. I said no to every single one. A lot of them are like this, where it's like, oh, well, you have the attention of people that are valuable.

You just said, the worst thing that could happen to a venture firm is they miss the hit of that. So they have to expand, like they have to make sure they catch that, right? So it's like,

hey, we'll pay for founders or whatever, give you X amount of money, pay you to do it. the hit of that. So they have to expand, like they have to make sure they catch that. Right. So it's like, Hey, we'll, we'll pay for founders or whatever. Give you X amount of money, pay you to do it. You do exactly what you do. The only difference is essentially they're trying to buy up our inventory forever. It's like,

Hey, founders is presented by X company. If you're going to raise money, email here, you know? And the, the response I have when these, I get these pitches is like,

if I did that, that means I'm not actually learning the lessons in the books. Right. Right. Which is like, you never give up control. It's like, no, why would I ever do that? Let's dive into like a deal structure on that. So like, what if they weren't, what if you weren't giving up control? And what if you weren't giving up economics forever? You're just doing a period of time buyout of all your ad inventory? This is the intelligent thing. This is what Tegas is doing with Invest Like the Best. And this is why it's crazy to me when I talk to people and they don't understand this. I had a conversation with the founder and he's like, it's really weird. I'm not going to say who it was. He's like, it's really weird that this company is running ads on

that podcast every single episode forever. And I'm like, not at all. And I go, oh, see. Moving parade, not standing army. I go, David Ogilvie ran the same exact ad in the same magazine for 30 years, and it was still effective. And so I went, I was like, this is, I go, what do you think Coca-Cola has been doing for a hundred? This is not new ideas. Either Coca-Cola is really dumb or. Exactly. And I don't think they're dumb. Apple has the prime billboard

in every major city in America to advertise whatever the latest iPhone is forever. Forever. So I talked to Michael Elnick, who's the co-founder of Tegas. We all know each other. And we talked about this. And this is another example because

this somewhat affects our business because when there's like a decline in overall economics, like ad markets usually shrink a little bit and ad rates come down. And it's like, oh, you're doing exactly what investors do. Like, what do Charlie and Buffett do when there's a crash? They don't deploy. Deploy.

You read Izzy Sharp's fantastic autobiography, the founder of Four Seasons, right? And he says this. He goes, he's building what didn't exist at the time, the only chain of five-star hotels at the time. And he says, I grow. And this is every founder does. It's Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller, Henry Kelly Frick. When they have recessions, that's when they grow. So what he would do is his competitors would pull back on advertising. He would spend more. And he says, he claims, I think in the book, he increases market share by like 25% or 28% using this over and over again. Because human nature is, oh, crap, things are small and they cut.

This is what Ogilvy said. Ogilvy's like, if you need advertising to sell your product, it's not a marketing expense. It's a production cost. It's actual cost of manufacturing your product. And so what Tegas, what Michael Elnick did that was such a genius move was, first of all, he knew something was working, right? And he scaled up through podcast ads. And he knew it was effective. And then he's like, oh, okay, well, like now you have all these people in the tech industry.

Their stock's creating. Everybody's like running a retreat. What does he do? He goes like, oh. There's probably available inventory. And so he goes, hey, Colossus Network, I'd like to buy up every single ad inventory for 2023 on every single one of your shows. That's how you know that likelihood that guy's going to win.

Like, I don't know the details of his business. It's private and everything else. It's like, that's the right decision. The same decision. That's what Ogilvy would have done. That's what Buffett and Munger do when they put money in. Like, that is, that's what Coca-Cola does. It doesn't matter the economic climate.

You ever get to see less Apple billboards? You can see less Coca-Cola? No. It's interesting to think about this in the venture business, right? Like, which obviously, as we record this here in mid-March, you know, 2023, there's a lot going on in the venture business. It's so dynamic right now that I feel like we don't know the last two iterations of what have happened because we've been recording and I haven't checked my phone. That's how fast the world is moving right now.

Things are happening very quickly as we speak. But I think a consequence of that, to your point about you should advertise heavier during recessions, I think customer differentiation among venture firms is just declining rapidly, right? Like what is... Well, no, it was until interest rates went up. But now that capital is scarce again... I think both the up and the down cycle is both, I think, are commoditizing. I totally disagree with this. I think when capital was a commodity and money was free,

it was extremely hard to differentiate yourself as a venture firm or any financial firm. But like, it should be easier than ever to differentiate yourself because the thing- Okay, so how do you differentiate yourself right now? You guys are doing it. You can, I mean, well, one of them, like, let's abstract away, like,

speaking to the acquired audience as one of them, or as a gigantic means of differentiation. Well, let's just say you're XYZ average venture firm out there. Having money and writing the checks. Right, but yes, having money, right, but like... A year from now, it's like six to twelve months from now that's

going to be differentiating so i have a thought on this uh one i don't know anything about venture investing two i don't know anything about investing period like i get to talk to super smart investors and i'm sure the questions i'm like hold on you had to find that for me and i'm sure they're like this kid's an idiot um but when you guys were talking a little bit about like your business and like your the venture game in general is I just think of one of my favorite things that I heard Jeff Bezos say. For years, people were like, hey, when are you going to do physical retail? When are you going to do physical retail? When are you going to do physical retail?

And he said something that was crazy. He's like, physical retailing is an ancient business. And I love that term. It's like an ancient business. So I'm not going to do it until I know. It's so hard to improve on an ancient business. And I love that term. It's like an ancient business. So I'm not going to do it until I know, like, I can, it's so hard to improve on an ancient industry. It has to be completely differentiated. You mentioned, I heard you on one of your podcasts where you're like, you went to the

Amazon Go store just as like a, like pure curiosity. It's like not like you needed something. And so you guys have probably read that story too, where it's like at one time they were going to do like meat and like all this other stuff that you'd have to like talk to somebody. He's like, no, you have to redo this. This doesn't make sense. The key, the differentiation here is that you walk in, you walk out. Not walk in, talk to some guy, he's like cutting salami for you. Like you got to get that out of there. And so I've had this thought because I've read a bunch of biographies on investors too. And like investing is an ancient business.

Like, and we're just doing it in different ways now. And so I was like, well, if you wanted to invest, right? Let's say you wanted to invest in private companies, which people have been doing forever. I always think of like, like where did JP Morgan get his deal flow? And you know, like you've read through the history. It's like people are like, oh, that was J.P. Morgan Bank.

Like, no, no, there's no retail bank. Like you're not going in there. There's no ad, like a sign on the door. It's like, here's J.P. Morgan Company. It's like, it was a relationship based. It's like you got in if you knew somebody, right? I read this biography that's incredible. I highly recommend people read it.

It's episode 103 of Founders. It is the richest woman in America, Hetty Green, I can't remember the subtitle. I love how he denies that he knows every number of every episode and then busts out three more. It's only because I reference this all the time. So Hedy Green, right?

It's only because you reference every episode all the time. One day it's just going to be a recording of just all the episode numbers. But Hedy Green- You are an algorithm. You are your ReadWise app. That's how I get it.

So the Hedy Green, though, was so wealthy that she bailed out the city of New York. Like that book has unbelievable stories. What? I've never heard this person's name and they bailed out the city of New York? Her family. So when she was alive, the richest city in the world per capita was like New Bedford, Massachusetts. Oh, yeah. Whaling.

Bingo. So her family made so much whaling. And the way they looked at the family fortune is, I am a steward of this money. My job is to make it grow so that the next generation has more. And then she's like the third generation of these whaling. And then whaling, it died out, I think, the generation before her. So they had to figure out how to make money.

The technology stocks of her day, railroads. like she made a ton of money roads and then she'd buy land uh like real estate in New York and everything else but anyways my point being and um I had this conversation with Patrick one day um I was like think about it like that was an ancient investing is an ancient business so like you wouldn't do what Hedy Green did like where did she get her deal from from uh people knew her uh they knew she was wealthy. They knew that she was the first person to go to in financial panics. They called financial panics what we call recessions and depressions now. And it was like, you know, every three years back then.

Yeah. And so what she would do, she had a desk in Chemical Bank in Manhattan. So the advantage there is geography. Physical location, you're at the center of finance in America. You need to be here. You build a reputation. So literally, there are stories in the book where there'd be a line of people in financial crashes waiting at her desk.

It's like, OK, I'll sell you my real estate stocks, pennies on the dollar. Cornelius Vanderbilt did the same thing. She invested with him and a bunch of other people, right? And I was like, but what would you do today? Like, you want an edge. Everything we're talking about is like, you need an edge, right? You can't play.

Ed Dorp has a great quote in his book. He's like, I've been a manager, money manager for 50 years. One thing I know is you, you, the surest way to get rich is only play games and make investments where you have an edge. Right. Right. Which is another way of saying, do something your competitors don't, aren't, or can't. Or Edwin Land. So Edwin Land plays a huge role in my life.

Founder of Polaroid, Steve Jobs Hero, because he said, I have a personal model. It may not fit anybody else. Don't do anything someone else can do. And so I was like, okay, I don't think anybody else could do founders the way I do it. So I'm just going to do this, right? So my point being is like,

how would you do it today? Well, you would, it would look very much like what I think you guys are building. And I'm not an investor, so I don't know anything about your world, but it's just like, I'd spend my time reading and learning about business history. Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett did that. Every single investor you guys are building. And I'm not an investor, so I don't know anything about your world, but it's just like, I'd spend my time reading and learning about business history.

Charlie Munger and Warren Buffett did that. Every single investor you guys have probably read about does that all the time. They read constantly, right? I would share what I know. That's going to build my network of other people. Those people are eventually going to sell me deals. Then I have this huge advantage that you couldn't even do 10 years ago or 15 years ago because there's no such thing as a podcast, right? It's like, now I could record all the stuff I'm learning, right? Which we should say, there have been iterations of this. Like, this is how Union Square Ventures became Union Square Ventures. Our foundry group became foundry group. Blogging.

Blogging, and then Brad and Jason writing the book on venture deals. I mean, it's like- Venture hacks with Naval and Rivi. I have two other examples. It's just like, it's not even venture. Like, what is the most successful content marketing of all time rivy i have two other examples this is like it's not even venture like what is the most successful content marketing of all time uh michelin no berkshire shareholder totally of course berkshire shareholder letters because this is how you know genius it is the greatest act of

salesmanship because you never even see the sale happening it's like hey and they spend you know you guys have probably done this research how much time they spend on those letters it's like half a year seven eight months for every letter this is not like oh i just jot it down what i learned this year and the crazy thing is like he's old uncle warren how many people have this is something charlie talked oh so this is a great great thing that uh this came up here did you talk about the letters with him no i asked him about like so i was explaining i was like charlie i'm literally in the middle of like reading about you when you were like around my age so every time I read a book I'm like okay I first of all I know what year they're they're born so every time as I go through the books I'm like how old are they and I write down okay he's 24 here he started I want to know what they were

doing in and around my age and so I'm like Charlie I'm thinking about you guys like you just started like your fund starts he's like 41 or something like that I don't remember what it was right and um and I was like then like 50 like you start out you're trying to figure things out you could see them kind of figuring out making the mistakes you guys did an excellent job on your episode like talking about what they learned from getting to like get away from the Ben Graham like get to wonder excellence great businesses are rare we should be in there and then there's let time do all the work and I was like and now like

you guys put up the greatest investment record the world's ever seen. I was like, are you surprised? He goes, of course. He's like, of course I'm surprised. Like, how could you not be? Like, we want to be successful. And we were, like, had, we were ambitious and driven. But there's no way you could say, hey, I'm going to make it worth, what's Berkshire's market cap right now?

I don't know. Like, 500 billion? 500 billion. Yeah, whatever it is. But he said, but the reason that popped to my mind when I was asking him these questions, let me actually get the exact note because I don't want to mess up the way he said it because his lines were just excellent. And so he goes, he's surprised how successful him and Warren turned out, but how could you not be surprised?

And then he says something that was fascinating. He goes, I think we get too much credit. And I was like, whoa, that's interesting. Like, why do you think that, Charlie? And he's like, it's very, he goes, I find it odd to be so wealthy and loved. That's not, these are not exact words. These are my interpretation of his words.

Let me just be clear here. I find it so odd to be wealthy and loved. That's not a usual human reaction. And then my note tied to why I think the Berkshire Letters are the greatest content marketing of all time. And I go, I wonder if this is because they spent so much time teaching others. So when you listen to Choir, you guys are teaching, right? Berkshire, I'm going to go to Paul Graham too. Berkshire, they're teaching.

You could just not read a book and just read Berkshire's Let and you're going to get a fantastic education, right? And then in there it's like, oh, by the way, we'd like to be the buyers of choice. So if you happen to know of this business, like this business that you want to get your hands on, like, you know, and you care about it and he does this excellent product differentiation, call me. The greatest content market. What is, like how much money do they make off of that and obviously um and i think this is probably i don't even know if it's on the list of things that they care about but like it's also marketing for their businesses like totally i have geico car insurance because it's a berkshire hathaway company this is how we talked i'm drinking i feel an extra kinship for brooks running shoes absolutely i'm wearing brooks right

now okay so i'm wearing our arena shoes. There you go. I changed out. I was in a polo hoodie right before I came over. I watched a documentary on Ralph Lauren. I just did a podcast. I just listened to your episode. Yeah, I think it's episode 288.

I wonder if I'm right. It is good. Let's see if I'm right, though. Let's see if I'm right. I could be wrong. I could be full of crap. It's 288. Okay.

But before that, I had watched a documentary on him, like, years ago, and I found out that he did the, I always go to Ben for the proper pronunciation. Like, we'll do the same podcast. I will, I say, like, Akio Morita. And then he's like, Akio Morita. I'm like, all right. I go with Ben. I choose Ben. Oh, you get the, I will give you the correct American pronunciation of something.

And it's unclear if it's actually right or not. So, he did the same thing that Akio did. You knowio did. They were struggling in the early days of Sony. They get this huge order. They're like, we're going to take 100,000 units or whatever it is, but take off Sony and put on our name. And Akio's like, we have no money. But he refused to do that because he's like, I'm not building your company. I'm building mine. I love that entrepreneurial, bullheaded tendency. Same thing with Ralph. Ralph was broke. him and his wife are living in a house our apartment with a train running over on top of them they're sleeping on a mattress and he's making ties and bloomingdale's like we'll take them we love them take that name off you're gonna be our house brand yeah and he packs up his ties he's like

i'm not here to build your brand i'm here to build mine like that so that which is funny because later in life like he would make so much money on just licensing out his brand. He's like, I don't even make any of the products. I literally just licensed the brand. Hearing that made me buy more polo clothes. Hearing your affinity for Geico makes you buy Geico. The advertisers you haven't acquired because they love you, your, your audience, if you, I know you guys vet them and like, like you have a ton of people that want to advertise that you don't let, it's like you have a ton of people that want to uh advertise that you don't let it's like your relation that goodwill that you're building up

the goodwill that that buffett built up another the second maybe most and by the way there's a litmus test for that it's does the acquired brit like i want to only work with sponsors that i want to so full-throatedly endorse that I feel the acquired brand gets stronger by working with them. And like, if you can actually just keep doing that durably, I think that is like an amazing way to build a brand. And you know, we try, it doesn't always work. And sometimes we just don't sell ad slots because we're like, well, the bar's here. Long-term. Like, okay, I miss a week on advertising. It doesn't matter. I'm doing this for you. When we get on the phone, the first time we ever talked, do you guys love podcasting?

I love podcasting. You're going to do it forever? We're going to do it forever. We say the same thing. Right, right, right. It's like one week. We could do this for another 40 years. Right.

So the same thing. It's like the same goodwill that you're talking about. It's why I'm drinking. I don't even drink energy drinks, right? But the format for Founders. You showed up with five Jocko ghosts. This is the only energy drink I found, and I only found it because I was driving home on Thanksgiving,

and all the coffee shops are closed, and I heard Jocko's podcast, and I know he has this, and he says he's in Wawa's, and I was like, wait, there's a Wawa on the turnpike. I was like, I can just go there. Like, they're there, and I bought them, and then I was wired for the whole drive home. I was like, oh, they go there. Like, they're there. And I bought them. And then I was wired for the whole drive home.

I was like, oh, they work, man. This is fantastic. But the point there is like, it's not like when I went to the energy drink aisle, I was like, oh, maybe I'll do Rockstar or Monster. It's like, no, they didn't make a podcast that I love. Jocko made a podcast I love. You were not evaluating energy drinks at that point in your- The format for our founders I got from Jocko. I found his podcast because he was on Tim Ferriss's.

His podcast at the very beginning was just him reading books for an hour hour and a half saying oh I like this section I didn't know that yeah and he does it for autobiographies for military people

I was like oh I should do this for autobiographies of founders and everything else so it's a combination of ideas the second best version and you guys know this

more than me because it's your world and I don't know anything I had spent three weeks reading Paul Graham's essays. Paul Graham's essays changed my life. Also, content marketing. Yeah, everything totally changed my life.

So we're going to get there. The reason to finally jump and dedicate my life to Founders came, my wife was sleeping in bed next to me. I'm up late at night. I read Paul Graham's essay, How to Do What You Love. I talk about this on episode 275, 76, and 77. Those are right. I know that for sure.

Are the three Paul Graham episodes I did. I talk about this snap, how he changed my, that episode changed my life, or that essay changed my life in 275. So then I'm re, so I spent three weeks going through every single one of his essays. So something his new essays lack that they had before,

he used to have this bright orange box at the top. It says, do you want to start a startup? Apply to Y Combinator. Apply to Y Combinator. Yeah. And so I was like, think about, so again, it's not like you went, I thought about this, like what is the founder's version of Y Combinator? What is the acquired version of Y Combinator? You have to be very careful who you partner with and what you're doing. So I was like, what is the orange box? It's not like you go to Paul Graham's and he's got 10 banner ads. He's just like, no. Yeah, he worked for Yahoo. He knows that doesn't work. Your attention is here. And it's like, he didn't know that starting Y Combinator,

you can go back and read his essays about it, watch his interviews. He had no clue. Just like Charlie told me. He's like, no, I did not expect to build one of those. It was called the Summer Founders Program. You know, it wasn't even. That's the best thing about learning about the company and founder history. It's like they didn't, there's no way when you could interview Sam Walton when he's, his shoes, the bottom of his shoes has watermelon and donkey crap. He's not gonna be like, hey guys, I'm the richest man in the world. Right. Yeah. And so I love this idea of, hey, all of these discussions about the business benefit all comes from, it's the byproduct of educating people,

sharing people. That's why people love Charlie and Warren White, all three of us love them. How much have us three learned from them? Right. So much. Yeah. This is such a good point. I wanted to cry when i met him because of their content marketing i mean it sounds trite but like his lessons changed my life they're they're gonna change the trajectory of my kids lives yeah like that is and you know he probably hears that a million times a day but it doesn't matter it's like i got a chance to tell him that that's it it is crazy yeah he he educated america on investing while still managing to do it better than anyone else there was some funny things about that too where um he says like you know

they get he says something like well you know they're completely he says you both uh in your episode you talk about snowball snowball has that that quote from buffett in there he talks about it's really important to have an inner scorecard or an outer scorecard inner scorecard is his dad it's like i'm doing this because i know it's good outer scorecard is like i'm doing this what are the people gonna think about me newsflash no one's thinking about you they think about themselves so outer scorecard people cannot have like it's almost really hard to have a uh a happy life having an outer scorecard i like charlie's description of that better he says like he uh i I think it was Andrew that asked him the question. Maybe Chris asked him the question.

He's like, were you driven to succeed to impress your dad or your mom? It was a great question. He goes, no. He goes, I had an interclock. He goes, I have an interclock and I always had an interclock. I did this because I wanted to do it.

And he goes, and they're like, do you think Buffett's like that? He goes, Buffett has an interclock too. And it's just like this idea where they did it their way regardless. They don't care what other people think. He said this about the fact that they keep some of their wholly owned businesses. And like, oh, the profits are less. So they kind of just let them run out.

And like, they'll just keep the cash. And then people are like, oh, you should invest the cash. And he's just like, no, because we're opportunists. We're individual opportunity driven is the line that he has about that. Right. You were going somewhere, David, earlier with the discussion of being a professional investor and how it's less differentiated than it's ever been before. Well, where I was going with it was, I bet, look at the reaction on Twitter and elsewhere and I think in much of the country to what's happened with the Silicon Valley Bank situation. Not that this is a current events podcast, but like.

It's also, by the time this comes out, going to be two weeks. It's going to be old news, right? Hopefully things will just be calm and settled down and there'll be no more impending crises. Yeah, right. But another one's coming eventually. Right. Just like Charlie says, you're going to have another unintended problem a year from now. Yep.

I think you are right, Ben, that just having capital to invest will be differentiating going forward. However, I think the aggregate brand and reputation of the venture industry has taken a massive hit. Totally. Massive hit over the last several years. And you're not holding up SVB. And it just keeps going down. No, no. SVB is revealing to how other people think of Silicon Valley.

What I'm specifically referring to is VC's behavior and reactions on Twitter over the past week. But that's just emblematic of the direction things have been going for years now. And part of it's related to tech in general, but I think there's a specific, maybe hatred is strong, but brand decline of the venture capital industry. Yeah, I agree with that. Tie it to differentiation among venture firms. So yes, as the market goes down, having capital will be differentiating and the number of participants will go down in the industry and whatnot. But how do you stand out in this market? If in aggregate, your industry is thought less of

and people don't want to work with you. Right. How do you turn that tide? Right. Yeah, if the next Sam Walton has the opportunity to raise venture capital dollars and he's like, you know what, I think I would rather just figure it out another way and not build in that ecosystem. I think there are a lot of people out there right now who want to start businesses and are like,

I'm not going to raise venture capital because F that and I don't need to. And it was a lie that I needed to. Right. Can I tell you from the founder's perspective, because I talked to a ton of founders. I'm going to go down, I think, well, we'll see, talking to more founders than any non-VC, right? I get offers all the time like, hey, you want to invest in my company? I've said no to all of them. Just because I'm like, dude, I'm focused on founders. Like I don't care about anything about my podcast. And so we have these conversations and it's just like what VCs don't understand is like how much founders hate them. They like, they hate them and it's not, they hate the good ones. They love the good ones. Right. Like, I'm not going to say some of the brands that I've heard about, they're like, oh

no, like we've raised money from a bunch of people. They're good. They don't mess with us. But if we ask a question or we need something, they jump on it, you know? And the problem is, this is not like, it's, it's a natural like distribution of any industry. Like there's going to be crappy founders and great founders. There's gonna be crappy investors and great investors. And so I really think it ties back to the, the, the principle that Buffett and Munger built their business on is like only associating themselves with the best people and the best companies. And that solves so much other problems.

So yeah, my issue is like, there's a lot of VCs in my audience too. And they're nice people. Don't get me wrong, right? Some of them I've talked to, it was just like, who gave you money to invest? Like, what is going on here? But what I don't like is like, the best ones, like this is what I like about Patrick, right?

If you talk to the people that Patrick has invested in, he doesn't like, here's a list of 10 things I took two minutes to think about. He's asking questions. He does exactly what he does on his show. He asks questions. And if you need something, like I'll do whatever I can because he's got a good network and help. No, but he's certainly not.

He's like, if I have to tell the founder what to do, then why did I invest in it? That doesn't make any sense. So what happens is I'll get these emails. I love your show, et cetera, et cetera. Here's 10 ideas for you. And it's just like you read them. It's like you hired an assistant or a researcher.

Maybe you wrote this yourself. You thought about this for 30 minutes. I think about this all day, every day. I've thought about this every day for years, man. That's not helpful. What are you doing? you're just making, I have a lower opinion of you because like this is a dumb idea. And the only way about that is like, do you know who Bryce Roberts is? Yeah. Okay. So he has, this is again, I've never raised venture capital. I've never made a venture capital investment, but I talked to a ton of founders, and he has the greatest description.

He's like, what is the product that founders are buying from VCs? It's not money, because everybody's got money. Well, you used to have money. Yeah, I guess you used to. But still, the VC- You're good, though. There's still a lot of people that have money. There's still going to be investments made in markets.

Compared to venture in the 70s, yes. He said two words, improved odds. That is the best, from a founder's perspective, that is the best description. It's like, if I take investment from you as opposed to this other guy over here, this other girl over there, like who is going to be,

founders, all they care about is, can you help my company succeed? Is it more likely that my company succeeds? I'm dedicating my life to this, man. This is not a game. Like, can you make my company succeed? And sometimes you can do it with money, sometimes you can network. There's other people sitting right across from me that could probably

help with distribution that is actually value-added. That is the difference. If I was going to be a venture capitalist, and God knows I would not be, I would just start a podcast. And then I would do it for six years. And I would get really valuable. And then my inbox is full of people. I don't have deal flow. This is what Patrick is doing. Yeah, it comes inbound. I have a friend, Chris Powers. He syndicates real estate investment.

Rich people like to invest in real estate. There's all these tax benefits. And he's got, he says, David, even with like, and this guy's done like, I think he's got either a billion or $2 billion of industrial class real estate under management right now. And he's like, even, he's like, David, I just was interviewing and doing my podcast. Again, same thing, educational, interviewing people operating in the real estate industry and interviewing founders. And just doing it because he liked to do it. He wanted to talk to the people, happened to press record, put it out there, never really

promoted it. He's like, even with my small audience, he he goes i've raised he goes it goes it changes the dynamic from hey i'm chris i'm sitting on outbound hey i'm chris this is what i do this is like can we talk can we set up a meeting to oh chris love your podcast how can i get five million in your fund yep it reverses it because you know totally they get to know you as a person this is what i don't like also and it shortcuts the relationship but it's you just said it's a relationship right which i think there's too much of this like calendar like tetris that no offense that venture capitalists play because they try to do with me where our founders do this too where they're like hey love your show love to get to talk to you uh can we

talk and i reply back yeah let's set something up then i get like then they're like i'm like routed to an assistant and then it's like oh you uh, how about six weeks from now? Mr. Joe Smough has 30 minutes, three weeks from now. And I've done this like once or twice. And now my response is that's no way to build a relationship. Here's my phone number. Just text or call me when, when you're free. I'm not a 30 minute block in your calendar. And if we have the inbound that all three get, it's like, I'm already almost hitting a limit to how many deep relationships I can build. So I'd rather, instead of talking to a million people, I'm not a fester. Instead of talking to a million people for 15 minutes, I'd rather talk to five or 10 people over and over and over and over again. That's what Charlie, Charlie talked a lot about this. And like, you've rubbed off on me

a lot on this. Like I have changed my mindset and my daily behavior hugely because of our conversations. Charlie and Warren. It's just like they built relationships. They found people they like, admired, and trust. They repeat like, admire, and trust over and over again in the letters and their talks. And then they just did business with them forever. Yep. It's not this wide but shallow. And that's where you get the bad behavior. And anybody that's high quality can see through it and it's not going to work with you. And you're where you get the bad behavior. And anybody that's high quality can see through it and it's not going to work with you. And you're only going to succeed, like you guys,

if your business is parallel, you're only going to succeed if you get the very best ones. It's interesting, though. Man, just like so much in life, Warren and Charlie, really, they're just so often right. And if you think about, if you buy the premise that the aggregate opinion of the venture capital industry has declined a lot. It's meaningfully worse.

It may continue to decline. Whether it does or doesn't, it's meaningfully worse than it used to be. What have Warren and Charlie done? And to your point about the best content marketing ever, what is what they do? It's a combination of a hedge fund and a private equity firm. What is the aggregate opinion, public opinion of hedge funds, managers, and private equity firms over the last 50 years? Nothing but down. What is the aggregate opinion of Berkshire?

Nothing but up. It's amazing. This is one advantage that I have, the fact that I'm not an investor. So I don't have to keep up on like, to some degree, venture capitalists have to know what's going on. And I close myself off. I was having dinner with Sam and his wife, and his wife was asking me, hey, do you know about this person?

Oh, no. Do you know about this? And Sam's like, he's got a very limited... He said it nicely. He's like, you can ask about books, but this dude's not watching TV. He's not doing any other stuff, right? We keep him in a hot out back.

And the good thing about that, though, is somebody actually, so essentially the way I use Twitter or any social media is I put out little snippets from my podcast.

You put out a lot on Twitter. In text, though, form, right? Yeah. Which has been really working for you. I'm going to read something

that has over a million views in 24 hours because everything's going on and because I just had dinner with Charlie. So I'm going to read this and then I'll go back to the is an amazing tweet by the way so uh i go charlie munger tells a story about human nature now i didn't put this because of the bank

run like i was just thinking i was like oh this is i was reading my highlights post this it like with regards to the bank run no no i remember i reread my highlights every day yeah and so when i reread my what my twitter is like when i reread highlights like oh that. Yeah. And so when I reread my highlights, what my Twitter is, is when I reread highlights, it's like, oh, that's a good one. I just put it on Twitter. Oh, my God. Then you have just the greatest timing in history. Yeah, exactly. Well, it wasn't intentionally. I knew it was going on,

but it never said, oh, let me, I need an SVB tweet. I don't have any money in SVB. Whatever. So it goes, Charlie Munger tells a story about human nature. And then this is all Charlie speaking. One of my favorite stories is about the little boy in Texas.

The teacher asked the class, if there are nine sheep in a pen and one jumps out, how many are left? And everybody got the answer right, meaning eight, right? Except this little boy who said, none of them are left. And the teacher said, you don't understand arithmetic. And the little boy said, no teacher, you don't understand sheep. And so. So effing good. How, okay. When you were in the room with Charlie for several hours, how did, like, in natural conversation, are they just pulling out these, like, parables and these fables? Like, you know. Let me, I'm going to ask that question.

The best response to this tweet, I didn't even, I missed it myself. He goes, was the child Charlie himself? And I'm like, oh, my God, that's exactly what he would have done. He would have been the kid. Yeah. done. He would have been the kid. Yeah. Totally. He would have been the kid. So the reason I think it's so powerful, like the storytelling ability you guys have, how

I try to break down things to aphorisms. You ask like, why is this guy on my phone? Right? I only think in stories. I think people only learn through stories and then one liners. Right? That's why Charlie, why is Charlie, David Ogilvie. That idea is like, he says it in a creative way.

Yeah. And you remember fur Charlie Munger says hey if you don't learn probability you're going to go through life with a as a one-legged one-legged man and ass kicking contest so good so you laugh and then you think about it it's like oh what is it like I'm gonna get my ass kicked like so that's the way um this is here because it's Ernest Shackleton his family motto was by endurance we conquer so we're in the podcast business uh you know people like you can't do podcasts there's like two million of them it's like dude there's like 70 or 80 percent of them that have quit 98 percent in the business podcast right now less me and patrick were just talking about this i just saw him in person in miami and we were talking and i showed him this

is like dude uh for podcasts like me and patrick's and and yours, business categorize in business, have at least 10 episodes, and I think release at least once a week. You guys, I think, are release schedules less than that, right? Two weeks? Every two or three. So those three categories is like – But in terms of minutes of content per week, we're the same as everybody else. But like that was one thing. Like they release once a week, right?

18,000. that was one thing like they release once a week right um 18 000 and the business category is the second most popular podcast like the second most populated podcast category behind and i go you know the first spirituality faith yeah oh true crime has fallen off then uh yeah no thankfully so this is i'm gonna start so there's a thing about that where i heard somebody said they're like founders is like church for entrepreneurs. And I might start dropping podcasts on Sunday. And no, no, I'm not kidding. And if I do video, I swear to God, I went and looked.

I looked at pulpits. I was like, I'm not going to get a pulpit. I swear to God. I swear to God. You went crucifix shopping. I'm not going to get a desk. Like think about my mom was like fundamentals christian stuff and like i had to go to church my whole life and it's just like this is pretty

crazy like like not in a bad way i don't mean that the majority of it's like they're learning from the same book every week over and over again the stories you can tell are limitless it's one book i can do the same thing i have access to all the books in the world like i can do that so i do think there's an element of totally five years from now people are going to be the books in the world. I can do that. So I do think there's an element of- Totally. Five years from now, people are going to be like, this is the moment where David started the cult. It's right here on video. We're documenting it. Cults are the best businesses, though. A hundred percent.

If you listen to my episode, In and Out, episode 244. Oh, yeah. There's no way I got that right, by the way. Oh, now we get it. I did that- You keep talking. I'll look up if you got this right. I did that episode because it's 240. Of course. Is it?

Oh, my God. I read that book because the best businesses in the world are cults. That's what the founder of Trader Joe's, he wrote his autobiography. He said that Trader Joe's was a cult for the overeducated and underpaid. Right. And it's not to say that like cults are amazing businesses. That's not what you're saying. You're saying the very best businesses are cheerful. In-N-Out calls them, they use this terminology in their business, cheerful cult. It's a positive cult. I'm not talking about Jonestown, let's get together

and freaking drink mass suicide. No, no. I'm talking things that hopefully you're building a product that's good for the world. We had Gary Tan on back in the day and he was talking about Palantir at the very beginning and he was like, oh, Palantir was a cult. That's why it worked. Well, this idea also influenced me is Zero to One, Peter Thiel's book. It's like, you know, he says that he's like the best businesses, like startups look like cults. You have to inspire emotion in people. Otherwise, like you just, you can't stand out in the world. And you certainly can't have repeat behavior and in a sea of choices for someone to keep choosing you over and over and over again. It's like how founders have to be weird.

Nothing interesting was created by ordinary people. But I have to be intentional about this. I'm glad you said, oh, this is where we get it on camera and on recording that David started his cult. I go crazy. People start talking about me. A bunch of them say, David's too obsessed with podcasts. And I'm like, I'm glad they say that because even now. You're like, thank you.

That's a compliment. No, it's like I see an opportunity that other people don't, which is the same thing in the book. So I think podcasts in general are just fun to make and I'm obsessed with it, but they're also going to be wonderful businesses because they're prone to be cheerful cults. And how do you know that you have a cult? You just Google and see if the people have tattooed themselves with the brand. How many people are walking around with a Joe Rogan's face on his tattoo or a Joe Rogan face tattoo on their skin? A ton of them. Really? Yes. How many people have tattoos of the Apple logo? A ton of them. There's how many people have tattoos of the apple apple logo

there's an insane number with uh mario we learned this in the nintendo mario tesla in and out there's a ton of dude i like cheeseburgers are my favorite meal i'm not tattooing an in and out logo on my arm dude you take another level and you see this over and over and over again and so when i analyze businesses i i'm not just doing this. It's not a game to me. It's like, oh, can I use these ideas in building my business? And Warren Buffett says the greatest thing, and this, I think, speaks to why you guys are so like, hey, we know how big our audience is and we're going to take this seriously. Seriously, Warren goes, a brand is a promise.

That's the best description of a brand. It's just like I talked about the fact that I stayed in this hotel brand. I'm not going to say who it is. In Austin, I loved it. I stayed in Santa Monica. I loved it. I found out they had one in San Francisco. I didn't check the reviews.

You came here and they broke their promise. I told you to stay with us. Yes. And that's the biggest thing. A brand was a promise. I know this is going to be excellent. The hotel is fine. It is in like, it's in the tenderloin.

It's like a- Not a place you want to stay no i like if i wasn't traveling alone there's no way i'd let my wife this is the major misconception about san francisco every many people who don't live here think that it's you know an absolute hellhole and wasteland a specific part of it is yeah but like there are other and unfortunately that part is mostly where the hotels are. Yeah, which is not good for the city. No, it's terrible for the city. I'm staying with you or I'd stay in, like I'd stay out in Silicon Valley.

Like I've stayed at the Rosewood, which is really nice. Yeah, that is not the tenderloin. The most expensive hotel, which is good. I didn't pay for it. No one ever does. That's the whole business model. I didn't know how much it was. It was really nice though.

I got to thank that person. Yeah, so, again, I don't mean it in like a – but I am very intentional. Like, hey, I'm not going to break my promise. I want you to know, and you guys do the same thing. It's like if I press play on an acquired episode, this is why I like Dan Carlin is, you know, I read one book an episode. He reads like 30. He only does two a year or one a year. Maybe one a year.

But, like, I know there's no way I'm going to press play. It's going to be good. And he didn't do the work necessary. That's what we feel. We all feel. I mean, in our own ways, we all definitely feel that about what we're doing. Can I get some feedback? Like, how can we make Acquired better?

Or have you ever had moments where you like paused an episode and were like, oh, I want to talk to Ben and David about this right now because I have some feedback? No. You probably just text us if you did. No, but I would, first of all. Or the model, not necessarily just the content. No, what you guys said on your Benchmark Dinner episode, I think was, you know, there's a few podcasters. I was having this conversation with Sam yesterday. There's a few podcasters I was having this conversation with Sam yesterday there's a few podcasters that

they know what they're doing and they know what their position in the market is, how they're thinking about it and I'm not going to say who, but you guys hit it, what makes you special, it's the Edwin Land thing don't do anything somebody else can do where you said your marquee thing is these super, like Blake made

the funny, Blake Robbins said the funny thing on Twitter I saw, I loved it, he's like only a choir could say all right let's bring this home and so an hour and a half left that's your brand people know totally yeah and i think what you're doing here with like the sessions is like a way to also it's like there's no you can't increase your the amount of episodes that you can do because they take so much work to do but you also have a way to surface all this information that you guys have that's valuable to other people in different formats. We were talking about this a little bit before, which I hate saying we were talking about

this before we were recording this. Why didn't we just record? But you were also thinking about potentially doing something similar. Yeah. And there's like... Not now. Not now. Years from now.

Yeah. But for the core episodes we spend you know so much time preparing but then for stuff like this we don't prepare at all because our whole career is does this make sense like what what is the right number and format of sessions because this is the second session like We're still figuring sessions out. In your dream world as an acquired listener, what do sessions look like? I mean, your sessions should replace your interviews. Anything that's a non-acquired, long, deep talk, just make them a session. There's enough people interviewing founders and investors, but we need more conversations. So if I ever did, people are like, if you ever do an interview show,

first of all, I wouldn't do an interview show. Because interview is a skill. It looks easy. I always tell Patrick, Patrick, you're world class at this, dude. You have, you wield, because you've been on the show. Every week and now twice a week for eight, nine years. And he's just, I like to read. He likes to ask questions. So therefore, our formats match the personality, right?

And so what I tell him is like, I've been on the other side of it. It's like, you can tell it's not, he doesn't have a list of questions in front of him because you can hell his good question just came off of response of what like a lot of people like um and it's fine but like the tyler cowan thing where he just like he has his questions and you just said something interesting he's not going to follow up and he's going to go on the next question it feels very odd because you're like are you guys not having a conversation like no they're not there's that guy like left you an opening and how did you not take that opening they're not so but tyler you have to do let's tie this to jay-z and jay cole and the answer question also about like

i'm glad you guys are so much nicer we're like do you have any feedback because like i i can't stand feedback we're like not in the sense of like like i told you i text you guys this one time we're like uh one guy was like hey i don't like that you reference the like the superpower of the show is that i tie it's not like the episode on ralph lauren is going to tell you how ralph thinks like andrew carnegie and rockefeller and bezos and it's like you literally know all your episode numbers by heart like so i to me it's just one large conversation the history on history's greatest entrepreneurs that's that's how it is to me it just happens to be separated separated. And so I text you and this guy's like, could you save that for at the end and just do it

like a carve out like acquired? And I was like, don't listen to acquired. No, I'm not going to. I have a singular vision for how this is going to go. And that's why I own and control and operate the entire thing. It's even further than that. It's like, I'm not putting on a show. Like there's a lot I loved Anthony Bourdain when he was alive I read his books he had a huge influence on me

like anytime I traveled to a place that he went to I'd go and watch it have you done an episode on him? 219 there's no way that's right there's no way

keep going there's no way that's right fact checkers it's called The Oral Biography that format should be done more where his assistant had interviewed an assistant

a friend had interviewed a bunch of people actually knew tony and were there in his last days and then she used to organize that interview into uh this biography called uh bourdain the definitive oral biography i think um and is it 219 it's 219 and so um and so, where was I going with that? I went on a digression. But oh, so there's a line in the book I love. It says the line between Tony and the show is non-existent. Yeah. Right?

That's why people like, I hear a lot of people talk about podcasting. It's like, oh, you don't actually know what the superpower of podcasting is. Right? Where it's like, to me, one of the superpowers of podcasting is it's authenticity scaled. Right? Yes. When I meet with founders that listen to founders founders and we have a three-hour dinner, they all say the same thing.

They're like, this is like a three-hour episode of Founders. It's like the same person there, right? Well, and I think that that is a thing that you did really well and we sort of accidentally did well. But I realized over time why that makes both of the things we've built as durable as they are. A lot of people play characters on the internet. Which in other mediums is an easy trap to fall into. And it's a way to catapult growth.

If you adopt a polarizing character, you can get a bunch of followers. There's a lot of dividends that pay to it, but it's exhausting to maintain over time. And it has a conflict where when people meet you in real life, they're like, oh, weird. And so when you actually are just yourself, it's going to probably grow more slowly because I'm not as polarizing. It would be horrifying to live as a polarizing character that you play on the internet in real life also and so you have this more like slow organic growth path um but like it is there is this cool byproduct now where like i sit down with someone and they're like yep exactly the same

as i expected this is why i said have blake robbins on here because he gave me the dynamic that spectrum that he talks about blake is a super smart person in general but he's like the way you think about this is there's a spectrum this is not my idea this is blake's spectrum because i'm one of the it's like how much time do people spend with you right he's like on one end of the spectrum you have these like 30 second tiktokers that dance right and then all the way on the other end of the spectrum as you move down they spend more time with you all the way down the spectrum you have the twitch streamers right which he helped incubate um 100 thieves 40 thieves 100 thieves where they're spending like 40 hours or 50 hours a week with you right he goes david you're like one you're not they don't spend 40 hours with you

but you're one click one click to the left yeah and they're gonna wind up spending 10 20 100 200 hours with you and you keep moving down and like let's say you do 10 minute youtube videos you know it's like the deeper you go down there it's why when i think the guy's name is nadeshot when like 100 thieves has a new product and he announces it you'll see a line down the block because hundreds of thousands of people have spent all their time with them and so it's like oh nadeshot has something to all come down here and you see this over and over again. And then Blake says you could have a TikTok

that has 10 million followers, yet they can't even get 3,000 people to show up somewhere. And so I think that is the way to think about it. So that's algorithmic throttling too. TikTok is almost a zero signal if somebody follows you. It's all views. It doesn't matter or not. It doesn't actually matter.

Or YouTube. It's like, oh, they subscribe to your channel. Maybe that'll come up in one of the top eight videos that shows up at the top of the screen of what they should watch next, but maybe not. So my point in all that is if they're spending a lot of time with you, and I love, this is my flip of what Charlie Munger says, that you need to learn the big ideas in the main domains like physics, psychology because they carry the most freight. I flip that to time carries the most weight. As long as what we're doing,

you said we're not playing characters. We are passionately interested in this. We're not going to quit. We do this over a long period of time. You'll get what you deserve. You'll get the audience you deserve. You'll get the business opportunities and everything else. Time carries the most weight. I know I'm not not going to quit you're going to have to pry the microphone from my cold dead hand and i'm just going to let the chips fall where they are and

that doesn't mean i'm like lollygagging here like i'm on it seven days a week i'm i'm going to try to work myself in a position so it's something i learned from um from um steve jobs when he came back to apple right and he's like like, people hear that speech he gives, which is fantastic. He's like wearing shorts. And he's like, and it's like, I don't even know if he's in the turtleneck yet, but he mentions like what they're gonna do.

And everybody focused on the fact that he's like, we're gonna, you know, there's no sex in the products anymore. And we're gonna do the four quadrant thing. A lot of people in the technology industry, particularly know that speech and like, yeah, let's cut the fat and like put all of our A players, fire the B and C players, put all of our A players on these four products that we're going to make right but they miss desktop laptop high-end yeah consumer and pro for both laptop

and desktop those are four categories right they miss what he said earlier when he talks about nike he's just like marketing he's like apple sucks at marketing we have to be a great marketing company and so he said something where I read the quote and then my reinterpretation of this, right? And people don't know that. It's in Ken's, no, it's in this book called Insanely Simple. I think that guy's name is Ken Siegel. And he's like, he was an ad guy at a company for Apple.

And he's like- TWBA Chiat Day. It was the ad agency. So he goes, and every Wednesday uh actions express priority so there's another maximum right he's like i don't care what people say i care like what they do so when people ask me like first people you talk to the founders like hey like what would you do about this i never answer is like well david senra would do this i'd say hey well charlie munger would tell you this or steve jobs would do this or like hey i heard a story about here because like my opinion is useless

it's you know my opinion on business building and how I build my business. It doesn't matter what I say. It's like, how is he approaching founders? Like, why is he making decisions? That's the important part, right? And so Steve told you that marketing was important to his actions because every Wednesday at like 3 o'clock or I forgot the time. They had like a three-hour meeting. He would approve, have to approve every single piece of advertising marketing that went out for Apple.

There's not a billboard in Kentucky that went out without him saying, yes, it's going to go out. Right. And so in that speech, when you're, if you actually listen to what he's saying, he's like, listen, I feel that the products we're making in Apple make people's lives better. I want, he says this line, he goes, I want everybody in the world to own an Apple device. We know that it's not going to happen because it's so expensive. But he goes, and to do that, we have to get really good at marketing. So my interpretation of that on the podcast, what I said is like,

if you feel your product can improve people's lives, I think you guys already know because you get thousands of messages, just like I do, that yes, listening to a choir, listening to founders will improve people's lives and work, right? Then you have a moral obligation

to get good at marketing. All that means is not get good at marketing so our ad rates are going to go up or that we can be celebrities or anything like that. It's no. So these messages for all these of history's greatest entrepreneurs that are dead, that these ideas don't die with them.

And then therefore, acquired and founders can gather these ideas and push them down the generations. So that's what I mean. It's like, I'm not dilly-dallying. Yes, I'm going to let time carry all the weight, but I'm going to do everything I can so more people at least know. And if you try, founders, you say, oh, this sucks or whatever, whatever. I'm cool with that. But I just want you to have the opportunity to know it exists. And me and you have had these, us three have had these

conversations where it's like, guys, I'm telling you right now, I've said this to you, there's millions of people that would benefit from listening to Choir. They just don't know it exists yet. So we got to come up and find ways to make sure that people know it exists because they will love it and it will make their lives better. Amen. I think there's also, this may be an area, I'm curious what you think about this, where our shows and approaches are a little different. I'm also curious what you, Ben, think about this. A lot of these stories are just incredible stories, too, that are just worth telling just for the sake of the story. Yeah, it's interesting how sometimes I'm like, I'm not sure that we came up with a lesson that I would advise a founder to follow. But I know this was very entertaining and as true as we possibly can make it.

Yeah. And so, like, I think... No, every single episode I've listened to, there's lessons in there. Oh, yeah. I'm not saying there's not lessons. Of course there are. But, like, sometimes we'll do an episode, like... I always feel this way about the most recent episode,

but we just finished making the Nintendo episode, i'm just like you cannot like if you put the best fiction writers in the world that's true together and you said come up with the best like corporate ish story that you could imagine you couldn't write something this good i guess the thing i'm i was referring to is a little bit the the survivorship bias where like someone did something that I would not recommend anyone do and it still worked. But it made for a great story. It's like Morris Chang in TSMC. It's like he invented the notion of a Fabless semiconductor company before there was any demand for that. And then it turned out that his timing was exactly right that like within a couple of years, a whole of you know fabulous companies spun up and wanted to use his foundry uh but like he created a solution in search of a problem and

like no founder should do that but my god did he pull a rabbit out of a hat it's other there's a good number of acquired episodes where i'm like we should be crisper i think about pointing out where like i don't this was inadvisable but amazing that it worked i think that goes back to the game tape analysis where we talked about kobe bryant uh jordan did this too where it's like uh i read this like 600 page biography of kobe and in the biography they interview his high school girlfriend and they're like what was it like to date kobe bryant in high school i'm surprised he had a girlfriend in high school right oh not for very long it's like uh it's like what's it like to date Kobe Bryant in high school? I'm surprised he had a girlfriend in high school, right? Well, not for very long. It's like, what's it like to date Kobe Bryant in high school?

She's like, well, our dates consisted of me going to his house and watching tapes of Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson. That was his whole thing. It's just like, we're not leaving? I'm not taking you out to dinner? Like, we're literally going to watch this thing. And so I think the game tape analysis of that is just like, it is helpful to realize that a lot of this stuff, it's impossible to plan in advance. It's one of the great – I mean Steve Jobs has a ton of great quotes.

Oh, the Stanford speech. He's like – The commencement. He's like connect the dots. It's impossible. You're only going to connect the dots looking backwards. So you have to put something – faith in something. You can call it karma, religion, God, intuition, but you have to do something. I just did

a re-read of Ray Kroc's autobiography, the guy from McDonald's. Again, and it hit me. I've been thinking about the Steve Jobs quote, too. And this is why it's so valuable to read your past highlights. You mentioned this in the McDonald's episode. If you think about this, he's a perfect illustration of what Steve

observed 50 years after Ray dies, for God's sake. He goes from selling paper cups. Paper cups leads him to selling multi-mixers which are like uh make milkshakes right multi-mixers goes like why the hell are you have eight why does these mcdonald brothers out in san bernardino have eight of my machines like people he'd had a hard time selling one that goes to the the franchise system which he didn't even do well then he meets harry somber and then harry somber is like real. You don't even know what business you're in. He's like, you don't build an empire off a 1.4% cut of a 15-cent hamburger. You build an empire by owning the land upon which that hamburger is cooked.

Those five things. There's no... He's selling... From paper cups to real estate. He sold paper cups for 17 years. But he's just like, hey, I have to go on my gut to the point where he got divorced over this. His wife was like, you can't do this, Harry. And he's like, you have to trust my instincts. That's one thing. To what Ben said way back in the beginning of the conversation, that

you're really good at highlighting Ray Kroc. He was a terrible person. And he didn't try to hide it. Most people in autobiographies are trying to hide it. He's literally like, thank you very much, June Martino, my first employee, for missing every single one of your kids' birthdays. You're going to get some stock at McDonald's. It's going to get you rich. But 20 years later, I'm going to fire you. Yeah. And you don't have to put that story in there.

He chose to put that. That's crazy, dude. I said on the podcast it's like listen it's interesting like i'm glad he persisted interesting ideas for business but like not only do i would never want to do business with this guy i wouldn't even want to be his friend yeah like i wouldn't want to do business with steve jobs but i want to be his friend yeah oh yeah he'd be a very interesting person to be friends oh i feel like the opposite what's that like i'd want to do business with steve because you could create incredible things together but I'm not sure you'd want to be friends.

I think the difference is from like a founder's perspective, like there is no working with Steve Jobs. It's working for. You hear the stories of how he even treated like his subcontractor or not like the owners of the companies that contracted. It's like these guys are empire builders. Like they're literally building worlds. They're not used to being like they're charlie was talking about this um because you know he loves like uh lilu the new guy the byd guy do one oh yeah i don't know his name something yeah yeah those guys um he loves lee kuan yu from singapore yeah

and what you realize is like it's like these are founder types but you can is, like, it's, like, these are founder types, but you can't be, like, founders are benevolent dictators, or in some cases they're dictators of their own company. And, like, some people call Lee Kuan Yew, you know, a dictator. It's, like, oh, like, can't do that in America, even if that would be beneficial. But all of them, there's no working with them. They're, like, they're going to be in complete control of the situation, like, even being in the working with them. They're like, they're going to be in complete control of the situation. Like even being in the room with them. Like, I'm not saying they'd be rude or mean, but like you're a subordinate to them. Because everything is in, Ray Kroc, everything is, he says in the book, perfection is difficult.

I'm demanding perfection at McDonald's. I will constantly keep expanding this empire until I die. If you get in my way, I will run you over. He's like, he says in the movie, he's like, if my my competitor was drowning i'd walk over and put a hose in his mouth and he goes and he was on the other end of the call as mcdonald brothers because they're fighting over this he goes would you do the same and the stated thing is it's like you're gonna have to compete on my level or else i will literally destroy you yeah what so So Warren and Charlie are so interesting. I'm trying to decide if they are the complete opposite of that or if they actually are like that just in their own ways.

Every single person has some kind of like their public persona for that level, right? It's not like a podcast where they're going to listen to Joe Rogan for 1,600 episodes. Like, you know who Joe is. You can't hide. He's doing three-hour shows three days a week for 15 years. You have probably a good idea who he is. You see flashes of, like, you know, imperfection like we all have. I don't think you just, you don't get to that level without having, he's got sharp, they all got sharp elbows.

Like, you ever heard, read stories about how Warren negotiates? It's like, 1250 bid. What about 14? 1250 bid. What about 13? 1250 bid. Well, it's because he's already, he spent 10 years analyzing your business and he knows exactly the price that he's going to buy it for. And so now he's telling you the price he's going to buy it for. This wasn't like a new consideration that popped up and he's like, oh, look at this, a business. It's like, no, at the scale, he's operating at, like, he knows all the businesses. Yeah. And

this is from Jim Clayton's autobiography where he buys Clayton Homes. Right. And he even said, like, he wanted to sell to Buffett, he idolized Buffett, and he talks about, like, he wasn't insulting him by any means, but he's like, Warren wants the microphone. And if you're in an

area where Warren doesn't have the microphone, he is not interested. And I've heard that about Warren a lot. You know? Because they're world builders. Like, he runs everything. You think you're going to go from being poor to having $200 billion and not distort your perception of the world? Yeah. It's impossible. Say more about Warren wanting the microphone. What does that mean? Like, literally in person. Like, they would do, I think they were doing,

Jim Clayton was at either, like, an event to talk to the employees or whatever the case was. Like, he, like, Jim wanted to have input. And he's like, Warren would not allow it. Like, he monopolized this.

And I've heard that about Warren. Like, same thing. We're like, you're gonna... There's gotta be an element of him that, you know, loves the shareholder meetings. Oh.

Of course. But he didn't need to do that. He didn't need to do that. He didn't need to do that. He created an event around it. You know how he loves it. He loves having a million people come. Yeah, you know how he loves it because he's still doing it.

Right, right. He doesn't have to do anything in the world that he doesn't want to do. Right. And that's how you know he loves it. They're beyond... I told you, we talked about earlier just how disorienting it must be to have...

And I would love to know this feeling, don't get me wrong, like, have a $200 billion net worth. It's like, you're living life on, like, God mode. Like, it's insane. Like, I was watching this video. I don't know if it's true, but it's like, Jeff Bezos' private jet has its own private jet. Well, his new yacht has a chase yacht. Yeah, so it's like, your yacht has a yacht. I think it's like a guest yacht.

Like, I think it's so that, I mean, he now owns the biggest yacht in the world, and there's a yacht that yeah i think it's like a guest yacht like i think it's so that i mean he has he now owns the biggest yacht in the world and there's a yacht that will sail behind it i've said this maybe uh i don't maybe we'll become so successful someday that i will regret my words on this but i gotta imagine having a yacht is actually not like additive to your life oh so this is a fun i think that's more problems than yeah uh so i'm i think it was ralph lauren uh sold his yacht and it's now a charter yacht because he was like this thing was more work than any of the businesses i've ever run one of the most interesting ideas i've heard and it comes from our mutual friend jeremy who we i think we mentioned earlier in the podcast hopefully we did give him credit i uh actually had was talking to him and david perot

and i'm pretty sure jeremy said this not david but um he's like i would actually make the argument because everybody's like oh like uh what does charlie talk about call the berkshire jet the indefensible indefensible yeah right and then wasn't there a second one the indefensible too before they bought net jets and now it's like we should be on net jets so you look you look at you look at like those like how could you possibly spend

like you know these yachts cost $25,000 an hour to operate in fuel or some crazy number that planes are the same like you know how expensive they are

and Jeremy makes the point and Jeremy knows because he's been buying businesses forever and he's exposed to like great wealth people you know unbelievable amount of wealth

he goes he makes the argument that they're actually underpriced assets and I was like oh tell me more he's like that like great wealth, people, you know, unbelievable amount of wealth. He goes, he makes the argument that they're actually underpriced assets. And I was like, ooh, tell me more. He's like- That's not what I would expect to hear. Yeah. I'm gonna tell you this book that just proved his point.

I actually got a text from Mattel on this. So he's like, they use it not for, you know, like yachting, sitting there sunbathing, right? He's like, they're using it for like customers and potential. And so I had heard this, I'll tell you about how this relates to Invisible Billionaire. So I had heard this, because again, I've never raised money. I don't pay attention to the venture industry. I don't know anything about it. I just have a bunch of founder friends and founders,

tell founders everything. And so I'll have these discussions where they're like, they describe the courting process that they get from some of these well-known, super famous people. And it's like, well, the courting process that they get from some of these well-known, super famous people. And it's like, well, the process you just described to me sounds like an old rich dude that wants to sleep with a young woman. What would you do, right? We actually didn't put it in the episode, but there's a bunch of this in Nintendo history because Warner Brothers bought Atari,

and so Warner Brothers was running Atari as Nintendo was kind of like... And this is how they courted Nolan that's how they courted yeah so that's how Warner Brothers courted Atari and Nolan and then how they tried to court Nintendo was the

private jets the was it was Clint Eastwood they put Clint Eastwood on the private jet with Atari flying coast to coast history doesn't repeat human nature does yeah these founder dudes are

running technology companies now and they're like yeah oh yeah, oh, yeah, I'm not going to name who. They're like, oh, yeah, he gave us, he picked us up in Manhattan in his private helicopter, and we landed at his Hampton estate. Do you think he got the deal? He got the deal. This guy said, hey, come, what are you doing? It's Friday night. What are you doing Saturday morning? Okay, come on my private jet.

I'm going to take you to California with me. Here, you want to stay with your girlfriend at this mansion that I'm not using and you know, X, Y, Z. So Jeremy was explaining to us. It's like the equivalent of like a luxury suite at a sports arena. Yeah, same thing.

It's for getting deals done. But they're operating at a different level where it's like, oh, these influence. And some founders, the smart ones, don't let, like Sam Walton, he's like, don't give us, don't give me a freaking gift. Right, right, right. That's why everything in Bentonville is like,

you can't come in here and woo me. Because they know it works. If you give a Walmart salesperson a bottle of gin or something, it's going to influence them, where he's just like, I want your price. You guys did a great job on your episodes. Like, tell me your lowest price, and then I'm going to go to your, it better be your low price because I'm going to this guy. And if you tell me a dollar, he sells me 98 cents. Don't waste my time. I'm going, I'm not, you're not going to hear from

me again. I have an obligation to the customer to do this, to find the lowest price for them. Yeah. Because everything, his entire thing, the low cost structure thing, that's, that's not, that's a Walton thing. That's a sole price thing. That's a Jeff Bezos thing. That's a Rockefeller thing. That's the most common theme in the history of entrepreneurship. Every single thing, Jeff is like, we're going to have the lowest cost structure. We're going to have a low cost structure. We're going to be efficient. We're going to be efficient. Somewhere along the line, 25 years later, now the technology startups is like, we can just spread money all the time because there's no interest rate. There's just money coming back. He built Amazon at a pretty different time than founders today the business

laws of physics were different when there were interest rates yeah versus when there weren't like he started when there were none that's true and then and then the environment changed as he was building it yep but like you know that while it would have been stupid for amazon to spend $100 million on something, on like crazy marketing activities in 1997. Like you could imagine that in 2018, if all of your competitors had raised a billion dollars and were, you know, trying to chase market share as fast as possible, you either have to exit that market because you're going to lose or play that game on the field. Or find, even better, find a different way. Like be more resourceful.

But like be more resourceful. It's like it's easy to say, but like hiring all, when all your competitors are hiring all the best engineers by throwing a million dollars a year at them, like you're just not going to be able to build a good product if you don't try to play that game also. Yeah, for sure. But like the whole thing, like when Peter Thiel says this in his book, Paul Graham says it, it's just like startups don't have the advantage, right, of you're not going to outspend Microsoft or Netflix. So you got to find underdeveloped talent, right?

You got to find these people that if they were decredentialed or if they were the well-knowns, then they're going to go take, you're going to work for me $80,000 and some stock options or go make a million dollars a year at Netflix. Like they're going to, so that's the whole thing. It's like, you're not going to win unless you are capable of finding under about time. Silicon Valley used to be able to build a high growth and profitable startups. Well, the rule used to be, you couldn't go public until you had over a hundred million dollars in revenue and you were profitable. Like if you didn't hit both, check both of those boxes, you weren't going to IPO. And in 2021, of all the companies that went public,

it had to be single digit percentage that were profitable. Were any of them? Yeah, I don't know. It's crazy. The game just changes. Well, to your point, if you have free money, you know, the money supply grass like it spans, it's raining down. That's going to build. Did you listen to Doug Leone on, I know you guys had him on your show, but did you hear him on invest like the best yeah he was great like he said he's like this he was telling crazy stories i loved everything about that guy i loved him when i heard him on your podcast too it was like that tough love this is what i'm into right and he still has i i think maybe my favorite quote of all favorite quote uh said live on an acquired podcast of you could

burn cigarettes in our arms and we wouldn't flinch. And then he has a great line. He's like, I want you to know we were killers. We weren't killers to make the most money. We were killers to get the job done. But he made the point, and very few people probably know more about the venture industry than that guy, right? I would imagine he's up there. And he's like, of course. You have money raining down.

He didn't use that word. He's like, it just creates bad habits. Yeah. It is crazy how many things in my life I falsely attributed to something that were not just interest rates. Like so many things. The answer is just like, oh, it is that way because we live in a zero interest rate environment. And I, the human brain likes to tell stories. And at the end of the day, it's like, things are the way they are because of mean reversion and what the current interest rate climate is. I wish – I'm going to pull up something. Like this is what I mean.

It goes back to Buffett. Like if you just – we should have – I wish I knew this. I had read this. I didn't remember it though. This is Warren Buffett on interest rates, right? He says – Oh, is this from – Laws of Gravity.

In Snowball? No, this is from his shareholder letters. He said it in 84, 88, something like this. I think the intro to Snowball, I think the scene that opened the vignette that opens it, is Sun Valley right before the tech bubble burst. Oh, no, this is like a decade and a half before. Oh, okay, okay. This is why it's like so, it's like god like you could have made you such better decisions i could have made such better decisions

if you had just known this and he had known it for 40 years before it happened i posted this um on twitter and i opened up the next day i'm like why does this have two and a half million views it's like elon replied he goes yep i was like oh okay i He goes, yep. I was like, oh, okay. I was like, what the, like, what the, like, damn, you people really like interest rates. It's all grand replies on steroids. So I go, Warren Buffett on interest rates. And the headline is they power everything in the economic universe. So that was what Elon was responding up to. And this is Warren writing in the eighties. The value of every, to your, exactly what you're saying. The value of every business, the value of a farm, an apartment house, or any other economic asset is 100% sensitive to interest rates. That's because all you're doing

when you're investing is transferring money to someone now in exchange for a stream of money, which you expect to come back in the future. And the higher the interest rates are, the less that present value will be. This is fantastic. Interest rates are to asset prices prices sort of like gravity is to an apple yeah when interest rates are low there is little gravitational pull on on asset prices we just lived through this right total when interest when interest book yeah when interest rates are low there is little gravitational pull on asset prices interest rates power everything in the economic universe because i found that because all this this remember this inflation went crazy like a year or two ago, whatever. And I was like, okay.

Every time that happens, all I do is I have, you can buy the Kindle version of Buffett's shareholder letters for like two bucks. I know, it's crazy. And I search it for like interest rates, inflation. And I just go and I read, okay. You made a billion dollars off that $2 purchase. There you go. And so, like you'll say, okay, this is what he said in inflation. And then you see what year he said it.

And it's just like, and that's where I found that. I go, what did he say about interest rates? Boom, 1980 whatever. And he just laid out. It's so funny because what he also did right there is for every college finance sophomore that's having to go through a class to do DCFs and they're like, I don't understand this. This is complicated. He just explained conceptually a discounted cash flow model there in a way that

was unbelievably digestible. He's so good at that. The clarity of thought. Because he wants the microphone. But also he just educated you in a way that makes more sense and is interesting and you're entertained by and you might build a business off that and then you might want to sell one day or whatever the case is. It's like, this is where I'm spending a lot more time of like really trying to work on storytelling ability and concision, right?

Yeah. The value is in the compression and the distillation, right? If you could listen to like an audio book for 25 hours, but if I can give you the best idea or one idea that changes your life and i can do it you know every week or whatever like in a couple minutes like that is going that some of that value is going to be brought back to me and all that comes from is what i realize is all my heroes have like what they have in common is like the unbelievable

clarity of thought like steve jobs charlie like you're not going to be like oh what does that mean they take unbelievably complex things like you're not going to be like, oh, what does that mean? They take unbelievably complex things. Like you're not advertising to a standing army. You're advertising to a moving parade. Make it in a memorable way. And then you carry that maximum with you forever. How do you get better at that? You said you're working on it.

Reps. Just straight up reps. Like thinking about it. And then hearing yourself back. So the advantage I have of that edit is you can say something and like oh that was so good and then you hear it back and sometimes it's even better

or many times it's worse it's like oh I lost I was I know what I'm saying but you missed this part that doesn't make any sense and so normally

I have to cut it I don't think I've ever re I don't think I've ever re-recorded something we only did that for one episode ever it's really hard to do

what re-record? yeah do you know which that for one episode ever. It's really hard to do. What, re-record? Yeah. Do you know which episode we did it for? No. It was recent. NFL. David and I got on and re-recorded 40 minutes of material over maybe 15 different parts of the episode.

The original recording of that episode was really rough. The NFL episode was too long when we started. It took way too long to get to the interesting part, the Pete Rozelle era. And so we had this like massively bloated beginning. And then we had a story arc that didn't cleanly resolve. And we had a bunch of concepts where we didn't nail the explanation. And so we went in, we cut like half of the first epoch of the story. We recorded new bits to like create nice rising action and resolution on the Roselle era. And then we recorded another like 10 areas where we were just like, this wasn't said

super tight. And I'm really curious if people noticed because we had to like, we basically had to voice act. Like we had to listen to the way that we sort of came into that segment get that in our head this was your your theater background yeah coming in and then like pick it up from there but yeah your editing is so good we've talked about like back catalog sponsorship and you told me what you're doing with like zoom info and i've been listening to your back catalog and it's like dude it's like it sounds like it was there the day you did it it is perfect and i know because

we talk about this that that ad was not there, but it sounds like it's there. That's the goal. The NFL episode is what I meant. I was like, it's a crazy story, but even there is like a lesson where like you guys, I texted you, like totally changed the way I think about things.

Or maybe we were talking on Zoom about this. Where it's like, I never even thought of that. The NFL is like the largest media company. Yeah, yeah. I hadn't either. And the funny thing is, that's like, that was a David Rosenthal insight that like the NFL

is the single largest media property by value. And the funny thing is, if you go look at the, because we did this for the Nintendo episode, you go look at the largest media properties, they list Mario, they list Pokemon, and I think if you sort,

the list includes like video games and movies and so there's like the mcu in there and there's star wars in there but like they don't think the nfl is way bigger than all of those yeah but it's not on the list because people don't think of it as like a media property i love looking for stuff like that both to do episodes on and as um for investing too is like what is something that is just so like in the air that people don't even realize what it is? Or what's a comparison we can make that is super eye-opening but people haven't thought to compare those two things before? Yeah. Which is why I tie things into past – because it's like, oh, this –

Episode 244. No, but the idea behind this is like, we've seen this before. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I reread like the show notes on like the Johnny Ive episode I did. Johnny said something that was great. And he said, he goes, one of Steve's talents was identifying markets full of second rate products. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like, he was like, oh, there's the opportunity here.

And we're both, we're all podcast addicts, right? And the reason that we get along and it's a market full of second-rate products and because you know how hard it is to do yeah and when you go and listen to other business podcasts and like i had a friend um his friend has a podcast and he's like hey these three guys they have large social media followings but it does not translate to episodes which people don't understand yeah rarely will yeah and they're like would you listen to their episode and give it feedback right and we went like so i was like yeah i listened to it and i go um it's three guys sitting around talking whatever happens to pop to their mind what did you expect to happen which is

kind of what's happening here i was i was thinking same thing. I was like, oh, we need some self-awareness. To all listeners, we apologize. No, no, no. This episode lacks craft. There's zero chance that people aren't, people interested in entrepreneurship and investing are not finding this interesting because the prep for this is not three guys

that have a million other things to do. It's three guys that do this all the time. Spent the last eight years doing this. Over and over again, that's going to cop up naturally in a conversation that you can, like, oh, I didn't know about this. Maybe there's a bunch of people probably like, I didn't know who Evan Land was. I didn't know Ogilvy. I never thought about the NFL as a large media company.

So, no, but their problem thing is, like, there's no value proposition. This is actually something that ties into much of what we've talked about over the last couple hours. People are going to do what they want to do. And if people can do what they want to do and are given unfettered freedom to run in it, they can do great things. If people are forced to do things that they don't want to do, they're not going to make great things. Or either forced to or choose to put themselves in a situation for whatever reason where they're

doing something they don't want to be doing, they're not going to be very good at it i think that's one of the reasons why we find ourselves so attracted to episodes that highlight craft is because that's sort of like how we think about acquired like if lvmh benchmark it's like people who do few things but do them exceptionally well are just so entrancing to study i think this goes back to what you were just saying, and I want to go into the craft thing. It's like Charlie, again, has these simple ideas. Most of the problems are that you're just not intensely interested in what you're working on. And he's like, I don't care how smart you are. And Charlie's smarter than almost everybody else.

He goes, I was not successful until I moved myself into a position where I worked on something I was intentionally interested in. These small rules carry most of the weight. It's like, how bad do you actually want it? And if you're not willing to do those things then there's nothing wrong with that like entrepreneurship is for a very small percentage i'm not one of these people think everybody can be an entrepreneur i would like to see more of them but it there's no safety net it's like no one's telling you what to do no one had to tell you guys hey you should uh buy microphones and do a bunch of research and pick we didn't buy microphones to start oh yeah but like with it yeah i think the most interesting

thing is that like i think we've talked about this concept before on air is that uh if someone's going to advise you on starting a podcast they would say do a 30 to 40 minute episode and like do it weekly you know so there, and you release it at the same time, all the time, have a guest. So that way that person promotes it too. And we're like, okay, well we do the opposite of all of those things. And I think it's like my, the conclusion I've come to is advice is an average and, uh, and reality is a distribution and averages suck because they hide the distribution. You kind of want to know the shape of the distribution.

And you kind of want to know, like, things that apply to your specific data point, not, like, the average thing. And I think, like, advice is always an average that hides the distribution. And if you know that you're actually an outlier in some way, then you have to sort of like selectively follow advice because it may not apply to you. Charlie told me a fantastic story about this where he's just like, he was singing the praises of BYD that they're kicking ass. Like he told me like the, not just me. I mean, I'm with a group of people. They make batteries for cars. Yeah. But he started out like, like doing like knockoff cell phones in Korea or something. And then like he – I forgot the guy's founder's name and I apologize.

But like he was telling me the life story. But he was saying that the founder, that Charlie and Li Lu, Lu Li. Li Lu. Li Lu gave the founder advice and he ignored it and he was right. He's like, don't go in electric cars or whatever it was that he did. He's like, and he, you know, selling, I think he said like 2 billion cars. Like, I forgot what, 2 million cars. There's no way he sold 2 billion cars in a year.

So, like, he's like sold 2 million cars in China. China is a big market. Yeah, so he's just like, and he did it, and he gets all the credit because Lee and me told him not to do it. And he's just like, same to your point. It's game tape. It's just like when Kobe is watching this particular play of Michael Jordan, that may never appear in his life.

And maybe the move he did wasn't the right move for what Kobe did, but maybe it influences his other thing. It's just like the life is complex and messy. And you can think you're really smart until you have a two-and-a-half-year-old, and they ask you, why is that the way? And you answer the question. And then their follow-up question is going to be why. And eventually, you're going to get to 11 where you're like, I don't know.

Yeah. Like, I don't know why. Everything ends at I don't know. It's like, I don't know. And so of course, there's no certainty. That's why if you crave certainty, you've got to get a job. But there wasn't even Facebook when I was in college because I had to work full time. I went at night.

But my college did not have Facebook. It was just coming out. So we had MySpace. And my MySpace, you could put a quote, right, at the header. That's right. Yeah, yeah. And I've always thought like this for my entire life. It was like there's no security in life, only opportunity.

And I think that's what we did. So investors and entrepreneurs are going for opportunity at the expense of security. And if you need security, you can get a job. But we see, like, everybody said, go into tech, go into tech, go into tech. Look, you make all this money. I think this is a super mispriced thing. I think people who crave security, which I get, like all humans crave some level of security, sort of mispriced security because no jobs are as secure as we think they are, but they definitely cap your upside. And people, it's like, is founding a company or going into business for yourself as an entrepreneur extremely risky? Yes, it is. But is it actually that much

riskier than a job where you could get laid off or the sector could go through a downfall? Or like, there are a lot of things about having a Job, they're not nearly as secure as people think they are Steve Wozniak and jobs. They're like worst-case scenario. We just doesn't work. Let's go get jobs. We're broke anyways, right? Let's just try he's like sells his van for like 50 Steve sells his van for like $1,500 like I'm just all in on Apple like That's that to me that's like again i think a lot of this is like people are asked it's like it's entrepreneurship like innate it can be taught can there be a school of entrepreneurship and i was like well ask charlie munger if he taught

uh a business class what what did he say he's like i would just teach the history of what you guys do he's like i teach the history of 100 companies and i would talk about what went right and what went wrong there's no security there's no he's not saying yeah take my class and on the other end you get this degree that guarantees business success that doesn't exist well that's what's cool like they have been teaching entrepreneurship for the last 50 years so I was in so I went to the UCF which is this like diploma mill essentially and they was in the pilot entrepreneurship program, right? The very first year. And it's a two-year program.

Wait, so do you... Take us back to that. Yeah. Were you thinking about... What was your relationship to entrepreneurship before starting the Founders Podcast? So I have never been on a job review. I've only had two jobs in my life. But I was like, there was no entrepreneurship like community there was no entrepreneurship

industry right so like my first business was this is a long story but like um i had been accustomed i was talking about this yesterday by the time i was 17 i had been accustomed to working full-time and going to school right so like people are like oh you work a lot on founders it's like i don't have to go to school i can like do this all the time you're working half time as far as you're concerned like um there's a long story here like that would take me like 30 minutes but like um like my dad sat me down when i was like 15 he's like listen you don't have to pay rent but like i don't have any money for you so like if you want something you gotta go get it right and the good thing about my dad he's a cuban immigrant uh not educated but like the best piece of advice that he ever gave me and my brother um was a maximum he's like don't

half-ass things right so he does it in like a blue collar he's a truck driver like you know that kind of thing where he's like he he prides himself on the fact that like uh like he'll work 72 hours straight right but he never made a lot of money and never had an education. His mom wasn't good, whatever. And they had to escape Castro's Cuba. My dad was born in Cuba. Wow. So it's like, imagine, I talked about this on, because you know Patrick's at the end of every episode.

Yeah, that's your episode with him. Yeah, he's like, what's the nicest thing somebody ever did to you, or for you, did to you. For you. And I was like, something that it was a decision that happened way before i was born and like my grandfather is in cuba in 1959 um 1958 and he again not an educated man he uh worked as a butcher and worked in a factory that made shoes uh he's married and he's got a baby. That baby is my dad.

And Castro comes to power. And he doesn't have a lot of money, doesn't speak English. And yet he had some kind of insight that I need to get out of here, right? And he goes to a country, picks up, loses everything. Not that you had a lot anyways. Goes to a country, knows nobody,

doesn't speak the language. When I sat down, the first thing me and Sam Zell talked about, and I helped bond us to the point where at the end he said he liked my energy and everything but uh so hopefully he liked me i don't know um was in his story i was like because i had obviously read his autobiography and one of the first things me and sam talked about was sam i i understand and empathize with your story because Sam's story is his dad being Jewish, getting the last train out of Poland before the Nazis bomb it. Literally the last train out. 18 members of his family, his dad went around to saying, we got to get out of here.

This is not good. They're like, no, we're going to stay. They're all dead. Sam's dad and his mom have a daughter they get to america his mom's pregnant sam is born in america and so in that book sam's dad's always telling him you don't understand how lucky you are to be born here right and i was like i understand that mentality because i grew up meeting uh cubans have this thing called Nocho Uena, which is they don't celebrate. My wife's Colombian, so I married into a Colombian family. They do this too.

They don't celebrate Christmas on Christmas Day. They do it the night before. It's like Christmas Eve. And so I grew up, you know, for as long as I can remember, I was like 8, 7, 10, 10 years old, meeting people that came over on rafts. And you would see these things. I've seen these in person. It people that came over on rafts. And you would see these things. I've seen these in person, right? It's just like... The rafts.

Think about how bad it has to be. It's like 50 miles, right? 90 miles, right? I'm going to go over to the study of the University of Miami. You just did on this. 90 miles. You're a parent. Hopefully, you might be a parent one day.

Like you love your kids way more than you love yourself. Like there's people that came, hundreds of thousands of people went to the edge of the island and put their kids on a raft just hopes that they get to America. And so the problem is, is like you don't make the announcement

to everybody's like, hey, tomorrow we're leaving on a raft. Could you get caught? You know, imprisoned or killed or whatever case is. so the university of miami did this study was like well how many people did this we know hundreds of thousands survived right and they estimate that like half at least i think it's something like half a million people perish never got there there's a conversation with um there's this ufc fighter named jorge masvidal who was in miami he's a cuban guy and his dad was one of the ones that escaped he went

on a their raft was a made out of a like a truck tire like you know like think of like a size of like a bulldozer tire right wow it's his uncle and two 14 year old boys they get off path right they run out of their water wind up being like uh contaminated so you can't drink you'll die how do they propel it anyway like how do you make sure it gets to florida, so you can't drink. How do they propel it anyway? How do you make sure it gets to Florida? Some have oars, and some have... See that blanket over there? You try to make a sail out of a blanket. Some of these are unbelievably...

They're a lot of ingenuities. For uneducated, they don't have the internet. It's unbelievable. In his case, they don't have the internet. Like it's an unbelievable. And so in his case, I know they had oars. I think they had a sail. They get close enough to the Bahamas. They haven't drank water for like three or four days or something. A pigeon lands on the oar.

They wind up killing the pigeon, opening it apart and drinking the blood. That's the only thing that's saved. And so now his – so he gets to America.ica eventually gets to go from the bahamas to america now his son is like you know makes millions and millions of dollars like as a professional fighter and a celebrity and and and all this other stuff so anyways long story short uh the one thing like i my dad's still alive i told you my mom passed away um but like like, I really think, like, my dad for just, like, he did not baby me at all. He's just like, you got to, like, figure out how to get a job. Yeah.

And so I worked at, back then, this is something that Paul Graham made the point of, right? He's like, dude, when I was a kid, the only jobs available were, like, you know, a scoop ice cream or something. And, like, you've probably met them. I met some 17-year-old founders, a bunch of founders. You talk to them, they're on their second company. I'm like, what? They're like, oh yeah, when I was like ninth grade, I like did this like Gmail plugin or like.

Yeah, right, yeah. I had this SaaS tool. Yeah, I made $40,000 a month. And like, I'm making so much money, my parents let me drop out of high school so I can do this business. I'm like, I worked at a car wash, dude. I made $4.65 an hour.

You know? So anyways, long story short, I would go to school year-round, right? Because I had figured this out, where it's like, oh, most people in summer school, they were forced to. I went to public school my whole life, right? And so people would go to public school, they would be forced to

because you failed something else. But if you elected to do that, in six weeks, you get a full semester's credit. And there's two six-week terms. Yeah, like mini-mesters. So I always, even when I was in college, I did this. I would go to school year-round, right? And so in high school, I went to school so much that by the time I got to my last two years of high school, I was in this program called OJT, which is on-the-job training.

So instead of having six periods, you would leave after the fourth period, and you'd have to have a job, and you would get two of your other credits through your employer. So your employer would have to fill out paperwork, like, is David cleaning cars? And like, oh, there's a baby that came in and threw up. He did a good job with that. It was disgusting.

But the benefit of that was being able to work full-time, make enough money where I could buy. I bought a new car with my own money, all that other stuff. And so then I realized, oh, I think I was making $400 or $500 a week in high school, which is freaking really good. This is late 90s, early 2000s. And then I got promoted to being a detailer. That's like you have client list and then you start to film relationships It's like every other business like right and they're like, hey, I love what you do

Would you do this at my house or would you do it on my boat? No, you don't do or like whatever and so my first business was just Detailing cars and boats and taking all this other stuff where it's like, okay. I spent an hour waxing this guy's car I might make 20 bucks. I do it at his house i make 150 dollars and so like i've always just had that like and again there's not like this is the story you guys read in the books and the history the story is like there's no master plan here yeah it's like hey i need to make the opportunity all of my other friends were working at mcdonald's chick-fil-a where you just said something like they cap yep you're i never had a capped upside right um and then so i did all these other businesses i started in college because i

thought i was gonna be a lawyer and this is so silly because everybody all my friends are lawyers hate it right i dodged a bullet there well this is that that's the dream like the the immigrant dream is for like their kids to become lawyers and doctors well my parents not my parents so my parents never said the word college to me once not one time because they're both high school dropouts so like um they they never like i was one of the only kids in high school and they don't have a uh a curfew like my parents knew i was independent and left me they gave that's the best thing they get it's like oh damn you can take care of yourself yeah they thought my mom told me she's like i just thought you were a lot smarter than everybody else in our family so like we trusted you to make the right decision well i was also driven too but she

um because you have to understand like being smart in this family is not like being like the bar is low in the sense that like they're they're both coming from multiple generations of people that did not prioritize education or self-improvement so that's why i'm so like ferocious in this because i didn't see that you know and so um the the this this demonstrated when my mom was dying of cancer um so like you know hippa has this thing where like they're not going to share paperwork or information unless like it gets permission from the person. And like, my mom could choose whoever she wanted to. She could have chose her husband, right? They had a bad relationship.

They should have got, they got divorced and then remarried. They should have stayed divorced, but whatever. And she, you see that with actions. We said that actions express priority. She's like, we're in there. And she's like, who do you want the paperwork? Who do you want us to communicate? She's like, David, not her other kids, not her husband, not her sister.

She trusted me implicitly. And so I essentially, like, they never met you in college, so I just kept this routine. I was like, people are like, oh, what do you want to do for a living? And I remember watching TV when I was younger. I was like, well, I want to be rich. And you think when you're younger, you don't know anything. Like, who's rich on TV? Like, I liked Fresh Prince of Bel-Air.

I was like, you could be a judge or a doctor. And I was like, oh, I can't see blood. Like, that freaks me out. So now I could be an attorney. So I went to school and I worked full time. And I was trying to hustle anything I could do. And so the idea was like, okay, I'm just going to go undergrad for business because I'm interested in business anyways.

But I'm only doing that until i get uh till i go to law school right and um this point of the story was not to go on this deviation but i was in the entrepreneurship program the pilot one right because i was already interested in trying to make money in any way possible and this is how bad the entrepreneurship was and this is why i'm kind of jealous of these young kids where now you actually have an entrepreneurship industry and there's stuff you can learn from. The head, the main, what is it called? Like the main subject, Entrepreneurship 101, right? The curriculum. Yeah, but there's all these other classes.

But Entrepreneurship 101 is run the teacher, right? What is her credentials? Her dad started an AC company in florida you're gonna make a lot of money yeah that's and he died on the job because he got electrocuted to death oh god and she inherited the company and then she ran it and so she's the teacher and so like the curriculum was terrible it was terrible the best thing and this relates relates to what we do for a living now, which I could have never predicted, is there was a guy that, this is kind of like Charlie Munger says you should read, if you want to learn about incentives in a really difficult business, read Les Schwab's autobiography, which I did because Charlie told me to. I did it like episode a long time ago. And he's like, this guy made a ton of money in a really hard business, which is like tires and like oil changes and stuff like that.

And so the guy was coming into the class. He was going to donate like $3 or $5 million to have a building named after him, and he had one prerequisite. He goes, I want to talk to your entrepreneurship students before I give you this money. And I learned more in one hour from that dude than I did in two years in entrepreneurship because he would talk for like 20 minutes, and then he's like, open up your questions. And I lit him up with question after question after question and i remember to this day just like the simple way this is like you know he was building his business in the probably the 80s and

90s and he's like um how did you know where to expand and he's like we would pull the car registration data from the dmvs right and we would know how many car owners there were in this specific radius and we'd have to hit like let's say we need 40 000 car owners in a three mile radius there's are there any other stores put a store right there and they did that over and over and over and over again awesome yeah and so like he had ideas like that and just like again you learn through experience like that guy could teach us way more because he actually did this compared to... I think probably all three of us have a like unintended impact of college entrepreneurship programs on us. You definitely do.

I have a minor in entrepreneurship. Really? Yeah, from Ohio State. Similarly, only ever went to public school. I was a little different. Like I was really into computers. state similarly only ever went to public school yeah uh i i was a little different like i i was really into computers like in when i was 10 my dad and i found a um pc on the side of the road and he was like do you want to install linux and i was like what's linux and like taught me to use

a terminal like i was really lucky my dad is an engineer and and so i went to college for computer science but you wait wait back up you found a PC on the side of the road? 100%. And you were like, let's install Linux. And my dad's like, I'm willing to bet that thing is just old. He's like, because we're looking at the, you know, at that point you could open computers. So we're like looking at it.

He kind of like puts it apart, looks inside. He's like, it's got all the pieces. Like this is just an old computer that someone's throwing away. That's amazing. All right, keep going. So you majored in computer science? Yeah, but I, like, went in thinking, like, I want to have some kind of, like, I want to do business and tech. But I didn't know what that meant.

And so I found my way to a club called the Business Builders Club. And they were like, oh, there's, like, a real, like, an actual minor that you can take. And so sort of, like, through student organizations organizations found my way to actually doing something in the college of business which like i go back and forth on whether undergraduate business stuff is useful because on the one hand but it got you plugged into your network all your buddies it's all about people you guys have all done amazing we just came back from my bachelor party and half the crew is the business builders club ohio State friends that I made there. The content sucks, but the relationships are everything.

But the relationship, that's what it is. And it's not – the stuff you're learning is actually super important, but you don't have the context for why yet. It's like you're working on a DCF model and you're like, I don't – this is useless to me. Or you're like learning about depreciation and amortization. You're like, this is awful because i have nothing whereas my thesis classes were awesome like there's labs like i can touch and feel the things and understand mechanical advantage and how the free body diagram works but in these business concepts they're like super abstract and it's i they weren't useful to me then

but like i went and took a corsair class class last year, two years ago, on accounting. Because I was just like, okay, I want to actually understand accounting. In part because we talk about it on Acquired all the time, and David understands this stuff more than I do, and I hate it. But it is so much more useful when you understand where the rubber meets the road in the real world. It would just be beneficial to just go out and try to sell something. Yes. Get real world experience. What did Charlie...

I just reread. Have you guys read The Tao of Charlie Munger? No. I've heard it's good. Okay. I can't remember if I looked at it for the episode or not. I might have. I own the hardcover, the Kindle, and the audiobook.

That should tell you. It's worth it. By the way, I own the audiobook and the kindle of almost every book that i own i uh including the hardcover too no i don't know you're not a hardcover person oh because you can also switch yeah that's the whisper sync or whatever it's called and all the time i actually hate that they sync and they because it like my common workflow in doing acquired research is i listen to the book, and then I'll take some notes in Apple Notes of half quotes where I'm like, oh, I've got to look this up later. And then I go back in the Kindle, and I search for the actual quote and pull out the data to be able to use it in the episodes.

I think listening to the audiobook before reading the book is very helpful. It gives you a basic overview. It's almost like reading a Wikipedia page before you read the biography. It's not enough detail, but you have – Yes. Like watching a movie for the second or third time, you know how it and it gives you pick up on things you missed the first time yep um in the tale of charlie munger though charlie was talking about this where he's just like i learned about business at the buffett grocery store right from the cash register it's like because that money is

the lifeblood of all i think the quote in the book is like money is the lifeblood of all businesses and that's where the cash that's where the money was at this point. Yep. And it's like you just learn – and he says like you learn the importance of like showing up on time, how to work with people you don't like, like how to service – like take care of your customers. Like these are things that are all like universally applicable. Yep. That there's – it's another form of education. Like that's the biggest – the key of experience and why it's so important.

It's the most valuable form of education because it's education of life. Like I love to read like more than almost anybody else. Like you guys obviously love to read. There's just so much things you can't learn from books. So it's just like, it's not enough. David, what was your college entrepreneurship? Well, it's funny. It's more them than uh an actual impact but um i can't remember i've talked about this before uh princeton had and then just one entrepreneurship class it was like one class in the department of electrical engineering i was not an electrical engineer but people knew about this because like oh this is cool right and i uh so senior year i had already the recruiting happened in the fall so i I already had my investment banking job that I was going to go do.

A whole other can of worms. But I was like, oh, I'll take this class. It's supposed to be good. I'm going to go work on Wall Street. I should learn about high-tech entrepreneurship was the name of the class. And it was all guest lecture. It was case method. And Ed Schau, the professor, would have guests come in.

One of the guests, either the last or like the second to last class, was Tim Ferriss. What? Before he published the four-hour work week. No way. Yes. He asked Buffett a question at the annual meeting. I'm a guest lecturer at Princeton. You're in the class.

Oh, he totally hustled this. He like traded on that name for like years before he made it as Tim Ferriss. Because he just went in for one class. It was one class.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was one day of one course and that was like this case study class and I think he had taken the class when he was at Princeton

and the professor like liked him and kind of took a shine to him. So you and I then are guest lecturers at Columbia. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah you and I then are guest lecturers at Columbia. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, we're guest lecturers everywhere.

So he came in and so he was working on the book, but it was done but was about to get published. And so he came in and the whole class was basically telling his story and then showing the book. I remember in my notes for the class, I titled them. I have them still somewhere on an old an old computer the title was supplement guy do what you love yeah that is the moral of the story oh my god and then oh man afterwards uh talking about missed opportunities he uh he was he's like he's older than me but he's not that much older so he'd only been out for a couple years so class ends and he was like hey guys anybody want to hang out

I'm going to go hang at Terrace Princeton has eating clubs they do have fraternities but one of them is Terrace and Jenny was actually in Terrace and basically I'm going to go hang out and have a good

time with anybody who wants to come along, it was like, basically, I'm going to go, like, hang out and have a good time with anybody who wants to come along. And I was like, nah. Now I'll see you on the podcast circuit later. Yeah, exactly. I love how this just was uncovered in random conversation, right? It was just like computer science, investment banking, law. Yeah. No, but, like.

No common denominator. No, and, like, and look where. I use theater more than I use computer science. Like, that was what I—yeah. Like, the idea from venture capitalists and podcasters, right? I went and my daughter asked me to go speak at Career Day. Oh, hell yeah. And this was last year, so she would have been—

That's, like, the greatest thing ever. She would have been in fourth grade, right? I can't wait. And so she's like, well, Daddy, like, you have a weird job. Like, will you come in like you have a weird job like will you come in yeah she's like will you come in and like give a talk and so you mentioned earlier like entrepreneurs are like odd ducks and like crazy people they don't like they don't like they see rules it's like oh that's just words written down on paper like i'll just do my own thing so i show up i'll say i'll do anything for you like whatever you want um and so i show up and there's two,

each class at the school she has has two teachers, right? And so they're like, oh, well, we didn't, hi, Mr. Senator, we didn't get your email. Did you get like, did you bring like a thumb drive? I'm like, what was I supposed to email and why would I have a thumb drive? And they're like, you're a PowerPoint presentation. And I go, have you ever made a PowerPoint presentation in your life? And I go, no, but this is right. I go, there are nine. Why would I make a PowerPoint presentation? And so I go there. And I was like, listen, I'm fine. Like, I got this.

Like, they're like, you're going to wing it. They didn't use the word wing it, but I forgot what it was. You're like, no, really. I got this. And I show up, right? And they're all like sitting on the floor. And there's like 39-year-olds. Are you like, stand up?

No, no, no. No, never. OK. I want to see some energy and i was like i talked for two minutes right i have 30 minutes slot i go uh i talked for two minutes i was like listen um don't listen to your parents don't listen don't listen to your teachers i go follow whatever you're intensely i just gave charlie munger's advice what are you interested in? Keep following that, even if it doesn't, there's not an obvious career path. And I use the word, I go, it's highly likely that the job that you're gonna have

has not yet been invented. I was like, there was no such thing as a podcaster. Like, I couldn't go to school for podcasting. Yeah, they're all gonna be prompt engineers. Or whatever, and like, so that was like the two minute summary, and I said a little bit more than that, I go, okay, now what questions do you have for me and so i spent the next 28 minutes i told them the importance of reading i was like listen your friends are all gonna be these stupid apps

i was like you're gonna have no attention span learn how to read and read whatever you're interested in um meanwhile your daughter's probably like oh my god so i'll tell you the funny thing so then 28 minutes and then they're telling me about books they love they're like oh i like harry potter and i like this and i like travel and we had like the greatest time right so i come back i see there's like nine in the morning i leave um and i my daughter gets out you know later on in the day and she goes daddy thank you very much my friends thought your talk was the best i was like oh that's like that's interesting. I'm glad they liked it. I go, well, let me ask you a question.

Who came after me? And they're like, oh, it was John's mom or something. I was like, oh, what does John's mom do? She's like, I go, well, first of all, did she do a PowerPoint? She goes, yes, everybody did a PowerPoint. And I go, what does John's mom do? She goes, oh, she's a corporate attorney.

I'm like, so you, like, they're nine years old. And also, that's like the alternate future for you. Yeah. Like it was like, you would have had a PowerPoint. It was like bizarro David going after you. It'd be interesting. Like what you would,

uh, yeah. But then again, I was, I was living in Florida and like the law there is not a lot. Like you'd have to move to like DC. Like the law there is like insurance. Like,

so I'm at the San Francisco airport, which is way nicer than Miami International Airport, by the way. I've never been to Miami International Airport. Oh, it's like third world, man. Really? Ceilings are low. They built this new part, but SFO was way nicer than mine. And I see this billboard. It says the world's or America's largest personal injury attorney.

That guy was in Orlando. I was going to school in Orlando at the time. His name's John Morgan. He was famous back then, and now he has. So, like, that would probably work for him. Like, I'm, like, chasing ambulances or whatever. No disrespect. Like, whatever you got to do to pay your bills.

Like, I have no problem with that. But, yeah, I just thought it was funny. I was like, you also have to think independently. Like, they're nine years old. Like, they don't want to sit through. I don't even want to sit through a PowerPoint. It's certainly what you want to sit through. I don't even want to sit through a PowerPoint. Nobody wants to sit through a PowerPoint. No, you should try to.

I would have just brought a video game console or something. I was like, that's my video games. Maybe you could decide. That's a viable career. Blake and Mitch, Blake Robbins and Mitch Lasky, made the point in one of their GameCraft episodes that I never even thought of. They're like, you know how hard it is,

how few pure software companies are that sell over a billion dollars a year in software, and how many game companies? They said it on the podcast. There's so many video game companies that make so much money. I think they say the video game industry is bigger than music, movies, and books combined,

or whatever. It has been since the 90 yeah that's the that was the interesting thing we uncovered on the nintendo episode is that stat gets bantied around bantered bandied bandied around a lot right now which is it's very interesting because like the video game market has done this but uh the video game market has basically always been larger than TV and movies combined but has never gotten attention or like been thought of

as a legitimate It's one of those secrets that's been out there for 30 years that people haven't paid attention to. Yeah. Alright,

I'm afraid of these memory cards filling up. This has been wonderful. Yep, thanks for having me guys. Listeners, thank you. We almost never say this

but I think we gotta do this again. Let's do it again. I'll be here next week no thanks guys we'll see you next time alright bye