FoundMyFitness - #101 Dr. Andy Galpin: The Optimal Diet, Supplement, & Recovery Protocol for Peak Performance

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

Download my "How to Train According to the Experts" guide Discover my premium podcast, The Aliquot Nutrition, supplementation, and recovery are foundational for enhancing exercise performance, but their full potential often remains untapped. In this episode, Dr. Andy Galpin, a renowned expert who has coached Olympians, world champions, and professional athletes across major sports, breaks down exactly how to leverage these critical elements to meaningfully enhance your results.  Timestamps: (00:00) Introduction (05:01) Eating to perform vs. eating to live longer—do you have to choose? (08:20) Training fasted—are the mitochondrial benefits worth it? (14:53) What should you eat before early-morning strength training? (16:52) Why nutrient timing isn't critical for the average exerciser (18:44) Is intermittent fasting killing your gains? (29:24) Carbs before resistance training—fuel or fluff? (31:07) Endurance fueling strategies—what actually works? (36:02) When is post-exercise carb intake truly essential? (37:35) Game day fueling—how to get it right (40:25) Carb supplements vs. whole foods—what do elite athletes actually eat? (43:18) Rethinking fat intake for exercise performance (46:14) Metabolic flexibility—how the term got hijacked (50:39) The real test of metabolic health—why skipping a meal shouldn't break you (51:55) Are anaerobic and aerobic systems truly separate? (55:56) Does protein timing really matter? (58:27) Whole foods vs. protein powders (1:03:21) Fat timing—overlooked or irrelevant? (1:04:48) The truth about seed oils and saturated fat (1:09:43) Magnesium—who actually needs to supplement? (1:11:43) The problem with magnesium blood tests (1:13:01) Why the magnesium RDA might not be enough (1:13:54) Magnesium citrate, glycinate, or threonate—does it matter? (1:15:55) Do magnesium supplements really aid recovery? (1:18:35) Omega-3 supplementation—is the AFib risk real? (1:22:10) Can omega-3s prevent muscle loss during inactivity? (1:26:14) Why "performance anchors" matter more than supplements (1:30:47) Iron deficiency—the hidden performance killer? (1:33:42) Does caffeine before workouts increase fat burning? (1:35:29) Caffeine cycling—smart strategy or outdated myth? (1:38:45) Can music measurably enhance workout performance? (1:39:57) Rhodiola rosea—fatigue fighter or placebo? (1:44:38) Beetroot, citrulline, arginine—do nitric oxide boosters work? (1:55:07) Beta-alanine—why the tingles might be worth it (2:01:05) Is 5g of creatine really enough? (2:02:18) Sodium bicarbonate—effective fatigue buffer or GI nightmare? (2:04:36) Can you trust what's in your pre-workout supplement? (2:06:54) Is too much caffeine killing your performance gains? (2:07:41) Can antioxidants blunt exercise performance? (2:08:40) High-dose vitamin C—immune protection or adaptation killer? (2:15:12) Do anti-inflammatories sabotage your gains? (2:17:38) Tart cherry juice—recovery aid or overhyped? (2:21:04) Is glutamine the immune booster athletes need? (2:29:11) Can collagen actually strengthen tendons? (2:33:26) Does glucosamine chondroitin actually help joints? (2:34:28) What really happens during recovery—signaling vs. inflammation (2:37:25) The most important recovery metric (2:39:05) How increased blood flow accelerates muscle repair (2:43:55) Why persistent soreness might mean your fascia's at fault (2:47:02) Can compression boots genuinely speed recovery? (2:47:56) Can simply soaking in water accelerate recovery? (2:51:13) When is sauna a better choice than extra miles? (2:53:12) Can localized heat preserve muscle during downtime? (2:54:31) Cold immersion timing—muscle recovery vs. blunting gains (3:01:16) Why pre-bed cold exposure might improve sleep (3:04:31) Heart rate variability vs. resting heart rate (3:12:45) Why respiratory rate predicts stress better than resting heart rate (3:16:57) Are you overtrained—or just overreached? (3:21:41) Hormones and overtraining—what's the real link? (3:25:48) Does training harder mean you need more sleep? (3:27:54) How to know if you're getting enough sleep (3:31:17) Sleep trackers (3:33:10) Hydration timing—the key to uninterrupted sleep? (3:34:54) Why your wind-down index matters (3:36:02) Is your bedroom's CO₂ buildup sabotaging your sleep? (3:39:40) Are nasal allergies quietly wrecking your recovery? (3:41:23) Sleep hacks—what actually works? Watch this episode on YouTube Show notes are available by clicking here

Welcome back to the podcast. Today we're diving deep into the science of nutrition, supplementation, training, and recovery for peak athletic performance and longevity. And joining me is Dr. Andy Galpin. Dr. Galpin is a professor and director of the Human Performance Center at Parker University. He bridges the gap between rigorous laboratory research and practical real-world strategies, coaching elite athletes, Olympians, and everyday fitness enthusiasts alike. His research explores the nuances of how training, nutrition, and targeted supplementation interact to drive strength, endurance, and optimal recovery. In this wide-ranging conversation, Andy and I unpacked several critical topics, including nutrition for performance and longevity.

Are these goals fundamentally at odds or can they coexist? We explore strategies for balancing immediate athletic goals with long-term health. Fasted training and time-restricted eating. Who should train fasted, when might skipping breakfast enhance or impair your results? We discuss his latest research on fasting, training timing, and body recomposition. Carbohydrates, fat, and protein, what truly matters when fueling performance, recovery or endurance, and what's just noise. We break down macro timing, the reality behind carb loading and the nuances of protein intake beyond standard guidelines. Supplements that actually move the needle. Andy shares practical insights. into creatine, caffeine, beta alanine, beetroot juice, rodeola, and other performance enhancers,

including optimal dosages, timing strategies, and which supplements might actively hinder your progress. Recovery science made practical. We dissect the science behind cold water immersion, sauna, compression therapies, and targeted nutritional strategies, which of these practices boosts recovery and which might inadvertently blunt adaptations. We talk about sleep and performance. Andy reveals his top practical interventions to dramatically improve sleep quality tonight, no wearables required. We also tackle common myths, emerging trends in questions athletes often face from micronutrient needs and electrolyte management to inflammation, soreness, and overtraining.

By the end of this episode, you'll have a clear evidence-based roadmap for optimizing your training, nutrition, supplementation, and recovery, whether your goal is achieving elite performance, improving overall health, or extending longevity. If you're aiming to enhance your VO2 max or build strength, we've compiled a comprehensive training guide that integrates insights from leading experts featured on the Found My Fitness podcast. This resource offers evidence-based protocols to optimize your training outcomes. You can access this free guide right now at how-to-trained guide.com. Once again, that's how-to-train guide.com. If you find value in the rigorous evidence-based content provided on this podcast and want to support our commitment to keeping it ad-free,

please consider becoming a Found My Fitness premium member. Membership grants you exclusive access to the Alawquot, which is our members-only private podcast, monthly live Q&A sessions with me, curated science digest crafted to help you optimize your health and longevity. You can learn more at foundmyfitness.com forward slash premium. Once again, that's foundmyfitness.com forward slash. premium. So without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Dr. Andy Galpin. Hey, everyone. I'm super excited to be sitting across the table from Dr. Andy Galpin, who is the director

of the Human Performance Center at Parker University. Andy and I have been corresponding for at least the last 10 years. I'm pretty pumped to have this conversation. He is an expert in muscle physiology, but also has published a wide range of, I would say, exercise physiology related topics from, you know, muscle health to nutrition to recovery. He also coaches athletes, Olympians, MMA fighters, just all around got a lot of experience and the science behind it. So I'm really excited to have this conversation with you today, Andy. I mean, you and I've talked about, you know, a lot of things via, you know, X and Twitter

at the time, I think email as well. So thank you so much for coming on the show. It's just, I can't even explain how much of an honor and a pleasure this is. I've been telling you for a long time now how stoked I am about this. And my wife is tired of hearing of it. So I'm finally excited to get here and do it. Well, today it's kind of interesting because, you know, you've got this vast publication history in muscle biology and exercise physiology. But I'm kind of taking you in a direction where you've also published and you have a lot of knowledge.

regarding nutrition, supplements, recovery. I'm super interested in the role of those in helping people sort of meet their fitness goals. And when it comes to nutrition, I mean, this is obviously a field that's constantly, you know, there's no agreement ever, whether we're talking about performance or longevity. But, you know, there's a growing number of athletes and people that are like myself, which are, I would say, committed exercises that I'm very interested in health, not as much in performance, although I'm becoming a lot more interested in performance these days. But I'm interested in longevity, for sure.

I mean, that's my primary interest. And so there's people kind of trying to figure out what kind of diet they could, you know, what kind of diet they could eat to sort of meet their performance and longevity goals, if that's even possible. Is that something that you've thought about? Yeah, I get the question of performance versus longevity or health and nutrition a lot. And I think as you've done so well over your career, there are tenants that are going to agree and then there's going to be distension. And so I think it's easy as maybe to frame this as what are the flags we can put on both sides of this equation?

Known obvious yeses and obvious knows, right? So if you want to live your longest, healthiest life, number one, we're all going to agree. on probably five, seven, maybe eight different things. And if you were to look, I'll just do it this way. If I said, okay, great, because we deal with these clients. I deal with high performance athletes, as you mentioned, and we have a lot of our clients that are like you. They're not athletes, never were.

Do not care, but they're wanting them to live their longest, healthiest life. And if I threw their diets in front of you, I'd be stunned if you could tell me which one was for which person. I don't think you'd have any chance, right? So you'd say, what's that going to look like? we're going to center around protein right you've talked about that endlessly it's going to be high and high quality we're going to have a lot of variety of foods we're going to have a lot of variety of colors turns out micronutrients vitamins and minerals are pretty important right like your

entire career we're going to have some attention paid to fiber caloric intake will be managed we're going to distribute carbohydrates and fat in some way that helps them hit their needs and goals and personal preferences we could go down the list but the easiest way to think about it is how much overlap is there, almost all. What are the small differences between these performance and longevity goals? Well, depends on what type of performance. So we're talking about a lot of caloric expenditure.

Are we talking about a power event? Then, yeah, we're going to find some differences. And we can chop that up all day, if you want to know, like exact numbers and hours. But the reality of it is, both of those people, performance, longevity, you have to manage calories one way or the other. You have to do all the other things. It's not that different.

You can make some arguments of maybe you can get away with certain things. If you're not interested in performance, you can do some different things with food timing, food frequency. You can play with some different stuff where you wouldn't want to do that with a high-performance athlete. So there's a lot of fun differences with those things. But at the highest level for the average person, if you're eating like a high-performance athlete, for the most part, you're also eating for longevity. Only big fundamental difference there might be caloric balance.

Yeah. That's the top layer, but other than that, it's pretty similar. I was kind of thinking that was going to be your answer. I do, I'm very interested in the intermittent fasting, time restricted eating, training while you're fasted, depending on the type of training because it's something that I do for certain types of training. So. You like to train fasted. Well, I like to train fasted if I'm going for a 30-minute run. Yep.

Zone 2 kind of run. Sure. And the reason I do that is because, I mean, this was years ago, I read a meta-analysis. And maybe I would love to hear your updates on the literature because I know that you've been keeping up with it. But there was a meta-analysis looking at people that were training fasted. And if they were doing endurance type of aerobic exercise training and they trained, they were training, it was like less than 60 minutes. It was like less than an hour, right? Yeah.

And this isn't, you know, this is like a zone to kind of below the lactate threshold type of training. then they had better adaptations in mitochondria, mitochondrial enzymes, you know, obviously like fatty acids being oxidized. So whereas if they trained when they were fed, again, it was less than an hour. Some of those adaptations were blunted somewhat. And for me, it was like, oh, well, I kind of want those adaptations. So I do like to train a little bit fast. Now, I don't do hour long runs anymore.

That was like a thing of my past for me. I do, I do my strength training, I do not like to do fasted at all. I have to have like something like a banana. I have to have some glucose or something. So I'd love to get your take on training while fasted. Yeah, there's a lot of things to think about here. I know that I sent you right before we started here, our pre-print of one of our fasting studies, we just got published.

So we can go into that if you want. But in general, the biggest way to think about this is, is the magnitude of benefit with the intervention exceeding the magnitude of preference. And what I mean by that is when I coach people this morning, like literally this morning, I'm dealing with putting together a program

for the number one quarterback in college football. Right after that, I have to deal with one of our executives who's 60-year-old female. Right, right after that, I'm also dealing with a guy preparing for a 900-mile hike. And so that context is important because as I'm answering questions like this, all of these avatars are in my head.

And I'm thinking, what is true for a person one, two, and three? And what is true for the other person who, like, doesn't exercise at all? And if something's not consistent across those four, then I have to modify and contextualize the answer. So when it comes to training fasted, great, if you are going for an event like you're talking about and you feel better when you do it, that matters to me in that particular context more than the physiological benefit, because a physiological benefit is not fake. It's just not huge. So is it more beneficial for your mitochondria? Yes, potentially. But if you look at the amount, it's not that much. Now, if you liked it or didn't care, fine. But if you're like, I hate it, my performance is worse. I don't like it. I don't feel good.

Then we actually don't do it. And so my first layer answer to all that is, number one, what do you actually performing best in? What are your personal preferences? Are you training in the morning? Are you training in the evening? All these other factors that are now, again, textualize are my true answer. And I hate to be wishwashy on that, but that's the most honest answer because I deal with a lot of people with different goals and different scenarios. So the science can lead us in one direction, but the actual layering on top of what would I really recommend a human do, that in this scenario matters more. So if you look at the research very specifically on fasting exercise, always depends on the type of exercise. You mentioned you were really careful

about saying, like, I'm under 60 minutes, right? I'm under 60 minutes. Like, I know, you're aware that that answer will change, right? What am I optimizing for? Am I optimizing for performance? Am I optimizing for feeling better that day? More focused that day? Am I optimizing for the happiness, personal? There's so many different reasons why one would exercise

that you have to answer all those questions to figure out, well, what lever am I trying to pull here? What am I trying to get out of it? So do we have people, am I, I'll answer this way. Do we ever take somebody and say, hey, you need to start doing your endurance work in the morning fasted? I can't think of very many times when we've ever done that. But if somebody shows up with that, well, we don't have any strong reason.

We're not going to pull them off of it either. What if someone says I'm interested in fat adaptation? I'm interested in mitochondrial health. And I'm not an endurance athlete. I'm just, you know, these are my recovery days. I do strength training on other days. These are my recovery days, so to speak, right, in a way. Then would you still kind of, what are your thoughts on that?

So you mentioned mito adaptations aren't, it's a subtle difference. But what about lipolisus? Like, what about, you know? Yeah. So the way that we would frame this is we need more information on them to determine whether or not that's going to actually matter for them. So if they're saying, okay, I want to enhance fat burning. I want to enhance oxidative capacity.

Great. Well, we actually need to look at their capacity for metabolic flexibility. We need to test that. I need to see that number, right? If you're just saying you want more, I'm going to say more from where. Like, where are you currently at? I don't know. Well, then we don't know if we have anything to actually gain here.

So we can do that intervention, and I don't know if we would do anything for you. If you're already pegged on that, if your mitochondria already functioning very high, if your ability to utilize fuel independent of food is strong, then we're not going to get anything from that. If you're really weak in that area, then we would get something from it. So our first answer is data, right? We have to run some objective test. If you don't want to do that or can't do that, you want to give that a try, sure. Like, fine.

It's probably not going to hurt much in the short term. So go ahead and do that. So my answer to somebody who asked that question, like I want to optimize mitochondria. Okay, great. Starting off with faster cardio is not the place we would go, but we might use it eventually. If you can do a whole bunch of stuff,

and we can do this objectively. Okay, when you go out and train, how do you feel if you don't eat before? Oh, I feel terrible. Okay, well, that's like an easy litmus test to say maybe we have some stuff we can do there. There's way more we get into in detail. I wouldn't only ask that question,

but that's how we would actually think. about that answer. So it could be everything from yes to like I'm not super worried about it. If they're really, really stoked to do it, I'm probably going to say yes, just for that fact alone. Like, yeah, let's give it a go. But I don't necessarily think you would have to do that to have healthy mitochondria if that's another way to answer the question. What about people that are doing strength training, resistance training first thing in the morning and they don't have a lot of time. They're getting their kids ready for school. And it's like they want to feel with something. Like what's the best option?

Personal preference in terms of feeding or not feeding. The literature would be fairly clear here. I would say our personal experience would match that. Some people are fine. Some people are not. If you want to go just like practical recommendations, a banana and a protein shake, super easy, a little bit of yogurt maybe in granola.

We have a lot of our athletes that will train in the morning. That's a really common thing. Some granola, yogurt, maybe honey, maybe some berries, small six to eight ounces, right? Really small servings, you're talking probably 300 calories, maybe 50 grams of carbohydrate, like in these rough neighborhoods of things,

some little protein, 10 to 30 grams, depending on their physical size. Remember, some of our athletes are 115 pounds, some of them are 350 pounds. So like the number is very small size is different for those people. So personal preference,

but yeah, the recommendations would be things like that. We don't have too many athletes or clients that we'll intentionally ask them to not eat before they try. rain like we sort of talked about but the easy quick just get out the door stuff that's what we're going to lean on like very simple easy digesting small amounts of food probably not as much as your full breakfast but those things will tend to work pretty well yeah i don't i think athletes are less interested in in that and people that are more interested in body recomposition they're wanting to

lose fat gain muscle um are more interested in okay well perhaps they're that that kind of person that their liver glycogen takes more hours before it depletes. And then it's like, well, if I then eat before my run, then I didn't fully deplete the liver glycogen. And so they're not going to be perhaps undergoing lipolysis and oxidizing fatty acids for energy. So what about what about people that are interested in that are fit and they're not really athletes, but they're exercisers?

and they're interested in just sort of fat loss, body recomposition. The acute time frame pre-mid post exercise for those people probably doesn't matter that much. It really isn't going to have a huge impact. What will matter is the days and weeks, the total caloric expenditure throughout the day. This person, if you're training in the morning,

you probably have at least 24 hours to recover, right? Even if you're training hard every single day. Most of the time when we get really specific about nutrient timing, it's because a lot of our clientele are training twice or more a day. That's when timing really is critical, whether you're talking about timing of fat, protein, and carbohydrates. So when we hear people say things like, oh, timing doesn't matter. For the average person, it's not a huge deal.

But for some of our people, it really significantly matters. But what you just described is not. It's that other person who's like, I'm exercising, let's just even say seven days a week. Probably most people are doing like five. So even in between that, you've got a lot of recovery time. So what you have before the workout doesn't matter a huge amount. Whether you have it immediately post, doesn't matter a huge amount.

The total end throughout the day. The only caveat is actually what you asked a little bit before. It's personal preference. I don't feel as well. Okay, great. I'm stomach. Awesome. That's the context.

It's not the physiology or the biology that's mattering there. It's now personal preference or objective data that says we're getting less performance out of this. Your recovery is slowing down one of the cases. So overall, I would say do what, feels best for you there. And there's not a significant thing you should be worried about of productivity you're leaving on the table, progress you're leaving on the table, or compromised results from no matter what choice you make there, whether it is fats, the protein, or the carbohydrates. What about people that are doing time-restricted eating? And, you know,

the worry of time-restricted eating would be losing muscle. Yeah. Perhaps if you're not getting in your protein intake or resistance training. What are your thoughts there? What, you've a new publication now. You've published in this area. How do you feel about people that are doing, let's say, a 16-8 time-restricted eating? Yeah. So we actually ran this study. We started in 2019, and we just published it this week. That tells you, you know how that goes. COVID killed us. We had a big cohort study going, our last two groups. I was like literally days away from doing the final biopsies. And we got pulled out of the lab. And I was like begging our people. I'm like, just let me one day go in a biopsy 10 people. No, they wouldn't. So nonetheless, we ran this study and one of the things we're

interested in is with time restricted D and 168, all the research on that area for the most part is caloric restriction. So how does this thing work for fat loss? And that's fine. Grant Tinsley, I don't know if you know Grant, but he's done a ton of work at Texas Tech and lots of other groups have done it. You've talked a lot about TRI 168 tons. Okay, great. What I was more interested is what's the opposite? What about the person who's trying to gain muscle? If I do 16-8, what's actually happening here? And because of the way that I operate, I don't care about just a molecular mechanism. I don't care just about body composition. I wanted to ask questions about sleep, about personal preference, about how hard the diet was, how likely are you to do it, physical performance?

Because when you go into the real world, that's how you make decisions, right? I want to be able to tell people, hey, this 16-8, maybe it is better for body composition, but it's harder to follow. or it makes your sleep worse, or it's better for everything. Like, whatever combination the answer is going to be, I don't really care. But that's the full context people have in the make dietary decisions. So that's what we did. We took people that were very well trained, and we did eight weeks of strength training with them. In the lab, supervised, all that, already, again, previously well trained, men and women,

college age as normal. We did biopsies. We did muscle imaging. We did questionnaires. We did sleep stuff. We did blood. We did a bunch of different things. And ultimately, what we wanted to see was, okay,

we're going to put them all at the same protein load, and we're going to put them in caloric excess. So hypercaloric, not hypochloric. We know the answer what happens with TRE if you're trying to lose weight. What happens in somebody actively trying to gain muscle? So that's the very unique twist of it. And it was super interesting. The take-home message was it didn't matter a ton.

As long as you hit your numbers, the results were basically the same across both groups. So standard four or five, six feedings a day versus TRI. Now, we actually like doubled down. down on the question because we actually made the people train in the TRE group in the morning and then they had to wait at least an hour before they fueled afterwards. So they trained fasted, they didn't recover with protein or anything like that immediately afterwards and they stayed in that state until, you know, the afternoon. So even despite of that, it didn't significantly

compromise muscle growth or performance or really anything else. We saw some subtle differences. the TRE group actually looked like it didn't gain as much body fat because you're going to do that when you go hypochloric, right? You're going to, especially if you're well-trained. You want to add muscle. You're going to bring some fat along for the route. I don't know if it was enough of a difference. And I spent a lot of time in that data set.

I don't know if that's a real finding, to be honest, or if that was just a little bit of an artifact. The counter to it was, as time went on, fatigue got higher in the TRE. group. Legs got heavier performance. The legs started to decline. Again, so much so what I suggest, TRE is going to be bad. No, no, but it was like, okay, I think there's something happening here. I think potentially if we were to change the study design a little bit and give them fuel closer, that would have made it not exactly sure. We would have to run a separate study design for that. And so if you torture the data a little bit, you might find some subtle differences

between the two groups, and they were, you know, statistically significant and effect size and like all those things there. But looking at it from a real practitioner perspective, my general take home was, it didn't matter a ton. If you're trying to maximize leg strength and maximize leg growth, I probably wouldn't go to 16-8 TRE. But if you have other reasons to do it, you're still going to get gains.

They still got stronger. They didn't get as strong. There's some other issues that happened, but either one of them works. But do you think, again, Again, if they were a lot, I mean, most people, after they're done strength training, they eat within an hour. Like, I immediately am getting protein to me because I, like, need, I just, my body wants it. Yeah.

So do you think that maybe would negate some of the performance deficits that you found? I think it would, honestly, it was more of a carbohydrate issue. Carbohydrates. Yeah, I think that was the bigger issue because they were going so long without carbohydrates. And they were training so hard. And they were doing the same workout multiple times per week. I just think over time, we were also progressing them. So they were being tested every time they came in the lab and the training got harder, right?

Like traditional progressive overload. I don't think they, I wish we had actually biopsy data for their muscle glycogen levels. But if I had to suspect, I think that that was starting to leak down. And I just think the legs were getting, we would say, just getting heavier over time. Like it just wasn't handling the volume because that's actually what happened to. The volume that the TRE group did

started to come down at the end. They just couldn't do as much volume as the other group could do. Okay, at the end of a workout, not like at the end of the eight weeks. Sorry, no, at the end of the eight weeks. Oh, okay. So.

Because we tested them pre, mid, and post. When were they working out morning or evening morning? Yep, so they're all working out fasted. Fasted. They're doing strength training fasted. Yeah. So let's, okay. So the bottom line is from your study,

which is going to be published soon. Depending on when this comes out, it may already be there. Like any day. Any day. I'm stunned. It actually hasn't happened. Congratulations.

This is great. This is a great study. You sent it to me. I can't wait to read it. You can gain muscle on a 16-8 time-restricted eating schedule. Yeah. It sounds like if you're doing the training fasted, I mean, there's ways to do 16-8.

You can stop eating earlier and not have to be fasted in the morning, right? Well, so actually, like, that's super interesting because when I looked at this, I was like, man, I think that's just just a better approach. Maybe if they would have done their fasting in the evening afternoon, there's a bunch of other arguments we could make that that's better anyways. That would be a really cool follow-up. And I would, I'd be willing to bet they wouldn't have had such an indirect, indirect markers of fatigue over time.

They just didn't have fuel for a really long time. I could also tell you these things behind. And this is like the veil of people that when you run actual studies, you can make comments about things that aren't in the paper. the people had a really hard time with the carbohydrates. That was the complaint. And so when you had a whole bunch, because you're getting,

some of these people are at 6, 700 grams of carbohydrate today. And you've got to get that in an 8-hour window. GI was just destroyed. Like it was a lot of people were like, man, my stomach is just blowing up from 600 grams of carbohydrates. Could you imagine eating 200 grams of carbohydrates? A couple hours later you got another 200, another 200.

It was just a lot. Was it so high? because you were doing this hyper-caloric because, I mean, most people aren't doing that many carbohydrates unless they're like endurance athletes. Yeah, well, we had big, we have some big people, right? So if you're 110 kilos and you've got to be at a hypochloric, and you're at, you know, six grams per kilogram of body weight, like those numbers get high fast. So in order to get there, like that stuff got there. Even the protein got a little tough as well. So we didn't see, I wish we would have had more subjective questions in those areas. But that,

what I would say like it was just hard for those people to hit their numbers most of them got there but they're just like whoa I just wish I had another hour like give me another two hours could I get 50 this grams of this protein a little bit earlier that would make my life so much easier so I just think from a practical perspective it was harder for them to follow it was harder for them to hit their numbers waiting the whole day than to start and hit it in a caloric surplus so if you're not a caloric surplus, different equation here. If you're in a caloric deficit, different equation here. But for people that are pre-trained, pretty well-trained, they're actively trying to get bigger and stronger, it wouldn't be the first approach I would take. But it's still plausible. Clearly it worked. They

still got benefits from it. But switching the order, I think, would be cool. Would you say that if they were, let's say they were in a slight caloric deficit, still getting their protein, meeting their protein needs, would they be still gaining muscle, you think? I don't think it would have gained as much. They would have gained some, right? If you look at, like, again, all grants work and a lot of that hypochloric state stuff, sometimes I gain muscle. It can happen, but can they gain at the same rate as when you add more calories?

I don't think so. And I don't think so because in our particular program, the training program was really aggressive. They were training hard for really well-trained people. I don't think the recovery would be there. I just don't think it would be there. When did they stop eating and how was their sleep affected? So we let them choose their window.

So some of them came in at trained at like 7 o'clock in the morning because they want to start their eating window at 10. Right. But they're college kids. So most of them trained like 10, 11, 12 o'clock in the morning. And then they would start through eating windows, you know, between 1 and 2 o'clock in the afternoon, like something like that. Depends on if they work or whatever there. So we let them shift a little bit.

The time domains had to be the same. But when the, like we didn't make them start at noon. Like, you know, depending on their life schedule. sleep didn't really change that much. I wish we would have had some of our newer sleep technology. We could have really objectively looked at it at the time. We just had basic questionnaires. So we'll see there.

What we did notice is the perceived fatigue and naps increased over time in the TRI group. And so again, a little inclination there of saying, I think fatigue was setting in more. didn't some of that didn't land statistically significant but you start to see sort of multiple things in the same pattern you go all right if we run a follow-up study there that might be interesting to focus on why is it important for people to have carbohydrates before they're doing strength training you don't have to if you can get away with it you're fine it's not the thing we're super concerned about depending on where you're at if you can get through it if

your total caloric intake throughout the day is fine if your carbohydrate intake throughout the day is fine. And depending on how often your strength training, if you're the kind of typical person who's training the same body part on non-consecutive days, then carbohydrate pre-exercise is not a big deal. It's totally fine. You can get away with your strength training. It'd be a personal preference again. If you're training, though, the same muscle group in multiple days or multiple times per day, that's when the carbohydrate timing will matter most. So you can have it before. Generally, people feel better with it. Performance is usually better, but It's not always.

Or if you're someone that is on more of a hypochaloric diet, if you're trying to lose fat or perhaps maintain your weight, you're kind of really kind of watching your calories, then perhaps you're not having a huge total caloric, you know, totally caloric intake per day that you might want to have carbohydrates in that. We will generally, as just a high-level rule, try to get more of our calories around training. Just period. regardless of what we're doing, regardless of what type of training, regardless of the person, as a first level thing, that's our preference.

We want to either do it pre-mid post. In your example there, if we're trying to bring calories down, we're going to go somewhere else if we can. It doesn't always work that way. People don't always like it. But that is our default position is, yeah, we're going to do more calories in and around the training to support it. I want better performance.

You perform better, you get better adaptations. That's generally how we look at it. What about people that are more endurance type of athletes? They're outrunning, you know, 10, 15 or more miles or cycling, biking. What about those individuals? Different equation now, right? So whether you talk about strength training or even endurance training, but as you said earlier, like you're talking sub 60 minutes at kind of a moderate to low intensity,

carbohydrate before training for most people is not going to matter that much. Now you're talking about something different. really high intensity exercise for a prolonged amount and or moderate exercise for a longer amount, right? So we'll define longer by plus 60 minutes. Now you will very often see performance improvements with carbohydrates. That said, we have some of our people, some of our friends, a good friend of mine that I will never stop giving him the business on this one. Cam Haynes, you know Cam? Oh yeah, Cam's great. The worst performance nutrition you could just possibly dream of, right? Like, he will intentionally not eat and drink water and then go run 18 miles,

right? And you're just like, what, like, what are we doing here, right? I've made the argument, like, I will PR him in every race he's ever done if he would just like let me tell him, he would just follow what I tell him to do, but he refuses. So you can do these things. This is not a matter of, it's impossible physiologically, but are you going to get your best out of it? Probably not. Carbohydrates before exercise, probably three or four hours before exercise, if possible, if you're trying to maximize performance, generally looking at something in the neighborhood of 50 to 100 grams of carbohydrates,

that's a huge plus or minus range there, three or four hours before. We were generally looking at starches, slower digesting, like give it time, not a big spike. Some people, we will tinker with 30 minutes before something in the neighborhood of 50, 60 grams of carbohydrates, maybe a little bit more. Some people, though, kind of deal with

a glucose double whammy if you do that. So you've got to be careful. careful. What I mean is if you take a whole bunch of fast responding glucose, things are getting your bloodstream really quickly, right before you start exercising, insulin starts pulling glucose down, muscle starts pulling it as well, and so blood glucose actually dips. This is a like, I had a banana and honey right before I started my race, and then I got two miles in and I felt like death. Like, okay, you had two mechanisms at the same time that are independent, that are bringing it down, and blood glucose actually dips quite a bit

until the liver has a chance to kick in and bring it back to normalize. So you'll feel that response pretty often. So you've got to be really careful with easy digesting carbohydrates right before the event and depending on how long it's going to last. But those are like rough numbers to start with.

In the exercise itself, the numbers you're going to see here somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 grams up to 100 grams of carbohydrate per hour, which is like if you want to maximize performance, you'll see the data will show you like 80 plus, 80 to 100 grams. What kind of carbohydrates you're talking? You don't want that easy stuff, right?

No, now you want the fastest possible. Oh, you do want the fast. You're in a race, right? You're moving, right? This is when the goos and the packs and things. It didn't. So you're trying to smash it in there as much as you can. I actually just had a guy named Jordy Sullivan,

a dietitian in Australia. He was just on my podcast, and he actually coached a guy named Ned Brockman. and Ned did a thousand mile race on a track so he ran on a track for a thousand miles and it took him like 11 or 12 days

something like that to finish did he I mean how was the sleeping what was the sleeping like the sleeping situation sleep on the track right there yeah yeah yeah he was just like lay down and crash for a little bit and then he'd get up and just like run again and he just kept going

he Jordie went through the exact details, exactly what he fed him, the amounts, the concentration. And when you get into things like that, when Michael's getting ready for this 900 mile hike thing, 60 to 80 to 100 grams of carbohydrate per hour is awesome in the lab. And I put you on a bike and you're in my research facility. Like those are the numbers at work. When you cross over into humans, you start getting really tired of goo. Like don't want to taste sugary drinks anymore. And so when you get past a couple of hours of exercise, then you actually start really paying attention to texture and flavor profile

and mouth feel because that stuff starts to matter. And you can't hit those numbers. They're just not realistic. So if you're going to try to do something like this, pick your poison in terms of the carbohydrate source. This is the fast sugars. But if you're going to go for more in a couple of hours, you've got to really think carefully about, are you sure you're going to like that taste of that for six hours? Because you probably won't. It's just incredible. I can't believe people do. things like that. What about carbohydrate replenishment after a long endurance type of workout? Do you think that's important to replenish the glycogen stores? Depends on what you had starting with. So did you feed before or did you not? Right?

That is automatically our context. If you fed before, then we don't have to worry about as much directly after. If you're fasted, we've got to worry about more. The other context we have to pay attention to. Again, what's our total caloric intake? What's our carbohydrate intake throughout the day? And when are we going to train again? Some of our folks, again, training multiple times per day, we are going to go absolutely out of our way to get 100 grams of carbohydrate post-exercise if it's a hard training session. It's a rough number. Again, that number of scales up and down with physical size and caloric expenditure, things like that. If you're going to get on a plane and drive and you're going to do something else for the next two days, carbohydrate post-exercise

Like the amount doesn't matter. It's not a big deal. You're up against a race of replenishment time. If that matters, you want to, again, look for 100-ish grams of carbohydrate pretty close to finishing. And unlike protein, timing matters. The faster you get that carbohydrate in, the faster you will replenish muscle and liver glycogen. Protein, as you've covered many times, like timing, anabolic window, like not a big deal at all. But carbohydrates are different.

you got to repeat that performance again soon, faster, more, better. If you got a lot of time, then your recovery windows plenty, then you're going to be fine. Or even if you're just training for a race, right? If you're training like every day, you're probably going to want to get that replenishment in right away. Well, in that case, actually, that's a great point because it's not only necessarily just about recovering for your next workout, but you actually need to train that system. So one mistake people make when they do endurance events like that is they will forget to mimic the race in training. So then when they get into training, they try to do something, they haven't done it

before, and their bodies can freak out. This is when you get a lot of GI distress, when you get a lot of your tapering and, you know, the week before, all of a sudden, your performance is down and you're like, what's going on? Well, you're doing something different now than you were doing the last eight weeks. And so, yeah, I would actually strongly encourage you to treat your practice races like your real race. So do your pre-mid, post-fueling strategies in preparation for that. So then when you show up, your body's like, yep, this is exactly what we do. This is exactly how we handle people for the Super Bowl, for World Championship events, for the Olympics. You try to make those big events where they're so incredibly important and there's so much pressure and stress and that you want to make it feel like

a normal practice. This is just what we do. So while most of you aren't going to be on that stage, I get it, when you go run that first 5K, like that's still going to be a really, you're going to be really excited and it's going to feel like that. Your body is going to know, wow, this is something I care about. Or you go and you finally get to surf that wave that you've been wanting to do, or whatever the thing is, you go on that hunt that you've been wanting to go after. The thing you can control the most is making your day feel like you've been training. It's a normal process.

This is what we do. This is how we warm up. This is the thing we take. The more you can do that, the more consistent response you're going to have the more predictable response. And that way you can check out of those things and let your body just do what it's been ingrained to do. So, yeah, I would definitely recommend that post-carbohydrate,

for that individual, simply for those purposes. What kind of effect does that have on performance? Is it pretty noticeable? I mean, if you're... Yeah. It is everything from I bonged to what happened. I felt flat. Everything went away, what's going on, to now I hit the PR.

Like, if you play with these things correctly, you should feel your best on competition day. There's some of our sports that this is not possible because of weight cutting and other dumb things we have to do. But for the most part, this is the stuff that matters. This is the like, there's nothing worse than when you PR a week after competition. Like, there's just nothing worse, right? You're like, our IPR the week before or the week after.

These are little details that make you land on the right day, in the right time, in that one race, that one event. That's how we help people smash those things and they don't just go, well, we're just going to train kind of hard and we hope that you show up the day and perform. We want to take all those questions out of it. So, yeah, it'll make everything from, again, I tanked, I bombed, I failed, out to I had my best performance ever. To kind of go back to the original question about eating for longevity versus performance, now we're kind of talking about here. Oh man, we're on question one still. Well, no, I just kind of wanted, I wanted to circle back because if we are talking about someone that is racing, right, they're competing, they're trying to PR, they're, you know,

all of those things. Then the carbohydrate sources that they're eating aren't going to be what I'm eating. I'm not going to be, I'm certainly not going to be chugging the goo, but like, the fast, like during, like, intra workout, right, while you're, while you're racing, or even perhaps, like you were saying, right before, you know, eating, eating the quick, like the stuff that's going to spike your blood glucose quickly isn't typically stuff that people that are eating for a longevity type of, like my, my carbohydrate sources are typically vegetables, you know, fruits that have a food fiber matrix, most of the time, I mean, some fruits can hit your body a little quicker than others, like grapes, for example.

But, you know, most of the carbohydrate source are more complex carbohydrates. Yeah. So fair point. This is that small sliver difference at the end, right? So again, if we look at your, we actually have probably, I don't know, five females right now that we're coaching that are plus around your body size. So we'll make just equivalence to you and those. those individuals. We take both your diets for you and all those different girls that are in different

sports. They're going to be almost identical, right? So they're going to be heavily focused on vegetables and starches and fruit and all those things. What would that difference be? Well, okay, some of them post-training might do a powdered glucose source. So we might give them a carbohydrate supplement. We might use a Vitargo or something like that where it's like a scooped carbohydrate where you're probably never having that. You're not having it throughout the day. You're not having it pre-imposed your workout. You don't need 60 grams of carbohydrate that's easily diet. So that would be different, right?

But what are they going to have post-workout? I don't know, watermelon. Like, they're going to have things that you're probably eating too. Do we have a little more liberty with them to add some more grapes? Sure. But you could also probably eat grapes too. You would just take something else, like out or move it around, or you would have more protein when you have the grapes or whatever different strategies we do.

It's really small the amount of, of goos and powders and things like that that we're doing, we're going to eat 95% of their calories as whole real food. You got a little bit of supplements on the end and things like that, but we're not going to spend too much time with low-quality foods, even for those individuals. I want them eating real whole healthy foods. So that is, it's a really small difference, I guess.

So, yeah, in some of those situations, but for the most part, your diet and their diets would be very identical. So fat often gets overshadowed by protein and carbohydrates. Yeah. Where does fat come into the equation of, you know, meeting your fitness goals, whether you're an endurance athlete or strength training or not necessarily an athlete, just someone who's interested in being healthy and exercising and, you know, looking for the longevity aspects of diet and exercise?

Yeah. So I would say, I mean, you positioned it pretty well. most people will start with protein lock that thing in and then you'll play with carbohydrates and fat as a way to adjust overall caloric intake and because we know the role of carbohydrates and exercise performance we will usually go to that second and then fat gets the third consideration like okay fine whatever calories we have left we backfill with fat and as long as your fat isn't too low and it's too low chronically then you're not going to really run into too many issues with having insufficient amount of intake of fat dietary fat. That said, this is something

I've changed my tune on a lot. I come from the classic exercise physiology academic background, and all those people are carbohydrates first, carbohydrate second, third, fourth, and like fat was always shunned. And I don't think I don't think I believe that as much anymore. I also, we've experienced a lot. A lot of the people we worked with, they're fine. on moderate to low carbohydrate, even high exercises, non-athletes, but they train a ton. You're talking about guys and girls running 60 miles per week, right? Like real high energy expenditures in terms of performance,

and they're at 100 grams of carbohydrate today. They're not in ketosis at all. They're not even trying to be, but they just are fine at 150 grams a day, or 200 grams of carbohydrate today, right? For 120 to 190-pound, like, individuals kind of at that, just as some frame of reference for numbers there. In that case, their fat intakes are way higher.

And they're fine. We're not seeing any performance decrements. They're not having a hard time recovering. Their sleep isn't going down. Like sex hormones are fine. So I actually have just seen enough evidence now anecdotally and empirically being like, I think actually you're fine there. I think you're okay.

If you're giving yourself, if your endogenous recovery is sufficient, I think you're going to be just fine there. So what we do with carbohydrates and fat for that person you're describing is we let personal preference drive us a lot, right? We also will change it just so that you can have some dietary changes. Like fat tastes delicious. It's really hard. It's really bland when you don't get to have a lot of fat in your diet.

So sometimes we'll bring carbohydrate down for a while and let them have more fat if we need to manage calories. We don't generally see that much for the average person. Like we don't see that many consequences performance-wise. So I don't think most people are going to have this huge like, oh my God, I'm not recovering anymore. If you're doing a normal amount of exercise, I think you're going to be just fine. Some people think if they're eating a high-fat diet, low-carb diet, and they're doing endurance type of exercise, they're more heavily biased towards endurance training, that they're going to be more fat-adapted,

they're going to be more metabolically flexible, and their mitochondrial adaptations are going to be superior. I would not support that statement. I would disagree with that. this is a great one. So the term metabolic flexibility has been hijacked. And the way that it is described now colloquially is not what that phrase ever started to be and it's not what that is intended to be. It's so crazy because metabolic flexibility has got turned into maximizing fat burning. It's supposed to be metabolic flexibility, which means you have the ability to run the whole gamut. I get it. If you pluck

the average person off the street, they're probably less likely to be good at burning fat than they are carbohydrate. So on aggregate, we probably need to get more people better at burning fat. I'm with you on that one. But metabolic flexibility is not just maximized fat burning. Those are not the same thing. And that's how people will often describe that. If you go too hard on one side of the other of the equation, you'll see a whole host of adaptations that compromise the ability to do the other things. That's not metabolic flexibility. That is still specialization. You're just specializing the other side of the equation. If that's what you want to do, fine. You know, we're all for it. But we generally like to see people truly flexible on both sides. So if you want to go higher fat in your

performance, because you feel better, you like it, great. If you can demonstrate no issues, we're all for it. But if we're doing it for a theoretical idea and you don't actually have information behind that, then we're not going to support those ideas. So you want to go higher fat? Great. We have had some people where we've tinked around with some number of people. Actually, tink it around with different things. We try a higher fat diet and they actually do perform better. So we stay with that, right? Like even independent of any metabolic flexibility data we've got in them, great, we're going to stay on that. And then we've had others that are the opposite. So these are these really long, long duration endurance folks that are out there and they just don't

do well when carbohydrates get low. And so we have to have room for both of those realities. Some people will perform better on a higher fat diet for more fat oxidizing, lower intensity things, and some will just do a lot better. I'm on those. And to finish up the point, I'm talking about long-duration endurance events that are both fast and slow. So if you look at,

to be ridiculous, like we were talking about Cam earlier, you look at some, Rob, you know, producer, these guys are under two and a half-hour marathon times, right? Cam's higher, but, you know, Rob's a two-and-half-hour. He's fat.

He's going to be burning, I don't know, I don't have metabolic data on him, but 70 to 80% carbohydrate in the marathon. So that's a long-duration endurance event, but that is not a fat-burning event. That is a carbohydrate game, right? If you want to run a marathon fast, that is a carbohydrate game. If you want to run a really, really long one and you don't care about speed, you're still going to burn a boatload of carbohydrates. But now we can afford to go slower with more fat oxidation.

And so when we say endurance, there's also like another level of question. It was like, okay, fast endurance or just like, endurance for the long term. So all that goes into our calculus of thinking about how we're going to fuel somebody, how we're going to ask them to recover. To get to the, like to go back a few minutes earlier, Jordy was talking about this with Ned Brockman, like a thousand miles. He's not giving him fat only. He's not on an 80% fat. Like that is his most fat oxidation possible thing you could come up with, a thousand dang miles. And he's still relying heavily on carbohydrates to get him through. So I don't know if that actually answers your question, but you can

think about, like, that's the stuff that we frame it against. Well, yeah, it does answer the question. It's basically like, no, you don't have to. You don't have to be eating, eating a higher fat diet isn't necessarily going to make you better up burning fat. Oh, no, definitely not. I certainly think that, you know, when it comes down to that metabolic flexibility exercise, again, like when you're, when you're doing a lot of exercise, you become, you're, you actually are becoming met about more metabolically flexible through exercise in my, in my opinion. Absolutely. Than anything else.

Actually, I think the one thing that's kind of interesting here that does get left, the way that we think about metabolic flexibility is more of innate human skill rather than an exercise performance one, such that I think you all, we all should have the ability to go for six hours and not have any food and still perform cognitively. You shouldn't be hungry and cranky because you missed lunch, right? Like that is now you're in the kind of like, you're not super resilient. Whether this is a metabolic flexibility issue or not, if that's happening consistently with you, I would say we have some room to grow with metabolic health likely, right? You should probably be able to go 24 hours and maintain cognitive function and maintain physical performance. If you've ever, you've done some fasting, like longer fasting stuff, right?

You should be able to not eat any calories for 24 hours and still exercise. right you're not deplete really of very much anything if you're the person who is the like i can't do anything i skipped lunch or didn't get to break then i think we have some stuff to do but this is more of like you probably are lacking some innate physiological skills that are going to help you in multiple ways but past that uh the metabolic flexibility thing is again not often packaged correctly in my opinion what do you think about so you know i've had marty cabala on the podcast talking about high intensity interval training and you know how obviously when you're doing a lot of people think when you're like doing hit that it's like this all I'm only burning glucose right you know if I'm doing

zone two I'm only burning fat only oxidizing fat and using mitochondria and they don't realize there's actually a lot of gray going on like you're doing high intensity interval training types of exercise you're yeah you're you're you know going above the lactate threshold you're you're using glucose as fuel but you're also still using your mitochondria right I mean you're yeah you're pushing the hard and there are many things to say about poor understanding of metabolism is how I'll say that there is no way to fully metabolize carbohydrate without oxidation you just can't right like you can run through you can do it it's probably not the most interesting thing but you can't get very far anaerobically with even carbohydrate you have to finish that story aerobically does that mean your fuel in

exercise itself is the same as the total net expenditure? No. So in the case of Marty's work and high intensity stuff, yeah, in the actual exercise bout itself, you're going to be well above anaerobic threshold. You're going to be well above an RER of 1.0, right? You're going to get really, really, in fact, we have seen many times 1.3s, 1.4s, right, for RERs or RQs. That's mathematically impossible. 1.0 means 100%. So what you mean is like the, the, the, the, the, the, the carbon dioxide expenditure is so exceeding aerobic or oxidative intake that your numbers get like astronomically high. So yes.

But that said, those, anything you just burn there that's sitting either in lactate or in pyruvate or some other intermediate form there, it's going to be finished in the mitochondria with oxidation. You want to recover faster? And I'm talking about within the minutes to hours post exercise as well as a couple of days. now this is an aerobic capacity issue. That's how you handle these things. For our athletes that fight in five, five-minute rounds, like in the UFC, or we do 12 rounds in boxing,

whatever the case is, there is a huge aerobic component to that, huge, despite the fact that they are going as hard as possible, they are pegged heart rate-wise and other things, getting them to recover, especially from session to session, the morning workout to the evening workout, the higher functioning aerobic capacity we have there,

and I don't mean VL2 max, per se there. I truly mean aerobic capacity. That is a huge component of their ability to recover and to not be completely trashed the next state. The ones that are really,

really smashed anaerobically, like really high, they can't train as much. We have to back them off more. The volume has to be lower. We have to be really strategic. We run into injuries more frequently. We run into just physiologically

running into the ground. Our recovery metrics get lower. The taper has to be longer. We have to just make adjustments with calories. They can't handle as much. The ones that are higher in aerobic fitness they can handle things more. There's consequences of that too, but yeah,

you can pick the highest intensity thing you could possibly do and there's still, like, anaerobic and aerobic is not two different things. It's the same gear, right? It's the top side and bottom side of the same gear. There's not different units. They're just, you know, the front side and the back side of that. So they will always complement each other. They're not distinct things.

I mean, look at all of, George's work on lactate. Like, we know these answers now. This is not a one system. These are not different systems. These are just the different side of the same coin. Right. No, it's true.

I mean, it's, but people like to kind of put this. I think Lane explained this in a good way, how people like just put things in bins. Like it's like this bin or this bin. And it's like, well, there's sometimes there's a lot of, there's not bins. They're just kind of just overlap.

That's rarely how physiology works. Yeah. Right? We have redundant systems on purpose. I kind of wanted to ask you just because we were talking about the timing of, we talked about the anabolic window for carbohydrates, how they truly does seem to be an importance there with respect to at least if you're doing more endurance type of training and you want to be ready for the next day. But protein, you know, Stu Phillips has been on, LeuGla Van Loon,

you're in agreement that really the anabolic window is more of it. It's more of the total daily protein intake. Is that, I mean, I guess, you know, when Lane came on the podcast, He said maybe there's a little something you can squeeze out if you're like top level. Yeah. You know, type of. Yeah. Powerlifter, muscle bodybuilder, whatever. Yeah.

And honestly, that comes down, though, to practicality. It's just simply because I said earlier. It's just really hard to get 400 grams of protein in a day. So you just end up having to do protein like all the, like, yeah. Right. Yeah. Look at Mike Ormsby's work at a Florida State. He's done all that pre-bed carbohydrate stuff or protein ingestion stuff.

So it's like 40 grams of protein 30 minutes. before bed. Now, in all that stuff, he hasn't shown these huge massive benefits to it. He actually doesn't show any consequences either. So you don't compromise fat. You don't gain more fat. You don't reduce fat oxidation by having this big bowls of protein right before bed. And so the way he will package that is to say, if you're struggling to hit your total protein numbers, this is just another window to get you there. If your protein numbers are fine, though, there's no added benefit here. There's no huge win. So that just is another example, I think, of this point. When it comes to the protein game, probably what Lane was saying, like, if this is just maybe a way for you to smack in 15 more grams

or 20 or 40, then great. But outside of that, there's no magic benefit. Yeah. Luke Van Loon actually did a few studies. I don't know if he collaborated with the person just mentioned, but also on this pre-sleep protein loading where it's like they're giving people protein, a bowl of protein, right before. bed and it does increase muscle protein synthesis while they're sleeping. And, you know, again, I think the way he also framed it was you're, you're getting more of your total protein. You're getting more of that, you know, total protein for the day. But also it seems to make a difference for like elderly people who are just terrible at getting, making, meeting that protein requirement, you know, for whatever reason. I don't know. It's just hard to chew or chew food or their appetite is,

they don't have, you know, their appetite hormones are kind of disregulated, whatever the reason. So what I wanted to ask you about, because it was kind of interesting, I saw a study you were a co-author on with respect to protein, kind of on that sort of same, you know, token people meeting, it's hard for some people to take in 1.6 grams per kilogram body weight or more, right? Right? Tough. So they're taking protein powders. They're doing the protein powder. It's the easiest thing, right? What are your thoughts on Whole Foods versus powders? Now, you published an interesting study on, on egg white powder versus the whole egg. Yeah, yeah. But I'd love to like to know your thoughts in general.

Yeah, that was actually a pretty cool study. Whole food is always the answer, right? That is always our default position. If we ever have to go to supplements or even supplemental food, like a protein powder or a powdered carbohydrate, that is our second choice. Full stop right there. that particular paper and actually set of studies on that

found basically the same thing. So whole egg versus egg white. And it turns out potentially, we don't have mechanisms behind this, but potentially some of the stuff that's in the egg yolk itself was contributing to additional muscle growth, micronutriotriot-wise, vitamin D, right, of course, and like any number of things are in there.

Collin. Absolutely, right? Whether those actually were the case, I don't get, we didn't have mechanism on those. It was just sort of like, why do you think this is happening? even when you match it for calories, seems to be the case. Nonetheless, to back out your question, yeah, it's a whole food answer, right?

If we can get there with whole food, and I will say this, we have many of our professional athletes that take almost no supplements. And they definitely don't supplement protein powder. Some of them don't like it. It doesn't set well with their diet. You don't have to have protein powder ever.

I can't think of a compelling reason why outside of practical, you know, easier flavor, taste, whatever. So protein very specifically, whole food, muscle growth, whole food. There are other use cases for other supplements and things of other strategies, but that is our answer. And I think that that paper you're referring to, showed the same thing. Yeah, I was kind of, it was, I was a little shocked, to be honest, because, you know, protein was equated, calories were equated. And they were, they were training.

And it's like, the whole, the people eating, the whole eggs had increased his. I guess it was slight in muscle mass. Was it strength? Strength also, right? Yeah, but you would anticipate it to be slight. Like how much of a benefit would a couple of egg yolks a day plausibly give it a healthy person? It shouldn't be much.

Had those data come back and it was more than that, I would have been like, I don't know about that. Yeah, well, it's a little interesting because you always think about, well, leucine is the major signal for, you know, protein synthesis, muscle protein synthesis. And you would think, well, if it's the leucine and the egg white powder, it should be why, why is there? Why is your difference, right? I mean.

Well, again, this is what like, that's actually funny because when the reviewers came back, it was like, I knew it was going to happen. Everybody knew. And it was that, right? You're just like, okay, how? We're like, well, I don't know.

We don't have this. And so you just start making, again, as you mentioned, coline, and you start making like, well, plausible this. And then you make plausibly that and then plausibly that. And like you're trying to run these connections.

Well, there's also some omega-3s in eggs. And you might think, well, the cell membranes, now maybe the transporters are getting more loosening in. Who knows? Totally. Who knows, right? Yeah. But I personally, you know, I don't like protein powders, to be honest, and it's a processed food. I mean, you look at protein powders, and it's like never just protein.

Never. And so I have every reason to be motivated to eat my turkey burger, my homemade turkey burger. Yeah. You know, versus the protein powder. But I get it. I get like, I have these, like, pre-made, homemade turkey burgers, you know, they're food prepped. and they're there ready to just microwave. I'm not scared of microwave.

So easy for me to do. But there's a lot of people that it's like, they're not going to cook something. If they don't meal prep, then it's the go-to, right? You're going, I don't like protein bars. Same thing where it's like, it's processed. It's all the stuff.

So I kind of liked the little extra motivation to say, yeah, go for the whole foods. Go for the whole foods. I have had a love. love-hate relationship with those things as well. Spent many decades, like smashing many scoops of protein powder a day and then probably went a decade or more with like almost no protein powder. Now I'm back on it a little bit more for other reasons.

Like they're getting better with some of those things. But if you're asking me what I'd rather do, have a candy bar or have like a piece of whole food, I'm always going to take the whole food for preference, just flavor preferences. Like I like eating food more than I like supplements. So we talked a lot about macronutrients. I think there was, you know, I didn't know if there was going back to the fat just before we move on to the micronutrients. Is there really an optimal fat ratio or timing?

I mean, or is it mostly come down to if they perform better, if they, if that's what they want? Or do you think that it's something that's just not as important as carbohydrates? Well, I'll answer the two ways. I'll be short. I actually think it's an interesting question. I don't think people have spent a lot of time studying. I'm open to the possibility that there is way more important

in different timing scenarios than we think, but people just at the time have not done that work. So that's an open-ended question that's never been there. The other way I'll say it is, because of that, I guess, yeah, like I just don't feel like at this point we have any compelling reason to think that it is a critical thing to pay attention to in terms of timing and stuff relative. If you just think about plausibly,

what these different fueling sources are intending to do. It makes sense that fat is probably the thing you should be third concerned about. You have backup stores of it already. It can be mobilized when you ingest it or you're using your nidogynous fat. It still happens at roughly the same rate. So on and so forth. So with all that, I think that's our answer. But I'm open.

I'm open to other things. What about, so you mentioned earlier, you know, that you're most, concerned if people aren't getting enough fat. And so I'd love for you to explain to people why that is. But also, I'm interested in your thoughts about the quality of fat. Are some fats better than others? Do some fats hinder performance? Yeah, this is actually a whole category of questions that are super interesting. We grew up in the same nutritional generation, low fat, low fat, low fat, And then we saw those consequences. Okay, if you are really low fat for a long time,

there are a cataclysm of problems that can happen with that, especially if you're combining that on top of hypoclorism, right? Endocrine disruptions, sleep disruptions, probably long-term health disruptions in many areas. It's going to be a huge issue. What does low mean? I don't think we have a great definitive number on that, but if it's less than 10% of your calories,

again, combined with hypochloric for a long period of time, then you're probably running into all kinds of issues from cell membrane. You don't have the basic building blocks to keep cells together to the other ones, endocrine health, organ health, a ton transporter health, storage health. Like it has so many roles in our body. So you don't want, you want to stay away from those things.

Now, past that, in terms of fat quality, boy, how inflamed, your audience is probably a little bit better, but how mad do you want the internet to get mad at these following statements, right? The truth is all that matters to me. Yeah, I know it matters to you. You've been clear in your career of how you approach things,

but there's just not a lot of compelling evidence that whole fat in itself can be disregarded, as always healthy or always bad. So animal fat, vegetables. vegetable fats, seed oils, right? We'll throw it out there. Hmm. When managed under all appropriate situations, we're okay here.

Like, we're really just okay. You're fine. We're going to handle these things. But you go exaggerating any one of those areas. You're going to run into problems, right? So if you're eating copious amounts of saturated fat and combining that with low physical activity, hyperchlorism, you're going to have problems.

same thing with seed oils right you cook them you process them you do all those things you combine you're going to run under problems there too so what does a quality fat mean i always default back to the same thing i don't want to eat anything that's processed i don't care animal plant you pick it i'm trying to eat whole food versions of everything and that is true for my carbohydrates my proteins and my fat so we don't approach the fats that differently um so i don't deal with it that much because Rarely are we going out of our way to give people processed foods, processed fats included. So when we're eating, for most of our people, they eat animal, animal sources, right? So we're going to be getting fats from animals in a reasonable amount.

We're paying attention to those other factors, vegetables, protein, whole foods. So because of that, animal fat, this doesn't come in huge quantities. We don't have the physical space. It comes in a normal amount, and we're okay. at the same time we're not having to be so guarded against seed oils because we're not consuming most foods that come with seed oils we don't have to worry about that right it's the company it's the company right like it's like these things are not critically you know some people get so like fired up about it and what about olive oil right avocado oil yeahacados nuts i mean we'll make a three

fatty acids fish like those are all if it's oh if it's in a whole food we're going to like we have no issue with it right you have to be little bit careful with exogenous oils just because of as you're aware like chloric intake just gets really really high there but do we have our people eat nuts yeah avocados yes like all the above whole foods are almost always going to be on our list you just be careful with additives you put something into an oil and low quality in the sunlight it you know fill in the blank there same thing with nuts right those can come in low quality as well so we always try to get those things in the appropriate standards, and then we don't have any issues past that.

So I don't know how much we've successfully dodged or didn't dodge any landmines on that one, but man, I just don't have a lot of aptitude for the conversation. I mean, we'd have to spend hours talking about it because there's just so much nuance. That would be a whole other, whole other episode. Thank you for saying that, so I didn't have to say it. That's one kind way to put it. But my goodness, people. Yeah, there's a lot of emotions involved in nutrition, for sure.

That was a great way to put it. There's a lot of emotions involved. So micronutrients, this is an area that, as you know, I'm very passionate about, and I think it's a good segue into some supplements that I'm interested in talking about. But, you know, exercise does increase requirements for several micronutrients. How do you approach that so that people are more intentional about their diet and trying to get some of those, maybe talk about some of those micronutrients and then how. So micronutrients, vitamins, minerals, phytoc chemicals. if you're doing your job with nutrition, those things are mostly taken care of.

If you're eating the variety of the foods, the type of foods that we've been talking about, the big basic stuff, you're in a really good spot. Now, do we need to go on top of those things and supplement, particular vitamins, minerals, nutrients? Context-dependent here. Magnesium is the one that jumps off,

of course, as the one where if our food quality sources were, I don't want to say how they used to be, or what we would like them to be, and we had adequate amounts of those in our food, then we would literally just not have to worry about supplements at all, but that's not always the case. So because of that, you can look,

and you'll see all kinds of numbers about things like magnesium deficiencies, whether that's clinical deficient, subclinical, or just suboptimal. I don't know, some papers, 40% of people, some people 60%. Like, those numbers can get really, really high. When you look at athletes, because of caloric expenditure and because of, sweat and because of how much tissue breakdown that's happening through a many like then the needs are even higher with them so i would say magnesium as a supplement comes in probably 90% of the people we

work with it's really really really common for us to add magnesium as a supplement we try to add higher magnesium bioavailable foods more that is our starting place but we're probably going to add supplements on top of that in addition because you just it's just hard to get there you got to be careful with this a little bit though because if you were to look at your magnesium levels in like a classic blood draw that's a terrible place to look the magnesium that comes on your blood work that you get is not an indicative of all of what's actually happening in your body the vast majority of it's going to be stored in bone anyways

and it's super transient and now there's there's good information you can get there and there's other ways you can look at it markers of it but i always like to flag that because people get really freaked out they're going for blood work for whatever reason, they see that, and they're like, oh, I'm super high. I don't need it. Like, no, like, that's not a good way to interpret your overall magnesium status. We can talk more about that, but in general, because of those things, we end up adding magnesium is one of our top line micronutriens to pay attention to. So I'll go on for more, but I'll stop on magnesium if you want to talk more about that. Yeah, no, it's, it's, I know your fan. Yeah, for sure. I'm glad you mentioned the plasma levels magnesium,

which is mostly what's being measured in a standard test, I guess. You would get from like a routine physical or something like that. Yeah, you pull it out from your bones. And really, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's you're reading and what, you know, what's being defined as magnesium insufficiency. Most of the time, it's looking at what the RDA is. So for women, it's about 320 milligrams per day. For men, about 420 milligrams per day. And so people aren't meeting that requirement. So they're considered to be getting insufficient magnesium. And so you're talking about half the country, basically. So you've got a one and two chance of whatever athlete that walks into your door, there might be not getting enough, right? So it's kind of, I would say that it's good insurance.

But then, as you mentioned, these athletes are sweating magnesium. They're breaking down tissue. They're, you know, urinating more. I mean, there's lots of, like, it's coming out. It's coming out. And so they can require up to 10 to 20 percent more than the RDA. And so if they're not even meeting that RDA, it makes sense to supplement. Now, I've heard you talk about different magnesium supplements like magnesium citrate,

being one that is often preferred for recovery. Magnesium source is different. Back when we were kids, you had to be really on top of this because of ineffective forms of magnesium and because of GI distress. Most supplement companies have cleaned that up. So now you can look at bisglycinate is a really common one.

That is fine. Citrate's fine. Obviously 3 and 8s become more popular now. Any of those are generally okay. or it's the old forms, the oxidates, the different ones like that that you, like, really had to be careful of. But you're generally okay there. They've also, in large part, dose these things so that GI distress is not huge anymore. So this is actually something we would pay a lot of attention to way back in the day.

But for the most part, you're okay. As long as your dosage is reasonable. If it is giving you problems, then you can go down a little bit or you can try a different form. But we haven't seen that huge differences between various forms. they're all basically getting to the same spot. So, like, most of our people coming in, the closest accuracy you can look at is, like, it's not uncommon for us to see people below 250

in terms of their intake. So, like you said, 3, 20, 400, like... And that's not an athlete. That's the standard person. Athletes can be... For sure. For sure. Yeah.

So we actually generally found our non-athletes, our normal people population is generally higher with magnesium intake. Our athletes tend to be lower. That's a little bit of, well, that's a lot of selection bias. Someone's coming into work with me. They're probably pretty health conscious. They're eating more meat, less greens.

The athletes are not, like, always health conscious. So it's a little selection bias. Yeah, but really common. I'm like, so much so to be candid, I barely look at it anymore because I'm like, I just know. I assume you're going to be low until you prove otherwise. But yeah, the forms of it, yeah. What kind of dose do you typically? And have you noticed?

it affect performance or do you already are they already supplementing with it it's not really no most aren't actually surprising enough most are not taking with it standard dose dues if you look at the big high quality brands 150 200 something like that in that range right that's going to usually take a scoop a scoop and a half if it's a powder three pills caps if it's capsule like something like that so those would be sort of our starter dosages we have gone double that plenty of times Again, context, we deal with many 300 plus pound people. So when we're doubling it, I'm not doubling it for the 100 and, you know, something, nothing pound individual.

So we can get high there. The only real drawback in general, as you know, when you start tinkering with vitamins, you have a range of like, okay, not a big deal to like really big deal. Phytochemicals, antioxidants, same there. Minerals are different. You've got to be careful with rocks, right? Magnesium, though, is pretty inert. it's okay. You start tinkering with iron, you got to really be paying attention. You start tinkering with other rocks. You've got to really understand. But magnesium seems to be like pretty okay. Like the worst thing we're going to deal with this GI distress. And as I talked about like, most people are okay now, it's not a big deal. So I'm not super concerned with going a little bit aggressive with magnesium because of that. Because we also are asking so much of them in other areas of performance or movement. It's one I'm saying like don't worry a ton about the dosage on that one.

If you're a little bit high, you want to go a little more aggressive. I'm fine at that. We will see some people respond very well in terms of physical recovery. Totally subjective. They feel like their legs are not a sore anymore or they're not getting as much. I don't know if that's actually happening. Totally honestly, I don't know. We will see pretty pronounced improvements in a bunch of sleep metrics, though.

That seems to be, and that's all very objective. Like our sleep technology is, incredibly advanced that we use. It's not just a consumer wearable. And so we have a ton of metrics we can look at there. And that one seems to be a really clear jumping off point. And it doesn't seem to matter which form we use. That was my next question. Yeah. Doesn't seem. Not surprised. No, I mean, there's been actually probably two or three papers in the last six months on three and eight specifically. We're finally starting to get human trials. Need more work. But we haven't noticed a big difference between forms. Most people are on three and eight right now, but not a big deal for us.

What about, so omega-3s, and I do want to talk about, we're going to get into recovery and supplements for performance as well, but omega-3 is another one. I mean, I personally, as you probably know, think that most people are not getting enough omega-3. In fact, if you look at data on the omega-3 index, people are mostly not. They're in the low range, and there's a lot of longevity reasons. you know, cardiovascular health inflammation, why getting up to a higher omega-3 index would be ideal. And most people, there's been studies showing that taking around 1.5 to 2 grams a day will get you there from a 4% omega-3 index, which is low to an 8% omega-3 index is high. And how do you approach omega-3s from performance perspective?

Have you seen the data on omega-index and professional athletes? No. I think, don't quote me here, but you'll make the point. that the NBA data was like 50% or below five it's start below five yeah it's just like it's very low stunningly low right nobody's at 15 like it's just like you just don't get it right the numbers might even be higher it's it's outrageous so yeah we magnesium is a pretty big staple and unless we have strong contraindication pretty much everyone's going to be getting omega-3 as well I know again another like we'll throw it

out there. Yes, I saw the AFIB paper. Everybody is aware of the omega-3 and heart palpitations. Great. If you are a cardiologist, you can treat that however you'd like. If you're concerned about it, work with your cardiologist, do whatever you want. But outside of that, there is so much other information, so much benefits, so many rationale reasons for omega-3s, that we use it very consistently. We always start food first. blah, blah, all the things. But because of that, a moderate to low dose of omega-3, pretty safe place to go. Yeah, on the A-Fib thing, there's, you know, it seems to be at a four-gram, super-high-dose range, four grams, ethelester form.

Yeah. And also, the recent paper that came out, it was a correlation paper, it wasn't a randomized control trial. Bill Harris has published a response to that. It was a, like, terrible statistics and all this stuff done. So anyways, I did you see the absolute effect, by the way? Yeah, it was extremely low. Like nothing. It's ridiculous.

Yeah. Nothing. It's not. So I think it was just creating a lot of anxiety. You know, no. Now, of course there's people that maybe have a family history or prone. Sure. Maybe shouldn't be taking five grams of ethelester, you know, high Vesipa or whatever a day.

But, um. Man, I got torched for that recently. Really? Yeah. I talked about somewhere. People flew off the handle. I'm like, my God. Like, you have to pay attention past line, the top line.

You do. Look at the absolute effect. Again, it's like one of those things where you're going to have to spend a little bit of time talking about all the nuance to like really convey everything. You can't just do a little like, you know, sound bite. It's just not people are going to have their emotional response and that's that. There's also like just, look, humans are weird. You can't pick a exercise, a supplement, a nutrition thing that we've ever done where somebody of the seven billion of us won't throw their hand up and go, oh, I did that and I had this crazy negative response. Right.

Like, yeah. Yes. Like, totally happens. And I believe you. I trust you. I can't explain it. Right. Physiology is wild. There's nuance here. People respond differently. Not to mention that maybe it was something else. I mean, like, you never really know. But have you, so I had a young professor on the podcast, Chris McClory. And he's been doing some pretty pioneering and interesting work. He trained with a couple of the big guys. Stu Phillips is one. He trained with. But he does work on high-dose omega-3 and disuse atrophy. And he's done a couple of randomized controlled trials showing it has to be preloading because it's completely independent of the inflammatory effects, anti-inflammatory effects of omega-3s, right? Where it seems to be you have to like get these people on omega-3 for at least a month, right? They're doing like four or five weeks before the trial starts. So they have to be loaded up.

That's how long it takes to accumulate in cell membranes. And it's accumulating in their cell membranes and their muscle. And people then have a disuse event. So he'll put a cast or whatever on them. And it cuts disuse atrophy like in half. And he's like, you know, trying to figure out what's going on. But it appears to be sensitizing muscle to amino acids. So it's almost like what exercise is doing.

Yeah, yeah. So which is, of course, when you're having a discus, event, you're not exercising. And so, but anyways, it's something interesting I kind of wanted to throw out there and get on your radar because it's kind of in your world. Yeah, look, you'll see a cornucopia of things like this. When you take people, I would assume, I don't know his population database in that trial, but I would assume it's fairly inactive, unhealthy people.

Women, young women. Okay. The only reason I'm saying that is you just seems to see these type of crazy things happen. when you go from like somewhat suboptimal to poor health and you just get them back to baseline, wild stuff just starts happening like this. I have no idea. We could probably get a whiteboard out and start tossing up mechanisms to figure out like what's plausibly happening there. But you could infer just, okay, a healthier cell membrane probably then can do a bunch of things that it was trying to do, but what wasn't healthy enough to do, however we want to determine healthy. And now it can.

Could it be a reactionary response? Could it be all these things? things. Yeah, awesome. That is quite different than going from already pretty healthy there. So I would imagine that case if you take people who are already pretty healthy into the same thing, you wouldn't see as much of a response. But that goes to the point of saying, okay, now given the fact we know most people are not already pretty healthy. These were healthy women. I think, I think that generally speaking healthy, so we're looking at the effects of omega-3, they weren't high, they didn't have high levels of omega-3. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So the idea is, You take someone that's already eating fish, they're supplementing with omega-3, they're exercising, whatever.

And so you put them in the disuse event, you know, where they're not moving a limb for four weeks or whatever. And healthy or not, they're going to lose muscle mass. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's kind of interesting that... Super interesting. That you take something like omega-3s, which are known to affect transporters, receptors, anything embedded in the cell membrane and makes it better, it means makes it functional. So when you have a deficiency of it, like they're not...

optimal. So it's kind of, it's kind of interesting because it kind of, for me it has, it's not just important for like elderly people and perhaps a surgery or an event, a disuse event you can plan for. But I think just injury, like in general, like having, having, you know, these omega-3s in our cell membranes built up to that level already would be important. But also, what about recovery? Have you looked at omega-3s in recovery at all? Not in my lab ever. Yeah, I don't think, I don't think I've spent a ton of time outside of the obnoxious, again, going from deficient, super low, just back to a standard number, going from good to high. No, I don't, I don't think I have anything super interesting to say on that stuff. Well, to be determined some other time. I do want to get into some of these performance enhancers, and this is kind of, you know, it's an area that I'm interested in myself. I, as we were chatting earlier,

off camera. I had recently had Darren Kando on the podcast and he's done a lot of research in the creatine world. And so I'm kind of curious. I take creatine now. But I wanted to ask you about, you know, the top sort of performance enhancing supplements and then we can kind of get into some of those. Just kind of what your thoughts. I'm sure creatine is at the top of the list. Yeah, of course, right? Like how's not going to be on the top of everyone's one? the way that we would think about supplements in general is number one remove reduce try to eliminate any any physiological insufficiency whether that is coming because of caloric restriction so we have dealt with a lot of

people whether this is again as our athletes or non-athletes where caloric restriction is a thing and I'm saying that because that's why supplements tend to be helpful I would prefer you to get all your stuff from food but when food is limited for a bunch of different reasons. Now we can use supplements to backfill vitamins, nutrients, minerals, and a much other stuff. That is our top line performance enhancement. When your physiology is in a healthier spot, it will perform better. So we can get into beta alanine and other things for sure. But that's really important for me to state because that is where we have actually seen by far the most enhancements in performance and recovery and sleep and cognitive function, you name it. It's by just making sure

we call them performance anchors. You don't have any anchor behind you. Nothing's just like dragging your physiology down, we get that thing solved, get it up back to normal, and then for the most part, I want to step away. Like, I want to let your physiology just run how it wants to run. But if we have big holes, we plug them first. Whether you want to pick your metric is, again, recovery, muscle growth, testosterone levels, like, pick your thing that's going to get your brain most excited. That's where we see the most impact, like by a landslide. If your house is cleaned up there, now we can get into creteen. beta alanines.

You can get into fatigue blockers. You can get into stimulants. You can do it in a whole bunch of things like that. Adaptogens. There's a whole host of things we can cover there. But that part of the equation is where you will most, all of you will most likely see your biggest benefits. Right.

So pretty much the things we've been talking about, you want to make sure you're optimizing your diet, making sure you're getting your micronutrients or magnesium, vitamin D, I'm sure. Yeah, we do this actually quite differently. We spend a lot of time. on a bunch of biomarkers. So we take a ton of blood, a ton of urine, stool, and saliva,

and we get really precise with vitamin, mineral, nutrient recommendations. It's hard to get into that on the podcast without exact examples. But that's where we get. So, yeah, we can start off with general recommendations. But being precise to physiology,

we're able to paint pretty good molecular portraits of people and figure out what's happening with them over time and then get really specific with recommendations. past that then is when we get in like our direct performance enhancement. So like that's how we handle that equation. Yeah, some people are really into to measuring and trying to to, you know,

quantify their deficiencies and their sufficiencies and see what's best, but not everyone, just not everyone's going to do that. Right. So some people, you kind of put them in that, in that bucket of, okay, yep, 50% of the country's not getting enough magnesium. Most people are not getting, you know, omega-3s and the vitamin D again, you know, more than half the country's not getting enough because we're spending all over time indoors. And so you kind of, you kind of go for the biggest ones that you're like, probably going to help, right? Yep. It's always better to measure things, though, right? Especially with like things like vitamin D,

where you can measure it. It's a simple test and most doctors will do it. Yep. And like, vitamin D is a good example of it. It's also one where I feel pretty good with you just taking vitamin D without a test. I ain't tripping if you're just like, hey, I want to take might be like, all right, I'm probably cool. Like, what's the worst that's going to happen? Not much. Very limited downside. Strong likelihood you're low.

Even if you're not low, very little harm here. So there's most of the things we've talked about. You don't need any test at all to go do. Some things I'm going to say, hey, like we want to see actual markers on this before we start tinkering with that. We said like minerals in particular,

be really careful of. You have big downsides in them. But yes, most people, the big stuff, to put you in a better spot and that's what the pay attention to so the minerals that are sort of not as risky would be the magnesium now iron you said iron something that probably more focused on with male sorry females that are menstruating right yeah premenopausal females yep a lot of them can become low iron and and reds like reds a really common thing to pay attention to um so this is a

concern you have with relative energy deficiency right so if you're not only combining being female as well as a lot of caloric expenditure and calories are moderate to low, then we have all kinds of problems we have to pay attention to there. So there's just a whole bunch of other factors that go into that. Iron gets really complicated, really fast, so maybe we can come back to that one on a different day. But don't you also, like, as an athlete, you kind of like you're losing your, you know, tear down, like red blood cells are being torn down, and so you're probably losing even more iron. Okay, so there is a thing that we will talk about for many decades now called Heelstrike Kamalysis.

This is exactly what it sounds like. If you run a lot and your feet smash the ground, when your blood is going past the bottom of your foot, this normal blood moving through your body, and that blood is between your foot and the ground and then you smash it, you will smash your red blood cells. We see this in our combat athletes, right? So you have physical things hitting your body. you will physically smash those red blood cells. You will smash that iron.

And so, yeah, it's not just menstruation. It's not just breaking down of tissue. You will actually physically smash your own red blood cells. So it is a huge concern for not just females, but young, old. It's a whole thing. Iron is big. It's also insanely related to sleep quality. So you will see numbers go all over the board when you are having splinter contractions

that night because you're having mild sleep apnea or other disturbances. So the numbers that you're paying attention to there, they really throw people for a loop when their blood work. So you've got to be really careful and paying attention to that. And as I said, that's not an innocuous supplement. You can't just smash it and just be like, oh, I'll just take some more. Not a good idea at all.

So you definitely want to measure your iron, your ferrette, like what are the main things that are you like? A bunch ones. Yeah, I would say that there's probably at least seven markers that we would pay attention to before we're really, truly understanding what's happening with your overall iron status. everything from hematocrit to hemoglobin, ferritin, of course. But then you have even like red blood cell magnesium concentrations.

Probably closer to 10, actually, I would pay attention to. I mean corpuscular volume. There's a bunch of different things that we would look at. So yeah, we'll come back to that one just because I'm stopping myself from going. It's going to be a 40-minute part right now. Okay. Because it's good. The reason why I don't want to do right now is you can't get your toes deep in this.

without just making more confusion than not. Yeah, got it. It's one of, okay. Well, you mentioned stimulants, cognitive enhancers, and that's something I'm interested in, starting with, of course, caffeine. Sure. And that's probably one of the most widely used stimulants globally.

And I'm sort of, there's, I've come across a few studies where caffeine, if used before exercise, seem to enhance fat burning, like pretty significant, you know. And now this is not, someone that's already an athlete in doing long amounts of endurance exercise.

size, it's not going to make a difference. But someone like myself, I'm running like a 30-minute run or I'm doing a 20-minute hit. I don't know. This might make a little bit more of a meaningful difference to me. I would be skeptical on that one. Caffeine works. No question about it. It works as an ergogenic benefit. You will perform oftentimes better. Boom. That's it. So there you go, right? If you burn more calories, train harder, went faster. Yeah. Now, will it have a lipolitic effect? Yeah. You take it right now?

You will see free fatty acids go up in your blood. That will happen. You don't do anything with it. They'll be restored and placed right back in their position. So if you look at the research on even fat burners, you're not going to really significantly aid in fat loss, right? Stimulants, caffeine, combinations of them, they are in acute effect.

If they are used then to train better, more frequently, more motivation, work harder. great. Sometimes they have an appetite suppressant effect as well, but that's how they're getting to any substantive fat loss rather than the actual mechanism itself. Absolutely. Yeah. So it's essentially just you're working harder kind of like with creatine, right? You're more, more volume training, performing better. And so whatever the reason, motivation, what about the dose of the caffeine? Does that? Yeah. I mean, typical doses you're going to look at something like most is 150, to 400 milligrams, ish on those things.

We, way back in the day, people were tinkering with like 10 grams per kilogram, milligrams per kilogram. So you're getting really high dosages and you're like, you're in these trials and you're just sitting there and you're like, your head is going to explode. Like these numbers are outrageous.

Four to five is like more of a standard one now, which is going to equate to that, you know, like two, three hundred, four total milligrams depending on your body size. You start crossing past like 500, like 500 milligrams of caffeine and like you might have an existential event like you're going to be like what is happening and I just remember sitting there with other students and stuff just being like I just want this to be over with you just do not feel good at those high dosages at all yeah so the downsides

would be at a higher dose or I guess depending depending on the person some people are pretty sensitive but how can someone know if it's actually affecting their performance like I mean okay so that's actually there's there's a lot of conflicting research as well on on adaptation. So there used to be this idea that you want to desensitize yourself to caffeine. So even if you're a normal habitual caffeine user, let's just say an average dose of caffeine and say a coffee or espresso is 200 milligrams, right? Like whatever tea is less and you get the idea. So if say you do two of those a day and you're like a three to 400 milligram per day user, you would come off of it entirely for a day or five days or something like that. And then you

would reintroduce it and you would have this like super response you will feel that but the question was is that actually then doing anything for performance people would do this in like the power lifting weight lifting worlds and even in the endurance worlds for a long time but there's more recent data that suggests it probably doesn't matter there doesn't seem to be a correlation well it doesn't seem to be a hundred percent crossover between your perception your personal stimulation of it and the performance benefits those seem to be disentangled quite a bit. bit. So even if you're normally at 400 milligrams a day and then you take your normal 400 milligram dose and you don't feel anything different, you might still have those performance

benefits. You don't have to feel like you're, you know, like super stimulated to get that thing. So those data have changed over the years, right? It's gone back and forth. It's like, it has to be novel or now it looks like doesn't really matter that much. So that game of like, do you run a resensitize or desensitize yourself? I leave it up to people, whatever you want to do. generally we don't worry about it but it seems to be the performance benefit of this so how would you know if your performance is getting better we just have to have some objective marker of performance like are you lifting are you running like what are you doing are you are you either going more um well back the two ways we would typically do this in the lab is like a time trial

right or a maximum performance like so you can play the game so you can say we're going to lock this in at 30 minutes and say how much work can you get done in 30 minutes oh you got more work done this time than you did without the caffeine. Or the opposite, we're going to run a 5K and does your time get better? Like those are the kind of like the two ways to pay attention to it. And you'll generally see benefit in both of those scenarios. What about, what about music as a performance enhancer? Yep, you'll see that. Like pretty consistently. You'll see that actually, even with muscle growth. So intentional playing of music generally will give you a small benefit in muscle growth. mechanism there being obvious

like probably are happier you're probably training more right training harder the type of music doesn't seem to matter that much seems to be pretty independent what do you ever you want

like you want death metal cool you want to play jazz cool really it doesn't seem to matter that much it doesn't have to be the only thing you'll kind of see here

is tempo generally higher tempo better like you don't want to be down slow I don't know like what those beats would be actually but anyways,

pastor higher tempo stuff would generally be what you're looking at. We actually ran a study in my lab years ago where we had professional drummers come in. This is totally unrelated. But we ran a bunch of metabolic equivalence like we put them on a metabolic cart and looked at V-O-2 max during drumming

of a bunch of different like songs and things like that and looked at the caloric expenditure. But yeah, nonetheless, you're a music, pretty good idea for most people. So I've heard you talk a little bit about you and Andrew Huberman and talk about rodeola, rosea.

Yeah. And I've been sort of interested in this as a fatigue, reducer, cognitive enhancer. I'm kind of interested. How does it work? How does it compared to caffeine, you know, dose, all those things? Yeah, rodeola's been around for a long time. I've probably been using it, I don't know,

at least a decade or more. It was always hard to get and you were like scared of where you're going to get it from kind of thing. You don't really know. Now we have enough data on it. There's quality providers. NSF certified places and such. More research is coming out muscle endurance

in terms of how many repetitions can you do of a, you know, 30 reps versus 35 reps, like that kind of muscular endurance. And then we're seeing benefits. Otherwise, Andrew talks a lot about, like, he feels cognitive stuff from it.

I don't really personally there, but to each their own. How is it working? Nobody knows. We don't really have, outside of like stuff in yeast and I think there's some fruit fly data. There's not a lot of mechanism here.

I could guess. I could spout out. Is it an adaptogen? What is it? Is it a polyphenol? What is it? Both, right? So you have both of those effects.

But the only little bit of mechanism data is maybe cortisol, right? Maybe something HPA access, maybe dopamine, maybe serotonin, like something's happening here. What you will generally see is if you look at markers like heart rate variability, what will often happen with rodeola is, you know, is the same dose of high-intensity exercise when you use rodeola will not drive HRV as much. That's why we say it's like an adaptogen. That's why it mitigates the stress response. I have not seen any evidence that rodeola would do something like improve baseline

resting HRV over time. So it's not like a recovery agent, but it seems to make harder, higher intensity exposure things, not as damaging. If that, without compromising performance. Right. Okay. So it's not, it's not compromising adaptations. Correct. In fact, some data like I've indicated that, but most of the research suggests actual performance enhancements from it. We're just now, with the cortisol and stuff, we're speculating because at some point, if you actually block cortisol response, then you actually inhibit stimuli, right? Which you don't want. So our hands are up in the air. Like, I haven't seen anybody really do a lot of human trials in figuring out definitive mechanisms. It's hard to get funding for these sort of things. That, too. But yeah. What dose do you need to get the performance enhancement?

Is it like dependent on your body weight? Always, right? But most products are going to be something like, I think 150 or so is like a reasonable starting point. I haven't really seen, like we've tinkered with really high ones. There's some some people I think have done like 800 milligrams, like way up there. All at once? Like one dose. Yeah, yeah.

I'm not going to lie to you and say we haven't tried that too. Does it make, does it have a caffeine effect or is it like totally different? No, no, no. So you don't feel like weird. Yeah, no, great question. It's not a, yeah, not a stimulant like that. We actually haven't seen any like changes in sleep or anything like that. I would always take it in the morning personally if I'm going to use it at all.

And we generally recommend in the morning just in case. But no, not a stimulant in that sake at all. It's generally, again, the way to think about it is you take it, if I already put you in a placebo controlled right now and gave it to you, you wouldn't know. I don't think you would feel like if I gave you beta alanine if I gave you caffeine or you'd be like,

well, you know there. But we could blind you to Rotolillo almost early and you wouldn't know it. And what about in terms of like you say taking in the morning just to be safe, but like if you're wanting a performance enhancement.

You can take it a night. No problem. So it's like something that's in your system for a certain amount of time. It doesn't have to be like right before you work out. Yeah, we will use it chronically.

Okay. Yeah, but again, we're speculating here because we don't know. where we have a mechanism, we understand at least roughly how a beta-alinin or sodium bicarbonate are working or caffeine. I don't actually know. So I should back up. I don't know the answer to your question. We are not super worried about it that you have it right before you work out. But I guess it's plausible that we should. But we're not, yeah. Today we don't. Well, 150 milligrams. I guess I'm

to try that out and see, I kind of want a little performance enhancement in my, especially in my strength training, my crossfit stuff. Yeah, I think that is a pretty good place where you would likely to see some benefit there. That would be a good place to try. Okay. You mentioned the beta aline, I want to get to that in a minute, but before, because we're kind of talking about performance enhancement, there's this whole category of these blood flow enhancers. Oh, yeah. Boy, yeah. And there's like, so the beetroot juice, beetroot extract, and then there's the citriline arginine. So I'd heard of the beetroot juice and, you know, these nitric oxide boosters, but the citrillion and arginine are something that I haven't really, I mean, arginine I know about for blood pressure,

but not for this performance enhancement. And so I'm wondering endurance type of exercise or high rep type of exercise. I mean, is this something that actually can make a difference? in someone that's already well trained? Is it like not well trained people? How much? Yeah. Talk about what it's doing.

Sure. There's actually a lot of research, right? Andy Jones has done so much stuff here. He's done a ton of work on it. And there's a lot. Like you're talking about a solid decade and more in lots of populations, lots of different stuff.

So it is really well studied. It's funny you bring it up because it gets no love. Like people don't talk about it that much despite it's not a small amount of research here. want to especially stack up like rodeola to be like you have a mountain to go on with beetroot juice and you have a pebble like on rodeola we like it we use it a lot we use i've used a ton of different forms over the years it's great because it is not a stimulant so you can take it in the evenings and it doesn't compromise sleep at all we will all use it a lot for our individuals

who are either exercising a night or training multiple times per day and their stimulants come in the morning, but they still have high fatigue and so they want to use it in the evening. So that is our common use case. You see it a lot in the endurance world, particularly the steady state endurance world. So cycling, swimming, running, things like that. You're talking about nitric oxide. This is a basal dilator. You're going to open up blood flow. You will feel it. If I were to put you in that blind test right now and I gave you any of those forms you mentioned, you will be like, whoa, something just happened. There's no blinding to those studies. But it sounds like if it's increasing blood flow, it should make you cognitively more sharp as well.

It will. Yeah. You'll, I don't like it. Now, we're talking beetroot juice or we're talking citrilling and argentine? You're going to have a same answer for basically all the above. There will be noticeable effects. There are differences between all three of those. If you were to take literally beetroot juice and concentrate it into like a three ounce shot, you could see the same stuff here. Most of the time with like citraline and arginine, though, you're getting really high concentrations. I don't know, typical dose of, of those off the top of my head, to be honest. But what you're going to normally see there

is a very pronounced stimulant effect. Like, it's not going to be caffeine, but you're going to be like, whoop, especially citling. Like, you're going to see that right now. You will see, if you go to the gym and you take any of those forms, particularly, like, the Argentines have fallen out of favor.

Like, they're not as popular anymore for a host of reasons. But even the beetroot stuff, like you will see a pump, a physical pump. Like, you will see. I was reading. about that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's not a, it's not fake at all. What's better, beetroot juice or beetroot extract? I mean, I typically go for the low sugar. Yep. Which would be the extract. Yep.

But does it matter? Um, hmm, does it matter? We use extract more. You could make a compelling argument, though, that juice is better. You could do that. So it kind of depends on multiple parts of that equation. We use the powder, though, for a bunch of different reasons. of them are practical. A lot of them are travel related, right? You don't want to take a whole bunch of juice with you in your airplane and you're flying all around at different places and you're just like, all right, I can take the powdered supplement. It lasts longer, shelf stable. If we're talking about like antioxidant polyphenol properties, but we know we're losing them in the powder. Like we're probably losing some of that relative to the juice. Okay.

But then we're going to backfill that with whole foods and other things there. So lots of research on both of those. I would say a lot of people would say would prefer juice. I would I think it's a fair thing to say, but I'm not fully against powders. Well, if you're going for the powder, what kind of dose can you, do you have to take it, how soon before exercise? Can you take it chronically? Is it going to stop working? Can I start taking it before my podcast?

I mean, like, how does this work? You can, if you put a scoop in there right now, you would, you would know that you did it. There's no question. So you can take it, you're talking about, I don't know, five minutes to take effect. Like, it happens fast, like really, like caffeine. Like you're going to have a pretty acute effect of it. And it will last, I think you can think of it like caffeine. It will last probably three hours-ish.

Some people are going to metabolize it faster. Some people are sorry. So it is not a short-lasting thing. It'll be there for quite some time. So if you're going to use it for performance benefits, whether it's in the podcast room or in the weight room or dealing with the assembly at your kid's school or whatever thing you've got to get through,

yeah, right before would be the time to go about it. We will sometimes use it hours before exercise when we have high fatigue, high motivation issues, right? So you start having these associations. Let's say, for example, we have somebody training at like 4 o'clock in the afternoon. And at 2 o'clock, this is when we start having problems with like, am I going to train today? Am I not or whatever? All right, let's give them a little hit right there. And we don't want to go to caffeine.

We don't want to go to other stimulus like that. So we'll simply use it as like an afternoon pick me up, if you will, for even on a non-exercising day. If we're trying, especially if we're trying to get caffeine out of somebody's equation or lower it in the afternoon. So we use it then as just simply like a, okay, motivation's back up. I'm feeling good again and I'm ready to go. You'll feel it. Can you use it with caffeine? In other words, like, okay.

So what are the downsides? I mean, it affects blood pressure presumably, right? I think I remember reading studies about that years ago and at least beetroot. This is nitric oxide, right? Right. So this is your primary health concern is going to be anything related to blood pressure. Right?

So you handle those equations. Our downside, GI. Like GI distress is going to 100% be there. With beetroot or with citroen? All the above, particularly the beetroot so, right? The juice, there. If you eat beets and you forget and then you go to the bathroom,

like, so that's the part of you're like, oh, like, you can freak, people can freak out and they forget that they took it or they don't know why. So you can have things like that. But as long as you're not GI issues, very minimal concerns outside of if you have again medical conditions that you got to pay attention. Do you have a preference to Citraline versus Beatroot? Beat root.

Why? Yeah, generally we're going to be there. The issues, issues is a strong word. The slight things we've had to consider with Citraline is power. Like, it's just too powerful for some people. they're just way like whoa like this is too much for me i don't like it i don't feel it so you can titrate those doses just down um the other again issues the wrong word issues too strong but the other like a little bit of like uh we've had is why can't i just get this out of close something closer to

whole food okay so if that is your preference then we can go back up a little bit to beat or beat root juice um but that's not a strong argument yeah what about just baking some beats would you get a similar effect or would it not be concentrated enough? Probably like 15 years ago. I had a friend, who you know, actually, you met before, who did this. And he would blend beats, like in a blender. In a smoothie or something? Like, you could call it a smoothie, but he would like juice it and blend it and he would do a combination. It was probably like eight to ten whole beats. He would consume pre-workout. And he did it about three times, I think, and two of the three times he just threw up everywhere. and then you just like red,

you can't. It's a dosage issue, though. Like, right? Will you get a small benefit? I can't, like, I've never personally felt like a blood flow benefit from eating a bunch of beats. Personally, some people say that they do,

but you wouldn't get the dosage. That's why they're juice, that's why they're concentrated. Now, you said arginine has fallen out of favor. Why is that? Okay, so, like, you're probably pretty aware of nitric oxide metabolism. You can't just consume nitric oxide. nitrite nitrate, like immediately like you're toast, right?

So then the argument is, oh, can we go back up the chain? Like, can we go up to arginine? Can we go back up the thing? So the first stop on that train was arginine. And then the issue you're going to fall out there, which is almost always the case with supplementation, was bioavailability. Like, how can we just get enough of it? And that one just seemed to fail,

it seemed to get better once we started going there. And then there's other concerns, cold sores and things like that that started popping up that people, were like not super stoked about and so citrille seems to be the better approach to that right now that's the short version okay got it yeah the arginine is used for viral replication and yet that was kind of an interesting i mean i've never tried but um i was reading a little bit about the cold sore thing yeah i guess if someone has herpes cold sores or whatever that might that might flare them up or something but yep i'm going to try the beetroot it's totally worth it i experimented with it like

10 years ago for blood pressure and I was giving it to my mom. But I just, I couldn't, at the time, I was, you know, more low carb and I couldn't find a quality source. I'm sure now it's probably there's like great sources of it. But yeah, so now I think I'm going to, I'm going to go back, circle back and try it, try it out again. I love how you experiment on your mom. That's great. I mean, I'm, you know.

Trying to do what you can do. Yeah, I'm judicial. I don't do all the crazy stuff. But I told you she's doing CrossFit now, which is like amazing. CrossFit for seniors. It's fantastic. I love it. It's definitely a tone down from what I'm doing.

Yeah, but you're getting jacked. I love it. Yeah, and confident too, for sure. And I'm also interested in all this stuff to, you know, I'm going to kind of play around a little bit. You mentioned the beta alanine. And I don't know if sodium bicarbonate's in there, but beta alineine I'm sort of interested in. I've never really heard of it until I heard you talk about it.

I didn't know anything about the fatigue buffers, what it's doing. So how does it work? Tell us a little bit about it. It's been around for a really long time. Really simple strategy with this one. So enzymes work in a certain pH range, right? If you come too acidic inside of a muscle,

we have a hard time running any metabolic process. aerobic, anaerobic strength, it doesn't really matter, right? Contracting muscle power. We start running into acidic environment, which you start running into problems. So enter then a whole cascade of supplements designed to buffer fatigue, which is a way to say, like, let's keep you within that acidic range. Now, you can do this by starting off more alkaline,

or you can just do this by putting intermediators in there that say, like, we're just going to keep you within that certain range so you don't get too high. A beta alineine was a great stop on that because we're looking at intracellular carnacine. That's what we're trying to do. right so he's like saying hey this is our limiting factor beta alan bean the amino acid limiting factor so if we can give you more of that you can build up more carnison then we can buffer more effectively and it works there's a good amount of research on it it worked for the things that you would anticipate it working for doesn't do much for maximal strength doesn't do much for speed or power doesn't do a lot for

long duration endurance though again you can see some positive benefits there where it mostly works are things of really high intensity, and by that I mean cardiovascular intensity. Right. So high intensity of strength training, again, it just said not super relevant because you're doing two reps. Acidic problem is not the problem there. So beta alenine is something that you would take chronically. You will feel an acute effect at certainly at somewhat of a higher dose, but you need three to five weeks for this to build up intracellularly before it makes a difference. And so much like caffeine, or creatine rather, unlike caffeine, this takes a while for you to dose it. So you can do a bunch of things to mitigate that, but you will see a pretty classic. CrossFit would be a great example.

Like you couldn't basically couldn't engineer a supplement better for acute or for CrossFit performance outside of beta aligning. And as I mentioned, it's been around a really, long time. It's just an amino acid. It's not a stimulant. It won't affect energy. You can take it right now. And again, you wouldn't notice. You wouldn't be like, oh, I'm fired up and ready to go. You wouldn't feel anything different. But you would just feel the burn is not as bad as your training. What would be the optimal dose? Man, I'm blanking on doses right now, to be honest with you. Okay. So we can look that up. But I did read that there's some kind of tingling effect. Oh, yeah.

Can you mitigate that by? Yeah. Back in the day, we would say like this is an hyacine dump. But that doesn't seem to be the case. There's actually a couple of papers that came out. It seems to be something to do a sensory input. So there are some sort of sensory receptors that are being clicked on and tingled and it kind of feels like a fire.

It feels like you're itching. Feels like you rolled around in grass a bunch. Don't tell anybody this. We would give people beta alienate a bunch like our friends as a joke. And they're like not paying attention. So you like put some like we were younger. So you're like sitting there doing work, whatever. And all of a sudden you just like start itching everywhere.

You're like, what the. We would do this a bunch. I did this to my wife one time actually. And she was like, what is going on? She's like something. Yeah. But that's like a higher dose, right? Not even like a moderate dose you'll feel that out.

Really? Yeah, yeah. Can you just can you? It'll desensitize super fast. Oh. So it's really like not something you're going to continue feeling once you. You can also just back dosage down. Like you just go down a tiny bit and you just go down a tiny bit.

and you'll find that level of like, okay, I feel fine. And as soon as you start training, it typically goes away. So 30, 45 minutes before or so, you take it. You'll start feeling those like itchy, kind of crawly feels a little bit.

Generally as soon as you start training, it goes away. If that's still bothering it, just lower the dosage. What we'll do a lot of the times because it's not an acute stimulant is we'll just split the dosage up throughout the day,

half the morning, half a night, couple grams in a night. Like that is a general place that will go. So like if the four grams is like killing you or you don't like it or three is better, then again, split them up throughout the day and they won't have any effect.

So we will do that. You will develop a little bit of a tolerance to that though. So this is one of the cases where we actually want to build that dose over time. So when we get within like eight weeks of competition, we will start strategically increasing that dosage to get that as high as we possibly can. Where other things we don't have to worry about dosage going up. Is it like a cycling kind of thing where you want to cycle? You don't have to cycle it because there's no feedback loop here.

It's just an amino acid. Okay. So there's no, like creatine. Like there's no, you're not shutting down any endogenous process by doing it. But we will tend to bring it away just for a, if we don't have a particular purpose of supplements, we don't take them. It's like for that purpose alone, we're like, okay, great, we finished, we competed, we did something. We're pulling it back down. So for the people who are not in competitive sports, we will tend to just use it when we have.

a bigger priority or we're training really hard. And so we use it in six to ten weeks. And then if you want to like come off of it, but you don't have to cycle it. We have some people that are on it permanently and they just don't come off of it. I haven't seen anything to suggest that you need to pull it away if you don't want. And it's pretty safe. He said it's been been well studied.

Super well studied. I haven't seen outside of the acute tingling, I can't say I've seen any like side effects that have been documented that are a problem. Again, zamino acid, it's like pretty, pretty straightforward. So anything else, we didn't talk about the creatine dose. I mean, typically, I mean, like I said, Darren Kando just was on the podcast and talked about, typically for muscles, like five grams, but reasons to go up for cognitive. Yeah, I mean, Darren's published so much in this world.

We don't use the five gram number at all for the most part. As I've said a couple times now, it's because we deal with humans that are literally triple the size of each other. 0.1 gram per killer in Goddie weight is what I think he said. Exactly, right? Which translates to a lot of people as like three to five grams. Right. Where we probably spend more of our time as like seven and a half to 12 and a half grams. Most of the time, what goes to those three?

No problem there. Like, I'll go five, no issue there. You want to use five as a starting place? Awesome. Tid trade up from there. Really no downside of going higher. So we would like go quite a bit higher quite often. Darren's actually done some stuff at 20 grams a day.

Yeah. For years. So as long as you're not getting nausea is like the number one thing we get, right, just like, I got nauseous. Okay, great. So if you're not getting that, we run that train pretty high pretty often. People get GI distress. Some people get that.

I don't. Yeah. Yeah. Any other supplements? Well, you mentioned quickly, I think it's probably worth sodium bicarbonate. Yeah. Okay. Same idea, different mechanism, but same idea as beta alanine.

so sodium bicarbonate, you're making yourself more alkaline, right? That's all you're doing. So if you don't like beta alenine or don't want to use it or something like that, you can go the sodium bicarboner route. That is, you can get that at the cheapest price possible, baking soda. Right?

You can literally do that. We have done that many, many, many times. Just take baking soda and put in water and drink it. Way, again, many, many years ago, it's a little bit off color, but when we would have to run these studies of sodium bicarbonate, we would have to do it really close to the toilet because this will have a very pronounced acute GI effect on you. It's like there was many times of wheeling over carts when you have like an IV in somebody or something. You're like get them over to the toilet.

Not a good situation. So because of that, most people have modified the delivery mechanisms of sodium bicarbonate, but it does work pretty well. If you're concerned about that, you're like, that is the least appealing thing I've ever heard in a podcast in my life.

You can just use creams. Momentus makes PR lotion. That's exactly what PR lotion is. It's just a sodium bicarbonic cream. So this is local. So if you're using your arms today, you can put it on your arms and it has nothing that you don't have to put it

through your GI track at all. You can put it on your quad or whatever you're doing. So that is the best workaround for the GIA. And that improves your high intensity performance? Yeah, so do. You're also, you're putting sodium directly intracine as well as it'll get into, it'll get into blood flow. But this doesn't have to, this doesn't take weeks like beta alanine.

It's an acute effect. Yep. So you rub it on right before, you take it right before 30 to 60 minutes before training would be what you're looking for. It takes some time to get in and get into tissue. But yeah, this is an acute effect. And this is definitely something I would generally only use on training days where beta Al-anine you could take and probably should take on non-training days because it takes a while

for that's at storage to come up. Creatine, same thing. If you're going to use the sodium bicarbonate or equivalent, this is only like a pre-workout strategy. I want to get into recovery and some other things, but Torring. Have you ever messed around with torring? It comes to my mind. I've come across the leisure.

So my late mentor, Bruce Ames, called it a longevity vitamin. So, you know, he was, he's taking a gram a day and this was for longevity reasons and there's a lot of evidence for longevity. But I remember when I was looking into it, it was, I was finding coming across some performance stuff. It seemed a little mix, but I was kind of curious. We don't use it. No. No. It's good for mitochondrial health, but again, more longevity, I think, than performance-wise.

The closest you'll see is this will come in a lot of pre-workout cocktails. Yeah, what do you think of them? I prefer people having the least amount of artificial ingredients as possible. That's our default position, right? If you want to use a stimulant, we'd rather you use coffee, tea, so on and so forth, right? If you're going to use a pre-workout combination, the major downsides are we can't control dosage of individual ingredients. For most of our people, that's a problem.

For me, as a scientist, I hate it. I want to know what we're dosing. We're going to run experiments. We're going to try things out. And we have a pre-made cocktail. I don't have any influence on what we're tinkering with. So when something, I hate it. I like precision.

I like detail. I don't like the fact that we have a whole bunch of things coming in that we don't know. I don't actually know what's in there. I don't know that they're dosed at that level. Like we don't have, there's all these variables that we don't like. I'm also not ultra concerned that if somebody really wants to have a fill in the blank drink before they train. and that makes them train harder and better. All right, like, we can live with that.

Like, I can handle that. If that's your one thing we're dealing with. But if it's up to me, we're not going to use them. You'll never see me program mode ever. If someone already has it and they're going to, like, fight against it. Okay, I might let that slide, but it's never going to come out of my mouth. I don't like them because it might have a one or two compounds I'm interested in, but then it has a whole host of things that I don't want.

It's like I can never find. something that doesn't have something I don't want. Speaking of which, supplements that we don't want to take, I mean, I don't know if there's ones that actually inhibit performance, but I'm interested in the ones that are blunting adaptations.

Maybe we can talk a little bit about. Are there ones that are actually that you don't want to take for performance as well? Caffeine. If you go too high on caffeine, you'll actually see performance sacraments. Like endurance performance sacraments, way high. Like that stuff, like said earlier,

eight to 10 grams. per kilogram, you'll start to see performance come down. That's insane. I mean, you have to be taking some kind of powder or something. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you'd be drinking like six-bram.

So high-dose caffeine would be something that's going to impair performance. Of course, you could, like some people live at that level, so they'll be fine there. But yeah, that's one of them. I think what you're probably referring to is things like copious and excessive amounts of supplemental antioxidants. Yeah. Right. Antioxidants, anti-inflammatories.

Absolutely. the lab I was in as a graduate student did some of that original work on acetametaphene, things like that. So I was around for a lot of those programs. And then stuff came out on specifically things like vitamin C combined with vitamin E. Vitamin C in general,

vitamin E, we want to default to food. If we can get it from there, we do. That's where we're looking for all of our nutrients. Clear evidence, in my opinion, at this point, that antioxidant consumption from food, has no detrimental effect on exercise adaptation. Eat your blueberries to your heart's content, right? Eat the cherries, eat whatever you want.

Never seen evidence to suggest that that will blunt performance. There is some evidence to suggest, though, when you take those as a supplement, again, a couple of studies that were vitamin C, vitamin E. But are they always combined? Have you seen a vitamin C by itself blunting? Like, and what dose if you have? It's a great question.

I know. I don't think so. I've seen a lot of combined. Vitamin E is a very powerful antioxidant. It's like the hyper-power. Yeah. So I'm always, you know, it's something I'm very interested in because there's definitely a good amount of evidence that taking vitamin C in the dose range above 250 milligrams a day can help prevent some upper respiratory tract infections, particularly in high volume training endurance athletes. Yeah.

We use vitamin C. very judiciously. Not to get us back there, but you start actually looking at iron, what it does when you co-indjust iron with vitamin C. If you're going to go after iron, you probably should bring vitamin C along. You want to bring in collagen. Probably should bring in vitamin C. Super lower dosage, like 50 migs, right?

Like way down. You want to actually start doing anything to prevent someone getting sick when they're traveling. Again, especially when they're traveling in a six-to-eight-eight-week hyperchloric state. And they're going to be on a plane, and then they're meeting greeting, and they're fans. Okay, we're going to go, certainly going to go for any kind of immune support that we can have. I do not hesitate to go to a gram of vitamin C.

Right. You can go way up there for three days, five days, seven days, two weeks, whatever the case. Not super concerned about that. We're not going to live at that level. Like 500 milligrams, vitamin C is a very reasonable dose. What about, so do you think the timing of it? Like, would you, let's say someone works out in the morning. Yeah.

And they take their vitamin C. see like with dinner. What's a, what do you think a half-life is on 500 milligrams of caffeine? Or vitamin C. It's not very long. No, it's going to be pretty transient. It's like a couple hours. Right.

In the plasma. I bring that because I don't know the answer to, it's a really good question. Right. I don't know. Well, I'm just, I'm, what I'm interested in is, okay, so you know a lot about adaptations in terms of muscle adaptations, there's the cardiovascular adaptations, there's neural adaptations, right, that are happening in response. that are as a consequence to the inflammation and the oxidation that we are causing from exercise

that are important in those adaptations. And so what you're wanting, you're not wanting to blunt those, those antioxidants and inflammatory signals that you're making. So here's the case I'm trying to make. I don't think people should be supplementing with anything above the RDA for vitamin E, alpha ticophoreal in general. Yeah. It's just you don't need, you know, 400 IUs of alpha-tacophrol.

But all these studies that are coupling vitamin C with the vitamin E. It's like, hmm, well, are we seeing this because their vitamin E was there? I think there was like one, maybe one study. I recall, I have a topic page on vitamin C. I think it's on that topic page. And it was maybe 500 million, maybe it was a gram. I don't know. But I don't, I just, again, it's like, I,

it's good to know because, for one, I like to take high-dose vitamin C when I've been exposed or when my son's been exposed. It helps me. And so it'd be nice to know for athletes as well. It's like, okay, can I take that, you know, high-dose vitamin C

at a certain time? I don't even remember the last time we recommended vitamin E to anybody. So we rarely dose it for all those reasons. I'm also, the reason I asked you that half-like question was, I was thinking the same thing. I don't know,

I don't know anybody that's actually run any even light trial on timing of vitamin C for exercise adaptations. So I don't know. I don't know if you took it later in the day and you train, took it 12 hours away. I don't know that it would have a different effect. It may, it could. To answer your question, here's how we handle vitamin C.

We're not just giving it to people. It's not like a standard length like magnesium or omega-3. we will use it judiciously in different things but I'm also, I'm not worried about it. If you ask me what am I concerned more about the small amount of adaptation that I miss versus not being sick, that's an easy exchange for me.

Categorically, here's how we think about it. Again, athlete or non-athlete doesn't actually matter. There are times when we're trying to induce adaptation. When we're doing that, we're going to want to let those stress things happen. And there's times when we're trying to peak. We call this optimization versus peaking. If I'm peaking, I don't care about adaptation.

I'm trying to maximize performance in the short term. In that case, we are going way up on antioxidants. We're going way up on vitamin C. Don't want to get sick. Want you to feel great. We want you to perform what's your best right now. If that compromises some adaptation, fine, I don't care. Because we're trying to get the max performance right now.

If we're concerned about long-term optimization, I can't emphasize this enough. Even in people who are not competing, this is still a thing you should play with throughout the year. You should have phases of optimal. optimization, you should have phases of adaptation. You should be pushing this boundary. If not, you're going to kind of run medium all the time. And so that's how we will, I will have no problem putting it there. If we have some reason to think somebody is in a really high oxidative state

because of really poor nutrition, environmental exposures, any number of other things, then we might just kind of prophylactically give him vitamin C, probably at 500 milligrams. I wouldn't be, I'm not worried about that. I'm not super concerned. The other thing to pay attention to here is When we say adaptation attenuation, it's not blocking. It doesn't mean you're getting zero. It's you're getting 5% less, 10% less. Like some amount that matters, but it's not zero. It's not like absolutely zero.

Oh, I did nothing. Like, no, it just means you got 90% of where we thought we could have got potentially. Yeah, it would matter if it's every day. Maybe you're getting 5% less over 20 years. Right. But, you know, the way I, so if I remember correctly and, you know, people can go to my vitamin C topic page on my website and see there's like we have a graph it your your plasma levels peak and then I it goes pretty close back to baseline I would I want to

say after like three hours or so so I take if I'm taking it I'm take mine at night yeah and I'm you know all night I'm sleeping and so it's like when I work out in the morning my my level should be normal by then but that's that's kind of the way I approach it um anti-inflammatories you know How do you feel about people taking things like nsades for, you know, pain or as an anti-inflammatory if they're working out too hard because that also blunts adaptations, right? I mean. Yes. Yeah, it can.

It's the same, like you're running a calculus, right? Like, what are we worried about? Did you take them every day? Probably not for many reasons. Not a good approach. My wife actually just started a new training phase a couple of days ago. So she added a new, a couple of new exercises. she hadn't been doing, and she tends to do this, just went way too heavy. So much pain,

she has not been able to move for two days. Like, bad, right? She's just like, can't move without really, really substantial amount. I couldn't make my heart happier. Like, I love hearing her in physical pain just makes my joy there because she's not like hurt. You know, she's just like, oh my God. The kids are just terrorizing her, just like wanting to play with mom. And she's just like everything hurts on my body. yeah we're like she's using a lot of ends up threat like there's no there's no win here there's no positive benefit there's no adaptation we're missing with you being in extraordinary amounts of pain right in those particular cases when you overshoot it or whatever happens or yeah like use them

no problem if that's what you're using just to get through through your training then then our training program is probably poor or something else in our in our physiological process is depleting our recovery bucket and we need to we need to go fix that problem so if it is it is it is something we have to use. The exceptions there are our athletes, of course. Football is really hard sport. And if you got to take it to get through a football week, because that's your job, then like that's what we're going to do. And there's some other things there. But for the most people, yeah, we're not using them very often. Right. I like to look on your face, by the way, when I said my wife is in so much pain, it brings my heart joy. You're like, I'm just like,

I'm not smiling at me at all. I'm just wondering what she did, what she did to be in that much pain. that. Nothing crazy. Just like, um, she normally does a bunch of her training at home and then she was actually happened to be in a gym where it had some of their equipment and she's able to be like, like, load stuff more. And she was like just too happy at the moment. It was like, yeah. So she's doing some deadlps, um, some RDLs. I think she's more red pressing some lap pull downs. Like like not crazy stuff. I love being sore too. I mean, I love waking up the next day and it's great. Oh, it's the best. It's the best. Recovery. Recovery. Um, um, Let's start with some supplements for recovery, but we're going to get it into recovery as well.

I hear a lot about people have been asking me a lot about tart cherry juice, which when they're asking me about that, I was like, oh, you mean for sleep? You know, because I'm so used to like people taking tart cherry juice for sleep. But apparently it's being promoted for reducing delayed onset muscle soreness, recovery. So can you talk a little bit about? Yeah, there's either. That's not, there's data there to support muscle soreness, muscle damage. Could I make a strong argument that you wouldn't get the same thing

if you just had a really high similar food source? I think you could, actually. I don't think there's anything magic to that. I'm not surprised, right? If you think about what's in dark, rich colored fruits. Polyphenols. Right? Like, we know that that's there.

It's the same thing we make when people talk about, like, blueberries for cognitive performance. Yeah. It's also the same probably in strawberries and probably in raspberry. Like it's not like magic to the cherry or the blueberry, I don't think. It is a super high concentration of polyphenols in a bunch of different areas. That's probably doing most of the work here. But yeah, you will see that there. We tinker with it for a few years. We don't use it very much, honestly.

Is it, does it, you know, like I said, I want to get into recovery. And typically, you know, when I have delayed onset muscle, orness or doms, I go for a run and I'm good. Yeah. Like, I mean, it hurts when I start running and then as I'm going throughout the run, I start to feel better. And then the next day, I'm much better. Yep.

So, you know, I'm just wondering, you know, is tart cherry juice something you think I should try experimenting with? I mean, is it? Probably not. Probably not. Okay. You're not getting that sore that often. Then who's the kind of target person that may benefit from tart cherry juice or your blueberry polyphenol supplement

or your polyphenol booster supplement, whatever, fill in the blank. What dose? Yeah, again, we don't use it very often. So I'm probably not the person to make the case for people wanting to go out and try it. It's cool. It's fine. Again, the research is there.

I've seen it. It's compelling. You also mentioned sleep. That's another compelling reason. So if you're wanting to use kind of a double combo and you like it for sleep, where this is most popular is in like the bodybuilding, communities for those exact reasons. So I can take it a ton at night. It'll help me sleep and I'll be a little bit less sore. I'm kind of getting a double win. Is that because the melatonin in it

that sleep or combination of plausible? Plausible, probably all the above, right? And again, that research is actually there. You'll see it. And I have seen a lot of people who will anecdotally say, yeah, help my sleep a ton. But again, I probably haven't recommended it in five years or more. kind of did it a bunch and okay great yeah i just i've had multiple people asking me about it and so finally i was like okay what is this yeah yeah like when you start to have multiple people asking you start to look into it and see like okay we generally don't honestly favor recovery supplements that much that's just like probably the bigger answer here is supplements for recovery is not that great it's not as good as other things that we're gonna i hopefully discuss in a minute what about glutamine

yeah you can do that so we will use glutamine conditionally amino acid, right? So in our populations, when amino acid need is really high, again, you're combining it with caloric reduction, and you don't have that much room to go, like, I just can't give you more food, right? I can't give you more chicken breast. I can't give more turkey or elk or whatever we're doing. Okay, fine. So we have some argument for the conditional actually coming into practice with those people. Then you have the kind of area of glutamine with gut health stuff. And then we actually see that a little bit transfer over to even brain health. And you specifically, like post-concussion, calls. That whole line then starts to come together and you go, okay, for our population,

there's one, two, and three, likelihood of all that stuff. Okay, pretty reasonable. Add on top of that safety profile. No real downsides here. We're not worried about any other effect of it. Yeah, we will use it quite a bit, actually. That's the, that's, so I have a few thoughts on glutamine. One, that's interesting TBI because glutamine is, it's like a, it gets converted into, you know, it gets used by mitochondria as well as a source of energy. Totally. And in fact, I did a lot of research in graduate school with glutamine and T cells and activated T cells.

And this is kind of where I got into this. I now take glutamine for immune reasons. Yeah. And I got it. I don't know if you've seen any of the literature on long endurance athletes, you know, taking glutamine. Yes. I imagine you're taking it two times a day.

Are you splitting up your dose? I'm not. Sometimes. If there's an exposure, I'll take it three times a day. So if my son, all of a sense are sneezing, I'm like, okay. You're just scooping. But so glutamine is, it's used by activated T cells. And it just dawned on me.

I'd like done all this research. I'm like, you can take glucose out of a cell culture. As long as there's glutamine there, those cells are fine. They are fine because they consume glutamine as an energy source. it's used as, you know, alpha ketogluterate. So basically it gets converted to that. But I started taking it and this is total anecdot. But, you know, for a long period of time, I never got sick.

Then I became a mom. I still didn't get sick until my son started school. And then it was like insane how often I was getting sick. I was like, I was wondering if I had cancer. I'm like, what is wrong with me? And then I started to glutamine and I don't ever get sick. anymore. Really? I'm serious. I'm serious. Now I'm sure if the flu came up or something like I'd probably get it. But upper respiratory track infections, like if I get a little bit of anything,

it's a tiny bit of a runny nose for like a couple of days. And like I haven't, I haven't been sick in months. And that's unusual as a parent, as you know. Oh my God. So that's why I take it. I take it not for recovery reasons, but for I take it prophylactally every day. Now, gut health. 10 grams? So like I said, so right now I take five grams a day. No, 5.6. It's almost six grams. It's about six grams a day.

If there's, if I have any inkling suspicion that it's coming. 25 grams. I'm, I'm like 20 grams. I'm like up, up. And the only downside for me is I can get a little gas when I start going high dose. I think you're talking about no downsides. I would say the only downside is if someone has cancer. they have colon cancer or liver cancer or something like that.

Cancer cells like glutamine. I was talking about T cells, but cancer cells can thrive with glutamine. It's an energy source. Totally. And people don't realize that. And so I was thinking about the TBI thing that I'm totally going on off a tangent here. But I'm wondering if the TBI thing, if there's an energy component to it.

Oh, no, there absolutely is. There's huge. I covered this. I did a whole, we published a paper a few months. ago, myself, Tommy Wood and Federica Conti works with me at Parker now as my research scientist, published a review on preventative as well as post-brain injury, concussion, all the supplementation, dosage timing, all that stuff, as well as whole food equivalents. And that whole paper is open access.

So you can go through that whole thing. But yeah, this came out as a pretty clear one. When you start then poking around into the gut health literature as well, you start going, okay the immune stuff you just brought up this is such a clear connection between this entire chain from being sick to the brain health to the energy you pay attention to how it's working what it's doing you're like okay this is one of those times where it lines up and you go oh yeah now I get it like this is why it's having such cross benefit right absolutely makes sense in the gut too it's like it's being converted to energy your gut your gut your gut cells are using alpha keto

glutrate I mean it's so interesting I think there's just there's so much to be discovered with glutamine. Yeah. That I hope people are going to research that more, but... We do almost always 10 grams twice today, morning and night. Like, that's a pretty thing, especially if we have any inclination or direct evidence of actual gut issues, that's a common one. If we want to drop then back down to 10 grams total a day, like, we will do that. But we will generally live at least 10 grams a day. That said, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do your protocol because I'm not on it. And if,

every day. If I ever get sick again, I'm having a lawyer send a letter to you. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm,

everybody. I give it to my son as well, and he's not getting sick, like, nearly as much. It's, it's real. So I was thinking it was placebo.

It was like, oh, it could be placebo. Because, you know, honestly, if it was placebo, I don't care. If it works,

it works. But my son doesn't know that I'm giving him glutamine. What are you giving him? Three grams? I'm no, I'm giving him

Full five. Almost five. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, it's been a pretty night and day difference in terms of the effects on the immune system. I mean, I'm saying immune system. I don't know that it's actually. I'm just saying, it doesn't matter.

Yeah. Bringing illness into our house. Not getting a cold. This season has been unbelievable. And it's funny because this season has been the worst for all of my friends. Like everyone's been sick. Crushed. Yeah.

Everyone's been sick. We haven't. My wife probably has had one. one cold in a decade. Like, it doesn't matter. You could soak her in a bath of 16 cold viruses. She will get nothing. I'm so envious to those people.

Nothing. My daughter is, like, okay, but she gets a lot. My son and I just, you bring it home, it's over. Like, it's a wrap. I'm so done. And I get so mad because I'm like, I know all these things. I do this, whatever. This is my job.

And I can't. But I've never tried this at this level. Try it. I'm so, like, I'm fired up. I put it in my coffee. or, you know, my tea. And it does, you can, the coffee, if you put, like, monk fruit or stevia, you won't taste it. But it does have a taste.

As you probably know, you probably remember, it does have a taste. I'm a straight-stress shooter. We put it, I just put it like in that much water. Yeah. Right. Down in. Yeah. And we just dose it with all the rest.

It's like, put creatine, put it all in there, deal with six ounces of the light and just get it out. Now, what's it supposed to do for muscle recovery? Well, if it has that conditional effect, if it has any of the immune effect, it's going to have the same there. So you'll see muscle soreness as the problem. primary outcome to pay attention to there. Like, is it doing anything anabolicly?

In Cachexia, maybe, or like some other situations, circopanic, but for normal people, now, why we do it is the other stuff, for the most part. I just wonder how much of the glutamine, you know, because I remember, gosh, it's been so long, I did some of these, like, substrate labeling studies, and it was like, you know, a lot of it's getting

converted into glutamate and alpha ketogluterate and being used as energy. Yep. So it's fascinating. You kind of wonder how much of the glutamine that you're taking in is going as an amino acid versus the energy source. That's a great question. So you're not really big on a recovery supplement. I got two more to ask you about one. And we can kind of lump them together as well, but the hydrolyzed collagen powder for joints and tendons.

And this is where I get into, you know, it's high in arginine. It's actually really high in arginine. I take it mostly for skin because I've been pretty convinced. by the skin data. But I was, you know, what are your thoughts on, on? I've changed my tune on this one. I was not compelled by this evidence for a long time. I was also not compelled that as long as your protein intake, whole food is high or higher than ish, you know, like higher than basic numbers. It's not no compelling evidence. I don't care about skin. So I'm like, whatever. I've changed a little bit. More and more research has come out. And it looks like there's something actually happening.

Here, where this gets sticky is still the argument of organ-specific conversion. All right. So if you are consuming it, how do we actually know you're consuming collagen and that's getting into collagen? Well, the argument would be if it's all being broken down into its individual constituents and it doesn't matter. And then there's some talk of like, well, there are these special kind of conditional ones where it gets crossed through as these combination of amino acids.

So therefore it's going to be more targeting. collagen. We'll wait and see if that holds true or not. I'm not entirely convinced of that either. But that said, when you go to the end of the story, it does seem to be doing stuff for connective tissue and ligaments. The study that convinced me of that very question that you were asking, it was actually a while, published a while ago over a decade ago, and it was an animal study where hydrolyzed collagen powder was radiolabled and intact peptides were making their ways to the tendons. And I was like, okay. I mean, yeah, it's a rodent, but are we really going to say that, you know, an intact peptide is going to make its way to the tendons?

I mean, maybe it's not going to happen in a human, but it seems encouraging. And I would say, I think it's just an area where we probably don't have the answers yet. Like, we don't have all the answers. It may be something else. Maybe it's that. Maybe it's not that. But something's happening here. And so now we will very often recommend it prophylactically, even if you're not.

you're not injured. Certainly if you have any soft tissue injury history, you're compelled to that. 30 to 60 minutes pre-exercise seems to be the time. So timing dosage does seem to matter with collagen. I mentioned earlier co- congested with like 50 milligrams of vitamin C. Yeah. Seems to be the thing. This is all Keith Barr's work, like many other people, but he's the one who's pushed this for many, many years now scientifically. So he gets credit for a lot of this work. And again, Again, I was on the other side of the fins, I don't buy it. I don't buy it. I don't buy it. It's got a very different amino acid profile than protein, though. Completely different.

Proline and hydroxyproline. Yeah, I mean, it's... Well, this was the argument against it for many years. Like, this is why. For muscle, yeah, but like for connective tissue and... Now, pairs, potentially it mattered, right? So, yep, we'll do it. Yeah. As you've heard me say many times out, I also like to run like, well, what ifs? like what's the downside? There doesn't seem to be really any downside here.

So cost, money, sure. Physiologically, we're not blocking adaptations. We're not shuttling something else out. We're not doing, you know, long-term damage. We're not shutting off a pathway. Okay. Worst, we spent some money. All right.

Most of the people I'm around, they'll take that exchange. Then you start adding with something like collagen. Hair, skin. Other potential benefits? Like, okay. I'm getting potential benefits in multiple areas. There is some human research on this. It might work.

Very little downside. Yes, it's pretty cost-intensive relative to protein powder. And if that's your barrier, fine, I get it. No problem. But for the most part, it's not that expensive. Yeah, there's enough competition now that there's this quality brands that you can find. What are your thoughts on glucosamine, chondroit, for tendon joint.

We don't use it much. No. No. Honestly, I would have to dive back into that database. I haven't looked in many years. Kind of makes evidence as far as I last saw. Same. Sometimes all like, if I have an issue, it's like, okay, let's try to throw it.

Let's throw it in the bucket. I don't see a big downside just in case. I give it to my dogs. That makes you feel any better? That's the only thing we give them. They're old. But yeah, we don't use it. There's just, I think there's more compelling ways to go about it.

If we're having consistent injury issues, we're doing other things. That's not going to be our first, second, or third line of defense at all. Yeah. Okay. Well, we'll hopefully get into some of that because I want to get into recovery. This is an area where it's very important, as of course you know, but I don't know that a lot of people focus on recovery. Although it's becoming, I think, more increasing. It's more awareness is, I think, being generated now.

But I was thinking maybe you could kind of just start by walking people through the physiological process of what's going on during recovery. Why is it so important? How are you defining recovery? How are you labeling? I guess, you know, you're talking about the shifts in inflammation and immune response and cellular repair, all the things that are happening in response to the workload that you've applied and the inflammation that you've generated and the, you know, oxidation that you've generated. Okay, the reason I ask that is because we answer this differently

depending on how people are thinking of recovery. When we think about this in terms of like a muscle soreness, are we thinking about this in terms of a, my energy is low the next day? Are we thinking about this in terms of, I felt fine, but my actual performance was just a little bit lower. Those are three different types of recovery.

Are we thinking about this more chronically? Man, I've just been going down for several weeks and several months. Like, depending on how we frame this, my answer would completely different. So is there one or more of those that you would want to focus on? I think I'm thinking more about adaptations that are occurring to improve muscle mass and strength and your cardiorespiratory fitness, for example. Yeah.

Okay. So in that particular case, you've laid out the basic framework for us a second ago, right, in terms of the three big processes that happen there. It is not the case typically where you're actually tearing tissue down. in the case of strength training and muscle, we hear that all the time. Like you break the muscle down, you have these micro tears

that would then have those cascades that you're mentioning. That actually doesn't happen as much as people think. Most of the time muscle tissue is fine. We're certainly not tearing down a lot of tissue in our cardiovascular system. This is more of a signaling issue

than it is a damage issue. And we know that because you can induce those same adaptations if you cut those first parts of the equation out. So I can give you things that simply ramp up adaptation that don't require damage at all. I do not have to have inflammation

to induce adaptation. That is the primary signal, though. Same token, if I give you an inflammatory agent without any tissue damage at all, I can get similar adaptation. So we can cause physiological responses with an inflammatory marker that comes in rather than an actual tissue damage.

So those things are independent of itself. It's not there. But you laid out the basic cascade, some sort of inflammatory immune response, there, some sort of tissue edema swelling, and then some sort of back cascade. Why supplements, why different tools, why different recovery protocols work and why they matter is because they can target any aspect of that, the front side or the backside, the insult coming in or the adaptive response. And you can play a game any part of that area. We will use different solutions

based on why we think that the thing happened in the first place. So that is our overall framework of how we set up recovery in this context. So then let's take a step forward and talk a little bit about what you were asking me. And that would be like, how can a person, an athlete sort of know if they, what can they, what could metrics can they look at to help signal if they are, if they're helping, if they're, if they're normally sort of recovering from their training versus not. So then muscle soreness, the injury, like what, what sort of metrics? First, most important metric is how are you feeling? And I'm saying this because if you look at actually the data, and we've done this across millions of data points,

like literally millions of heart rate variability data points and things like that, subjective perception, how you feel today, will stack up as tight as almost any other biological metric we can pick. It's really, really important. If you're feeling good, if you're making progress and you don't feel terrible, then I'm not worried about your recovery at all. Like, we're done. equation.

So when you ask me, what should people measure? Most of the time, the answer is nothing. Don't worry about it. You making progress? Yeah? You're a lot of pain and suffering? No? Good.

We're done. Like, you want to do metric behind that. Sometimes it makes things worse. Like, sometimes we're looking at data and it's not the right way to go about it. And that can cause problems. We end up pulling technologies away from people a lot. We pull sleep trackers away from people a lot. We do those things.

So I'm bringing that up because that is the metric you should care about. Progress and pain. We're going on both those. We're done. Like this is the only recovery equation we're happening. If we're running into issues with one of those two things, now we'll have a conversation. Okay.

So let's say you have muscle soreness again. We're back to the muscle soreness. Easy. No problem. Muscles are sore. Step number one input. What's your training program look like? I told you the story earlier.

Wife getting super sore. There's not a supplement there that we can do to fix her. that was a training program error. And her case was not, it actually she uses Brett Contreras's program. Okay. Not Brett's fault. That was her dumb,

dumb fault. Like she did a training boo-boo as she calls them. And okay, great. That's not as something we have to go fix. I was just like, all right, like don't do that again. Or suffer. Let's just throw that one out.

Let's go to the backside. Let's assume your training program is good. And just for the sake of speedy conversation here, let's assume sleep and nutrition and mental health and all that is okay, right? Because that is all going to be part of our real equation. Let's go to the end of it.

What do you do? Got super sore. How do you fix it? Supplements, again, would not be our route. If you need to take pain relievers because you're there, fine. What's going to be more effective? Now you're actually starting to talk about things like blood movement. You actually mentioned earlier you like to move.

A low level of physical activity in terms of magnitude of effect is almost always going to be your biggest impact. Can you get something? Can you get out and move a little bit? thermal stress is another big favorite of mine sauna great i like direct contact though so if we can get in warm water i prefer that so this is jacuzzi bath things like that if you want to go to and we've run a couple of actually dom studies two of them using normatech boots right and compression boots air boots like things that go there that is fine as well we've done a muscle stimulation stuff so yeah

muscle stem units and things like that you'll you'll find data that supports all of those things. If you want to sledgehammer things and use a combination, we will do that too. We will say, okay, great, we're going to bath today. We're going to do Norma Tech boots. We're going to do hyper-ice stuff. We're going to do compression stuff. You can do all of these things. They probably are working on similar mechanisms, but again, no downside. And if you're in that much pain and suffering, use them all. Like, really try to use everything. Because what you're basically doing is you're doing low-level physical activity for many, many, many hours. of the day. We'll use Firefly. That little tiny device you can put on the front of your leg. It's a little

strip. Makes your toe being kind of up down. You can do it for hours a day. So you can put that thing on. You're on a plane. You're working. Your toe and your foot is flexing at a high frequency. Right. Dunbo, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's been shown a bunch of times to be super effective for recovery. So there's tons of little tools we can do, but all of it is basically doing the same thing. It's low-level blood flow for a long period of time. So pick your tool, pick your poison, you want free, you want expensive, you want combinations, I can give them all to you, but it's all, again, basically on the same thing. So the level of blood flow, and you're saying for a long period of time, so what I'm doing is a short, I'm doing, you know, 30 minute run. And is, what's going on here,

is it delivering just oxygen and nutrients and inflammatory, you know, things are going to the right tissues, like, or what's the mechanism there? All the above, right? All the above. I would have bet, too, after you do your run, you're probably a little more physically active. Because you're not a sore. So you're probably going to be walking a little bit more.

You're going to be getting up. You're going to be doing things more interactive throughout the day. So your 30-minute run is still going to net on aggregate. Get a lot more blood flow. Yeah, more blood flow in, more nutrients in, more waste products out, all the above. You also have indirect signaling. A lot of pain. to go back a little bit.

A lot of like muscle, soreness pain is neurological. Right? So you have pressure likely happening on the nerve endings in that specific area. So you can get some of that fluid out of there.

You have less pressure. You have less pain receptors. You also have desensitization that's happening, right? So you're moving in sodium potassium pumps at, like on the cell membrane, that's moving stuff back and forth, right? We're seeing adaptation there.

So it's going to be a combination of all that. I don't know if I've ever seen any particular set of papers that say like this is the exact molecule signaling property that that is like explaining all of muscle soreness so the best answer we could say would be all of those things are likely contributing on some level um at the end of the day most of the time exercise induced muscle soreness is a cellular pressure issue and so the more that you can get that out there you have to get the inflammatory signal out of there because that's going to keep putting you back into tissue swelling

So get the fluid out and then stop the signal that says stop putting more tissue or fluid in there. And then eventually you're going to get yourself back to normal. What do you do if someone's feeling a soreness that isn't necessarily going away? It's kind of sticking around. It's not like a really bad injury kind of thing, but it's enough to affect their performance. It's enough that it's like there's something going on. Now this like compression thing, I've kind of been. experimenting around with it. Voodoo floss, the word Voodoo floss. So I guess this is blood flow

restriction. Yeah. And you wrap it around something. Like for me, I've got like this forearm thing. It's like the tiny tendons or something. And it really is when I'm pulling. Yeah. You're probably actually looking more of a facial issue than you are blood flow. That's what the voodoo floss stuff is going to do. So you're pinning and twisting and moving. So you're, it's connected tissue glide and slide. So your connected tissue is supposed to glide actually. So people don't like actually realize this very often. But you should be able to pinch your skin and pull it away from your tissue. That's not just fat there. If you are pinned down constantly, that's a connective tissue facial issue. And so what you're doing with that is you're rubbing it both horizontally and vertically.

And when we typically think about like massage, it is a vertical compression, right? I'm pushing down on the tissue. I'm down on the tissue. What you'll see often I'm more about it is actually horizontal movement and pulling away. This is, if you ever seen like cupping, people do that, you're pulling skin away from fascia rather than smashing fascia back into it when it's kind of knotted down already. So any relief you're getting there is not probably for the blood flow. It's the fact that you're pinning that fascia and then you're moving the tissue around the fascia and getting that kink, if you will, to let go.

So completely different mechanism of action there. that is acute and chronic, but mostly that is an acute issue. If you're dealing with things like, like runners will get a lot of like side leg pain, TFL pain, IT ban, a lot of times same issue there, right? So like you're getting more glide and slide

that fascia can move appropriately and that's where the pain signal is going to. People don't realize that there's a load of nerve endings in fascia. There's a ton. So if that stuff gets irritated and aggravated, that's going to be pain. That's probably not a muscle issue.

You might not necessarily be able to tell. You can't, a lot of people can't tell their fascia versus their muscle, but more likely than not, it's connected to its fascia issue. And what is the best way for fashion? Is it something like a voodoo floss? You can. Conceptually, you just want to move it.

So if voodoo floss does it for you, awesome. If you want to roll out on a lacrosse ball, cool. If you want manual massage, great. Cupping. Infinite ways to do it, But what you want to do, again, is not just compress. The only thing, traditional, like a foam roller or any other self-mile fascia release,

generally people are smashing down. What we want to think is actually pulling away, so pulling the fascia away from your body rather than smashing it into the muscle, and then rotating it moving it horizontally, gliding up and down versus just smashing together. So the compression thing that you were talking about the boots? Yep. So that's working through blood flow restrictions? and then how's that working?

So there's a whole host companies that make this Norma Tech is the one that's been on the market for a long time. They actually recently got acquired by Hyperice, right? But these are boots that you can sit

and they make them for the upper body too, but you can sit in them and imagine a pair of pants and the parapands inflates with air all the way around it. And so it goes on and it inflates,

entire leg gets crushed and then it deflates. And it gets crushed and deflates. And so it squeezes back and forth and back and forth. So you get a little bit of hypoxia, a little bit of blood flow. A little bit of hypoxia, a little bit of blood flow. And they can do it for 20 or 40s or 60 minutes or however long you want. It's basically simulated exercise. A little bit of blood, a little bit of back.

So blood flow, yes. You will actually see really compelling evidence on water immersion. Yeah. Not only cold water. I simply mean water. No, but, oh, really? Yeah. Well, heat, I would say for sure, because you're also increasing blood flow, right? But it's the orthostatic pressure that comes with being in fluid that will do the same thing. This is many, again, one of the many reasons why I'm like, like sauna is not the only answer here. It's great for a thousand things. But the water itself is playing a little bit of a magic rule. And we know this because there have been trials where we've actually controlled four temperature.

And you still get those benefits of just being in that, in that fluid environment. So if you can do that, you can gravity changes in the equation. Things can move in and out of tissue. And there's actually pressure that comes from being in the water. It's a low level pressure that smashes up against your tissue. Now, if you want to change temperature and you get some of those other benefits, that's great too. But the water itself is fantastic way. So I would strongly also recommend people getting into water if they can. Let's talk about that. Let's get into, okay, so for recovery, you hear, I mean, you, you know, probably know I'm super. super into the deliberate heat exposure through also jacuzzi and sauna. Yeah. There's cold water immersion. I'd love to talk about how. So with the heat exposure and jacuzzi sauna, it sounds like jacuzzi might be, might be the winner with respect to the water.

The water, orthostatic part of the water as well and helping with blood flow. Yep. And also the, does it help with the fascial tissue as well? Probably not. You might help you manipulate. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's, I mean, there has been, you know, some evidence on, on sauna improving

blood pressure, but there's a lot of literature out there on hot baths and Casey's doing it. Totally. I mean, it's probably a lot more robust in a way as well. Yeah, I mean, you have the pressure issue we talked about. And then we have all the other heat-related mechanisms that you've talked about for many, many years now that happened to. So you combine those two. It's a big win.

And it's not really, like, you don't have to worry about the timing as much around exercise. In fact, you can get in a hot jacuzzi or a hot sauna right after you lift weights. In fact, there's some evidence that it's beneficial. Right. It's like supportive. Yeah. We do it a lot. We do it a lot post exercise.

Do you both endurance and weight training, both? Yep. The only thing you got to be careful with is if you did something that you really went over the edge with in terms of training, if you get into a sauna, sometimes it feels like a delays recovery. every little bit because it actually kind of feels like it exacerbates the training like you've continued to train particularly if you've gone really hard like if we've had a our folks of um played like a five hour round of golf in Georgia in August probably not hopping in the sauna afterwards right because like fatigue is high fluids are already low so on and so forth we're not going to add that on in that particular case we're like walking it away so when you you got

to think through this stuff a little bit more when you're saying all right we are actually are pretty fatigued let's not add that. to that bucket. But like a normal exercise session, yeah, hop in a sauna jacuzzi afterwards. Like, we're all, we're all game for it. Totally here. What do you, there's a couple of things I want to talk about with the sauna. One, what do you think about some of the, I would still say, preliminary at this point literature on using deliberate heat exposure as a way to improve endurance like adaptations and improve performance. So here's how we will frame it. It's not, a substitute for exercise, of course, but it's better than sitting on the couch for most things.

So, training is first. If on top of past that, or we have an injury or fill in the blank there, then we can use sauna to keep maintenance, to keep pace, to keep some cardiovascular adaptation going. So if we're pulling training down, like oftentimes we actually have to pull high intensity exercise down from people. If you're dosing high intensity stuff, like truly high intensity endurance work too often, that can put people in really bad spots. So what we can do sometimes is pull them off of that and insert sauna and they still can kind of feel like a little bit of I worked really hard. And some people need that, not for physical reasons, but for other rationale. So we'll use it in those particular cases. Or we're deloading. Or we're doing any number of other

things where we can't get as much exercise we want or we'll ring it down. So we use it in that particular context. If we then take it into an individual athlete and we're trying to use it for specifically performance benefits gains, I would only be okay doing that if training volume is pretty low. Because anything that takes away from training in an athlete, there has to be a really big payout because specificity wins. So if that means we're doing less miles on the road, Well, some people can afford less miles. Sometimes that's a good thing. But we've got to be really careful of maintaining

always training specificity. In that context, that's how we'll handle that thing. So it would be really time dependent and whatever else is going on in our life. Have you seen some of the data? There's only really one human study that I've seen, lots of animal studies, looking at local heat.

So on humans, it was the local heat applied and how it prevented disuse atrophy, but like 40%. And then there's, of course, tons and tons of animal studies. In fact, I was talking about the animal studies before the human data came out, and I got a lot of pushback for that. But I do think it's, again, in that sense where you can use it on the days where you're not training as much to help with not only the cardiovascular adaptations that you mentioned, but also helping prevent disuse atrophy, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's... Yeah, like, I love heat.

It feels good, of course. Feels way better than cold. We rarely have a hard time convincing people to do stuff that involves the heat. It's like, okay, put a hot pad on your leg. All right. I'm in for that one. High price makes a bunch of stuff. I don't have any connection to them at all, but they just make a bunch of little easy things to put on your legs and your arms that get hot really fast. They're super easy to use.

So we will do those things, again, quite a bit. Whether or not they're making a benefit in our high performance, I don't know. But if they're like, that felt good. That's a win. Plausably helping. Cool. Yeah. Well, it sounds like even for recovery, it might.

I mean, that's a benefit if it's increasing the blood flow and helping with the, to delayed onset muscle soreness and things like that. Yep. Cold water immersion, on the other hand. Yeah. This is something, it's funny because it's really, it's become popular in, as a recovery tool. And I don't, I don't, there's a lot of people that I've spoken to, you know, friends that didn't know it could blunt adaptations.

Sure. Particularly, you know, muscle hypertrophy. Yeah. and they're like, what? Like, I'm getting into it after I left great. You finally convinced me to do it, and now you're telling me I'm screwing myself up. Your fault.

Let's talk about that. Yeah. Muscle soreness, it seems pretty clear based upon the data that is available, that cold water immersion is more effective than something like cryotherapy, right, or cold shower. There has been some papers that showed crowd therapy itself

did help with muscle sorenas, but if you stack them again against the, the cold water immersion, the water wins. So we really never use cryotherapy. If you're going to use something like a cold shower, then there's other reasons for it. I don't think I wouldn't put my money on cold showers doing much for muscle soreness, right?

Again, many other reasons why one could do it, but that would not be the primary goal if we're using it for that. So right out the gates. Now, it does work. And many studies have been done, and I would say our anecdotal experience, my personal experience, our coaching experiences would support that.

Generally, people are going to be a little bit less sore when they go in it. Do we do it immediately post-workout for people trying to grow muscle? No. Many in studies now, and I feel like every couple of weeks another one comes out and I'm like,

good gracious, we know already. Like, we know already. Stop doing this. Stop doing that work. We know it's not a good idea. The questions that come up then next usually are, okay, so how long post-exercise do I have to wait?

no one knows that's the study they need to do no one yes like stop doing the basic one we know that answer there's like seven studies at least now that have done it we get it i don't know right the if you look at that time course stuff we've done on um like gene expression that happens within seconds or signaling happens within seconds and is ramped up for minutes to hours post exercise depending on the marker and thing like that gene expression typically peaks three to four to six hours, again, depending on the one you're looking at for muscle enamelism. Muscle protein synthesis, you're at 48 hours. Okay?

So, like, I don't know. Because people always ask, like, what if I lift in the morning and I, and I, I, I don't know. It's probably better than lifting and immediately getting into your ice bath, but. Probably. Is it four to six hours? Because of the, that's what that number comes from, by the way. It's like all that time course research on gene expression. you're also talking about like four or five genes that were in that study so it's not like

it's the exact like complete mapping of the entire anabolic genetic response it's like a few of the markers some of them are at four but they weren't all some of them peaked at an hour some peaked like seven hours later so like the four hour window thing is like a it's not exactly what people think it is so nobody has any idea like i have no idea at all i can again i'll tell you how we typically handle it but yeah we don't know yeah let's let's talk about how you typically handle it Also, you mentioned when you're talking about adaptations, the different things that are happening. There's the inflammatory response. You know, there's the hormonal responses that are happening. There's a lot of things that are happening, right? And so those things have different time courses.

We're talking about muscle protein synthesis, right? You're talking about it's elevated for 48 hours after exercise. And I know I had Luke Van Loon on, you know, not long ago. And he's done at least one study, I think two. looking at cold water immersion and muscle protein synthesis. And he was saying, yeah, I mean, you know, because the cold water immersion causes vaso-constriction. So not only are you not getting, you know, the inflammatory mediators to where they need to be and all that signaling, you know, molecules and things like that, amino acids are not going to muscle either as readily. And so he was saying, you know, you might want to, you know, wait 24 hours, like, basically. I'm like, so that sounds like a recovery day.

but some people are training every day. Yeah. Some people are training every day. I mean, I don't know if they should be training seven days, you know, maybe six days. I don't know. But I guess recovery day can be your endurance aerobic day because I don't know if that's really been shown that it's plunting any adaptations. In fact, there's been some performance enhancements, right? Have you looked into that literature?

Yes. Yeah. Not a ton to go off of there. but yeah, like one queen can do that. The quick answer there is you're looking at mitochondrial benefits. Like, which is, okay, like, then there's some plausible thing there. We don't use cold water immersion a ton. I used to use it more.

We do it when we do it, when we do it, when we do it rather, it's for other reasons. If somebody really overcooks it and they're super sore, great. Okay. The other reasons we use it are generally not performance base. okay we're not using it for longevity or lifespan anything like that we tend to use it for things like stress inoculation for nervous system resilience for breathing mechanics that's the rationale we typically go to cold water that said we have pulled cold water away from people a lot because there can be serious neurological not nervous system problems that come with cold water immersion there can be

sleep issues that come with cold arm immersion for some people. So in those people, we tend to back it off because it's a stressor. It's a very big stressor. And if your all static load is already over the brim, some people cold is great. Some people it is pushing past and making things worse. So we'll wind it back. That said, I love it. I have it. I have multiple at my house. I've been doing it for a very long time. I had a deep freezer in the back of my house for many, many, many years that I use. But it's not for everybody. It's not the danger though. It's not going to like block all your adaptations. But it's probably not something you have to be doing every day to live a great life either. So lots to say about that. So mostly people can use it for their muscle soreness.

Yep. And other reasons. Presumably, yeah. I mean, a lot of people use it for like you said, the neurological benefits. I mean, it's something that I, if I use it, I don't use cold water immersion unless it's summer, to be honest. I know all about the science. My husband uses it. Well, right now he's like, we had to get a new pump, which we got, but then he had to clean it and all this. But he typically uses it every night. He uses it at night.

He uses it at night, which is funny because a lot of people use it when they wake up in the morning. Yep. For like that, like, wake up response and you feel like the norapinephrine, you know, you're feeling focused. And he uses at night because it helps him sleep. which you know I guess the coldness maybe a bunch of reasons that you would explain that like in so we've actually plotted this we did a bunch of stuff probably four or five years ago

we didn't publish it just we were we were tinking around with stuff and we started looking at HRV we brought it up just in case people aren't aware it's a marker of overall recovery we'll kind of keep it at that for now and when you go into the ice whether this is anywhere between 30 to 50 degrees for a minute to five minutes you're generally going to get out of that ice and you will see sympathetic drive,

fight or flight is elevated like pretty consistently. That said, we plotted this every 15 minutes for up to three hours post and you just continually see a rise in parasympathetic drive for up to three hours post. So I don't know when he's using it,

but I would be, I would be willing to strongly bet he is far more downregulated going to bed. when he does the ice for that exact reason. You got to time it appropriately because again, when you get in the ice and immediately somewhere between 15 to 30 minutes post ice exposure,

you'll be more sympathetically driven. But after that, for several hours and most of the people, they were far more. And I'm talking about like 20 to 50% reductions, or elevations rather, in HRV, meaning more per cent for many hours.

And we stopped actually collecting the data at three hours. So I don't even know how long that thing lasts. But I'm not surprised. Yeah, we have a non-small amount of people who like it in the evening as well. Yeah, interesting. Yeah, he does it. I mean, it's at least an hour before that.

I'm not surprised at all that he likes it. Yeah. But yeah. Does he shower then before he goes to bed? Does he get hot again or does he? Yeah. Sometimes he does shower, but it's like a really quick. Yeah.

Like not, I don't know that he gets hot. He's actually, he's cold in bed, so it doesn't really. Make him hot. There you go. There you go. But he does hot tub before getting in the cold. Oh, he likes to get hot first and get in the cold. They'll get hot and then get in the cold.

I hate, I do the opposite. I go straight cold. I'm like, I hate going hot. Oh, I don't hate it. But I'm like, all right, just get cold. Just like do the cold and get over it. But a lot of people like it that way. I don't really prefer.

I don't like doing hot to cold. I get blood pressure changes that are like. Orthosatic. Too much. Yeah. For me, I'm just like, I have to wait a little bit. before, especially if I'm like hot tub into the cold, I have to, I've had like some scary times where I'm like, like, just, I didn't like it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Understood. Okay, so you were talking

a little bit about HRV and that's it. And you talk about heart rate variability. And I wanted to talk about, we were chatting a little bit about this before, before we got on camera. And for for measuring something that people can like, you know, maybe on their wearable device. Yep. Measure a marker of recovery. Now you said subjective, how you feel wins. Yep. Okay.

And it seems to be the case with almost everything. Like how hard are you going? Do you feel like what's your heart rate going up to? Or do you feel like your perceived exertions? Oh, your perceived exertion is going to win, right? Yeah, yeah. So Ben Levine was on the podcast and he was actually arguing. that heart rate variability is extremely variable in terms of the way it's measured.

And, you know, he just sees tons of variability like plus or minus 25 percent constantly, depending on like the variety of factors, the time of day, they're breathing, just everything like that. And he likes to look at resting heart rate. Like first thing when you wake up in the morning, what your resting heart rate as a good marker of recovery. And if you're resting heart rates higher, then it should be, then it's kind of like, okay, maybe you're getting into this over, non-functional overreaching, which I want to talk about overtraining. Yeah. But nice use, by the way. Good dig.

Thank you. That's good. But HRV. So do you think there's, you know, if there's some way people can kind of follow this consistent measurement protocol, same time a day, same posture, same controlled breathing or something? something that they do like a controlled breathing thing before they measure it, something that's giving them, you know, consistency. Yeah, the big ones in this particular area, these are all respiratory related, what you just described. There's lots of ways we measure readiness, performance, fatigue, like depending on which spectrum you're in here, people will call these different things,

load management. They're performance-based ones. These ones you've all mentioned are in the respiratory physiology side. So that's great. We'll just stick right. there. Now, HRV is one of them. Resting heart rates, another. More commonly, though, that we use our respiratory rate, and then you can look at something like CO2 tolerance. Let's just disregard those for now. We'll focus on respiratory rate. We'll focus on, yeah, on HRV and heart rate. Resting heart rate is a good sign if conditions are stable. If your resting heart rate becomes elevated at probably more than three to five beats per minute for more than a couple a day that is a good sign something is happening. In this case, not a good thing, right? So it's starting

to become elevated, as you said earlier, generally indicates you're getting overcooked, right? Too much training or all-a-static load, total stress. It's like something. Not enough recovery. calories, something's going on there. The issue with that is resting heart rate is incredibly unsensitive. It takes weeks for that to happen. You're well into that problem. And when you start seeing changes in resting heart rate, you are so far down that road that you've, like, we should have saw this weeks ago. Even first thing in the morning resting heart rate you're talking about? 100%. Yeah. You will not see a change in first thing resting heart rate for a very long time into problems. The reason why people like HRV more is because it is far more stable.

It is also like resting heart rate non-specific. So you don't know what's happening, but that variability that you're mentioning that Ben talked about earlier, that's also the benefit. Once you establish somebody's standard deviation, what do they normally fluctuate, right? Some people are going to be really neurologically, or nervous system will be super stable. Some people's nervous system is really unstable. That itself is a marker. How wide you range on your daily HRV is incredibly telling to what's going on in your system. Because of that, that sensitivity, I can see things happening really quickly.

Now, some of the common mistakes with HRV are looking at the flat score, right? you know if I said right now like Ronald what's your resting heart rate and if I said your resting heart rate to 100 beats per minute you know that's bad if I said right now your HRV is 100 you have no idea if that means anything

I wouldn't know I'd have to be like okay well what device was that on what condition's like I still don't know so the benefit of something like a heart rate is it's clear and defined for the most part good and bad HRVs not it's really a moving target so it's more sensitive

but it tells us information. The variability, like I said, tells us a lot. In addition to that, once I establish your normal standard deviation, when you start exceeding one, especially two standard deviations for more than a couple of days, something is happening. And I will tell you right now, you will see that way before you start seeing changes in resting heart rate. That problem is going to occur way before. You don't want to overreact to a single day, as I mentioned. So you wake up, your HRV and your devices, we'll pick a number.

70 normally. Some people will stay within 70 to 75 to 65. So their standard deviation would be like 5 milliseconds. Some people's normal standard deviation is 20. How do they establish their normal standard deviation? 30 days. 30 days. Measure for 30 days. Try to keep things stable. Take the average, right? Most of your tracker devices and stuff will like give you these numbers anyways. If you're more than outside that standard deviation for one day, eh, whatever. Don't really care. Right. If it is three plus days, I typically am looking for five plus days. Five plus days of a continual pattern in one direction or the other, something is happening. Now it's non-specific. So there will be a lot of noise in the system. But again, I think this is like, this is a feature, not a perk, not a downside. Because we're going to see, like, okay, did you change something in your food and your sleep and your environment, you know, fill in the blanks? Everything can tinker in there.

we will use HRV a decent amount some people though as I said earlier they get so obsessed with those numbers we take it away and go hey just how are you feeling today right because of those exact problems been as mentioned like there'll be a ton of variability people can't get this past year i literally was dealing with um a client he's like we'll just say sold a company early in life he's in his 40s and just has way too much money right this is he serves that he does everything that we measure on him is fantastic. He's been in the program for probably a year and a half. So he's super dialed on everything. And he just can't get this HRV score out of his brain. Like he can't get it because he's just like, it's down, it's down, it's down. It's not down.

Right. For him, this is a normal number. And also, by the way, these technology companies, if you're using that stuff, they change algorithms constantly. So like your scores can there. So those are all the reasons if you're like paying attention to commercial HRV stuff. Ben is right. You should be super skeptical. Don't overinterpret those things. If you see something like resting heart rate change, that means something. There's no accident there.

That wasn't because you had a bad night of sleep. And if you're consistently seeing an elevation of heart rate. One day difference in HRV could be nothing. It could be completely irrelevant to what you're doing. But that doesn't mean necessarily that it's a bad marker. I mean, using it appropriately, there's a ton of information we can glean out of that. specifically again, where we find most of the value is even things like biofeedback training.

We can develop more resilience within your nervous system, and you can objectively see that. And so we can use a whole bunch of different tools where we can give people, and we can say things like, okay, can you calm yourself down. Can you? Oh, yes, I can. Great. Well, then show me in your physiology. And you can see them looking at HRB data and going, oh, it's not. moving. Oh, great. This is why we want you to go do A, B, and C, or they can, a bunch of different

ways you can do it. So that's a lot of value in H.R.B. independent of just my single one ultimate recovery marker. In my opinion, respiratory rate is even better. When you see changes in respiratory rate, this will happen way before changes in resting heart rate, and this itself will influence both resting heart rate and HRV. If you start breathing more, something. is happening. There's actually a really interesting paper. Laura Bloomfield did a couple of papers where she measured all these things. Resting heart rate, sleep, HRV, and looked at stress. And one of the things she found in her second actually, two studies. And the second one found that you'll see something like your likelihood of experiencing moderate to high stress. One beat per minute

increase in resting heart rate gave like a one to two percent increase in risk. But a One breath per minute change in resting heart rate was a 20 to 30% increase in likelihood of experiencing moderate to high stress, which is a way of saying that stuff will flag way before resting heart rate. Resting heart rate didn't do anything, didn't tell them anything about it. But HRV and specifically respiratory rate shot way up. You can see acute stress. If I look at someone's day in the morning and your normal respiratory rate is, say, 12

breath per minute overnight, and you're at 14, I'm like, whoa, something's going on. If you're at 14 for two days in a row, boom. You're going to get sick the next day or you're already sick or something like, hey, it's going on, Ronnie, okay? Like what's going on? Like, oh, my God. Like something's happening. And so for me, when we're coaching people like we're coaching them, I don't want to

wait six weeks to start seeing problems happen. I need to go like, hey, this happened right now. What the heck is happening? What's going on? And from our opinion, HRV and respiratory rate will jump off the charts way before resting our rate. How accurate are respiratory rate devices? that are measuring the rate?

Depends on the device you're using, if you start going out to the wrist and the hand, we start losing accuracy, right? If you're actually using a chest strap, we're getting better. When we really care about it, like in our actually like sleep testing stuff, we're going to have a device directly on your chest.

We're measuring not only respiratory rate, but we're measuring the amplitude of change in your chest. We're measuring the direct movement of it. Outside of that, though, respiratory rate's pretty easy. To measure. But I mean, if someone's doing this at home, are they going to be wearing a strap, like, while they're sleeping?

You can't. Or you can wear your wearable. Your watch. But you say you lose accuracy if you wear your watch. For respiratory rate, it's okay. For HRV, we start to lose accuracy. But respiratory rate is actually pretty easy to pick up from a tracker. So you'd be okay there.

HRV gets tricky. And the respiratory rate, so you're mentioning the studies how stress would, I mean, it's very sensitive to stress. Yep. And that's not just like psychological stress. It's just exercise. It's any type of stress on the body. Nutritional stress.

Environmental stress. Again, you'll see, if you remember a few years ago, well, years ago, we all remember COVID. There was a bunch of different devices that came out where NFL, the NBA, actually, I think they did it with aura. They were able to have these like pre-COVID flags. And we had a bunch of professional athletes. And I'll, like, I'll give Orr some.

credit here. It was pretty good. And what I'm saying is we would get an alert. We're like, boom, it's like somebody else COVID. We're like, what? No signs, no symptoms. And then days later, boom. Well, it's a combination. Respiratory rate, body temperature and a handful of other things. And they had this, like, fancy algorithm. They just opened it up, like, publicly last year or something. My friend, Dr. Ashley Mason's the one that's, she was involved with all that studies with us. Dude, it's fantastic. Yeah. Like, I'll let's tell you, like, I didn't look at the data. I didn't read the papers. But for our athletes, like, it was pretty much spot on. Like, damn. And you, like, have a day to prepare. You're like, okay, great. You're going to get

COVID tomorrow. Like, we just knew what's happening. So those things can be pretty sensitive. Even, again, that's a wearable on their finger. And they were able to get good enough with their data to figure out you're getting sick the next day. So it can be, yes, stress. It can be nutrition. It can be actual, like, bacterial viral infection, environmental exposure, allergens, tons of things like that can flag that make people breathe more. Now, would this change in respiratory rate indicate someone is transitioning from like functional overreaching to non-functional reaching? Maybe you can explain what that is. Yeah.

And then we can talk a little bit about like if that is a good indicator, what the best indicators are of that. Yeah. Besides, I mean, the way you feel as well, I don't know where that comes into being able to determine that. Yeah. Okay. Great. In order for you to create adaptation, we have to put in stress. That's how the body maneuvers itself. the more stress, the more adaptation. At some point, though, too much stress overwhelms the system,

and we start having negative adaptations. We start going backwards, we stop making progress, and eventually, actually, things get worse. You get hurt, you get injured, so on and so forth. At the end of that station, that is overtraining. True physiological overtraining is very rare. It tends to take weeks, if not months, to recover from. This is not, you're not overtrained if you're like, oh, I had to take Saturday off. I feel way better today. that's not overtrained. Overtrained is I couldn't exercise for two months and then I finally started feeling better.

So it's really uncommon. It does happen. Uncommon. Before that, you get into what's called non-functional overreaching. So you're overreaching, you're pushing your body past where it should do and you did it so much that when you actually recovered,

you didn't get any positive adaptations. It was not functional. It didn't produce a benefit. So if you were to go, this in the spectrum, right now if you were not to go train, we got done, we would go lift. Our acute performance would be worse because we're tired. Okay, great. But then we rest and we come back tomorrow, next day, our performance is better. If we keep doing that, though, we keep training and we don't give ourselves enough time to recover, we'll eventually go down and performance,

down in performance, and then if we take some time to recover, we should have this super compensation. that would be a situation in which we overreached, but it was functional because it produced a benefit, produced performance enhancement, more mitochondria, more muscle, you know, fill in the blank for whatever you want. So we have functional overreaching. That's what we're after.

It was functional. We have non-functional. You kept going. You either trained too much. You under-recovered or both. And then you had to take weeks off, typically days off or weeks off, and you got back to baseline.

And then overreaching is past. that. That's what we're really getting at. We want to spend as much time in functional overreaching as we can. And when we back out, we have, again, ideally a super compensation. You know, we got the adaptation we're looking for. If you really get into overtraining, it's hard to define because there's no marker of it. We actually have this really cool Philip Larson and his lab in Caroline's Institute has published a bunch of really cool papers. There's a handful of very specific mitochondrial markers that they've identified.

They can actually see overtraining happening before any other signal of them. There's like six or eight different metabolites they've got that they've published. It's really interesting stuff. I actually think they're onto something pretty smart there. But because of that, like this is one of the exercise science problems. Like what are the signs of true overtraining?

I don't know. You're tired. You're hungry. Maybe you're sleeping more. Maybe you're sleeping less. maybe you're not hungry. Like, it's kind of like everything. There's no this.

It is just like, well, we saw people that were overtrained, and then some of them had less energy, some of them had more. It's all over the board, right? There's no class, like there's, this classic literature on things like testosterone and cortisol ratio and cortisol DHA ratios, and there's lots of other little markers,

but there's no one specific biomarker or performance marker or subjective marker or sleep marker that is like the definitive, yes, you're diagnosed with overtraining. Like that doesn't exist. So it's a combination of all these things that we're looking at to try to determine whether or not somebody's in that spot or whether they're functionally overreached or non-functionally overreach. So it's a pretty messy situation, to be totally honest with you.

So we don't exactly know what we're doing. All that then are in the line saying, all right, how does somebody know? I don't know. Take a day off. Do you feel better? Yeah, I feel way better. Okay.

probably functionally overreach or non-functionally overreach. That's good. Good position to be in. Took a week off. Still feel terrible. Okay. Now we might need to deploy some more aggressive solutions because you may have actually pushed way past that limit.

So that is really the best way to think about overall overtraining. What happens to someone's hormones, like testosterone, for example, when they're in non-functional overtraining? So generally what's going to happen along that entire cascade? all that, you're going to be less anabolic. Sorry, I got a non-functional overreaching. Yeah, yeah, no, I got you. It's a customer.

You're going to be, okay, so you're going to... So you're going to start off and things get worse. Testosterone will go down. If you stay there, if you're not getting back into the functional overreaching. Yeah, like, so let's just say we start, we're not working out. We haven't trained in a month. And then we pick it up again. You and I, we get after it and we're going.

The first couple of weeks, we might see a reduction in basal testosterone. we've overloaded the system a little bit. Things might get worse, right? Your physical performance might get worse. Fatigue is setting in. This is a stressor. This is actually good. This is why you wouldn't want to come in

and give yourself an anti-inflammatory. We wouldn't want to come in and give yourself, like you're actually trying to induce adaptation here. And so when you see markers that look like they're bad, this is just a signal that says you're overloaded right now. Resting heart rate might go up. HRV goes down. That's okay.

This is the offseason for our athletes. We expect these things to happen at the beginning of the off season. We just start training again. Normal. If we continue past that, or sorry, what's up? If you were there were to stop and you were to start recovering more, then you'll see testosterone come right back up. Potentially, well, most likely not go back any higher,

but it'll come right back up and performance will go higher. So like an acute, and I'm defining acute as like a couple of days or a couple of weeks, of something like testosterone going down early in a training phase, it's very normal. It might stay the same, but it might come down a little bit. And if it does come down a little bit, I'm not stopping training, I'm not backing off,

unless we're seeing signs of like extreme fatigue or pain or whatever. That little bit of like short-term, what looks like a negative thing, is not. It's a normal physiological response. If we were to keep going, though, we didn't bring you out of that, and then we got into something like non-functional overreaching, then the testosterone is still going to be down or potentially lower,

but then you'll start seeing the things of, now my performance has been down. It's been down for three weeks. It's been down for five weeks. It's not coming back up. Okay. Sleep issues, hunger issues, like motivation issues.

You continue to go and you get into true overtraining. Now almost surely anabolic hormones are down. The few studies directly on actual overtraining suggested that something like a testosterone recovery, might take a while. It can really struggle to come back. Typically, when somebody's like a little bit overreached, even if their testosterone is down, a couple of days off, it flies right back up. It's not really a compromised endological system there. It's just an acute fatigue. What about in women? Is it? Same thing. Obviously, testosterone total amount is lower.

Right. But same exact curve, basically. Okay. So most people probably aren't, I mean, there's athletes that might be, you know, consistently in non-functional overreaching, especially if they're, yeah, they keep that vicious cycle of they're trying to train more to get better and they don't recover or they don't allow for enough recovery. I'd say we've seen it more non-athletes than athletes. Oh, really? Yeah, way more. Because an athlete's generally pretty in tuned. And they're like, oh, I don't want to do this or whatever, right? You'll get feedback from them. It's oftentimes the hard-charging CEOs. This is like, I'm burning the bridge. I'm, I'm on oftentimes a lot of stimulants or other things.

I'm running a company. I'm doing this. I'm traveling a bunch. And then, oh, yeah, I do. All I do is high-intensity exercise training. And then because of that, I'm on a lot of stimulants, like I said. And then, oh, yeah, then my sleep's not great. It's inconsistent.

I'm in different time zones. I don't see my kid. It's that whole thing that goes, whew. Allostatic load just gets through the roof and there's no payback. That's the people we've seen more in the non-functional overreaching. And then they wonder why they're plateaued. Yeah. They're not getting anyone.

I only, like, there's a few times while I get, like, like, okay, I got to just not work out today because I just wake up and I feel tired. Yep. How much do, do, when you're on training days, when you're working out hard, do you require more sleep? That's actually, we don't, okay, I'm laughing here because that makes intuitive sense, right? and we have a number, we work with, I have a company, absolute rest,

and we have the most famous, you would know the name, sleep scientists in the world, right, the most published ones. I've asked that question so many times. Nobody has a direct answer. It makes sense, right?

I burn more calories today. I should sleep more. There's no compelling scientific evidence to suggest that caloric expenditure is directly tied to minutes of sleep needed. That said, like Jeffrey Jermmer has done to doing this for 30 years he's like there is like he's saying I'm telling you clinically that happens so I'm like very much laughing when you say that because

I'm like man I know what the science says on that but my experience is different and Jeff is like no the higher output sports need more sleep high volume people need more sleep people that are like professional athletes but they don't have a lot of caloric expenditure don't seem to need as much sleep I defer to Jeff on this one I'm like I I think he's actually right. I think they're the same. So it's very funny question. But is that like true on a day-to-day basis?

I don't think so. I don't think just because you train really hard today, you have to have more sleep tomorrow. I think on average over weeks, it might probably line up. But that's the best we can answer it. Because you know the opposite is true, right? If you're not getting enough sleep,

then it's going to affect your performance. It's going to affect your adaptations, I mean, everything, right? There is nothing we can do to enhance performance more than sleep. So there's no supplement. There's nothing that's even close. Right. So sleep is like the best, I mean, and it's part of the recovery, right? Again, recovery is so important for performance. When you ask about recover earlier, that's our first step. How does, how does a person know if they are really getting enough sleep? Because as you mentioned, all these sleep trackers and this and that and I got, you know, I'm clearly very biased here. Like this is what my company does at a very

high level, right? So I have a vested interest in a different answer here than probably most. But we spent a lot of time. I've been fortunate to work with many of the highest paid athletes in the world where we had unlimited funds to do anything. And we know at the same time sleep is so critically important. But the best thing we could do is send them in like a sleep clinic or a consumer wearable. And it was like killing me. I'm like, how is there not better sleep solutions than these? That's why we went and built absolute rest. how do we know if it's enough? We do it differently.

We actually have a bunch of direct measures of follow-up cognitive and physical performance. So we determine high-quality sleep as a function of how are you actually performing. So that is a different answer for everybody. It can be a time domain. It can be... There's actually a...

One of the markers we use is actually called Sleep Quality Index. It's FDA approved. Tons of evidence behind it. That metric alone is an okay single number if you want to use it, but that has a lot of validation behind it. We start there,

but like I said, sometimes it is a numbers game. It is a total amount of hours. Past that, it's way more interesting stuff than sleep staging. Sleep staging is like not a good way at all to think about sleep quality. More interesting are things like fragmentation,

sleep stability, sleep range. The amount of time you send in those arbitrary sleep stages varies wildly by cognitive of demand. Your body is not asked to do the same things on every day, so it's not going to have the same sleep architecture every day. So the way that we define high-quality sleep, completely different.

What we are working on right now, actually, is direct testing of next-day cognitive function. That's how we backfill sleep quality and sleep timing. And so we want to actually develop methodologies in which we're like, we'll actually test a whole bunch of different cognitive functions, and we can determine what is actually effective for you based on your actual functionality rather than an arbitrary like set of numbers. If that is like, what the hell is he talking about? Back all the way up and just say, how do you define the quality sleep for you? How is your daytime function? That is your thing. Are you fatigued? Are you sleepy throughout the day? Everyone's going to be somewhat sleepy,

particularly in the afternoon, right? But is it detrimental to your performance? How are you performing cognitively? How are you performing physically? Right. And then how much strain are you on If you're happy with all those things, then I would say you have good sleep quality. We don't have to get any piece of technology past that. If you're failing or we're like slightly suboptim in one of those areas, then we might have to do some tinkering, I have to do some follow-up. But if you're like, I wake up, I'm a little bit tired in the morning, but like, that's normal. Yeah, like I have a coffee and then I feel fine, a little bit tired in the afternoon,

but I train, I feel good. You probably sleep pretty good. That's a pretty good marker. If it's not that, let's talk. But other than that, you don't need to go out and get yourself tested. That's kind of what I feel. I feel like all those things, like how you feel. I used to do all the sleep tracking and, you know, or ring.

And I do have an innate sleep bed, which tracks my sleep as well. And the only time I use it, I mean, I use the cooling part. But the only time I look at my data is if I'm like, I go out with friends. And I'm like, I just, I know I got like, you know, six hours. sleep or somebody. I'm just like curious, you know. I feel it like the next day too. Yeah, yeah. Then it's like, that's when I use it. But you know, it measures my resting heart rate too. I'll look at that. Sure. It's not as probably as good as wearing the aura ring, but yeah. I think that there's a lot of benefit in calibration, in awareness, in accountability, right? So I actually

don't even care which tracker you use or the accuracy. Because for those three things, it's great. Here's examples. Some people have no idea how they're sleeping. Like, oh, yeah, yeah, I sleep six hours and I, I sleep five hours a night. And you look and you're like, you sleep eight hours and I. Like you've no idea what good, so a tracker, accurate or not, it's good for accountability.

When people know they're being watched, they make better decisions, right? It's good for awareness. So pick your poison. I have multiple eight sleeps actually at my house. They're great. I love them. Awesome. Use that.

Use whatever you want to do. if you're actually trying to get into the nitty-gritty of sleep details, then like you need to take an appropriate look and an appropriate set of technologies, not those ones. But if you don't care about that, there's tons of benefits from people just like getting somewhat aware and being held kind of accountable.

People generally make better decisions, especially, again, the folks that we work with where they know we're going to look. They know someone's going to be like, what did you do? And they have to answer that question. They just tend to make slightly better. decisions. What are some of the highest impact behaviors, like adjustments to improve overall sleep

quality? I mean, I heard you talking about hydration in for hours and learned a lot. As I talk about everything. Yeah, I learned a lot. But what I really, what I realized, you know, I like to drink hot tea, especially in the wintertime, like in the evening. Yep. Herbal tea. And it is just detrimental to my sleep because I'll have to wake up and pee once or twice if it's like twice is like the worst but um I've been convinced that I have to like starve myself of water before I go to bed yeah like hours like you know like in the three hours before bed it's it's water fasting like little little bits of water and then I can make it through the night without getting up once and it's amazing so I'd love to know I mean there's a lot of

sleep hygiene and of course you can talk about that but like some of the high impact behaviors maybe things that people don't realize yeah you know all the big stuff i'll skip past it okay you got it all cold dark you know blah blah past that hydration is one of them my expectation is for people to wake up at most once per night i would like to get you to zero it's not always realistic past once per night now we have something to fix for most people if you're causing the damage by drinking too much water at night, then let's stop that. I drink tea pretty much right before bed at night. Generally, I'm okay with it.

If it's not, then then back it off. And if that means you have to go back to three hours, then that's what you got to have the tea at 4 o'clock in the afternoon, I guess. I don't know. Have it back there. Okay, no problem there. Other stuff that people generally don't think about a couple of things.

Fatigue and falling asleep at night does not necessarily equate to down regulation. So we have something called the wind down index. I have a whole bunch of metrics we can look at. This is very common for the person who wakes up at two or three in the morning, and either that happens all the time, or when they wake up at two or three in the morning, they can't get back to sleep. Really strongly tied to lack of wind down index. And so what does that mean?

Just like with your kid, you probably have a 60 to 90-minute routine that that person goes through, and you don't even realize it. But that is really critically important to getting you to land in the right spot. your routine is probably 15 minutes, right? Not yours, but you know what I mean. And so having a more appropriate game plan of what that is, it doesn't mean it have to avoid light,

doesn't mean you have to avoid TV, doesn't mean you have to sleep with your phone in a different room. You can do all those things. You don't have to. We have tremendous high resilient sleepers that do all those things. But it is about a consistent routine, number one. Just try to do the same thing as often as you possibly can. We'll work out switching out behaviors a little bit later.

That's another one. ventilation in the room is critically important. People don't pay attention to this. One of the biggest reasons people wake up around the night is because they can't breathe through their nose. One of the biggest reasons you can't breathe through their nose is dander, pollen, allergens, something like that, start to blog it up. Whether that's completely blocked or not, but then you open up and you start mouth breathing.

Mouth breathing then means your tongue is a bigger issue, as well as your mouth can get dehydrated or get dry, rather, and you have a little bit of a dry mouth, and you need to have a drink of water at night. these things can happen. This will wake people up a ton. You want to make sure that you have proper ventilation in your room. One of the things that also happens in this is CO2. CO2 levels rise above 900 parts per million.

This will significantly and dramatically affect everything from sleep onset, sleep quality, next day perceived fatigue, next day arithmetic ability. CO2 getting too high in a room can happen because your doors and windows are all closed. If you have multiple bodies, you and your partner, your dog is in there, all of you are now kicking out CO2 into the room, right? You're exhaling. If that room is small and again, lack of ventilation, that number starts to rise. If you are particularly sensitive to CO2 as well, which many people are, then that kicks

off that entire cascade. You get pushed way more into sympathetic drive. And again, the biggest issue is you will see a subjective and objective, massive change in fatigue and energy and cognitive function the next day. people rarely think talk about CO2 concentrations in your room this is a classic case of like I do all the things I've listened to Matt Walker like I do all of it and I still suck at sleep you start thinking about what's going on in your physical environment okay so CO2 monitor I have one so getting a CO2 monitor what's the number 900 parts per million 900 so you don't want to be above that yep you will see typically um 1,200 1,300 in people like really consistently, that's not that bad.

Most of the problems happen at like 2,000, 2,500, 3,000. So if you're freaking out, you're like, oh my God, Annie said 900 and I'm at 1,000. Don't worry about it. So what do you do to improve your airflow? I mean, just open a window? Okay, you have tons of combinations of things you can do here on both ends of spectrum. Number one, you can actually just become more resilient to CO2. So if you work on your CO2 tolerance, this will help, especially if you're CO2 intolerant.

Outside of that, lower the amount in the room. If you can open up windows at night, that's great. If you can have less bodies in your room, that's great. Those two things are generally not very much of an option for people. Awesome. Can you get high ventilation in that room before you go to bed? Have your doors and windows open. Get that number down.

When I used to live here in L.A., our house was probably, I don't know, 2,400 square feet, multiple level. And we're in L.A., so our doors and windows are closed because air quality is just, it is what it is here. it would not be uncommon for us to just by the time it's like seven o'clock at night have 2,200 parts per million. Like, you're like, oh my gosh, it's up there. And it would take us hours to open up windows and just like let the CO2 clear in the house, right?

You're talking about four humans, two dogs. And even in a pretty big place, that fills up pretty fast. So can you start that process earlier? As earlier in the day, can you open up windows in the house? If not, at least open up your sleeping space so that airflow can, get in and out of that. If you need to turn a physical fan on to do that, that's another option. And it will drop pretty fast by doing that. Okay. What about people's nose that are closing up? I mean, you know, if you have a lot of pollen, let's say you have pet dander. I mean, do you

do you have to get these allergen pillowcases? Like, how do you stop your nose from closing up? Okay, so a bunch of different things there as well. One, same exact answer. Try to get much of that cleared out of there as possible before the nighttime starts right now you'll particularly see this with people who are like my nose is fine throughout the day and I just wake up at night it only happens at night only happens in my bedroom when you lay down or part of that's gravity part of that's physically gravity right like you're laying up here or you're standing up here all right and you go backwards and it's going to sit in there like part of is that so number one do all the things I just talked about cleaning the air out of there if you want to

get an air filter and then specifically put it in or above or around your bedroom that is a great option. So you can go there as a next step. Third step is you can just use Flonase. You can use a very simple nasal dilator. So whether this is actually like a nose strip that you can put on, use a bunch of different companies for this, or an actual like injection, right? Again, like a flonaise and you can squirder in your nose before bed, dilate your nose. You can stop having problems that way. So there's are three or four different things you can try. We've used and we'll use all those things pretty consistently. And they are all pretty beneficial and they work pretty well. There's some amount of just like morning gunk you'll have. That's normal. That's okay. But if this is

consistently waking up with dry mouth and nose completely clogged, then I would do all those steps. Pass that. Then you've got to really start thinking about special pillow cases and different solutions like that. But those are more expensive. The rest of the stuff I mentioned is, you know, cheaper. So if you were, if you were going to, let's say, have the three, like, highest impact behavior changes to improve sleep. Yeah, I'd say, like, have a consistent approach. Timing, system, whatever you want to be. Routine, number one. And I want to be really clear, I know I'm running out, but that doesn't mean, like, 45 minutes of breathwork and meditation.

Like, that's not the routine. The routine can just simply be, I do the dishes, and then I brush my teeth, and then I check my, like, that is fine for the routine. It doesn't have to be this big, like, 90 minute, my phone's gone, and like, that's not what I'm referring to. Just do the same thing as much as you can in the same order and the same routine. Number two, make sure that your physical environment, past temperature, past sound, past light, like you're taking a caution to that. If you don't have a CO2 sensor or an environmental scanner, we send that out to everybody, so they always have those. Just open up the ventilation anyways.

So you can do those steps regardless of the testing. So that would be my second biggest one. Another one that I would maybe say pop off. That's abnormal. Yeah, honestly, like the wind down in the NICs is pretty popular. So making sure just because you're fatigued and you know you're going to fall asleep quickly, that you're still doing something to make sure that your parisynthetic system is actually turned on. that's a little bit different, right?

So we always say like, like turn on the off switch. We want to do. So whatever that takes for you to do it, some people that's reading, other people that's not. Like for me, like reading doesn't do it for me.

Breathwork will not do it for me. I actually have to have something that physically triggers my brain of like, gives me permission to let go for the day. That means I'm doing something that is so unproductive I'm probably

like reading some blog that four other people read about what the Seattle Seahawks did with their 12 string wide receiver like something that is like

clearly not work related for me that is what I feel like is a waste of time that is just a trigger for me to go yeah it's your time you don't have to be productive

you don't have to answer anybody like all the input everybody wants something from you all day your space so I'm doing that I'm watching something non

like inspiring or motivational on TV whatever the case is right like that's hunting videos for me that's like outdoor stuff I'm like watching cool things like that it makes me super happy and I check out that doesn't work for Natasha like doesn't work for it all

whatever it is that cues you that your day's over you give your brain permission to be done for the day that's it so that would be my three like big areas that people can try I love it it's funny that's um I do those things and I didn't really the routine, it really is when I break my routine, I have a hard time falling asleep. Yeah.

And my routine is like a simple thing, you know, where it's like, you know, I brush my teeth, I wash my face. And then I read the non, a completely non-work related thing as well. It's got to be like, like I never get on Instagram. I don't get on social media. Like I can't, it's too work. It's work for me. It's hard. It's hard. So, yeah, it's got to be like completely separate from work. What do you like to read? And relaxing music?

It depends. Like books or articles? No, no. So I do like, I haven't been reading books at night in a while. Now I read them during the day just because the light component. Yeah. But no, I'll just read like new stuff or on your phone. On my phone.

Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. Yeah. It oftentimes will be, I will read like some cool science stuff. But it's not necessarily like health. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

So I don't feel like it's, you know, my work. Yeah, yeah, technology or whatever other fun stuff. Relaxing music. We play, I like, you hear some relaxing music. That also helps. Yeah, yeah. But, no, this has been super awesome, Andy. I really appreciate you coming out.

And let's talk about, you've got this podcast perform. You talk all about, I mean, it's you and also other guests you have on that are experts. Yeah, it's seasonal. So we did 10 episodes The first season And then we took I don't know Five or six months off

And then Season two was out now No guest Season one Just me Going nuts And then we brought in some guests This season

And we're actually gonna finish up filming tomorrow We'll be done for the season We'll take a little break And then another set We'll come out later in the fall So I can't do the I don't know how you all do it

Like the consistent podcast It's a Poof It takes my soul in a good way. Yeah, it's super fun. I appreciate you bringing that up. It's, you know, like perform is name and game. Like, we want to help people perform at their best.

Whatever that means to them. Like, however that means to them. So, yeah, enjoy it, love it. Yeah, thanks for bringing up. Yeah. You've got a couple other things you mentioned throughout the podcast too. Yeah. Obviously, we're building that Human Performance Center in Dallas,

which is really awesome. I can't wait to share with people some of the technology that we've built inside that thing. It doesn't exist anywhere else in the world. It's like super exciting. The ability for us to conduct research out of there to do studies that I've wanted to do for decades, you know, it's like, well, that's just not feasible anymore. The team down there at Parker has removed those barriers. They're like, make it world class and we're making it world class.

We're doing a study right now. Actually, they're actively recruiting for. Maybe I can pitch that if that's cool with you. we're uh my my grad student zoe she came with me from california and federica they're running a study where we're looking at sleep across the menstrual cycle stunning enough there's not a lot of research on this and the the stuff that's been done is questionnaires and maybe like a PSG like two days here two days there two days at the end of the cycle or something so there's still a bunch of unresolved questions about what actually happens to sleep quality throughout the menstrual cycle and so we're actively

recruiting. So if you are female and you are interested in this, I would like love to have you involved in our study. You can be anywhere. You don't have to be in Dallas. So it's open. We're recruiting. We're doing an open protocol. You get a bunch of stuff with it. But we're going to run

full clinical grade FDA approved sleep analysis every night throughout the entire cycle. So we'll do cycle mapping. We'll do blood. We'll do urine. We do a bunch of cognitive stuff. And so we're really going to see like is sleep changing in people with a normal menstrual cycle across the window.

What age range? 18 to 35. So younger, healthier, you know, all that stuff. We really wanted to do it actually. Matt was trying to get us to do us in menopause stuff. And I was like, I want to, but I got to answer one question, like, at a time rather than two at a time. So it's just cool stuff like that that we can do because of some of the technology we have. But yeah, we're actively recruiting.

That's our first, like, big study out of there. And then we got a bunch of other ones. but yeah, the performance center should be open next year, hopefully. That's exciting. And people come down and check it out. It'll be open to the public too. Yeah, I'm heading to Dallas in April. I'm sure I'll be back again, but I'll drop you a line when I head back there.

Yeah, let us know. I'm super excited about that. Yeah. And grad students too, if you want to come to grad school. We have an online program. So we can get a master's and strength and performance with me that's fully virtual. Or you can come in person and then work in our lab. We have a lot of projects, so welcome all the bodies.

So bring it. Every time I said that people are like, oh, my God, you're inbox. I'm like, I don't care. Bring them all. That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, next time I'd love to, we talk a lot about nutrition and supplements and recovery. I'd love to get into strength training and protocols and resistance training, strength training,

hypertrophy training. Yeah. You know, I got to tell you something before you leave and get out of here. I'm so proud of you. the fact that you post those strength training videos, and I know what happens in the comment section to that. Like it's everything from me now to be like, fucking like hammering everybody on there.

But it is really hard for people to post stuff like that. And you know what's going to happen. But you're very courageous in putting that stuff up there. I think that helps a lot of women. I think it's dope as fuck. I think it's the coolest thing. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah. No, I mean, I'm, you know, starting out. and I think it's great and want to encourage other women too. Yeah, love it. Awesome. Thank you so much, Andy. It's been a real pleasure having you on. Appreciate it.

Can't wait. Can't wait to chat again, and it's been so long coming. A big thank you to Dr. Andy Galpin for coming on the podcast, and thank you for listening. If you're aiming to enhance your VO2 Max or build strength, we've compiled a comprehensive training guide that integrates insights from leading experts featured on the Found My Fitness podcast. This resource offers evidence-based protocols to optimize your training. outcomes. You can access this free guide at how to train guide.com. Once again, that's how to train guide.com. If you find value in the rigorous evidence-based content provided on this podcast and want to

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