Fourth Reich Archaeology - #102 - She Harvey Oswald, Part Eight

Episode Date: June 26, 2026

We are back to our series-within-a-series on the two would-be female assassins who set their sites on Gerald Ford, and we are now getting deep into the second of these–the real “She Harvey Oswald,” Sara Jane Moore (aka Sara Jane Kahn, aka Sally Moore aka Sara Jane Kahn Anderson, just to name a few of her many aliases). Last time, we set up Moore’s Fourth Reich roots with her father’s work in the military industrial complex for DuPont chemical in West Virginia’s chemical valley. This week, we examine Sara Jane Kahn’s early life and explore how she might have gotten on the radar of deep-state forces from a young age.We track the parallels between Sara Jane and Lee Harvey Oswald, just a few years her junior. Like Oswald, Sara Jane joined the Civil Air Patrol as a teen. We do a deep dive on the CAP, both its national founding and the West Virginia wing. Also like Oswald, Sara Jane joined the military almost right out of high school. She also married young, but that first of several marriages would not (like Oswald’s) last until death. Her marriage lasted just long enough to spoil her chances at attending officers training school, but she was also medically disqualified due to a highly unusual condition: Sara Jane suffered from recurring fainting spells accompanied by bouts of amnesia.Since we pull out original research that has nary been reported elsewhere, we don’t want to give away too much right here in the episode description. Suffice it to say, this one is noided, it is deep, and it is weird. You won’t want to miss it.Patreon: www.patreon.com/fourthreicharchaeologyEmail: [e-mail]: @fourthreichpodCivil Air Patrol Promotional Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpcFA484PT0Mission Mind Control Report: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMH5WgGFxlc

The following passage is from an interview with Sarah Jane Moore conducted at the Federal Correctional Institution at Alderson, West Virginia, on March 24, 1979. A copy of the interview is on file with the podcasters. I thought the part about me. See, one of the things about being a spy, and I'm sure being a writer, and I think being a spy, being in the theater, being a writer, all have this person that stands aside. I think those are the professions in which that person becomes a trained observer. You consciously develop the trained observer in you that stands aside.

Certainly, and I was in the theater a little bit, you know, and you find yourself. something horrible is happening. Somebody is saying, ah! You find this part of you saying, oh, that's how you do. The writer, you know? Something won't be happening

and you will be conscious, conscious over here, storing it, or it settles a problem in something that you're writing, or that's, you know, reading a book. Ah, yes, that's what I meant. Putting it in your writers the style of the observer observing. So it was the observer in me that day saying,

shall we have at it again? People say, what are you doing? Are you mad? You really flipped out now. Or imperialism, as the slave system of the West is called, is not something that's just confined to England or France or the United States. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make.

It's one huge complex or combine. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. And this international power structure is used to suppress the masses of dark-skinned people all over the world and exploit them of their natural resources. We found no evidence of concern. of a conspiracy, foreign or domestic, the Warren Commission, the science. I'll never apologize for the United States of America, ever. I don't care what the facts are.

In 1945, we began to acquire information, which showed that there were two wars going. His job, he said, was to protect the Western way of life. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders the more easy victims of a big lie than a small, For example, we're to CIA. Now he has a model. He knows so long as a die. Freedom can never be secure. It usually takes a national crisis.

Freedom can never be secure. Pro Harbor. A lot of killers. We've got a lot of killers. Why you think our country's so innocent? This is a model. This is Fourth Reich Archaeology. I'm Dick.

And I'm Don. Welcome back to our show. Dear listener, we're so glad to have you here with us today. Just very quickly at the top of the hour, as we always do. I'd like to thank everyone for their continued support on Patreon. Thank you so much to everyone out there who has decided to give us a little bit of money to keep this program going. As you know, we are fully listener supported here at Fourth Reich Archaeology. I also want to say thank you to everyone who has written us over the past weeks and months and, dare I say, years at this point.

I am so glad that folks are writing in. We are doing our best to write back, and we promise that we will write back. And this is when I'd like to remind everybody else who has not written us to please do write us at Fourth Reich Pod. at gmail.com and catch us on social media at forthright rick pod on Twitter and Instagram. We are so glad to be back in our ongoing series within a series. She, Harvey Oswald, and we are focusing right up on

Sarah Jane, Sally Moore, the second of the two would-be assassins who in September of 1917. pointed their pistols at President Gerald R. Ford. Now, Sally, she actually pulled the trigger and the gun went bang. And as we've discussed before, as we'll talk about in this episode, as we'll talk about in future episode, Sarah Jane Moore really is the fascinating would-be assassin in this duo of would-be assassins. It's like not to knock on Squeaky, but she doesn't even hold a candle to the flame of the noided exploits of Sarah Jane Moore. And we are just so thrilled to be actually getting into it now with our focus on her.

In our first of these episodes, we started by sort of bridging the gap between the squeaky. era and the Sarah Jane Moore era and bridging the countercultural moment of the late 1960s to the paranoid violent time of the spooked up 70s, mid-70s. And we discussed our sources, in particular Jerry Speeler's biography of Sarah Jane Moore, housewife assassin, which although providing helpful information on our subject, as we said in our first episode, she fails to dig deep into the more noided areas of Sarah Jane Moore's life. And Jerry really obscures the bigger picture in boomer-lib politics and personal resentment. Because as we pointed out, I think we pointed out, Jerry, Jerry Spuehler and Sarah Jay Moore were friends at a time.

And then, you know, Sarah Jane Moore, after Jerry had told her about writing this book, and informed her that she'd be reaching out to those in her personal network. Sarah Jane Moore totally went dark on her. And so there is this personal resentment that does come out of the words of the page in Jerry's book. And in our first episode, we did a real deep dig into Sarah Jane's family background and the start of it all for her in West Virginia and Charleston, West Virginia. Virginia, where she was the daughter of a employee of DuPont Chemicals in the Chemical Valley, aka Cancer Valley.

And of course, we connected the dots with DuPont and how DuPont is a key player in not only the military industrial complex, but indeed in the collaborative nexus between U.S. corporations and Nazi Germany partnering up with IG Farben to help the ramp up of the Wehrmacht in the lead-up to World War II. So in that first episode, we really did do this juxtaposition of Squeaky against Sarah Jane Moore, but we also showed that like Squeakies, SJM, her family was firmly rooted in the military industrial complex because you'll remember Squeaky's dad was like, an employee of a government contractor in Southern California. And so there is this connection between the two. Yeah, I think that, you know, the listener should keep in mind that really when you go,

as the United States did in the wake of the Second World War, when you go for that brass ring of being the world. empire, of being the global hegemon, of being the thousand-year Reich, as the Nazis had sought to become, you are planting any number of seeds in the ground. And each one of these military-industrial complex installations that are scattered throughout the country that are too big to fail, that have been made too big to fail in the interests of empire, those are like little seed beds out of which plants the likes of Squeaky Frommi and Sarah Jane Moore can grow out of to rear their heads and make their impact on history or at least try. Now in this episode, we are going to get real

weird with it. We're going to pick up right where we left off. and we're going to follow Sarah Jane through her childhood into her young adulthood. And while I think we're covering just a short period in her life, it's a period of her life that has been scarcely covered and certainly not in the way that we're about to dig into. So what we set out to do here is to understand why we have dubbed Sarah Jane Moore, she Harvey Oswald. As we said, right, the series title, we've used it to cover both of the female assassins here, but really the title belongs to Sarah Jane Moore. And today we're going to start to find out why, because behind that facade, that veneer of middle class normalcy,

that marked her household, talked about how she had a three-piece suit wearing stern, German father Olaf Khan and the prim and perfectionist neighborhood mother, Ruth Moore, well, behind that facade, Sarah's upbringing was anything but normal, especially as she grows into her adolescence, her teenage years, and her young adulthood where really spooky things start to happen to her. So in this episode, we're going to follow Sarah Jane from her theater kid adolescence to her enthusiastic participation in the Civil Air Patrol as a teenager. Our real heads out there will certainly recognize the commonality there between Sarah Jane Moore and Lee Harvey Oswald,

both having participated in the Civil Air Patrol in their teens, to Sarah Jane Moore's subsequent enlistment in the Women's Army Corps. And throughout those years, she starts to show some signs of abnormal psychology that might be of interest to the mind control-obsessed central intelligence agency of the late 40s, early 50s. So please, listener, buckle in for this one because we're pulling out some new research materials. I think we mentioned the 1979 prison interview that we've gotten hold of that is grossly underreported in the stories out there on Sarah Jane Moore, including in Jerry Speeler's book. And we are going to dig into the lore here with our patented Fourth Reich archaeology wide frame lens, getting all of that Fourth Reich context that. you have come to depend on when you hit play on your podcast app of choice. So I think there's a lot to cover in this one without further ado. Let's get digging.

His work unprecedented psychiatry consisted of three areas which he called sleep therapy, psychic driving, and the ultimate depaturning. psychic driving so-called type of therapy he would give the patient intensive electric treatment in order to make the patient regress deeply become forgetful and then he would attempt to implant new ideas You can get people to do most anything with you, because you do not play in him. And by the time you get through and you go up and apologize and tell us, were you a spy? He says, yes, I was a spy.

I would say that most government agencies concerned with intelligence operations have been looking to hypnosis as a tool for a variety of purposes, one of which is to carry out and to execute certain intelligence. operations on a basis where they would not have to rely completely on some of their own emotional reactions. Actually, they're... It could if you consider that an act of killing someone under circumstances of war is murder. I think one has to define what that means. Under circumstances of peace.

Under circumstances of peace, it would be murdered. But is human behavior predictable? In this area, the CIA did make a significant breakthrough. A personality assessment system designed by the agency's chief psychologist John Gidegning. It comes close to being able to predict how humans will behave. You're asking whether an individual can be under hypnosis, influence, coerced, persuaded, shaped, to perform an anti-social act or a destructive act or an act of body. My ends will be yes.

Sarah Jane Moore was the second of six children born to Olaf and Ruth Khan. She had one older sister, Ruth Ann, who was about three years her senior and four younger brothers. The youngest was 11 years younger than Sarah Jane herself. Now, one of her little brothers died just five days after he was born due to birth defect. We'll never know, but there is certainly a non-zero chance that the chemical contamination in the area, owing to the facilities of DuPont and other polluting poison makers in the area, that may have been responsible for young Paul Kahn's premature death. So I think we sort of went into this in our last episode, but Ruth Moore Kahn, Sarah's mother,

she was like the neighborhood mom. She was a figure of sorts in her community. She was always hosting. She was mending clothes. And she was your sort of typical, the archetype of like the Betty homemaker. And she, you know, there are accounts of children or neighbors always talking about how there was always something to eat at Ruth's house. or they had always the nicest baked goods. There were even newspaper articles published in Charleston,

which announced the girls' birthday parties. Yeah, in fact, I think it's pretty funny, so maybe I'll just read it a little bit of this article from the Charleston Gazette of February 14, 1932. Headline, Ruth and Sarah Khan are guests at a party. Mrs. Olaf Khan entertained at her home in Woodward Court Wednesday afternoon with a birthday party in honor of her small daughters Ruthanne and Sarah Jane, aged four and two years. Guests were entertained by children's stories and games.

Refreshments in keeping with the Valentine season were served. And then it goes on. to list all of the guests at the party. So you see, this reminded me, and the reason why I wanted to read it, it reminded me quite a lot of actually Dorothy Gardner Ford. Right. Gerald Ford's mother, who was also kind of this perfectionist neighborhood mom, really into the status of being recognized as such.

And these are the types of newspaper articles. from way back in the day that were, you know, obviously a journalist wasn't like on the four-year-old birthday party beat, but rather certainly Mrs. Khan would have made the paper aware of this almost like an advertisement, like a society page type thing. And I think that that quest for notoriety is something that we just, want to put a bookmark on because it will follow Sarah Jane throughout her life. Totally. As with like status, right? And being somebody, being the person that is responsible for something big. Yep. And so Ruth was very much like the perfectionist homemaker and

Sarah Jane Moore's father, Olaf, also had sort of a prominent position within the DuPont company in Charleston and there was this, you know, perfectionist aura around that family. And the family had very high standards, especially for their daughters. And so from a young age, Sarah fell in line on that. And she actually really stood apart from the rest of her siblings. So like her older sister was a real church mouse. And her younger brothers were rambunctious. boys who were not trying to include Sarah in their games. And so Sarah was, she was sort of,

the way I look at her is like a point dexter type, right, but also a loner. She wasn't interested in going after boys or anything like that. She was very much into your academics and your extracurriculars. And so she took up violin and sewing and she became the leader in the Spanish club. And she excelled in school and she joined the theater club and she did all of these things that made her really stand out as an exceptional student and an exceptional young lady and when she did these things she always took you know took them very seriously and throughout the whole process it was it almost feels like she you know she knew from the beginning like she wasn't there to make any friends she was there to sort of stand out.

Yeah, and it's interesting. Another source that's pretty informative about Sarah Jane Moore is this documentary film about her that came out after we had begun, you know, preparing this series within a series, but just by coincidence, in honor of the 50th anniversary as well, I suppose, this documentary called Suburban Fury that we might have mentioned in the last episode as well. And she's interviewed extensively in that and talks about how in high school she was given the lead roles in the high school plays without investing too much effort on it from her perspective.

So this idea of being gifted as well of having sort of a natural talent, a natural, ability, especially for performance and for acting, is something that she certainly internalized as part of her own identity, her own self-identification. And what's interesting about the way that Jerry Spieler describes all of this is just how unsympathetic she is. I don't think that anything that we've said is particularly cast Sarah Jane as, like a bad kid or a bad apple, but Jerry is like, oh, she was attention seeking. She didn't have any friends because she was unlikable. And she talks about a 13th birthday party that Sarah Jane had where she forced her friends to listen to her perform a violin recital. And it's like, especially

considering the personality of her mother, it's very easy. easy to understand like a 13-year-old kid is trying to please her parents, is trying to fit in with this brood of children, high-achieving children of these very stern and perfectionist parents. It's like not a bad kid, just a kid who stands out. And it's interesting how the negative characterization of her, it reminds me at least of all of these psychiatrists and other sources, quote unquote, of information about young Lee Harvey Oswald,

likewise, really cast his childhood and his young personality in a similarly negative light and is part of this pattern that we see repeated over and over again of like retconning psychopathy onto adult quote unquote lone nuts who commit acts of political importance like assassinations or attempted assassinations to make it seem like this emerges from some problem with their personality that's intrinsic to their psychology and you know whether wittingly or not, Jerry Speeler participated in that process for Sarah Jane Moore, as did others who will certainly have occasion to talk about.

But I think, so the takeaways from this section of her life, from this segment of her life and this segment of the show, is that Sarah Jane came to age in her teenage years, early teenage years as someone who was sort of a square peg kind of a point to extra type really interested in her academics and the extracurriculars did not do the I don't want to say like she because it's it's not like she was gender non-conforming but she was just not participating in some of the more gender charged activities, right? Like she wasn't going after boys and she wasn't doing things that made her stand out as like the, um, girly girl. She was very much like into being, to standing out and I think

to, to showing that she's gifted and, and all of that. But the idea that, you know, Jerry puts out that she's like unlikable and all of that. I don't. think she was a loner because of that. For me, it's hard to think of someone actually being a star in a show in their in their theater club and being unlikable. So I don't think it really lines up well there and Jerry's telling. But I think the takeaway is that this is a person that is she's not in the category of like the average. She's doing things that many students would would look up to and think like this is someone that's like a almost a leader in our cohort. Yeah. And that is a perfect transition, I think, to the next extracurricular that she gets herself

into when she's still in high school. So in the waning days of World War II, while she is still a student while she's still living at home, Sarah Jane signed up for the Civil Air Patrol West Virginia Wing. Yes, to some people in this town, 7 o'clock Thursday night, in an ordinary week, every week is mighty important. For this is the time that the aviation-minded citizens of this community have set aside for their weekly Civil Air Patrol Squadron meetings as part of the National CAP program to help build American aviation.

Key element in this program is the training of American youth, boys and girls between the ages of 15 and 17, future citizens of the air age. For new members of the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Corps, the training usually begins with a bit of history. Have your attention, please. If it won't make you think we senior members of CAP are a bunch of museum pieces,

I'd like to tell you how CAP got started. getting into a little bit the background of the Civil Air Patrol because it certainly is not well understood. I don't know that it's like a household name other than maybe to JFK heads as something that Lee Harvey Oswald participated in where he met David Ferry as his wing commander. But to just zoom out on it a little bit, the CAP was founded on December 1st, 19th. 1941, so auspiciously just one week before the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, and it was created as a volunteer auxiliary force to support military preparedness on the American home front. So civil air patrol, right? This is not something that is going out on bombing raids overseas, but rather they were doing sort of surveillance and other. types of activities here domestically. And the idea for the Civil Air Patrol originated with a World War I aviator named Gil Rob Wilson, which is a pretty good name, I think. Oh, Gilrob. And Gilrob had

spent time in Germany in the 1930s, and he was alarmed at the rise of the Wehrmacht under Nazi leadership and the German rearmament that, you know, succeeded the collapse of the Versailles Treaty. And Gilrob came back to the U.S. and shared those concerns. He really chicken-littled that shit. And he was worried that another World War could just break out any day and we'd see the skies darkened with Nazi airplanes. And so he got with some other like-minded fellows. many of whom had also been pilots in World War I, people like New York mayor and airport namesake,

Fiorillo LaGuardia, as well as Army Air Force General Carl Spatz, and a Texas oilman whose name will also be familiar to JFK heads out there, talking about D. Harold Bird. And those fellas came up with this model for the Civil Civil Civil, Air Patrol, that would be a localized, almost a community organization, which could be replicated across the United States. And of course, just six days after the thing got off the ground, in the first instance, the demand shot way up for both the services of such an organization and for, you know, eager volunteers to help out. So, In addition to sort of army-aged men, many of whom were being recruited and drafted into the actual branches of the military, the CAP extended its recruitment efforts to young people who were not yet of military age. So it had what was called the cadet program for teens between ages 15 and 18.

and since Sarah Jane Moore didn't turn 15 until February of 1945, we are guessing that that is likely when she joined up because there is not specific records on it. We couldn't find any, there's none reported in the Jerry Speeler book or anywhere else that we've been able to find for that matter. But assuming that she signed up very near the end of, World War II. And the types of activities that the cadets got into were, you know, education, certainly, learning about military life, learning about the drills, the weapons, the radio signals,

and the parts of the aircraft that they had access to. And they even would help out with some of these patrol tasks like flying over borders, for example, and flying over waterways. And flying over water ways and looking out for, you know, German U-Boats that did make it all the way across into some East Coast harbors during World War II. So stuff like that would have been really exciting and would have been a venue for Sarah Jane to kind of flex her leadership qualities as well as her burgeoning patriotism that now, instead of just pleasing mom and dad, she had wing commanders to please as well. The CAB cadet course also covers a different kind of ABCs.

The basic and most valuable aspects of military life, military bearing and courtesy, and how to function effectively as a disciplined part of a tight-knit cooperative organization. Every summer brings another annual highlight of the cadet program, a two-week summer encampment at various Air Force bases throughout the country. Every cadet participates in this required activity, which supplements their year-round training with intensive practical experience. Cadets live in military quarters and observe strict military discipline. This goes for us girls, too. We live in the same type of barracks and our course of instruction covers just about the same ground.

We cadets see for ourselves how a United States Air Force Base operate. We observe and sometimes we even do some work in the base repair and maintenance shop. Expert Air Force personnel take time out to instruct us in various phases of aviation in which each base specializes. You can be sure we don't miss a trick because we want to learn everything we can. And everything is just what we get, even learning how the Air Force would handle a serious crash. The fun side of things isn't neglect. side of things isn't neglected either. There's time off for athletics and a pleasant round of supervised social activities.

Some of us sightseers are given the opportunity to take trips to nearby points of interest. I know one thing. By the time we cadets return home, we've had one of the fullest two weeks in our lives. Yes, cadets enjoy their activities, but they also enjoy their activities. But they also realize that their membership implies a serious responsibility to learn, to make the most of the opportunities given them by Civil Air Patrol and the United States Air Force. You want to talk a little bit about the West Virginia wing deck? Yeah, sure thing. But before I do, I want to point out, so like the CAP, it's still in the works today.

it's still around. And they do exactly, like you said, they do mostly the sort of educational training stuff, but then also things like surveillance and, or I should say, surveying and navigation and things like that. I recall most recently during like the Hawaii fires, the Civil Air Patrol was like responsible for surveying and figuring out what was going on and reporting. They are a, it's like a non-examination. nonprofit non-military. It's a civilian organization, but they do have ties to the military and specifically to the Air Force. And so there's a lot of coordination happening there. But as you mentioned, these are really like civilian outfits. And it's branch by branch and very regional. And so the branch in West Virginia, the branches, first of all, they're called wings. And they have a lot of autonomy and independent.

The one in West Virginia in 1942 was Hubert Stark. And Hubert Stark was in command in 1942 and had just taken the helm from Major David Giltonin, who had started the outfit. Now, Hubert Stark was a Wisconsin native who also flew planes in World War I after which he became a leading entrepreneur in commercial aviation. Among his other exploits, Stark worked in the late 1920s out of Miami, flying back and forth to Havana, Cuba. This was a little before the heyday of the mafia in Cuba,

which peaked under the Fulentio-Bartista regime, which came into power in like the 1930s. But it's an interesting tidbit nevertheless, about Stark's background. Now, remember, this was in the prohibition era in the U.S. So rum running was a highly lucrative enterprise that could well have attracted a flyboy like Hubert Stark. He was not working for the government at this time,

and it is not out of the question at all that this guy was running booze. Yeah, yeah. I think it's just funny that this is the guy who's, in command of Sarah Jane Moore, like kind of a mysterious guy, but also kind of a ne'er do well, like, because that business that he was working for in Miami eventually failed. And so in 1930, he relocated to West Virginia and bounced around a little bit, working as a flight instructor, a commercial pilot, and then co-founded another business. called Mountain State Air Service, which bought, sold, and repaired airplanes, and also

instructed pilots. It conducted aerial photography, and it was involved in transport. So this dude was like, this was the dude that was in charge of Sarah Jane Moore. Right. And he wasn't alone. And this is another interesting fact because one of the pilots that studied under him who learned how to fly from Hubert Stark was a woman, who he would eventually marry, a woman named Bula McCowne Stark. And Bula became one of these celebrity, at least in West Virginia, a celebrity flying ace. And so she would do these air shows and travel around and the people would look up to her. And this was the time, right, there's not TV, there's the radio and there's like newspapers. And in-person attractions and spectacles carried a great significance for communities and places like West Virginia.

Especially in this time where flight was a relatively new phenomenon and certainly, you know warfare like using airplanes for warfare that was a very exciting and new thing and beyond that things like aeronautics and all of that the um you know uh the aerobatics i should say of flying that was that was all new and cutting edge and exciting and such a marvel for people to see and there was a lot of attention on it right and this is where someone like jerry spieler will put that gloss of innocence and patriotism on it, right? It's like, well, this was something that everybody was doing at the time. And Sarah Jane's participation in CAP was innocent and patriotic. And many teenagers were calling, you know, heating the call, answering the call at the time.

And it was also an opportunity for them to be part of something exciting and new and a symbol of modern times, right? And this would be something that, can be hidden amongst all of, you know, Sarah Jane's academic and extracurricular zeal. And so if you're reading the housewife assassin, she was doing this as something that, you know, any number of teens were doing. But so we have an excerpt here about Sarah Jane, I think we should read from the housewife assassin. One of the few girls in the CAP, Sarah Jane, excelled in the program. She was quick to learn the instruments when the group was taken on an orientation flight in a Cessna 310. She may have had some initial familiarity with weapons.

Sarah Jane wore her uniform with pride. And I think that's all Jerry says about her participation in the CAP. Right. And we know that the CAP has a lot more suss tentacles into the parapolitical history of the 20th century than the abbreviated version that Jerry has given us. So, Don, why don't you take us there, right? Let's zoom back a little and get weird with it. Sure. So remember the name of D. Harold Bird, one of the original founders of the CAP.

So Bird was appointed the first head of the Texas wing of the CAP, which he supplied with his own aircraft. And of course, this goes back to kind of the role, the central role of aviation as a signifier in the United States of the interwar period. And I would also add, this is the time when Howard Hughes was game. in celebrity thanks to his avionautics and is a time when Charles Lindbergh was making the first transatlantic flight and becoming something of a global celebrity a global celebrity that like Gerald Ford was a spokesperson for the America First Committee as opposing the U.S. entry into World War II and, you know, Lindbergh, obviously, was very much pro-Nazi and pro-Hitler. And the whole circle sort of comes together, right?

Like the advancements in German avionics were not only a cause for fear from the Americans, but a cause for great admiration as well. So it's another one of these sort of sympathies between the third. and the fourth Reichs that we draw out throughout this series. Back to Harold Bird, I looked up an oral history interview that he gave when he was a little bit senile already. He was well into his 80s, and he was talking about how he used his perch in the CAP. He used that position in the CAP as wing commander to expand his business network.

to profiteer from the military liaisons that he was communicating with, and to pull government contracts. So you could imagine that somebody like Hubert Stark was looking to do the same thing in West Virginia. Remember, his businesses were also failing, and unlike birds, bird money came from oil, but he was expanding, he was prospering and getting into the military industrial complex. And Byrd's military connections ran quite deep. So we discussed in our episodes on the Black Ops, White Russians,

and on the General Dynamics episode of the Warren Commission Decided series, all of these Texas oil men and their right-wing politics, in the Cold War, these were guys who, you know, were, died in the wool white supremacist anti-communists. You know, they opposed desegregation as a communist plot. These were real ideological warriors in the Cold War fight. And, you know, they were deeply embedded in the military industrial complex. And of note, Harold Byrd, and this is where he'll be familiar to people who know about the JFK assassination, was the owner of the Texas School Book Depository where Lee Harvey Oswald worked and from which he allegedly sniped JFK.

So, you know, you can turn back to those episodes to get a little bit more color on that Texas oil milieu. but I think that it's relevant here because we are tracing these parallels between Sarah Jane Moore and Lee Harvey Oswald and just the phenomenon of the political assassin writ large. It bears mentioning that the CAP in which both of these youths were enrolled, well, it had these fingerprints. of the military intelligence, money, oil, business, industrial complex all over it. And anyone who knows about Lee Oswald knows that he was in the Civil Air Patrol. It was there that he met David Ferry. And David Ferry, again, just 30,000 foot view here, higher than the CAP planes could even fly because there's a lot to say about him. But among other things, you know, this is the guy who

was put in charge of the Louisiana installment that Oswald participated in. He was a pedophile. He used his CAP unit to groom boys. And he's also one of these weirdo spook types who believed that he was a hypnotist, who believed that he was a avant-garde cancer researcher, despite not having a medical license or degree. And, you know, he ultimately would play a lead role in Jim Garrison's prosecution because of his connections to both Oswald and to New Orleans mob boss, Carlos Marcello, and, of course, David Ferry. famously died before he could be called to the witness stand in that trial. But those aren't the only spooky connections to the CAP, are they?

They are not a lesser-known CIA personality who was also caught up in the anti-castro plots that evolved into the JFK hit. Another female aviator named Viola June Cobb. Also, an early woman aviator Cobb organized the CAP in Oklahoma City while she was majoring in drama in college. She dropped out of college after just two years at the same time the CIA was officially established and became a pilot going between U.S. and Mexico City. and she eventually became a major agent infiltrating Fidel Castro's administration, the intellectual scene in Mexico City, and even making trips to the Amazon rainforest.

Yeah, all of this story is covered in the book, A Woman I Know, by Mary Haversstick, and a big theme in that book, which despite any other methodological or informational critiques that might have with that book that are not the subject of this episode, it does tell this very interesting story of how June Cobb and another aviator named Jerry Cobb were likely sharing a covert identity or alias and that pattern in intelligence of creating sort of a legend for a covert agent is another aspect that has some resonance in the story of Sarah Jane Moore that we'll get into a little

bit later but all of these aspects of the CAP right it's you know we're not just doing this to fill the time and give historical context, there's a real point of sharing this information about the CAP. And to summarize, I think, one, we've established that the CAP was seen by military industrial types as a means to tighten the bonds between the war machine that was in rapid expansion at this time, at the, you know, during World War II and thereafter, and to tighten the bonds between that military machine and private industry. And so, you know, Harold Byrd's use of his CAP wing to profiteer Hubert Stark's use of his CAP wing to profiteer, you know, other more sinister uses like that of David Ferry to both profiteer.

and also, you know, defile young men, young boys. It's something that, I think, looking back, we see in a much more sinister light than appeared at the time. And two, given the involvement of all of these high-level spooks in the CAP, I think that we have adduced enough evidence to declare here that the CAP was very likely a recruiting ground or, you know, a pool from which to recruit talented, gifted young people into the ranks of the early Cold War, right? To really create a spook's spook, to really die somebody in the wool and put their mind

towards your ideological objectives in the way that the early CIA was trying to do, you know, you've got to get them young. And that's why so many CIA agents are multi-generational intelligence agents or assets or come from long military family histories and the like. And the other type of asset that we see recurring as we study the parapolitics of the 20th century, are these young, gifted people that are identified and scooped up at a young age to serve the interests of the deep state, the powers that be, whatever you want to call them. And so both of these characteristics of the CAP, I think, are something that we wanted to highlight

as we turn back to the slothropian narrative of our shab, she Harvey Oswald, Sarah Jane Moore, because in the middle of her service in the CAP, the first of many very weird things befalls her. This is from Jerry Spuehler's housewife assassin. One day, in the fall of 1946, when Sarah Jane was 16, she left home for school but never showed up. That evening she didn't return home. She hadn't left a note and she hadn't mentioned to anyone that she was going anywhere. Her parents were frantic. Her schoolmates were questioned along with teachers, drama tutors, and members of the Spanish club and of the CAP. No one knew of any school-related activities or possible relationships that would have called

her away. Ruth and Olaf mounted a full search, but they could find no sign of their daughter. Finally, they reported her disappearance to the police. The police could find no trace of her. Three days later, just as suddenly as she had disappeared, Sarah Jane returned. She looked exactly as she had when she left for school. Where had she been? She offered no explanation. She refused to talk to anyone about it. Ruth, thinking she might have been abducted and sexually assaulted, had her daughter examined by the family doctor who reported no signs of, quote, abuse. Sarah Jane was not injured, did not appear traumatized, and apparently had not been kidnapped. Eventually, Ruth chose to explain her child's disappearance as, quote, amnesia, and left it at that.

Sarah Jane remained silent. Sarah Jane resumed her life at school without word of explanation. Then, in a sudden show of independence, Sarah Jane announced that she would get a job so she could have her own money to do with as she pleased. And then it just goes on. It moves on. Yeah. So what's up with that?

That's pretty fucking weird, huh? Yeah, so pretty weird, pretty weird that she just, just sort of breezes by it. So if it didn't, if you hadn't put it together, listener, there is this episode in 1946 where Sarah Jane Moore just completely disappears for days. And in the only mainstream biography of Sarah Jane Moore, there is less than, what would you say, a page covering the incident. Yeah. And it's like pretty, pretty, hard to fill in the details of what happened. I think we'll come back to that and try as best we can to fill in the details. But just to put a finer point on it, like three days disappearance

in a small town. Like, yeah, Charleston is a big city for West Virginia standards in 1946. But this is not a major metropolitan area that we're talking about. You know, she lived in a neighborhood. She went to a high school. She is known about town and nobody knew where she had gone. Especially because, like, she keeps a pretty strict schedule, doesn't have any love interest, doesn't really have any friends that would, you know, take her away for a couple days. basically said she wasn't kidnapped. It didn't seem like she was sexually assaulted or abducted or anything like that. So what happened?

Yeah. And three days is a long time. Three days is a long time. Imagine like if you're a parent or if you have a little sibling or whatever. Like imagine they just disappear and nobody knows where they are for three whole days. and this is obviously like before the internet before even like tv was widely adopted in homes so it's pretty wild and again we'll come back to it but for now let's pick up the narrative and follow sarah jane through the rest of her high school education so you know as we said she

finished high school with high marks, with high achievement, high extracurricular activities, and she chose to enter nursing school in Charleston. But despite earning good grades there as well, and apparently doing well, she left after just one semester. And after she left, she joined, and maybe this was the reason why she left college in the first place, certainly it was related. It was jumping from one thing to another, but she enlisted in the Women's Army Corps or the Wax, as they were known, and moved to the Carlisle Barracks in central Pennsylvania.

And the Carlisle Barracks, for those of you unfamiliar with Pennsylvania geography, this is, I guess you could call it like south central Pennsylvania. It's east of Harrisburg, but well to the west of Pittsburgh, kind of in that mountainous area tucked away, you know, in between what was once the western frontier of the 13 colonies and the east coast. And I think that once again, you know, to perform our exes, excavation for you, the listener, we ought to take a quick aside on the Carlisle Barracks and their history, because once again, it has a lot to tell us about this Fourth Reich that we are

describing throughout this historical portion of our podcast. So you want to start it off, Dick? The barracks are part of the Army War College and the Carlisle base they sit on is the second oldest active military base in the United States dating all the way back to the French and Indian War with the earliest structures having been built in 1757. For several decades from 1879 until the United States' entry into World War I in 1918, the base housed the base, the base housed the base. Carlisle Indian Industrial School, the first off-reservation boarding school were kidnapped and orphaned native children were forcibly assimilated into American culture. The school's founder and longtime director, Colonel Henry Pratt, was known for his motto, Kill the Indian, Save the Man. Yeah, and this is where, like, Pratt and the Indian Industrial School in general, They offer this glimpse, this insight into the ideology and the mentality of the American Empire.

And they also, I think, offer some food for thought as to how we can distinguish the Fourth Reich from the Third Reich. because whereas the Nazis were really absolutist in their genocidal racism, in their belief in the inferiority and disposability of non-Aryans, and that includes not just the Jews, but also Slavs, the Roma, you know, disabled people, etc., etc. the Americans, you know, setting aside the genocidal Indian killers who made up the ranks of American power for generations, of course. But talking now about the likes of Colonel Henry Pratt, well, they sought to carry out extermination by another means, right? after the native populations had dwindled after the ravages of disease and slaughter, Pratt and his ilk came about to assimilate away the vestiges of Indian life under this

progressive banner of equality of all people. And Pratt self-identified with that progressive movement of the late 19th century, right, often associated with Teddy Roosevelt and, you know, that progressive movement, incidentally, as it were, wouldn't you know, coincided with the birth of American imperialism beyond North America, beyond the shores, right, in the form of the Spanish-American War of 1898 and the concomitant taking of Puerto Rico, Cuba, the Philippines, and Guam in that war of conquest. And so I think it's critical here to understand how the United States styled itself as a progressive, civilizing empire and declared the equality of all men, including its colonial subjects, and its, you know, survival.

of its genocidal territorial expansion across the North American continent and the sort of papering over of the hypocrisy there at the root of that, you know, and at the same time as committing these atrocities, it is purporting to be advancing civilization and saving its victims from their own cultural backwardness. Yeah, it's nuts. It's like saving the survivors of whatever damage it's doing by bringing them into the fold. And I think that is like a critical component of the next sort of the next permutation of this thing is that it was no longer necessarily about race, right? It's like anyone can be brought in under the system and even thrive as long as you assimilate, as long as you do things the way we. say they should be done because every other way is totally backwards and uncivilized. And it's still, you still see it today, too, with Trump and Vance and all their talk about, you know, legal immigrants versus importing the third world that has become a favorite.

You know, that, and I would say that that even tilts the dial back towards a more racialized point of view, but the notion that anybody can become an American still very much animates both left and right sides, you know, talking about in the U.S. Overton window, like on the Democrat-Republican spectrum here, as we've discussed in our geopolitics series. 100%. But let's get back on track. Back to military control. Sure enough, the way to smooth over this obvious hypocrisy is through good old-fashioned propaganda. And by the time World War II had ended, that became the focus of operations at Carlyle Barracks. In 1946, the Army Information School was founded there, followed by the School for Government of Occupied Areas, the Military

Police School, and the Army Security Agency School. This period of activity, is precisely when Sarah Jane Moore was stationed at Carlyle from January 21st, 1949, until at least April 1950. So let's just unpack the things that are going on at Carlyle. The Army Information School was the first dedicated educational institution to military propaganda. It would also later evolve into the Defense Information School attended by no less a Dave Fourth Reichsman, then Peter Thiel, puppet, and current vice president, J.D. Vance. My best guess is that this was the school that Sarah Jane was assigned to as well. There weren't any articles mentioning her whack service, and it's a topic she would later refuse to talk about.

It's not specified in Jerry's biography, and it's not otherwise reported. as far as we can tell, and indeed, as we'll get into in a little bit, her military records allegedly burned in a fire. So even those are gone to history. But searching for newspaper articles about the Wax and the Carlyle Barracks, the ones that I did find all described Wax who attended the Army Information School. And it also changed. jives with Sarah Jane's interest in acting, in communications, in performance, et cetera. So it, again, bears noting that when she gets into the army, she is drawn to and assigned to this propaganda school as something else to keep in mind.

But maybe we should do a little survey of the other schools that were going on there, is to get a sense of like exactly what this sort of Fourth Reich in construction was getting going at the Carlisle barracks. Yeah, let me do a couple of the easy ones and then you take over from there. So first off is that school for government of occupied areas and it's exactly what you think it is, right? It's exactly what it sounds like. It's a place for American military overseers to learn the ropes of, imperial occupation. At this time, of course, the occupying forces in Germany were working hand in glove with the good German Nazis to get a handle on how to ensure readiness and superiority

over the Soviets. And the occupying forces in Japan were rehabilitating some of the worst war criminals of the 20th century with similar goals vis-a-vis the Chinese communist. And then the next one, military police school, that's also pretty much self-explanatory. But I think we should next maybe spend a little time at the Army Security Agency School. Yeah. So the Army Security Agency School was housed at Carlyle from 1949 until 1951. And that coincides again with Sarah Jane's deployment to Carlyle. She didn't leave there until, I believe it was February or March of 1950. And so the Army Security Agency was a predecessor of the U.S. Army Intelligence and Security Command, known as InS.com.

And its current formation, that's, you know, 3.0 or 4.0 or whatever, is now called the U.S. Army Intelligence Center for Excellence. and that center is housed at Fort Wachuka, Arizona, and any Candice Owen listeners out there will recognize that name as the site where Candice alleges that Erica Kirk helped to plan Charlie Kirk's assassination. So, you know, without commenting on the veracity of whatever Candice is cooking up, in that beautiful brain of hers. It's interesting to note the continuity of this educational institution that has still such a mark on the paranoids in U.S. political discourse. Needless to say, right, it was a spy school.

And this is right at the birth of the CIA. So it was an important spy school on the military side of the line, right? CIA being civilian. And it conducted all kinds of training for the highly classified operations that the military and the CIA would jointly conduct in those early years of the Cold War. So we're talking signals intelligence or sigint as it's known. We're talking cryptography. We're talking radio codes. We're talking all of these forms of communications intelligence that were used both to spy on the enemies,

spy on our allies, and to disinform and misinform and misdirect about U.S. operations. themselves. So, you know, again, to call out the parallel with Lee Harvey Oswald, about eight years before Lee Oswald had learned radar systems and was operating them in highly classified military intelligence operations at Atsugi Naval Air Facility out there in Japan. Sarah Jane Moore was at Carlisle Barracks where the same skill set was being taught to young cadets just like herself. And, you know, she would have already had a background in some of these technologies from her experience in the CAP that we discussed. And, you know, while for men, I think there were firmer lines around assignments, the wax,

it seems from, you know, reading oral histories from wax and reading articles contemporaneous to that time about the wax that they had a little bit more of an organic presence on the base and were kind of mixing and matching. So, you know, it's not clear that she was enrolled in any classes of the security agency school, but it's also not impossible that she was. And in any event, you know, the fact that classified operations are being run out of this place at the time that she's there, I think is noteworthy. Well, let's talk about Sarah Jane and what she was doing at Wax. Let's talk about Wax in general. And so the Wax were largely tasked with the administrative duties. as well as some intelligence duties like radio operations, air traffic controls, and the like.

Sarah Jane began her service in January 1949, so it was after World War II had already ended and the Cold War had begun. You can bet that a go-getter like Sarah Jane was not going to satisfy herself by just riding desk duties. She was going to, just like with the rest of her life's pursuits, be a zealous soldier. And she even expressed a desire to attend Officer Candidate School, but she was disqualified from becoming an officer. One reason for this was because she got married to a Marine Staff Sergeant named Wallace E. Anderson in November 1949. Anderson was a native of Brainerd, Minnesota, the town immortalized in the Cohen Brothers movie Fargo. Well, I'm a police officer from up Brainerd, investigating some malfeasance. And I was just wondering if you'd had any new vehicles stolen off the lot in the past couple of weeks.

Brainerd? Yeah, yeah. Homer Paul Bunyan, Babe the Blue Ox. Babe the Blue Ox. Oddly, there was another Wallace E. Anderson, a bit older, who was an accomplished physicist, rose the ranks to a major general and became president of the Citadel Army College in South Carolina in the city of Charleston. The Wallace Anderson, who married S.J.M., however, apparently lived out his days in Brainerd, remarried in 1954 shortly after divorcing Sarah Jane, and fathering four children and eventually sporting a MAGA hat in some of the very creepy photos in his funeral slideshow, which we found online. We got to put some links on this.

Yeah, yeah. Maybe we'll do like an Instagram post or something or a Twitter post showing some of this stuff. It is very funny. Obviously, there are no traces, no identifiable. double traces of Sarah Jane Moore in Wally Anderson's funeral slideshow, but he did just pass away pretty recently. And yeah, it looks like he had your kind of average American marine life, gun enthusiast octogenarian

Trump supporter and you know dodged a bullet with getting separated from Sarah Jane Moore and we'll

pick up about that in a second I mean she for her part never even acknowledged having been married to this guy it was reported in Jerry Speeler's book, and it was reported in some local news reporting about Sarah Moore from the spring of 1950, which we're about to talk about now. But it is just really

interesting how these figures in her life don't really add anything to the historical record, either from the voice of Wally Anderson himself or from Sarah Moore in her own right, talking about him as, you know, presumably her first out of many husbands. She doesn't even acknowledge him as husband number one. And maybe there's a reason for that. But so she didn't, so she didn't really disqualify from being an officer and getting into officer candidate school just for getting married, right? What was, there was this other reason that I think we should get into now.

And it really, it can only be described as a spooky synchronicity. At least, at least that. So, yeah, this one is another one of these events in her life. So on March 8, 1950, Sarah Jane Moore, then of course Sarah Jane Con Anderson, was committed to the care of Walter Reed Army Hospital in Washington, D.C. And the reason why she was committed was because of a very strange medical affliction that she had been suffering from on the base. That affliction? Recurring, fainting spells.

So again, recount that back in 46, she had disappeared for three days, and chalked it up to amnesia, well, the whatever, maybe it's related, maybe not, but while she was on the base, she started having these fainting spells and they were so recurrent and so serious that she was admitted to the premier army hospital in the country, right?

Like she wasn't sent to the local VA, she wasn't sent, you know, to another local hospital. she was sent to Walter Reed. And I think that that bears some emphasis because it seems out of the ordinary to me. You know, on the way from Carlisle to Washington, D.C., you pass through the city of Philadelphia, one of the premier medical cities in the United States, a city very much associated with its hospitals and health care institutions. And yet, you know, Sarah Jane Moore, Sarah Jane, Khan Anderson, was taken all the way to Walter Reed. And there she was admitted on March 8th.

And we don't know anything about what was going on there. But about six weeks later, on April 24th, she apparently had gotten out of the hospital and was found unconscious on the sidewalk next to her. to the White House. And she did not have any identification on her, but inside the bodice of her dress were tucked several photographs of her. They didn't have her name written on them. They were just pictures of her. And she was first taken to a local hospital in D.C.,

And she was then taken back to Walter Reed. And here again, I think it bears reading from the news coverage of this incident. Talk about a legend being built up about this person, right? One out of however many millions of Americans then alive. And she is in the newspaper from age two all the way now till age 20. and on April 25th, the AP wire went out. Quote, Police today sought to learn the identity of an attractive blonde girl found unconscious near the White House last night.

The girl, about 18 years old, was at Gallinger Hospital where psychiatrists questioned her. They said she probably is suffering from amnesia. Hospital officials said she is very pleasant and cheerful, but that she can't remember her name or where she comes from. An examination failed to show any signs of injury. And then it continues, right? Over the next days, newspapers across the country, especially in D.C., Charleston, West Virginia, and Brainerd, Minnesota, Wally Anderson's hometown, featured stories naming the Amnesia Girl after she had been identified. And they named her. And they named her. her as 20-year-old Wack, Sarah Jane Con Anderson,

describing, among other things, how her husband rushed to her bedside when he was made aware of the news. And there's another article that was really interesting describing how when her mother placed a call to her from West Virginia, she didn't recognize her mother's voice, didn't remember her mother, and didn't know anything about, you know, her family.

And that episode two, that's pretty much where the documentary historical record tails off. And it's another incident that Sarah Moore was loath to discuss, even though it was re-reported in 1975 after she became nationally famous for, shooting at Gerald Ford, right? So you want to do this next one? Yeah, okay. So the wire service reported on the 1950 episode noting that the army said records in St. Louis indicated Sarah Jane Khan, who was born February 15, 1930, entered the service on January 21st, 1949. Other records on her, including when she separated from the service, were destroyed in a fire. So there you have it. Man. So we promised the fine folks tuning in. We promise that we have some all but lost history,

stuff that wasn't destroyed in a fire that we were going to provide them. Namely, that is some of this 1979 prison interview that we have got our hands on. But before we do that, let's just do a little recap of where we've landed here. So we have this youth who is gifted, who has excelled in both academics and in extracurriculars, who is very much into the U.S. military industrial propaganda machine through her service with the Civil Air Patrol. We also have some teenage disappearances. Well, I should say one teenage disappearance and one disappearance later in life where this young woman goes missing and is unaccounted for for several days and after her brief time in nursing school joins the whack and the information school

at the whack and really ramps up in the world of propaganda and then you have these feigning spells Yeah, I mean, as I look at it, and I think the passage of the 79 prison interview that we're about to read informs this take, but certainly she does fit the pattern, right? Gifted kid to military involvement to recruitment pipeline and the fact that she has these sort of psychological abnormality. that also distinguish her from the pack, talking about the fainting spells and about the recurring amnesia. It reminds me of another person from this time period, and I also want to just recall for the listener, because it may have been a long time since you listened to Jerry World Three, Bula, Bula, where we talked about Gerald Ford's, co-founding of the Harry Conover Modeling Agency and about Harry Conover's wife by the name of Candy Jones, who was herself, you know, deprogrammed later in life from having been a courier for the CIA,

where, you know, she was basically hypnotized and conditioned to have and take on a second personality where she's carrying messages and performing covert tasks under this alter ego of hers, and then going back to her career as a prominent model, including, it's worth noting, she modeled on the recruitment posters for the wax. So, you know, there's just this circle is so small around Jerry World that ties these different characters together and ties these different concepts together that it is certainly not beyond the realm of possibility that besides being just another lone nut that Sarah Jane Moore could have made herself known to the CIA spooked up shrinks whom we've talked about at such great

length here as a potential tool to be molded in their hands for their dastardly cold war deeds, which of course they would insist were not dastardly at all, but in the interests of saving the world from communism. Yes, that same beneficence that the Pratt Indian school imposed upon its pupils when it embraced the concept of kill the Indian, save the man. By the same token, you know, fast-forwarding that about 70 years into the Cold War era, it's kill the communist, save the man, and, you know, steam roll everything on the road to global capitalist hegemony under the red, white, and blue. So should we do this? Yeah, let's do it.

Briefings clearly? Probably. I could recall them, you know, because of one memorable trigger or another, probably. Any foggy areas, any time when the room went gray and just the guy's face was there? Well, no, you know, I think that you're moving over into an area in which there was some... The lawyer that one of you talked to, Peggy Gerardy Edwards, who sent you over to me, Peggy and another friend of mine felt strongly that at some point that I had been perhaps conditioned or something by the CIA, but this is not... There's a possibility, certainly, going back over my history from the early 50s through the current time, where there were two occasions which they would have had to have done that sort of thing. When were they?

I don't. I like to think that I'm... You do not like to think that anyone has ever intrans. into your mind that controlled anyone to that extent, you know, that I must now admit that I definitely was controlled. Definitely. I don't like the word brainwashed, but definitely that I was programmed and conditioned. Even this many years later in prison, it's even for the apparently brief time that I was a heavy agent, I am still conditioned and I react often in prison in the ways that I was conditioned by my training.

It takes, I don't know what they do, but they do it, and they don't make mistakes. And my mind's set now, of course. To me, the tragedy is that any association with the FBI is such anathema to the movement that they did not realize the tool they had captured. The CIA is smarter than that. You capture an opposing agency's agent, and you use them. Once the training is there, it's there. I mean, you've got to admit it, you know.

Damn it, they do it. So you mentioned that two times. There might have been an opportunity. What were you referring to? I was hospitalized one time at the Walter Reed Medical Center, and I had, there was another occasion in which I was not hospitalized, but one of the reasons I will have nothing to do with legal or illegal drugs, is that I did have an unfortunate experience.

No, I'm not sure if it was unfortunate. I did have an experience having to do with drugs at a time when I was associated with some people in the FBI, and it left me with a lifelong core to the extent that it took me a long time to learn to swallow my vitamin pills and to take my medication. What kind of drugs were these? These were illegal drugs, and I don't know what they were. What was the effect of them? Did they put you to sleep, wake you up? In my case, I'd have a period of amnesia. I can remember part of it, and the agents were with me and stayed with me.

You know, my last memory is of them. My next memory is several... In your bed? No, I was taken someplace. And your next memory? Well, my next memory is several days later in the hospital. Can you give me some idea of what period of time this was? I could give you exactly, but I will not.

How's that? As far as, are we talking about the 60s, the 70s? We're talking about the 50s. Oh, we're talking about the 50s. Now, this is different than the Walter Reed one? Oh, no, the Walter Reed was something... I don't think the Walter Reed was anything to do with it. I really do not.

I mean, you just, you know, I feel... I'm reasonably bright. I know the circumstance of that, perhaps better than anyone else. This is the one that came out in the press after you were arrested. I haven't the fuck. Do you realize, you know, everybody talks about the press, and I've seen almost nothing. You want to see the Walter Reed story? Oh, let's see the Walter Reed story. Everybody goes on, you know.

I've seen none of my television interviews. I apparently have some sort of presence on television because certainly my crime and my imprisonment and everything else is... This story was in the star. Ha, ha, ha, an informer. I love it. You know, one time they had me work for the ATF. I didn't even know who the ATF was, and it turns out that I was under investigation by the ATF, and one of the people was spying on me. And it came out that I was working for the ATF. I said, what's the ATF? I was in jail before I knew what the ATF, alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. I never heard of the ATF.

Tell me this about the whack with amnesia. I will not. I will not explain it. Why not? Oh, I think a lot of reasons. I think there are a lot of things that I have to find out, you know, for myself first. One of the things talking about in terms of records of my life appeared to have disappeared, records of my attendance at school, and I know they existed.

I mean, you transferred from UCLA to UC Berkeley. I transferred from another college to UCLA, I attended. You know, I went for one semester after I got of high school and found out that college is just like high school. I mean, I thought college was going to be a ball, and, you know, they wanted me to sit down at a desk, just like the desk's in high school. So I lasted one semester and quit, and then I would go back later and study what I wanted to. And then my husband finally said, go to school. Don't be an idiot. Get your degree.

You're going to be something. But, you know, you transfer. I wasn't interested in repeating courses. I had transcripts, and at one point I was really being honest with some other people. you know, and all of a sudden I realized that some of these things didn't. I mean, man, I shut up in a hurry, but, you know, the problem is, it's like I'm, I don't have any birth certificate. My school records have disappeared. There's a lot of, I don't exist.

When did you find this out? After I was arrested, I found this out. I have virtually disappeared. My feeling is that because I know what was happening to me at the end, and because of what the FBI was asking me, me to do. And because of what I went through, well, see, the way the CIA fits in this is International Telephone and Telegraph, which is CIA controlled. Well, I don't know if the CIA controls. Now I'm being really paranoid, but it has a close association with the Central Intelligence Agency.

They enjoy a special relationship with the Central Intelligence Agency. I think that had I not done what I did, that had I continued, as I was for another six months, I would have disappeared. They were going to give me a new identity, by the way. But paramount to giving you a new identity, I guess. You never think that the other side of that is to destroy the old identity. Anything else to add there, Dick? No, that's all I have for this week.

And I think this is a good spot for us to leave you. Until next time, I'm Dick and I'm Don saying farewell. And keep digging.