Fourth Reich Archaeology - The Big Con(gress) 3 - Side B

Episode Date: August 22, 2025

We know you’ve all been waiting patiently for Side B of the Big Con(gress) 3, and it’s finally here! As a reminder, this series reflects our ongoing exploration of that putrid cesspool on the Potomac, the United States Congress, and this episode is focused on the ongoing genocide in Palestine. With us again is Andrew Myslik, a former congressional staffer and our man in Washington.In Side B, Don refreshes the episode with a newly recorded intro segment that both fills in for the time-lag since Side A dropped and issues a warning against forgetting. The forces of forgetting would like to keep all of us, and all of you, distracted and unable to focus on any of the atrocities being carried out in our name with our money. We must resist that urge. Picking back up with the back end of Don’s and Andrew’s conversation, then, Andrew walks through the process whereby a meager number of members of Congress joined with Rashida, Cori Bush, and others to call for a ceasefire. We consider what it means that this issue divides not only “Democrats,” but even “Progressives” in Congress, as the lies have the upper hand on the truth by a longshot. Finally, we ruminate on the meaning of the recent right-wing embrace of anti-genocide rhetoric with the likes of Marjorie Taylor Greene taking the torch and expressing compassion for Palestinians in Gaza while calling for the torture and imprisonment of Latin Americans here in the U.S. The left cannot let these Nazis occupy the anti-genocide lane, but what can we do to stop them? Join us as we ponder this and many other questions.This episode is just as timely today as it was when recorded last month. Enjoy!

Colonialism or imperialism, as the slave system of the West is called, is not something that's just confined to England or France or the United States. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. So it's one huge complex or combine. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. And this international power structure is used to suppress the masses of dark-skinned people all over the world and exploit them of their natural resources. We found no evidence of a conspiracy, foreign or domestic, the Warren Commission of the science. I'll never apologize for the United States of America.

America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are. In 1945, we began to require information, which showed that there were two wars going. His job, he said, was to protect the Western way of life. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders the more easy victims of a big lie than a small one. For example, we're the CIA. Now, he has a mom. He knows so long this is a guy, afraid of we'd never be secure.

It usually takes a national crisis. Freedom can never be secure. Pearl Harbor. A lot of killers. We've got a lot of killers. Why you think our country's so innocent? We're not going to see a. I have.

Now, he has a model. This is coming. Archaeology. This is Fourth Reich. I'm Don. This week, we are going to bring you the second half of the conversation that I had with Friend of the Pod Andrew Meislich, who worked as a staffer for Rashida Talib in Congress for the first several years of her term in office, including, importantly, her time in office,

in office after and in the wake of October 7th, 2023. And in this second half, we really dig down on the details of how the Congress responded. Some of the cowardice among the Democratic caucus in the Congress and the total inflexibility of the political status quo despite the turning of the tide of public opinion against Israel's genocide and the U.S. support, therefore. And today, since this is, you know, about a month down the line since we recorded this, I don't know that anything has really changed, unfortunately on the ground. We still have the heinous crimes against humanity being carried out on a daily basis

against the Palestinian people in Gaza, in the West Bank. We have the murder of Palestinians by settlers, such as one of the creators of the Oscar-winning documentary, No other land was recently murdered by a settler who was released from prison despite a horrible history of violence and permitted to go out there and commit lynch mob violence and it is a reenactment of the Wild West on the West Bank. once again, raising the specter of genocide that the United States itself was built upon so many centuries ago with the exterminationist war of aggression on the native peoples of North America. But there are some, it's hard to even call it a silver lining. but at least some useful reactions to the horror.

For example, now the latest poll numbers show that some 60% of Americans have a disapproving view of Israel's actions in Gaza compared to just 32 with a positive. view and those are highs and lows respectively and perhaps even more noteworthy the recent polling from Reuters shows that 59% of Americans believe that Israel's campaign has been excessive and a U-Gov poll says 43% believe it's a genocide. On the one hand, this is depressing news because, after all, we've known that it's a genocide ever since the leaders of the Israeli regime have announced their genocidal intent to the world

well before the South African nation, and brought its case against Israel in the International Court of Justice, which has evidently had absolutely no impact whatsoever given the consensus among Western nations that it is more important to support Israel's right to commit genocide, lest the entire Western militarist, colonial and neo-colonial project be subject to scrutiny and, God forbid, accountability for its

centuries upon centuries of the crime of genocide upon the rest of the world. The other thing in recent events that I wanted to mention before getting back, back into my conversation with Andrew is the vote that took place actually within a few days after we had recorded this back last month. Now, perhaps people have even forgotten about it. But listener, we mustn't forget. We must resist the urge to forget thrust so forcefully upon us by the sensorial bombardment we receive through our little surveillance machines of different sizes and rectangular dimensions, we must resist the urge to forget.

And remember that approximately one month ago, there was a vote on yet another aid package to Israel in the United States Congress. You can't get much bipartisan. support for anything yet a year and a half into a genocide, almost two years in, you can still get bipartisan support for arming and funding that genocide. Go figure. Well, while that vote was being put out into the House of Representatives, there was an amendment proposed by Marjorie Taylor Green, the fact, representative from the state of Georgia. And what her amendment would have done was to remove funding for the Iron Dome missile defense system, among other weapons systems. And wouldn't you know it, a small handful of Democrats, and I mean a small handful, Rashida, Ilhan Omar,

and a couple more, I believe Al Green was one of them, Summer Lee. And missing from that list was Representative AOC. Now, to be clear, I'm speaking solely on my own behalf. This is post-production. Andrew is not on the line and not in the room. But I, Don, must point the finger at what was an atrocious performance by AOC, that perhaps even more than anything that she has hitherto done in her short congressional career, her refusal to vote for this amendment that would

have potentially, if passed, of course it didn't pass, it wouldn't pass. But it's nevertheless a poll to show what side you are on. And it is a yes or no question of whether to increase the amount of money that is funding Israeli weapons from the U.S. taxpayer or to decrease that amount. It's a yes or no question. And she said, do not decrease, increase the amount. Increase the amount. I will vote against in vain the passage of the overall aid package, again, in vain, knowingly in vain. But that aid package will be a little bit bigger. Why? Because the Iron Dome is a defensive weapon. And there is a difference because the defensive weapons protect against the death,

and injury to civilians and who wouldn't want to prevent the death and injury to civilians who indeed wouldn't want that and who is committing genocide against civilians who is murdering civilians with impunity from the skies against an enemy confined to tents in the mud, the proposition is preposterous, and the position is putrid. Unforgivable, nevertheless deserving of an apology, because rather than apologize when she had the chance, she, of course, doubled. down. I only go at such length on this anecdote because there is a tendency to forgetting.

Isn't there? That is the main goal of the spectacle is to instill a continuous cycle of forgetting. It is emptying the inbox as a matter of course. And so when something happens that has significance, it behooves us as a people interested in survival and in long-term thriving to make the effort at remembering. And with that, let's get digging with Andrew Meislich. Growing up in Sunday school, I was taught from the Bible. Those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed.

And from my perspective, I want to be on the blessing side of it. Where is that? I can find it to you. I don't have the scripture off the tip of my, tip of my. You pull out the phone and use the same change. But nothing changes what I just said that. I'm always going to stand on the side of Israel, always. Let me be clear.

Contrary to allegations against Israel made by the International Court of Justice, what's happening is not genocide. We reject that. We're going to go to Washington this week and try in the Senate to get supplemental funding not just for Ukraine now, but also for Israel and Israel's defense. I'm going to do everything I can to make sure that we support Israel. Israel has to finish that job. They have to finish it quickly, strongly, and they have to get back to life again. It's taking too long. They have to finish the job.

You're saying go win, win and finish. You got to win. Got to win. for a ceasefire and they have not gone as far as backing the administration's call for support for Israel. So look, I've seen some of those statements this weekend and we're going to continue to be very clear. We believe they're wrong.

We believe they're repugnant and we believe they're disgraceful. What's important right now is support, it's supporting Israel defend itself against terrorists, you know, in a way that holds up the law of war and it protects its, it's, it's to support, civilians. That's what we want to see at this time. Before we move on to the next topic, you know, one of the things that you just mentioned was also this really nasty grant of charitable, tax deductible status to settler organizations. And you mentioned that some of these settlers who are benefiting from these types of programs

are engaged in violence, including against American citizens. And just because we're recording this on July 15th, I wanted to just mention the name of the 20-year-old American citizen, Safe Musalat, who was. lynched by Israeli settlers on the West Bank very recently and who has been the subject of some questions to members of Congress. I know there was one clip I saw going around where Susan Collins, Senator from Maine, was confronted asking about what do you think about the murder of U.S. citizens by Israeli settlers? And her response was, I am pro-Israel.

So just to put a very concrete example of just the degree of depravity of these people, I mean, you can't really make up an example that is more vomit-inducing than that. And, I mean, if we're being honest, potentially illegal. You know, she's encouraging violence against American citizens. abroad by a foreign entity and you know non-state actors right but it's absurd because nothing applies when it comes to the state of Israel or any of their supporters none of the laws apply right we used to say that the law of gravity doesn't even apply to them in Washington D.C. they practically just float down the halls of Congress but it's and I

mean he is that young man is very sadly not the first American Palestinian American lynched in Gaza or American. Lynch in Gaza, or excuse me, in Palestine, broadly, because this was in the West Bank. And of course, you know, it's said that there's so many everyday Palestinians who are also subjected to the same horrifying fate and violence whose names we, you know, don't necessarily always pick up and don't get picked up in our media because they don't have that American title. It's, you know, it's heartbreaking. Every day longer it takes us to win here. the U.S. costs a lot of lives.

Yeah. And by contrast, of course, with the American hostages that or prisoners of war who were being held by Hamas, there Trump was willing to burn American credibility by lying to lying to Hamas about intentions for a ceasefire in order to get one of those Americans released and, of course, went back immediately on his promise, throwing any sense of diplomacy into the wind and pursuing just this craven, craven policy. And I mean, Joe Biden effectively did the same thing, too, right, with the humanitarian peer, which was really a cover for an operation that killed over 100 Palestinian civilians in a rescue attempt

for some of those hostages in POWs. And, I mean, you know, we talk about hostages. There's, even before the war, I think there was about eight, seven or eight thousand, effectively hostages that the Israelis were holding. They just happened to be Palestinian. so we don't talk about those hostages, right? Yeah, right. They're all terrorists because they're Palestinian by definition. Well, yeah, I mean, they're all convicted, of course.

You know, in a system, you know, they're subjected. I think it's 99.8% is the conviction rate of the Israeli judicial system that the military one that they subject Palestinians to. It's patently absurd. Well, because the conviction rate so high, it erases the distinction between a pretrial detainee, and a convict because if they're 98% likely to get convicted anyways, then what does it matter that they haven't been given due process yet? Yep. So send them to the death camp, like, I can't pronounce it,

but stay TMN or whatever that place is, that horror hellhole. God, the things they're going to find there, I show her with the thought. I mean, just from what I've seen in evidence, it's horrifying. Absolutely. Well, out of this darkness, perhaps we can pivot the discussion to something that's not exactly light, but to at least the efforts that Roshita and a precious few members of Congress have undertaken to push back on the bipartisan consensus in favor of apartheidious. and genocide. Now, you were working for Rashida at the time of the ceasefire resolution that was submitted in the wake of October 7th and of the immediate retaliatory calls to action and strikes by Israel, right? Yeah, yeah. I've been, I've covered foreign affairs for her for, you know, basically since

September of 2019, that was her first year. So including that time and we were actually we were supposed to fly to Israel and Palestine on October 9th of that year. But obviously that did not happen.

Yeah. Well, I was kind of hoping that you could walk through if the listener doesn't know, there was a ceasefire resolution that several members put out there, you know, calling on Israel to restrain itself from doing the

types of things that its leaders immediately called for after October 7th. You will remember that, you know, the comparisons to the biblical times and the calls to wipe out Amalek and destroy the men, women, children, and cattle of the Palestinians were ringing throughout the entire cabinet and military of Israel immediately. And into that atmosphere, a few members of Congress bravely chose to separate themselves from the full-scale American co-signature of those genocidal calls. Could you walk us through what that was like from your perspective? Yeah, I mean, it was a crazy time.

I mean, what do you even start to say about it? It's in the moment we, you know, as you're getting to grips with how consequences, the events of that day were, there was a pretty immediate recognition on the part of, you know, kind of a core group of us who have worked on the issue of Palestine for quite a while at the staff level and, you know, amongst the offices, that this, whatever was going to happen was going to be horrific and unlike anything we'd ever seen. None of us could have predicted just how horrific it has been, but we knew it was going to be horrible. And there was a pretty basic understanding, I think, amongst the whole group of us that, effectively, the sooner we start pushing for peace, the fewer people die. And there's really no other calculus involved. And so then it really became more of, okay, how can we most effectively do that?

And, you know, we presented a number of options to, you know, myself to Rashida, but, you know, these are really made up kind of a core group of staff who are working on it amongst both a couple of kind of, you know, Rashida's office, Rep Bush's office, and then a number of others like Rick Carson and a few more. and we presented them with a number of options and what they decided was the best the route we wanted to go was with a resolution that became the ceasefire now resolution the point of which was really never to pass, right, obviously, but to just try to at least rally people and have something to push back against the sheer tide of hate

and so, you know, within a few days, I'd say within five days, we had the whole thing drafted, ready to go, and then we sent it around to members of Congress, and it was, it's, if you look at that bill, it's interesting to see the people who were on as original co-sponsors, which means they joined before the bill was introduced, you know, they were in there in the beginning. And there are some people like that you would kind of assume, Rashida, obviously, Rep Omar, you know, another one, and folks like that. And then there's Rep Velazquez is another one who's really been there. And then there's some more that people, you know, might not have expected. And I know, you know, Rep Adams, Alma Adams, joined and was one we didn't expect. But, you know, there's a whole number of them. and other folks who were supportive. It never got officially the traction in terms of co-sponsors that we would have liked,

but it ended up doing what we wanted it to do, which was really, like I said, provide that rallying point, provide something, show people that, you know, you can oppose this horrifying conflict that we're seeing develop in front of our eyes. And you can say, you know, at it is perfectly you know normal human and healthy to say at any point at to have said at any day during this conflict that like too many children have died and this needs to stop period right that's what ceasefire now is about and you know um i mean in a nutshell that's how it happened

um but happy to dig deeper too yeah i mean i guess one question would be Republican members that we now see being kind of touted as critics of Israel, talking about the likes of Thomas Massey and Marjorie Taylor Green, were any of those folks in the conversation at all or expressing any sort of reticence to co-sign a scorched earth campaign by Israel? I mean, we certainly didn't consult any of them. Certainly not Marjorie. I mean, you'll remember she started her campaign off by threatening to, effectively posting a death threat to Roshita. So we tend to not engage with her.

But, you know, it was one we, that was kept really kind of close. I mean, it's a little different when, you know, in terms of, you know, for Roshita, when it's your, you know, know, she's, you know, born and raised here in the U.S., but it's your homeland, right? And you have family there, and it's your family under the bomb. So it's a very emotional thing to work on as well. And so, you know, having, I mean, having a member like, you know, Red Bush or members like Rick Bowman or, you know, KSAR, there's a number of others that, you know, were members who just showed up and were, you know, what do you need?

What do we think is best here to help out, here to, you know, work together on it? That was really, it made all the difference in those first days, right? But there really wasn't, there's definitely Republicans who, you know, Massey has not been supportive of the Israeli governments for quite some time. And I mean, even though she's out of her gourd, it's good to see Marge, you know, out there at least. Speaking a little truth, I guess, you know, stuck clocks right twice a day, but, you know, they really were not, there's never really been leadership from the

Republican end of things. But that's not, don't take that to mean that there isn't a significant shift in the Republicans because there definitely has been, you know, and it's, it's been interesting to watch happen in front of my eyes. I mean, obviously, there's a long way to go. And a whole number of them, and a whole number of Democrats, too, are just hateful, right? And those people aren't ever going to, you know, we didn't really bother spending our time working on those folks. But there's a lot of folks who are just misinformed or ignorant or, you know, had been taught something their whole life and never have met a Palestinian, right? And people like Rashida,

She was that Palestinian and continuously is for a lot of members of Congress or, you know, somebody like Justin Amash, who was the, he was originally a Republican and became an independent during Trump's first term, but he's a Palestinian. I believe his family are Ghazan Christians, right? So, you know, there's a number of them who have, in the last decade, actually met Palestinians. And that little detail in and of itself is not. Not for everybody, but for some people it can make a surprising amount of difference. Now, you mentioned that you were surprised about some of the folks that did decide to co-sign.

Were you expecting there to be more of a response from, you know, from the Democrat Party more broadly? or was the kind of rejection of the idea on principle by the majority of the caucus predictable? It was fairly predictable, right? You know, we, I think we expected more support amongst what's known as the Progressive Caucus, the CPC. and that was particularly disappointing. You know, and we got, there was a number of members who did sign on, and that was, you know, very much, that's where the core of the support was was from, actually I think all of the support was from the CPC.

But, you know, that's a, the list I'm looking at right now is 18 members long, and there's basically 100 members of the CPC. So that tells you how much traction it got even there in the supposedly progressive left-leaning end of the party so you know we never really expected to get any support um from leadership certainly not uh and you know i guess i wasn't expecting corin jean pierre to what i don't even remember what it was she said about us um you know the the level of vitriol they'd come out with but um you know it didn't it did not work in their favor yeah because because she's so irrelevant immediately cast into irrelevance upon losing

her job in case the listener doesn't recall. Carine Jean-Pierre was the comically incompetent press secretary for President Biden, who, if I recall correctly, her words were something like disgusting and disgraceful when describing the resolution that called for a ceasefire. And indeed, correct me if I'm misremembering, but I think it also called, for a release of the hostages, right? I'd have to look at the text to remember, but that's certainly implicit in the whole thing, right?

That was always understood as being very central to achieving a ceasefire, right? How do you achieve a ceasefire without getting a release of hostages? So, you know, it's just, yeah, I mean, that's, it's part and parcel. Yeah, I mean, it's extremely short the resolution. I've just opened it up. It calls for, quote, immediate de-escalation and ceasefire in Israel and occupied Palestine.

It says that, quote, all human life is precious and the targeting of civilians, no matter their faith or ethnicity, is a violation of international humanitarian law. And it says that, quote, between October 7th and October 16th, 2023, armed violence has claimed the lives of over 2700 Palestinians and over 4,000. 1,400 Israelis, including Americans and wounded thousands more, end quote. So there's your, you know, nod to the other side. It's not a one-sided pro-Palestine resolution even. I mean, to think that...

Yeah, we... Go ahead. We wrote it to be as neutral as possible, right? The point is not to, you know, this isn't like us writing a bill to sanction the Israelis, right? This was us writing a bill to say, can we please, like, stop killing kids? And, right, like, at the end of the day, you know, the, you know, I think remember Rashida said on the floor, you know, the cries of all the kids sound the same to me, right? Like, it's ridiculous this whole, you know, the total lack of shared humanity that just immediately pervasively zapped through Congress. it was really deeply disturbing to witness.

And it was basically an attempt to say, you know, to reject that. And I mean, this is a piece of legislation that, you know, you see. So that timeline, the 7th, the 16th is how long it took us to write and then organize and introduce the bill. But in that process, I mean, we had we had Muslim groups, Christian groups, atheist groups, Hindu groups, Sikh groups. We had Quakers, you know, every, you know, every faith and ethnicity you could imagine and representatives of countless movements take a look at this. And that's why it's so short, right? It was, it's, this is what everybody could agree on, right? And that's all we wanted to do.

But it is, it's, it's, it was, it was certainly an education. I'll say that. Yeah. And it's something that, you know, know, for whatever reason, it seems to have marked a kind of before and after as to the existence of the so-called squad in some ways. That, you know, there was this whole memeified squad that had its Netflix documentary and largely revolving around AOC in a lot of ways. But this the reactions of the various squad members to the genocide that was so enthusiastically supported by

the Biden administration, which I think seemed to divide certainly the voting base of the Democratic Party and lost a lot of support for the 2024 campaign as compared to Biden's 2020 election. But it also polarized the members of Congress on the sort of anti-system or, you know, whatever you want to call it, left-leaning wing of the party. Was that something that created tension at the time? I mean, the whole, there's always been tension, right? The squad, you know, whether it's the original four or the expanded universe, you know, they're all human. And so everybody's going to have disagreements. This particular issue has proven uniquely, you know, difficult for a lot, for basically everybody who is engaged in politics to tackle.

even if you have a very clear understanding like Rashida does and did of what her position was and is and where she stands that doesn't make it an easy issue to confront and there's a lot of times where you're trying to guess the best strategy and there's not always agreement on that. You know, one thing I think is really important

is Palestinians tend to not be allowed to ask. a voice and there was a real, I think there was, there's, you know, I won't name names, but there's a bit of a divide and I think they've gotten over it, right, to a significant extent amongst, and this is just not in the squad, but just progressives broadly, right? You know, those who would look to Rashida, you know, with the same respect that say, you know, if you're talking about the issue of Puerto Rico, you're going to look to AOC and Nydia Velasquez, who are Puerto Ricania.

And, you know, they, they know that history better than any of us ever could. And there's a, you know, there's a whole crew that really looked to Rashida in that way and understood that, you know, of everybody in Washington, frankly, nobody understands Palestinian politics better than her in the U.S. And what's going on here in terms of the occupation better than her. And so there was, you know, there's people who I saw, you know, respect that and really exemplify that and, you know, understand that, you know, these are, it's a totally new time and there's, it calls for, you know, new steps and new tactics and new measures. And then there's people who are more recalcitrant to, you know, they were a lot more hesitant to really kind of follow that leadership of both the people like Rashida, who's someone that's been speaking out on this forever. And, you know, you don't have to be a leader on the issue, right?

Like, and I think that's one place where a number of members have run into trouble, where they're trying to be out there and lead on the issue because it is such a big issue. You don't have to do it. And if you don't know what you're talking about, don't. You got to educate yourself, right? It's a, it, while being, you know, in the broad strokes, actually quite a simple issue in question of right and wrong. the you know the questions and topics at hand get very very complex and you know if you're not ready to handle that and if you're not going to talk to Palestinians while trying to you know lead on the

issue what do you do it is kind of my always been my opinion right so you know there were definitely you know some people that really shone and stood up and there were some people that didn't and you know like i think we chatted about before this i'm still working in the area. So, you know, got to be a little more careful than I usually like to be in what I'm saying. But it's, it's, yeah, it's, the long and the short of it is, I think most have come around, but it's, it's good to see more people respecting, not just Rashida, but just generally speaking Palestinians and their leadership of this space and what needs to happen here, both here in the U.S. and going forward in terms of ending the occupation and the

apartheid system and not just like a bunch of white people talking about what they think should happen yeah and i guess there's got to be some impact as far as any progress that's been made of the change in administrations right i mean when you have a democrat in the white house and the messaging is coming down extremely strong in favor of israel's quote unquote right to self-defense, i.e. it's right to indiscriminately massacre civilians for the purpose of ethnic cleansing and extermination, right? But the Biden administration was cheerleading that from the jump, as we've said, and now, and so it's harder for somebody with interest in climbing up the ladder of the party to speak out very clearly and unequivocally about

that. Whereas when you have a Trump White House, then, you know, of course it's freedom to speak a little bit more openly against a policy that's embraced by the opposing party. But I wonder, Well, I guess first, I mean, do you think that that's right? Yeah, I mean, that's definitely accurate. There was, it's amazing how some members will grow a spine as soon as their party is not in office in the White House. And it's actually kind of funny. You mentioned it. I mean, there is, you know, as you work in Congress, you just will end up talking to Republican staff and all that.

and a lot of them would say some version of this like lying to me about Rashida where they're like, I don't agree with the word she says, but we appreciate that she sticks to her guns. And I mean, that's a recognition of the fact that unlike a lot of members, she's one that has been very, very consistent, whether you agree with her or not, on where her position is and where she stands, whether that's Biden or Trump or, well, Trump or Biden, and then Trump again, you know, it hasn't changed. And, you know, when they're the ones saying that, it actually, I don't know, I always took that as a bit of a compliment. Yeah, for sure. And I guess it raises some questions now for those of us outside politics, you know, if the democratic establishment is, they've shown their cards on this issue.

They have demonstrated a willingness to undertake atrocities almost unimaginable, you know, Holocaust proportions. So what does that mean for the future of the two-party system? And how can, I guess it's a question that seems to come up in every one of our chats, But is it time to finally throw these dinosaurs into the tar pit and start something new when that headwind of institutional support for genocide is coming at you so strong that it derails any efforts to rally even the people that are political. politically firmly against these types of policies and atrocities. Yeah, it's the million-dollar question, as it would be, or maybe billion with inflation. But the, I mean, there's, it comes back to the core, I mean, it's obviously time to throw

these dinosaurs in the tar pit, whether you're talking about just leadership, period, and a lot of these members who support this, whether, you know, they be Republican or Democrat. You know, I would love to throw the parties themselves in the tarpid. I'm of the firm belief that they are the number one source of corruption in our country, right? All the corruption or most of the corruption, it doesn't necessarily start there, but it's a centralizing, you know, funnel. It's the toilet drain where it all goes through, is both of those parties. But that being said, I mean, it's a question of strategy, right? do we, as the left, you know, thinking about our example, do we try to take over the Democratic Party and is that even possible?

Or do we try to start our own new party and what will occur when that happens in terms of, you know, the way we'll be attacked and will we be able to be electorally viable and actually, you know, survive or would we just be a, you know, a spark in the pan and fade into, you know, irrelevance? So, you know, those are the questions. And penetrate the propaganda machine too, right? It's not just the political parties, but they reflect the stream of propaganda that is injected into everybody's phones, TVs, wherever you access the media, constantly. Yeah, 100% right. That's, you know, the whole media, and that's how you get voters actually interested in you. and then people have to actually believe something other than the Democratic and Republican parties is possible, which understandably for a lot of us can be a hard thing to believe because I think all of us can say we have lived our entire lives under this, what I would call the dictatorship of the two parties, right?

You know, I think I mentioned it in another, in one of the early episodes, but I, you know, I met a vet out in Colorado who said that the parties are two wings on the same vulture. and it's just about the best way I've heard it put, right? And, you know, they're really picking the country's bones at this point. But, you know, we were chatting before the podcast, before we sat down to record about that really unique Marjorie, Taylor Green and Tucker Carlson interview. And, you know, it was insane and racist per usual for a whole number of reasons. But you do see, right, like, you know,

they spent a huge portion of the time questioning Israel and questioning America's, you know, unwavering support. Hurrah, rah, for Israel, right? And I think what that shows is that it's kind of my opinion that we've passed a bit of a breaking point here. And that, you know, it's not, we're not talking about an immediate change, but I really do not see if I'm trying to put myself in Apex Boots, I don't see a successful. strategy or an obviously successful strategy towards, you know, winning back the American

public after what they've seen for the past two years, right? It's just, it's, it's, it's kind of like the consequences of the Tet Offensive in the Vietnam generation in my perspective, right? It, where, yeah, you know, at the end of the day, the U.S. and their South Vietnamese allies won, but at, you know, a devastating cost. And it really sank public opinion. for the war and I don't know how many years on it was, but, you know, really contributed in the end of the day to the end of the war and U.S. withdrawal. And I suspect that the genocide is somewhat similar, certainly very different in many ways, but I really do not see the reversal in this really seismic shift we've seen towards supporting the Palestinian cause and

an end to the apartheid system that the Israelis are opposing upon the region. And I mean, I think the reason, you know, we, the other thing you mentioned is how, you know, you're like ripping your hair out when you see all these libs on X or whatever on Twitter going, oh, I'm agreed with Marjorie. It's crazy. Right. Like they're, they read the tea leaves too, right? And they're quite good at it despite being nuts. Like Tucker Carlson is good at reading the tea leaves. understanding the populace. So they're seeing the same thing. So it's a very, you know, it's a good sign that they're pandering and trying to catch up and in trying to get, you know, place themselves against supporting all this, or at least it carve out a position not directly

in support for whatever their reasons are. It definitely signals, I would say, a continued collapse in support for Israel and the U.S. that's only going to accelerate. coming years. Yeah, I couldn't have put it better. I mean, I think they, it's important to be vigilant when consuming these sort of right-wing path-breaking discourses that are emerging from the likes of Tucker or Steve Bannon or Marjorie Taylor Green because it's tempting because they have already a platform that is supported by billionaires that is amplified by the ruling class, right? This is something that I think people must internalize.

When you hear things like where's the Tea Party of the Left or something like that, that assumes that the Tea Party was, in fact, the grassroots movement that it purported, to be that then grew into maga but that's not what the tea party was and that's not what maga is they are ruling class trojan horse movements that are astroturfed by big money in the case of the tea party you know there's a coke network largely of the coke brothers and with maga you know it's anywhere from the Silicon Valley tech billionaires like Peter Thiel and his ilk, and of course, Musk, notwithstanding the little drama that he and Trump play out online against each other, the guy put a quarter of a billion dollars into Trump's election

after all. So it's like there is no equivalent of that on the left. The left, only has numbers of people. It will never wield the pocketbook of the ruling class in the way that these faux populace right-wing movements do. And that's why I think it's, don't waste your breath talking about how you agree with whatever good points these people make. That is the starting point. well this point is legitimate and look even these right wingers are making this point but they're making it

like and then you just do the thing just call out the hypocrisy you know when you hear Tucker say to Marjorie well I think that Israel has the right to do whatever it feels necessary to do to defend itself I just don't think that America has to foot the bill for it right like that's that's his whole thing. He goes on to say things like, I'm just against killing people. Okay. That's my theology. I know Ted Cruz said that he has some preposterous theology based on Genesis' promise of land to the nation of Israel. Couldn't explain it. But my theology is I'm against killing people, especially the most vulnerable people. But then he never says a single word about Israel's treatment of Palestinians. All he's talking about is avoiding a U.S. boots on the ground, planes in the air,

hot war with Iran or whomever in the Middle East. He does not say peep about the Palestinians. And he, in fact, in that same interview, him and Marjorie team up against Rashida and indeed against quote unquote foreigners in the government. Well, they got real racist with it. It was a treat, if you haven't. Clearly, as you can see, Don has listened to way too much of Tucker. We're subjecting him to it like he's in a black sight in Poland. But just playing it on loop. That is a really good and mildly terrifying impersonation there, though.

But you're exactly right, right? Like, they're not, you know, you don't even really, frankly, we don't need to engage with this. Like you said, we're never going to have the pocketbook. of these people, we need to stop trying to fight like them. You don't win by like fighting, by copying them, right? You do your own thing. It's come up with something new and different, right? That's how we win. And that's consistently when we've been most successful, right? Like, taking this position, any Washington consultant would have told you, Jesus God, don't introduce this resolution right now, right? You know, if we were just solely following

you know, what, what, you know, some Washington consultants think or what the polls say you would have never introduced ceasefire now. But that had nothing to do with why we introduced ceasefire now. The whole point of ceasefire now is to move the public opinion, not, you know, desperately follow it around and then send your donation link. You know, it was to move public opinion in support of ending a genocide and ending the apartheid project. So, I mean, to that extent, it certainly wasn't, you know, to round back.

to this part of the conversation. It wasn't, by any means, it was only a very small part of what moved public opinion. But I do think it was successful towards that aim. But it's an example of we don't need to, like, we don't need to start, you know, like look into these people, right? Let's remember where they are and who they are. They're hateful lunatics, right? And hates like a cancer. So, you know, Marjorie Space Lasers, Taylor Green over here is not someone we need to, be consulting about world peace yeah yeah in the same interview she alludes to the role of Israel in the book of revelations and implies that the Israeli nation is somehow you know kind of this left the left behind books view of future history um but on I guess guess the opposite side, I don't know, it makes no sense what she actually believes. But I guess what I would encourage, and I want to get your thoughts on this, maybe in closing, is talking about reading the tea leaves, talking about the fact that public opinion is extremely favorable to an anti-genocide position, and that these people are

coming out of the woodwork to score rhetorical points based on that shift in public opinion and creating thereby certainly some virtuous cycle effects, right? The more that your Tucker Carlson's say bad things about Israel, you know, that is good. You can't say like, it's good that they're saying it because it normalizes the position among a wider span of the population, which in turn furthers the gulf between the pro-genocide minority and the anti-genocide majority. That is objectively a good thing.

But what do you do about that? You don't sit back like James Carville would have you do and do nothing and cross your arms, right? You... Just go on a tantral. on CNN. Yeah. Real effective.

Really, it helps part of unity. Yeah. But what I would propose is, you know, these elected officials need to put their, you know, put up or shut up, right? If you are really in favor of America and of protecting American lives, then call for investigation into the lynching of an American citizen in the West Bank. If you really are morally opposed to killing children, then call for an arms embargo to Israel. You know, enforce the laws that are already on the books, right? The Lehi law that prohibits the distribution of U.S. military

aid to the people, to countries committing war crimes. That after leaving the government, all these disgusting mouthpieces for the Biden administration are coming out like little worms in the rain and saying, well, I was actually against it the whole time, but I just said I was for it because that was what the U.S. government's position was. And I was just a spokesperson for the U.S. government's position. Fuck you, Matt Miller. Fuck you, Fadant Patel. Fuck you, Sabrina Khan.

All of these people. Oh, yeah. And I mean, you know, just just on those people. before we get back to this. I mean, we were taking notes on who was where, right? Like, we, we, you think we didn't know who sat where, right? Like, and I can assure you, um, with very limited exceptions, every one of them was on board. Um, and we can get maybe one of those, another time we could talk about those limited exceptions. But Matt Miller sure as hell wasn't one of them. Uh, let's be clear about that. That guy, oh, God, he's awful.

Um, the smirk says it all. Oh, my God. Yeah. I mean, there, there's, I swear the devil's, you know, digging a new circle of hell for all these people. Well, and besides, they all go to work for these PR firms that rep arms manufacturers after leaving the government. So it's like, there's zero credibility there. But I guess my point was, you know, these are popular positions. And I wonder, you know, you're. You're. You're. You're. You're. You're. You're. You. You're. You're. You. You're. You. You're. You're. You. You. You're. You. You. You're. You're. You're. You much more in tune with the advocacy space than I am. So like what's going on? What can people do? How do we as the presumable voters that should impact policy towards our preferences actually make it stick and convert that paltry number of voices against the genocide into a larger contingent? Oh, I'm drawing a total. How do we do this? It's almost an impossible question, so. One thing we have to do is really ensure that we are judging.

leaders, whether they're representative, centers, whoever, based on their actions and not just, you know, posts and words and all that. So, um, and we as a movement need to be better about communicating and getting, uh, you know, the resources necessary to do that into the hands of everyday people and people who are on the front lines and people whose job this isn't day in and day out, right? Um, so who is actually, you know, you know, you see Cory Booker get up there and give a speech for hours on end, but then he sits down. 100 votes for, you know, was it, I can't remember, was it arms to Israel or was it, you know, supported for one of the nominees.

Oh, yeah, and he was in the picture in the photo op with BB just last week. Hilariously hiding, like trying to hide. So pathetic, dude, that was pathetic. That's just, that's, yeah, that's one of, like, a member of the 100-person body. That's the most powerful body in the country, really. But, yeah, I mean, someone. these people, also like Gillibrand and

what she said about Lamdami, like if she had said the equivalent thing about a Jewish person, she would have been run out of the party in about 15 seconds, as she should rightly be, but like it very clearly to be exposed as the double standard that we've seen constantly, which is that there's a

lot of Democrats, Gillibrand is pretty clearly amongst them, who aren't able to view Arab Americans and Muslim Americans as equal human beings. And I don't know why, you know, our leadership or, well, I mean, I'm not surprised, but Democratic leadership thinks it's acceptable to let that, like, slide with a slap on the wrist. And, you know, that's just ridiculous.

And that's, you know, they're like, oh, why did a whole bunch of Muslim voters and Arab American voters, like, not vote for the Democratic Party? Oh, I wonder why. You've got members being openly bigoted against them. Maybe you should do something about that instead of just, like, kind of wagging your finger at him half-heartedly. And then you refuse to support, like, a guy who got more primary voters than any candidate in New York history that I'm aware of, right? And he just happens, you know, half the rhetoric is because he's Muslim and from Africa and, you know, is all, you know,

very clearly racist. That's not, you're, you guys aren't doing a very good job appealing to your supposed base. And then, you know, you're asking yourself. why it's ridiculous yeah it really is a commitment to not just losing but being losers it's like back to our discussion about identity it seems like just being losers not wanting to win and and preferring instead to take an easy paycheck is the order of the day. And it's like, it's almost the best case scenario that they're motivated by donations and by the irreversibly corrupt deterioration of anything resembling democracy in this country because the alternative explanation, either that they are, I mean, you get into the alternative

explanations and you can kind of pick your poison, either they all have blackmail compramat out there on somebody's hard drive somewhere, or they all are extremely stupid, or they are just hateful, venal, immoral individuals. And, you know, I think you probably find all of the above from... That you do. I was going to say that. So I guess we'll just have to keep on... We'll just have to keep on speaking on it and pump those numbers

because the tide is shifting and we can't let, I mean, this is about the massacre of a people, right? This is about the oppression, colonization, and extermination of a people, which is the foundational evil on which the post-World War II rules-based order, as it's called, by its backers, was purportedly built. And if there is any justice in the world, that hypocrisy, And that irony and the cruelty of that irony must shine through. And it is for the victims of this apartheid exterminationist, genocidal regime in Palestine and beyond, to be clear. It's Palestine is the cutting edge.

It's the tip of the spear for the global apartheid movement that we've talked about. But it's not the end of this project. We are facing a real decision between fascism, which could last generations or could, you know, cruise the human race right into its... extinction or a human future that permits us to thrive and enjoy and share the marvelous miracle of a planet that we've all been lucky enough to have been born onto the house of cards is shakier than ever that's at least as far as i can tell that's right and let's keep on pulling at the foundations of it Andrew, thanks so much for coming on. Thanks for having me, Don.

And we'll do it again soon. I'm going to a rave outside a concentration camp. Let the flashing bright lights blind my eyes to the suffering within. Let the music drown out all the cries with the cries with a point. false of EDM as the MDMA hits and blows me away. Take me on a trip upon your magic swirling ship. A patchy helicopter full artillery equip Flying over the reservation

And empty in a cliff And I slip into a haze And do just what the generous is Party in the Promised Land We're having fun while we still can Party through the desert night Everything will be all right. Party in the promised land.

It's going according to plan. Tuning out, moving in, let the genocide begin. It's the dawning of Aquarius, bring the water over here. over here now I'm rolling my heads in the clouds in second coming near but let's make sure that they stay scared of us because love always conquers fear only here we exist so enlist and don't resist yeah we're gonna have We'll never rave outside a concentration camp. We're gonna keep the party going till it spreads across the map.

And if you don't care to join us, you can fall right in a trap. And through the glass, we'll see you in the camp we're looking at. Party in the promised land These vibes are getting out of hand Party through the desert night Everything will be all right Party in the promised land It's going according to plan

Tuning out Moving in Hope the car But it never ends.