Fourth Reich Archaeology - The Warren Commission Decided 11: White Russians / Black Ops pt. B

Episode Date: April 4, 2025

This episode picks up right where the last one left off. We’re digging up the Dallas/Fort Worth area in summer 1962, just as 22 year-old Lee and 20 year-old Marina Oswald make their return to the United States from Minsk, USSR, where Lee had spent the last three years. We cover the somewhat competing narratives around how the Oswalds were first introduced to the de Mohrenschildts and settle on our preferred interpretation. Without giving away too many spoilers, each link in the chain binding the Oswalds to the White Russians is dipped in oil and monitored under the watchful eye of the CIA. It’s really the same “general dynamic” (pun intended) that prevailed in the scene we’ve been setting over the last two episodes.We go on to deepen our illustration of the White Russian Milieu, doing our best not to get bogged down in all those consonant-heavy Cyrillic names while still hitting the key points we’ll need to know once we get back to the Warren Commission - and to Albert Jenner’s interrogation of the de Mohrenschildts - in the next and final installment of this content cluster. In that spirit, we zoom in on General Dynamics and its employees who were connected to de Mohrenschildt and the other White Russians. Wouldn’t you know it, those same threads also lead to the FBI, the Mafia, the oil industry (obviously), and Lyndon Johnson’s Texas Democratic political machine.We move the narrative forward in time, covering the brief but meaningful period the de Mohrenschildts and Oswalds’ friendship lasted: July 1962 - April 1963. In that span, we cover the “hand-off” of the Oswalds to the Paines, and do a brief overview of their spooked-up background, and we also touch on the incident at Easter when Jeanne de Mohrenschildt catches a chance glimpse of a rifle in the Oswalds’ Dallas closet. We consider and discuss the ways in which the innocent surface-level narratives around some of the seemingly deep events going on at this time conceal the sub-rosa activities of the deceitful, enigmatic actors on the stage. You won’t want to miss it!Patreon: www.Patreon.com/fourthreicharchaeologyFurther reading: Bill Simpich’s series on the “Oswald Legend” - https://aarclibrary.org/bill-simpich-the-twelve-who-built-the-oswald-legend/Russ Baker on George de Mohrenschildt: https://whowhatwhy.org/politics/government-integrity/bush-and-the-jfk-hit-part-5-the-mysterious-mr-de-mohrenschildt/

Colonialism or imperialism, as the slave system of the West is called, is not something that's just confined to England or France or the United States. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. So it's one huge complex or combine. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. And this international power structure is used to suppress the masses of dark-skinned people all over the world and exploit them of their natural resources. We found no evidence of conspiracy, foreign or domestic, the Warren Commission, the science.

I'll never apologize for the United States of America. America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are. In 1945, we began to require information which showed that there were two wars going. His job, he said, was to protect the Western way of life. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders the more easy victims of a big lie than a small one. For example, we're the CIA. Now, he has a mile.

He knows so long as a die, afraid of we'd never be secure. It usually takes a national crisis. Freedom can never be secure. Pearl Harbor. A lot of killers. We've got a lot of killers. Why you think our country's so innocent? This is a day.

I have a national bloomin. This is coming. Porth Lash is coming. Archaeology. This is Fourth Reich Archaeology. I'm Dick. And I'm done. Welcome back to another installment of the Warren Commission Decided.

We wanted to thank everyone so far for tuning in, for liking the pod, for subscribing to the pod. You can always write us at forthrightepod at gmail.com. We are on social media, on Twitter and Instagram, at forthright pod. and we could not be doing this today, were it not for our Patreon subscribers. So we really want to say a special thank you to the folks on Patreon and for anyone who really does believe in the message we're conveying here and thinks that Dick and Don have a lot more to contribute. And if you have the means, please subscribe to our Patreon.

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Now today, we will continue the Warren Commission decided and our exploration or excavation into the white Russian milieu in Dallas, Texas, into which Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife Marina returned in 1962 from their time away in the Soviet Union. recall that we started out this excavation with a deep dive into Warren Commission Council Albert Jenner, board member of military contractor General Dynamics, and prime outside attorney for General Dynamics, and then we've looked to our good friend George DeMorinshild. And George de Moorinshild, as we've already discussed at length, comes from a long line of aristocratic, well-connected, well-lubricated, you could say, lubricated with that universal lubricant petroleum. so for example we discussed how george de morin shilt's uncle ferdinand was an emissary for the czar way back

in the 19 teens to elicit american support for the russian royalist cause in world war one and his older brother continued in the family's lineage to lay even more deep roots in America, talking about Dimitri von Morin Schild, who became an agent of the OSS and got himself into a plum career as a Western anti-communist propagandist. And so both Uncle Ferdinand and Big Brother Dmitri greased the skids, if you will, laid the groundwork for George de Moran Schilt to pursue a swash-buckling career in his own right. Recall that while his brother was out here in the States, Georgie was in Europe making a name for himself in the social scene of the upper crust, the anti-communist scene in Europe in the

1930s. But then eventually, George himself moved to the states. And he ultimately, after doing a brief stint in propaganda filmmaking and also trying to gain acceptance into the American intelligence apparatus, he ultimately settled in North Texas and decided to take a spin in the family business, the oil business. And pretty quickly, he made a name for himself. At the time, many Russians were living in North Texas. There was a community of anti-Sovietz, anti-communists, and this community was lovingly referred to as the colony. I think that's as good a place as any to get right back into it

in the summer of 1962 with the return of the Oswald. Suddenly, Suddenly the door On the man who has to become so Even after his death And I think that only a person who has never met Harvey Lee Osmond Could call him an insignificant person

because he certainly wasn't anything of the country. Well, I act very often by intuition. And probably being quite intuitive, Lee felt it, and in no time at all we were chatting like old friends. But to me, he turned out to be an extremely interesting man. I detected immediately a clear, independent mind and ability and courage to express himself courageously. I have to say that this was one of these best qualities, his immediate concentration on the subject, a vivid concern, an unrelenting pursuit of truth as opposed to a regular double-top man hears of parties.

We agree with Mrs. Oswald that her son was probably innocent in this tragic crime. And we said so to the Warren Committee, investigator. Lee was not only favorably disposed towards President Kennedy, but he admired him in his own quiet and reserved way. way. One evening we discussed Kennedy's efforts on bringing peace to the world and he said that he thought it was great. Kennedy's effort to bring end to segregation brought expressions of admiration from Lee. Lee obviously identified himself in his frustrated miserable childhood with the fate of underdog

of color children and he expressed his feelings to everybody who wanted to hear it and so by the time Marina and Lee are heading into town the colony of course got word of the couples of

rival and they wanted to get the sort of lowdown, get some feelers on who these new Russians were. And so Georgie and his friend Colonel Orloff, they took that long, stinky drive from Dallas to Fort Worth to a dingy little neighborhood to do a visit on the young couple. That's right. And interestingly, the means by which the colony caught wind of the Oswald's arrival is like most things with the white Russians of Dallas shrouded in its own mystery. So the basic narrative is that Lee Oswald returns to four. Fort Worth and begins making inquiries at the Fort Worth Public Library about services in Russian language for Marina to access because according to legend Marina at this time spoke

almost no English at all and there was a Russian language instructor who happened to give lessons through the Fort Worth Public Library, a guy by the name of Peter Paul Gregory, or Grigori. And he was, according to the official narrative, the first person who made contact with the Oswald. Grigori then passes word to one of the real centerpieces of this colony. This was a guy by the name of George Bouhe, B-O-U-H-E, and Bouhe had fled Russia with help from the American Relief Administration, which was a espionage-tinged operation during the Russian Civil War that was

supposedly providing food aid to Russians, but was also helping the white Russians in their war against the Bolsheviks in order to secure the property of Herbert Hoover and the consortium of American business executives that he represented. In Dallas, Buhay was an oil accountant for the firm de gallier and mcnaughton believe we mentioned them in our last episode and they may come up again they're one of these firms around the oil milieu and the dallas petroleum club that we talked about last time the dallas council on world affairs of neil mallin etc etc and de gallier and mcnaughton also had its hook in both espionage and democratic politics, wouldn't you guess it, the son-in-law of named

partner Everett de Gaulier was George McGee. And George McGee, without getting into his lengthy, spooked up history working for the State Department in places like the Congo and the Dominican Republic at particularly interesting moments in those country's histories, not to mention Iran in 1951, well, George McGee was the Texas chair for the Lyndon Johnson for president campaign in the 1960 election. McGee also sat on the board of Pan to Peck Oil, remember William. William M.F. Buckley Senior's concern alongside George DeMoran Schilt and was also active alongside George DeMoran Schilt in Neil Malins, Dallas Council on World Affairs. So it all comes full circle and we've just established yet another node between the white Russians, Linden Johnson,

the oil industry and the espionage community. Now to transition back to the Oswalds and how they met the DeMoran Schilts, well, let's open up the groundwork for some competing narratives. Now, one of these narratives comes from Edward J. Epstein. Remember, he was one of the Warren Commission's earliest critics and eventually he came around to really join forces with James Jesus Angleton later on in the 1970s.

And at that time, Epstein, possibly on the lead from Angleton or others in Angleton CIA circles, starts reaching out to witness after witness, coincidentally, just before those witnesses give their testimony before the House Select Committee on Assassinations. And so one of the people whom Epstein reaches out to is, of course, George DeMorinshild. Epstein's narrative picks up on a character who we introduced in the last episode, namely J. Walton Moore.

Dick, you want to give a reminder of who J. Walton Moore was? So Moore was the contact in North Texas for the CIA, right? The Domestic Affairs Office or whatever that was. Yeah, I think the domestic contact service is what they called it. Yeah. So Moore is the guy, the CIA's guy in North Texas. And so I guess the story goes that more directly instructed DeMoren Shield to go talk to Oswald and as much as even giving him the address of the place. Right. So here I'll read what Epstein wrote in his book, which came out after DeMorin Schilt's untimely death, which we will cover later on.

And so it was never vetted by George himself. And we're going to talk about reasons why Epstein's narrative may not be the most reliable, but here's what he says. Moore purposefully steered the conversation in a new direction. The city of Minsk, where, as Moore seemed to know, even before he told him, DeMorinshilt had spent his childhood, Moore then told him about an ex-American Marine who had worked in an electronics factory in Minsk for the past year and in whom there was an interest since he was returning to the Dallas area. Although no specific requests were made by Moore,

De Moorinshild gathered that he would be appreciative to learn more about this unusual ex-Marine's activities in Minsk. In the summer of 1962, De Moorinshild heard more about this defector. One of Moore's associates handed him the address of Lee Harvey Oswald in nearby Fort Worth, and then suggested that Dormorin Schild might like to meet him. He added, as if it was an inducement, that this ex-Marine had returned from Minsk with a pretty Soviet wife. So perverted. Yeah, seriously.

But George being George, old rascal that he was, I'm sure that Moore had good reason to think, that would sweeten the deal. Yeah. He's a hot damn. Let me see that address again. You said, you said for worth?

And it's not an implausible story, right? But it does conflict with the story that DeMorinshield himself had recorded on the tape in an interview from a memoir project that he gave to the Dutch journalist Willem Oltman

in 1969. On that tape, Jeanne Schild described the meeting this way. Early in the summer of 1962, several members of the Russian colony in Fort Worth and Dallas told us of an unusual couple. The husband, an ex-marine, who had spent two years or three years in USSR and had married a Russian girl. They spoke of the ex-marine rather disparagingly, But they all felt sorry for his wife, Marina, and they all tried to, wanted to help.

Also, some American friends in Fort Worth became interested in this couple. They helped financially, Marina, and some found the husband, Harvey Ily Oswald, an unfriendly, eccentric character. So, my associate, a retired United States colonel, Lawrence Orlov, and myself drove to Fort Worth one Hots-July Day, attended to our business early and set out to look for Oswalds. I introduced myself in Russian to this young woman, giving us reference some refugee friends, namely George Bouhey, George Bouquet, B-O-U-H-E. It's certainly possible that George de Moran Schilt was fibbing about the lack of CIA involvement in the meeting in the 1969 recording

and changed his story to give the true facts later on in the 70s when he was talking to Epstein. And, you know, at the end of the day, both scenarios are believable. It doesn't really matter, in fact, whether the initial impetus was put on by Moore or whether it was put on by George Bouhe. the fact of the matter is that de morin shilt was tipped off one way or the other and remember these white Russians even if they are not taking a paycheck from the CIA they're part of the same circle as the CIA guys anyways. And regardless, we do know, as DeMorin Schilt said elsewhere, that Moore was

certainly looped in to his contacts with Oswald sooner or later. And so we have the contact being made under the watchful eye of the CIA. That we can say. with a good degree of confidence, even if the origin story is shrouded in a little bit of a mystery. And as a matter of fact, DeMorin Schilt at this time was also in touch with another guy whom he understood to belong to the CIA or to another intelligence agency, a guy by the name of Max Clark. and Max Clark is a name that is much less familiar even to real JFK heads than the name George de Moorinshilt. But Clark had an important role in this whole affair, especially since we started this

whole discussion with general dynamics. Albert Jenner. You want to tell him who Max Clark was, Dick? Yeah, but before I do, I think it's a good point to sort of take a step back and just look at the environment that we've laid out, right? This Russian anti-communist, emigre community, and within it you have the folks who are sort of the upper crust, who are influential, who are, you know, well-networked, they know everybody. within that you've got George de Moorinshield and we have pretty much made a clear connection between the guy and the CIA right whether it's between whether it's through Moore whether it's through Max Clark whether it's through his own affirmative steps to apply

to the intelligence community like this guy was willing to serve the evidence shows that he was willing to get engaged, get in the game. Right. And his brother, right? His brother was a propagandist, working for Radio Free Europe, working for the Russian Review. He was embedded in this cultural Cold War aspect of the OSS and later the CIA. And George, when he first moved to the United States, was actually, actually bunking with his brother, Dimitri. And so I guess what I'm getting at is, like, as we continue, just keep in mind, like, if I were the CIA in the 60s,

like, there's no better environment for me if I wanted to cultivate some sort of false flag. Or, you know what I mean? Like, if I wanted to do some dirt, I would probably want to leverage these guys, right? because they're well integrated in the American sort of community, well-established, and they harbor this ingrained hatred for the Soviets. That's right. Anyhow, so, you know, we've been talking about Georgie Boy, and the Moorin Shield's name is so well-known in connection with the JFK assassination.

And frankly, like a lot of the stuff we do. just talked about a few seconds ago. It's like most people realize that, right? Like, DeMorin Shield was connected to the CIA. But Max Clark's name, as generic as it is, probably doesn't ring nearly as many bells for folks. And remember, this is a dig into Albert Jenner, after all. And so we can all thank Albert Jenner for the fact. that Max Clark's name never made it to the mainstream because you see Max was a lawyer in

Fort Worth just like our friend Fred Korth who we encountered in our last episode and he worked for general dynamics in fact he was the head of security at the Convair plant and was a decorated Air Force veteran in his own right He also had obtained from the CIA in 1959 a covert security approval. In other words, this guy was a documented agency asset. Yeah, and again, to link the white Russian colony with the CIA, So we have Max Clark, who's approved for covert security work and working at General Dynamics. Max Clark's wife was named Gali Sherbetov.

And she was known in the Russian colony as Princess Sherbetov because she came from the royal family. And so Max Clark. Clark, Russian-speaking wife, he's an asset of the CIA, he's working at General Dynamics. This couple is really a central node in this whole scene that we've been laying out, and their names are practically unknown. You know, Max Clark, it's not a guy who has any cachet, really. And in fact, we talked about the length of George de Moran Schilt's testimony. I think it's like 165 pages or something like that in the Warren Report exhibits. Max Clark's, by contrast, is a mere 13 pages.

and Jenner didn't even bother to show up to depose Max Clark, instead sending his junior associate to take that deposition. And so being at this nexus between the CIA and the white Russian community, it may not surprise you, listener, to learn that Max Clark also, also worked as a lawyer for George de Moran Schilt and became a personal friend of George. We already mentioned two possible motivators for George DeMoran Shield's first contact with Lee Oswald, but there's also a third contender too, and it's Max Clark. Before DeMorinshild had testified to the Warren Commission in spring 1964, where he reported

that George Bowie was responsible for turning him on to Lee and Marina. George had told the FBI in Portel Prince, Haiti, that it was Max Clark who rang his bell about the Owswalt. And if anything, this being the earliest and maybe most, shall we say, unjaded testimony from Georgie, it seems even more plausible yeah and i was even thinking it's possible that in the epstein narrative that i just read a minute ago that the associate of j walton more who handed demure and shilt oswald's address maybe that was actually a reference to max clark you know it's impossible to know for sure

sure, but given the earliest report refers to Max Clark, that perhaps he's really the guy who put the two together. And given all that we've discussed about general dynamics and their dirty dealings with the Kennedy administration, their potential bribery of Lyndon Johnson, and their securing of this TFX contract through potentially illicit means, well, if the head of security for General Dynamics in Fort Worth is the guy hooking up Oswald to his presumptive CIA handler in the person of George de Moorinshilt, well, that seems like a pretty big deal to me. I don't know about you, Dick. Yeah, yeah, it does.

Yikes. And it gets even crazier. You want to tell him about the other General Dynamic Security man? Yeah. Well, you know, you have to have the other intelligence agency represented in North Texas, right? To have the interest of the military industrial complex, the private and public partnership between these companies and the government. So the other guy who worked closely in the General Dynamics Security Division with Max Clark was a fella by the name of I.B. Hale. He was ex-FBI and was married to a Texas Employment Commission employee by the name of Virginia Hale, who just so happened to do Lee Oswald a solid and hook him up with a job shortly after his arrival from Minsk in 62. This is a classic move to control an asset. And it's honestly, it's pretty basic, right? You do the person a favor, in this case, get Lee a job in a welding company,

and take an interest in their well-being, their family's well-being, and effectively curry some loyalty. And it wasn't just the job, you know, de Morin Schilt, both George and Jean. John hooked up the young couple. And remember, when they first arrived, they're 22 and 20 years old, respectively. So these are really young kids, these Oswalds, and the much older Damorinschilds are introducing them to all these wealthy old Russians. They're getting Marina hooked up with a brand new wardrobe of, one estimate from Jean de Moran Schild like a hundred dresses.

They are really taken them under their wing and plying them to kind of serve as putty, or at least they're trying to do that. I don't know how successful they were. But interestingly, the Max Clark, I.B. Hale, Virginia Hale general dynamics angle of it doesn't end with Virginia's assistance in setting Lee up with a job at Leslie Welding in Fort Worth. In fact, the hails have potentially a role to play in, yeah, that other intelligence agency, the FBI, and its concurrent. designs against John F. Kennedy.

And that was run apparently through their adult male sons. You want to tell this little barn burner of an anecdote? Yeah, and this is based on an article by a well-known researcher Bill Simpich. So the Hale's two sons were caught breaking into the home of a woman, known to have been one of JFK's mistresses, as well as mistress two prominent mobsters, Sam Giancana and Johnny Rosselli, a woman named Judith Campbell. Now nothing was stolen during the break-in, so it seems like it could have been a bugging mission instead. The FBI curiously declined to investigate after concluding that the Hail Boys were the ones who

done it. How did they know that? Well, the hail boys could just imagine these knuckleheads. Imagine these guys. This is amazing. Yeah. These chuckle fucks drove all the way to Campbell's L.A. apartment from Fort Worth in their daddy's corvette. And now, of course, Jay Edgar Hoover,

who was obsessed with the Kennedy's sex lives. He obviously had an FBI man parked outside of Judith Campbell's apartment. And so he was taking down this whole affair just watching these dudes go inside the apartment, leave the apartment. He took down the license plate on the Corvette, Texas plates, of course, and matched it to ex-FBII agent i b hail and this was one of these things when i read it in the simpitch article i really was it was almost too incredible to be true and so i did follow up and look for the primary sources and listener wouldn't you know they're right there on the mary feral website the fbi report and everything, matching the plates to I.B. Hale, mentioning that he's ex-FBI, and it's your classic case of

letting it drop, right? Let's not look into this too much. Who knows, you know, exactly who in the line of reporting was the one to put the kibosh on any further follow-up on this? But needless to say, the FBI, lets this break-in drop by the wayside their old agent ib hale then by then comfortably employed with general dynamics is none the wiser that the little plot that his grown boys were running had been brought to the fbi's attention and i think that the clear implication of this whole mission is that general dynamics itself and this circle around LBJ's political allies in Texas and the businessmen who financed and supported that political movement, which was really their agents in the government, well,

They were running their own ops against Kennedy. The FBI was running ops against Kennedy, which intersected with the FBI's ops on the mob. And the official powers that be in Washington were allowing all of these little rats to run around and sniff out that stinky cheese. you imagine like the phone at campbell's house or even like any one of these apartments where it's like a FBI guy breaks in to bug the phone they open the tap they open it up and they're like oh shit there's like three other bugs in here and so like just like I guess I'll just sort of jump the

line just like chalk that these apartments are just chalk full of bugs like everywhere all sorts of agencies I mean hell the mob might have have had her bugged themselves, too. Right, exactly. Like, these apartments are just bursting at the seams with listening devices. And again, the running theme of Eskimo Brotherhood, we have JFK, in case the detail slipped through the cracks listener, JFK sharing a girlfriend with two of the top mobsters in the country who were high up on the list of prosecutorial targets of Attorney General Bobby Kennedy.

So it's a tangled, tangled web here in Texas. We're, I don't have a picture of this Roselli guy. He wasn't a looker, I bet. Well, his nickname was handsome John. Oh, was it? Yeah. Man. Well, because here's my thing is like, uh, You know, there's a lot of this myth on JFK being a looker. And I think I want to say right here, and now that at least my position is both John and Jackie were mid as fuck. Totally. Yeah, most overrated looks.

My thing is like, I would take Jerry and Betty in their prime. Yeah. Yeah, same. But I guess if you're comparing them to, like, Dwight and Mimi Eisenhower. or Lyndon and Lady Bird. Lady Bird and Lyndon. Okay, well, I'll give this one a pass. If Roselli was handsome, John, I'll give it a pass.

But of course, Giancana was, he was much more homely. So I think Judith Campbell, she wasn't basing her romantic decisions on looks alone. She saw deeper than that. What's the future? How time Lettide, You so It's so

It's always But, Now, You're happy, You're Sustlily, live good

I'm so I so glad, I so glad All right I'm All right, so meanwhile, you know, that was going on, you know, that was going on in L.A. In L.A., you know, that was going on in L.A., And I think we might as well pick back up with our story with the Oswald's back in Fort Worth.

Yeah, and so I guess the way we do that is just for the sake of brevity that between the summer of 1962 and Easter, 1963, the De Mooran Shield and the Oswald become the best of friends. notwithstanding the difference in age, education, wealth, sophistication, and just about everything else. The elder couple showers their young friends in gifts. I think you mentioned the hundreds of dresses, right, to Marina. But they do more than that, right? They help them relocate to Dallas so they can be closer to each other. Anyone familiar with the two cities, Dallas-Fort Worth, will know that Dallas is a much more cosmopolitan town. They introduced the Oswalds around the white Russian colony, and they hook Marina up with temporary housing when the couple fights.

And over the course of these months and through the many interactions that George has with Lee, He takes a great liking to the young ex-Marxist, claiming to admire his idealism and honesty. Yeah, and for example, Lee apparently gives George a draft of a manuscript that he had written about his time in Russia for George to provide some feedback. George and Jean invite the Oswald's to a big Christmas party with all the members of the colony there represented and throughout this whole time they're having these conversations about politics, about Russia, about America,

about just about everything. And according to George, he really sees in Oswald something of a son figure. Like George de Moran Schilt writes in his memoirs about having been disappointed that his own adult children, I think he had a daughter who was married at the time to kind of a military stiff type of an American guy in Texas. He talks about how he thought that guy was kind of a materialist, kind of a superficial, shallow person. And by contrast, he got along really well with Lee Oswald as a guy who was concerned with talking about big ideas and deeper questions.

The listener will be well familiar with this sort of dynamic. because we've laid out so many relationships like this in our 30 plus or however many episodes we've been doing, right? As you're speaking, you know, the relationships of Art Vanderberg and Jerry Ford or Julie Sandberg and Jerry Ford, uh, the Coopers and JFK, you know, we've covered this tale before where you have the older couple sort of taking a younger couple under their wing and sort of, seeing the younger versions of themselves or whatever it is in that couple and cultivating it. And all the while, George DeMorin Schilt was keeping his CIA contact, J. Walton Moore, up to speed on his relationship with Lee Oswald. This is like, you know, we just spent 20 minutes.

or whatever, talking about all the different stories about how DeMorin Scheld met the Oswald. And this is why none of that really matters, right? Because what we know for a fact is that once the relationship took off, DeMorin Schild was reporting to Moore. And what puts it all under suspicion

is that Moore and DeMorin Schild give very different takes on the nature of their relationship to the Warren Commission. So whereas DeMorin Schilt is very forthcoming, he says he spoke with more about Oswald. He basically asked permission from more if it was going to be copacetic with the CIA that he has this relationship with Oswald. And according to DeMorin Schilt, Moore said, yeah, he's just a harmless lunatic. And that becomes a bone of contention

because Moore actually denies having regular conversations with DeMoran Schilt about Oswald and really downplays the level of interest that he and the CIA had taken in Oswald. And, of course, by now, the listener is very familiar with all the obfuscatory tactics employed by the CIA in the conduct of the Warren Commission's investigation, everything from outright lying about facts

to omitting facts and records, to misdirecting investigators. So I think more has the less credible of the takes when his testimony butts up against DeMorin Schilt's testimony. Folks, whenever you have the testimony of a citizen put up against a government agent, whether it's a law enforcement officer or what, Remember that there's like clear records of like cops and FBI agents being like, well, it's not testifying. It's testifying. It's testifying. Especially CIA, which, you know, CIA agents are very clear that they will lie in order to protect operational secrecy and confidential information.

So it's not even something that you'd expect them to be telling the truth about to the extent it intersects with any operational work that they're undertaking. I mean, at the point where someone is tied to the CIA by that point, you're like, I can't really trust anything you say, right? Your whole job is deception and, you know, espionage and all. of that. So it's like, what do I even take it, take your word for? And one more thing on this same point. As I was perusing some of the testimony transcripts from the Warren Commission, a lot of times you actually see Jay Walton Moore described by the

name G. Walter Moore and other sort of permutation. on his actual name, which is another kind of classic thing that you see of misspellings of changed order of words. The same goes for you hear George de Moran Schilt regularly refer to Oswald, not as Lee Harvey Oswald, but as Harvey Lee Oswald. And it also just so happens that U.S. military intelligence, had a file on a Harvey Lee Oswald as well. So these games and these little shrouds and shades

that dance around the facts are thereby design very frequently. And in fact, I feel like scratching, the researcher scratching their head over weathered, something is there by design or whether it's just an accident or whether it's incompetence or what is itself a part of this process that the confusion is a purposeful effect absolutely but the CIA wasn't the only, the CIA wasn't the only intelligence agency that DeMoran Schilt was in contact with either, was it? No, besides discussing Oswald with the CIA, DeMoran Shield also introduced Oswald to Admiral Henry Bruton of Drumroll, the Office of Naval Intelligence,

Although apparently the two didn't get along when Oswald spoke ill of the Marine Corps in the Admiral's presence. Yeah, this is another one of these maybe deliberately, maybe accidentally enigmatic episodes in the DeMorin Schult Oswald saga, where blithely, George DeMorinshilt refers to taking the Oswald's to some kind of of a swimming party, I guess the Bruton's had a pool at their house. And so they go over there for swimming and barbecue and Oswald is just shit talking the Marines, like, it's the worst years of my life. Fuck the Marines. And Bruton almost throws him out of the house. This according to DeMorin Schilt. But again, it's like, one, why did DeMorin Schilt? have this friendship with an admiral and naval intelligence in the first place. Yeah.

I think we could guess by now why that is. And then, too, you know, what's the game plan in parading Lee Oswald around to all these spooks? Yeah. And meanwhile, I think you made a reference to the fact that the Oswalds were a couple that was not without it. problems in the domestic sphere so they're bickering all the time at some point marina is staying with some russians who are friends of the demureen shilts away from lee and apparently at some point george demureen shilt gives lee a real dressing down about his abusive attitude and even physical abuse towards Marina.

According to Max Clark, apparently, George DeMorinshilt had told Lee that he would beat him to a pulp if he laid another hand on Marina, which is ironic because in one of George de Moran Schilt's many divorces, one of his earlier wives had reported, that he kicked her in the stomach and hit her on the head with a hammer. God damn.

So not exactly a model of the fair and good treatment of women. No. Well, George would say that she had it coming. I guess. I guess he would. And he didn't have nice things to say about Marines. either, to be fair. Well, I'm sure he thought she was, you know, an absolute smoke show.

The sort of the couple described Marina as entitled and lazy. Apparently she wouldn't do much of nothing. Yeah. She was also apparently quite a bad mother that instead of milk or formula, she would feed her babies like sugar water. And, yeah, although you mentioned that George, thought she was a smoke show, that's not according to George, because what he said was that Colonel Orlov thought she was a smoke show, but he thought that Marina was mid. He wasn't turned

on by her. To my friend the colonel, she was quite beautiful. To me, she was less so. She looked rather disheveled, didn't make any particular impression on me, not well kept, with bad teeth, and not too orderly. She had mousy blonde hair, but she possessed a certain undeniable charm. Her features, nothing out of the ordinary, were quite regular. Oh, man. Right. So I guess it was, the whole thing was a letdown it's like the whole thing was a letdown so why are you spending all of your time doting on this couple and it only all roads kind of lead to the exact type of intelligence babysitting role that many of the jfk researchers have assigned to george and jean

DeMorinshild and what we're trying to get at is to tease out how that actually works in practice because I don't think it's as simple as somebody gives a set of instructions. Now you, George DeMorinshilt, you know, keep an eye on Lee Oswald and do this with him and do that with him and bring him around, I think it's a lot more understanding what motivates George de Moran Schilt, understanding his own personality quirks and desires, and setting things up so that he can help to establish this legend of Lee Oswald that has the fingerprints of intelligence all over it and in between the period of summer 62 and spring of 63 when the de morin shilts leave dallas for Haiti accounting for oswald's time in such a way that moves

him on the chess board towards November 22nd. It was unfortunate, I thought, that my own daughter lacked equality. I liked and admired in Lee, his idealism, his dreams. But a dreamer in our modern world is terribly handicapped. and that was probably the reason why so many people considered him a failure and a loser. I put it in quotation mark, failure and loser. Maybe, had he lived longer, he would have joined the ranks of loved children, had grown a beard and would have been a sage of

some amusing sessions here in Dallas. Let me say something that both my wife and I had an element of pity for this forlorn individual who was groping for something, trying to find the truth. We spoke to him as if he were our son, and I'm sure that if we were in Dallas at the time, We would have known what Rhee was planning to do, and he would have told me. In a way, therefore, I identified Lee with my lost son, and because of the difference of age, he could have been my son.

Possibly, he felt it and appreciated it. Maybe that's why he had accepted our interference, in his private life. Also he trusted me implicitly and felt that what both my wife and I were trying to do would be beneficial to him. As you may see, we believe introducing people who might help each other

and sometimes it's led to unpleasant results for us. He disliked the Russian immigrants that he met. I think probably he was sincere in considering them as foolish people and also traitors. Actually his dislike and unfriendliness to a Russian colony or whoever did help Marina was because they were really much too lavish. and they gave her so many things they practically spoiled her and the child and Marina was throwing it in his face

look at this I'll just receive this look this they quarreled in front of us and they were fought in front of us and they curled quite bitterly and then of course probably continued quarreling home

and the next day there was someone with black eye but they actually happened she really did it and we sculled him we talked to him That's why it's so easy to be with you, said me once. Everybody else tries to advise me, to improve me.

You leave me strictly alone. You let me be myself. There's plenty more that we could say about the DeMorin Schilt-Azwold relationship, but I think we'd want to just pause on two particular additional episodes in that relationship before in the next episode we'll tie it all together, bring it back to Albert Jenner and back to his interrogation. of George DeMoran Schild. So the first one of those episodes takes place in February of 1963.

And it's somewhat of a handoff, right? And what researchers refer to as the handoff. The Oswalds are sort of shuffled from the DeMorin Shields to the Pains, Ruth and Michael Payne. So we discussed Ruth and Michael Payne a bit in our conversation with filmmaker Max Good, whose documentary, The Assassination and Mrs. Payne, is a must watch for anyone interested in this topic. The very short version of the Payne's story is that they, too, were up to their eyeballs in the intelligence community. Ruth Payne's father worked for USAID, which is famously often viewed and is a CIA front.

In fact, he had some business dealings with George de Mooran Shield himself. Ruth's sister was a salaried employee of the CIA in Virginia. So that's Ruth. And then as for Michael Payne, his mother, also named Ruth was a real Boston Brahman counting among her ancestry

the Forbes family the Emerson's as in Ralph Waldo and the Cabot family her best friend was Alan Dulles's long-time mistress and espionage accomplished

Mary Bancroft but it doesn't end there right yeah it's crazy It's like, you can't get any more spooked up in Yankee than Ruth Forbes Payne Young. That last surname on the list there belongs to Ruth's final husband and Michael Payne's stepfather. And sorry, I'm saying Ruth. just to be clear

Michael Payne's mother is also named Ruth his mother is named Ruth and his wife is named Ruth so when we talk about Ruth Forbes Payne Young that's Michael Payne's mother when we talk about Ruth Hyde Payne

father being William Avery Hyde of USAID we're talking about the younger generation Ruth, the one who befriends Marina Oswald. But back to Ruth Forbes Payne Young. So her husband, Arthur Young, that's Michael Payne's stepfather, well, he just so happened to be an engineer and inventor who developed the Bell helicopter.

and the Bell helicopter company was incredibly close to the CIA. In fact, was a CIA proprietary for a significant amount of time, and its flying machines were a prominent feature of the aerial bombardment of the jungles of Indochina. and we're on the rise at this very time. And Arthur Young was one of these sort of new agey guys, and his wife, Ruth, also got into the new age stuff with him, and they helped to sponsor some CIA-adjacent psychological research, things like remote viewing experiments, telekinesis, telepathy,

all of these sort of woo-woo type experiments that the most famous face of them was this Romanian Andrea Pujarach. And I'd recommend that listeners check out the return of the repressed series with Marcus and Reed and Colin on the Stargate conspiracy, as well as Program to Chill also did another series on that Stargate conspiracy stuff, and it is pretty crazy out there experimentation, which has always been an area of the JFK assassination, that I've thought would be interesting to look deeper into,

but we're not going to do that here. Yeah, it is really fascinating stuff to sort of delve into the extent, the crazy extent to which these guys were so desperate to have the edge in the battlefield that they went to these lengths and really, really let themselves go, right? creatively um very fascinating uh to me it's sort of like a sign of exactly how desperate they were yeah yeah and it's also a sign of the way that families work as units in intelligence right you have this family engaged presumably in totally far afield areas of both intelligence

gathering and analysis on the one hand and operations on the other and both public and private right and for ruth pain you know she was obviously around all of these individuals they were not your classic hard right-wing anti-communists the way that the white Russians were, but they were rather the liberal anti-communist types who were more characteristic of the Georgetown set, right? People with an education, people with a, I think Ruth Payne was, and Michael Payne were members of their local ACLU, you know, real, described as bleeding hearts. but their hearts did not bleed for the red menace. And I'm not even sure if I mentioned this,

but Michael Payne himself, the so-called liberal Michael Payne, well, his profession was also for Bell Helicopter that CIA cutout focused on building machines to rain down, fire, chemical weapons, and painful death on a mass scale over the people of Indochina. So just another tick in that column of all history is family history and things are not what they seem when you're talking about presumptively liberal people in the Dallas-Fort Worth area in 1963. What's funny, this part gets me,

because what's funny about how the pains and the mourn shields did the handoff, right? Like, it's like, what's the social connection? Well, the social connection is that in February, 1963, after their walking tour, surveillance tour, down to Central America and back is over, the De Moorinshields decide to host an organized screening of their travel films from Mexico to Central America. And the pains were apparently into that kind of thing. So they were invited from a mutual friend about this event, and they went, right?

And that's where the pains meet the Oswald. Now, that mutual friend was another oilman named Everett Glover. He worked for Sockney Labs, which is a research outfit under the Rockefeller's vast standard oil empire. Right. Soconi, of course, stands for Standard Oil, S.O. Co. Company. NY, New York, right? After the breakup of standard oil into the smaller regional companies, they take on names like that. Sonocal is the California one. Soconi, the East Coast, and Soconi Labs was one of their very many petroleum research institutions that had

a presence in North Texas. So the story is that, like, Glover knew that Ruth Payne wanted to learn Russian and specifically asked the DeMorin Schultz to bring the Oswald so that you could introduce Ruth to the young housewife, Marina. Yeah, and the DeMoran Schultz were all too eager to show this film. And in fact, there's even some entries in DeMorenchild's government files where he was trying to show this film

in Washington, D.C. He was trying to show it in New York. He even arranged to show it to one of LBJ's military attachets in D.C. And was told by none other than Walter Jenkins that LBJ aid, right, who was helping to set up the Warren Commission in the early days, he corresponded with DeMorinshilt, saying,

if Mr. Johnson is around during your visit, we could set up a meeting. So, and DeMorinshilt, in that correspondence, even makes a veiled threat that, well, if nobody in Washington wants to see this, perhaps there are some Russians in the Soviet Union who would have an interest. So, you know, the idea that George de Morin Schult is, is just being strung along on all of this, I think is also not saying that he's a mastermind of anything or that he knew that the road was leading to a hit of the president, but he was a savvy operator.

Okay, so let's talk about the party, though, and with all this stuff that we've been talking about, there's really this interesting dynamic to be teased out between sort of the official cover narrative and then the operational rationale that's behind the surface. One evening, a geologist for working on the research department of a large oil company. His name was Everett Glover. He worked here in Dallas, asked us to show he and his friends the 8mm movie of our long expeditions from Mexico and Central America. Let's talk about the film.

the de morn shields they did this trip they took videos and they made contact with local and american officials along the way the narrative is that it's tourism and that may well be the main reason why the couple wanted to take the trip in the first place too right like it could very well be that they were like, all right, let's go on a trip down Central America way, right? Yeah, apparently they wanted to go all the way to South America, but there was bad weather or something that they turned back instead. But I think that's right. I mean, it's true that George DeMoran Schilt's son had recently died from cystic fibrosis.

Yeah, I mean, we covered that in our last episode, I think, right? we were saying how the narrative was that they wanted this trip to get their mind off of their son but the logistics and operations of doing a trip like this and gathering the information and from footage and sort of making contact with locals and Americans and sort of literally just like capturing images of the landscape and the towns and all of that it's important to remember this is a time before the internet before google earth i mean satellite imagery was just coming about and it was at a time where the cia was going all out to overthrow castro and restore the u.s. hegemony throughout the western hemisphere so to set up communications to set up intelligence

to set up a framework and network to identify like who's friendly who's friendly who's hostile to scout staging sites for invasions you couldn't just rely on your drones or satellite images you would have to have people out in the field gathering this intel in like a very manual way right right and not in a way that's going to show your hand because at the end of the day the U.S. is not a Spanish-speaking Latin American country. Cuba is. And if you're sending a bunch of G-men in gray flannel suits down to the jungle, something's going to raise some alarm bells. Whereas if you send some tourists with their camera in hand, an older couple, you know that is much less suspicious exactly right it's a husband and wife probably retirement age at this point right like they're older and pretty unassuming yeah this was an amateur type movie but it showed the sequence of our expedition and quite a few people in dallas and even in other cities were uh were shown this film quite a few younger people although generally conservatively inclined,

were interested in meeting Harvey Lee Oswald. Before the showing, they asked him quite a few questions of the same type that I ask him myself so many times, and I have the impression that Lee answered them maybe a little aggressively without hiding his sympathies with a revolutionary movement all over the world. I remember that he especially expressed that night his respect for Che Guevara and for Fidel Castro

that Hadley made him popular that evening. We wanted to discuss this dynamic because the same that there's an official narrative and then a more sub rosa significance to the very trip itself, the same goes for the February 1963, Everett Glover party where the Oswalds are introduced to the Pains, right? There is a superficial, totally innocent purpose and significance of this party.

It's to show the film to people that are interested, and it's to introduce Ruth Payne, who has a yen for learning the Russian language to a conversation party. in the form of Marina Oswald and Marina you know also stands to benefit at this time from a female companion who is closer in age who is maybe closer in life experience I mean at this point not only was Marina wearing out her welcome in the to Moorinshilt family, she was also wearing out her welcome in the colony more broadly. You know, she had this reputation as kind of a leech and an ungrateful one at that, right? She would take the dresses and then she would stay in the houses and they would say, oh, she's staying in bed until noon every day. She's not doing anything to help out around the house. And so none of these other people want anything to do with Marina.

So there's a broader interest in unloading these sort of ne'er-do-well Oswalds onto some fresh blood who would take responsibility for them. An extremely tall, slender woman, dark-haired in her late 20s, whose name I didn't catch immediately, asked me if Marina spoke any English. I said none. Would you introduce me to her? I find her very nice.

My name is Ruth Payne. I did, and to my great surprise, Mrs. Payne began to speak in halting, but understandable Russian. She turned out to be an Easterner who had majored in Russian in some Eastern college and was anxious to practice it.

From that day sprang a friendship. So that's on the surface. Of course, under the surface is this handoff, as you said, where one extremely spooked up family that's about to leave the country entrusts this couple into the care of another extremely spooked up couple. And also the film itself, right? It serves as an operational event. for all the spooked-up couples to come and take note of what the, right, the recon that the

De Moines Shields did and take notes on anything they see that significant or that they would have known to look out for when they're viewing this film. 100%. Yeah. And one of the big takeaways from this cluster. of episodes within this series is to illustrate how the CIA only partially is a government agency within the hierarchy based in Langley, et cetera, et cetera, right? perhaps more importantly, the CIA is a cover of secrecy and an allowance of governmental resources to advance and protect the interests of American industry and business,

especially the arms industry and the oil industry could not be any more important in the Cold War than those two arms of capitalism and you know you often hear about the Cold War being framed as a battle between communism and democracy but communism and democracy are not antagonistic terms to one another. Many of the governments that the U.S. overthrew during the Cold War were democratic and were not communist. You know, Guatemala being a prime example. Yeah, exactly.

Communism being an economic system and the opposite of that, of course, being capitalism. The opposite of democracy would be fascism or, you know, tyranny. Exactly. Right, a monarch that is a ruthless tyrannical monarch. Ruthless, tyrannical monarch, or a system of unaccountable actors wielding the power of the government behind a facade of democracy, which I think is what really describes Cold War America and the United States even to this day, that the areas of the government over which there's democratic accountability and control

have winnowed down to the margins, while the big picture questions like foreign policy, like military spending, like surveillance and espionage, are controlled by a government within a government of sorts, which spans both salaried employees and officers and agents of the CIA. But it also spans all of these extra-governmental institutions, like, for example, the Dallas Petroleum Club, the Dallas Council on World Affairs.

All of these non-governmental institutions are coming together to pursue their independent objectives, and for them it's great when that overlaps with the government's interest and with the CIA's interest, and they do what they can to ensure that they have support when they need it and so this party is a microcosm of that dynamic at play where you have Rockefeller interest looking at it perhaps from an oil exploration perspective right you have certainly uh and obviously the bigger picture of securing the bag, securing control over the entirety of North and Central America

and ultimately the Caribbean. So the... The other key episode to mention around the DeMoran Shield and Oswald relationship comes at what would be the last or nearly the last time the two ever met around Easter time in 1963. The DeMoran Shields were getting ready to leave the U.S. for Haiti, where George had a plum gig lined up thanks to the help from the State Department. Some, including Edward Epstein, have said this was a quid pro quo for his service to the government in minding the Oswalds for about a year. So on their way out, the Dormorans' shields, they went by the Oswalds, they went by the Oswalds, to leave an Easter Bunny for their daughter, June.

But it was at this meeting that Marina apparently showed Jean the rifle that Lee had purchased. And she was apparently complaining to Jean that he didn't have money for the family, but he had enough to buy a gun. We won't get into all the questions swirling around the identification of the rifle here.

here. But what is important for our purposes, I think, is a joke that George made upon hearing this commotion from the other room. And the reason, I mean, the reason we point this out is because this very odd and subjective story provided much of the so-called evidence that Lee Oswald attempted to assassinate General Walker. Yep, and I mean, there's so much about this. I mean, we could have a whole other 10-minute discussion of what a microcosm of the evidentiary case that the Warren Commission relied on, this this little anecdote represents. mainly to make a long story short because this rifle that Lee had apparently just got had taken to go and shoot at General Walker, had buried in the mud and hit it,

and then went back and dug it up again and put it in a closet for Jean de Morinschild to lay eyes on. and it's so you have to believe so many unbelievable facts to actually conclude as the Warren Commission did that the pristine not muddy rifle that was sitting there was also used to shoot at General Walker that General Walker would identify the ammunition as a totally different caliber than this rifle and that George de Moorinshild, who never even saw the rifle, had some suspicion that Lee Oswald was a violent killer,

something that George de Morinschild vehemently denied throughout the entirety of his life, including at the time that he testified to the Warren Commission. And now here is a good place to leave this one off because that testimony will be the jumping off point for our next episode, at which time, as promised, we will get back to Jenner, we will explore the ways in which Jenner, rather than plumbing the depths of the conspiratorial intelligence infested milieu of the white Russian colony chose instead to use his three days with George de Morin Schilt to send a strong message that we are not looking. for a conspiracy here and that we are looking to secure the suspect that we've already identified

the deceased Lee Harvey Oswald in the role of presidential assassin and to make sure that those around him keep their mouths shut about any contrary ideas that they might have. We'll also talk about how Jenner recruited or conscripted the junior attorney Jim Liebler to serve that same cause. So now, I'm Don, and I'm dead, saying farewell. And keep day. Strunele amarely, Whate'o'are have pierdun Fete, galilelele,

With hot-mar castele, Come in cede, Cete'Elele, And so presteakure On the stress mutte Doar dexte Juste, Yeah,

Chama, Chama, Yeah, To someone, she'll, shema, chame, Peeroneverickery, steppe. Plung in nocte, strunelelelele nebune, do you, youubile, say, What, was, no, sa pyrrude. Thank you.