Fourth Reich Archaeology - The Warren Commission Decided 11: White Russians / Black Ops pt. C

Episode Date: April 11, 2025

We return this week with another installment of our deep dive into the impact of Bert Jenner, the Warren Commission lawyer responsible for preparing the Report’s profile on Lee Harvey Oswald.  And boy has this one taken us places.   Recall that we started out this journey in The Warren Commission Decided Episode 10, by illustrating the deep connection between Jenner and General Dynamics, the company that was awarded a record-breaking $7 billion dollar contract to build a state of the art fighter jet out of its facility in North Texas.  When General Dynamics made this deal, Jenner was lead counsel to the company and its controlling shareholder, Henry Crown, and he also sat on its Board of Directors. This matters because a key focus of Jenner’s investigation was the White Russian colony that formed the Oswalds’ social circle in Dallas in the months leading up to JFK’s assassination, and his key witness from that milieu was Lee Oswald’s good friend, George de Mohrenschildt. We spent much of the last two episodes establishing de Mohrenschildt’s ties to the intelligence community, which had a heavy footprint in Dallas and in the Texas oil industry, and which unsurprisingly overlapped with Jenner’s corporate sugar daddy – General Dynamics.  Having taken a brief contextual detour to explore the de Mohrenschildts, their connection to the underbelly of the corrupt Texas military-industrial-oil-intelligence complex, and Lee Harvey Oswald, we return to Jenner this week and cover the nitty gritty of the work he did interrogating the de Mohrenschildts. In some ways, this episode provides a master class on how to interrogate a witness either to elicit – or avoid – certain testimony.  Whether through intimidation, exhaustion, or even weaponized incompetence, Jenner was learned in all the ways.  And in this episode, we show how Jenner deployed all these tricks to divert investigation away from the North Texas intelligence community and get George de Mohrenschildt to provide exactly the testimony he needed to prop up LHO as the deranged love scorned maniac who shot Kennedy. Remember, we are doing all of this to challenge one of the most persuasive anti-conspiracy lines deployed against Warren Commission critics, which is “how could all of those staff lawyers on the Commission really be in on a coverup? They’re independent-minded guys, and respectable attorneys, with no political bag to carry!” We tie it all back together to show that contrary to the popular argument against the Warren Commission cover up, there is ample evidence to show that all it took was a few key individuals like Jenner or Arlen Specter in the right places.  Even without imputing treasonous or criminal intentions to these cover-uppers, we illustrate how they played a crucial role in controlling the narrative of the Commission’s investigation and the ultimate conclusion that Oswald was the lone nut who capped Jack. Only our most loyal fans would have read this far, and if we’ve got that right, please consider giving us a donation on Patreon so that we can keep this project going: www.Patreon.com/fourthreicharchaeologyWe think you’ll agree when we say that now more than ever the world ought to know how and why it came to be that we are, most unfortunately, living in the Fourth Reich.

Colonialism or imperialism, as the slave system of the West is called, is not something that's just confined to England or France or the United States. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. So it's one huge complex or combine. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. And this international power structure is used to suppress the masses of dark-skinned people all over the world and exploit them of their natural resources. We found no evidence of conspiracy, foreign or domestic, the Warren Commission, the science. I'll never apologize for the United States of America.

America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are. In 1945, we began to require information which showed that there were two wars going. His job, he said, was to protect the Western way of life. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders the more easy victims of a big lie than a small one. For example, we're the CIA. Now, he has a mile. He knows so long this is to die.

I'm afraid to be never be secure. It usually takes a national crisis. Freedom can never be secure. Pearl Harbor. A lot of killers. We've got a lot of killers. Why you think our country's so innocent? This is a day.

I'm a national globe. And I'm Dick for a harsh is coming. This is North Break Archaeology. I'm Dick. And I'm Don. Welcome back to the world's only anti-JFK ProJerry Ford JFK Assassination miniseries, the Warren Commission decided. We're picking up where we left off with our deep dive into Warren Commission Council and runner-up for most famous staff counsel on the Warren Commission, Bert Jenner. Now, our return listeners will realize, and I suspect most of you are,

return listeners if not um what the fuck uh but our return listeners will know that the deep dive into jenner has been a multi-part process we are now coming to the end this is our pen ultimate episode on bert jenner and we'll round it out next week with a final piece about not just Jenner, but his junior counsel, Jim Liebler. Before we get started, just a very quick thank you very much to all of our listeners. We are so grateful for everyone who has tuned in, who has liked the pod, who has reviewed the pod, and who has shared the pod. we are forever going to be indebted to our Patreon subscribers we'd like to invite any one of you out there who truly believes in the message that we're giving

to dig deep within themselves searching for that wallet i mean and uh hand us over a couple bucks you can find us on patreon it's patreon.com slash Fourth Reich archaeology, and we're also on social media at Fourth Reich Pod on Twitter and Instagram. And we say this every episode, and I promise you, we're not kidding when we say, we love hearing from you, and we are actively and openly receiving correspondence via email at Fourth Reich Pod at gmail.com That's right.

We really do appreciate all the love and support that has come into our inbox and we welcome any contributions you might give, whether it be monetary contributions

on Patreon or whether it simply be solidarity in the form of a few words. And of course helping us get the word out is the best thing that anyone can do to ensure the longevity of this project, which we can promise has a great deal more ground to cover. And with that said, our excavation

into the Jenner Liebler dream team of selective biographers whose responsibility in the Warren Commission was to write up the goods on Lee Harvey Oswald, the suspected assassin of JFK, and the chosen one to play the role of presidential assassin even before the commission got off the ground. So remember, listener, it should always be in the back of your mind whenever you hear, whenever you hear anything about the Warren Commission that those phone calls that we played way back in the beginning of this series, the first couple of

episodes between J. Edgar Hoover and Lyndon Baines Johnson, that Hoover was adamant that the lone gunman thesis was the one to give to the American people and Justice Department Deputy Attorney General Nick Katzenbach shared Hoover's point of view on that. And so by the time the commission assembled and even started taking testimony in the first place, it was already working towards a predetermined end point.

And so we're going to pick up today's narrative right where we live. left off. We don't want to spend a lot of time recapping so that we can get right to it, but we do think, as always, that it's important to give just a quick snapshot of where we left off because, listener, this is an educational project after all, and we understand that repetition is in many respects necessary to retention. So, Albert Jenner, Commission Senior Council, the Rainmaker, the Chicago superstar lawyer. He was probably the most reputable, best-known superstar lawyer on the entire Warren Commission staff, of course, setting aside the commissioners themselves, and setting aside former solicitor general J. Lee Rankin.

And Jenner led the commission's investigation into the biography and the possible motive of Lee Oswald. And his assistant in that task was Wesley Jim Liebler. And one thing to keep in mind is that Liebler was 24 years younger than Bertie. Jenner. Bert Jenner was a man in his 50s was a gray hair as we call them in the legal profession and Liebler was a gunner, a junior, as we call them, in the old legal profession. So this dynamic is one to keep track of because, you know, Jenner, he's a shot caller among the pair. He was a board member and the prime attorney for General Dynamics, one of the largest military contractors in the U.S. At the time of the Warren Commission, he was running for president of the American Bar Association,

which puts him right there in the elite of lawyers of the entire United States. But he was especially heavy in Fort Worth, where General Dynamics, where General Dynamics, had its conveyor plant and where it had just won for itself the largest ever military contract in the history of the country for the production of the supersonic tactical fighter experimental jet now remember also listener that linden Johnson was suspected of being the key link in securing that contract and of doing so with a little bit of bribery to motivate him. Yeah, you got to grease those wheels.

Grease those palms. Who are you kidding? He's greasing up his whole body. You know LBJ was covered in that sweet Texas tea from head to toe. Now, a key focus of Jenner's investigation was the white Russian colony that formed Lee Harvey Oswald's social circle in Dallas from the summer of 1962 to the spring of 1963. And the key witness from that milieu was Oswald's good friend. In fact, a friend of both Lee and Marina, George DeMorinshield. We spent much of the last two episodes doing sort of a detour

and establishing DeMorin Shield's ties to the intelligence community, which had, of course, a heavy footprint in Dallas, as well as in the Texas oil industry, and of course all of this unsurprisingly overlapped with General Dynamics. We talked about General Dynamics Security Chief and documented CIA asset, Max Clark, who was married to a Russian princess

and who played a key role alongside Spooped-uped-up right Russian George Bowie, and Dallas CIA agent J. Walton Moore. Now, these guys were responsible for connecting the DeMoran Shields to the Oswalds. We also talked about the quote-unquote handoff of the Oswalds from the DeMorin Shields to Ruth and Michael Payne, who both, of course, had a litany of intelligence connections in their own right. Shout out to our good friend Max and his documentary, The Assassination, and Mrs. Payne. Yeah, just to say it one more time, listener, if you've not yet watched it, go out there and do so.

we're not taking any monetary contributions from max we simply believe in the quality of his work and in the substance of what it exposes with respect to the pains and in fact it's one of the reasons why we've chosen not to do as deep a dive into the pains as we are doing with the demoral shilds because to do so would simply be to retread the steps that Max has already taken. So give the man his proppers, find his work, it's streaming on Amazon, wherever else you stream moving pictures. To close out the recap, the snapshot, the snapshot of where we left. things off, it's really a minefield. A minefield of secret, covert connections, leading in many

different directions. And that minefield surrounds the Oswalds. So somebody like Jenner, who's investigating the Oswalds, would inevitably have stepped on one or more of these minds, leading back to intelligence, both official intelligence in the form of the CIA, the Office of Naval Intelligence, the FBI, and also industrial intelligence, the oil industry, general dynamics, etc. I think it's important for our listeners to join us in shedding the simple but ultimately overly simplified worldview that imagines the CIA as a sort of monolith that is pulling all of the strings because the CIA is but one of several intelligence institutions that intersects with and overlaps with several others. And teasing out those different players is part of what we've sought to do in this series within a series within a series. So it's really impossible to see these minds, or it would have been impossible to see all of these traps for a naive investigator. A naive investigator would have scratched his or her head upon

viewing the laundry list of intelligence fingerprints on Lee Harvey Oswald, but lucky for the Warren Commission, Albert Jenner was a pro. He was not naive. And he really was able to pull off the impossible, and doing so with the utmost discretion. And indeed, that's really, we think, why he was such an attractive pick for the staff in the first instance. And so in this episode, what we're going to do, as we promised last time, is we are going to go back to Bert Jenner and... Sit our butts down and listen.

We're going to take a class from the master and see just how he navigated that minefield and came away with a chapter in the Warren Report which describes Lee Oswald as a lone nut rather than a deeply mysterious figure with multifarious connections to any number of corporate and governmental intelligence agencies. So with that, let's get digging. Everybody has skeletons in his closet, and so do I.

But actually, there was nothing really to hide them. my life. I talked and talked and talked. As everybody knows, talking about oneself is the sweeter thing. Then Jenner flattered me. He called me distinguished, handsome, that I knew people all over the world, led colorful life. Was a great Kasanova member of the jet set, et cetera. Agreement was made in this manner, and Jenner is an impressive fellow, and he knows how to cajole people. And I fell for it, and was not fair to my old body. Kalinka, Kalinka my...

Now, General spoke more than I did, offered suggestions, tried to give me answers. I was tired and sick of myself, and I agreed with it. This goddamn interrogation lasted two and a half days, and the same thing happened. to my wife and the poor dogs.

Also, looking at my own deposition, I realized how cleverly Council Jenner eliminated the suggestions I had made. He probably considered them off the record. For instance, I told them, you cannot solve the crime of the century by taking the positions. Hire good detectives, let them calm Dallas, Oakleaf, Fort Worth, New Orleans and Mexico. Not FBI's.

Of course, I have a poor opinion of those overpaid policemen and their big chief. They're always recognizable a mile away. Lots of people hold the same law evaluation of FBI. But I dared to say it in Haiti, and also that Lee Harvey Oswald was a patsy. Naturally, as a result, they tried to crucify me. Hard and soft approach by the FBI agents. My contract in Haiti was in jeopardy. There was a letter from Washington against me.

There was pressure by our friends, by newspapers, by TV company, and finally by the Powerful Warren Committee. I give credit to Mr. Jenner. He is a genius at making me say what I didn't want to say. Now you may ask me a question. Was there a conspiracy on the part of the Warren Committee members? This powerful, impressive group of people. No, I don't think so.

They acted for the internal security of the United States. The dead person is the easiest and the safest to accuse and to condemn. And I'm sure they did quite a lot of research, FBI, CIA, and whatever else they have. All of that money were completely wasted. Definitely there was an heir, that there were no way out, that he was supposed to be an assassin.

And they were not very happy but whatever good was ever said about him is just a feeling that was dislike in their faces when something nice was said about him, saying we know lots of our good friends that think that they didn't mean because they were too frightened,

they were too excited or something. Wouldn't that led you to believe in some hanky-panky, hanky? Now, remember, Jenner was a guy whose talent and his skill, his entire reputation was based on this ability to know the facts and the law and to make a persuasive presentation

basically to avoid showing his cards, right? There is this archetype of lawyers. We've talked about many different archetypes of lawyers on this pod. And Jenner's sort of type was the lawyer who did it all. And putting our lawyer hats on for a second, we think it's important to delve in a little bit to sort of analyze what that means, you know, what it means that Jenner was General Dynamics' attorney. Well, for one, it meant that Jenner could receive almost any amount, any type of confidential

information and keep it within the protective circle of the attorney-client privilege. basically any dirt general dynamics was doing or any, you know, including any of its officers or employees, anything that was going on, they could tell Jenner and not have to be afraid that Jenner would leak that information. In fact, under the rules, under the governing rules of his, you know, state bar, Jenner was duty bound. not to reveal the information so what this meant was you know just like how we talked about how government agents often engage in test to lying where they will sort of say whatever they want to say to help protect or justify the position the government has taken lawyers they can't

outright lie but they can omit information or refuse to give give information based on the attorney-client privilege so they can use this as a shield to prevent disclosure of all sorts of dastardly deeds. And especially in this era, and it kind of comes through, I don't know if listeners will have seen the Irishman, or it's a classic sort of Scorsasian trope, right? The mob lawyer is a guy who holds the secrets of every person. and he may not have a criminal disposition, but he is nevertheless a trustworthy guy because of this protection. It's a circle of silence within which criminals or corporations with

quasi-criminal or totally criminal activities ongoing can entrust that information to their attorneys. Isn't that what happened in the movie The Firm? Spoiler alert for the firm. Oh, yeah. If anyone hasn't seen it. You should see it. It's entertaining, if not dated and fantastical.

But it's a good example of how the attorney-client privilege can come into play. Classic. A shout out to the rendezvous barbecue in Memphis, Tennessee as well. But Jenner, he was the attorney, he was protected by the privilege, but that's not all that he was vis-à-vis General Dynamics. He was also a member of the board of directors. And for listeners who may not be familiar with fiduciary, duties, a favorite concept of Dick and I, I'm sure. Well, board members owe to the company

on whose board they sit, fiduciary duties of candor, means they have to share information with the company if it's relevant to the company, the duty of loyalty, which means that they cannot act adverse to the company's interests, and the duty of care, which is kind of a catch-all that means that they have to take care within reason to advance the company's interest. And so those fiduciary duties besides Jenner's ethical duty of confidentiality compelled him to act in the best interests of general dynamics. So if we're being honest about it, I mean, at a minimum, this creates a massive conflict of interest.

And I say at a minimum because the maximal reading would be that it automatically implicates Jenner in obstruction of justice, right? but at a minimum there is the appearance of a conflict of interest because having Jenner investigate and interrogate people associated with general dynamics well his duty to the company compels him to inform the company of any potential risks that he becomes aware of. Or, alternatively, his fiduciary duties compel him to steer the investigation away from general dynamics, so as not to harm the company. And clearly in Jenner's case, he was not bothered by this appearance of a conflict. Because, well,

Why would he be, right? Lee Oswald, his only connection to General Dynamics was that his brother used to work for them, you know, back in the 1950s. So on paper, there's plausible deniability if you sell the line that General Dynamics is totally tangential and irrelevant to the entire investigation. of the Warren Commission. But here on Fourth Reich Archaeology, I mean, look, we have our hard hats on, we're sweating,

we've got, you know, reflective vests, we're deep underground on this stuff, and the stench of the conflict of interest overwhelms the nostrils, because not only does general dynamics, I mean, a General Dynamics key employee, Max Clark, was the guy who introduced Lee Oswald around town to the spooked up white Russian community in the first instance. So it's like the innocent narrative, as soon as you scratch the surface, flies out the window. And in that vein, I think the upshot of this entire excavation into Jenner's intervention in the Warren Commission is that not only did Jenner override the conflict of interest, but he privileged general dynamics over the, the interests of his client as counsel to the commission, which, at least in theory, was the American people. Yeah, man, I threw up in my mouth like once or twice just from this initial discussion. I know how much more of this I can take. But our goal in these

episodes is to posthumously call out Jenner's misdeeds in a way that's seldom done in literature on the assassination. So, once again, given our experience, we assign a great deal more import to Jenner's role with general dynamics than many other researchers, and we posit that role gave Jenner both the motive and opportunity to steer the commission's investigation away from any signs of conspiracy involving the Texas military oil intelligence industrial complex. And Jenner's skills as a lawyer, that's what endowed him with the ability to get away with it. And what you'll see in our discussions to date and what you're going to see today is that there's plenty of circumstantial and direct evidence that we can follow to show

Jenner's obfuscatory intentions. And perhaps the best source of them all are the post-Warren Commission statements made by George DeMorinschilt on tape. So we're going to draw heavily from de Morin Schultz's six-hour-long discussion with the Dutch journalist Willem Altman's, which I have now listened to more than I'd care to admit. So I think we mentioned this before, but why is DeMorin Schultz so central? Well, he was asked, 1,668 questions by the Warren Commission, most of them by Jenner. He took up almost three days of testimony, and his transcript of his testimony takes up more

paper than any other witness, including Marina Oswald. So it's kind of the basis. It provides the basis of the commission's biography of Oswald. And this, despite the fact that DeMorin Scheld only knew Oswald from about July of 62 until April of 63. So less than a year. Now, before we kind of pick it apart, let's hear a little bit from George on how Jenner ran the interrogation. I was interrogated by Mr. Jenner, a successful lawyer from Chicago. What amazed me in looking backward at my testimony was that whatever good I said about Lee Harvey Oswald seemed to be taken with a grain of salt

as if the decision regarding his guilt had already been formed. And I have to admit that either he was much more intelligent than I was or I was just impressed too much by the attitude of the whole situation and the people at the Warren Committee and I really said some unkind things about Lee Harvey Oswald which I regret I had said and this is more or less the sequence of Mr. General's attitude towards me when I sat there and answered his questions

two and a half days. First it was intimidation. He said to me, I know more about you than you do yourself, so you answer the questions and don't say a single lie. He was very, very cool to me at first. And I answered the questions. Then he started flattering me, how a great I was, what a cosmopolitan person I was, how many people I knew in this world. And probably the flattery worked on me and convinced me that he is a good friend of mine. So finally, at the end of the testimony, at the end of this long testimony, I think he was convinced that I was not in any way involved in the assassination and gave me a lot of compliments and we parted the best of friends. the first time in these years, at my deposition, I realized how cleverly the counsel, Mr. Jenner,

led me into saying things which I did not feel like saying. Now I realize that I behaved like a little boy led by this big, clever boy, in this case a famous trial lawyer. So Jenner used multiple techniques here, right? The classic one, intimidations. Like, what are the things he's doing to get, as de Moineshield says, may say things that I didn't want to say. Right. He's scaring the witness into fearing consequences of noncompliance. And here, Jenner gets a big assist from Warren Commissioner and ex-CIA chief, Alan Dulles. De Mooran Shields' memoir says that Dulles was in the room during his interrogation

and did not say anything throughout the entire two and a half days, I guess, but just sat there as a distant threat. Yeah, that's amazing. And it was like, clearly D'Moran Schilt has respect and fear of Dulles. and it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise to learn that Dulles and Dormorinshild had a history. Indeed, before he became the mass-murdering notorious spymaster of the American Empire, Dulles himself cut his teeth as a public-private intelligence agent, much like the way that we described George de Moran Schilt in the last couple of episodes.

So in that capacity during the 1920s, this was after Dulles had spent time under the wing of his uncle, the Secretary of State Robert Lansing. after that he's working for kind of a mix of interests but primarily as a lawyer and he found himself in that capacity simultaneously representing the interests of his law firm clients the Rockefellers and their standard oil interests and also representing you know either explicitly or on sort of verbal instructions from his uncle and his State Department contacts the interests of the United States of America. And some, namely the ruling class, would say that those interests are one and the same.

or rather that the interests of the United States are just one piece of the broader interests of the Rockefellers and their Standard Oil and their Chase Bank and their vast, vast financial holdings throughout the American economy. But there's quite a bit more connecting Dulles and DeMoran Schilt. And in fact, the family ties go even further back from the 20s to 1917 at the earliest when Robert Lansing attended the wedding of Ferdinand de Moran Schilt and Nona Hazlehurst-McCadu. Remember we talked about that in the last couple of episodes right so it's one big club as george carlin was fond to say and it dates back more than a century these family connections are being made and the connections in one generation

give way to the connections in the next generation so dick do you want to pick up with the point at which Alan Dulles first crosses paths with the DeMorinshilt family lineage in his own right? So in the early 20s, Alan Dulles himself negotiated with Sergius von Morinshield, George's father over purchasing an interest for the Rockefellers in the Nobel Company's holdings in the Baku oil field. before they were nationalized. Dulles went on to continue cultivating Russian emigres as U.S. assets in the Cold War throughout his postings in Europe.

And of course, Dulles was in business with Dmitri von Mourin-Shield in his capacity in the OSS and later an asset of the CIA. Dimitri's co-editor at the Russian Review, William Chamberlain, was a close personal friend of Alan Dulles's. So Dulles' path also crisscrossed a good amount with Georgie Boy himself, as they both worked in that interstitial space between intelligence and big oil. An oil lawyer named Herbert Itkin, who often offered his services as an informant to both the CIA and FBI, claimed that Dulles set up a meeting between him and D'Morinshield in the mid-1950s, after which Itkin would regularly pass D'Morin-Shield confidential information related to oil operations in Indonesia, Burma, and India, where incidentally,

Warren Commissioner John Sherman Cooper was then the U.S. ambassador. You can check out our episode on Kupa, as we've done one earlier in this series. So the implication here is that Timorin Schill was working for Dulles as a conduit or courier of this corporate intelligence information. And to add a layer of intrigue, De Mooran Shield was using an alias, Philip Harbin, which it was corroborated

as belonging to De Mooran Shield by another CIA agent. So remember, Harbin was the birthplace of Jean Demorn Shield. So maybe Georgie Boy picked it as sort of like a cute romantic gesture. tip of a hat tip of a hat to his lady I love that

yeah George DeMorichilt used this name of Philip Harbin as a shoutout a shout out to his fourth wife's home country

totally and the paths of DeMoran Schilt and Dulles continued to intersect at that time, at the time when George first met up with the Dallas CIA, which, of course, as we discussed in the last episode, followed George's junket to Yugoslavia with the International

Cooperation Association, the ICA, which was obviously a CIA cutout. that had been established during Alan Dulles' tenure at the top of the agency. So all of this is to put a finer point on the fact that not only was George D'Moran Schilt generically connected in a deep way to the CIA, but also that those connections directly implicate Alan Dulles himself, which lends all the more weight to the fact that Alan Dulles was sitting there menacingly in the back of the room watching as D'Morinschill responded to Jenner's machine gun-like series of questions over the course of three lengthy.

I mean, I'm sure to DeMorinchilt, they seemed eternal days of testimony. And Jenner was aware of this, too. Like we heard from George, the first thing that Jenner said was, we know more about you than you do yourself. And so part of that implies to George that Jenner is imputed with all the knowledge of Alan Dulles, who's sitting there in the room. But intimidation wasn't the only tactic that Jenner was able to marshal against George de Moritzschild. No, he was also a classic adopter of Lee. leading the witness.

Not allowed in court, right? It's not allowed in court on direct examination. It's not allowed in a deposition. But this is the Warren Commission, baby. The rulebook is out the window. The rule book is out the window. And so what Jenner would do is he would lead the witness to certain conclusions and away from others. so you can think of like a classic one right isn't it true that lee harvey oswald was on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination so basically leaving only a yes or no opportunity to say yes or no right and a quick a quick law school 101 for our non-legal listeners it's impermissible

on direct examination at trial to ask a leading question. That's why you'll hear an objection, right? Objection, he's leading the witness. If you're trying to elicit testimony, you cannot lead the witness to give that testimony. On cross-examination, however, it is permissible, and in fact, almost all questioning on cross-examination consists of leading questions because you're trying to corner the witness into saying

what you want them to say, and you don't want to ask open-ended questions to which you don't know the answer. And here, if we're just looking at DeMoor and Schill's testimony, right, George Boy gave Jenner a lot of hints that would have been right for follow-up. That is, if one were looking for a conspiracy. big if one such example is after describing his work for french intelligence in the u.s. during world war two de mornschild told jenner that he was hounded by the FBI and commented if we didn't have a sad story to discuss the death of the president you could laugh about some of the

activity of the FBI and any lawyer with two brain cells to rub together could not help themselves it's honestly like instinct it begs the follow-up question what sort of activity what do you mean by that when you say some of the activity of the FBI but not bert not Bert not Bert he's a professional he knows not to kick over those stones. And another example involves Jenner's questioning about Oswald's potential status as an intelligence agent. Now, Jenner goes, was there any discussion at that party? The Glover party. That Oswald might be a Russian agent? I never heard that. And that this theory was thrown out because Oswald was broke and that it could not be that way because Russia would not permit one of its

agents to be that penniless. That is an intelligent estimation, but I certainly have not heard that. Or the questioning about De Mooran Shield status as an agent. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent? Never have. Representing... Never, never. Any government?

You can repeat it three times. Any government? No, I could take what you call the Fifth Amendment, but frankly, I don't need to. I have never been an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, except the American government, the ICA, and except being in the Polish Army $5 a month.

Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian government now. It is a contract, but it has no political affiliations. And Jenner just moves on from that, right? Yeah. Just accepts it. He doesn't dig in on what does he mean that he was working as an American agent for the ICA. none of it. He's kind of looking to exclude, to just get enough testimony to exclude the possibility

that de Morantio was an agent. And agent, he uses that term selectively. He doesn't say asset. He doesn't say informant. He says agent, which has a much more specific, narrow meaning that DeMorinschelt would have understood. So on another occasion, Jenner pulls out a letter that George DeMorinshilt had written to his old friend, Mrs. Janet Ockinclas. remember, that's Jackie Kennedy's mother, whom he had befriended way back in the 1930s when he was living with his big brother, Dimitri, and he was becoming a person in the Long Island upper crust social scene. and after the assassination of JFK he wrote a personal private letter to his old friend expressing his condolences

and she turned that letter into the Warren Commission and then Bert Jenner goes ahead and grills him on it so Jenner says now you say in that letter after expressing your sympathies to Mrs. Ockincloss and your very kind comments about Mrs. Kennedy, I do hope that Marina and her children, I understand she has two now, will not suffer too badly throughout their lives, and that stigma will not affect the innocent children. Somehow, I still have lingering doubt, notwithstanding all the evidence. of Oswald's guilt.

Exactly. Now, please explain that remark in that letter. Unless the man is guilty, I will not be his judge, unless he is proven to be guilty by the court. I will not be his judge, and there will always be a doubt in my mind. And throughout my testimony, I explained sufficiently why I have those doubts. and mainly because he did not have any permanent animosity for President Kennedy. That is why I have the doubts.

And that expression in this letter is based on all the things you have told me about in this long examination? Yes. A natural, I would assume, view on the part of any humanitarian person that you just cannot imagine anybody murdering anyone else? Yes. And he, in turn, had been murdered? Yes. And his trial would never take place?

That is right. And on the basis of what little you knew, you had lingering doubts? Exactly. Not because you felt that anybody else might have been involved. No, no. And you had no notion of anybody else and no information of anybody else being involved? No information? I just want to give you an opportunity to explain that.

No, I have no information whatsoever, except what you hear now living in Port-au-Prince from the foreigners read foreign papers. And, of course, there are all of the opinion that Oswald did not kill the president, that there was a plot, that there was, that somebody else. was standing on the bridge

there was a car there on the bridge from where they were shooting that there were four shots and all those things are discussed all day long in Haiti right now in the colony of foreigners

embassy people and businessmen who live in Haiti most of them Europeans of course they discuss it all day long And they are confining their judgment to what they read in the papers they receive? Purely.

From their homeland? Yes, purely. As you know, there are sensational articles being published right now in Europe on that subject. Mr. DeMoring Shield, you know of no supposed facts that you have read in these foreign language newspapers, do you? Do I know what? You don't know if there is any merit one way or the other. No, I don't know of any merit one way or the other. And this remark of yours in the letter to Mrs. Ockincloss was not intended to imply that.

No, no, it was not. It was purely based on whatever was expressed in my testimony, and I think it would be fair to say that I will have that lingering doubt for the rest of my life. You may have an opportunity to read the commission report, which I assume you will. Implication being that the commission report will dispel the doubt. Right? Like, before it's even written, Jenner's out here saying, Yeah, yeah. Don't worry. You'll read the report.

Wait until... Don't worry. Yeah. We'll bring you around. Wait until you read what we have to say about it. And so he did, he led the conversation away from any deep discussion of DeMoren Shield's intelligence activities or shady business connections. Now this next passage is cited in David Talibur. I think it might be well, Mr. De Moineshield. I am trying to make this informal. I want you to relax. May I say, because of the considerations about which you are concerned, I will tend to inquire into these things.

I'm very glad that you do, because you know what I mean. It is probably being in a contrary. Traversial business like I am, international business. Oh, also I gather that you're a pretty lively character. Maybe so, I hope so. All sorts of speculation have arisen from time to time, and I don't mind, frankly, because when you don't have anything to hide, you see, you're not afraid of anything I am very outspoken I understand that you are from the witnesses I've interviewed and from these mountains of reports yes I can imagine by the way

those reports again you see this inquiry is probably going to hurt my business I hope they are conducted some delicately. Yeah, that one's amazing because, again, another total piece of dangling red meat right there for Jenner to grab onto when he says, when he says a controversial business, international business, like, what does he mean by that? What's controversial about being in business, right? And Jenner is just like, pretty lively character.

Yeah. Well, it's almost like he's speaking code to Jenner, too, where he's saying international business. It's like a code word. You know what I mean? Yes. Like Jenner picks up on it and just moves on. He's like, I get what you mean.

destabilizing governments i i'm there um okay and remember how we talked about general dynamics attorney and security chief max clark how he had been the one to introduce de morin shield to the oswald's jenner blithely swoops past georgie's mention of that yeah so what de morin shield says about the clerks. My best recollection. I even cannot recall who gave me their address in Fort Worth.

I don't recall that. Either George Bouhe or the Clarks, because the clerks knew them already. Marks and Garley Clark because they were from Fort Worth, you see, and I think a few days later,

Somebody told me that the live in dire poverty is somewhere in the slums of Fort Worth. I had to go on business to Fort Worth with my very close friend, Colonel Orlov. Instead of asking more about the Clarks, Jenner focuses in on Orlov. And when the Clarks come up again, the exchange is highly interesting. De Mooran Shield testifies that George Bully, expressed physical fear of Oswald at some point, and then spontaneously brings up Max Clark again. Yes, he was that way, you know. Now, Max Clark, naturally, was not afraid of Lee, because Max Clark himself is an athlete, an ex-colonel in the Air Force, I think.

He just disliked him, and he said, to hell with that fellow, because Lee was rude to him. Who was rude? Lee Oswald was rude to Max Clark and to his wife. They invited him on some occasion. This I remember vaguely. They invited him at some occasion to come to their house, and Lee said, well, I will come if it is convenient to me.

Imagine that. an answer of that type. Now, the Clark's, for certainly Mr. Clark, I don't know much about Mrs. Clark, but Mr. Clark is an educated man? Very educated man. And a man of attainment? He's an attorney, is he not?

Yes. Did it occur to you that here is a person who is relatively uneducated, a limited capacity? I think this man had intent. Yes. Being invited to the home socially of a man of capacity. Yes. A lawyer, a leader in the community with a fine service record. What was your reaction to that? Well, Max invited him purely because his wife is a Russian and she would like to speak Russian once in a while. Max Clark comes up again later when George says he was

comforted by the fact that Oswald seemed to be under Clark's surveillance. May I say a few things here that I remember. As I told you before, we met the Oswald's through Buhay. And then we talked about them to Max Clark and again to Buhay. And I ask Mr. Buhay, you think it is safe for us to help Oswald? You did have that conversation? Yes. Why did you raise that question?

I raised the question, because he had been to Soviet Russia. He could be anything, you see, and he could have been, he could be right there, watched day and night by the FBI. I did not want to get involved, you see. And I distinctly remember, number one, that George Bouhe said that he had checked with the FBI. Secondly, that in my mind, Max Clark was in some way connected to the FBI because he was chief of security at Conver. He had been chief of security, and either George Bouhe or someone else told me that he is with the FBI to some extent. You never ask people, are you from the FBI? And to me, to me it is unimportant but somehow in my mind i had this connected and so my fears were alleviated you see

i said well the guy seems to be okay now i am not so clear about it but i have the impression to have talked to to have asked about lee oswald also to mr moore walter moore so next george starts talking all about how he felt surveilled by Moore who is of course not Walter but Jay Walton Moore whom we've discussed at length on this pod

he recounts a story about having his manuscript of his travelogue from the border of Mexico walking trip surretypously taken away from his house at night

marked up by hand and returned with some writing in it. De Mooran Shield couldn't be sure, but his testimony suggested that he suspected more of having done the deed, since Moore was apparently aware of the trip and the typewritten book about it. Shortly thereafter, De Mooran Shield testified that he also discalled Oswald with Moore, and that Moore called Oswald a harmless lunatic. flawless lunatic yeah i mean the big picture here right de morin schild is i wouldn't even say hinting i think he's telling jenner one that he understood oswald to be under surveillance by the u.s government

and that the reason why he felt comfortable interacting with oswald was that oswald was that oswald was already on the radar of U.S. intelligence, whether FBI or CIA, and that, too, that DeMorin Schilt is telling Jenner that the CIA, although, again, DeMoran Schilt is not clear in his testimony whether Moore is FBI or CIA. We know that more is CIA. The point being that DeMorin Schult thought more was surveilling him and not only that more was surveilling him but that more was surreptitiously surveilling him was keeping track of his travels and somehow had demurentzschilt under control. And again, Jenner does not choose to further explore this line of questioning as to why more might be interested in DeMoran Schult's travelogue or as to whom in the FBI was

surveilling Oswald. Even whether DeMoran Schult discussed with Oswald the idea of of surveillance by the FBI and CIA, notwithstanding the closeness of the relationship with Oswald that DeMorin Schilt is describing throughout the whole of his testimony, throughout the whole of his interrogation by Albert Jenner. And so instead, Jenner just parlayes this discussion to ask whether generically DeMoran Schilt thought

that Oswald was an agent of intelligence. Again, using that word agent, not asset, not informant, agent, which cannot be stressed enough, has a specific meaning

that all parties involved in this discussion would understand implicitly. And so to that question of Whether Oswald was an agent, de Moran Schilt replies. I never even thought about it. I will tell you why I thought he never was.

Because he was too outspoken. He was too outspoken in his ideas and his attitudes. If he were really, if he were an agent, I thought he would have kept quiet. This would be my idea. And then Janner asks a series of leading questions, teeing up George to disparage Lee's intelligence. He calls him a semi-educated hillbilly and makes other similar statements that he later express regret about.

Now, something that's not on the official transcript, but is described in the oral history is Jenner's statements to De Moineshield about Marina's testimony being a hot mess. Because later on, we heard from Mr. Albert Jenner, Council of the Warren Committee, that Marina's testimonies were so contradictory, and she had to be called back and repeat on the oath her deposition, dealing with these most important matters. so in sum both the written transcript and george's subsequent statements give a clear impression that jenner was gearing the interrogation to a predetermined end point and that the interrogation was as much an exercise in controlling demureen shield as it was eliciting his testimony at one point george regrets taking the bait and saying bad things

about Oswald. George's ultimate submission to Jenner's spell also reflects another interrogation technique. Exhaustion. So the sheer length and irrelevancy of Jenner's questions put De Mooran Shield off balance and rendered him more malleable. This is a classic technique and one that I'm not ashamed to say that I have used, right? And I think lawyers use all the time because what anyone who hasn't sat in a deposition probably is unaware is that after a couple hours it all starts blending together and you can really get away with asking questions and in fact I'm sure there are workshops on this and CLEs continuing legal education where they'll say like you know wait until after lunch before you start asking the hard hitting questions

right when people are a little uh sleepy eyed maybe a belly's full and they're tired you've gone for maybe four hours already and you got four hours more uh right in the middle of the day is when to really take things up a notch that's right and when you're dealing with something that lasts for three whole days is not hard to imagine that on any given date, let alone over the whole span of the three days, Jenner is lulling George into a false sense of security. He's establishing rapport. I mean, something that occurs to me that we mentioned in our very first Jenner episode is Jenner's dad was a Chicago cop, right? So he actually was suckling on interrogation from the very teat when he grew up around Daddy

Jenner on those streets of Chicago and, you know, he is bringing that epigenetic, memory to bear on his work for the Warren Commission. Now, going past the interrogation of DeMorinshild, and believe me, there's more examples that we could give from... the transcript, but let's talk for a second about how this all gets written up in the Warren Report. Once again, we're going to have to just focus on a few key examples, but there are any number of mischaracterizations of George DeMorenchilts testimony, and a number of George DeMorenchilts' testimony, and of Jean de Moran's testimony for that matter

and of any other number of witnesses and indeed George unlike some of the other witnesses did go on record after having read through the Warren report to say that he firmly believed his testimony had been misreported and if you recall from our Arlen Specter episodes we heard the same complaint from witness Gene Hill about her interview with Arlen Specter. Right, in the same, it's like almost exactly in the same way that Spector sort of used whatever facts he had to make whatever story he wanted about the single bullet theory,

misquoting witnesses, mischaracterizing forensic evidence, all of that. stuff, here too, Jenner basically mischaracterizes the record to line up with the story he wants to tell. Omitting fact, bending fact, twisting fact, outright mischaracterizing facts. So for example, rather than citing de Moran Shield's intelligence connections, which Jenner had assiduously avoided exposing during the questioning. The Warren report describes DeMorin Shield as a highly individualistic person of varied interests. The commission's investigation has developed no signs of subversive or disloyal conduct on the part of either of the DeMorin Shields.

Neither the FBI, CIA, nor any witness contacted by the commission has provided any information linking the DeMoran Shields to subversive or extremist organization, nor has there been any evidence linking them to the assassination of President Kennedy. Yeah, no extremist organizations, but Dick. I don't know about you, I assume you'll agree with me, but I would count the CIA as an extremist organization. Not as a extremist. I would count the CIA, not as an extremist organization. I would count them as the extremist organization. I would count them as the extremist organization. Yeah. Not to mention, of course, the Dallas Petroleum Club, the Crusade for Freedom, the Dallas,

what was it, the Dallas Institute on International Affairs or whatever. These are the extreme of the extremes, ladies and gentlemen. It don't get more extreme. Right. I guess what they really meant was that they were not leftists. And that's just one example. But this next example, I think, is even more egregious of a mischaracterization because it takes George's testimony and actually flips it right on its head. So let's return for a second to this rifle story.

We discussed this in the last episode about, you know, John DeMorinshild seeing a rifle in the Oswald's apartment when they made a visit there in April of 1963 at Easter time. So about that interaction, the Warren Report, and you can find it there on page 192 if you don't believe us, says, according to George de Moran Shield Oswald said that he went target shooting with that rifle okay well let's see

what the transcript says about that and remember well we'll get that to that a second okay let's see what the transcript says about that Mr. DeMorinshield up to that moment is it your testimony that you never knew

and had no inkling whatsoever that the Oswald's had a rifle or other weapon in their home? Absolutely positive that personally, I didn't know a damn thing

about it. Positive. Neither did my wife. I didn't know a damn thing about it. That was good. And as far as you know, your wife didn't either? No. Did you see the weapon?

I did not see the weapon. I won't show it to you then. Was there any discussion about the weapon thereafter? No. No discussion. That ended the conversation. The remark about Walker ended the conversation. There was a silence after that, and we changed the subject, and left very soon afterwards.

And so after George read his testimony, transcript of his testimony, and the Warren report, he was scandalized. Jenner gave me a hint of it during my session with him. Didn't you know that Lee shot a General Walker? He asked me, of course not. My pot-shot joke was a joke in a very poor taste, but a joke. But Marina said, you knew, pursued Jenna. Now, reading for the first time, the text of the Warren Committee report, which had been repulsive for me to touch, I see her statement.

Of course, Marina was confused as usual, or maybe someone told her to use this accusation, that we shall not know. Yeah, and remember, too, listener, that Alan Dulles reportedly said, right, that Americans don't read, so who cares what goes into the 26 volumes, because maybe a few academics would read it,

and they're probably on side anyways in the Cold War. So there was a certain indifference to the, let's say, creative liberties, that the Warren report took in characterizing the testimony, even the testimony that was reproduced in these 26 volumes. Now, of course, after the publication of all of that, multiple authors, you know, whether we're talking about Sylvia Marr or whether we're talking about

Vince Salandria or Harold Weisberg or even Edward J. Epstein did just that and cross-checked the report against the testimony and poked so many holes in the report that it comes out looking like Swiss cheese but

I still think you know, 60 some years later that Alan Dulles's conclusion was pretty correct because you still have the likes of, you know, the anti-plastic surgery public service announcement, Gerald Posner, out here telling people that the Warren report was correct, that they conducted the investigation thoroughly. and that all of their conclusions withstand the test of time. Of course, Jean de Moran Schilt was also scandalized. Frankly, the whole thing calling us to what a report. Spending all the money and bringing us in and taking us back and dragging a little muts, a little dog is there. This is so far remote with complete waste of time.

I had sort of a feeling that they just, wanted to fill in the pages with some kind of nonsense instead of actually digging it and find out yeah and so with the testimony with the misleading testimony of the de morn shields in hand jenner ran that same playbook on the rest of the cast of white russians and he and the junior staffers under him molded the whole portrait of lee harvey oswald around all of the blank spots in his personal story where his intelligence, where his intelligence connections would go. So I think, you know, we're heading towards our brief discussion about Jenner's junior, Wesley Liebler. But before we do, I wonder if you could give us a brief postscript, Don, about DeMoren Shield's life after testifying to the Warren Commission.

Sure. And here we really do want to keep it brief. I would recommend that the listener check out the Solving JFK Podcasts episodes on Oswald in Dallas that really go into the full denouement of the DeMorin Shield saga. But I think for our purposes, we'd like to just pause on a couple of incidents that directly overlap with the Demorinschel Jenner story that we've laid out here. So the first one of these takes place on the night of the DeMorin Schilt's trip to D.C. to testify before the Warren Commission. And it's not quite clear exactly which night this was. given that they did stay in D.C. for some period of time. But George DeMorinchilt tells the story about how they were invited the couple

to dine at the home of Mr. and Mrs. Hugh Ockincloss, Janet and Hugh, the parents, or the mother and the stepfather, of Jackie Kennedy. Very tired by our testimonies, we were invited the evening after our deposition to Georgetown and spend the evening with Mr. and Mrs. Hugh Ocking Close, where we also discovered that everybody's mind was made up that Lee was the assassin. We tried to object, but of no avail. Both my wife and Janet Ockingclose finally cried together. one over the death of her son-in-law, another over the loss of a president, whom she loved and admired.

Of course, they'd already been in touch by letter, as we discussed earlier, and as the story goes, Jean and Janet came to tears in their commiseration over the fallen president. Jean had approached Janet with this heartfelt plea to please you are so rich you people have unlimited money and resources why don't you launch your own investigation she didn't want any investigation she didn't want to know who killed jack why and what for all she kept on telling me that jack is dead and nothing would return him back I had entirely different opinion, just because he was such a great man, and just because he was my beloved president, I would turn every stone on earth to find out who did it, and I want to make sure that that person, it's even too much to call a person, should be punished.

And I couldn't possibly understand how the person, a woman, being so close to the moment, man that was killed so horribly, having no interest whatsoever to continue investigation and finding a person who did it. And here's a complete outsider, which just happens to be, to know how great that man was, wanted the justice to be brought and showed to everybody who actually did it. And we'll play the clip here, but Jean even says, like, what rat? And it's an insult to the rat to say that it was a rat that did it. We even had a fight I had a personal fight

with Jacqueline's mother in her house One thing in the world I wanted to know What rat did it And I'm insulting the rat when I say that Who could possibly Who could possibly commit such crime This was the president

For the first time and a long time Was a young president Completely not interest in any material Possessions because he had them all with the bright brilliant ideas and going forward he was the hope not only our country but the hope of the world well that was a nice and a cathartic episode well that was a nice and a cathartic episode perhaps until a knock at the door there in the Georgetown Mance of the Akin Clause family. And who is there at the door?

Unannounced, Alan Dulles, and actually he doesn't say a word. Just gazes at them. Well, he gazes at them perhaps for a second. But after being let into the house, Alan Dulles corners the D'Amourin Schultz almost as if they were still on record and starts rehashing some of the lines of questioning and putting the grill on them as though they were themselves suspects of the assassination, all of this, in front of their wealthy, society friends all of this in the wake of a tearful emotional breakdown it's extremely creepy and if you look on Google Maps you can you can plot it out and see that Alan Dulles would have had only a few blocks to walk over from his place at 27th and and Q up to the Ockin-Claas, manse, which I believe is at 30th and O, if I remember correctly.

Short walk and you could just picture the guy putting on his gabardine and making waves in a chilly spring eve across the cobblestone streets of Georgetown. well if that wasn't enough to put george and jean in their place and keep them shut the fuck up about any doubts they had as to oswald's guilt they faced a continuous stream of harassment basically for the rest of george's life they returned to haiti but they never lived down their role as friends of the Oswald's and over time they were more and more vocal about their belief that Lee was a patsy obviously that is the motivating factor for George to name his autobiographical manuscript I am a patsy I am a patsy he the title was so nice he had to say it twice so you know for example so you are still in haiti port of prance and it tripled out that you were his friend and the fbi came to talk to you in iatee and

what else happened there so we had doubts about least guilt although the general opinion was he was an assassin and doubts were working on our minds But we did not make any public statements that FBI in any way was connected with the killing of President Kennedy, the FBI or CIA. Never. I thought they were just negligent. However, our statement were of utmost importance to FBI and Mr. Wood tried to force me to deny them, which I refuse to do. Anybody is entitled to his ideas, especially if the facts do not Jarev, I told them. told them. It was a stormy session. As I said before, at the beginning of my acquaintanceship with Lee, I became somewhat alarmed by his extremist views and by the

fact of his having denounced his citizenship. And that's why at the time I asked a fellow connected either with the FBI or CIA I do not remember with which organization for sure. What did he think of Harvey Lee Oswald that I had recently met? A harmless lunatic, he said. Therefore, Lee appeared to us all right. And during the assassination, he appeared to us as a pazzi, because he was a harmless lunatic. So this statement will possibly have made to our close friends and relatives

caused a lot of our future troubles. It took place at the U.S. Embassy. Is the American ambassador president? No. political officer present. Oh, the political officer present. And as in their usual manner, he tried to push me hard to say what, that I never spoke to anybody about Lee Harry Oswald, and nobody called him a harmless lunatic.

Then in a way, he sort of threatened me that life would be difficult for me and so on so on. I do not remember the detail, but that's how the FBI agents act. and this takes its toll on George mentally the marriage breaks apart eventually and at the end of George's life he finds himself in a desperate desperate mental state so a midst a series of conversations that he was having with Edward J. Epstein who we mentioned in the last episode at this point in time in the lead-up to the depositions of the House Select Committee on Assassinations was effectively working as a stalking horse

or an agent of Jim Engleton in tracking down key witnesses, getting them on record before their congressional testimony, and maybe, just maybe, although, in my view, highly probably passing along any information gleaned to Engleton and his other CIA handlers, right? So Epstein contacts DeMorin Schild, he's getting DeMorin Schild on record. He elicits the testimony about J. Walton Moore that we read into the record in the last episode. Well, after one of these conversations with Epstein, but before our friend Gaten Fonzie shows up

to actually get George back under oath again for the House Select Committee, well, George Domorin Schilt dies by a shotgun blast to the head. It was ruled a suicide, but the case was and remains and forever will remain shrouded in mystery. And before we move on, just a final post-script to the DeMorincialt tale on September 5th, 1976. Just weeks before the end of his life, DeMorin Schilt wrote to George Herbert Walker Bush,

the erstwhile CIA director, and the former Andover boarding school roommate of George D'Morin Schult's step-nephew and one-time business partner, Eddie Hooker. Dear George, you will excuse this handwritten letter. Maybe you will be able to bring a solution to the hopeless situation I find myself in. My wife and I find ourselves surrounded by some vigilantes. Our phone bugged and we are being followed every. Either FBI is involved in this or they do not want to accept my complaints. We are driven to insanity by the situation.

I have been behaving like a damn fool ever since my daughter Nadia died from cystic fibrosis over three years ago. I tried to write stupidly and unsuccessfully about Lee H. and must have angered a lot of people I do not know, but to punish an elderly man like myself and my highly nervous and sick wife is really too much. Could you do something to remove the net around us? This will be my last request for help, and I will not annoy you anymore. Good luck in your important job and thank you so much

remember this was when George H.W. Bush was the director of the CIA appointed to that role by Warren Commissioner Jerry Ford and now

Bush wrote back to DeMorrent Scheld let me safer that I know it must have been difficult for you to seek my help in the situation outlined in your letter. I believe I can appreciate your state of mind in view of your daughter's tragic death a few years ago and the current poor state of your wife's health. I was extremely sorry to hear of these circumstances. In your situation, I can well imagine how the attentions you described in your life.

letter affect both you and your wife. However, my staff has been unable to find any indication of interest in your activities on the part of the federal authorities in recent years. The flurry of interest that attended your testimony before the Warren Commission has long subsided. I can only speculate that you may have become newsworthy again in view. you of the renewed interest in the Kennedy assassination and thus may be attracting the attention of people in the media. I hope this letter had been with some comfort to you, George, although I realize I am unable to answer your question completely.

And then he committed suicide a couple weeks later. So it goes. Okay, and that's, we'll close the chapter on Georgie de Morton Schult. Until next time I'm Dick And I'm done Saying farewell And keep digging

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