Fourth Reich Archaeology - The Warren Commission Decided 9: Mind Control Consultants

Episode Date: February 28, 2025

This episode is another installment of our excavation into the Warren Commission’s coverup of the JFK assassination.  We take a break from our dig into the staff attorneys who carried the brunt of the Warren Commission’s legwork to explore a dark and obscure corner of the Commission’s work: namely, the Commission’s retention of a handful of psychiatrists as “consultants.” And wouldn’t you know it, almost all of them have connections to Cold War CIA mind-control experimentation! We are thrilled to have a very special guest to operate the excavator, researcher and psychologist Jeffrey Kaye (@jeff_kaye on Twitter). Jeff, a phenomenal researcher and one of the foremost experts on U.S. biological warfare in Korea, published an article last October on his Substack “Hidden Histories” (which you can find and subscribe to here) entitled “CIA-connected DC hospital chief advised Warren Commission.” In it, he names a handful of psychiatrists who show up in the documentary record of the Warren Commission’s working papers, although mysteriously none were named or cited in the Warren Report or its 26 volumes of accompanying evidence, nor was any of them deposed by the Commission under oath. Should you wish to research them further, they are: Dr. Winfred Overholser; Dr. Bryant Wedge; Dr. Dale Cameron; Dr. Howard Rome; and Dr. David RothsteinThe real focus of this episode revolves around our old friends Allen Dulles and John J. McCloy, who recruited these CIA-adjacent psychiatrists to perform nondescript “consulting” work for the Warren Commission, largely off the books. These doctors either had documented involvement in mind control experimentation, or high-level positions within institutions that worked with the CIA on mind control experiments, such as the American Psychological Association and the notorious Washington DC mental hospital, St. Elizabeth’s. Jeff and Don unpack a bit of information on each, explain what the limited documentary record tells us about their involvement in the Commission’s investigation, and engage in some educated speculation on what might have happened in the blank spots in the documentary record. Remember, the CIA destroyed reams of evidence about its mind control experiments; that was precisely the type of dirty work it did not want the public to know about. And it is unfortunately probable that the same goes for any covert work these guys did for the Commission…Nevertheless, we dig into some fascinating angles here and make a strong case that there was good reason to keep these doctors’ involvement covered up. This episode has it all: Paperclip Nazis, Japan’s Unit 731, CIA Project Artichoke and MKULTRA, and, as always, plenty of bizarre synchronicities and connections to today’s fascist hellscape. Give a listen, find and subscribe to Jeff’s work, and spread the word!Jeff’s Substanck: https://kayej.substack.com/Jeff’s Article on the Warren Commission’s CIA-Connected Doctors: https://substack.com/home/post/p-149463970?selection=47ac8c0e-68d0-46a6-b526-adc4b1c48a41#:~:text=CIA%E2%80%99s%20cozy%20relationship%20with%20StJeff’s Longform Article on U.S. Biowar in Korea: https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/11/21/cia-mkultra-and-the-cover-up-of-u-s-germ-warfare-in-the-korean-war/Jeff’s Interview on Programmed to Chill: https://open.spotify.com/episode/1K0ztAqAFiEjRDvdEwiWvy?si=2I2VLSMDQ0ah5HrBw1z5hQ&nd=1&dlsi=f2fc4e27a93e43ffJeff’s Interview on Blowback Season 3: https://salt.odysee.tv/@schulzeboysenfraktion:6/blowback-s3-bonus-09-germinal-feat:9Fourth Reich Archaeology email: [e-mail] Reich Archaeology Patreon: patreon.com/fourthreicharchaeology

Colonialism or imperialism, as the slave system of the West is called, is not something that's just confined to England or France or the United States. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. So it's one huge complex or combine. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. And this international power structure is used to suppress the masses of dark-skinned people all over the world and exploit them of their natural resources. We found no evidence of a conspiracy, foreign or domestic, the Warren Commission of the science. I'll never apologize for the United States of America.

America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are. In 1945, we began to require information, which showed that there were two wars going. His job, he said, was to protect the Western way of life. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders the more easy victims of a big lie than a small one. For example, we're the CIA. He has a mom. He knows so long that's a guy, afraid of we'd never be secure.

It usually takes a national crisis. Freedom can never be secure. Pearl Harbor. A lot of killers. We've got a lot of killers. Why you think our country's so innocent? This is the CIA. This is Fourth Reich Archaeology.

I'm Don. Dick is off this week. He's been involuntarily committed to the Chestnut Lodge psychiatric treatment facility where he'll be spending a week of rest and relaxation while participating as an unwitting subject of top-secret government behavioral modification experiments. We look forward to his return next week, by which time he will, mercifully, have no memory of his time spent away. And by luck or coincidence, mind control just so happens to be the subject matter of this week's episode. Before I tee it up, I'd like to thank you all once again for tuning in, and kindly enlist your assistance in making propaganda for us. The harsh fact that we are living in the Fourth Reich becomes clearer and clearer with each passing day of the second Trump

administration. We humbly offer our programming here on Fourth Reich archaeology as something of a respite, even a balm, if you will. But it's a respite meant to inform, enrage, insight, and ultimately provide some comfort that you, listener, are not insane for finding the reality that we share difficult to stomach. Indeed, you may take solace, knowing that there are lots more people out there, Dick and myself included, who feel the same way. And with each passing day, we are finding each other more and more. We're making connections, and we're gearing up for that hopefully impending confrontation with the forces of fascism who stare at us through our screens, who monitor our keystrokes, who rip us out of press conferences and town halls

for speaking up, and who see to it that we are excluded from mainstream discourse. Well, not for long. May that day of reckoning come sooner rather than later, and in the meantime, please reach out to us. We love to hear from you, whether it's by email at forthrightepod at gmail.com or on Twitter or Instagram. and of course, if you would like, we would be eternally grateful if you'd throw us a subscription on Patreon and help us ramp things up. We like to think that we're really hitting our stride here about six months into this project, and our latest episodes on Arlen Specter and the Magic Bullet theory, well, we think that those comprise some of our best work yet,

And it's only going up from here. So we hope that you'll check those out, spread the word, and join with us in our community of forthright aware individuals. We're all over the world. This week, we're thrilled to have another very special guest. It's the researcher and psychologist Jeffrey Kay. And with Jeff, we are going to zoom in on an area of the Warren Commission into which very few have ventured.

As a matter of fact, until I read Jeff's October 2024 substack article entitled CIA-connected D.C. Hospital Chief Advised Warren Commission, I was unaware of any documented connection between the Kennedy assassination and CIA, mind control research, other than, of course, the well-known involvement of everybody's favorite spook doctor Louis Jollyon West, aka Jolly West, in the quote-unquote treatment of Oswald assassin Jack Ruby. And we'll touch briefly on Jolly West's involvement in Ruby's treatment, but we're going to save the real meat of that discussion for our future episode dedicated entirely to Jack Ruby. The real focus of this episode revolves around our old friends, Alan Dulles, and John J. McCloy,

and they're largely off the book's enlistment of a handful of CIA-adjacent psychiatrists to perform nondescript consulting work for the Warren Commission. Now, wouldn't you know, these doctors either had documented involvement in mind control experimentation or held high-level positions within institutions that worked with the CIA on mind-control experimentation, institutions like the American Psychiatric Association, and the notorious Washington, D.C. Mental Hospital, St. Elizabeth's. Now, incidentally, St. Elizabeth's has been largely converted into offices for the Department of Homeland Security. Anyways, this is a fascinating conversation. I really am confident that, you're going to enjoy it, and our guest, Jeff K, is really top tier. If you don't already,

you should subscribe to his substack. You should follow him on Twitter, where his handle is at Jeff, J-E-F-F-E-K-A-Y-E. He has done incredible and original reasons. He has done incredible and original research, which really deserves to get out there. So without any further ado, let's dig right in. Oh, help me, please doctor, I'm damaged. There's a plane where they once was a heart. It's sleeping, insubating. Can you please tear it out? There is right there in that jar. All help me with mama, I'm sick, man. It's today that's the day of the plunge.

Oh, the gal. All right. Well, we are extremely excited to have today Jeffrey Kay with us. we have been doing this podcast now for a little over six months and this is our fourth interview and it's our first real sort of cross-generational interview and we are very excited to get your depth of expertise and experience and hopefully at this point all of our listeners will be familiar with Mr. Kay's work and have listened to some of his appearances on sibling podcasts, including the Blowback podcast, as well as Program to Chill. And if not, you know, please go and

check those out. We'll link them in the episode description. But Jeff, welcome to Fourth Reich Archaeology. Thank you so much for being here with us. Great. Thank you. Thank you, Don. Thank you very much for inviting me on. Absolutely. So a lot of what we're going to focus on today, and I think we may very well have further occasions down the line to bring you back, but since we are in the middle of our lengthy series on the Warren Commission here, I was just fascinated by your article that came out last October on this nexus between the Warren Commission, the psychiatric profession, and CIA mind control research. And so I thought, you know, before we get into the meat of it, maybe you could just give

us a brief overview of your background and how you came to researching what we might generally call parapolitics or hidden history. Right. Well, I worked as a psychologist for a couple of decades, and part of my job that I took on was to work with for a torture treatment center. A lot of people don't realize that in the United States, there are various torture treatment centers scattered in major cities across the country, and they see people who've come here from other countries who are seeking political asylum or have been tortured, and they're seeking psychological or psychiatric treatment for the trauma that they endured. But they're also seeking often documentation of what the torture they underwent, because that's part of the asylum

process to create a well, you know, to prove to the courts that you have a well-grounded fear of persecution. That is, you've been imprisoned, you've been tortured, you've been threatened with death, your house has been bombed, whatever. It's some pretty. terrible stuff. And so I took this on as a kind of a pro bono thing. I got a small stipend for doing it. And I did it for a number of years and I became, as anyone who works with these type of people, kind of identified with them. So fast forward to the Iraq War and run up to the Iraq War after 9-11 and the U.S. embrace of torture. And the fact that that torture program famously in the press had been revealed to have been engineered by psychologists contracted with the CIA.

As I later found out, it wasn't just a psychologist contracted with the CIA. In fact, there were portions of the CIA that had worked on the idea of using torture and interrogations for decades. And I was one of a number of psychologists who publicly were opposing this. institutional psychology and psychiatry's work with the government, in particular with the CIA, but also the FBI and military intelligence on these issues. So that by itself is an entry into parapolitics, because if you're going to be taking on the government use of torture, it means you're going to be coming into contact with the CIA and FBI and the other intelligence agencies. Now, I am not much of a public speaker. This came about because of my research. I didn't

seek it out. What I was interested in doing was researching the background to this. I thought I could be of help in that because I had a history background before I became a psychologist. And I'd been a printer. I've done a lot of things in my life, been a cab driver. You know, so what I discovered, you know, was, you know, how the CIA had been involved in the construction of torture. And that went back to, took me back into programs like, which perhaps you've covered on your show as well, Operation or Project Artichoke, Bluebird, the predecessors to the famous M.K. Ultra program. And, you know, one by one, the idols of my field in psychology that I had looked up to, at least in the books, and sometimes knowing people who knew the people who had worked with, as it turned out, the CIA, those idols fell as I discovered that for one reason or another, these people were working with the CIA

and some of the most diabolical kinds of experiments on human beings that you can imagine. So I came to this subject that we're going to talk about today through that, because, It was through that that I came across knowledge of individuals like Mifred Overholzer, who was a psychiatrist, who was the superintendent of St. Elizabeth, the insane asylum, essentially, in Washington, D.C. for decades. And others as well who worked with him. So that's how I came to that. But the other thing that happened and how I came to know about Overholster

was another trend that came off of the torture work was that, the mainstream press, the New York Times, the Washington Post, but also historians, as they came to grapple in the mainstream press with these revelations about CIA torture post 9-11, their explanation of it was that the CIA, excuse me, the, well, yes, the CIA and the Department of Defense had created these torture programs by copying the, you know, diabolical Chinese communists and the North Koreans who had used torture and brainwashing to elicit false confessions about biological warfare during the Korean War. Classic.

Yeah. The enemies made us do it. Yeah, I believed it. I believe because it was in the press. These people, I thought, were against torture. They were writing against the torture. And I, in my naive day, thought that, okay, okay, yeah, well, torture every country tortures, right? Maybe they don't torture today, but maybe that back then they didn't.

did and their country was at stake. It was, you know, it was a savage war. So I kind of believed it. But I wanted to see the evidence, though. And the kind of guy, just don't believe what I'm told. I want to see it in black and white. I want to see the documents. I'm sure you guys appreciate that because I think you do the same thing. Absolutely. And what happened was I couldn't get the evidence. It didn't, it wasn't available to me. There would be, mention of the confessions of these 25 U.S. pilots and navigators for the Air Force and the Marines, but there was, you couldn't read them with one exception. The exception was, some professor in Wyoming had posted, I don't know how he got it, the confession of

Colonel Frank Schwabble, who was the highest-ranking Marine Corps prisoner in the Korean War and the second highest-ranking prisoner overall during the Korean War. And, He was the chief of staff of the first marine wing, giant marine wing of aircraft in the Korean War, and he told everything. This guy told his interrogators, where the orders came from for the biological war, how they were handed down,

what the conception of the project was, how it evolved over time, you know, his feelings about it, a lot of evidence which the Marine Corps itself thought was very, you know, said was very damaging evidence given. When I read his confession, or his deposition, as the Chinese called it, to his interrogators, it didn't seem insane at all. This wasn't, these weren't fantastical tales of torture by some, I mean, excuse me, of a biological warfare created by someone who was tortured. This was a very sober analysis. of what had taken place that seemed quite genuine to me. And when I began to look up names and places that he mentioned, they correlated with external evidence of the places he was talking about.

So he wasn't making this stuff up. I guess you could say he was making it all, none of it up except for the fact that there were biological weapons, but there was a lot of other evidence. Well, that's what I began to look into. And it turned out there was a lot more evidence. But I needed to see the other confessions, and they weren't unavailable. until I finally tracked them down at the Imperial War Museum in London. Very kind people there who allowed me to get a copy of them. Today, somebody else has posted copies of what the Chinese originally posted, not posted, published about it way back in 1952 and 53.

And it is available. You have to know where to look for it or pick up a link. And I've tried to make those links in my articles when I can. can. And the thing was, when these pilots came back from, and they were all returned from U.S. custody, pilots and navigators who had confessed to dropping biological weapons, we're talking about anthrax and plague and cholera and like things, dropped using insect vectors and spray devices and other, you know, small mammals and fleas. utilizing to a great deal what the Japanese biological warfare specialist developed during World War II, Unit 731,

hopefully your listeners are aware of that. And in fact, as it turned out that if you go deeply, I would really take this interview Faroe Field if I did, but as it turned out, the Americans weren't quite ready for a German war. What happened very briefly was that the North Koreans invaded or were, responded to South Korean provocations, invaded South Korea before they were invaded, and the South Korean army crumbled, and the North Koreans pushed them back to the area around Busan. The Americans counterattack famously, led by MacArthur at Incheon, and things weren't looking too good. They got behind the lines of the North Koreans, and then the Chinese entered

the war and smashed the American army, and Marines, who fell way back below the things. 38th parallel again. The city of Seoul exchanged hands like four or five times. And in 1951, things weren't looking too good in early 1951 for the Americans on the Korean peninsula. And they would love to have used nuclear weapons. There was a very serious discussion about that, but they were afraid of the Soviets bomb. So instead they decided they would try out this thing they've been working on for a few years and had it perfected, which was biological weapons. and that's what the campaign was. When Schwabble came back, he was the only officer who was put on trial.

Even then, it wasn't a full trial. There was no right of discovery, but he was a lot of an attorney, and there were expert witnesses, and it was a court of inquiry, they called it, but it wasn't a court-martial. They were afraid of too much information getting out. And one of the psychiatric experts in the Schwabell trial, in fact, the main psychiatric expert in terms of credentials, was Winfred Overholzer, the superintendent at St. Elizabeth's in Washington, D.C.

And he, of course, said that Schwabell testified that Schwabell had been tortured and that anyone under the duress that he had been under would have made up the tales he told. And the Marine Corps turned around and rubber-stamped what he said. And he played his role in the cover-up of the biological warfare, which continues to this day, by the way, obviously, because most historians, the vast majority, if not every establishment historian and a journalist will tell you that there was no biological warfare. So one day, I can't remember how it happened.

I was looking up something about the Warren Commission, and it came up in a totally separate thing, and I decided to run Overholster's name through the Mary Farrell website database. because that's what you do when you're looking up. I was wanting to write more about the trial of Schwabell because I couldn't get, once again, you can't get the documents. I couldn't find the trial transcripts anywhere. And where they said it was, it wasn't, they wrote me back. It's going to take me forever to track this thing down if I can.

But so I said, well, let me see Overholzer. He's one of the main guys I'm interested in. Let's see what they have about him, if anything, because I found other things about the CIA. and Artichoke Operations and etc at the Merrifarral sites so I thought let's see what overholster is involved and what popped up wasn't Artichoke what popped up was the Warren Commission and there was there was John J. McCloy a guy who I didn't know very much about oh yeah he's he's a near and dear to our hearts here for sure yeah I know well I can see why

of course turns out to be very important it sent me down that one guy has sent me down so any rabbit balls, because his hands are in everything. But so John, as you know, John Jay, as I wrote in the article, McCloy, in your last, your listeners hopefully listened to your last episode. That's very, very interesting about the autopsies and the evidence about the gunshots and the wounds and all of that stuff. And the problems with the FBI report, I don't think we have to go over to that again, The main thing being that there was a discrepancy between what the doctors were saying

and the evidence that seemed to be there and what the FBI had said in their report, and it was a mess. There was no straight story just about something as simple as an autopsy and the wounds in President Kennedy. And out of nowhere, John J. McCloy tells a meeting at the Warren Commission, why don't we call in this guy overhaul, sir? Yeah, yeah, let's bring him in. He could talk to the autopsy doctor. doctors. And maybe he could kind of straighten things out. I thought to myself, what? This is

insane. The guy, first of all, he's not a pathologist. He's not, he's a psychiatrist and even more so at this point in his life an administrator, really. I think it's worth just quickly reading what McCloy said at that January 21st, 1964 Warren Commission meeting. He says, I think of an interview between the doctors and Overholzer. Let's find out about these wounds. If his just as confusing now as could be, it left my mind muddy as to what really did happen. Overholzer could tell about that.

Why didn't they turn the body over? Who turned the body over? Who were the people up there? And why did the FBI report come out with something which isn't consistent with the autopsy when we finally see the autopsy? Why would they be bringing him in? Well, one thing I did know about Overholzer was that he had been involved and had led, in fact, the OSS, the Office of Strategic Services, a truth serum study, a very top secret study, run under the auspices of the Manhattan Project, no less.

Wow. Talk about secrecy. To develop a truth serum. Another McCloy connection, too, that McCloy was in his capacity in the, War Department under Henry Stimson overseeing the Manhattan Project and became close even with Dr. Oppenheimer. Yeah. So there's, you know, right, and McCloy, of course, always is interested and is involved in

intelligence matters going all the way back to, at the very least, German sabotage claims and people involved in the lead up to World War II. And then, of course, after the war, he was the Supreme High Commissioner for the Allies in the American Zone anyway and in Germany and was involved in the clemency given to the vast majority of the Nuremberg prisoners who had been put on trial in Nuremberg trials. Yeah, I wanted to say, and sorry to interrupt, I know, I'm sure there's so much on this. but maybe just to punctuate it a little bit and kind of break it down into pieces. So I think, well, maybe why don't you finish your thought on overholster's role in the truth serum work in the Manhattan Project? And then I can pick up with McCloy and the Nazis after that. Okay.

Well, I don't have much more to say, except they claim they came up with a method of using a truth serum, which had differential effects, meaning there is, and hopefully everyone understands this, there is no one truth serum that works on everybody, that you just give somebody substance A. In this case, the OSS had, after experimenting with mescaline and other substances, they settled on an extract of cannabis, and they had some success with that, they claimed. And of course, that was involved in that, was another M.K. a friend. for M.K. Ultron, all of that, George White. And working with the Manhattan Project people,

doing experiments at St. Elizabeth's and who knows where else. Very high-level top-secret stuff. And so anyway, if you want to pick up from that, you said there was something you wanted to say about McCloy. Yeah, I mean, I think that's incredible information that you just have at arm's reach right there. To zoom it out a little bit, I would just take stock of the fact that so far in these couple of minutes here, you've touched on connections between the Manhattan Project, John J. McCloy, George Hunter White, who was on loan.

I think he started OSS, was in Federal Bureau of Narcotics, and then the CIA. Right. And he was close with James Jesus Angleton as well. And, you know, when you were talking about going to Mary Farrell, it just hammers home why we have spent so much time dwelling on the Warren Commission and on the JFK assassination. Because really, it seems like all roads lead there at some point in time. Yes. Whenever you pull a thread in parapolitics,

Almost inevitably, it's going to intersect in some respect. The point that I wanted to make about McCloy was that besides having had some operational involvement in the Manhattan Project during the war, as you mentioned, he was high commissioner of Germany. and in that capacity, he also was involved in signing off on some of the paperclip scientists who were former Nazis or, well, quote unquote, former, right? Right. These are people that conducted heinous human experiments on unwitting and unwilling captive concentration camp victims. people like Kurt Blom

who straddles right over the intersection between biological warfare and mind control research and others like Dr. Volta Schreiber Oh, right. The Nazi psychiatrist who had been in a few different concentration camps, I believe, doing this exact same type of stress, you know, torture, forced confessions, and the like, and was selected by

the counterintelligence corps of the U.S. Army. He was stationed at Camp King during the U.S. occupation and was actually McCloy's predecessor as High Commissioner did not sign off. I'm bringing Schreiber to the to the U.S., but McCloy then did get him his papers and bring him to the United States. All this is just to hammer down the point that John J. McCloy, by the time he gets to the Warren Commission in 1963, he has a pretty deep familiarity beyond just a passing familiarity. Oh, yeah. And he's proven that he will bend things, bend the law, bend the processes, if necessary for a so-called national security purposes. And the other thing your listeners should be aware of a major incident that he was in charge of was the incarceration of the Japanese in concentration camps in the West Coast of the United States during World War II. Always in that biography, that's not a bad biography, that's Kai Bird, that's a biography.

You know, he always, you know, he comes off as if, or at least the cover he wants to present is he's kind of like a man who's, you know, trying to be reasonable about everything, but he always seems to fall down on the side of what's most oppressive. But he even said it at one point, Bird quotes it in the book, you know, if it comes down between national security, and the Constitution, well, the Constitution is just a piece of paper. I'll go for national security every time. And I think that that's what was going on, even with the Warren Commission. I think, you know, he and Dulles were the grand old men, and he, at the time, we're zipping back across time zones here.

But now, to bring it to the warrant, you know, the period of the JFK assassination, McCloy was working for the Ford Foundation, which had been used by the CIA as a cutout for various MK Ultra projects, the funding. They weren't the only one, but they were used. And I believe, and I linked to it in the article, McCloy was involved in setting up things for the CIA

in regards to the functioning of how they use the Ford Foundation at that time. Of course, he was the head of the, he was running the Ford Foundation at that point. Absolutely. Former president of the World Bank. And this guy truly was, you know, if he was one of the, you know, of the elite, the establishment, whatever you want to call it. And that's what, and so here he is that, now, so when he talks about bringing overholzer in to kind of clean up this mess around the autopsy, I'm thinking to myself, when I finally start thinking more about it. Overholzer is kind of a maid man.

He's the guy you bring in. Just like McCloy is a guy you bring in certain instances. If it's psychiatric, and one person when I was researching over Holzer, called him the highest psychiatric official in the federal government. And as I began to look into it, I found, I need to bring up another important point that under Guards who Overholzer was, because the institution that he ran, St. Elizabeth had made institutional agreements with the CIA to take in people that the CIA wanted committed. Sometimes that might be a spouse having a nervous breakdown perhaps, but as a

agreement and then they made after, albeit after Overholster's death, but 1980 made it quite clear, and I linked to this and quoted in the article, that included, you know, people who would be hospitalized for so-called national security purposes to prevent the release of information about, you know, sources and methods, et cetera. You know, so they were running a front for the CIA, not that that's all that St. Elizabeth's was, of course, but they were running, and they were recruiting doctors for the CIA at St. Elizabeth's. They were doing the OSS experiments on truth serums at St. Elizabeth's. I mean, St. Elizabeth, which I hadn't realized before, was a major institutional component of, you could say, the paralegal state. Yeah. Another famous

inmate there was Angleton's idol, right? Oh, I was going to, yeah, Angela Pound. Later on, yeah, Ezra Pound, whom Angleton idolized when he was a young poet at Yale. Yes, and overholster protected him. He gave him, you know, he called him, and he's the one who said that Ezrapan was insane. Well, we could go down the Ezrapan route. You know, but he protected him. He lived at St. Elizabeth's. He became friends with Overholzer.

And so the Overholster thing was an entree as I began to look. I said, well, I don't know. I haven't done much research of my own on the Kennedy assassination in part because there are just so many people doing work on it. that I didn't feel that I could add much personally, whereas nobody was doing work on the biological warfare and Korea stuff. So that's where I felt that I needed to put my efforts. Because I only have so much time in a day, and I'm getting older and only have so much energy left.

But I thought, you know, this was something I needed to look into more, because overholster, when I looked into it, there was another guy in the Warren Commission, records at Mary Farrell that was mentioned because I couldn't find much what Overholzer did. The records of whatever he did are gone for the most part. A couple of letters,

a terse statement. What did he do? You know, according to Earl Warren said, yeah, we hired him part-time to consult for psychics, you know, psychiatric profiling on Oswald and Ruby. Okay, well, where's his work? What did he say? What did he do? We really don't know.

And the one thing we, that was... I was just going to say before, I don't know if you were going to move on to a different to his maybe his successor as consulting doctor but i you know hammering and wedge yeah i before we get to those i just wanted to um lay down the chronology here because like you said there isn't a lot of documentary record on what overholzer did uh and for our listeners, this meeting that you mentioned, Jeff, where McCloy raises the possibility of sending over Holzer to talk to the autopsy doctors, that was in January of 1964. Right.

And so in the bigger picture, as of January 64, the commission is just getting off the ground, it's just staffing up. They have in hand these FBI reports from December of 63 and January of 64, which make a mess of the medical evidence, at least if what you're looking for is a lone gunman to pin it all on. And the famous Arlen Specter deposition of the autopsy doctors that we discussed at length in our last episode. doesn't take place until mid-March of 1964. So without having any proof one way or the other of whether Overholzer spoke with the doctors or what he spoke to them about,

there was the opportunity in those intervening two months or so for that type of intervention to take place. And by the time that Spector sits down with the autopsy doctors, Dr. Humes testifies that he burned the autopsy notes. And so he's working from a fairly clean slate when he gives that testimony that Spector cites as the most critical testimony to supporting the single bullet theory. Right, right. Well, if I were speculating, of course, my first question would be, did overholzer deliver a message to these doctors? As doctor to doctor, shall we say, government doctor to government doctor, as to what they needed to do. I don't know. I have no proof of that. That's just a supposition.

Hold on One more hour And my life will be through Hold on Hold on By the time 64 is over By I think it's in October Overholster is dead

He's passed away And his place is taken though By his successor at St. Elizabeth's Dale Cameron Dr. Dale Cameron took over for Overholzer. Actually, Overholster retired, so he took over for Overholster at St. Elizabeth's in 1962, stayed on there for the next five years.

And he's the one who shows up and takes on the work of helping consult for the Warren Commission on these so-called psychiatric profiles, these biographies of Ruby and Oswald. Now, listener, I wanted to chime in here. just to say, Dr. Dale Cameron of St. Elizabeth's is not the same person and is not related as far as Jeff and I can tell to Dr. Ewan Cameron of the notorious CIA torture hospital, the Allen Memorial Institute in Montreal. Dr. Ewan Cameron, incidentally, was also president of the American Psychiatric Association from 1952 to 53. And then there's yet another suss Dr. Cameron. That's Dr. Ian Cameron, who was in charge of the involuntary treatment of both Frank Wisner and Phil Graham at the Chestnut Lodge

sanitarium in Rockville, Maryland. So just to keep it all straight, yes, there are three SUS CIA doctors, all named Cameron, all operating around the same time. And the one that we're talking about here is Dale. Back to Jeffrey Kay. And one thing that's quite clear, and the same thing happened, you know, I don't if you're familiar with Max Arvo, who did a three or four part series on Jack Ruby and the psychiatrists over at Kennedy's and King website. Very interesting, because what he was able to show was that Louis Joyland West, very high-level M.K. ultra-psychiatrist, entered the Ruby case very, very early on.

And one reason that's of interest in I'm bringing it up here is that West said, basically at the time of Ruby's appeal. And it was Jolly West, it's a very, very famous guy. He's highlighted in Tom O'Neill's book on Manson, Manson family. Also in Dr. Wendy Painting's book on McVeigh. He's another one of these notes. Yeah, everywhere. Everywhere. One of these guys very well connected.

And he, of course, but was documented in there's correspondence between him and what's his name at M.K. Ultra, the guy who was running the show there. Gottlieb. Yes, Gottlieb. And there was Gottlieb, of course, was also involved in running Project Artichoke as well, all of this out of the, at that time, the technical services part of CIA. And so one of the thing I saw was, one of the few things on Overholster there was, was a brief correspondence between him and a Dr. Wedge, which I figured out, was Dr. Bryant Wedge, who was a profile specialist for the CIA and a psychiatrist who worked out of Princeton, a very famous CIA, linked to university. And Bryant Wedge, though, was quite

open that he kind of spilled the beans. Like a lot of these guys are very full of themselves, right? These doctors, I think in a brief back and forth between us in emails, you wondered what was going on with these doctors what's in their heads. Well, a lot of his ego, you know, they want to show how brilliant they are. And even though they may be doing it for the government, they still want to show how brilliant they are. That's a brilliant wedge is this kind of guy. But one thing that interested me about him, again, we don't know what, if anything, he did for the Warren Commission. He just shows up offering help via Oberholzer to the commission. Then there's nothing more about him. We don't know what happened. But looking into

who Wedge was, I was shocked. Wedge wasn't just anybody. Wedge had been at Valley Forge Army Hospital. Oh, yeah. In 1952, 54, he was the assistant, you know, head of psychiatry there, right at the time when, and even in the mainstream press at the time, this was famous in a scandal. The CIA was conducting mind control experiments.

In fact, they were Artichoke experiments. What does that mean? an artichoke experiment. What it meant was they took these returning POWs, not the flyers who confessed to biological warfare, but just army privates and stuff like that, 10 guys from the infantry who supposedly were Reds or had been influenced by Reds or had signed peace petitions when they were at POWs. And they were going to give them what God leave himself at the time called modified truth serum experiment. Gottlie was so excited about this Valley Forge experiment.

He said in a report that really exulting that this was great. This would be, quote, pure medical cover for the mind control experiments. And by the way, these people were released as part of the Little Switch, what was called at the time, Little Switch exchange of prisoners. This was prior to the end of combat in the Korean War in which, as a good faith measure, wounded prisoners were exchanged. And so, as a big switch was the exchange of all the prisoners at the end. But the little switch was these wounded prisoners.

And they were sent under heavy armed guard on the U.S. side back to Valley Forge, Pennsylvania, where they had an army hospital, which the CIA had done work at it, I found even earlier than 52. And they were, you know, the plan was to give them sodium pentothal, methamphetamine, hypnosis, hypnotize them, and also give them a secret drug, which sounds very much like it was LSD. But it could have been another hallucinogen as well. And what they were, you know, just do experiments on them, you know, see what they could get them to do, what they could cough up.

They were interested in all sorts of things, physiological. responses, psychological responses, how, you know, would they break down or not? How long would it take them? What kind of personalities did those people have? They would correlate, they would do personality tests and correlate them to the response to mind control. I mean, they were making a science. You have to understand, these people were scientists, and they were making a science out of breaking down people for the purposes of interrogation and or other types of exploitation of prisoners, turning them into double agents, making them snitches, etc. So here's Wedge, here's a guy who was directly involved in that, corresponding with Overhulsor

around the Warren Commission. What was that about? He's corresponding with the guy who ran the OSS Truth Serum study, and he himself was involved in artichoke experiments. So really, what was really being discussed here? We're just seeing the tip of the iceberg. Maybe there is nothing more under it. I don't know, but there's a lot of smoke here.

And it all kind of comes to a head on July 9th, 1964. At least when I say it head, maybe that's my take on it. Just looking at the slim amount of documentation we have about what these doctors was doing. Right. Of course, we know now that in 1973, the CIA destroyed reams. of evidence about its various iterations of the mind control projects. Right. Yeah.

And who knows if this stuff is buried with that? Even the stuff that we have, people don't look at it. There's no, you know, there should have been tons of books. There should be an encyclopedia. I mean, this was one of the biggest secret government projects ever undertaken after the Manhattan project. M.K. I'm talking of the CIA's mind control work and behavioral experiments. And I only discovered looking through that material is so voluminous. You know, even what we have is a lot, even for one person to take in. And I discovered a whole program that had never been written about before. And I just published about that recently called MK. Decoy was the name of the program to create a device that would give people brain concussions, pardon me, at a distance. and covertly

yeah we'll have to have you back on soon to talk about that one too yeah that was my point is to bring it up isn't we could talk not to talk more about mk decoy but to mention how there's so much even that there's a lot

that was destroyed and then there's the fact that outside of a relative handful of people people like yourselves people like me people like maybe a couple of dozen other people working hard trying to go through volumes of all these secret material, and it's just, it's overwhelming. I mean, the reality of the state, the reality that we live in is very different than the

reality that really unfolded, right? For many, you know, for decades, I thought Nuremberg was the golden light about international law and the way forward. I didn't realize that it had all been undermined. by McLeod and the others only a few years later and released most of the prisoners. You know, I didn't realize that the second largest group of people killed in the Holocaust as a distinct group were Soviet POWs, about three million of them after the Jews. And yet there's not one book, not one book written in the West on this group,

who was the second largest group of individuals killed in the Holocaust by the Nazis. And here we are in 2025 with the leaders of the country doing Hitler salutes on national television and talking about deporting radical leftists for their political beliefs. So that's really what our entire project is. How do we get into this mess and thank God for people like you that are actually. looking into the record and bringing to bear a really sober and serious and level-headed research and analysis to bring light to this material in not a sensational way, but in a factual way and in a way that ultimately must acknowledge the information that will never actually be able

to uncover. Yeah. I figure I'm trying to lay down the documentation at this point really for future generations, hopefully can discover this and build upon it themselves and more becomes revealed. And hopefully that knowledge becomes married to changes in the politics, the political organization of people, I would think of it as the leftist of the working class. and others vis-a-vis, you know, the state apparatus and the economic powers that be so that we can not, you know, just have a better idea of the world we live in, but change that world for the better. But I'll take us back to July 9th because that was a meeting. This is where Dale Cameron, the guy who took over for overholzer,

you know, because they did not have the evidence, as you've pointed out, really, and certainly they just punted the ball and they hoped no one would look or they came up with this magic bullet theory. But the real meat and potatoes of the Warren Commission report, just as the meat and potatoes of the psychiatric evaluations of Jack Ruby, were to paint these guys as, you know, sick, violent, prone individuals. Perfect to be lone nuts, right? People to be, you know, who just go out there because they're sick,

violent, prone individuals. And that's the end of it, you know. Right. Alan Dulles distributed a book at the very first executive meeting of the Warren Commission that had been written, I think, a decade before that made that exact thesis, that presidential assassinations and high-profile assassinations, it's typically done by a lone nut. Yeah.

And ironically, it was McCloy, I think, who chimed in and said, well, Lincoln was killed by a conspiracy. Yeah, right. And it's really funny because there was another sort of disagreement, a friendly disagreement between Dulles and McCloy about whether Oswald was a likely candidate as an intelligence asset. So on one occasion, McCloy says, well, I can't say that I have run into a fellow comparable to Oswald, but I have run into some very limited mentalities in the CIA and FBI. And apparently everybody laughed at this comment, and then Earl Warren agreed with McCloy that it almost takes that kind of man to do a lot of this intelligence work. And yet Alan Dulles commented when this question of whether Oswald was a covert asset for the FBI,

of course, he wouldn't have even considered that. his own agency. But with respect to the question of whether Oswald was on the FBI payroll, Della says, what I was getting at, I think under any circumstances, I think Mr. Hoover would say certainly that he didn't have anything to do with this fellow. You can't prove what the facts are. You know, McCloy, I think McCloy was all on board, of course, with, you know, he wanted things covered up just because he wants, you know, is the business of America's business from McCloy's standpoint. I see it. And keeping the bankers happy and keeping, you know, the machinery of exploitation in the country moving smoothly along. That's what it's all about. You know,

and the Warren Commission needed to put out something that would cement this load nut theory, but it can't be something that's too outrageous. It's in fact they already blew it as it was. They already put out a flawed document and, you know, I don't know that they could have done much different, but I think they tried to keep it going completely off the rails because at this July meeting, which had McCloy and Dulles as the two main commissioners, and they had four of their staffers there, and then they had these three psychiatrists. You know, they had Dale Cameron, Overholster's successor. They had a guy by the name of Dr. Rome, who was the president-elect of the American Psychiatric Association.

And then they had another guy, David Rothstein, who was a staff psychiatrist at the Springfield Federal Prison for, you know, where they sent site cases. And I tried to find more on Rothstein. I haven't had a lot of time. as I, you know, this is a fairly recent interest of mine, and I have other work I'm doing, but but Rome is very interesting to me, again, in part because of Max Arvo's research, because if Jolly West, in his private correspondence to other people, told them that he was recruited to Jack Ruby's, to be Jack Ruby, in charge of, in essence of Jack Ruby's psychiatric assessments by the American Psychiatric Association. Someone, quote unquote, someone, we don't know who, from the American

Psychiatric Association called him up and said and brought him into the case. Someone in D.C. Well, Rome, this guy, Dr. Rome, is as high up as you can get in the American Psychiatric Association. Was it Rome? You know, he certainly must have known on some level, because this was very high-profile stuff in the press. You know, because, you know, what happened was a jolly weather. went to do a psychiatric evaluation of Jack Ruby. And just before West arrives, supposedly, Ruby has his first ever psychotic breakdown. Coincidence. Yeah, what a coincidence.

Just before one of the chief MKL doctors comes to interviews him, interview him he has a psychiatric breakdown, of which he recovers about 24 to 48 hours later. Yeah. And the hallucinations he's having sure sound a lot like somebody on a bad, bad trip. Right, right. It's a lot about persecution complex, right? Oh, yeah. He was responsible for them coming after the Jews.

He saw his own brother's, you know, leg being sought off or something crazy like that. I mean, you know, I'll tell you, when you have, most people have psychotic breaks. They don't have bizarre hallucinations, with the exception of women. who are having postpartum psychosis. But outside of that, it's very rare to have really lurid in extreme visual hallucinations. What people here instead are command hallucinations, audio hallucinations, not visual hallucinations. Those are usually considered organic in nature and or drug-induced. So, you know, I knew that from my training.

So when I'm reading this, I'm going, yeah, this sounds very dubious. And so Rome, but meanwhile, but Rome is there back to the Warren Commission. So they're painting, they're getting together at this meeting, it goes on for seven hours or so, all about the psychological profile of Oswald. And the psychiatrists there, they're all psychiatrists. They weren't psychologists, but it could have been. They just happened to be psychiatrists. And they, you know, they were kind of riffing off of each other.

and egging each other on about how Oswald was a, you know, essentially was a cookold and a pervert and infident and how, because his wife Marina didn't sleep with him, he decided he had to go shoot the president, you know, and they, this is literally what they said. Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, you could just imagine these guys with their pipes smoking and I think they, at one point, one of the doctors refers to his, the only demonstration of his masculinity that he had, his rifle. I know, right, right. It's just, I mean, just bizarre stuff like that, you know, that he was, Oswald had been, for all intensive purposes, cook-holded. He was impotent. He was rebuffed. You know, he had a history of violence. They, you know, they certainly talked a lot. You know,

And they built up this whole case about supposedly him shooting General Walker, this racist right-winger. William Walker, was that his first name? No. Edwin. Edwin. And, you know, interesting enough, there was even an overholster aspect to that. Overholster was supposed to a year prior to the Kennedy assassination,

this right-wing nut had been arrested for. blocking people in desegregation instance or something in the South. And they were going to try and get him off. Yeah, he started a riot at the University of Mississippi when James Meredith came to integrate the student body. Right. And they were going to get him off on, you know, so they wanted to do a, his defense attorneys wanted to do a psych eval and the government said, all right, we're going to give you overhaul, sir.

overholzer. And his attorney, his attorney protested. He didn't want him to do that. And there's another case, I'll just tell you, no one knows about this. I think I just mentioned it barely passing in one of my articles, but I've been working a lot on it. And it's going to be called, Who Killed Susan Rothschild? Susan Rothschild was a little girl who was killed at Camp Zama, in Japan. Her father, was in charge of the Army Chemical Corps projects from work going on with biological and chemical warfare in Japan during the Korean War. And right at the end of the Korean War, just after the end of the Korean War,

his little girl was found dead just yards from his house and supposedly was killed by this crazy sergeant and who was brought into, who they proceeded to the then hypnotize and give drugs and then supposedly had revealed all these other crimes he had done that no one ever knew. The guy was like a Boy Scout leader or something. And an overholster was the main guy brought, they wanted to bring in, but the Army didn't allow it because they didn't want to wait for him to get there. They wanted to get this guy convicted as quickly as possible. Essentially they, you know, it was a quick trial. They interrogated him all. night long until, you know, he confessed at like, you know, two in the morning or something.

And, and, and, but he couldn't remember. He had no memory of it, of course. And it's, it's a very strange tale, but overholster is involved in that one, too. And, and also a lot of weird things about hypnosis and drug use and, and, uh, some connections with what was going on with the biological warfare campaign. I, you know, I can't say more at this point, but it should be an interesting story that people can look out for. So I thought this was all important because I thought that it really showed heavy presumption of CIA influence right at in the heart of the Warren Commission, not just the presence of Dulles, which obviously is in, and arguably McCloy, but of the people there, Cameron anyway, certainly is definitely, he's sitting in there, they're talking

about it. And we know that McCloy entered his mind that maybe the CIA had been involved in this and did some of the other commissioners. And they knew that they weren't getting the full story from either the FBI or the CIA. And they knew that they never maybe could. they've been told, I think, Hoover told them that, or someone told them that, you know, you'll never know for sure if Oswald was an FBI informant or not. They wouldn't even, you know, whoever ran him wouldn't even necessarily tell Hoover, supposedly. And similarly, I think another point in time, maybe not in this case, but I think Dullos had said under testimony or Helms, maybe it was not, I'm sorry, this was different, but mentioning about whether

or not somebody breaking the law, somebody running the CIA would necessarily know that. And they said, no, well, a good agent wouldn't tell anybody who they were running or what they were doing. So there's so much compartmentalization, in other words, in the CIA. But here they are pounding out the story that Oswald is, you know, of course, they ended up not using the material about Marina Online. Oswald and Leah Oswald's supposed impotence and being cuckolded or being, Marina wouldn't sleep him in that night.

So therefore he wanted to kill the president to show he was a man. They didn't use that. Yeah, just in case our, in case the listeners haven't read your article yet, which they absolutely should, I mean, the brunt of this July 9th meeting is that basically your classic Freudian analysis, like fitting Oswald right into the Edipal complex, right? Yeah. His mother was overbearing, and so he automatically had this need to be validated by women, and Marina, with her Russian aloofness and her attitude towards him of living apart from him,

of denigrating his ability to earn money for the family and his sexual impudence all insulted his masculinity to the degree where the only way that he could find validation was, after never having actually been convicted of a crime, was to kill the president of the United States. Right, right.

Just saying it out loud, just shows how, I mean, and there's really, I mean, there's not a great deal in the testimonial record that corroborates that other than the fact that Marina Oswald did testify that Lee wanted to move in together and they talked about it on that Thursday, November 21st, and she said no, and that was that. But that's... Well, actually, she said, no, maybe later. She didn't close the door on him.

Yeah. They take that and they spin out this whole yarn. And again, I think it's worth reading some of this stuff directly from the transcript excerpts, which have been published, which again, it's only excerpts of what's supposedly a 254 page transcript of this seven hour long marathon meeting with all of the psychiatrists, with Alan Dulles, John McCloy, Albert Jenner, Wesley Liebler, Howard Willens, and David Slosson. And so, Dr. Rome says, Here is a man who, in a variety of ways, has been made a cuckold, and has had his nose rubbed in his impudence, literally and figuratively. He comes back.

She is angry. He is rebuffed. And the fact that for him to release his hostility in some way that would be noteworthy and the assassination of a prominent person would satisfy this need. Now he, I think, must have thought about it if he did kill the president, so I think what Marina had a chance to do unconsciously that night was to veto his plan, without ever knowing of its existence, but she didn't. She really stamped it down hard, but that one incident would never, never have been enough.

And Dr. Rothstein chimes in. He might very well have done something like that, or the same thing another time in the future. And Dr. Cameron. At another time, of course, he also had one chance in a lifetime actually of making this kind of contact with the president. Otherwise, he was really after the president, he would have to go to another city, his chances of coming back. That is why I think the prominent person was all he really. was after. And perhaps this was, my God, how about that? I can get the president. I think it is extremely significant with this situation now, and being confronted in a very probable

way by his impotence, that he leaves his wedding ring, he gives as much money as he is able to give her. And then he takes up the only evidence of masculinity that he has ever been able to demonstrate his rifle with him, and now he is going to demonstrate that he really is a man under these circumstances. I think that we have today been able to build up to this point very definitely the kind of psychological background that would make then the subsequent behavior extremely consistent in a psychological sense. Dr. Rothstein again.

I'm not saying that he wasn't going to kill the president until after this argument, but I think this was a big factor in it. Then again, Dr. Cameron, I think if Marina had accepted him, if she had been a loving wife that night, he might have slept late the next morning, and he might not have got the president, but eventually it would have had to have been some way. It would have been a temporary reprieve. And Rothstein again, I think his discomfort

might have been relieved to the point he wouldn't have taken action on it and finally Cameron he would have done it later to somebody else I saw here today today I saw here today I saw the face

was a face I loved and I knew I had to run away Get down on my knees and get down on my knees and get me That big away Still let me get in the Needles and pens And because of all my plight

The tears I'm going to hide Hey I thought I was smart I ain't going to hot Didn't think I'd do Well, now I see She's west to him and read Let her look ahead

Take his love instead And from there she will see Just how to say her knees And get down on her knees Yeah, that's how it begins She feels those needles And things

Hurt me, hurt me Why can't I stop And tell myself I'm wrong They didn't include in the war They didn't include it in the Warren Commission report And I believe it's I've at least seen it reported That this same July 9th, 1964 meeting Was where Alan Dulles uttered his famous quote where he says

nobody reads don't believe people read in this country there will be a few professors that will read the record the public will read very little yes and so you know you and i were discussing over email of who made the final call to leave the psychiatric profile out of the warren report but if that quote actually did come from that meeting maybe it was dulles himself you know And I think that kind of goes back to this Dulles-McCloy left-hand right-hand game that they played a lot throughout the Warren Commission deliberations, where McCloy, like you said, business of the country is business, but at the same time, McCloy was keen to his motto as a lawyer was, always have your ducks lined up in a row. And so I think that was what he was going for with. We need the, we want these psychologists, psychiatrists, we want to have an explanation and Dulles, the sort of more cavalier of the two.

Eh, whatever. Let's leave it out. It's not plausible anyways. According to Ted Schultz, who wrote about this in the New Republic, and apparently supposedly saw the transcripts of this, the, this is all at the Mary Farrell site. He said that it was next doing the psychiatric stuff they were talking about by a staffer. And then I started looking, you know, okay, what could I find on these staffers and what did they say about it? The only one I could find on the record was Wesley, was it Leibler, Leibler?

Leibler, yeah. Leibler was questioned about it by the House Select Committee on Assassinations. And they asked him at one point, there was this psychiatric testimony, and there was this meeting. in July. What do you have to say about that? And he said, well, he only later came to see that the psychiatrist had been kind of overextending their argument. At the time, he didn't see it that way. He went along with what they were saying. So he's not the one. That's all I can say. I don't know about the others. I've looked. Yeah, no, in terms of this meeting, I can't find who would have said it. But the idea that Dulles would have at least been the person, or even

even McCoy, you know, who might have thought this was a step too far, but did Ford, but then Ford, who was a commissioner, apparently picked up on it and put it into a book he published with the co-author John Stiles. Yes. In September 19705, and he brings back this material. 65. Oh, yes, 65. I'm sorry, no, in 65. No, 75, I'm sorry, I've got, that's when Ford is, they tried to assassinate him. I'm sorry. Yeah, in 65, oddly enough, and I think I mentioned this to you, and I'll just throw it out there, so it's not for maybe your listeners love, but it is real and it's out there. According to another Ford staffer, John Stiles died in an automobile accident,

the co-author of this book with Ford on the Warren Commission and Oswald and all this died in a car accident. And this guy, Peter Sechia, who was an aide to Ford, told some oral history guy that, Nelson Rockefeller told him that he thought that Stiles' death was suspect. Or normally, he didn't die like in a drunk, you know, alcoholic, drunken driving accident, but that he had something more suspicious was involved in his death. And that's what Rockefeller, who, if anyone knows about an intelligence world, it's Nelson Rockefeller. Right.

Who, whom, I don't know if you know this, Jeff, John J. McCloy taught tennis and sailing when he was a kid. No, I didn't have it. Yeah, McCloy, he rose up the ranks of society from the hairdresser's son who would go with his mother

as she serviced her wealthy clients in Bahaba in Maine in the summers. And young Jack McCloy would teach their kids' sports. And he eventually became sort of consiglieri to the Rockefeller family. Right. So there's so many different connections.

A big club and we're not in it, as George Carlin like to say. Yeah, right, exactly. So a lot of this stuff that people talk about and think, oh, this is conspiracy or this is coincidence, what it really is, and you just hit the nail on the head, is that these people really are of a milieu. They know each other. they went to school together, their friends, they went to each other's weddings.

You know, when the day that John Kennedy is shot, John J. McCloy is having breakfast with Dwight Eisenhower. Yes. These are his friends, right? These are people, they all hang out together. And so it's not, you know, it's not a conspiracy per se. So even McCloy might think, you know, calls on overholster perhaps because he knows him so well.

and that he trusts him. He trusts him to kind of get those ducks in a row, perhaps, as I put it. And not because he was the head of the OSS truce serum program. But I don't know. It's just that I thought I would have to take this research. It was just a lot of too many coincidences to write off and put it out there. And I'll probably continue poking around with this, But I'm still sticking, I'm going to try and write up my material on the biological warfare and book format because I think it needs to be done.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, your articles put that, there's so much, there's so much that you've unearthed there. So we'll look forward eagerly to that book. Yeah. For your listeners, the thing I'm most proud of was the discovery of two dozen CIA communications intelligence reports that were very top secrets, special code names from the Korean War that the CIA declassified in 2010, a subset of them. And either they were sloppy or they're just so full of themselves, they don't care. I don't know what, but two dozen of them included decryptions of high-level NSA type decrypts from

Chinese and KPA, that's Green People's Army, North Korean Army, communications about being attacked by Durham Warfare. and what they were doing with it and how it was affecting them and how they couldn't do transport and how they were fending off false charges within their own ranks of some of these things. I mean, this was a peek into what really happened. But so far, with one exception, who kind of was equivocal about it, no one else has ever written about it at all.

I mean, in an establishment, either historian or a commentator or a journalist, it's just been, they don't want you to know about it. You would think this would be a huge thing because germ warfare is a weapon of mass destruction. What I'm saying is that a major weapon of mass destruction, a campaign of such use, a terror weapon, really, which is what biological weapons were, took place by the United States and was covered up for 80 years.

Well, or 70 years. And that's 75 years, I guess, now, whatever it is, for a long, long time. And that's important. It's not just about what happened 75 years ago. As with much of this stuff around the JFK assassination, the real story is, why is it being covered up today? Yeah.

Right? This isn't about what happened in 1963 and 64, except by extension, because we're looking as to why are we having trouble getting in the truth out in 2025? Who are the forces behind that? Right. And like you said, the mainstream hasn't been willing to touch it, and I am curious what your reaction is.

I know I'm concerned that the megaphone about all of these issues is now in the hands of people like Tucker Carlson and, you know, the Trump orbit, which seem to be very very. irresponsibly I'm not sure if you're familiar with the expression shit coding a lot of this hidden history to say oh well it was the Illuminati and the Jews or some you know the classic kind of John Bircher style conspiracy theorizing yeah well I am concerned but at the same time I have to say that really this is how it's been going on ever since they're always have been people putting out outrageous stories or twisting it, you know, the right-wing, you know, you can think back to the Marchetti's revelations about the CIA published in the right-wing fascist magazine Spotlight back in the 60s and 70s. And or, you know, the crazy,

you know, stuff that's put out about, you know, it's all overly the work of the masons or it's the work of, you know, linking the CIA material to stuff that's just outrageous and there's no documentation for it, right? So there's been a lot of misinformation, and I believe misinformation comes from the, you know, from within the CIA itself. You know, a big part of what they do is to throw people off the track and to put out multiple narratives. Some of them are limited hangouts and some of them are just outrageous and a mixture of them all. And this is what they do. We're not going to get the truth.

They're going to, unless, you know, the population demands it on a large scale, or there's some kind of change in government of a substantial sort. I don't mean the sort that brought us Donald J. Trump to replace the genocide error, Genocide Joe. Now we have genocide Trump. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's always a concern. I've had to, you know, work through my own anxieties and even depression. You could say not clinical depression, but being down about, you know, the value or the sustainability of my own research and what effect it's really going to have. And I've come to the point now that I realize I'm just, I'm planting seeds. My show with you today is a seed. It's a seed on the question of. the seeds that you yourself are laying down about the Warren Commission, parapolitics

in a larger sense, or the work I've been doing on trying to bring out the reality. Because if you bring out the reality that the United States use germ warfare in a large scale and then covered it up, then that is something about the reality of the government that we actually live in, the society we live in too. So I think it's better always to keep your eye faced towards reality, whatever that may be, as uncomfortable as it may be, because at least that's something true, just like the North Star is true. Or at least it will be for some of the remaining historical period. And you do the best you can.

Absolutely. Well, Jeff, I think that's just about as good a place as any to wrap up our discussion, which, as you said, is just a seed. And I hope that you'll be open to come back in the future and plant a few more seeds. Yeah. Because that's, you know, as far as I can tell about the best we can do until we get some moment. momentum. And if nothing else, it's true that the attention on this stuff is something to latch onto and to introduce verifiable, true, documented information from which a more real narrative about our reality can be woven together.

Right. And I should say for your listeners, I'm 70 years old. I lived through the period of the 60s and the early to mid-70s when so much was happening in this society. In the end, a lot of it was rolled back and it's still being rolled back. But I've seen what can happen when things do take off and people do become mobilized and a lot more truth starts coming out. So I do realize that things aren't frozen in ice and that things do change. In some periods seem to move with a rapidity and a true direction towards progressive politics and towards the truth. And other times you have the retrograde or reactionary times. So it's a mixed bag, but realizing that having lived through times of tremendous change in the past, I am aware that, you know, that means that we can, the same thing can happen going forward in the future. That's great.

Where can our listeners find your work? Well, right now, I'm publishing at Substack. And I put out a substack. I gave it the name Hidden Histories. People seem to like it. And it's actually been one of my most successful publishing platform. that I've used so far. I've been shut out from publishing

at even quasi-mainstream places where I used to publish, and some of them have gone out of business. But people can find me, I think it's K-A-Y-J, my name and then my first initial, kj.j dot substack.com. Great, and we will provide links in the episode description.

And we would like to thank you again, Jeff, for sharing this time with us. And once more, I hope that we will do it again because I... I hope so too. I really think we see things in a similar light. And I know for a fact that you have a lot more very fascinating and more important, you know, original and truly explosive information that falls into your body of research. So thanks for doing what you do. Thanks for coming on the pod.

And I hope you have a great rest of the night. Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. And thank you, listener, for tuning in for another installment of the Warren Commission decided. We'll be back with. yet more Warren Commission lore next week when we dig into a few more of the Suss members of

the Warren Commission staff who helped give the whole thing an air of credibility and prestige that has survived all these years of criticism to the official narrative. On behalf of Jeff Kay and on behalf of Dick, I'm Don saying farewell and keep digging. everything with you and now that we're through I just don't know what to do I just don't know what to do with myself I don't know what to do with myself Make me feel as bad

Because I'm not with you I just don't know what to do Like a summer road See the sun and rain I need your sweet love To be loved Thank you.