Fourth Reich Archaeology - You Don’t Know Jack (Ruby), Part 6–Side B

Episode Date: September 5, 2025

Here it is folks! The end of the line for our series within a series within a series, You Don’t Know Jack (Ruby). Finally, we reach Jack’s tragic end. Just months after his conviction was overturned in October 1966, Jack was beset with a sudden and rapidly spreading form of cancer that would kill him by January 1967 before he got the new trial he had won. Meanwhile, his strong intimations of a conspiracy were muddled amidst his psychotic ramblings about a honky-tonk Kirstallnacht rampaging through the streets of Dallas. One thing Jack got absolutely right, though, was that the country he grew up in and served in uniform had been taken over by Nazis. He’d never get the chance to speak his truth except as a novelty, and we hope that we’ve done him some justice, warts and all. 

Colonialism or imperialism as the slave system of the West is called is not something that's just confined to England or France or the United States. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. So it's one huge complex or combine. Either you are with us. You are with us or you are with the terrorists. And this international power structure is used to suppress the masses of dark-skinned people all over the world and exploit them of their natural resources.

We found no evidence of a conspiracy, foreign or domestic, the Warren Commission of science. I'll never apologize for the United States of America, ever. I don't care what the facts are. In 1945, we began to require information, which showed that there were two wars going to. His job, he said, was to protect the Western way of life. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders the more easy victims of a big lie than a small one. For example, we're the CIA.

He has a mile. I'm afraid of we never be secure. It usually takes the national. crisis. Freedom can never be secure. Pearl Harbor. A lot of killers. You've got a lot of killers. Why you think our country's so innocent?

This is a day. This is a model. This is a model. This is coming. In bed, fourth Reich. Archaeology. This is Fourth Reich Archaeology. I'm Dick.

And I'm Don. Folks, here it is. the end of the line for old jack ruby this week we are releasing on the free feed side b of our sixth and final installment in our ongoing series within a series within a series you don't know jack ruby and rather than do any sort of recap i'm going to say please go back and listen to side a before continuing here. And really, if this is your first time listening, please go back and check out our entire catalog because we're sure you're going to like what you hear. So without further ado, let's get digging. Now just sit back and listen to the music as you concentrate and

relax those flickering lights have a soothing effect and as you watch them you begin to feel every muscle of your body settling back in comfort and rest now think first of relaxing the muscles of the top of your scalp let your thoughts go down over the muscles of your face down your shoulders down your arms to your hands resting upon your knees, then your thoughts down over your thighs, your legs to your feet upon the floor. All right. On to the Warren Commission. The longtime listener will recall that the Warren Commission was operating much like a law firm. It was operating under a rigid hierarchy. Of course, the commissioners were sort of the face of the operation.

We'll call them the partner, so to speak, who were guiding the ship. But the boots on the ground were the council, the lawyers. And you'll recall that the way that the commission's investigation and ultimately the report was generated was by having these teams, conventionally it was done in due. duos, these teams of junior and senior lawyers. The famous ones we covered were Bert Jenner, and Wesley Liebler was the junior to Bert Jenner, and those two covered the profile of Lee Harvey Oswald. We can't talk about these peculiar duos of investigators of lawyers without also mentioning Arlen Spector, Mr. Magic Bullet himself, and Frank Adams was the senior to Spector,

but of course Frank Adams was effectively a flake. He didn't really participate, letting Spector shine on. Now, the Ruby team of the commission, it consisted of Leon Hubert and Bert Griffin and these two were largely they were both iced out of the interrogation maybe don you want to let the listener know why that was sure yeah so the senior member was Leon Hubert I don't know if he pronounced it Hubert because he was from New Orleans Louisiana And so it might have been one of those Creole pronunciations. And he had joined the staff largely at the recommendation of Norland's Congress member, Heyo Boggs. And Hubert or Hubert was, well, he was getting tired of the whole thing by summer.

of 64. Apparently, his day job was in a pretty small law practice in New Orleans, and it was suffering from his absence, and I guess he was also spiraling towards a divorce with his wife at the same time. So all these personal and financial woes divided his attention, and meanwhile, He shared in the frustration of his junior partner, Bert Griffin, who was doing a lot of the legwork for the Ruby investigation and was being foiled on all sides by the leadership of the commission in Washington, mainly by Lee Rankin, who in turn was, of course, issuing. orders on behalf of Earl Warren and the rest of the named commissioners.

So, Bert Griffin is an interesting figure in the whole Warren Commission saga because he is very adamant in all of his multifarious public appearances and in all of the many books that he has published about his Warren Commission experience. that he had no biases and that he was gung ho to get to the bottom of the case and discover the unvarnished truth. And, you know, if you read his transcripts of the depositions that he conducted with various witnesses, there's something to that. I mean, he is going after the issues. and is not pulling punches the same way that a Bert Griffin or a Wesley Liebler or an Arlen Specter was pulling punches, and maybe that has to do with the fact that Griffin came from Cleveland,

Ohio, and didn't have that burning ambition to be the big fish that those other fellas really had. I mean, Griffin spent the majority of his career as a state court judge in Cuyoga County, or however that's pronounced. Caya Hoga. Cuyahoga County. Man, I finally got one on you on the pronunciation. But I think you said Griffin, you know, I think when you, at one point you said Griffin, you meant Jenner but exactly right like you remember that Jenner was at the time

counsel or consigliary to general dynamics and of course became named was it named partner before or after of Jenner and Block I think he was already named partner before but yeah but in any event he was you know he was on that grind set he wanted his life to be more than just himself. He was looking for that come up. I think he ran for a president of the American Bar Association

during the Warren Commission, too. That's right. And of course, Spector goes into Congress, right? He becomes a senator for, what was the, Pennsylvania? So that, you know, that guy was definitely he had aspirations

as well. and not so much Bert Griffin Yeah and the zeal with which Bert Griffin pursued

the truth in his investigation of Jack Ruby brought him into some head to head confrontations with members

of Dallas's finest especially the star witness of Jack Ruby's trial, Lieutenant Patrick Dean. That was the police officer charged with the security of the basement in the police building on the fateful day of November 24th. And we talked in our last episode about how Dean testilied that, Ruby confessed to him that, one, Ruby had been planning to kill Oswald ever since the night of the 22nd when Ruby saw Oswald at the police building during that press conference Ruby attended.

And two, Dean Testa lied that Ruby confessed that he snuck into the basement down the ramp. and Bert Griffin did not believe either one of these lies, mainly because it made no sense to Griffin that Dean failed to note any of that stuff, any of these confessions, until like February of 64 on the eve of Ruby's trial. And so he pursued and pursued to the point of actually calling, Dean, a damned liar, uh, during one of their sessions together. And, you know, if there's one thing that cops do better than lie, or maybe not better, but as good, uh, it is to bitch and moan and complain and so dean did just that after this march 24th testy session with bert griffin

patrick dean goes up the chain of command all the way to district attorney henry wade and whines to him that he was mistreated and harassed by the warranted by the warrant commission staffer who was deposing him. And so Wade, of course, insulted on behalf of all members of law enforcement, indeed on behalf of all Texans, calls Jay Lee Rankin and gets him on the phone and chews him out. And Rankin apparently tells Earl Warren about it. And, And as a result, Rankin promises Henry Wade that they will pull Burke Griffin out of Dallas. And, you know, Griffin was kind of told that he was lucky that he wasn't fired. And nevertheless, Griffin always maintained that Dean totally mischaracterized the conversation, that it was

not confrontational at all, but simply that Griffin wanted the truth and Dean didn't want to provide it. So it spins out of control and out of control, and it really puts a big damper on the ability of this Toosome to investigate the Jack Ruby case. And so eventually Dean gets a trip to Washington and personally is called to finish his testimony, not in front of Griffin, but in front of Earl Warren himself. And Griffin was confined to his office during that deposition, and neither he nor Hubert were invited to participate. The only other commissioner there was Alan Dulles, who did not ask any questions. but just, as George de Moran Shield said, was a threatening presence.

And Lee Rankin, who helped out. So it was a whole to-do, and it really neutralized any truth-seeking that Bert Griffin and, to a lesser extent, Leon Hubert, were attempting in the Warren commission investigation into jack ruby um and i just think this is too funny to leave out but incidentally patrick dean insisting that he was telling the truth requested to take a lie detector test with the dallas pd and they let him and he wrote the questions and he still failed the test And not only did he fail the test, but the Dallas PD apparently destroyed the records of it because the Warren Commission didn't even mention it. They weren't told about it, apparently.

But when the House Select Committee on assassinations requested the Patrick Dean polygraph, they were told that it no longer existed. He's got the trifecta of the police's skills, right, destroying evidence. So he hits all three, this guy. Give him a medal. So all of this inspires Griffin and Hubert to do that classic lawyer move of writing a cover-your-ass memo. Dick, do you want to walk through a little bit of this May 14th Griffin-Hubert memo? Yes.

And when it gets to this point, you got to think, I would think when you get to the point where you put something in writing to your supervisor, essentially criticizing their work, you should expect a negative response. But Griffin and Hubert, they get together and they, right Lee Rankin, and they sort of lay out all of the problems and all of the loose ends that were left dangling during the Ruby investigation. They, of course, talk about how Ruby had a lot of unaccounted for free time, given the relatively light workload of his job running these

clubs like the carousel club and given his large debts and his constant search to hustle some money and of course his many many mob ties yeah basically they said this guy's only working five hours of the day and we have no idea what the hell he's doing the rest of the time he's breeding datsins yeah and so they you know they raised that question they also talk about the Cuba angle they you know

they mentioned that in the late 50s 1959 Ruby inquired concerning the smuggling of persons out of Cuba and that he also admitted at the time that he was negotiating for the sale

of Jeeps to Castro and that he visited Havana in 1959 at the invitation of McWilli, of Lewis McWilley. Of course, that's the guy who he goes and sees at the Thunderbird, right? And, you know, all of this stuff, there's plenty more, right, that Ruby mailed a gun to McWillie in early 1963, that in 1961, it was reported that Ruby attended three meetings in Dallas in connection with the sale of arms to Cubans, and

that he was connected to smuggling Cubans out of the country. And then there is the Fred Brunner incident. You want to cover that? Yeah, I mean, this is just something that they bring up in their memo in the context

of all this Cuba stuff. that they had been approached by an informant, or the FBI had been approached by an informant who identified a guy named Ed Brunner as Ruby's associate in this smuggling endeavor in Cuba. And Hubert and Griffin point out that on November 24th, when asked who was going to represent him ruby named fred brunner as one of his possible attorneys and brunner never showed up in dallas to represent ruby but the memo says that we've got to look into this guy uh you know we don't know if it's true that he was working with ruby on smuggling operations to cuba in 1962 and that might be relevant um they also talk about oswald's cuba connections and the fact that

ruby was aware of oswald's cuban connections correcting famously henry wade about the proper name of the fair play for cuba committee at that friday night november 22nd press conference uh so The memo then goes on to state, after discussing all of this, that, quote, we have suggested that Ruby might have killed Oswald out of fear that Oswald might implicate Ruby and his friends, falsely or not, in an effort to save his own life. We think that neither Oswald's Cuban interest in Dallas nor Ruby's Cuban activities have been adequately explained. In fact, we believe that the possibility exists based on evidence already available that Ruby engaged in illegal dealings with Cuban clients

who might have had contact with Oswald. The existence of such dealings can only be surmised since the present investigation has not focused on that area. Well, one point regarding the West's relationship to all this is, I think we may have mentioned it, but he's in control of all of the reports, the psychiatric reports, that other doctors, who were also his friends, who he brought on, he was in control of those reports, and he would edit them, and you can see in his papers, he's got his line edits of them, and one of the things he takes out is just a clean, neat red line through the sentences that reference, the psychiatrist referencing Ruby talk, telling that psychiatrist about his gun running to Cuba, and West just draws

a line through that. So if you look at him as not just a crazy guy inducing insanity, but also as I'd say a guy acting on behalf of this, yeah, if we want to call it deep state, he's in control of the information and what he does with that information is in line with the kind of what the Warren Commission did as well. It's very similar. Yeah. Yeah, it goes hand and glove with the Warren Commission because in conclusion to their memo, Griffin and Hubert make a bunch of recommendations, among which are recommendations for further interviews and depositions that the commission should take. And one of those was that guy, I think we've talked about him, Robert Ray McKeown, who was

another of Ruby's alleged collaborator. in Cuban arms sales and also Ruby's first lawyer Tom Howard who knew sort of Ruby's first impressions after his arrest and wouldn't you know it the commission declined to interview either one of them they also declined to interview Seth Cantor who had been on the trail of Jack Ruby ever since seeing him at Parkland Hospital on November 22nd, and is the guy who eventually went on to write the book about all of Ruby's mob ties, and the commission did not want to get near Seth Cantor with a 10-foot pole. So it seems like the same blank spots here Ruby's Cuba dealings keep showing up.

police station correcting on the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and he specifically corrects what another reporter had referenced as the right-wing equivalent of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. He corrects to say no, essentially saying, no, it was the left-wing one. I've always thought that is a really wild and revealing thing. It might seem in the weeds of details, but on the night of it, he's correcting a really specific detail that I mean at that point I think you know was in part of the whole handling of the whole thing was to try initially at least to try and pin it on the communists it's just I think that I always think like that's you can't really overstate that I think it's just he's essentially making sure that the official story gets out there on the night of Kennedy's murder that it was this false story you know that that that it was tying Oswald to the to the communists yeah I just want to emphasize that again it's it's a very very specific significant, like the implications are significant at what he was doing and what I would suggest he knew. Yeah, and you're mentioning that reminds me too, with respect to Ruby being a

performer and a curator of his own legend and his own lies about himself, Ruby told the Warren commission that he did not have a gun on Friday night at that. event and that he had made up having a gun so that he could bolster his alibi of remember his old alibi was well you see if i was premeditating the murder i could have just shot him on friday night because i had my gun when i saw him at the police building on friday night and since i didn't shoot him that means that i wasn't premeditated meditating his murder. And to the Warren Commission, he said, no, I made that up. I was just trying to get off the charge. I didn't have a gun with me. Yeah. Well, you can see why people may have wanted to make sure some cannier professionals were around him. Not a guy who could handle it himself,

is he? Yeah. And I mean, in case it's not obvious, I'll just point out as well that the CIA likewise participated directly in brushing the Ruby Cuba stuff under the rug. So Bert Griffin, once again, seek in the truth here, wrote to Dick Helms in early 1964 inquiring for all documentation that the CIA had on Jack Ruby, including with respect to Cuba. Dick Helms, of course, at the time was deputy director of plans, and he would become the head of the CIA in 1966. Famously, he was actually the director who ordered all of the M.K. Ultra records destroyed in 1973, shortly before leaving the agency. So Helms first stonewalls, Griffin. He just doesn't respond. And eventually, he tells Griffin, oh, the CIA would be very limited in its possibility of

assisting. And so Griffin reiterates his request in writing, and Helms finally replies, essentially lying to say that, nope, there's, we looked, there's nothing there. And that, and that reply of there's nothing there remained classified for a dozen years. Just one other point on, I think the, as I'm sure you discuss in lots of places, the sensitivity of the Cuban angle, I say, was, I think it seems to have been right at the forefront of people's minds at these high levels at the time and throughout, I mean, over the decades. And Helms was the guy, you know, it was six days after the Watergate break in that Helms and Nixon have the meeting in 72.

April 72, where Nixon raises to Helms the, quote, the Bay of Pigs thing and as something that was sensitive that Nixon was trying to, according to him, help him out on. And apparently Helms, you know, jumped up from his chair and was screaming about, you know, this has nothing to do with the Bay of Pigs. You know, there's no reason to bring that, you know, extremely angry very suddenly. And at Holderman himself said that he always thought that that was, wrote in his memoir that he thought that was a, a reference to some extremely sensitive secret thing that he speculated was assassination and perhaps the Kennedy case. So that's all just to say that like these Cuban angles and the Cuban connection of Oswald and Ruby and people like that, Mikhailan and all these people, it might seem like it's obscure from kind of our perspective as just regular folk. But for these people, they were,

I think they were, it seems that they were always very scared of it. And it remained, if you take that that, what Nixon was suggesting, you know, to Helms at that time, was in reference to all of the crazy dark stuff that was associated with the Cuban connection, the bear pigs. And then, of course, Cubans on the Watergate Breaking, who were part of that whole world. Yeah, I think this is, this is all just to say. you know that it's the sensitivity to the Cuban connection is is always been a major thing that has seems to have scared people right at the top so when you're talking about cover-ups

and the Warren Commission and everything I think you know that was front of mind yeah when we did our long discussion on Bert Jenner and his interrogations of the Domoran shields then we talked about this phenomenon as landmines, as dodging landmines, like deliberately leading the questions away from the thing that you don't want the deponent to talk about. I mean, it's even, that's the heart of like, whatever you think about it, what's in there or not, you know, the Morley pushing for the Joannidi stuff, you know, in the recent things that have got coverage in New York Times and, you know, got pretty widespread. It's the Cuban side again.

yeah um yeah protecting certain things when talk yeah and it was still the thing that they held on to the titus right now i think it's a good time to talk about how it comes up in the warren commission interview so of course the interview is conducted by the folks that we've talked about right earl warren gerald ford lee rankin and notably not bert griffin of course and not leon hubert and it's really funny because hubert was actually not expressly banned from participating but they just were like yeah don't worry leon we'll tell you when we're going to go and interview ruby and who's like okay i'm going to go home to New Orleans and so he leaves home to New Orleans on June 6th and everybody else catches a plane on June 7th to Dallas to interview Ruby I'm sure they just forgot they're very busy

a lot on their mind yeah and that's the thing is if you're not eager to please the masters in these types of situations you just become utterly disposable like the fucking furniture so those two guys are swapped out for joe ball who is a senior council as well as arlin specter a junior council neither of whom had the foggiest idea of what griffin and hubert had been investigating or had encountered in their investigation of Ruby. So it's not exactly the best people to be performing this interrogation. And it is, I mean, the interview itself, a lot of it is very standard, in fact, and kind of beggar's belief when you read certain passages that Ruby was psychotic at the time, because

he's answering questions he has a very vivid memory to recall these events and to stick to what we have said were most likely lies about for example his conversations with all of his mob buddies his lack of any connections to organized crime etc but there's two things that kind of stick out above all of that one i think we've discussed at enough length already which is of course the psychotic asides of get me to washington my life is in danger your lives are in danger my family's lives are in danger they're going to kill all the jews etc etc he breaks into that a few times seemingly at random And the other thing that sticks out is the discussions of Cuba.

So there's some very superficial lines of questioning that, and this is, you know, reading a deposition transcript as a lawyer, you can kind of tell like, okay, this is their outline, this is the flow that they're going through, and in their outline, their Cuba questions are pretty bog standard. They get the bare minimum out, you know, ask about the 59 trip. about McWillie and don't really follow up very deeply, apparently not having internalized the contents of the May 14th Hubert and Griffin memo. Maybe Rankin had read it.

Probably Warren had not, and they don't probe, I would say. What's funny is there's a couple of times when Jerry Ford tries to probe, and this is where first Rankin and then later Warren kind of steer the whole conversation away from what could be a landmine underneath Jerry's questions. And it certainly reads to me that Jerry's questions are geared towards looking for a communist plot, not a right-wing anti-Castro plot, but, you know, asking about connections to the Castro regime and what, you know, things like that. And yeah, Rankin and Warren, they get quickly back to, well, I think Earl Warren, after Jerry asks a Cuba question and Ruby answers it

and leaves quite a lot of meat on the bone, Warren jumps in and asks, well, is there anything else that you want to tell us, Jack? It's like pulls out the wrap-it-up box and tries to shut it down and does, of course. I mean, Jerry Ford's not going to insist over the chief justice. So, mission accomplished, if the mission is to prevent that whole can of worms from being opened but Warren also shits the bed on another mission and that is

when Earl Warren opens the door to Jack Ruby being polygraphed at the request of Jack Ruby, the President's Commission on the assassination of President Kennedy has today conducted a polygraphic examination. The results, of course, are going to be taken to Washington and there will be no disclosure of any sort until the Commission has analyzed the examination and come to its own conclusions. Gentlemen, I was not in favor, I advise Mr. Ruby, but as you probably know, Mr. Ruby had made this connection had made this connection with Chief Justice Earl Warren prior to my entering into the case. and as I understand Mr. Warren in keeping with the promise that he made the Jack Ruby to give him a polygraph test, it was carried out by these gentlemen here to touch. Yeah, so remember that Ruby wanted to go to Washington, and he asked to be,

put on a polygraph machine and then he asked them you know the commission would then ask him questions and he would answer them his point being that you got to believe me i'm telling the truth there is this plot there you know our lives are in danger your life's in danger mr chief justice my life's in danger well ruby of course never got to go to washington but he did get the polygraph and it's commissioner staffer David Bellin, who would go on to be one of the most prolific defenders of the Warren Report, aside from the likes of, of course, Gerald Ford. He was one of the folks, one of the vocal minority that was also in favor of the use of the polygraph. And we've talked about polygraph machines quite a bit, I think, in this episode. It's important to remember

that, first of all, polygraphs, they're not admissible evidence. They're not really the lie detector test that popular culture makes them out to be, because they aren't super reliable. Remember that Edgar Hoover even confided to LBJ that the machines were not so useful for determining truthfulness, but instead were a good interrogation tactic to sort of rig someone up and make them think that they are sort of truth detector tests. But Ballin was, he was a believer. And so he gets thinking that he's like, okay, well, let's get Ruby to get a lie detector.

And how does he do that, right? He goes to a fella by the name of Rabbi Hillel Silverman. Yeah. I mean, this is, I think it's probably the last little tangent that we'll go off on here. And of course, leaving hundreds for every tangent that we do go off on, listener, believe us that there are literally hundreds that we are axing out of our programming. But this one, I think it's too good to leave it out. So Hillel Silverman had met David Bellin in 1962 on what Silverman described as a mission trip to Israel. And it's unclear how Bellin found out about Silverman's relationship with Ruby or why these two guys kept in touch. I guess it could be Bellin, I think, was from the Midwest or the South, someplace where there wasn't a big Jewish community. Silverman, of course, was ministering to a congregation in Dallas,

where there's also a relatively small Jewish community. So maybe it was that? I don't know. But the fact is that Bellin not only kept Silverman's contact info, but became aware that Silverman had this relationship with Ruby, which really didn't develop until after Ruby's arrest. And so Bellin got it in his mind, and he has written about all this stuff.

So this is not speculation here. This is, you know, the account of those involved. And he used Silverman to plant the seed in Jack's mind that he should request a polygraph because Earl Warren wasn't going to agree to it if David Bellen came up with the idea. But he thought maybe he'll agree to it if Jack Ruby comes up with the idea. And it'll be even better if Jack Ruby insists on the idea. And so Bellen sits down with Silverman on a trip to Dallas. And he says, says, look, rabbi, you've got to convince Jack Ruby to tell the Warren Commission that he will

not testify unless they give him a polygraph. And he has two conversations with Silverman to the same effect, and Silverman obliges, Jack does make this request, and Earl Warren perhaps unthinkingly, grants the request. And for the rest of his life, Arlen Spector would play this little schick where he fancied himself smarter than Earl Warren and said, I don't think that he was really thinking too hard when he agreed to that, because oh boy, what a shit show. And, you know, whatever the case was,

Earl Warren put the commission on the hook to give Jack this polygraph. And before we talk about the polygraph, which is actually a very short story, a little bit more about Rabbi Hillel Silverman, who just another person here in the mix of Jack Ruby's post-incarceration life, he's apparently one of his closest confidants in the last years of his life and i just think we've got to say who this fucking guy was because i mean i i only learned this stuff like this week about silverman and i was kind of blown away honestly is silverman's not the guy that ruby went and saw in the hours after JFK's is. Oh yeah it is. He is that guy. Man, so this is the guy that was sort of going to serve as

an anchor point in the story of Jack Ruby and his distress. And you think, you know, when we were telling that story, it was sort of like this is just the rabbi in a synagogue, but you open up the can and it's a whole can of worms. First of all, where to he go to school. Kill Bill Sirens. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Our longtime listeners will have guessed.

The through line to all of this is, of course, Yale. And Silverman was at Yale. And Silverman, according to his own account, according to Silverman himself, he came to know Prescott Bush which is a funny connection, right, for a rabbi?

Yeah, this Jewish kid who gets to Yale on his basketball scholarship and he was apparently, he was not invited to any secret societies, but he did know

these fellas, and he knew Prescott Bush so it's a real small world but after Yale he went to New York's Jewish theological seminary and from there on to Palestine to join the Zayo paramilitary organization Haganah in 1947 which was then of course integrated into the I-O-F there isn't much on Silverman's activity during the Nakba. But the Hagenas, you know, that group was implicated in several of the massacres of that time. It's clearly also the largest fighting force of that time, but it's not so clear what Silverman's

role was in that, to what extent he may have been implicated in those war crimes. Yeah, I'll just say this, that the way that Silverman describes it, he basically showed up. And, enlisted in the Haganah and was given one of these belt-fed World War I era machine guns and was just posting up and just shooting, you know, ropes upon ropes of bullets indiscriminately and was on the front lines. So he saw combat. and he's not the type to confess if he was out there killing civilians. Of course, his accounts are much more focused on his comrades that were killed in action.

But he was out there, you know, taking a break from his rabbinical studies to go and, in his view, defend the underdog David against the surrounding Arab Goliath. Of course, history tells a very different story of the Nakba. Sorry to interrupt. Go ahead, Dick. Well, no. So after his brief tour in the Israeli military, what does he do? He comes back to the United States and joins the Navy decides to do another tour this time are we talking about Gerald the Jewish Gerald Ford here

I know he's got Yale he's got the Navy all we need is a connection to the financial banking industry and the establishment and we're getting pretty close to your standard

sort of Fourth Reich recipe right that's the fourth right come up right there yeah exactly Exactly. Time to someone in the banking community and you're right there. And you know what? He was right there too because he made, well, I should say, so Silverman joins the Navy and he's a chaplain during the Korean War. but then you know he comes you know he comes you know he comes to befriend eddie warburg of the very powerful uber powerful warburg family the preeminent jewish bankers in hamburg germany who set up in new york

and mainly through the investment house of Kun, Loeb, and Co. And Eddie's brother, Freddy, he was close friends with Mr. Establishment himself, John J. McCloy. Yeah, it's quite amazing. I mean, my eyes were just popping out of my head when I was reading this stuff about Silverman. I mean, he's, and with respect to his Korean War service like it bears pointing out that these guys who were on the ship with him you know they would go out by day and just bomb the utter shit out of North Korea we've mentioned on the pod

that you know the vast majority of permanent structures in North Korea Korea were destroyed to the point that they ran out of targets during this war, and then they would come back and they would, you know, break bread with this rabbi. And so he not only had experience killing people, but he also had experience comforting the killers of people and all of this seems to lead him to the ultimate role he would play as Jack Ruby's confessor and I mean good lord the Warburg connection is almost too much yeah it's nuts the through the connecting it all the way back to like McCloy in the establishment that's freaking yeah he's connected to McCloy through one

degree of separation to the bushes through zero degrees of separation and now through Eddie Warburg he becomes connected to the Dallas oil mill you oh yeah because Eddie Warburg knew a Jewish lawyer in Dallas whose main client was none other than Clint Murchison and so Eddie puts Silverman in contact with this fella, believe his name was Jaffy, and the rest, as they say, is history when Silverman gets the job in the mid-50s to move down to Dallas and to lead up the rabbinical practice there at the congregation sometimes attended, albeit infrequently, by the Rubenstein siblings. He had a nightclub, and I remember once he came to services and he had a cast on his elbow.

And I said to him, Jack, what happened to you? He said, well, somebody was making trouble in my nightclub, so I pushed him out. And one afternoon, this was before the Kennedy assassination. He came to my home and put all the dogs out of his car, little dogs, little puppies, beautiful dogs. And he said, Rabbi, take a dog. He was a strange man. He had many idiosyncrasies. He always wanted status because he never had status.

And policemen and journalists and photographers gave him status. He certainly didn't intend to kill Oswell. He never knew Oswald would be there. And he walked in, he saw Jack Ruby leering and he went crazy, became a misguided patriot and pulled a He saw Oswald Learing. He saw Oswald Leary, right. There was no connection between Jack Ruby and anybody else. I asked him many, many times that question.

And he said there was no connection, no collusion. I did it because I was angry. I wanted to eliminate the man who killed my president. I wanted to prevent Jackie Kennedy from having to come to Dallas for a trial. Yeah, so Silverman was, he's been one of the last people I looked into that appeared with all the Ruby stuff. I don't know why. I think it was just the kind of, I think my initial thought looking at it all was, well, I think it was worn out by all the names. And I think when I got to his, I thought, at first I was just the appearance of a rabbi appearing here and there. And then when I went back and looked, I realized, well, he might.

have been, he was one of the very first to go and see Jack and then he was, he saw him, I think he might have seen him more than anyone else when he was in prison. He, some other details, he was, Silverman was in the international trademark, I think it was the international, the trademark that Kennedy was headed to, where his motorcade was headed to when he was killed. Then Silverman rushed over to Parkland and saw LBJ there and everyone. He said he saw Ruby at the synagogue that night, but the Ruby wasn't there too often. And then some other just details about just filling in some of the gaps of his life before then. So yeah, he fought in the Hagener, as he said, a gunner. And when he got back, he was always a very committed

Zionist. And I looked at just newspaper articles in the archives online where he appears. And as soon as he got back, he was doing a tour around America, you know, preaching the cause of Zionism and the state of Israel. the need to support it and raise funds and things like that he was always very very committed his dad was an extremely well well a revered rabbi they both wrote a book of um i think a prayers of some kind that were that was very widely printed um so his dad was already extremely like his that his his dad's name was very, very well known nationally. And then, there's one article I found.

I think his wife was in some way very deeply connected to the highest levels of the Israeli government and just leadership of the nation state. And there's one article from, I think, the early 60s where there's a picture of Silverman and his wife meeting. I think it's, might be meeting. with Ben-Gurion himself, but the article describes them meeting, well, everyone of any significance, including like Goulde, Meir, and yeah, just the entire leadership of the state

of Israel. So, yeah, and then Warburg, of course, that was, that really is wild, and And, yeah, and that lawyer, Jeff, who was Cruel in Dallas, and the connections are really kind of, they blew my mind as well when I first looked at them. And because he's not discussed, really, in any of the writing about, in, I don't know, yeah, I can't think of books where he's discussed much. Except in the recent Danny Finger Roth biography of Jack Ruby. where basically this kind of random hack biographer did a bunch of interviews with Silverman in like the 2010s. I mean, Silverman lived to be very old. He just died in the last few years,

I think, like over a hundred years old or something. Yeah, last couple of years, I think, now that you mention it, yeah. Oh, and then there's an article about him where his family on his deathbed in hospital asked him if he was involved in some way or knew of a conspiracy regarding JFK, which, and he, of course, said no. Apparently, I think the story is like him lifting his oxygen mask to say no. And I just say, that is a hell of a thing to ask a relative on their deathbed. Like, that must be really, you must be pretty damn preoccupied by that possibility

and be entertaining it to ask it. So I don't know, but it's, yeah, the connections blew my mind. as well and um and uh yeah um and maybe this is going too far but i when i was seeing them um i am not in the yeah this is getting into a whole other thing but in terms of connections between say israeli intelligence or or israel um and kennedy assassination i i don't there's uh it's difficult to find evidence that that pins things down one way the other at the moment but one of my thoughts was um if if um someone would uh would have been uh needed or or if someone if someone was in a position to um be right at the heart of things and uh um you know sharing information back and

and forth internationally perhaps or perhaps being this is pure speculation but or if someone like that were to be asked to do certain things or emphasize certain things he would have been in a perfect position to at least you know at the level of relaying information and you know the connections to the highest levels of yes and and israeli leadership and power or and he was right there literally in the in the room with jack very often so that's just pure speculation but um it's uh he is it is wild i don't see silverman as having been involved in like an american-israeli conspiracy around the jfk hit necessarily right no that was purely speculation yeah like if i don't know he was in the position where there was a hell of a lot of connection

and i was just thinking where could that have come into play if it did i don't know where I do see him playing a role, apart from being David Bellin's, I guess, eyes and ears in Jack Ruby's jail cell and mouthpiece to Jack Ruby, you know, the mouthpiece for David Bellin to reach Jack Ruby indirectly. Also, Silverman is used as kind of a halo around the Jack Rubin. Jack was a lone nut narrative. So I mentioned this recent biography of Ruby that relies mostly on information from Silverman. Or at least that's like it's it's like a copy paste job of the Warren reports biography of Ruby and then throws in all this stuff from Silverman and uses Silverman to bolster Jack.

own denials of being involved in a conspiracy and that plays in a little bit later as well towards the end of Jack Ruby's life when one of his appellate lawyers a guy called Gertz works with a couple of the Ruby siblings to record Jack Ruby on his you know sickbed i don't it was i don't know exactly what month it was in late 66 if it was already december when he was hospitalized terminally or if it was a little bit earlier but ruby was sick and they wanted to get him on record and they for some reason insinuated that halel silverman was there witnessing this recording session and giving it therefore authority. In fact, not only was Silverman not there, but these people recorded at least 15 minutes of

Jack Ruby talking and then cut the recording down to like three and a half minutes. so they eliminated you know two-thirds of the more than two-thirds of the actual material and then they use silverman to say like oh yeah his rabbi was there so this is the definitive thing it wasn't a conspiracy and the polygraph which we still haven't covered actually worked in much the same way, right? Ruby answered all of the questions in the negative when asked, you know, were you involved in a conspiracy? Did you know Oswald? Did somebody tell you to kill Oswald? Are you involved in organized crime? All this stuff, right? And of course, as anybody could have told fucking Dave Bellen, the polygraph was absolutely useless. And to even,

Even the Warren Commission didn't rely on it and wrote in the report that during the proceedings at Dallas, Texas on July 18, 1964, Dr. William R. Beaver's, a psychiatrist, testified that he would generally describe Jack Ruby as a psychotic depressive. In view of the serious question raised as to Ruby's mental condition, no significance should be placed on the policy. prolograph examination and it should be considered non-conclusive as the charts cannot be relied upon the hsca went even further we won't get into it but they wrote a 26-page report about the polygraph just tearing it to shreds that not only was jack's responses not reliable but the way that it was written like they just let the different people write questions and like there was no controls and it was just an absolute mess and a huge would-be waste of time except you still see to this day in pro lone nut discourse people saying well jack ruby took a polygraph jack ruby told the polygraph that he wasn't involved in a conspiracy. So

how could he be involved in a conspiracy if he took a polygraph? It's just like saying, well, his rabbi said he wasn't involved in a conspiracy. So why are we still talking about this? Come on. That's clear. Case is settled. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a big house of cards.

and yeah so Jack Ruby he won his appeal on October the 6th 1966 and very shortly thereafter on December the 9th of that same year he was diagnosed with a very rapidly spreading form of cancer. And less than a month after that, on January 3rd, 1967, Jack Ruby suffered a pulmonary embolism and died. And that's how you tie up a loose end. Yeah. I don't want to, now it's my term to speculate.

I don't want to go the whole Jack route where he claimed he was injected with cancer. But it is very curious how quickly everything happened. Proximity to the appeal, to the outcome of the appeal, and how rapidly things were sort of closed. Yeah. And remember, you know, Jack was starting to speak. speak up in public in ways that indicated a much larger conspiracy, and it was no longer in such psychotic terms as those he used in his conversations with the Warren Commission or with Jolly

West, you know, there's obviously the famous quote about the world will never know my true motive, right? And talking about the very powerful men in who put him in the position that he is in. And comments of that nature, which perhaps Jolly West thought once upon a time, you know, if this guy wins on appeal, he's just going to be locked up in a hospital and we can do with him whatever we want and i think you know one that would be pretty high maintenance especially given ruby's predilection for off-the-cuff remarks and two you know that presupposes this whole new trial process because jack ruby's was not granted a new trial because he was found insane. He was granted a new trial because the Court of Appeals agreed with his attorneys that Judge Joe Brown committed error by declining to

grant the motion for a change of venue and get the case out of Dallas, and that Judge Joe Brown further erred when he admitted the testimony of Patrick Dean as to Ruby's alleged confession of premeditation. And so the new trial was to be held in 1967 in Wichita Falls, Texas, outside of Dallas, and it would just be a whole do-over. I mean, throw out psychomotor epilepsy, you got a clean slate. I mean, really everything up to and including a plea deal ratting on other people, right? Ruby had a lot of cards he could have played in that new trial. And that presents into the picture a lot of uncertainty for his.

handlers. So they certainly had the motive to do away with Jack. Yeah, as he said, the timing is really, really wild. And I was just checking. He was hospitalized on December 9th, and I think he dies on January 3rd. So it's about a month. And in, there's an interview with Eva Grant, his sister in the Westpapers, and I think maybe she talks about it elsewhere as well. She was visiting Jack, I think on the day he was hospitalized on that Friday. And she says that while she was there, the sheriff of Wichita Falls, was there discussing with Decker the transfer for the trial. And while there, she found Jack very sick and kept trying to insist to them that they needed to look at him and get a doctor to see him. And that day he went to hospital. So it was

literally while it was that day, that same day, that the sheriff was there to discuss the transfer. And about a month later, he's dead. And so that is, very very soon you know there's very little time and I just checked I got I got the autopsy stuff from the I think it might be online as well and that the cancer

and sorry this is morbid stuff but it was in the lungs the lymph nose the liver the brain ribs vertebrae pancreas and his prostate and so that is metastasized as much as anything it can be

and yeah so I mean he was sick enough at that on that day for either to be very, very nervous or, you know, insisting that he get attended to. But also, there's not much sign as far as I have found much before that of him being particularly sick. I think there might be over the weeks before that he was

sick in some way, but if something happened, And there's a month there between him being in a state where it couldn't be ignored and him dying and this incredibly widely spread cancer, which if it was, I mean, if it was sometime relatively shortly before that day, you know, that's pretty remarkable. but um but yeah there's nothing as far as i know that's uh um kind of slam dunk in well yeah i assume we would have heard about it regarding um regarding uh how how it happened but um or if anything more untoward happened but just there's not there's nothing as far as i know much more than a few weeks prior to that um regarding him being noticeably sick um so it's very quick And then, of course, once he's in hospital, I was just checking these articles with headlines about, you know, so Ruby gravely ill, tries to convince US, he acted alone, things like that. So, and then, as he said, there's people in there making sure he's on tape saying certain things.

So it's, again, wildly convenient timing for certain people. Yeah. Yeah, that sheriff, there's this statement that I feel. found from he was the Dallas deputy sheriff who was meeting with Ruby about the transfer and he reported that he met with Ruby and Ruby said that he was injected with cancer cells and then the sheriff said you don't believe that bullshit and reported that Jack Ruby responded I damn sure do if you keep your eyes open and your mouth shut you're going to learn a lot uh and it really like we could spend

another hour we've been going now for over three hours here we could go on even more we could talk about how allegedly david ferry you know oswald's one of oswald's alleged handlers out of new Orleans had a passion for researching virus-borne forms of cancer and was allegedly working on research in an apartment that was filled with lab mice. And we could talk about how one of the researchers that was allegedly connected to fairy, Dr. Mary Sherman, was stabbed to death and then her body burned to an unidentifiable crisp shortly after the Kennedy assassination. There's just like a million little ramps that we could take off from the Jack Ruby case

that we haven't covered here, Dorothy Kilgallan's mysterious death after she was arranging to get an exclusive story on Ruby. She was a very famous journalist that died by an apparent suicide despite the fact that she was in the immediate time leading up to that suicide, talking about how excited she was to break the Kennedy story wide open. So, I mean, there's just, God, you know, it never really. really ends, in fact, if you want to follow every single one of these leads, but I think maybe if you all will indulge, it would be nice to not break this session off too abruptly and share

some final thoughts about Jack Ruby and what his role in history means. means for us. Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts of what occur, my motives. The people have so much to gain and have such a material motive for putting me in a position I'm in. We'll never let the true facts come about those. coming on board to the world. These people are very high position, yeah.

Yes. For me, it's that moment where you have the JFK funeral going on live television and then it is interrupted with the images of Jack capping Lee Harvey Oswald as sort of in real time like closing the chapter on this great coup and then closing the chapter on Jack in this

not in this bang but in this whimper of you know he wins his appeal and then just dies and it's like okay well that there goes the story of Jack Ruby and with him goes any hope to get to

the facts right his testimony to the Warren Commission the point he makes about how there are forces at play right that kind of stuff to me is like in my mind the the key to Jack Ruby is is so to speak is this person who maybe was let in on something and was guided to be the cleanup guy and then things go terribly wrong. Yeah, I think that that is a great way to tee it up. I mean, this is the Society of the Spectacle announcing itself in a clear scream in the ear of the world.

And I'll add to it that all that we've described, all of the extremely suspicious aspects of Jack Ruby and his killing of Oswald live on TV. It's a real, perhaps one of the first examples of rubbing it in our faces, you know? The OG. It is kind of the OG rubbing it in our faces when you have a guy who is mobbed up to his eyeballs who has known connections to all of the mafiosi who are also working with the CIA on assassination plots and yet he is nevertheless maintained as this lone nut who acted out of a deep sense of empathy with the widow of a president and this is a guy who knew nothing about politics who at least according to his official record

you know some people have said that he might have done some more serious crimes in the past but i mean the guy had never done anything to anyone with a weapon that wasn't his bare hands you know he was a bit of a brawler but he was never had never been known as a killer and yet uh he has all the motivation in the world to carry out this hit i mean uh g robert blakey who certainly have a lot of issues with him, but he kind of nailed it after the HSCA when he wrote his book about the killing when he said that the Jack Ruby hit, I think he described it something like a classic gangland style assassination, a classic hit job. And yeah, like it's literally on film. Nevertheless, we still have to contend.

with not only the David Bellens of the world, but Bert Griffin himself who twisted the story after his own humiliation by his colleagues on the Warren Commission goes around parroting over and over this MISA about Jack Ruby was the first conspiracy theorist. He lost his mind because of conspiracy theorist. series and it led him to commit this murder and it's like you know good move griffin good move uh you didn't please the bosses in your first attempt and so you're going for it again and it's uh really like almost everything we've covered in the whole series within a series the war on the warren

commission you know on any of these things you look past the surface level and it's like come the fuck on it's right there staring you in the face and and the problem is i think even between the three of us that we've collectively spent you know hundreds of hours max more than anybody but we still can't figure out you know what the fuck actually happened what were actually the roles of all of these suss lords involved so you know mission accomplished deep state got to tip the hat totally i think max your point about how the closer you get to the you know the event the more confusing things get um in the timeline i think that's i mean that's critical to understand and it's sort of like whether it's by design or not but like things just get more and more confusing

as you get to that moment and that makes it impossible to unravel. Yeah, I think during World War II there was some, the RAF had some primitive thing to jam, I think, I guess, early radar. I think it was called mirror and it was just they would fly over and just drop whole payloads of just strips

of mirrored foil that would just overload everything and it just feels like it's a similar kind of trying to pick up figure out what was going on on the ground i think was i imagine it was it's must have felt similar to um what it's like here it feels like that you know when you're the closer you get it's just stuff being just dropped on on everything to just make it it not impossible but incredibly hard to figure out what the hell is going on and who's telling the truth and who isn't and who's lying or who's trying to tell the truth

but has been misled and what you know it's just um yeah it's it's chaos as uh as joe peshey said in jfk right it's a mystery wrapped in enigma yeah yeah just uh you've all said it so well i mean it's he's uh on the one hand he's just it's it's crazy how You know, a guy who, born into an immigrant family in Chicago when Vegas wasn't even a real city yet, when he was born, a few months later, it's incorporated. And just sort of hanging around the local hoodlums and, you know, kids getting involved with the wrong crowd kind of thing. And then suddenly he's, I love the emphasis you guys put on the spectacle because he's, and we've talked about it again, you just did but it's it's you know he goes from that to being the guy who on live TV commits the

first televised murder um of of the alleged assassin of a president and uh it's it's an unbelievable kind of trajectory it's like within his life all of the the systems and structures and even cities and all these intelligence agencies you talk about all this you know the whole thing happens within his um his his his life and uh he's kind of on the one hand he's compared to most people who arrive you know one of the few who were really close to all these things and on the other hand he wasn't quite at the heart of any of it it seems but he also was close enough that it's extremely incriminating if you even start to even begin to look

at the truth of his life and you know the bottom line I think with the Warren Commission's handling of him is I mean that I think it's the HSCA which has the which just fairly emphatically dams the Warren Commission's somehow managing to suggest that he had no concrete connection to organise crime

Because I think it's so overwhelming. You just, with Jack Ruby, you kind of just have to, if you're trying to cover it up at a certain point, you just have to essentially stick your fingers in your ears and just go, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we're not going there. It's like, you can't even begin to engage with it because the whole thing just kind of sort of falls apart, you know, the idea that he was just this guy. nightclub owner and that was it and um i just thought i could read a couple things from um yeah a psychiatrist um who interviewed ruby in his report in i think 65 or so

might have mentioned this before but yeah maybe i'm giving uh jack the last word of my words but um he uh in his report he says ruby insists he knows who had president kennedy killed quote they want him ruby to be insane so no one will believe his story for him the assassination was an act of overthrowing the government and then of course the guy says ruby's not able to follow a logical stream of thought but i think he kind of gets exactly right there but no he's crazy and again this is also that point of as time went on you know getting close to the end of his life he starts just saying stuff more and more like this he starts just i think getting to a point

like screw it you know then he says at one point he states that the war in vietnam is merely a diversion maneuver um distracting the american people from the things that are happening in the u.s um which is a different kind of comment then he suddenly relates that he cannot possibly divulge how he was framed into killing oswald um and then he says did not fail to warn me and instruct me that i'd be followed the moment i would leave the jail and that my phone would be tapped henceforth um he closed the series of interviews with the statement i am doomed i do not want to die but I am not insane. I was framed to kill Oswald, which, yeah, I mean, that's the words from the man himself. And, yeah, it's a, I think I heard a sigh there, and it's pretty, whenever I get to this

point with him, like, especially the end of his life, it's like, God, it's bleak, you know. But I think it's helpful, it illustrates the nature of this system. Yeah, I found another statement attributed to Ruby from January of 66 that he allegedly wrote in a letter to, I guess it was one of his lawyers. You must believe me, there is only one kind of people that would do such a thing. That would have to be the Nazis, and that is who is in power in this country right now. There's only one kind of people that would go to such extremes, and that would be the master race

noided jack yeah really I was just thinking and you should get him on the pod yeah this conversation maybe it's changed my mind and maybe that was the whole point

yeah yeah he's cipher for a lot right at the heart of so much Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby in a Cavana hat Whoever taught you to shoot a pistol like that Oh, you snuck in the basement and you stood in the back Jack Ruby Jack Ruby in a Cavanaugh head Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby you were 15 years old

On the south side of Chicago you looked up to Capone Stole girls lunch money meet boys on the way home jack ruby you were 50 years old well boys i want to thank you both especially max who has taken a great deal of time to join us on this journey on this excavation and we really can't express our thanks to you enough max it's it's been real we've learned so much much we have emerged with more questions, I think, than answers. And, you know, listeners, you can leave your unexplored angles in our inbox. And maybe, just maybe, someday down the line, we'll circle back to old Jack and see if there are any other secrets in here.

his treasure chest. But that will be another day because we are going back to the main line series within a series from here, and we will leave Jack Ruby in the rear view mirror. So with thanks to Max one more time. Thank you. I'm Don. I'm Dick. Saying farewell.

And keep on. digging. When the motorcade turned up, Houston and out, and into the crossfire where Camelot failed, with the shots from the bushes six-floor window well, indeed it paths are more than three empty shades. Was Lee Harvey Oswald the only one what evolves in the bushes you started to run? Well, secret service credentials in government guns Oh, they'd answer no questions about what they had done Oswald was set up so he did say

Before he appeared in the basement driveway In a live television, Ruby blew him away Well, God's be the witness with something to say Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby in a cabin a hat Whoever taught you to shoot a pistol like that Oh, you snuck in the basement and you stood in the back Jack Ruby, Jackerooey in a cabin a hat Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby, when you were 64,

you told you don't think you'll galen that you'd even a score From your jail cell gave names and numbers and more In 48 hours, she laid dead on the floor Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby, come back from the grave Tell it for real whose lives you would say, And the powers behind the deals that were made How a president's murder became your stocking trade Who knows who are guilty are alive to the state

They got their visas in DC and they got in their way Others laid low until election day It was a day of high treason and a quick and away Only the war in commission mean what they say Or did the marble oil money get in the way? Take the shadow of Cuba, dark in the day. In Dallas County, the land of L.B.J. In Dallas County, the land of L.B.J.

Jack Ruby, in a cabin a hat. Whoever taught did he shoot a pistol like that? Well, he snuck in the basement and he stood in the back. Jack Ruby, Jack Ruby, in a camera. Jack Ruby in a Cavanournard Whoever tied finished in a pistol like that When you snuck in the basement and you stood back Jack Ruby Jack Ruby in a cabin hour

Jack Ruby In a Kevin our hat Jack Ruby Jack Ruby in a cabin our hat Jack Ruby Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you.