Fourth Reich Archaeology - You Don't Know Jack (Ruby) pt. 4--Side B

Episode Date: August 8, 2025

We are back with side B of episode 4 of our excavation into the man who killed Lee Oswald, Jack Ruby. With us again is Max Arvo, and in this one we take a close look at Max's original research on the subject of Jack. Together, we cover the formation of Jack's legal and psychiatric team. As a reminder, Max's series of articles on Ruby can be found here: https://www.kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/jack-ruby-a-review-and-reassessment-part-

Colonialism or imperialism, as the slave system of the West is called, is not something that's just confined to England or France or the United States. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. So it's one huge complex or combine. Either you are with us or you are with the terrorists. And this international power structure is used to suppress the masses of dark-skinned people all over the world and exploit them of their natural resources. We found no evidence of conspiracy, foreign or domestic, the Warren Commission of science.

I'll never apologize for the United States of America. Ever, I don't care what the facts are. In 1945, we began to require information, which showed that there were two wars going to. His job, he said, was to protect the Western way of life. The primitive simplicity of their minds renders the more easy victims of a big lie than a small one. For example, we're the CIA.

He has a mile. He knows so long as a die. I'm afraid of we never be secure. It usually takes a national crisis. Freedom can never be secure. Pearl Harbor. A lot of killers. You've got a lot of killers.

Why you think our country's so innocent? This is a guy. I have. Now he has a model. I decide. I'm a global. Big Dead Fort Reich is coming. Enchiality.

Archaeology. This is Fourth Reich Archaeology. I'm Dick. And on behalf of Dawn, I'd like to welcome everyone. Thank you for tuning in. We're glad to have you here with us today. And we've got a great show in store for you. This week, we are returning to the series within a series within a series.

You Don't Know Jack, Ruby. That's our excavation into the life and time. of Jacob Rubinstein, a.k.a. Jack Ruby. And this week, we are returning to our fourth installment of that mini-series. And we're doing side B. Now, this is a drop that we did a few weeks ago, and we only publicly dropped the first side. Our Patreon subscribers, of course, were able to get the full episode a few weeks ago. We are so grateful for our Patreon supporters. We are always willing to accept more. You can find us at patreon.com slash forthrightearchology. We are also on Twitter and on Instagram at Fourth Reich Pod. And we love getting mail

from you folks so please do write us we are at fourth rikepod at gmail.com and with all of that out of the way i'm going to give you all a quick recap on where we left off in episode four side a of this story we call you don't know jack now recall in episode four four, we left off in sort of an abstract space. Now, remember, we had our guest, Max Arbo, who's back with us again today. And the three of us were talking about the amazing fact that the Oswald killing was caught on camera and was indeed the first of its kind. And so we were making a little hay out of the spectacle of it all, and one of the concrete points that we were raising about the spectacle was that it led to this mad dash of sort of lawyers, PR, psychiatrists, of course, these folks

who came swarming and circling really like sharks or, bats or wolves or surrounding Jack Ruby and licking their chops, thinking about how they will control the situation. In this week's episode, we're going to get to know this cast of characters, these lawyers, psychiatrists, these PR guys that came in to do Jack dirty Without further ado, let's get digging. From Broadway Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas, the American Broadcasting Company joins with the nation

in observing the memorial service for the late president of the United States, John Fitzgerald Kennedy. The Reverend Dr. J.B. Allen, Minister of the Church, will officiate. have mercy on me old god according to thy steadfast love according to thy abundant mercy blot out my transgressions wash me thoroughly from mine iniquity and cleanse me from my sin creating me a clean heart for god and renew a right spirit within me the sacrifice acceptable to god is a broken spirit a broken and a contrite heart

O God thou wilt not despise Rob Walker WFA TV Dallas Texas interrupting has been a shooting at Dallas police station as Oswald was being transferred for details Bill Moore

ABC at City Hall Bill Just one minute ago they were bringing Oswald out He had apparently changed clothes He was just going out the door He was just going out of the door

Heading towards a armored car There was a bang, we believe it was a shot. And apparently, what has happened to it, we do not know at the present time. Let thy special blessing abide upon the family of the slain president. And grant, oh God, then in a time of national crisis and emergency, that the vision of thy people's eyes may be so clarified that they may distinguish the blessing

which can come out of any situation He is surrounded He is surrounded He is surrounded by sheriffs by a plainclosement detectives

by policemen of every ascripted reserve officers What was feared might happen Actually apparently has happened Here in Dallas as possible while he is shot

according to the police there had been so much preparation on this and if they feared anything they certainly didn't fear there would happen here in the police station it happened in the police station in the basement

they were afraid of the route taking him one mile from here to the county courthouse yes yes because they uh you were saying earlier that going to give him an armored car for that route. Yes, they were worried, so worried about it

that they were going to take an armored car and transfer him. The armored car had apparently been brought out. I saw him come down. The elevator, there were sheriffs with the sheriffs where he got Texas Tin Gala hats. They were walking fast feet. And they were ready to do everything in their power

to guard this man, because this was the one thing that did not want to happen. Here is a man charged with murder of the president. of the United States and now he himself has been shot. We do not know his condition. We do know that the shooting occurred inside the city jail of Dallas before he could be placed in a car and transported to the county jail.

Report we have from Bill Lord was that the shooting was probably done by an elderly man, a short, dodgy man. The horses and the Kaysan are now awaiting the pallbearers who will bring the casket out and place it on the Kaysan for the funeral procession up the historic route that a little less than three years ago John Kennedy took to be inaugurated, present. And as we await further reports, it might be. interesting to do a resume on the evidence that law enforcement officers had gathered against Lee Harvey Oswald. Some of the physical evidence, Oswald's wife, says he owns a rifle. Furthermore,

Oswald was employed in the building where the sniper hid for the attack, and police have established that he was in the building at the time of the assassination. There is more evidence enough for local law enforcement officers in Dallas to make the statement. that we feel, quote, we have a cinch, end quote. Yesterday this portico was wet, and the sky was dark. Today the sky is brightened, and Washington was dried. I think that that is a good pivot, actually, to pick up sort of our factual narrative, and now I'm going to read a quote from our very own

Max Arvo from your article on Jack Ruby and reassessing Jack Ruby, your article from Kennedy's and King. And you wrote there, because we're going to talk now about the lawyers and psychiatrists that rush onto the scene to stage manage the events around Jack Ruby. And you wrote about that. What then did all these esteemed lawyers and psychiatrists actually accomplish? They secured total control of Ruby, his public perception, his legal defense, his medical and psychiatric treatment, and all access to Ruby. Amidst all of that, they also secured rapidly and completely control over any ability Jack Ruby had to share information with the world. So I think that that is as succinct a distillation of what we're about to get into

as you could come up with, and now we're going to dig a little bit deeper and find out who these people were and how they achieved that nefarious goal. so we're sort of talking now about the word getting out about the need for a lawyer right rubia has now killed oswald and it's obviously making national headlines and the question that is on everyone's mind is who is going to be the one representing this man and it's sort of a race to the court you have a bunch of guys trying to get the job right you're just showing up right yeah i mean there was a lot more that i was digging into and started to write about but it just there's like a long article just in the saga of all the people who were tied to ruby in it like i think there was something like six lawyers who on the day were actually tied to the possible of representing him, but they all get whittled down basically immediately, and Howard's the guy

who's, well, he's there when it happens, and his offices across the street. Another thing that was striking to me, like, in terms of, I was first approaching it with the whole kind of keeping in mind the thing that Ruby was not quite a lone nut like Oswald, but an isolated guy, a hanger on kind of thing. It seemed to me, like, it was hard to find any lawyer that was referenced in Dallas at the time who hadn't previously represented Jack Ruby. And a lot of them described him as just a friend. And so these lawyers were in the mix were people who'd represented him before. Just quickly, one of the names was a guy called Clayton Fowler who ends up joining the Ruby case in I think 65, something like that. But

he was in the mix on that day as a possibility, but he quickly ruled himself out. But he'd represented him before and I think it was I think it was George de Moran Schultz lawyer as well I mean yeah it's it's insane and they kind of it's again it's a really small world and there's the guy was not isolated in any way it's not just with the cops and the syndicate folk like it seems like most of the lawyers knew him so yeah there's a whole yeah race to the courthouse definitely and Howard ends up being the guy who who sticks around and gets it at least for for a few days. Yeah, I'm going to play a clip from another lawyer that was there on that day,

a guy called C.A. Droby, who was interviewed by the TV news crew at the courthouse and apparently had some previous connection to Ruby as well. And he told the reporters that he was threatened not to take on the case. You are one of Ruby's lawyers. Perhaps you will defend him in this case. I understand that you received a call from your wife at home? Yes, sir. A police detective told me how he knew it. I don't know that I had been threatened and I just talked with my wife.

And what did you tell her? Betty and Betty told me she was crying and said that she had received two calls that I would be next to die. die from the same person oh she doesn't know she said it's in a foreign voice yes and what did you tell her i told her to get the baby and get out of the house nine years old was it a man called yes so who knows if tom howard was considered to be a permissible choice or if he just got lucky or what but in any event, Tom Howard gets the first nod. Do you want to describe a little bit, Max, about who Tom Howard was? Yeah, well, he'd been around for a while. He was sort of thought of as, I think the disparaging way, kinder, that he was referred to, was just kind of a almost a bail bondsman,

a guy who would deal with sort of low, low scale things, and wouldn't, um, wouldn't be doing complex lawyering. His office was literally across the street. His law partner was Collie Sullivan, I think it was the name. And so he was a guy who, again, like Ruby, was always at the Dallas Police Department. And again, though, he had extensive connections throughout the city with the cops and I think with some of the city legal senior folk. And also Dallas was a small city. I mean, back then. And this was a very, very small world. So any of these people would know each other, especially in something like the law, you know, you're at Dallas at the time.

But yeah, he was a thought of as kind of a small-scale kind of guy who was handling local day-to-day things. And I think there was a sense of him having connections to some of the underworld in Dallas as well, which again, when we talk about Dallas police, it's kind of inseparable from like, like Ruby was there to corrupt the, Dallas police they were already corrupt before he got there they were I think totally happy to work with whoever the new frontman was for you know the folk could pay him off and that was Ruby and and Howard was I think part of that millier as well I mean there it's all it's all part of that but yeah but not not a big hot shot and a local name and almost immediately Howard makes reference to his intent to invoke

an insanity defense. Right. Yeah, I mean, something I spent a bit of time trying to figure out was when was the actual first instance that insanity was mentioned, because that sort of played into my argument of this is getting into it later, but with West's involvement, you know, if you're playing devil's advocate and trying to argue it as rigorously as possible, it's kind of like the importance of when insanity was first mentioned plays into, on what basis would someone like West try to get involved to help this allegedly insane person. And it does seem that Howard said it on the day,

certainly by the 25th, but it was just, I think the comment at least that I quoted in my article and refer to is that he said, well, I can't say this early, but I would say that he was in the state of mine at the time of the shooting that he was when I saw him about an hour later, he was certainly in a state of emotional collapse at the time of the shooting and probably out of his mind. I've known him about 10 years and he's a very likable fellow. He's well-liked Dallas

and is a very law-abiding citizen and I'm satisfied that it wouldn't have made any difference whether the president was Republican or Democrat. He would have been upset about it in the same way. The other thing with the insanity defense is that I think I've said it before but you know if well yeah if your client has committed the first live murder in US history your options are limited yeah that's the way to say it very very limited and I think anyone would try the you know the insanity

defense throw it out there is because it's kind of like what the hell else can you do so it's it's one of the only options that was out there so that's me point there is that I think Howard saying it will have a different valence to folk, other folk, saying it later on, you know. But yeah, day off, I think, essentially, if not by the 25th. But it's just the throwaway, it's not some big theory, it's just, we're going for insanity. Yeah, and it seems like the prosecution started circling the wagons instantly as well to try and put the kibosh on an insanity. defense, the assistant district attorney Bill Alexander, who was himself a rather racist,

right-wing guy there in the city of Dallas. You could imagine he's spending a good deal of his time locking up poor black people on pretextual offenses in the real Jim Crow or trying to keep Jim Crow around, even in spite of the official end of segregation ending. I saw one quote that Bill Alexander's reported to have said, Earl Warren shouldn't be impeached. He should be hanged. Right. So you could imagine what a nice guy. But for our purposes, Bill Alexander has the wherewithal to send the state's psychiatrist, Dr. Holbrook, to examine Jack Ruby.

the day after the killing, right, on the 25th of November. Yeah, that's interesting. And, yeah, he saw him. So that's the first time there's a psychiatrist involved. And then for a while, I think, until, like, middle of December when the defense gets him in. But if I remember, right, his report is basically the guy was sane. So that exists. You know, they got that on the books.

But for the defense, I guess, that doesn't kill the insanity defense outright because the thing would be it's fine if he's sane at that point but the point is was he insane in the moment of the act and it's those kind of details that a lot of it ends up getting well yeah they litigate those kind of things and just one comment about the dallas police and what you said about alexander um well a couple of things just worth throwing out there quickly one uh is that this is a side point a huge amount of the dallas police were members of military intelligence which was a big, big deal in the US all over at that point, and particularly in Dallas.

But that was just a side point I was reminded of because a huge amount of the DPD were also members of the Ku Klux Klan, apparently. They had connections to it, and that was alive and well. And I think the guy who was something like a liaison or representative of the KKK on the DPD was George, what was it, Butler, I think, the guy who, There's a lot of butlers and hunters and things like that, so sometimes they mix up those are last names.

And Martens, yeah, butlers, hunters, and martins are everywhere. Oh, yeah, yeah, first names and last names. Oh, yeah, and then you've got George Hunter White. That's just, yeah, it's impossible. But, yeah, and he was the guy who managed the Oswald security or lack thereof, really, as he was supposed to be transferred out when Ruby got him. So that guy was also the, I think the guy.

who was head KKK guy on the force and yeah anyway that was reminded of that because of what you said about Alexander like that's this is very deeply rooted in I mean obviously in the south of that time but I sort of forget at times like because it's kind of a bit harder in in from our present day context to realize like how deeply and barely hidden if even hidden at all that kind profoundly like deeply felt violently racist and proudly racist side of things that there was there yeah and the kkk being a secret society with its own hierarchical structure and all of those accoutrements it's yet another organization in addition to the mafia in addition to the Cubans, in addition to the CIA itself, that has maybe a cut or a piece or some tangential,

at least, involvement in the events, that the other groups with involvement can then turn and pin the blame on them. So it's just this, you know, I think that the DeBoard quote that I read earlier is a perfect encapsulation of just how much misdirection is available to the conductors of the symphony in Dallas. Yeah, I mean, that was just one other point that I forgot to make earlier was part of the difficulty with going back, especially when you go back to like trying to figure out who said what and who told someone what and when in the like the hours and days are after that weekend or of that weekend and like which journalists said what and whether they were intentionally muddying the waters or whether they'd been thrown off the scent stuff like that

is there was just so much there were so many different factions at play who even if in they all benefited from Kennedy being out of the picture they could still be between them be trying to chuck the blame on another group. And then that could also be happening, which was happening at the higher levels of management of the cover-up, I'd say by, like, Angleton and that lot. You know, it's just a complete mess. And the disinformation and, I mean, journalists being fed certain stories

that sound explosive and, you know, we're sincerely doing a good job, but had been completely thrown off the scent by people trying to do so. It's just, I mean, it's chaos. really when you try and go back and try and figure out like when i was trying to you know pin down like all right like where something like tom howard or those lawyers and like who was doing what when and who knew what when and when did they first say it and you know trying to figure out the credibility of certain you know reporting about like whether ruby met oswald you know that was i think of

or that was a story that ruby and jady tippet and bernard weissman met in the carousel club a few days before, and that seems to have been BS, intentionally planted BS. Yeah, I'm chiming in here from post-production. I looked up George Butler, who indeed was the name of the Dallas police officer that was supposed to be in charge of Oswald's security, and it turns out that he also planted some disinformation, including saying that Oswald was Jack Ruby's illegitimate son. So you can never be too careful, I suppose, with these chaos agents and discordian warlocks out there, planting bullshit.

It's just the point is it's chaos. It's so difficult to figure out, especially, I mean, the closer you get to the moments, the more intense the chaos is. I guess it's like the signal-to-noise ratio kind of thing. Like the noise is just off the charts. Well, that's a great way to set up this question because I think in this you have kind of put a pretty solid point on a chaotic question that really shouldn't be that chaotic. But the question is, when did Melvin Belli, who would eventually serve as lead trial counsel replacing Tom Howard, when did he get hired to represent Jack Ruby? And there's all kinds of competing narratives here.

Seems like the official narrative was that he was brought on around mid-December to lead the trial team after some series of conversations about potentially getting involved. But I think you've made a compelling case that he got involved much sooner and really right away. So you want to lay that out? yeah i mean that was another thing where it was just bewildering trying to pick apart what exactly was the case and all these contradictory things i'll start with yeah the official story well i know that there are articles from i think it's december 20th when he first visits dallas and he's he is telling the press at that time beli and this is a guy who was so good at courting the press and just just good of that or just did it naturally and narcissists and you know all those things i'm sure

He's saying, he'd just seen Ruby that day, and he was saying then that he was saying he was undecided, that he'd come to Dallas to figure out if he was going to. Absolutely BS. And then he says in his book that I think is either, I think it was 64, maybe it was 67, Dallas Justice. In that book he says that he had, the way he says it is it was the weekend of, like the Ruby shoot or that week. And so as I was trying to figure that out, the bottom.

line that the quick way to say is that I guess the three main characters in my articles West I guess Beli as well and this guy Hubert Winston Smith who I guess will get to the official story is all that well with West and Smith it's that they got involved April 64 and with Beli it's that it was weeks after in December I think in all cases and Smith is the one that's a bit harder to pin down to exactly that first week, but, well, you can prove that West and Beli were involved that first week, and that's not disclosed at the time. So with Beli, yeah, he says in his account that it was when Earl Ruby took his trip to LA within a day or two after the shooting. So it was

the 24th and a lot of time trying to pass out these various different documents. And what I got to was that it was within a day or two. So he was in L.A. by the, like, 25th, 26th or so, maybe 27th. And it was during that trip that Beli agreed to join the case. So Beli was, had signed on, maybe not formally becoming the lead defense, but he was on board. I'd say within two or three days. And that sort of gets to that whole weird Earl Ruby trip to L.A. But, yeah, Belli was involved from early on, well, extremely early on within days.

Let's talk a little bit about this process by which he gets brought on. So one story seems to be that Earl Ruby was instructed to go get in touch with a guy called Mike Shore in L.A., right? and the reason for that was so that Shore could hook him up with a guy to work on securing the rights and distributing for-profit Jack Ruby's life story and thereby gin up some money to pay for his legal defense. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that's the story. I mean, like for me, Just kind of almost a side thought. It's like your brother just shot the alleged assassin of the president on live TV. And your first thought within a day is to go to L.A.

to sell the rights to his life. There's something about that. It's just kind of odd to me. It's just kind of like, really? That's your, instantly you're like, I'm going to leave my brother and go to L.A. to sell the right it's there's something about it's just a bit weird it seems to evince to me that perhaps jack ruby whether under you know influence from his mob handlers and friends or by his own logic came to think that he would be praised as a hero for avenging the slain president

at this point in time, right? And that he would sell his rights to his life story, he would get off the hook or get a slap on the wrist, and would return to the streets in a kind of hero's welcome. Yeah, I mean, this is one of the areas where I think there's importance, significant importance to the question of that trip and that whole whatever was being worked on. during that trip, because the implications, depending on what happened, the implications affect

kind of what had been prepared in advance and things like that and what people knew. I mean, I think it's Earl Ruby himself says maybe it's in the Warren Commission testimony that he went to see Jack on the 25th and Jack gave him a card for Mike Shaw in L.A. and on that basis he goes to LA we should probably say who Mike Shore was because he's got his own baggage too here yeah well he um when Earl goes to LA

he's basically going to guys with mob connections so the three names that show up there are Mike Shaw William Woodfield and Melvin Belly and they're all mob connected and Mike Shaw was in that in that milieu and obviously known to Jack well they grew up together in

Chicago right wasn't Mike Shore part of the same click that went way back with the Ruby Boys right yes I believe so that's what Earl said to the Warren Commission yeah so again I mean that ties in with him linking up you know in the weeks before the assassination with his old crowd a Chicago crowd and he went out to California in the 30s with a bunch of that crowd and so I think again it's this whole thing of like selling the life story once again with Jack what's actually happening the people he's intersecting with well the Earl is our syndicate people and my question with Ruby saying to him go go see Mike Shaw is to what extent was Earl going there to kind activate a plan that had already been figured out for how Jack would be taken care of after the

weekend. And that's, I think, a question there. Shall I talk about the, just keep going about that trip and the others? Yeah, yeah. Before you continue, I just wanted to add that, this is from your article, that Mike Shore was working very closely in the public relations business with a guy named Marvin Cole, who was an employee, essentially, for a Lansky associate named Doc Stature, who, and Stature ran all of the advertising operations for Lansky's casinos, and was also tight with Johnny Ruselli. So once again, we are in a world of very few degrees of separation. between the people that are getting involved here and the CIA mafia nexus that was deep involved

with assassination plots yeah thank you honestly i'd forgotten that detail about mr shaw yeah right and stacker or stature is uh he's a big name as well in that lansky crowd i mean he besides the PR stuff. I mean, he's a guy who shows up on, often he's got, you know, points in various casinos and he's sort of second tier of that whole Lelansky Syndicate kind of thing. So he's going there to see Shaw. And I think, again, you know, in terms of Jack saying to, I'll go talk to Mike Shaw, I think that surely implies, again, in terms of like the only way you can read it, it implies there's something figured out. That's my inference. And given all the his connections and the history, he would have talked to Shaw at some point prior to all this.

So, yeah, and I think the bottom line for me with that trip is that, well, it wasn't, the rights were sort of part of it, but I think there were going to be funds for Belli from elsewhere, you know, regardless. But yeah, I could just give my sort of overview of how I view that whole trip, if you want. Yeah. So there's, he goes there, there's Mike Shaw and there's William Woodfield. And as I was passing it all out, it seems like. always a bad bad liar and his his testimony of course they don't follow up on any of it but he contradicts himself like back-to-back sentences kind of thing like either incompetent people interviewing him or people remarkably incurious which is i think yeah people not wanting to

follow anything up as it was with the war on commission always but what i think i can yeah sometimes i'm too hesitant with how I say these things. I'll just say I proved to my satisfaction at least that they were trying to obscure the presence of Belli on that trip and and his involvement. And what you see when you lay it all out is that Belli, well certainly he was in LA down from San Francisco representing I think in Riverside or somewhere like somewhere in California a Mickey Cohen associate at the time which is handy so he was already down there representing a mob guy and I think if you look at all of their accounts you can see that the point of the trip in part was to kind of lock in bella's involvement and that that was the plan from the start that's the other thing they try and say

that it was kind of you know oh he showed up and then Woodfield and Shaw started saying hey you know who we should talk to you need a lawyer right let's check out this Belai guy I think he's in town, you know, trying to play it off like that. And it's like, I think, no, that it was always the plan. That certainly seems to be what things point to. So I think it's getting Beli involved. We were asked to go into the case some time ago, about a week ago, shortly after this thing happened. But I'd been on trial in Los Angeles in a murder case, and I didn't want to enter another case

or make a commitment until that case was over with, and that jury is out. and as soon as that jury was out, and we came on out here. That's why who? We were asked by the family, particularly the brother, Earl, who was here in Dallas, and Earl came to my home in Los Angeles and talked to me and spent a day there. That was about four days ago or five days ago. The other guy, Woodfield, was another mob-connected guy. He was a very close associate with Sinatra.

He, sort of a Hollywood, I don't know, hangar-on, sort of provocateur, took some early photos of Marilyn Monroe and was close to, like, D.S. Sinatra. And through that, you know, you've got, that's a straight line to Jen Karner and things like that. And Woodfield ends up going to Dallas. He wrote, ended up being the guy who wrote something called My Story, which came out in 64, which was Jack's story. I was told to William Woodfield. Work of fiction. Yeah, well, something else that I'm trying to dig into is that part of the effect of him going to Dallas, what he was doing was also interviewing everyone on the ground. I would say under the guise of finding the story, but I'd also say that part of that was also finding out who knew what and who would say certain things. I would suggest it was partly there to kind of figure out what needed to be covered up and dealt with. So I think that's part of it getting him there, partly to spin a certain story about Jack, but also partly as kind of controlling the narrative and what information go out there. And then I think it's also that trip is to get Belai involved.

And as Beli himself said, even though the rest of them tried to deny it, Beli just came out and said, you know, I was, I joined the case during that trip. And that was, I don't know exactly when Earl left, but it's sometime between like 25th and he's backed by like the 28th, something like that, 27th. So within a couple of days, and Belai at the end of his meeting after he's agreed to join the case, perhaps had already agreed beforehand. But he says that his one condition was that Joe Tonnerhill joined the case. And also he started discussing psychiatrists, which is, again, very interesting. that within like two days they're talking about what psychiatrists to get on and if there's no evidence that jack was really insane and the motive is probably what psychiatrists can we get on to you know say what we need them to say kind of thing so um right there in the mix of all that you've got turning to syndicate people um and i think a syndicate lawyer in belay to some extent as an effort to kind of get the right people onto their onto the defense and also talk about talk about psychiatrists within like two days.

And another note, I may have said this in a previous one, but Beli and Tonner Hill had also been the two people who Mickey Cohen had got on to represent Candy Bar for her marijuana case in the late 50s, mid-late 50s. Candy Bar was a friend of Jack's, very close friend, and a close friend and had a turbulent fling with Mickey Cohen himself. So it's the same crowd who Mickey Cohen hired to represent her that are brought on within a couple of days to represent Jack Ruby.

Yeah. I think that says a lot. Yeah, I also wanted to share this anecdote about Seymour Ellison. Yeah. He was, I guess, Belize law partner or one of Belize law partners. Yeah, that one is fascinating. And I find it credible. He wasn't one of the main partners, but there were a few in that office.

And I think it first appears in 70s or so. I think the Hinkle Turner book, I think on the RFK assassination, and then others hear it from him again over the years, and it's the same story each time. And the story is that Ellison says he got a call on the afternoon of Ruby shooting Oswald from the way he says it is a guy of representing the syndicate in Vegas, I think a lawyer, a syndicate lawyer in Vegas saying one of our guys and the way they describe it in the earliest time this story appears and the fullest one, is that when they say one of our guys, apparently in the account of it, that's referring to a Jewish gangster specifically.

So that's the valence they had to it there. Just shot Oswald. There's a million in it for Mel, if he takes it, is the gist of it. I think there's some more in there as well. but and then he says that by the afternoon I find this the most interesting and an incredible part of it as well that it tracks with so much I mean I think it's huge personally but he says he got another call by later in the afternoon saying it's off because they had learnt that another very powerful element was involved and they

didn't want to deal with them and it's just his word and again And it's one of those things where you could say, well, it's just one guy's word. That's not something to face anything on. But I think it's interesting because it tracks with my sense of the trial. You know, that's maybe kind of a good summary of how I think it went down, is that there is this kind of syndicate angle, but there's also this other force that comes into play that I think is the simplest way to say, I guess, I guess is the state, the deep state, really. and intelligence, things like that.

So I think that's what that story kind of catches. And I believe it could be true, you know. It's a bizarre thing to lie about and very specific. Yeah. Yeah. It certainly seems that way for reasons that we'll get into once we get to the psychiatrists that start swarming around Jack Ruby. Before we do that, you know, you covered a lot about Bell-eye,

but I wanted to just give a little further context that he was one of the most famous trial lawyers in the United States at this time. And this was an era when trial lawyers were kind of superstars in a way that's not really the case today. So he was known as the King of Torts, Torts, of course, being the types of lawsuits. that you sue usually a company for money damages based on whether it's negligence in manufacturing of a product that then hurts people or some fixture that crushes somebody or a railroad that hurts an employee or a passenger or whatever. And so he was well known for winning these multi-million dollar judgments for his clients in civil litigation.

And part of his whole theatrics and his persona involved the use of experts at trial like scientists, engineers. he was also very famous for mounting like big replicas and things like that to do these highly spectacular visual productions for the benefit of the jury so he was a big personality he would have had an interest in getting involved in the case anyways as kind of borne out by the fact that like you said he almost immediately wrote and marketed a book about his experience in Dallas right after he was fired from the case yeah so a lot of mob lawyers tend to be guys who are behind the scenes and who operate sort of in the shadows but bell-eye is the opposite of that he is very ostentatious in his

personal style and was well known around Las Vegas, San Francisco, which was his home turf, and throughout the state of California. Yeah, I mean, talking about spectacle, he's like Mr. Spectacle in the legal world. I think, you know, if you want a guy who's going to cause drama, and he does and make a lot of headlines, he's the guy to go to and a guy who's just sort of, I think, a natural, yeah, media kind of guy. Years later, he would actually do a cameo in a episode of Star Trek, the original series, entitled And the Children Shall Lead, where he plays a demonic holographic entity that hypnotizes children into killing their parents and taking over the planet. And that episode was directed by none other than Noam Chomsky's first cousin. What?

Oh, I know what I'm watching tonight. Yeah, it's a good one, actually. It's a creepy one. Yeah, I bet. If he's a little, yeah. High, high, fire and so. Call the angel, we will go. Far away, far to see.

Friendly angel, come to me. My father was a zirled and faithful and obedient. That's why we take but is ours wherever we go. I would ask you to join me, but you were gentle, and that is a gray weakness. We shall exterminate all who oppose us. Our purity of purpose cannot be contaminated by those who disagree. Who will not cooperate, who do not understand, they must be annihilated. Yeah, he's, I mean, he ends up as the guy on TV talking to the Zodiac Killer over the phone.

but it's insane his like connections right to so much that becomes a huge deal in popular conscious consciousness and uh yeah every kind of i just checking his Wikipedia his clients apparently included jarja gobor errol Flynn Chuck Berry Muhammad Ali the stones so um yeah he was uh he was what's the term he was not a shrinking violet i think is the term he was and yeah again you know torts, not a murder lawyer. Right, right. Which is another point, yeah. The choice of the cases that we take.

I'm going to tell you about my baby. We do take big cases and lawmaking cases and they do attract a lot of publicity. After talking with Jack Roos, what is your question on him, sir? That he wasn't the man that I expected. to see. And I was very impressed with his sincerity, but there will be not guilty and not guilty of a reason of insanity. You know, I make my feel.

With so many people flying around on broomsticks where it's more am I to say that it isn't Halloween every day in the government. M-E-I-M-E-L-B-I-M-E-L-B-I-M-E-L-B-I-M-E-L-V-E-L-B-E. They're more nuts than Dallas, and there aren't a fruitcake, and I don't mean the type of nuts that you put in the Brug House. These are the type of nuts that will take their money, and they're sending out to right-wing organizations, and that really sends substantial, those sums of money. indirectly to change the form of government. You know and I know that that Bay of Fakes thing when it came out, that they hear the CIA, a secret branch of our government, is training our troops down in Central America to invade another country.

That completely changes our form of government. Oh, you know, it doesn't feel all right. I've seen enough that government changing of records, and that's the I changing of records, and this has armed the record, the record to know that that could be done. Yeah. Do you think Mr. Huff took a bum rat? There is no such thing as a criminal type.

He's not a criminal type. It was just his misfortune in this thing to be picked out. And when, as he said, when they point the finger at you, if they've got the eagle flying and they've got the money, then be where anybody can be done. And when Jimmy says, if they can do it to me, they can do it to anybody. Uh, I think that they can't. I think that they can't.

Oh, so loud. I'm going to shout every day, man. And if you go the other way, just as easy to make you a criminal is to give you a testimonial dinner. All right, so somebody that was more in the criminal law realm was a longtime friend of Melvin Belli, whom you alluded to earlier, that being Hubert Winston.

Smith. And it's a much less famous name, but one that in this case plays an incredibly outsized role. So you want to talk a little bit about old Hubert? He's someone who, well, honestly, I don't like doing the whole kind of giving myself credit really thing. But his name does not really appear in the record much. And I kind of found him in terms of his importance. Because, well, I mean, the first thing that drew me to him when I was just trying to be as exhaustive as possible, it was like, right, who was the lawyer when West got involved? And it was him. Well, when West formally got involved. So, West's first official involvement is supposed to be the day he sees Ruby on the, I think, 26th of April, 64. Smith, Hubert Winston-Smith, his trial lead for 70 days, some small amount of time after the conviction from, I think, late March to start of June or end of May. So it's not a time that kind of the spectacle has happened.

He's got the conviction, Belay ends up leaving the case a couple of days after the conviction and he sort of has a temper tantrum in the courtroom and starts saying Dallas is, waste of space kind of thing. He starts just brutally and very publicly in an absurd kind of way, just tearing into the city of Dallas itself and makes lots of enemies because of that. And so then Smith gets involved a very, very quiet figure compared to all that.

Smith, he was a guy whose focus was on the intersection between law and science. And he had, I was able to trace it back to the, the 40s. During the war, he was actually in the Navy in the Department of Medicine and Surgery as a kind of legal, playing a legal role, and again focusing on the connection between law and science. And then from the 40s onwards, he starts hosting, setting up institutions and hosting symposiums about law science, law-dash science. So the first time that he starts doing that is in 43 during the war.

There's a symposium at Harvard on law science and then another one in 46. And those involve crazy big names, including bizarrely J. Edgar Hoover, who submitted a paper on the FBI's crime lab that, as far as I can see, is the only time Hoover ever wrote anything publicly. So that's kind of bizarre,

other than a book about the perils of communism. And then Anslinger, the head of the FBN, also contributes to those. Federal Bureau of Narcotics in case the listener's not familiar. Right, yeah. And a bunch of other doctors and psychiatrists and things like that who were very senior in the Army or the military medicine side of things during the war. And then that same crowd ends up kind of, there's a straight line from there to the people who established the post-war U.S.

psychiatric infrastructure really. So he's there handling some trials throughout and he's also a professor at various universities and just before he gets to Texas he's at Tulane in Louisiana and he's doing these law science courses and he's got this kind of academy it changes that gets very in the weeds but there's at various points there's like a law science institute law science academy law science foundation all these kind of things. And there, basically, where he brings together preeminent trial lawyers in the country and preeminent folk working at the, you know, the edge of research that can be relevant to legal cases. And then he ends up at University of Texas. He's in Austin at the law school there.

And that's where he is when the case happens. He's in Austin at University of Texas, running his Law Science Institute and yeah long-time friend of Belli as well and they've worked together I found the letters and they worked together for over a decade well they knew each other back to I think the 40s I think Belli was involved in some of the stuff at Harvard in the 40s with Smith so it's you can say they I mean they definitely were close for over 10 years it might go back 20 years you know and other partners of Beli were close to him as well and part of these things And they, in their letters, discussed, dating back to the, I think, the 50s, early 50s, are working on various cases together where Beli would turn to Smith for help in building

the defense he, you know, he needed. There's one letter where he says, I think, in the early 50s to Smith, of course, I will require your assistance when it comes to the psychiatric aspects of the case. So that's the kind of context. Yeah, and from a lawyer's perspective, it's not hard to imagine that if you're trying these cases and you're kind of part of your whole gimmick is to be at the cutting edge of science and technology in the courtroom, then there's not a better friend that you could have than the guy who runs the Law Science Institute or the Law Science Academy because he's got access to this

massive rolodex of potential experts like you know i'm sure dick in your practice as well and i've certainly had it come up where if you need an expert you know you'll reach out there's certain people or institutions nowadays there's a lot of kind of expert mill companies that are almost like talent agencies for expert witnesses that will represent them and serve as a clearing house but before that sort of cottage industry got set up probably in the last 30 years or so in melvin bell eyes day it would have been more informal through guys like hubert winston smith um yeah i mean um and looking at the documents from the law science institute Foundation Academy, all these things, and his personal letters, his connections dated back

years with all the people that end up involved in the trial. He definitely knew West, at least as far back as 1959 personally. And he knew Belli, he knew Tonnerhill, he knew Walter Bromberg and Manfred Guttmacher, who the first psychiatrist brought onto the case, and Stubblefield as well who's another doctor so the bottom line is it's if you go with the story that it was beli doing it all it's bizarre that all these people appear kind of i mean and that this weird specific defense which i'm sure we'll get to um appears it's not at all bizarre when you understand that smith's in the picture um because it's all um that there is old friends and it's it's all his old methods. So that's the significance of him. Yeah. Another guy that Smith was connected to who is,

I don't think he appears really in the Ruby stuff, but he appears in the Oswald stuff. And so I just wanted to mention him for that reason is Alton Oshner from Tulane University, who was very much a spooked up CIA doctor. He was a surgeon more so than a psychologist. psychiatrist, but his real connection to the CIA was through his right-wing politics. So Alton Oshner, in addition to his medical practice and teaching at Tulane, he started and served as president and chairman of the organization called Inca, the Information Council of the Americas, which was a hard right-wing New Orleans Front Organization, Propaganda Front, that was doing work for the CIA, and among its many activities, it sponsored the interview

debate with Lee Harvey Oswald in New Orleans after his confrontation in the street with Carlos Bringier, the anti-Castro Cuban, over Oswald's leafletting ostensibly to promote Castro on behalf of the fair play for Cuba committee, of which he was the only member in the city of New Orleans. So just to show the deep, deep web and how far it extends around this limited, but impactful cast of characters. Yeah, I mean, once you get the connection to New Orleans as well, I mean, obviously there's so much there. And Oshner was, yeah, he was a surgeon,

but he was as like hard right and I think really felt it deeply this anti-communist hatred. He was tight with Clint Murchison, the Dallas Oilman, far right wing, who I think gifted Oshund. a Cadillac in exchange for helping him out with a surgery. Yeah, right. Well, there we go.

I mean, I think Murchison also credible case to be made that he was probably in on some aspect of Kennedy killing. And Oshner also, like, the U.S. government would actually fly certain, I can't remember exactly which ones, but certain Latin American far-right leaders, dictators that needed treatment. Yeah, Samosa, Peron, were among his, his patients. Yeah, there's a lot about him in this book, Dr. Mary's Monkey by Ed Haslam, which I don't know about all the claims in the book, and I'm not trying to vouch for all of them here, but at least the background on Alton Oshner and his milieu is well-sourced and very interesting for further reading, if anybody's interested. Yes, yeah. Oh, and another guy who gets wrapped up in this case is a good, no one. one or know the name. There's no reason to really other than this, but a guy called Gene Usden,

who was another psychiatrist guy and he was based out of Tulane and also worked at Oshner's Clinic and he's one of the guys who is recommended to be one of the first psychiatrists to join West's panel of experts, which will get to all that. But the point is it's a really small world and there's connections to real, real power centers through this guy Smith. And the kind of ties everything together. Yeah, the last point that I wanted to make about Smith is his career-long interest in hypnosis, and it's not just a passing interest. Like, he co-authored articles and co-led presentations on hypnosis with one of the big

MK Ultra hypnotists in their stable of hypnotists, Dr. Harold Rosen. Yeah, I mean, Rosen was in touch with George Estabrooks, who was a military and intelligence guy who was one of the leading hypnosis guys. He wrote the book that I think West refers to as to someone who asked for recommendations as like still the best book. He wrote a book just called Hypnosis. And Rosen was, yeah, close to Esther Brooks. And yeah, maybe we're going to mention this later. but on the day of West seeing Ruby for the first time, for some reason, Smith goes to Chicago for a couple of days

for a two-day symposium that is largely him talking about hypnosis in legal cases with Harold Rosen. So, yeah. Just a coincidence, I'm sure. Yeah, just strange, funny that. Just like it's a coincidence that. that Smith's Law Science Institute was getting a lot of grant money from both corporations and from CIA cutouts like the Rockefeller Foundation, the Ford Foundation.

We've talked about those types of organizations and their role in distributing funds for this type of covert research. yeah yeah i mean he um well there's a separate side thing that's kind of fascinating is that he had these law science things that was set up but when he was at university of texas in austin he had the he had one that was set up within the university so it was not a private operation but he also at the same time set up it was the foundation in the academy that were private and part of the conflict that ends up happening with him and the university is that he is doing all this work for these private things when he's supposed to be you know being a law professor

and um yeah i don't get into this but it's just a bizarre thing he ends up a town in colorado called crested butte that was basically completely in decline i think it was a quicksilver town something like that or in the past and then was in decline and he has that gets the money to buy up basically half of it and builds his law science academy there and there's letters i found with him appealing to the texas senator ralphi arbor who was a close friend asking for money to build that place and so he's a guy who had very high-level connections throughout his life and was able to get money for all his kind of bizarre projects or not bizarre sinister perhaps but um but yeah complicated guy and there's not much out there. He's obscure and he's always been obscure. Like with

some of the stuff I've found that was able to help me to make this case about him was at the archives in Austin here and they um I asked if they had anything about him any details about why how he left the university supposedly there was some drama about it and yeah they had boxes of papers that he'd left that were left behind when he left in Arii. and, yeah, they weren't listed online. They had an old finding aid that wasn't online. So I was able to find stuff there, but he's very obscure, but the connections were on very, very deep.

And the bottom line regarding the trial, I guess, is that this is jumping ahead, but I think he had probably the major role in shaping things during the Beli period. Well, before we get there, should we talk about assembling the psych team that Smith seems to have quarterbacked for Belli? Yeah, well, that was, I think it was Tom O'Neill who first particularly drew attention in chaos to West's involvement before seeing Ruby for the first time. and he pins it to kind of end of the year, late December kind of thing. And it was supposedly to establish a panel of impartial psychiatrists

to be added to the case to, for some reason, basically, maybe to ensure psychiatry didn't get damaged in the popular reputation, something like that, you know, by whatever mess could come in the trial. And I was able to pin down through letters in Westpapers. He was working on that as early. as, and it could be earlier, but earliest verifiable time was the 29th, which is five days after the shooting. And again, this is not discussed in his report in April, and it's never referenced that

he was involved so early on. And again, I think with all these things, my question remains, as part of the point about when there was insanity first mentioned, what evidence was there? supposedly whatever evidence was out there was enough to in the official story make you know the noble crusader good samaritan jolly west uh think god this poor jack ruby i've got i've got to i've got to i've got to help him you know this guy is gonna same with um smith and be like god this poor poor guy he's crazy and they're gonna they're gonna they're gonna be a terrible miscarriage of justice we could get involved yeah but i'm not administering drug

overdoses to an elephant. I need to take a break and help the poor killer of Lee Oswald. Yeah, yeah, because apparently so convinced within five days that this guy was definitely just insane, you know, and therefore shouldn't be charged or even hated, you know, the way he was. So bottom line is I don't think there was, I don't see what evidence there was that was sufficient enough to make him so concerned with getting involved so quickly but he does implication there being that there was another reason and then the motivation was coming from elsewhere and so yeah in the letters

I'll try and avoid getting his details too much but he on the 29th he calls a lawyer over in New Mexico called Henry Wyhofen to get him to, apparently late at night, he calls him and asks him to prepare some kind of memo ASAP to explain why it would be all right to get this panel appointed in Texas. So Y'Othon does that overnight, sends it to West, and there's a letter dated the 30th referring to the 29th when he says, call me late last night, here's this memo. So Wyhoff, and again, has connections to this whole small world of psychiatrists. He co-rent a book with one of the first psychiatrists who gets brought on board Manfred Guttmacher in the 50s. And, yeah, he had connections to that whole post-war psychiatric crowd.

So West's getting him to write this memo on the 29th. He's, you know, working hard. And there are some articles in, I think, Oklahoma papers. referencing it and some in Texas. And he's basically, what becomes clear is that by the 30th, he's got a few psychiatrists in mind, old colleagues of his and of Hubert Winston-Smiths lined up to get involved in this trial. He's referencing the head of the APA at the time, Jack Ewalt.

And I think Gina's in that guy I mentioned. He'd already said, he says in a letter, in January that West had signed him up at that time to join the case, a guy working at Austin's Clinic. So the bottom line there is that West was involved months before he was supposed to have first been involved. I don't see what the good explanation is for why he cared so much and why he was working so hard and so fast, like so soon after it and working so fast to get this whole thing set up. And again, it's the same colleagues of West's. that he turns out, they're also colleagues of Hubert Winston-Smith.

And so, yeah. Yeah, and one thing that you pointed out that I thought was highly probative of West's ulterior motives here is the fact that he lied about the genesis of his involvement in real time. So he was telling the newspaper in Oklahoma that the Dallas folks had asked him to get involved. And when they asked the Dallas folks, they said the opposite was true that Jolly West had contacted them and was inserting himself into the matter, right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Right. And then when you lay out those articles side by side, it's clear, I think, that of the people involved in that situation, West is the guy at least obfuscating, trying to obscure. where it originated from.

And that's what part of what I was trying to pin down, like, where did this come from? And what seems clear is that it's not West specifically. There's this connection to the American Psychiatric Association, which all these guys are connected to and seems to have been a very major part of this whole MK Ultra kind of world. There's that kind of connection. It's originating, well, West is the front man,

and then he's trying to obscure that it came from him, trying to say it started in Texas with people in Texas, Texas. It seems that's not true. Or perhaps if it did, it was also technically true if it was in some way deriving from Hubert Winston Smith, but, or if he was involved. But no, he's clearly, yeah, he's clearly lying, I think. And that says a lot as well. And that's his whole modus operandi, right? Like, West is a classic, I mean, it seems like a psychopath, right? Or just a total. psychopath who is a pathological liar and if you listen i'll play this clip that i think you sent me max a while ago of jolly west like talking in a crowd and kind of laughing at the idea that he was cia but of course

his relationships to the agency have since been not only corroborated but i mean documented over a long period of time and confirmed by his close collaborators as well. When I was still in uniform, a lot of things were happening that reverberate right down to the present with respect to, let's say, public policy issues concerning mind control, brainwashing, fog reform, coercive persuasion, and all these terms that have to do with what can be done to influence people to behave in ways and even to become different from the way they were before, sometimes inexplicably.

So they become like a different person, their family can't understand why. The church can't understand why a man like Cardinal Menzendi, who was in 19 of 48 transformed from a, hero of the church to show trial at Hungary, to an apparent confessor of various crimes, including that he worked for the American CIA. That was even before I was supposed to have done that. I did about as much for them as Cardinal as Cardinald Linsente did. But one thing that has impressed me as

that our government has never had a policy about this. I would give also a shout-out. I know you've mentioned Tom O'Neill's work on West, and we're obviously grateful for your own independent and original research into the West Archives. There's also a great lengthy account of West in Wendy Painting's book, Aboration in the Heartland of the Real about Timothy McVeigh, The Oklahoma City Bomber, who, wouldn't you know it, was also visited and treated by the self-same Louis Jollyon West some 30-plus years after the events in Dallas.

So he made a lifelong career of doing exactly what he did in the Jack Ruby case. and if I really have never heard a lone nutter attempt to neutralize Jolly West's involvement here, but I would love to hear one try. Yeah, I mean, the bottom line for me is that what I try to get to get across the article is that if you pull on any of these threads, if even one of these small details is kind of true, the implication is that, and I think you can prove several of them, the implication is that either it's a cover-up originating with Jolly West himself, which is, that's bizarre. So I think it's, you know, from aspects of the state, and therefore that implies knowledge

that the story was not the truth. And then, you know, yeah, I mean, that's kind of, that's the case right there. I mean, and also, yeah, what you're saying about Winnie Painting's book, I mean, amazing book overall and remarkable research in there some of the first and i think if i remember right the best it's a few dozen pages that are kind of the best really in-depth overview of west's um west curry and his involvements and things and um yeah the kind of work he did and uh the yeah it's really really good one of the threads in your article about west and his correspondence was that at some point when he's getting this panel together there is a note let's pause and call on colonel glass so the evidence i think the point to mention this and it's not exhaustive

of all that's in your article and the listeners absolutely should go and read all three parts of them but i think this is the last one we'll throw in for right now at this point who was Colonel Albert Glass. Yeah, so he, I was wondering, it's a handwritten note on the back of that memo that Weyhofen wrote on the 30th, or that he sent West on the 30th. And it took me a second to figure out which glass it was,

but it's Albert Julius Glass, and he was a very senior army psychiatrist in World War II, particularly during the Korean War, he was kind of top of the ladder, they're pioneering what they call combat psychiatry and but he was very senior well in the military and um and then actually he uh west gets him in well this all of this confirmed it was him like uh west he he i think 21 year career in the military something like that and he resigns in like october maybe yeah i think 63 suddenly to take a very senior position in oklahoma i think

as the state head of mental health, who, lo and behold, Jolly West, basically selected for the state, they turned to him, and he got glass the position, glass leaves the military, that's like October and a month later, it all goes down in, a month or so later, it all goes down in Dallas. And he's also on the APA, he's on this psychiatry and law committee in the APA, along with Manfred Goodmacher and a few others who discussed the handling of the Ruby case and so he was military as well and I think the way I see it is that West was kind of the guy the operational guy in the field the guy assigned to you know get it done and the guy who he was probably I would guess personally and bet good money on that he was the guy who West was as he says

pausing on and calling on him the guy who maybe was handling the orders for all this. So that's who he was. There's not much else there about him, at least for now, as far as I'm aware, but I think that points to kind of what this whole apparatus was that was getting deployed, I'd say, at this time. You've got West as a guy who verifiably was part of MK Ultra, and I'd say perhaps earlier things too. West also had a military connection. It was military before he went private, which was better for his CIA work. You know, he was writing to Gottlieb in 53 about working on hypnosis for M.K. Ultra and Glass is this military guy. You've got Hubert Winston Smith with his military and intelligence connections.

You've got these psychiatrists and lawyers who are all in that milieu as well. And it's a small crowd of, you know, I'd say you can pin it down to like there's a half a dozen people involved at that time in this at least verifiably unknown to being involved in whatever this effort was and yeah I think that's the bottom line there you know you put all that together and you've got and then you've got the APA maybe someone like Glass who was the guy I would guess if something like this happened it would be a higher up guy passing the orders down to someone like West who used to go and get things done and the first part of the effort was consistently what Smith and West and Belli I think through Smith were trying to do is they're

trying to get psychiatrists involved they're always trying to get more medical tests more time in hospitals more psychiatrists involved who were you know long-time friends who also had all these kind of connections to all this research and stuff and intelligence and I think when you put that together it's kind of you can get a sense of what what what was going on there um it's this there's an apparatus triggering some i'd say some kind of operation triggered to um to take care of jack yeah and yeah well take care in inverted commas but yeah right and you know once again this is taking place at exactly the same time as the CIA operation that we discussed way back in episode two of the Warren Commission decided series of convincing or perhaps forcing

LBJ against his will at the time to launch the Warren Commission to give a clean public-facing narrative of the entire sequence of the assassination and its aftermath. So you have these multiple mechanisms springing into action. And finally, to your point, I wanted to underscore this kind of wider circle around these psychiatrists that puts them not exclusively under the employee of the CIA, but also in the military, whether it's the defense intelligence agents, or some other branch of the military, but remember, and we covered this in episode nine of the Warren Commission decided with Jeff Kay, the entire mind control project or the blossoming of several such projects in the 1950s emerged out of the Korean War milieu where the U.S.

had confessed to war crimes and the government used that as an excuse to say they were brainwashed they didn't actually do any of the things that they confessed to and so therefore we need to figure out how to brainwash people so that we can defend against the enemy the classic pretext for engaging in totally unethical types of research and I say that because all of these guys or several of these guys were right there at the center of that origin story and if they weren't key players in it they were adjacent to it and clearly their role here is a continuation of the same type of activities. The term brainwashing came from, I think it was Edward Hunter then, but he was an OSS guy in CIA,

even though he resigned, he retired, he stayed as a CIA guy close to Dallas. And he writes an article in early 50s that at the same time as all this Korean War, you know, everything, that coins the term brainwashing. And so that was a CIA thing itself as well. And it's all, yeah, it's all back then. It's all originates in this particular period of time that, you know, you talked about that Jeff Kay has written so much about and all these guys who, you know,

a lot of them who show up on the Ruby case, come out of that too. And then Overhulter, who I think he talked about with Jeff about, you know, getting onto the commission or being involved. Yeah, he was senior in all this as well. And I, you know, a colleague of Yof and Guttmacher

and people like that. So, yeah, it's that same small, small crowd where the roots go back to, or particularly like the World War. or two years and then really it all kicks off in the late 40s with everything with career yeah but the point there being it's it's hard to find anyone involved in the ruby thing that doesn't have a connection to that will you it's not like there's one or two that happened to have been in the same room maybe once a few years ago with some of these people that's emphatically

what the crowd is that gets involved with the ruby thing yeah and i think this is probably a good point in time to sort of tie up this episode and get to the trial in the next episode. But just to sort of recap where we left off, going into Jack Ruby's trial, his chief trial counsel is Melvin Belli of California, who's to be assisted by Joe Tonahill of Dallas, both have a history working for mob figures and both have a high enough profile that they are known commodities on the legal scene and Joe Tonehill perhaps his high profile owes in part to his hulking size he was a massive guy and to assist them from the very get-go there has been been behind the scenes an operation of some of the leading figures in the realm of the

psychiatric profession who also are deeply tied up with the CIA's mind control research and operations led largely by Jali West who springs into action as early as the 29th and Belli Associate Attorney slash MD Hubert Winston Smith. Smith compiles a team of three psychiatrists who will all go on to testify at trial about Jack Ruby. Those are doctors Gutmacher, Bromberg, and Schaefer, and their defense, we haven't talked too much about it yet, is going to be, by reference to a condition that they purport was active in Jack Ruby's brain at the moment of the crime known as psychomotor epilepsy. And I think that we can pick up our next episode beginning with a description of what that was and how it fared at trial as well as covering

some of the other idiosyncrasies, let's say, of Jack Ruby's trial, which of course culminated in his verdict of guilty and his sentence of death by electrocution. So for now, with thanks to Max Arfo, Max, thank you very much for joining us one more time. Thank you. And I am Don. And I am Dick. Farewell. And keep on digging, folks.

Crazy. I'm crazy for feeling so lonely. I'm crazy for feeling so lonely. I knew you'd love me as long as you wanted. And then someday you'd leave me for somebody new. Why do I let myself worry? Wondering what in the world did I do? Oh, crazy for thinking,

that my love could hold you.