Frame & Reference Podcast - 101: Luke Bryant, DP of "The Last Kingdom: Seven Kings Must Die"

Episode Date: July 12, 2023

This week's epsisode is with Luke Bryant from The Last Kingdom: Seven Kings Must Die. Our conversation starts in the realm of television filmmaking, focusing on being the head of a department and the significance of fostering a positive work environment. Luke shares his insights on managing a shared vision in television shows and discusses his experiences in projects like 'I Hate Susie'. In this engaging discussion, we also turn our attention to film aesthetics and technical considerations. Luke and I analyze the task of an HOD in crafting a memorable visual experience and the strategic use of tools to manipulate an image. We also revisit popular films from yesteryears and the color palettes they used to capture the essence of their era. Our conversation also touches upon the genius of directors like Brian De Palma and Martin Scorsese, and the impact of their work on cinema. Further, we navigate the world of anamorphic lenses, discussing their depth-adding capability and cinematic appeal. We also address the challenges of filming battle scenes and the logistics involved in managing a large number of people on set. As we reflect on the artistry of cinema, we explore the use of soft light and HDR delivery, the subjective nature of HDR, and the crucial role movie theaters play in delivering the perfect visual experience. So, tune in for an insightful journey into the world of television and film with Luke Bryant. (0:00:14) - Collaboration and Vision in Television Filmmaking (0:11:40) - Exploring Film Aesthetics and Technical Considerations (0:16:59) - Anamorphic Filming and Visual Perception (0:21:20) - Artistry, Hollywood Blockbusters, and Scorsese's Impact (0:25:05) - Reflections on Art and Filmmaking (0:28:32) - Cinematic Techniques and Lighting in Filmmaking (0:34:55) - Candlelight and Projection in Film (0:42:45) - Filming Challenges and Logistics (0:53:54) - Discussion on Film and TV Technology (1:01:08) - Film and Television Fidelity and Resolution (1:11:24) - Conversation on Time and Content Length Follow F&R on all your favorite social platforms! You can directly support Frame & Reference by Buying Me a Coffee Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠Filmtools.com⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kay McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 101 with Luke Bryant, DP of The Last Kingdom, Seven Kings Must Die. Enjoy. So I'm weird. Okay, I like the only person in the film industry, I don't drink Red Bull or tea or coffee or any of that stuff. So I do take more of it, and I think also, I mean, the show that I just did,

and in fact, the show I did before that as well, I came in second blog, and I think, again, part of your responsibility when you're shooting second block in a TV show is you've got to leave from the front, obviously. You have to set a positive tone. You have to create an environment where people want to come to work. You know, I think these are all part of the responsibilities of an HOD nowadays.

It's not, we'll get to you in a minute, but it's not just about my vision and the directs vision and the aesthetic side of things. So I kind of, yeah, I kind of, I try and stay relatively high energy, but in a way that it's not too tense. You don't want people feeling that they can't approach you with a, if they can't approach you with a suggestion, or if you don't like that suggestion, then you're going to bite their head off. So I feel like it's quite, we have quite a collaborative environment. But at the same time, you also have to have to have to have to be a natural leader. So you have to be there making decisions. You've got to keep steering the ship. So I do take vitamins, but I don't take anything else.

So your endocrine system works. I think so, yeah, but I guess that's just a lack of tea and coffee, I guess. There's no caffeine in my system at all. And also, I just totally stop drinking. I mean, the schedule we just said it was crazy anyway, but I don't even like drink the weekends or I just totally shut everything down because I kind of feel like even on your day off, more off than not, you might recall, you know, the generate's blown up, this person's sitting at something, blah, blah, but you've got to manage stuff. And I just like to be as clear-headed

as possible, which I guess everybody does, right? I mean, that sounds a factor with snacks as soon as you say it, because you don't want to turn up for work, you know. I'll go over. I mean, that's definitely my uh i i enjoy a drink and uh yeah that's that's the that's the one that uh i've always wondered like oh how are all these people so thin and it's like all they can do is drink water and not enjoy themselves for months at a time but i'm on it's incredibly joy yes j and i think you're right yeah but uh that's that actually brings up a separate question which was i've asked this of a few television dps but like managing like what what what is your relationship working with the other team that's shooting a television show, you know, how are you collaborating on that shared vision?

What, you know, what kind of things are you having to do? What are you having not to do that maybe you would do on like a feature film? It's interesting. Yeah, so, I mean, the majority of what I've done is features. And honestly, what I like about features is the book stops with you and the director. That's, you know, creatively. You make all the decisions. You can kind of work on the arc of the whole film yourselves. You know, you're not paying, you don't have to be deferential to anybody else's wishes or anything like that now to believe. That said, I did, there's a couple of shows, one called I Hate Susie, which I was going to, I have a big note about that right next to the documentary. Right, okay.

And I think I did after Doctor, too. So I did, I Hate Suzy and the show are just an extraordinary. So on I Hate Susie, the first block was a guy called Tim Seindale, and our extraordinary first block was a guy called Alvaro Gutierrez. And I got on great with both of them actually. And what worked in I Hate Susie was each episode was about a different emotion. you know kind of in effect slightly mirroring the stages of grief but also it's a bit more expansive from there so tim and i we kind of yeah he what was great was there wasn't really one overarching visual language for the whole show it was i think my episodes were is it grief and anger or something

like that but the angry episode i mean it sounds when you try and verbalize something visual it kind of sounds facile quite quickly but we try and bring many of the tropes of what you might associate with the emotional anger so there was a lot of red it was very handheld. The camera was aggressively close to Billy all the way through. So Tim and I, rather than him kind of saying, can you follow this style, it was like, well, my episodes are these emotions, your episodes are these emotions. How do we think that works best? So it was actually a great relationship. Tim's work is brilliant anyway. So I didn't feel like I needed to follow his style. I just need to stay true to the emotion of the episode, which I think is quite

rare. I mean, I don't think shows are done like that. And then on the show that I just don't know, the um just extraordinary um which is it's a kind of comedy but is shot in quite specific it's quite a heightened expressionistic world um the quite you know there's it's lit i like it's teetering on the the edge of a drama in terms of it's lit and um and actually the first series had quite a strong look set and we kind of stayed within within that bracket um but for me you know the kind of works i like the look i mean i don't shoot a ton of comedy but i like the look anyway. So it, it kind of felt like, I didn't need to tweak too much with the luts or the lighting or anything like that. I mean, my lighting, possibly there's a bit more contrast

across the faces than Albrose. I think Alvro, she's more kind of soft top lighting, but I think you'll watch episodes 1-2-8, and I think the audience will not even be able to tell the difference. Right. Which is kind of as it should be, right? You don't want to, you don't really want to pop the audience out of their seats too much when you're doing something like that, even if it's an expressionistic world. And, I mean, I think maybe on our blog, you know, there's a bit less camera movement like I think where at one point I was saying imagine if David Finch was making a comedy so the camera only moves if the act moves otherwise it's just dead still um I've definitely done that mental exercise what if David was shooting this

no totally I did um I did a film a couple years ago called dead in a week uh which has got uh tom won't consider in it and uh I think it's my favorite it was my favorite kind of the low first low budget films I think and I just every day me and the gaff would say how How would Roger Deacons do this if he had half a percent of the budget he's not only gone? And that just kind of, I mean, obviously, you tend to find your own style, but I think at that point in my career, it just helped me to have a goal in mind in terms of, I mean, obviously not comparing my work to Roger Deacons. I'm just saying having his work in the back of my mind in terms of, I don't know, like the lighting ratios, the quality light and face those kind of things.

yeah for me it's always been like uh someone like deacons or deacons specifically gives quote unquote gives me permission to shoot simply and because i because i think that finchers work is actually relatively simple lighting wise i mean he's had multiple ds i've interviewed two them and um they they've both been Eric didn't you yeah it's cool Eric and uh Cronin Wentz um and not that they said it explicitly, but it did seem like he, you know, he knows what he wants, he's going to give them what they need to do it so that they can work quickly and get the most takes that they need with the actors, let the actors work all day and let everyone else chill. I thought David Fingcher is in that bracket with Stanley Kubrick of directors that would have been

phenomenal cinematographers. So I feel like they probably come so prepared with such specificity in terms of what they want. like I watched last year I watched the like the first three alien films and actually I know Alien 3 is maybe not quite successful I don't care I love Alien 3

I've put the coverage in it and what David Finch is doing with the camera and just just watch it from in terms of the way that drama is blocked in that the low angle seeing all the tops of the sets I was like wow there's a hell of a lot going on here that I haven't really tweaked about so yeah he just watching

and there's a great thing is there that one it's the classic one I'm sure I've seen it come somewhere in 7, where you're in Lee Elamese, he's the police officer, you're in his office, got Brad Pitt and Morgan Freeman, and the coverage in that well, coverage is a dirty word really,

but it never feels like coverage. Every time you cut, the shot that comes next advances to the storytelling and tells you something different about the relationships between the characters. And that's film. I mean, that's the difference between film and TV, right? TV, narrative, I feel it's kind of exposition and dialogue based, generally

I'm kind of oversim fine. But in film, the story goes forward, And that's, that's what Finchie does. You know, so I'm just telling you the plot. I literally, the podcast I did, I don't know when it's going to come out, but I'm backlogged a little bit. I got there will be, I think, eight episodes before yours comes out. So it's going to be. But the last one I just did physically, like last four days ago, that woman said the exact same thing because she had just shot a big long television show.

And she was like, yeah, the difference is. it's it's all just people talking is television like get the plot moving it was the person who shot peri mason and so um oh do you know that's really interesting because i didn't see the first series of that but i just saw the trailer for the second series and i thought it looked great i was like and it feels period in a way there's been a couple of films recently set in the 40s you just feel very shiny contemporaneous and perry mace i was like that looks good so yeah okay well and that one speaking of fincher i didn't tell her this but but But I was like, that was a lady, right? I'm pretty, God, I'm so I'm pretty sure it was like, before I was the third. I mean, I mean, really straight now, because I thought it looked great, actually. That was, I have to cut this out. Yeah, yeah.

Marley Revis. Oh, yeah. Mariala Revis. She's from Chile and is fucking. cool but so she she mostly shot movies uh won a bunch of awards for all her films and worked on parameson and i didn't say this out loud but it was part of my note was like that that season two season took the fincher approach to um uh uh what do you call it when it's an older movie when it looks solder. Why am I blanking? Oh, it worked. Period. A period piece, yeah, where it's, you know,

like with Mind Hunter, it's a period piece, but it still looks, looks modern, but like all the set design and the costuming does all the heavy lifting. Like, season two of Perry Mason doesn't really, there's maybe a little bit of fun stuff going on with the lens, but in general, it's the set design and the costuming that makes it look, period, and not like, ooh, let's put a big film grain on it and, like, shoot on Baltars, you know? Yeah. So, so funny you mention that, because Because I, I, it's tricky, isn't it? So, like, say, for example, when you watch, say the new Lord of the Rings show that Amazon did, it's still, I mean, obviously, it's set in a kind of a slightly mythic period, well, it's a very mythic period, which feels historical. But when you watch the show, it feels relatively contemporaneous, I think, whereas when you watch, say, just because you mentioned Super Boltars, where if you watch the Godfather, which was made in the 70s, but say in the 40s, I mean, I remember even as a kid, well, teenager watching it and thinking that it had this.

sense of period specificity, so it felt like it was set, or it was a series of photographs in the time period it was from. And so I'm quite keen to do that kind of thing. So like even with the last kingdom, the film that I shot that just came out last king, the Sem Kingsbrustay, obviously there were photographic equipment in the whatever 900s. Right. I think that we have, we have certain expectations, or cultural expectations, historical expectations of what certain time periods should look like. And I mean, so, you know, we had quite. like desaturated image, we added a lot of film grain because you have a sense of there is a kind of a gau as a haziness that you're looking through historically. And it doesn't always

have to be something that was historic and accurate. Like if you look at an, there was a film called This Is England that came out a few years ago. And that was set, it's really interesting film. Actually set in the Midlands in the UK, I mean, brilliantly shot. And what they did, like if you look at the emotions that Kodak had released around that time period, like late 70s, the emulsions, they were quite earthy, quite brown, they're quite kind of walled earth, like quite organic emulsions.

52-47. Yeah, that man, I can't even remember those, that kind of thing, exactly. The blade runner's stock. I looked up a lot of film stocks in my life for no reason because I'm a fucking dork. I was going to say, that's the nerdiest thing I've heard all week actually. And I'm such a nerd that I actually, I've just had

a Jordan Krona West season. So I watch Blade Runner, then I watch Cutter's Way, altered states and then Rolling Thunder I'd never seen Rolling Thunder Warner of God I mean you can see why he got the Blader on a gig

those three movies just like I haven't seen Rolling Sun anyway I'll have to watch it yeah go Rolling Thunder is good it's like I think it's I feel like

Tarantino's new book he talks about it's like what his whole movies and he's got an edge of kind of exploitation but with enough kind of craft on it that you feel it's kind of elevated

and probably Lee Jones is crazy in it so it's great yeah but yeah so you don't always have to be, so what this is England does so well is it, it actually has a different look to the way that films looked in that time period, but it still gives you a sense of being from that time period because of the way they can base it to the look. So you don't always have to be of that time period, but I kind of feel like you need to have some nod. Like, I mean,

I find with most digital cameras nowadays anyway, and with resolutions going up and up and up, the image is just too sharp. Like, I feel if I could shoot a 2K image on old lenses, which, in fact, I did a couple of years ago, projected on it, because it looked great. You know, you kind of, you know, 4K is sometimes a bit too much, so 6K, but, you know, there are different requirements going on. I'm definitely, so I hopefully, this will be, this is going to sound bad if this episode doesn't come out, but I think I get to interview Steve Yedlin on Sunday. He's a technical genius, that guy. Well, and so that's given me.

a lot of his articles and I hope if he does listen to this for some reason I don't want him to know he won't because it'll happen on Sunday it'll happen before I talk him but I'm hoping not to yeah I'm hoping not to hit him with too many technical questions because I can tell every interview I've heard him do he gets fucking bored of it

which I would too you know if you're George Lucas and everyone wants to talk about Star Wars you know he's yeah the George Lucas of camera knowledge but that's a weird analogy anyway the I think that resolution due to his articles doesn't actually matter as much. But what you're saying about the lensing absolutely does.

I'll shoot a to 8K image on the V-Raptor. As long as you have a lens that resolves the amount, I suppose, that you want it to, you'll still achieve that look. Or you can even just downres it, blur it, and post. We have so many tools that allow us to manipulate the image to be what we want, that I'm now of the opinion that you might as well just capture the highest quality you can and then fuck with it in post. But I also edit my own stuff.

So I know, I color my own stuff. I know what I'm getting. You know, when I work for other people, it's a little different. It's interesting, isn't it? So the door definitely swings both ways with that. So, like, I think Steve stuff is really really interesting. And a lot of his papers, I mean, his thoughts actually are kind of incorporated into grades that I've done to make it more filmic. Yes.

And I think, I'm pretty sure when he sent the Last Jedi, it was 50% digital, 50% felt, and I defy anyone to tell you which bit to which. I mean, it's, I actually, honestly. I actually know. You can. No, no, I can't. But I, but I, but I know. So, well, this, this is 30th hand information. But I'm pretty sure it's, he shot all of the older cast with film and all the younger cast with digital. And it wasn't for, it wasn't for look. it was for workflow because the older cast was used to the cadence of film and they then marks you know blah blah whatever yeah they were just used to that start stop thing whereas the younger cast wasn't

so they shot Alexa for them and film that's really interesting so it becomes it's a performative thing as well that's really interesting I guess actually fun enough just to go back to what you were saying about shooting it till you know

I did a TV show in the UAE like eight part drama for a company called NBC see they're quite a big streamer out in the Middle East. And it was great. They gave us carte blanche, actually, to do whatever we want. But we shot Alexa Mini with Master Primes. And then when we came to the grade, we had a colorist, Canadian woman, actually,

that lives in London there called Jody Davidson. She was absolutely just incredible colourist. She's done, well, she did that show. It's seen, she did souvenir part one and part two. So she's done, like, some really amazing stuff. And then what we did, we kind of, apart from all boring bits from Steve Yedlin's in terms of the image, we also, we defocused the frame in the corners to give me a slight feel of anamorphic.

So, and I watched, um, I don't know, I watched Pabillon. Yeah, exactly. So we, I watched Pabillon. There's a shot early on in the first five minutes of Pabion where you can just see all of the defocusing of this anamorphic lens. So I was like, can we just build that? And then we did, we didn't do it as aggressive as with that, but we put it on every single frame of the whole

our TV show and it worked a tree. I mean, I'm not sure anybody. You've actually noticed maybe it was due self, but I'll do that. So you different, yeah. I was going to say, I'll do that and I also do the center bulge. I'll chuck, even if I'm not, wow, yeah.

I've matched that center bullshit. So mumps, what we call anamorphic mumps. Yeah, but sometimes it looks better. Like, I've done it on corporate stuff too, where I'm like, I don't know why, but this looks better. Like, it makes it little, it gives you that kind of when used correctly

it will give you that kind of cook 3D looking thing you know what I'm talking about yeah so when I was preparing to do the Last Kingdom so the previous five series the Last Kingdom

had all been shot spherical and I think on Alex Mini I think with Ultra Primes and I think at 2K and it actually really shoot the show because you could fit I think that's one of the reasons they went Alex Mini

with Cooks on The Last of Us because there's kind of feel the lightness of the camera there's an immediacy to it. It's more reactive.

It feels like it's more there with the actors. But when it came to time to do the film of the last kingdom, we basically decided

that because it's a true of our feature, we kind of wanted a slightly more epic canvas, slightly bigger, bigger cameras to be working.

So we ended up going a large format anamorphic. And as I was kind of researching all this, I basically have to do a pitch

document to the to the production company Cardival. Just to kind of really supportive. I've got to say brilliant. but obviously they need a bit of convincing

because it's changing what you've been doing for the last six, seven, eight years. And what I hadn't realized what was quite interesting is that basically when you shoot anamorphic, the point at which the light beams converge through the lens, so in a normal spherical lens, it's a single node.

So light beams converge at a single point because the width of the height, it's a single, you've got a single node. Whereas with anamorphic lens, because you've got a horizontal field of view that's different to a vertical field of view, you've got dual node so the light beams converge at two different points

and I think that's one of the reasons that anamorphic just feels so three-dimensional you know it just yeah for me if you see a close in anamorphic you almost don't need a battle light the actors are just stepped away from the background immediately and plus that kind of you know you grow up watching Reds of the Lost Ark

and close accounts third kind of all these kind of movies and you just associate Anamorphic with Hollywood and that kind of the media production of it's not something I mean you and I can tear and waffle about it all day, but it's not something or the audience can necessarily verbalize, but they get it. And the audience will see it and go, oh, that feels like a movie. Yeah.

So, well, it's that, yeah, that's that dual note thing, the three-dimensional, you kind of, yeah. I didn't, I didn't, I never put those two things. I mean, obviously the height and width thing, but I didn't, I didn't even think about that. It was the light hitting a diffuse spot on the sensor. That's very interesting. I, uh, but also to your point about audiences not being able to articulate anything, I've, long since given up on trying to explain to people how like why we should do something and and i've stolen a quote from um john mayor who was talking to he was on some podcast and he was like uh

if you do a mock up for one of my albums and you use a free font i'm firing you and the guy was like what and he goes i can't you can't your your brain can't figure out that it's a free font but your heart does you can tell when there's artistry not there or not there you know, and so it's the same thing with like, yeah, yeah. Well, I think audiences can audience like audiences can be dumb. We've seen fandoms be dumb, you know, but the human, any human has a certain set of emotions and feelings

when they watch something that will change with life experience, but in general kind of all react similarly. So like it, but it's all, you know, inspired by a previous. So what you're saying about like with Spielberg's films, because he has set the tone for what a classic Hollywood blockbuster is, we all, whether we know it or not, associate that look with classic Hollywood blockbuster.

And you can trust, unless the audience has not seen a movie, you can trust that they're going to make that association, you know. Yeah, I think you're telling you right. And you just kind of, and there is a certain thing that goes handed down with that as well to scale and the size of the sets. And it's interesting your point you're saying about as you kind of get older, you notice things.

Because when I was younger, I was never, it's just slightly sacrilegious, but hear me out. That's this old podcast, man. I was not the biggest fan of Marks-Horsese. But in the last five, six, seven years, I've just gone back and watched all of his working again. And I'm just, okay, the guy's just a total genius. And I kind of felt like all of that generation of the, what I do want to call the movie brats or the geniuses. So when I was a teenager, I was kind of obsessed with Brian De Palma, because I just thought what he did the camera was just insane.

So he was almost my favorite director. Whereas now I kind of, you look at the work of Scorsese, and I feel like he, he's almost the only one of that generation that's still doing stuff. It's examining heavy questions and that has an artistic profundity and validity to it. Like if you look at a film like silence, you know, I mean, that's a phenomenal film. kind of, you know, looking at the nature of faith and, you know, all of those kind of things. Whereas his peers, they're not really making those kind of films anymore. I mean, I guess they're not really getting the opportunity to, which is not to say that Spielberg's making bad films, but Scorsese seems to have a kind of an intellectual

gravitas that he still wants to tackle these subjects. And in fact, his new film, because of Flamoun, I actually, I read that last year before I realized he was doing it. That's kind of, I mean, if he can do justice to that book, I mean, that's going to be really interesting actually. Well, tastes have certainly changed. Going back to annoying fandoms, like, I actually,

well, I just, and I do want to get back to Seven Kings, because I watched it last night. And there's a few things that you mentioned that I wanted to touch on. But in terms of Sorsese, I went off, when all the Star Wars fans are getting all mad at him for having opinions

that I think are relatively valid, I went and bought his entire world cinema project on Criterion because they were having that 50% off sale. and I was just like when people were like what have you done like all you do is make gangster movies and I'm like you know this man went to different countries and physically found reels of film to bring back like he's done a lot for cinema on the whole like for the world more than just his gangster and also I think gangster movies make up like a third or something of his films people just those are the popular ones but he definitely like you can't I don't think you can unless

you're a real um troubled kid I don't know if you can watch the god father at 13 and be like, fuck, yeah, this is my film. You know, like, it's definitely for, if you're like a parent or at least old enough to understand family dynamics from a, from a, you know, 30,000 foot view, I think like that film, for instance, is, is difficult to grasp on an emotional level. Yeah, and I think it's like you say, like all great arts, whether it's literature or film, I feel that as, as one gets older and becomes wiser, more experienced. hopefully more intelligent, hopefully happier.

As things change in your life, I think great art reflects that back at you. So you might, you know, you kind of, you know, and again, it can be very specific to what you're going through in your own life of that particular time of period, but great art, I think, reflects a lot of the things back at you that you go through. And again, with The Godfather, I remember watching that as a teenager, me like, okay, yeah, that's fine.

And then if it's right, yeah, that movie just seems to get better and better. Yeah. And it's weird because, I mean, I was kind of obsessed with, So my, when I was younger, I was obsessed with Kubrick in the parliament. I just watched the films again and again and again. And I've kind of found that they both have a type of emotional and psychological detachment. And as I got older and become a bit more emotionally intelligent, which is partly through what we were going back to earlier,

like running a department and having to work on your people management skills. And as I've become a bit more emotionally intelligent, I think that their emotional detachment and their psychological coldness turned to me off a little bit more than it used to. I mean, I still really enjoy the films. But there is, you know, there's a kind of a 2001. I mean, that was, that and Blader under the two reasons I do what I do, basically. But there is still a detachment of the coldness there that feels like it's very much of the

artifice and the surface where I think Scorsese lets you into people and into characters and the complexity of the human psychological makeup in a way that they don't quite. but I mean, I can feel like hate mail already starting it. I love Kubigalis. I love DePaul. I'm sorry. Well, luckily this, what I've learned about this podcast is it's almost exclusively the guests who have been on it and like hyper DP nerds and no one else.

So there's been no hate mail. No, I've never, I haven't, I haven't even received like a tweet about someone who lives. I keep asking my, my distributor. I'm like, does anyone listen to this? They're like, yeah, you know, you get like, I don't know, like 500 an app. episode and then there's another like three on YouTube and I'm like all right I guess they exist I don't know they're somewhere um but to you I wanted to go back because there's this point in uh seven seven Kings Must Die where it's like this wide shot of the guys coming it's kind of earlier in the film but like they're coming off this hill and it's kind of like a silhouette and you've got that edge fudginess that you were talking about and in the back of my head I was like all right either that's an old lens or we did that in post but I can't tell. So I guess it's good. So you know what? So I think that was in the lens. So we shot on the cook large format animorphics. Right. Which a similar to super safe. No, no, it's the kind of

difference. Actually, the S7s are spherical, I think. So these things are like, I mean, we used a 180 a lot and it's, it's a beast. I mean, it's like, it's like a primo. It's just a huge piece of glass. Right. But what's really interesting is they've built in a lot. lot of that aberration into the lenses themselves. So they resolved, you know, they probably result 200 line per per millimeter or whatever it is in the center of the lens. But around the signs, they totally fall apart. And they're similar to the Super 35 Animorphic set the Cook have.

A couple of years ago, I was shooting a film out in Budapest, a film called The Reckoning, which is directed by Neil Marshall. And Kerry Duffy, who's a cook at the time. and he happened to stop by the studio set and he was telling me there were two lenses in that set that called the Pringle lenses because if you imagine a Pringle and the way a Pringle is shaped

then you orient that up that's how they built the focus into the lens so this would be out of focus that's in focus this would be out of focus that's in like that so the focal image or the image plane I'm not quite sure what the proper term is

is shaped like a brain And you can really, I mean, there were two lenses, it was like the 75, the 100 or 75, the 135, the 1,35 in the Super 35 animorphic set. It looked crazy. I mean, we actually had, I've got a rom-com coming out later this year. There's one shot in it. We're in the gray. The producers were like, sharpened that up. And I was like, sorry, that's the lens. It's not going to get any sharper. So again, why sharpening? It's not going to look good. Yeah. But yeah, they called them the Pringle lens. So I guess, you though these are the large format cooks, it was the same idea. They built a lot of that edge of distortion in. And I mean, I like it. I mean, it's kind of what we needed, you know. Well, and to your earlier points about needing to have it look somewhat, period, to kind of fit some form of older aesthetic, I had a note here about how I think you had just the right amount of diff on the lens, or even if it wasn't diffusion, like just enough, it wasn't like that full white net that they used to use back in the day, you know, it was tasteable.

taste-film amount of diffusion. So we kind of, again, so when I build, I guess, the narrative, or sorry, the aesthetic arc of the film, it obviously has to match the narrative. But I, so you look at changing the way that you light certain scenes and the way that you diffuse certain scenes so that you got this arc that applies that all the way through. So what we did was, there was varying degrees of diffusion. And we were using, I think it was the Tiffin, black saturns or the black, Melissa, And I think it would have been one-eighth or one-quarter, so not a particularly heavy.

But we would kind of build that up for certain scenes. And then basically, by the time we got to the end of the film, where we talked about, we wanted a kind of a slightly snappier, sharper image. So that final battle sequence, all of the diffusion has come out of the lens. And we went from being kind of anamorphic, like edge to edge for the drama scenes, where we try and fill as much of the frame as possible to doing that kind of George Miller Mad Max trick. So during the battle sequence, it's just like crosshairs. I was just like center up everything.

So the audience doesn't have to look around the frame. They're just looking right in the middle of the lens. So we went from a diffused image where we used the width of the frame to a slightly non-diffused sharp image where everything was sent to focused. And then we also used a trick. It shot with 144 degree shutter. Sure. Which actually, yeah, which is kind of interesting.

So you don't notice that it's shutter. And that was a trick I picked up from Shane Hilbert on Terminator, Salvation. Oh, sure. I think that movie actually, I know it didn't get a lot of love, but the film looks great. I, yeah. A very strong look. And he shot the whole thing with a hundred 44-degree shutter, so it doesn't feel like saving private Ryan, but everything just hangs

in the air a little bit more. Everything feels a bit sharper than you normally expect it to. So that was just something that we kind of built in to the visual arc of the film. So hopefully they have a bit more bite, those images for the final battle sequence. Oh, it looks great. And actually that, I did want to talk a bit about the lighting, because especially now that you said you've done rom-coms, you know, people would think, oh, drama, a lot of lighting, colloquially, obviously, we know. But comedy, not as much, you know, you shoot it natural or whatever, which I think you've probably found this.

It's the opposite. You can use less lights and drama and way more lights and comedy. You are totally right. There's something, so the film I've just done for Disney is, sorry, the show, not film, is a comedy. And the comedy that I've got coming out in September is a feature called, it was going to be called Statistical Probability of Love at First Site, and they changed the time to Love at First Site. So we'll see.

It's a film for Netflix. But actually, the thing about shoot comedy is you need more film light. So, you know, for drama, when I was shooting, you know, I shot some stuff where we'll have ned the ceiling, we'll have covered, everything that's outside of the frame is covered in black material. The only light is at the window, and there's nothing else. So, I mean, you've literally got one a line, maybe an 18K come through the window or something like that. That's doing the whole scenes.

Everybody's just got a ribbon light and put the camera back to it towards the window. You cannot do that in a comedy. You get fired a day one. So you find yourself kind of trying to get interesting ratios across the face. And again, there are elements in, I wish I'd done a bit more of it in Seven Kings, actually. But there are a few scenes where you can see the ratio is kind of from lit to shadow. So you kind of go for this, you know, Chiara Escorto, that Italian term, which he's kind of associate with Caravaggio's work.

Or, you know, they also call it tenorism or mannerism, whatever you want to call it. But it's about super inky shadows, moodiness, and real, real drama across the face. So something as opposed to Rembrandt, which is here. Exactly. Well, exactly. So, so weirdly, the comedy I've just done, the Rembrandt thing was a bit more of a reference for us because you'll get that Rembrandt triangle on the full side of the face, so the light wraps around a little bit up rather than it being just from one side.

So I think, like, Rem Rape was comedy, Caravaggio for drama. Yeah, but we were always trying to, you know, I think for me, I'm always trying to get a bit drama in the face, like occasionally I'll see a shot I've done when, you know, it looks a bit like this, the ratio is just kind of flat, that and that side equivalent exposures. And I just, I hate it. When I see that, I'm like, oh, you ball stand up, why did you do that? But sometimes you have to because you're facing a window or, you know, it's not the other Right. But I'm always trying to get some kind of drama across the face as much as possible.

Well, I wanted to commend you on your work on the Seven Kings Must Die film because it looks great. But it brought up an interesting question that I think people who are learning or I mean, I'm obviously going to learn from this answer too. But because it's in the early 1900s or late 1800s or whatever it is, you've got the two very, you're literally back to basics. you got candlelight you got fire and you got the sun yeah and that's it we can't we can't pretend that anything's anything else um and there's a lot of fucking candles and torches in this movie but uh yeah yeah but i wanted to know like how much like earlier in the film there's like a scene where everyone's at like a tavern and then the lady comes in is like this motherfucker who's dead and uh i'm wondering was that just all right that you put that knowing dby i like that yeah uh one down

but I kind of wanted using that as an example and anything else you want to bring up like you got a shit ton of candles in there did you just light a shit ton of candles and then maybe like a space light and then throw in Negg because that's what I would have done but I don't know what you were dealing with

on that day if that was a set what the deal was. It was a really similar process to that actually said there was a softbox that they'd always had in the ceiling of that set that was the main Bevan Hall Bebenberg main hall I think so it was a small shopbox in that set

which we had on like probably five or ten percent like nothing reach and then it's you know I think with the art department as well you kind of we've asked that you know everything gets painted down a little darker than it would normally be so it's a tonal too darker anyway and then and then we basically I think what do we do yeah turn the candles and then a couple of small sources just off camera to bring some shape it so we didn't we didn't add a huge amount I mean trying to think the lens is what speed was a 2.3 so two and a third so not the fastest not a lot like a master prime of 1.3 or whatever.

But I think you also, in terms of our approach, you wanted to get the sense that the light and the heat was coming from those sources. So it had to feel more saucy than that. Which is tricky because, I mean, one of the things that was quite tricky for us was you also have an HDR delivery. Now, obviously, HDR, where your brights white is. So in SDR, you know, it's like 100 nits or whatever.

In HDR, it could be 1,500. And this, I mean, this is entirely subjected. In fact, I was just listening to a podcast a week ago, the guy that shot Yellow Jackets Series 1. He really loved to push. I mean, I thought he did great work actually, but what was his name? Kim. Anyway, a really interesting guy, a lovely podcast. And he really likes to push all the whites up.

So when you're out in a snowstorm, the white's like a thousand nits. So you're going to get blinded just looking at your TV set. Whereas for me, I hate that. I mean, I just, again, it's entirely subjective. But I can't really deal with that HDR look. So what we did in the grade, the colorist Jatine Patel, who he built all the luts as well. We basically set all the candlelight as near to 100 nits as we can get away with.

Sometimes it's up at 200. So the HDR grade is very similar to the SDR, which is just, again, it's entirely subjective, but it's just my taste. I'm not really a fan of that very strong HCR look where you just feel like you're showing off the parameters of your TV set. But I feel like too, HDR shadows exist too. Like, I know everyone wants to talk about the top nits, but you can, you can, you have bottom nits as well, you know?

Yeah, you totally do. And it's, and I guess it's also just like, you know, I kind of grew up in cinemas and movie theaters, you have like a movie projector, it's like 50 nits or something like that. So you kind of, although I've got to say, the last couple years I found myself, maybe it's just getting old, going to watch a moving game, that looks like they're not projecting it bright enough, but I'm probably just getting used to like a thousand bits on the TV. No, I think your eyes are actually correct. There's, I mean, I'm lucky enough to live next to a nice theater, like a fan, not that the theater's fancy, but it's in the fanciest mall I've ever fucking seen in my life.

Like, nicer than in Beverly Hills and it's a century city for anyone who's in the area. But that AMC is like never bad. And then I'll go to one that's in somewhere else. And it's like, oh, all right. No, I'm, I'm being treated nicely over here because this is like one time, oh man, one time I went to the to a movie theater. Sorry. Went to a movie theater and the center channel was dead. dead. Oh, wow.

So all the dialogue was just and I'm like sitting there just like, live it. And my friend's like, I can't tell. And I'm like, oh, I love that for you. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, God. I went and saw, you know, solo when that came out. They were shot by Branford. Yeah, Bramford Young.

So his style is like super low key, really moody, really interesting. Love his show. But again, they projected it so low that I couldn't see what was going on. You know, there was Like a sense of state just, and you could tell you was a projection thing, it was just the film. That just sent to work and not being able to separate, you know, and that's the problem is when you take creative risks like he does, every part of the pipeline, every part of the food chain is going to be doing what they're supposed to do. Otherwise, you know, you spent

tens of millions of dollars. He puts in all this work, all this effort, all this beautiful lighting. And then the last link in the chain, they can't project it right. And you're like, oh, Jesus. You know, the image just kind of falls apart. So I was lucky yesterday. So I colored my friend's new documentary coming out. And he goes, hey, do you want to come to the theater? Because they can't do a distribution yet. They have to like show it. I don't know what the anyway. He goes, do you want to come to the theater and check the grade? And I go, okay, great. So we go over there. And I'm watching it. And him and I both are like, all right, this looks good. Which really made me have because I was like good. My screens actually calibrated correctly because I wasn't. I'd never had this experience. We're sitting there. I'm like, it's a little desaturated. And then the projectionist hands me the remote. And he goes, oh, just change whatever you want because it was, it's not like a theater projector. It's a very nice like prosumer projector. So I just had the remote and I just pumped up the brightness and changed the mode from presentation to real because I guess presentations for like slideshows.

And yeah, immediately it looked exactly like migrating. Oh, there it is. All right, we're good. And so there you got. I want of probably a billion DP or a colorist to actually get to go to the theater and fix it for the audience. That's great. I haven't, oh God, I did a short film years ago, 2009 now, with an old friend of mine, and he took, the film got into Ciches Film Festival in Spain.

And he took the film, oh, God. And when they projected it, the post house had basically saved the wrong settings onto the DCP. So it projected without a grade with the temp voiceover. It was his voice doing the voiceover with like all temp sound. so the lights come down the film comes up and he just kind of goes oh it's just like

did they show it you know yeah they just went because the other one minute short film so they went through with it and I was just oh man and I guess he you know he didn't have to talk to it because it's a DCP or whatever

and they basically copied over the wrong folder oh man that's just so you know it's a great it's a great short film you gotta go to the Q&A and be like yeah we made some interesting choices on this one yeah exactly

and we just to really kind of indie sound yeah strip away the artifice man but I sorry I get

you've heard this podcast before I fucking run around but I wanted to go back to the film because we were talking about the candle thing but I also wanted

to talk about the exterior shots in two ways one managing sunlight because I think you know the average person

goes and shoots outside and goes why doesn't mine look cinematic and two the logistics of dealing every scene seems to have 150 extras and like stunts going on

so I was hoping you could talk about those two elements of shooting outdoors with no seemingly no modifiers so the weather the light I should weirdly when everybody asked me what the biggest challenge on the film it sounds nuts but it was actually the weather

so when we were shooting in that battle scene I think we I think it was eight or nine days when second unit we were running four cameras and drone and it was just there was one day I have to put the photos up at some point

it's in the space of three hours we had blazing sunshine crazy snow sleet wind Jesus and hey it was insane it was totally insane

and because we got heavy wind we're about an hour and a half outside of Budapest in a beautiful valley where the battle's all kind of taking place and the biggest

frame that we can put up is a 20 by 20 because we don't have the manpower I mean you know we can't get condors in there or, you know, Manitoues or anything like that.

So we've got the whole electrical grip team manning these these 20 by 20s as they're blowing all over the place. And that was the limit that we could do. We couldn't even get in. We literally had one 20 by 20 that we had to walk around. And so, and you can, I mean, you can, in the battle sequence, you can definitely see

where we've had to work on, you know, we're kind of trying to type the frame and put every single person in that frame. But you can definitely see in the grade. I mean, Jack did a fantastic job, but you can definitely see eye to my eye. where the sun suddenly come out or suddenly pops out of being covered by the frame

in the back shot and all this kind of stuff. So it was a real challenge and even in the some of the kind of the courtyard interiors every time the sun comes out it just flound out in the image.

So obviously we're trying to make everything as back as possible and there's a couple of scenes which we shot in drizzling rain and to me they're just for crate like if we could have shot everything in that kind of rain I'd have been super happy

the ground looks right the light's really soft overhead everybody looks kind of miserable it just works but it was really sunny I mean it's really cold but it was really really sunny and also the orientation

in the battle to make the narrative sense of the battle work we had to put our heroes kind of at the bottom of a slight incline or a slope the only one that we found of all the locations

that we looked with meant that our heroes were facing south which means they were looking directly into the sun if it ever happened so we spent a huge amount of time just trying to deal with it

and even in the set to have in the sets As soon as the sun came out, we had to send it, like, flies hot as 20 by 20s, everything just to cover the sun as much as possible. So it was a real challenge. I mean, it was, you know, and then it's a strange, because there were a couple of shots where we shot it on overcast days, and it just looks great, and you're like,

right, you should have all looked back, but, you know, it is what it is. So, oh, it is the second part. So, sorry, you were saying about the numbers. Oh, just the logistics of shooting giant crowds, because I think on the lower budget, certainly on my, minuscule budget shoots, you know, you're dealing with three people. And so I can manage like dealing with three people in my head. Even if they're running around, I got it.

But like 40 people, I don't know like how you, you know, what's the pre-production light on that? Obviously, you must be shot listing the shit out of it. But like, just how is that kept efficient? Yeah, I mean, we should like you said, we shortlisted the whole thing. What I tend to do with my shortlist is. So I kind of build a narrative arc and I guess that's all for me

where I divide the film into always true like a piece of music so it's a symphony with four movements so you have three acts and the final act and generally has

there's a little pivot in the final act so it kind of assigned a look and a feel to each one of those movements and that becomes your overarching aesthetic approach I feel like I read that

Anthony Dodd-Mantle that's right I came across Anthony Dodd-Mantle does that so I kind of borrow that and that's such a great way of structuring your narrative look but so

So, sorry, what was I going to say? So, yeah, so with this, just in terms of the numbers of the people that we had, I also tend to do a shot list that becomes almost like a narrative retelling with visual references of the whole thing. So it's a spreadsheet with the shots, the locations, all the kind of stuff. But then I will write out the story of what we're trying to achieve, and they'll put visual references from all the films. I mean, the mood board was just like, it must have been over 100 pages.

It was a crazy amount of, it was just ridiculous. So it was everything from Kingdom of Heaven, Macbeth, Curris Hours ran, I looked at a bunch of old Westerns. I'd actually see a pale rider recently, Clint Eastwood one. Because the lighting is that is just absolutely insane. It's so dark. It's incredible. So we had all these references.

We put them all in the shot list. So we were very well prepared. But while we shoot in the battle sequence, we'd do a 10-hour continuous day. So that's 10 hours without your break to maximize our daylight. So you kind of eat lunches in the hand, still shooting. So that's what they do in Hungary, 10-hour continuous. And then at the end of the, yeah, it was heavy. And at the end of every day, me, Ed, first aid dean as script supervisor,

we then spend another three or four hours, shot this thing the next day and just going through everything. So it was super intensive. I mean, it was very, sorry, Ed's the director. And it was a very intensive process. And the crazy thing is, even with, I mean, there were like hundreds, not thousands, but there were hundreds and hundreds of extras at the Battle of England. And it's never quite enough, isn't it?

I don't know why, but it's one of those things. It's like the laws of physics or filmmaking budgets. So we'd still find that for the wides, we'd be doing them all the longer lenses. So you'd be able to kind of compress everything into a frame, foreground dress with a lot of people, then just push everything back, because we were looking at some Bixen Kingdom of Helen,

and they did exactly that. So you see that what looked like a wide shot, tons of action in the foreground, and you count at the extras. And like, okay, they did that with like 120, 150 guys. Obviously they had more than that, but the occasional shot would be like 150. 50 mil with 150 guys feels really busy.

So we went in that direction, and it works. I mean, the frames feel busy. And then obviously visual effects added a whole bunch, you know, cran replication added a whole bunch as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The interior daylight scenes, there's a lot of like on, especially in like I suppose the castles or whatever you want to call them, but the stone areas.

There's like obviously shafts of light coming in and then everyone's trial. you got someone sitting next to a, you know, a torch. But I was wondering, like, is that all, were you kind of, you know, adding your 18Ks and whatever through there just to keep it all managed? Or did you just kind of go with it and stick with just like interior lighting? So normally there was a couple of 18s outside the windows to show you to have some kind of, we also kind of built eyebrows outside the windows and sets. And so we kind of negating the sun that was coming through around the set.

and then we'll punch a couple of 18s through the windows as well and then I try not to have too much on the floor when I shoot drama you don't want to add too much light especially not from the camera side and my inclination is even if you'll shoot which you've done the wide you're coming for the close-ups

you've kind of established where the key light's coming from but I'll always try and wrap the key the fill light round from the key side so you'll never you know I've always got the fill coming from the key side rather than put a fill on the opposite side because again that's just something I hate

It just feels like, well, you can see key and then the fill, but like two-stop Sunday. It just doesn't look natural. It doesn't give you the quality light across the face for me. What's the wandering DP calls that the sun sandwich? When you get the sun from behind, you just put the reflector right on the opposite side. So it's just kills your contrast. Yeah. We're kind of starting to get past time here, so I want to be respectful of your time.

but I had a whole one. Yeah. Sorry, yeah. Go for, I'm actually loving this chat, but no, me too.

Well, I'll have you back on wherever you want. I'm just trying to, did I touch a Ross son? Yeah, okay, stunts, yeah.

I did want to, coming off that film because you had brought up, I hate Susie, and I was just going through your IMDB, you know, like,

because I'll just tell my girlfriend, you know, oh, I'm going to be not around for like two hours. So she was like, oh, what's this one shot? And I'm going through. And I'm like, oh,

he shot Doctor Who? and she's like, oh, me and her met because of Doctor Who, because that was the question on dating up five years ago. But then I was like, oh, he shot Billy Piper and I hear her. I hate Susan. She goes, I have a question. I was like, oh, go ahead. And she goes, is she as pretty as I think?

But he was gray, actually. I mean, yeah, it was a really interesting process because the script. So Lucy Preble co-wrote it. So Lucy Preble is one of the rights on succession. she's an amazing ride. So she was there in the process as well quite heavily involved, like there with us on the day

and do line tweets and that kind of stuff. And I mean, I don't know, I mean, I don't know, Bley personally, but you've got the sense that so much of it felt that it was coming from an autobiographical point of view. It just felt really interesting. She was completely committed. She's a great actor.

I mean, she really is. And every day, it was a tricky shoot just because we were always trying to challenge ourselves to work within the emotion of the episode and how many sheets in a way we've never shot it before. And I really enjoyed working with Anthony, the director, actually, because he's done a lot of theatre. He did a great song with Biggie Connolly a few years ago, but he'd been working theatre. And he kind of came up with ideas that put me out in my comfort zone.

And it really, really challenged me to kind of, and so as we, I guess we had to compromise on the lighting. But it worked so well in terms of the camera language or the energy for the narrative that it was quite, It's interesting being put in that position where you've got to sacrifice some of your aesthetic principles because it works better for the story. Right, right. You know, so, yeah, it was good. There's one scene in particular outside the theatre where there's a bunch of characters meet another bunch of characters. And we kind of blocked it. So they meet these two groups and then they kind of pirouette around each other in a 180.

So the camera is kind of very well-side story. Yeah, it's just doing that the whole time. And it was so hard to lie. And I remember shooting on the line. I was like, oh, this looks horrible. The light is so brilliantly back there, then horribly front of it there. And actually, when you saw it the edit, the energy was so disconcerting that it just, it works and tell you words. My uneducated ass would have been like, top light for everyone, reflect it somewhere.

That's exactly what ended up having me. Stick a light to that wall. Let's get out of here. But were you a fan of Doctor Who before you guys? out the gig? I mean, I know the show. I've got to say, you know, it's such a good, like the amount of directors I've worked with that have gone through Doctor Who.

Like, it's kind of an incredible breeding ground for rich talent, actually, like a lot of people go through it. It's the Law and Order of the UK. You know, everyone, if you live in New York, you've been on Law and Order or worked on law and order, you know? Exactly. That kind of thing. The cast of crew, again, great.

I mean, it really felt, so it shoots in South Wales. And it was kind of nice getting out of London and working with the crew in St. Wales. And it just felt like a big family. I mean, like everybody was incredibly welcoming. It was tricky because, you know, kind of having to turn things around quite quickly. But I really enjoyed it, you know, and Jody was fantastic. She was great. I thought her daughter worked with some of the team.

She was great. I mean, I thought she actually smashed it out of part. And it was quite an enjoyable experience, actually. And I guess, you know, there's quite a lot of visual. effects, so you're trying to balance. And it was interesting, actually, because when I started prepping it, you suddenly get a sense of, oh, shit, this show has a huge fan base. And it was the first time I felt a bit, a little bit like, oh, I'm slightly custodian

of this show. Don't fuck it up, you know, because there is a big, dedicate fan base, and you want to make sure you do the show and the fan base justice. And it was good, good. I'm not watched the new series, actually, but I'm really intrigued to see how they go with it so yeah the um i mean visually just you know if if that fan base is willing to put up with the uh david tenet slash ecclstein billy piper era of dr who i think you know you get a little leeway with how nice those uh those shows look now yeah so i feel like that would have been shot on

something like the f900 ht cam whatever it was back in the day something like that whereas now what when i shot we shot oh what do you shoot we shot It's got cannomorphic, but in a two-to-one aspect ratio, so there's a little bit less black above and below. Can we shoot Alexa? We shoot Venice. I don't remember. But so, you know, it's good, good kick. Yeah.

Well, I actually interviewed someone who shot an episode of that earlier, Doctor Who, and I think they said it was like HDCAM. But then I also got to interview the costume designer. Her name's Lucinda Wright. She also did The Witcher. And I was asking her about that. And she was like, yeah, the outfits, obviously their budget was dog shit. But like the budgets, the outfits were a little out there, you know, because it was the early 2000s too. So although early 2000s fashion is starting to come back for whatever reason.

But, oh, it definitely is. Yeah, yeah. Well, and also, I guess the style, like if you look, I was watching Black Hawk down the other day. And man, that is, that's a crazy look for a film. But they could have so strong that you believe it. but the turn of the turn of the century when bleach bypass

you would see films would do incredibly strong looks and then you have this first generation in digital cameras where people are trying to emulate that

film look and you cannot do it on an HD cam which you know the highlight should blow all over the place the colours

the chromos assembling is horrible so you know you can do seven or Fight Club or Black Hawk down with the highlights blow out

it looks great on film try to do that on HD cam it's new it's not going to work at course so I remember definitely trying to

to do that in college with my XL2 and then followed up by my AF 100. I still have it. I was really handing you. Did they shoot like 28 days later?

28 days later was on the XL1S and they actually because I seem to be the film historian on the XL2. The XL2's few modifications from the XL1S were because of Danny Boyle. So I think one of them

was getting a 24p mode. And then the other one was, because it already shot, that sensor was already natively 16 by 9. So if you shot 4.3, you're actually cropping the sensor and getting, you know, but that was a 720 by 480 image already,

or not even 720, what a 480 by 320 or, you know, whatever. So by shooting, when I was in college, that was a very cool. camera to have because we got to shoot in real 24 in real widescreen, which, you know, no one else could do that.

Donned it. I actually remember I was leaving, I was a film student in New York when that movie came out, and I remember going to watch it. Where do we go? But like a good, boisterous New York, like, you know, movie theaters in the UK, they're kind of, great, but it's kind of a sedate affair. In New York, everyone was just screaming and, like, whoop in. It was pretty entertaining, actually, it's very good.

Yeah, there's a few movie experience. that I think highlight how good it is to go to the movies. One of them was 28 days later for me as well. One of them was 300, really. I never saw that in cinema. Oh, dude, people were freaking out because it was just such an event, you know, and the, who shot that, Larry Fong? The whole, like, did you see their camera rig for that,

how they did all those high-ramp punchings? So, I didn't, but I worked with the guy that did same thing on, you know, the Rock Danny Jr. Sherlock. guy, rigidly. Yeah. Yep. They had a camera above or below, like phantoms, and then they are digitally, is that what they did on that?

Three cameras, yeah. Right, wow. They had like a wide type of, just turd at them. Oh, you know what? I think they had them in a 3D rig. But instead of it being offset, they were just exactly the splitter was just on top of itself so that, so maybe it was just two cameras. But that way the punch in didn't, you know, slightly adjust.

It's really interesting, isn't it? So, yeah, you just use visual effects. Yeah, exactly. You would, wouldn't you? God. Where's he going to end? Kenny, where's it going to end? What's the roof on K?

Honestly, I think eight. Because the 12K, I've talked to a few people about this, and it's like, you know, you shoot higher than you're deliverable, right? So if you're going to shoot 4K, it's nice to shoot 6K on the Venice. There's no such thing as 6K delivery. unless you're shooting for like a billboard or something, right? Or some specialty IMAX maybe. So then you've got your 8K.

Okay. But even the Blackmagic 12K, like you only get that so that you could super sample down to 4K again. And I, even if computers get to the point where they can, you know, you get quantum computing and no footage makes your computer slog. I just don't see the necessity. Because, you know, obviously going from the XL2 days to 720, you know, obviously going from the XL2 days to 720. HD that was a big jump and then or 1080 for sure 1080 to 4k big jump but we're all just we're always talking about displays right our display is going to get any bit like theaters discounting iMacs like theater screens are getting smaller actually um yeah tv screens we've certainly maxed like

people just don't physically have room to put anything bigger than like an 82 inch screen yeah I think and if also the question sorry going sorry I was just going to say if if six 8 or even 4K is more than acceptable on those screens, then unless you're trying to do the Finchirian super stabilization and reframing on every shot, I just don't see a need or a want for more Ks. I think that race is dead and team manufacturers don't care. It's a weird one, isn't it?

And also, I guess there's also a question about the fidelity of the human eye, but there comes a point at which you will not be able to, in fact, more resolution might be problematic for the way that you see things, because it might be too much. Almost like, I mean, it's a different question, but when, you know, in the 70s, they shoot stuff at 48 frames and playback at 40, or the Hobbit, you know, 40s, like HFR, whatever it was called. And people just couldn't deal with it because we're not really used to that kind of thing. And I wonder if with resolution, there would just come a point where, you know, if you're looking at your TV and the TV

looks sharper than the real world around the TV I don't know how much further down that path you want to go well we've already got like well we've already got like Planet Earth and stuff where that type of footage is great and yeah

no exactly it works there yeah but we already have it it's not like it needs to be improved on you know although I guess Avatar did I don't know if you saw Avatar the new one in 3D in theaters but again I should have actually did you say yeah okay first of all

god damn because i remember the first one coming out and we were like where's this going because it just looks so good there there were shots entire scenes in the new avatar in 3d in theaters because i don't think it's worth watching at home i think the whole point of avatars to go watch it in 3d in a theater yeah um i'm sure they'll re-release it just so he can get back on the like whatever film whatever film of his is below that avatar you'll just but um when i guess they got six more but uh it i mean photorealistic The VFX teams on that movie need to be given more than Oscars because just like you've got you've got the animated character standing next to a real person bleeding out, you know, hands touching digital character and you can't see the scene. You just can't see the seams.

But the interest, it was it was shocking how good it all looked, especially the underwater stuff. but that's just because James Cameron's an ocean nerd. But for a lot of it, probably like 65% of it, they use HFR. All the action scenes. Anytime there's movement, it kicks to 48 frames or maybe 60, but it felt like 48. And then anytime it's just like, it was it really threw me off. And I was and not because it looked like the Hobbit was very jarring in 48. but with Avatar

I wish they just stayed there because any time they kicked back to 24 for like you know two head conversations it looked it looked worse and I was like no no no we're like let's

oh wow like you wanted it to stay there yeah he I think he nailed it for that specific I don't think any other film should try this but for Avatar I think it worked perfectly you know it's the same thing with you being a filmmaker

you know if it was going to bother you if you were going to bother anyone it would bother you, so the fact that you like it, that's quite positive. Although, I remember watching the trailer and just kind of going, feeling, just felt a bit like a video game. I don't know. Yeah. No, no, no.

You're right. There is definitely that element of certain scenes. But I think it's shot, I mean, there's another conversation about fidelity. Like, I'm playing the new Star Wars game, the new Jedi Survivor. And there are some, I'm really impressed by how the cut scenes in these games, now are incredibly cinematic. Like they're shot, you can tell they're shot, their performance capture, you know. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. So the camera works all very grounded in in cinematography. The acting is obviously performance capture, so they look good and stuff. And but there's some elements of that in the Avatar film for sure, a little video gamey, but overall, leaving that experience, I was like, that's a good, that was fun. But again, I wouldn't buy it on Blu-ray. Like, there's, you know, unless it came with some six special features. I really, I think, boy.

I'd like to learn more. But, but, but, um, we've got, we've gone over time. Well, I'd love to have you back on talking about literally anything else or if you just want to come and shoot the shit again. Yeah. I just don't think. Is there anything, I mean, I do know. I really enjoy. I mean, I can actually just keep talking about movies for hours, to be honest with you.

But you have a family than business to attend to, so. Uh, well, I got two cats, I suppose. So, uh, that's, that's a thing. family. My girlfriend keeps telling you that. But I end the podcast with the same two questions. First one being, and it's, and it's this, I interview so many TV people now, but I guess you've shot a bunch of movies. But if you were to program and double feature with Seven Kings Must Die and another film, and obviously not the television show, what would that other film be? oh well

I wish I'd paid attention to I listened to your other podcast so I could have had to think about it I'm going to start putting it in the booking email because every the second question is going to be worse that's tricky what would you do at double thing with that

it can match it can it can be a it can be different you know it can I mean I feel like any answer it's going to sound incredibly pretentious

because I'll be comparing my work to you're not comparing it you're not comparing it it can contrast it can be this is just the other film you would have

in the double feature so you know what would be a really interesting counterpoint would be the Kurosau's ran we looked at that quite a lot and that's kind of set in feudal Japan

file sequences all that kind of stuff it's very different in certain ways but we looked one of the main things we took from it was

we shot so much nature for that film. There's like five shots of it made into the film. But we spent hours to shoot cloud formations. That was all because of Rann. And I remember watching RAN. They have this incredible ability. They'll be talking about a certain thing in the script. And then they cut to a shot in the cloud. It seems like a visual representation or what they'd just be talking about. And I remember like, am I imagining that or am I an acid or how have they done that? It's just absolutely genius. So it's obviously a much more elevated, but I feel like It'd be an interesting companion piece to what we did.

Or possibly the Macbeth with Michael Fasbender. But that's before. Sure. No, we'll take either of those. Second question, the much harder one. You know, a lot of podcasts, people will ask, you know, what's the best piece of advice you ever got? I don't want that.

I want to know what the worst piece of advice you ever got was. Oh, beyond. Or that you've seen given, I suppose. So broaden it out a little bit. Do you know what? I think the, right, so, when I was at New York Film Academy, we had a great teacher, actually, who's an ASC member, shot a bunch of stuff. And I feel like he gave me what is simultaneously the best and the worst advice. Amazing. You anyone. This is great. And he was like, the first rule of filmmaking is this. It's assumed credit, a sign blame. If it's good, you did it. If it's bad, he did it. And I was like, I get it. Like, you have to watch your back. but I also feel like that was such a negative way to start your film career with that advice.

That probably works at the 60s. Exactly, yeah. But I feel like that that's quite kind of bad advice. What would be bad advice? I don't know. No, that's perfect. I mean, honestly, just to piggyback on that, now I think most people would agree

that the exact opposite is true. Take the blame, assign the glory, and most people will want to work with you again. Or just at least people know. Responsibility. Take response to empty for what you have done. Yeah. Yeah, because I think most people,

something that I've noticed, although I've been told that I'm sometimes too hard on myself, and maybe I've just built this knee-jerk reaction and I need to cool it a little bit. Everybody's the same, Kenny. Like, it's the artist's mind, isn't it? Yeah. But it's always like, if something goes wrong,

I will highlight everything that I did to make it go wrong and then try to diffuse the situation. And if something goes right, I'll point out all the people who succeeded because I really don't want attention. and that's why I, you know what's funny is like, I always say like, oh, that's why I'm behind the camera but then I have a 150 episode

podcast series where I'm talking the entire time. So maybe I want a little attention. But it's a fine balance that you'll tell you right there. Like I don't really, I'm not a big fan of public speaking, but I'm kind of fine standing up in front of like 300 X's going, stand over there, guys. But yeah, but generally behind the camera is good, not in front of the camera.

In fact, I worked with an actor on a film a couple of years ago. And he'd be gotten great, actually, but he was like, so self-tape in, can you please give me some advice? How would you line me for this? So he actually went through a bunch of stuff, he bought a whole bunch of gear, and he lines himself in a very basic way, according to what we saw him, because he was like, nobody tells us how to do this, and it's line, right? And as much as you want to hope that the person seeing the tape has an imagination, they might just look at the image is flat and they don't know what they're doing. So, you know, sometimes you have to be prepared to polish something as much as you can, so they're not, you know,

it's like if you delivered self-tape, but it was in log and it hadn't been braided. That would immediately put somebody off if I have no imagination. Yeah. There's actually a great Twitter account called Uncorrected Log. And it's just this guy just goes through, uh, anytime someone tweets out a video or there's a commercial that has uncorrected log in it, he just highlights it. And I like, I like that guy.

Oh, don't have to follow that. It's quite funny. A bit harsh, but quite funny. Well, I mean, it's sometimes I think he's just looking at like kind of a decent, like, because there was one thing from like the Met Gala that he called uncorrected log. And I was like, I think that's actually. got a 709 conform on it. It's just everything is white and really brightly lit. So it looks, I mean, it's like exposed correctly, but everything's brightly lit. So it's just flat. But it's like the blacks were still black. But it's like you could only see that on like the interviewer's sleeve and like the fingernail of the actress they were talking to. And I was like, I think, I think that might just be boring. Yeah, maybe not like. But in any case, I'll let you go. But please feel free to, I'll add you on the old internet. But, uh, but, uh, but. Uh, I'll add you on the old internet. But, uh, but, uh, but. Uh, but.

Please go for you, come back on another, and we can keep shooting the shit about literally anything. It was a lot of fun. I would love to you, Kenny. Thank you for putting my waffle. I mean, hopefully you got something to cut. I'm the king of waffles. Fifteen minutes of interest, get rid of all the rest of that. Oh, that's the thing that people, I had a four-hour one before, and I did have to cut that down. But I think one to two hours this audience seems to enjoy. So I think we're at what, one and a half, 120, so we're good. We're solid. Great. Thank you. Thanks so much for the time, man. It's been a lovely chatting to you. Take care. Yeah, you too.

Later, brother. Frame and Reference is an Al-Bod production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. As this is an independently funded podcast, we rely on support from listeners like you. So if you'd like to help, you can go to buy me a coffee.com slash frame and ref pod.

We really appreciate your support. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.