Frame & Reference Podcast - 102: "Extrapolations" DP Eigil Bryld

Episode Date: July 13, 2023

Join me as I chat with Eigil Bryld, a hardworking Director of Photography, and we explore his recent projects – Extrapolations, The Machine, and No Hard Feelings, which had a very quick turnaround. Listen in as we share our thoughts on the writers' strike against studios, its difference from the COVID-19 situation, and the luxury of being able to refuse work. We also discuss how saying no has sometimes led to even better opportunities. We go on to discuss how Eigil's background in documentaries has shaped his work in cinema, influencing his naturalistic approach to cinematography. His journey from documentary filmmaker to cinematographer is truly fascinating, as is his work on films like Wisconsin Death Trip. Hear about his approach to shooting films and the importance of placing the camera perfectly to capture the dynamics of a scene. Finally, we spend a good chunk of time discussing his work with iconic director David Fincher and the lessons that came with it. Eigil shares his experience on House of Cards and the techniques he used to capture the perfect shot. We also discuss his approach to lighting, the importance of quick setup and breakdown of equipment, and the dance between the camera and the actors. All this and more in our enlightening conversation with Eigil Bryld! (0:00:15) - Busy Film Career, Appreciation for Writers (0:07:18) - The Influence of Documentaries on Filmmaking (0:19:20) - Working With David Fincher and Ambience (0:29:46) - Cinematography Techniques and Visual Style (0:43:45) - Two Cameras (0:49:16) - Cinematography and Lighting Techniques in Film (1:00:53) - Exploring Filmmaking and Mark Hamill Stories ⁠Follow F&R on all your favorite social platforms!⁠ You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 101 with Eigle Burled, the DP of Extrapolations and The Machine and No Hard Feelings. Enjoy. You've been busy as hell recently, haven't you? Well, I have been busy for the last couple of years. I mean, obviously now I'm not so busy because for obvious reasons because nothing much is happening. But, yeah, I've been busy. I've been doing, I did extrapolations, which I did, I think, November two years ago.

So it was in the pipeline for a bit because of all the special effects. and they had to shoot eight episodes then I had the machine come out but we actually shot like way back in in Serbia against in 20 but but it's set in Russia we didn't shoot in Russia so so it was actually scheduled to be released right around the the Ukraine the invasion so well so they did it and probably rightly so so so that That's been stuck in the pipeline for a little bit as well. And then I have another movie coming out actually in November. That I'm really looking forward to.

It's called The Holdovers with Alexander Payne, which is a movie set in the early 70s in a boarding school in New England, which is a brilliant, brilliant movie. it's like all these movies is but uh but uh i'm really looking forward to that one yeah and did you do no hard feelings as well yeah then i did no hard feelings which oddly enough was actually the last film i did of all the above uh movies it was the last one i did and the first one to come out i mean that was the like the craziest turnaround.

We actually just, I think I did D-I-on-it like two weeks ago. Before that, we did some reshoots. Like just before the strike was there. So like early May or late April or something. So that was, yeah, so it has been a bit full on the next couple of years. So to be honest, I don't mind sort of being at home in solidarity with the writers. Yeah. There was, I heard a joke that was kind of, it was, I think a grip posted it, but he was like, uh, something along the lines of like, oh, everyone's really going to appreciate my sacrifice when this is all over. Like, just sitting at home doing nothing. Well, the one thing I do want to say, which is, is, I mean, this is tongue in cheek, but, but all the riders, they may be on strike, but we all know they're sitting at home.

coming up with great stories and writing scripts and they're going to have a big pile of scripts at the end of what it is whereas everybody else i mean like me and the grips and electricians and whatever we can't do anything so uh so but but i encourage them to write a a fuckload of scripts so we can uh so when when it gets resolved and uh and then we can get busy again yeah because i really need it yeah well and and yeah that they're striking against working for studios, not striking against writing, you know. And like any of us, you know,

I'm sure when you wander around, you still want to take photos even if you're not shooting. True. No, no, I love writers. I'm married to a writer. She doesn't write movies, but I have a lot of writer friends. So, uh, so, uh, so, yeah, it's all good. I mean, actually it's a, I remember this feeling from back at the,

in the COVID days when, uh, when there was. no work at all but uh but but it was actually other than the fact that there was a pandemic going on it was a everybody was sort of you had to you couldn't do anything about it so you had to sort of let go and you weren't worried about oh this guy's shooting this thing or wish i got that or whatever because there wasn't anything going on so so um uh i mean yeah so i i sort of enjoyed i mean i i love the pandemic it's the best thing that happened no but um But it's a little bit the same now. So, so luckily it's the summertime.

And so, so I'm kind of, I'm happy because I'm not, I think like all freelancers. I'm not always good at, you know, saying no. I preach saying no. But I'm happy with everything I've done. But sometimes, you know, it's hard for me to say no. I'm currently in that situation. It started. And I'm so used to just saying yes to everything because I've never had my schedule

pile up and then starting at the beginning of February I was like towards like the end of February I was like wow there's a lot going on and then you know win an extra month and I was like shit I'm like not getting good sleep and then you know April rolls around and like I should have said no to some things it's just been compounded but it is everyone keeps going oh it's nice you're working then I'm like yeah but I would like to read or something at some point do something else exactly I mean that there has to be more to life in the and also i mean sometimes in the past when i've said no to things other things have happened and i've been really happy with that so so it's but uh but uh yeah who knows how it's all

wired yeah certainly a luxury to be able to say no to things but it is it's when you get i was talking to another dp about this where it's kind of like you work really hard doing like everyone's jobs and really you know chicken with your head cut off kind of thing and then when you finally get to a certain level of production, everyone does those jobs for you. So now it's like easier. Like you work your way towards harder and harder jobs and then suddenly out of nowhere, everything's easier because other people are handling it and you get to focus on your one thing. True.

Yeah. No, that's very true. But I got to say, I mean, even, I mean, I'm 50 something now and I've been added since I was early 20s at least. But every time I leave a job, I'm still scared of thinking I'll never work again. and maybe just disaster and I would be blacklisted and I mean a lot of people have it like that but but I think that feeds into the whole thing then you sort of you have you you have a script or whatever you have something and you think oh maybe I should do it you know maybe I'll just squeeze one more in there it's like a like the bang robber syndrome you know just the last the last

heist and then all would be well yeah then off to the beach you uh you started off as a documentary guy, right? I started, I really, I wanted to do documentaries when I, when I was in my teens, I was really into lots of sort of both sort of travel documentary in the, and, but also Aaron Morris, which was a little bit later, but like the thin blue line was a real revelation for me in the way that it mixes, sort of a documentary story, but in a super stylized way. always i mean it sort of really showed in a very beautiful and smart way how documentary isn't really reality documentary is a it's a style of filmmaking and and obviously it's it's subjective and

and but it's a and i mean uh i think that that yeah that that was a really breakthrough in in my mind in a way because i was very sort of uh i was very i wanted to sort of save the world and I wanted to travel around and show all the hardships and whatever. And I wasn't that sort of interested in, I didn't really understand the cinema because I'm from a family of academics. So I would watch movies, but I just had no idea how they were made or were, and it seemed like such an alien world or whatever. And I thought it was a little sort of, it was just stuff people made up in a way.

I was sort of puritan thinking, oh, documentary is the sort of purestant. pure form and it's sort of a, but then I went to film school in, I got into a film college in Wales, Newport Wales when I was 18. It was kind of by accident that I stumbled across it and partly I went there because they had a documentary photography course as well that one of my friends was attending and it was a magnum photographer called David Hearn. He ran his workshop and And the college was organized so you could, you know, you could do their classes or you could do film and video production. You could sort of move around. And so I was still really into that.

But then there was a brilliant cinema in the chapter of cinema in Cardiff, where I was staying, which is very close by. Doctor. And I started watching all the, you know it? No, but I know that they shoot Doctor Who out there. Oh, exactly. But, but then I started watching. all these sort of weird. It was like Super Art House.

I like it a lot, David Cronenberg and Kislovsky and all of this stuff that really, and then I started, I'm saying, oh, people, you know, this is, you know, this is affecting me. This is as true as any documentary. And then I started sort of getting more into that. But I still, I mean, also I love to travel and, and I do. And I did get to make some more traditional documentaries, but also the one that sort of got me going, which was a dream hunt true, was a documentary in a quotation marks.

It was called Wisconsin Death Trip, which I did with director James Marsh, which was like a super low budget documentary that we did all over Wisconsin. And we did all these reenactments. It's based on a book that sort of took newspaper cuttings from the turn of the 19th century and these beautiful photographs that were shot around the Black River Falls. And they sort of put the, and all those big economic crisis and people were sort of committing suicide by eating cigar butts and drowning their kids and taking cocaine. yeah it was mayhem but uh so so we sort of it did a sort of brought some of those photos back to

lives and uh and uh so it wasn't really a documentary but there was a documentary element to it as well so uh but but that was i mean it was very ambitious incredibly low budget uh we did it over four seasons and uh but that was such a i mean that was my one of my sort of really happy, happy, happy moments because we were so low budget that we had to make everything up literally on like with duct tape and we had a crew of two, we had a gaff on a grip and the grip was the stuntman as well. And, yeah, and we had a producer and that was basically it, but people were so helpful to us. They would, you know, travel halfway across Wisconsin just to stay in the snow and get shot and then put their clothes back on and try.

back over amazing yeah because you're uh that makes sense that you kind of like got formed by that at least from what I can see I I uh I rewatched Wizard of Lies the other day and that similar kind of maybe thought not a documentary but a but a dramatized reality but everything in your work seems so natural in a way that is still I hate the word cinematic but still cinematic but still cinematic but but very natural. And I was wondering, does that come from, is that informed in any way by, you know, the doc influence? Or did you kind of happen upon that? Or is that just like something that you enjoyed and kind of folded into your own work? No, I think 100%. I mean,

I think one of the things you sort of have to learn in documentary is obviously if you shoot something that's happening, then you only get one shot at it. So you better, you know, put the camera, you know, put yourself with the camera in the right place in the room so you can basically sort of a show the dynamic or have the effect you want, but obviously, you know, you have to be sort of practical about it. So I've always been very sort of, sort of puritan. I don't, I don't love overcoverage. I'm really sort of striving for sort of, sort of simplicity and, and sort of, Because I have this idea that in order to create something complex, you have to sort of start with the symbol and you have to build it from simple. You can't start.

If you start with chaos, it's very hard to sort of decipher that and turn it into and give us any sort of shape. So I think definitely that's sort of part of it could also be that I'm from Scandinavia and sort of Scandinavia design is a lot about functionality. And things has to be sort of beautiful and elegant, but at the same time, it really has to sort of, there's no sort of fluff or whatever. It's all, it's sort of defined in a way. But Wizard of Lies, I mean, a lot of that is Barry Levinson as well. Because, I mean, Barry Levinson, I mean, he's a true anarchist.

And he's very playful. And he kind of, I mean, we did a lot of. stuff in a Wizard of Lives where we didn't rehearse and like there's a big scene when De Niro Madoe comes into this big ballroom and he meets all these different people and we didn't rehearse so we just set up a bunch of cameras and then we sort of thought well if we put the chairs in this sort of way then he's probably going to go this way and the cameras over there so he's probably going to be attracted to the cameras interesting and and because Because Barry doesn't like to sort of, he doesn't go on tech scouts either.

He likes to keep a sort of lively and playful. He doesn't ever want to do to say move twice. He just wants to get into it, and then he sort of wants to hold the attention. So you sort of have to have that a little bit, a documentary sensibility. But then obviously you sort of, you shoot it, you set it up as fiction, and then you execute a sort of documentary style which I find

very sort of inspiring because also I can doubt myself very easily if I think too much about it then so I've got to have a sort of element of I mean I try and do that in

like when I did deep water with Adrian Line we a lot of that was sort of designed. I had a really good first AD as well. Doc Torres, who worked with a couple of times. And he's very aware of sort of weather and the sun and how it moves. And we were shooting that whole house, a little bit like a stage as well. So we had to be very sort of focused on, you know, okay, can shoot here in the morning. If the light isn't right, then we can go and shoot the scene in the bedroom. And it was a chamber piece. So it made it sort of a lot easier. in that sense but uh but because i mean at the end of the day as well there's only

there's only like if you shoot outside there's only so much you can do on uh right in terms of control you sort of have to have it planned out and and unless you want to just sort of turn everything into a tent and then and then and they all have soft light then which i don't particularly like uh then yeah you have to uh you have to sort of work with the tools you have and what you're given in a way or what you can get and then and then obviously

augment from there I mean one of the most beautiful things now I'm rambling but one of the most beautiful movies was really inspiring to me was a very obvious one but Days of Heaven sure we was obviously done with no lights at all I mean apparently they spend most time turning the lights off because the gaffers were still set up lights

and they would have to but but i think that's i mean to to create that sort of quality something that uh that uh that uh yeah it's so unique and beautiful um and impossible to do in this day and age do you kind of have like a go-to especially um the interview i did uh yesterday we talked about this but um do you do you kind of have like a go-to system for shaping available light? Are you just kind of like a big negative feel guy a little bit of bounce, or do you kind of have maybe a trick you've learned

from the past couple more naturalist films like that? I mean, I think the most important thing is obviously picking a good location. And then I'm not super happy about sort of softening the lights because I think it very easily because you can soften the background and then you sort of create this. And the other, I mean,

and I also like to move the camera. So I don't like too big, you know, too much. So, so, so I try and sort of, yeah, use some, shoot the white shots at the right time of day, obviously. And then when you move in, then try and shape it with some negative and, and, I mean, on the holdovers, we had a big, which unfortunately is the first scene of the movie. And there's a big scene, a long dialogue scene, and it's comedy. So obviously there's a lot of different takes or whatever. And we picked the location. It took a long time to find this location.

And it was perfect. It was facing north. So the house would always be backlit. I mean, it would have had its challenges as well. But we lost it due to some neighbors. like literally the Friday before and had to fall back in this other house that was facing east was a real nightmare and you're going to shoot there for a full day and you're basically going to get blasted, you're going to get sidelighted, you're going to be in shadow and

I mean the scene works and all of that but it's not my proudest moment I was kicking myself and and I really I mean I had to use the fusion. I had to do all this, you know, a lot of grading. And it was also shot late in the year and it was a summer movie and the sun starts setting. And that was a real nightmare. But luckily, luckily the scene is funny. So I hope I say, I serve the movie.

Yeah. You got to kind of roll with the punches in that regard. Exactly. You had mentioned that, not to jump back too far, But you had mentioned in Wizard of Lies that, you know, is very dark style, but still, you know, kind of natural looking. How did that experience compare to House of Cards, which I assume was very controlled? House of Cards, yeah, was super controlled. I mean, it was, it was, everything was shot two cameras.

The rule was no steady came, no handheld. And, and, I mean, it was working with Finchia, I mean, because I did the first two episodes with him, and he was obviously there after the whole, the whole first season, he was sort of lurking in the shadows. Of which there are a minute. The man loves the shadow. Exactly. And, and, I mean, he used to.

I think we had very, he's kind of easy to work with in the, in the, in the sense that, that he doesn't, there's not bullshit with him. He knows every department. He knows everything. He was done. But his production designer helped design. So everything was very meticulous and sets we built. We were like, we created these ceilings with, with sort of, where we had sort of, where we could do soft ambient from above, but not just sort of overall. but we could turn on and off in sections and this was before LED so so this was so we did a lot of tests you know how to get a good quality or light you know we tried keynote flows we tried tongues and gel tongues then we also wanted to be able to create to change the color temperatures so we were like gel in different ways or whatever and and ultimate we ended up doing

it with this sort of patches of with the fluorescent tubes because then we could do a mix of sort of like three tungsten tubes and one blue tube or whatever also they obviously don't emit a lot of light and the and we're shooting there a lot so so i mean the producer are very happy with it that way because even just the air conditioning if we'd shot with tungsten lights i mean that that would have cost like 10 grand a day or something crazy just to cool the place that in diesel. But so it was very sort of thorough and the sort of the template in terms of lenses. I mean, we used pretty much always the 35, you know, we would do two shots. We would do like a pretty wide, a very limited sort of range of a focal length.

and very, and he's a minimalist, I mean, if anything, I mean, he had this rule, one thing we spent a lot of time doing was, was figuring out how to sort of condense our equipment as much as possible. Because his, the theory was, you know, all the camera equipment and the dollies, both dollies, have to fit into a sprint van. And the sprint van has to be able to park right outside the location and then basically everything has to be so you just have to open and take it and you know we have the base plate on we had customized all the cases all the accessories were sitting on we didn't put in individual boxes so there was like a 15 minute room you have to be able to roll in put the camera on and then shoot in 15 minutes

and we would pick the locations where there would be some sort of ambient light and the and And that was sort of the Sometimes obviously we modified it Like we were shooting the DC Metro Yeah And which is I mean we're drawn down I think the whole thing is lit with two single

Kino Flow tubes But what did take a lot of time was the Gaffer had to go there Like five or six times So he would go down there with a color meter He would do a reading We would have them change all the bulbs but they still had different color temperatures.

So he had to go back there, color meter him, gel him, take a photo, come back. And then, I mean, that went on forever. But so it's a good example of something that sort of, on the day, it didn't really take a lot. But the preparation had been pretty immense and involved, both the, what is called out, the FTA or whatever, and the electricians and unions.

I mean, it was a bit of an undertaking, but, but, yeah, and so that, that was sort of the shape of, of, of, of working with him, that sort of methodology and, and he's not afraid of, of, of the, of, of the dark, obviously. and but I don't think it's ever sort of you always sort of see what what you need to see it's never like

it's never like scary because you can't see anything or whatever it's sort of unless it's like you know unless that's a point but but I mean I learn so much from doing that

and also obviously trying to sort of implement all of those ideas for the next. I did the first 11 episodes, so with lots of different directors and sensibilities. And I mean, and that was the real challenge because everybody knows that Cinscher could do, I mean, he could do the sound, he could do, you know, he could like this everything. So the real test is when he's not there, is it, you know, is it going to look completely different?

and and uh and but i i think the his idea was he wanted one person to shoot the whole thing which was grueling because you have to prep and shoot and i mean and we shot like like for real crazy hours um but he had this uh what he's his he called it photo a photon mission i think or whatever so he wanted one person to to sort of carry through all the way so he didn't want obviously we had more time to do episode one and two but but but he wanted the same sort of he wanted the whole thing to play as one movie because you kind of because that was also obviously the revolutionary thing was that they dumped the whole season right and the idea was you can watch it from episode one through 13 or whatever that was one of the first

ones that netflix did like that huh it was totally the first one um and uh right i for me about that and and and it really informed everything so so so so and and that's why it had to play in in that sense as one piece and and uh i mean i think everybody should do that because i think it's uh i hate that uh you know waiting for sunday or whatever or all that nonsense i mean that's uh that's from another era right yeah the that's so great i forgot how instrumental house of cards was in like launching the netflix model like their current model um so congrats on that i mean i showed up old shares back then but uh but i didn't i had inside of the knowledge and and and that's why i have to work so hard now still right could have just been you

could have been on the beach what uh i am i am actually now that you brought up some things that i was thinking about because like um i guess there's like three questions about this show now that i think about it that ambience you're talking about i saw i think it was a behind the scenes photo of the social network and i'm wondering if this is what you're talking about for the ambience did the sets have a basically uh instead of a ceiling just a thing a diffusion that you were putting light into yeah it had one big big some diffusion uh but but but not right away up to the wall so so so so there was sort of a softened all the way around just so we didn't get too much contamination on the walls.

And then the grips did like these they actually did negative positive so we did white boxes basically I think there were maybe like three feet by three feet. So the whole so above the grid there was sort of all these

sort of almost sort of shafts and then we had to light up another sort of probably six feet or whatever so it was like super soft but but we could always keep it

we could sort of turn it off you know in the corner or we could keep it I mean most of the time we would keep it sort of lit behind people and just give them a little bit of sort of scowal sort of definition

and that was because it was almost like like that sort of ambience were sort of it was called it, it was like the shadow light in a way. It was just sort of just registering

and just giving almost this little bit sort of sinister sort of golden willis sort of type light but at way lower intensity and then the key line would usually be motivated from practicals or windows

or just be sort of a little bit of shape in there but it i think the beauty of it it sort of worked with the camera style as well because it really you had to sort of kind of focus you know you could always see the eyes but but you really had to sort of uh open your eyes and lean in a little bit and be like you know what's really going on here and it's the same thing with the camera because we moved the camera almost like sort of robotically. We wouldn't follow the actors. It would be like, okay, the camera starts moving,

and then it stops, and it had to work then with the actors, sort of timing-wise. And that was sort of the dance between the camera and the actors. And then it would be very still, so you would almost like frozen. So if somebody just moved their finger, you really notice it because there wasn't anything else moving. Right. So it's the same sort of hypnotic sort of feeling where it kind of sucks you in,

which I think is what he does so well and so masterfully. And also in terms of continuity, that's why he likes to use multiple cameras, because it always feels like real time. It's like, you know, sometimes you see scenes and it's like, you know, it's not a hundred percent real time. It's like, oh, they skipped a little bit or whatever. It doesn't really matter.

It's like here and there, and somebody said this and that. But I think in all his work, it really feels like if a scene is one minute, that there was the real one minute where it happened. So he's like incredibly conscientious about even the tiniest thing in the background. And that's how he used VFX as well. I mean, to a great degree is, is, I mean, everything he does is so is packed with the, with VFX, but, but, but, but, but, but, but it's like little things that that, that, that, that, that, that, that keeps that, um, that sort of, yeah, sort of catches the sort of the moment by the throat and the, and, and doesn't let go. Yeah. That, that, that hyper continuity is something I've definitely tried to start being conscious of my

but it's certainly hard. Plus, I've, I've heard he like, you know, you can use the same techniques to, I wouldn't necessarily call it VFX, but like, you know, getting rid of maybe a light stand or being, having the boom pole operator just be able to sit right here and you're like, yeah, we'll cut that out. Like, you're good. A hundred percent. I mean, I mean, they ended up not to, I mean, in the later seasons, they, they wouldn't even like, because he would stabilize everything. He doesn't care about shaking. He's, uh, you know, he can stabilize. We would just overshoot everything anyway. So We would, you know, shoot the whole ship and the image we were looking for, which cropped,

but it meant we could always sort of re-adjusted a little bit. And the framing just, I mean, I went through quite a few. I operated with Charlie Libby on the first two seasons as well, because I love to operate. Best job on set? There is the best job. And said, and you're right in the middle of it. So if something, you know, you always know. what's going on.

You're not stuck behind the money or somewhere and something happens and you're like, the fuck's going on. But when he wasn't directing, then I thought, well, I have to sort of be Fincher here and sort of

know what the other camera is doing as well because it really has to... I mean, we did a lot, with Fincher we did all this crazy thing. We would shoot it like wide open and it would be like someone was shooting a trailer park and this guy had to open the door and step in and it was like depth of field is like it like nothing and and uh had a really good focus puller boot shelton uh but every time i mean like a lot of the takes it was out but finchie would always be you know quarter inch deeper you know half shallow or whatever and it was basically there's no way you could you know scientifically sort of uh uh do it i I mean, you basically just had to keep going until you got it enough times and the performance and everything. But I think we shot a little more, a little less wide open when we need less because they didn't want to be the crazy person torturing the director and saying, you know, we need 10 more shots.

But what we created all these, I mean, okay, yeah, I go rambling again. me, Gary J. eventually came in, who was, I mean, the most amazing operator. He did his work with Michael Mann and he did, I mean, he's done all this amazing stuff. And we worked out these really sort of more, more crazy rules because it was, because doing something like that, it felt like, like you're up. So almost at war, whatever. Like, because we fought so hard for us. So I remember when Carl Franklin came in and we were setting up this scene and it's someone bound to go and two people in a bed.

One goes to the bedroom or whatever. And it was like, oh, so we could pan across and we were just looking at him. Like crazy people, like us shot eyes and we don't pan on this show. And like, so the rule was when we did everything with the Dolly would do everything. So when we track in, you know, it would boom up or whatever. And so basically, Gary would fold his arms and then he would be ready. And then so we didn't, we didn't boom, or we didn't pan or tilt like almost at all, I think. But he was like looking at us and thinking, fuck, I mean, what other crazy rules you guys have?

Are they allowed to say their lines? Yeah. But we kind of worked it out in the end. But Gary sadly passed away. I mean, he also did. I mean, yeah, he was an incredible guy. And he actually ended up doing the whole, all the seasons. And I think he really sort of kept it together.

And, yeah, he was, unbism. Yeah, sorry to hear that. You know, you had mentioned, you know, about like the DC Metro, how it was, you just kind of went in there and did some color metering and set up a few tubes. But what's the key then to getting that look? Is that a lot of D.I. that's kind of bringing that together? Or is there something kind of more specific that you have to do to be able to work so efficiently and still get, you know, that specific look? I mean, we did a lot of testing. I mean, we tested a lot of lenses and whatever. And we ended up using master primes and then, but we didn't actually have a DIT on that show.

So, and Finchers, and this was a bit of revelation, because it was obviously shot on red, and his sort of methodology, which was always, if you can see it on the monitor, you can get it, you know. So whatever happened, even if the monitor is said weirdly, well, that's just your grading on top of everything. So what you see is what you get. So I would kind of, I would light off the monitor and then, and then, I mean, I think most of the sort of, there was a lot of grading involved at the end, but I think more to sort of keep a sort of consistency. See, I think, I mean, I didn't actually do it because I was shooting at the same time and Fincher did it remotely, so he would, but it's not far from what we actually, what we shot as well.

And it was the first location we scouted. I remember, I mean, I was really nervous. We came down there and obviously we'd been in prep or whatever, and we were talking about, They were going to sit next to each other. And then, and I was like, because I just, I wasn't quite fully understanding. So I said, are they back to back, like classic sort of spy, pretty spy, whatever? And, and, and, and Fincher looked at me. And then, and he was like, I can't remember what he said or whatever.

But then, but then afterwards, the producer Melfrey said to me, you just saved him a shot there. Because he would have had to turn around or whatever, you know, I think that was the only time I sort of, to earn your paycheck. Yeah, I think. No, the good thing about him is that he doesn't ever, you know, he doesn't play games and all. He's all about the project and it's all give and take. And if somebody has a good idea, then he's going to run with him, run with it.

He's so well prepared and like, and he's so hardworking that he's usually going to be like way ahead of everybody else. else. So you really have to sort of have to be laser focused to get to come up with something that isn't just, you know, like a random idea or whatever, which in all honesty, this was obviously for me, but it was a good random idea. But other than that, so we knew all the share, all the capital positions. We sort of drawn it up. We could sneak. He really liked. to get the two he likes the vertical tubes i mean he really got me on that uh got me into that that as well it was like vertical like asteras basically yeah basically all time this was in the in the keno flow days so so we would we would do like uh like a really gel down like a lot we would get it in as a as a as a lineup basically and and it's one of the things that you really uh that we talked a

lot about and and I think it was um uh it was um god I'm I'm terrible now but but um what's the name of the DP that there's always that they used to do Kronenworth oh Kronom went I interviewed him you did yeah but but but I mean he's amazing but but he's that obviously was was also a DP that that sent you knew and he'd been yeah, Jordan, exactly, and he was the one who's gotten him on to this, you know, remember the liner, and so, so, uh, so I think by line, you mean like scratch light? Yeah, so it's just a very, very faint sort of outline.

It has to be super faint because otherwise it looks like you've been doing blue screen or whatever. Right. But, um, but, um, yeah, whenever you're still light, so it was basically very often, it was like, if we get that line answer, we get separation. and then we just get enough light ends, you know, flexing in the eyes, then that's kind of it. That work, it's fascinating to hear how, because a question I ask of a lot of DPs is like, especially the ones that work in television is like, how are you able to work so efficiently and still maintain high quality results? And it's fascinating to hear all the different methods and, but heavy pre-production does seem to be one of the larger answers, no matter with your lighting.

No, yeah, 100%. I mean, but then the trouble came when, because then I would be shooting like literally, I mean, sometimes one director, particularly we would shoot like 15, 17 hour days, and then, so there was very limited time to prep the next episodes. And so that made it. But I think the key on the, because I actually,

because one of the things I think that Fincher was really worried about going into uh i think he felt there's a lot of eyes on him because obviously he's known for doing a lot of takes uh you know uh he told me on in the beginning of uh of a social network he did 99 takes but he would have done more but he just didn't want to get known in mr 100 right but but but it's like how's fincher going to shoot you know on a tv schedule with so many takes but but the key was really the use of of two cameras and and even on the shows after, or the episodes after, I was like,

very adamanty, we would always, always, unless it was an insert, we would always use two cameras and quite a little. They were stacked, right? Well, it was stacked for sort of coverage, but even in wide shots, we, you know, the other mat box would always be in the edge of the other camera because we would do like elaborate tracking shots

with two cameras. And we would always shoot the scene from the beginning to the end. We didn't sort of do, maybe we did pickups or whatever, but we didn't shoot like this part of the scene and then this part of the scene. We would shoot sort of as much as possible. So it took, I always took quite a bit of time to set it up, but then when we shot it, we covered so much ground

and things sort of fell into place. Also, I mean, I gotta say, I mean, the cast was, I mean, Kevin Spacey, I mean, in terms of sort of technical ability, and I mean, he's, sure, it's obviously a great, he is a great actor, but, but he's super technical as well, and he'll make anything work. And very often, I mean, this is, maybe this goes back to what we started talking about with a documentary, but I remember we're doing one scene when, when, when, when he's. He's basically getting a Rousseau drunk in the car so you can get him. And we were like, oh, it's just a big scene. You know, it's a turning point in the whole season or whatever. And so we play. We've got to spend a whole day here.

We're going to, you know, shoot two cameras here, two cameras there, two cameras there. You know, we had this huge big plan. But then we set it up on a green screen. But actually with LEDs, this was the first time I used, sort of moving LEDs. And then we set the two cameras up, sort of facing Kevin first. But Russo sort of turned away, obviously also because the camera was there. And we sort of, and we did a bunch of takes and those two setups. And it's kind of felt like whatever we do now is just going to be weak and it's not going to be.

And so, so, so, so that was it, basically. And we were like, we talked to Kevin and Kevin was, I mean, we were working gruebling hours. I keep saying that we really did. And he was like, you know, of course we have it. So obviously where you put the camera sort of shapes things as well, and it makes it fall into place. And that's sort of the puritan thing in a way is that often sight on set with, not fight with the first eighties or whatever but there's all these methodologies oh let's do something easy to get the day going and it looks like you know got off the bat 20 minutes in or

whatever and or or you know let's do something you know just to random and I'm also I'm always like we got to do you know the best shot you know the most obvious and strongest angle first because everything is automatically going to shape around you know around that setup and it's going to fall into place and all of a sudden more likely than now we're going to realize oh we actually just need a couple of little pieces here and oh maybe it's fun if we do this or you know or let's uh but um i think that's important

usually about there is times obviously like where you have to start in that i mean uh on close off to perform performance reasons or whatever, they could be all sorts of things, but whenever that happens, I think it may be good for the performance, but in terms of the sort of cinematic shape of the scene, it's not really, it's a, you know, you could obviously make it work, but, but, but it's not as, as desirable unless you work, you know, fully from storyboards where you storyboard everything, um, which, uh, which I know a lot of people do, but, but, I know, I know, yeah, no, try that once, but it scares me a little bit. Sure. You know, I, uh, I interviewed Matthew Jensen a couple days ago, um, and I actually watched your

episode of, uh, extrapolations and then started talking to him about. He's like, I shot one and two. And I was like, I fucked up and, uh, meant to talk to Eigle. Uh, but, um, you know, the, again that that show looks so natural and pretty and it's a brutal episode um like emotionally uh and really well done there but um what were kind of you know

house cards wasn't super long ago but it was you know what eight years now something like that what uh what have you learned and what has changed um up until now you know uh in the execution of doing extrapolations did you carry any of those lessons over are you like a complete different person now? No, well, I mean, no, 100%. I mean, I think how's the car has completely changed my sort of also, I mean, changed me in so many different ways, also in terms of confidence and sort of the sort of being better at all the different levels of lighting that you can sort of have all that shaping and, you know, within one stop just at the toe at the very darkest end,

but then you can have another shape, you know, in the midtones and you're going to have another shape in the highlights and that. which obviously can become a very complex and time consuming and it's not over. I mean, it is actually a lot easier or not easier, but it's less involved nowadays because you, because of LAD technology basically because it's so consumer friendly. But I've, so, so I mean, I carried that with me in everything I've done, even if it's If it's something that looks completely different, you know, has a different tonality. But I think for oceans, exactly, I mean, yeah, that was very different.

That's a very different. But I always try to, because I don't want to be complacent. So always try and, you know, do as many different things as possible, which, which, but, but I think you learn lessons from, from every thing, you know, you know, there's the Barry Levinson playfulness, then there's sort of the, the sort of mad scientist, David Fincher, there's a, there's, there's, there's, there's so many different sort of, uh, approaches and, and, and they all have the sort of, they're all valid and with extrapolations, I knew

Scott, because we, we've done, um, we did the report, um, great film, love that movie. Well, it's a great, which was, there was, one of the movies where we had to start in close, because we, I think we shot the whole movie in 21 days. So we had to. I was insane. It was super low budget.

So the idea was we're going to start with the coverage and then we're going to work our way back out. And then when it's like, oh, time's up, then we're going to have to move on and go to the next scene or the next location or whatever. It was a... And that's not a short film either. That's a fast clip.

I mean, yeah, it was a, it was brutal. It was brewroom. I mean, but the cast, they don't really said, you know, it's not like we had to do a lot of takes or whatever. It's not like we had to, but, but it was with a first AD, the, uh, Alex Finch, who I worked with a lot and he's, he's, he's also a great first AD and very sort of passionate and devoted to and knowledgeable and that. So, uh, So, and then, but way back, like in a, I did another movie which got his first movie called the Koo, a 239, I think it is, which was based in plutonium, which is, that we shot in Romania, set in Russia, shot in Romania, with Oscar Isaac and Patty Consentine, which is, this is a good film. So we've known it for a long time, and he'd been, I think this was the third episode that we were shooting. So he'd been in this, like, the world that Matt Jensen had also been in with like super, like full on sci-fi sort of, and a lot of, you know, VFX, left, right and center. But we both sort of knew this is a different one in a way. It's much more internal.

And so we came up with this idea. There was sort of the reference was the Rosetta by the Den brothers, which is a Belgian film, which is, it's all done handheld, and it basically just follows this girl around wherever she goes. So everything is essentially either it's like, it's either as a point of view or it's a close up or it's an over the shoulder. I mean, that's kind of it. Everything is sort of experienced

from within that. So that was the first sort of thing we thought, okay, that's the way, that's the rule. And also Scott is very structured and obviously he has a great imagination and

everything, but he likes sort of darkness in a way. So that's how, we sort of structured everything and also how we tried to block the scenes and it sounds easy like oh you just do that but but obviously means you have to block scenes in a certain way you have to make sure your locations can can sort of accommodate that and then and then i think in terms of of the lighting i mean the episode is is set in in london which sort of is is obviously it's in the

future and it's hot but it's still humid and it's sort of down I thought you know there's not a lot of electricity so we did a lot of sort of where the light would chase people so you walk in and the light would turn on and then when you leave it would turn off sort of sort of energy saving and then and then for for uh for uh what's it was his uh what's his name again now to make So it's a Ezra. Ezra. Yeah, yeah.

Shit. It was right there. Ezra. Esra. But we did a lot of sort of very sort of almost low contrast lighting because I was because he was in a way sort of almost dissolving. And, you know, obviously his mind is is vanishing.

So it's a little bit, it was like a ghost story or he's not sort of very clearly defined. it's almost like, you know, it's all in the shades of grays and the, and then in certain scenes, like when he's, it's a little more defined, when he's with, what's my name, his, his, his, his, he's, he's, he's, he's, he's, he, he's, one of his clients, and he's a little more defined, but, but, but, but it was sort of a very obvious way of, of showing him sort of, yeah, turning into dust in a way. Yeah, it's a very affecting episode. I mean, I was very, I mean, I read all the episodes and I was doing, I just done, I think I'd been on service, shooting the machine or whatever, but I was very happy that, that we got to do, to do that one.

It was really, and it was also a relief for Scott because he'd been in this sort of VFX and all of a sudden it became more playful and with the handheld and more improvised as well. And we had some VFX stuff that we had to sort of help along. But I mean, nowadays, they can make everything work. I mean, it's like they always say, you know, don't move the camera and then you. you sort of wither away and at the end you just you know run around shoot a handheld and they make it work so yeah well yeah with uh with ezra's apartment obviously it's pretty barren and sparse but the uh the lighting and the texture in uh the love interest not lola but the other one uh her apartment is beautiful i mean production design really knocked it out of the park with her apartment but uh if i'm

remembering correctly there's like a giant window i guess but it's all diffuse so you got this really nice automatic key on everything, which is really pretty. I mean, I was, we were shooting there in the beginning, and I was so happy. It was one of the first, it was a location, actually, down in, in, in, uh, in, uh, in, where in Brooklyn and, uh, that's a real location, it's a real location. Oh, wow. But, but, uh, and it kind of, it was a, it very much had the same sort of vibe. like the guy who lives there is basically like an artist who lives there and has some stuff

and and obviously they changed some stuff as well and and and it was a I mean that that was the same thing it was on the fifth floor whatever so we saw quite high but but but the windows were dirty and old it was old glass so they were naturally diffused and and we could just at night we could just glow it a little bit from the street and then during the day we just had to be mindful because it was a corner that, you know, when we shot and didn't shoot. But, I mean, there was the same thing again. I mean, very, very minimal lighting. And all about when you shoot and obviously where you put the camera,

which obviously also means that your director have to be on board because it, you know, like with anything, if you all of a sudden turn around and it could look like, a completely different movie and and and we i mean we didn't have a lot of days i mean this was obviously television as well so so i guess we had to do six minutes a day or something crazy and i can remember if we had 10 days or i mean 10 or 12 or whatever but i mean that seems to be what would you get given nowadays um yeah this is not a lot did you shoot are you dp as well Yeah. Oh, I should have mentioned that. I, uh, I am also a DP. Right now, I'm mostly doing

corporate stuff, especially, um, yeah, I don't get, uh, too many, um, narrative gigs. I'm, I'm, I'm working towards that, but for, for the longest time, it was corporate stuff, music videos, you know, every once in a while, you get a, just document. And I said, yeah, and it's a great, like, especially the corporate stuff, it's a great training ground for like, really good, you know, basic you know lighting a face you know an interview is and and making that more um you know the client that i'm thinking of right now that is apparently his entire company because it's like a massive company they're always like how the fuck did you do that why does it look like a movie and i'm like good we're we're getting there we're getting you know um i was the second unit dp uh on um

the last bruce willis film so that was a step in the right direction but i never met bruce i worked with jack kilmer the whole time who's really cool really like jack Um, I did, I know, uh, we're kind of coming up on time, but we'll have to have you back on because you got five other projects I want to talk about, but, uh, it's fun. I was like, uh, I was saying to my son, because we're going to go and get pizzas and I was saying to my son, because we're going to take an hour, but, uh, but, uh, but you, uh, you got me fired up with the, uh, you let me ramble. Maybe you regret it now, but, no, no, trust me. So here's the, the conceit about this podcast. Is it. Um, it was a pandemic project I started three years ago because I wanted to be really make sure of my skills when time came to go shoot again you know so I like was investing a lot in education and stuff and I was like oh I write for this website I could use their name to like get good interviews and I did a test episode with my neighbor who's a this dude named Johnny Durango very good DP and a bunch of PR companies were just like yeah we'd like to get

our DP on your show and so it's really just been me you know the conceit is that I'll ask questions like oh some people would like no it's like I just want to know but I will say that this this might be

you don't have to answer this but because you just shot the machine I would be remiss if I didn't ask if you had any good Mark Hamill stories Mark Hamill stories Mark Hamill Oh, okay.

I mean, he's fantastic. I mean, I'm sure I have some, but we were shooting in Serbia, and it was a pretty crazy shoot as well. I mean, Bird likes to party and, and, and, and he's obviously, I mean, he has so much passion and he's such full of so full of energy or whatever and but but but but the dynamic between the two because it it uh he really uh mark has this way of sort of bringing bringing him down to earth a little bit which this is a very uh great dynamic but uh but i have to think about it because i don't want to embarrass anybody well yeah embarrassing stuff going on in in when in serbia you know

sure but well we'll we'll have you think about that and then when you come back we can chat about that and also once I get to see the film because it's at the time of this recording it's not out yet comes out okay in July it's going on July I think yeah no the machine is out now no hard oh is it shit okay feelings yeah but but but we should also talk about you know a fun one to look forward to is the whole over us because yeah it's it's not only set in the in in and 1970 or 71 but we wanted it not to be like window dressing we wanted to actually make it look like it was actually made and then we someone found it and you know it's a cool film from and and that goes to even sort of it's in mono you know sound is in mono there's a you know the loudest noise a gunshot can only be i can remember it's by like 32 decibel or whatever so so we were really really obviously we had to cheat

to a certain degree to get that effect but but but but but but it was very challenging in the way that it wasn't like you know are we just going to smother it with something that makes us you know like looking back like a like a memory of what it was we wanted it to be like okay

this is a this movie was made back then and we just kept it from you for 50 years and then it is yeah I'd love to talk with that especially because I had read that you're like a big fan of like the energy of the 60s and 70s films. Um,

so I'm sure you put a lot into it. A hundred percent. I mean, I mean, 70s, I think is in many ways to sort of the golden age of the of cinema and, and, and yeah,

70s and 90s. 70s and 90s. I don't know what was in the water, but, but yeah, I agree, but sometimes, I mean, yeah, the 80s,

I mean, obviously a lot of stuff happened in the 80s, but, but I think a lot of terrible things. happened in the 80s but but i think i mean is it's the counterculture or whatever or whatever however you want to explain it but but it also led to this sort of liberation like with the dogma films in in in in denmark with las ventria his whole set out where it's like you know fuck the man you know we i don't need money i don't need guns i don't need vfx you know

we're just going to go and do it and i think that had a at a great effect yeah most So Those were In film school But yeah I would I would also love to talk about it I'll definitely see the machine

And no hard feelings When it comes out And then we can do the holdover as well But I'll let you Go get pizza man I don't want to hold you any longer Than you need Thanks for taking the time

So late in the day for you Much and pretty say it It was a pleasure Frame and Reference is an Alvod production It's produced an edit by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. As this is an independently funded podcast, we rely on support from listeners like you. So if you'd like to help, you can go to buy me a coffee.com slash frame and ref pod.

We really appreciate your support. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.