Frame & Reference Podcast - 103: "The Other Two" DP Charlie Gruet

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

Join us as we explore the fascinating journey of Charlie Gruet, the director of photography for The Other Two. Charlie kicks things off by sharing his entry into the creative industry through the High Maintenance web series, revealing his experiences at festivals like South by Southwest and his transition from the documentary space to scripted work. Charlie's intriguing storytelling paints a vivid picture of navigating the ever-changing creative landscape, providing insights into how the industry has evolved over the years. Charlie also brings us along as he reflects on his passion for cinematography and prop making. He discusses the significance of HD cameras and how he utilized his still photography portfolio to land documentary work. Technology has revolutionized the creative industry and Charlie explores this theme, emphasizing the role of equipment and portfolio reels in seizing opportunities. Also, hear about his unique experiences on set at Saturday Night Live, working with different lenses and cameras to achieve varying looks. Towards the end, Charlie shares some wisdom, touching on topics such as the best and worst pieces of advice he has received, dealing with car impoundment, and the importance of trustworthiness. We also examine the distinct challenges comedy production presents compared to dramatic production, taking a closer look at the work of Chris Kelly and Sarah Schneider, creators of The Other Two. Listen in for Charlie's thoughts on filming techniques, VFX considerations, and how tech scouting and pre-lighting can create the desired ambiance for a scene. You won't want to miss this exciting journey into the world of cinematography and the creative industry. (0:00:15) - Creative Community and Festival Navigation (0:16:21) - Passion for Cinematography and Prop Making (0:21:44) - The Importance of Reels for DPs (0:28:50) - Filmmaking Process and Equipment Usage (0:40:47) - Season 3 of the Other Two (0:47:19) - Discussing Filming Techniques and VFX Considerations (0:54:44) - Film Preferences and Worst Advice Discussion Follow F&R on all your favorite social platforms!⁠ You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 103 with Charlie Gruitt, DP of the other two. Enjoy. A little backstory to me is like I lived in LA and kind of came up through LA, just working, doing the whole sort of, all sorts of stuff. Basically, you know, gripped, electric, camera, did location, scouting. I did a lot of still photography, a little still photography assisting. So when I moved to East, I was mostly in the documentary space.

I was shooting advertising, but mostly like real people advertising, and I was doing documentary work. So then I basically was like, I always won, I never saw myself going into documentary. It just like the opportunities arose. And so I went to them. And then eventually I was like, okay, I want to change paths and go more towards scripted stuff. So the creative community here is, I do think there was a lot of, or at least from my entrance into it, was kind of through knowing people who did UCB. And I met some people who did UCB in New York. And they, and then I started working on projects with them.

kind of opened up some avenues to some other stuff. And then also, quite honestly, you know, I met Ben Sinclair and Katia Blickfeld, the two creators of high maintenance. And I met Ben on like a short web series that he was acting in. And he was like, hey, my wife and I, they were married at the time. He's like, my wife and I are going to do this web series would you be down to shoot it you know would you want to be like all eight maybe yeah this was this was no you know what it you know what it was it was probably it was probably 2012 yeah 2012 yeah so peak of web seriesing yes yeah exactly and so um through him and katia i met and russell gregory another guy involved in the creation of that web series, I kind of met all these young creatives in the New York

scene. So it was really ultimately just kind of like one nexus point for me. And it was mostly high maintenance. Because I was also, you know, where I was in my life at that time, I was married. When I moved to New York, I was married, had just had my second kid. kid. So it wasn't like hanging out in the social scene so much, you know, more of a suburbs guy. But yeah, I would say it was kind of like my entry into the creative community in New York was through high maintenance and met a lot of people who were work or just either just coming out of like NYU grad school, film school there and meeting other DPs and other, you know, filmmakers of that age who were getting into, you know, wanting to do stuff.

So they kind of would help with high maintenance. And it just kind of blossomed from there. It is, you know, I, the website I write for a Pro Video Coalition that puts this podcast out, kind of has me in two worlds with most things that I do online, which is like half educational. Well, I should say half educational, half trying to be educated because every once in a while someone comes out, you know, someone who's a newbie or whatever comes up with a sick idea or like workflow and you're like, all right, cool. But yeah, entertaining and educational. And I find that one thing that's frustrating is people will always have this like, well, how do I, how do I get there?

And I'm always just like, I don't know, go to festivals and start working on just anything. and that answer always seems I guess frustrating but it's that's the truth like even if if you think I saw a Reddit thread the other day that was like oh festivals are all bullshit and we need a revolution there and I'm like

okay maybe but getting into a festival almost isn't as important as going to the festival and meeting the other people who are making stuff yeah I mean I okay so my festival experience was so I went to South by Southwest in 2005 with a documentary that I shot called Self Made Man

was for the PBS program, POV. And that was, it was like Austin in 2005 was very different than Austin now. And it was small and it was like very filmmaker friendly. And then a couple years later in 2007 went back to South by Southwest with a film that I made with Matt Ogan's called and Jamie Patrickoff called Confessions of a Superhero, a documentary about characters that dress up as superhero characters in front of the man's Chinese theater in Hollywood. Oh, sure.

Pictures, yeah. It's a great film. If I haven't seen it, I definitely know of it. It's, it's, I got to be on it. It was like, it was peak, like, it was right in the entrance of, um, of like, documentary he's kind of hitting big you know it was the same year that

the King of Kong you remember that one King of Kong the guy that played Donkey Kong I think it was this Seth Gordon the director he made that movie there was a lot it was it was a good time it was like also technology wise

there was like mini DVD was like now shooting 24P the HBX 200 the P2 was just coming out so the like people oh I hated those P2 cards they're so frustrating I know but you can shoot

720 you know so anyway that we made that film then so the festival South by Southwest it was still very filmmaker friendly and that's all it was and of course there was music

as well and then I went back in 2018 for a movie I did called Most Likely to Murder which was like a lion's gate film and I I was like, yeah, South by, I haven't been here forever. And I got there and I was like, holy shit. I was like, there's, I'm like, where are the filmmakers?

You know, it was like, and no shade here, but it was like all podcasters and all tech. And I was like, I literally could, I was like, where's the filmmaker lounge? I want to, you know, is there, where can I hang out? And it was really difficult to meet other filmmakers. That being said, and I, you know, not to jump on the Reddit thread of saying festivals are shit, but like, I was disappointed because I was like, oh, man, you know, like this once, you know, very, like, cool filmmaker-friendly festival seemed to have turned less filmmaker-friendly. But, you know, I know it's still filmmaker-friendly and it's still a great place, but. Well, that actually highlights kind of, I guess, where I was heading, which was the bigger festivals aren't necessary, especially it's anything, you know, when it gets too big, now it becomes more commercialized and it's less for the people doing it. But to not in my brand, I didn't respond to this thread, but in my head, I was like, who cares if you didn't get into whatever, South By, like there's a bunch of smaller, whatever, the Santa Barbara Film Festival.

My buddy put his documentary there, yada, yada, yada, nominated for an Emmy. yeah you know like it's you can get you know the smaller ones or even to the point of like web series i remember when web series especially we're first starting to come out by 2012 i feel like they were kind of catching steam but people were like excuse you like we're gonna and actually didn't the writer strike kind of like really spur on web series like we had doctor horribles sing along blog and shit like that they ended up i would say i mean maybe i i i'm not an authority on that yeah exactly i mean but it was 2008 and i i You know, what I know that happened then was that there was definitely like a blossoming of reality shows, which I worked on as well as a deep, young DP.

I got my chance to shoot a reality show. And I was like, yeah, great. Going back to your thought of like, just do, you know, how do I get there? How do I do this? You know, like do stuff. And, you know, I'm 50 years old. So I started in 1994 in Los Angeles, and my last semester senior year, I went to Ithaca college.

I did like an internship program in L.A. And I stayed and I was like, you know, the company I was interning for was a commercial production company. And, you know, I kind of was like, I knew I wanted to do stuff, make movies, but I wasn't like laser focused. It was more like, it was more like, I want to be. in this industry. So I found myself like just being like, oh, cool, music video, I'll work on that. Oh, you need someone to go do a light study for this commercial? Sure, I'll do that.

And like PAing and camera PA, grip PA, electric PA, any type of PA in commercials, because this was also like in the 90s where commercials were, you know, three or four million dollars. You know, there'd be like a five million dollar Coca-Cola commercials. Like that was common, you know. Fincher was so commercials. Yeah. And it was. it was it was exactly and and um you know you'd be you could be on a 10-day commercial shoot you know what I mean like you'd be on a car commercial for a month or something you know um and then you know that after peeing I was like oh that's cool gripping is neat let me try that like you know electric is neat let me try that you know so I my path was not I didn't go to like film school

and then grad school and come out at DP and be like, I just want to DP. I kind of was like, I didn't know I wanted to DP right away. I thought I wanted to direct. I wanted to direct like everyone else, you know. So I came out and, but then I started realizing,

I was like, oh man, I'm really much more of like a, oh, I enjoy directing and I enjoy the, the aspects that go into that. But I enjoy the technical side. of this craft. I like being a craftsman, you know. Um, and, and that's when I started seeing,

you know, I was started like gravitating more towards, you know, camera work and stuff like that. Um, I don't know, am I just rambling? What is, no, I told you at the beginning. Rambling is, uh, perfectly. Yeah. I guess. Okay. But, uh, that it's hardening to hear that though, because I, that's basically what I did is, I went to film. I went to ASU, but I went to the film school there at the time and it had just started like two years prior. and just knew that I wanted to be in the film you know I was in theater before that so like the filmmaking community uh as it were and uh yeah I think I graduated not even knowing well long story short I ended up working for Red Bull and I thought I was going to do that for the rest of my life because it was super cool and they're like yeah we don't need you anymore and I was like okay and I was a photographer too so I had like I left college with like no real my my senior project was good but not something you would show anyone um I think I was that I was similar, similar vibe for me too. I think, you know, I, I, uh, when I got out or when I was going for my internship, they were like, oh, here's, here's this commercial production company. I was like,

commercials. I was like, I don't want to do commercials. And like the guy who was running the program, this guy, Steve Troppiano, he was like, he's like, basically they shoot on film. It's like little movies, you know, and I was like, okay. And then I remember like, I don't know, very first week of interning. They were like, oh, take these tapes. This is back when things were on like three quarter inch pneumatic tapes. They're like, take these casting tapes to the director. Errol Morris was the director. Casual. And I was like, Errol Morris. I'm like, okay. I'm like, I did like a whole semester studying like the thin blue line, you know, like this documentary research class. And now, and I'm like, he's doing a commercial. And I just was like, I was like, that's bullshit, you know? And

And the head of production at Chelsea Pictures, she was like, yeah, she's like, where do you think people make their money? Right. It was like, everybody, you know, she's like, a lot of people do commercials. And I was like kind of, it was like a quick reality check for me. I was like, oh, yeah, you know, art is one thing and commerce is another. And, you know, and going out and making money is doing your craft is what you have to kind of do. So, um, that was a quick lesson.

Well, I think to your point about like, I, I, I'm in the camp that like film school is not necessary, but it certainly is, uh, incredibly helpful, um, for multiple reasons. But I think one thing where film schools kind of tend to fail is I don't think they hammer that down very well. And because they're showing you godfather. They're showing you citizen Kane. They're showing you fucking birth of a nation. Uh, yeah.

all these like huge films and they sent this kind of expectation in you that you're going to go off and make you know Empire Strikes back or whatever and make all your it's going to be really fun it's going to be you're going to make a billion dollars and everyone's going to love you yeah I know I think um you know one thing that kind of like irked me when I first got out of school is that like I think college kind of set me up to to be and it was. I don't want to sound like shit like like I don't know just like not I don't I'm trying to think of a good word like set me up to be an artist but I right that sounds really uh sounds really lame but it's like they kind of like set me up to be a filmmaker you know um and think that way which I think was good but then when I got to the real world I was like oh I don't have any real world training and that was something that kind of bummed me out like like like avids, you know, like digital non-linear editing. They never talked about that. I mean, it was right at the cusp of like the mid-90s, you know, there was a lot of like, um, we weren't taught that in the early 90s in college. It was like linear editing. You cut on a steenbeck, you know, and, you know, you did, if you did video editing, it was like inline, uh, cutting or online cutting. Um, so, you know, there were a lot just, I just was like, oh, it's a lot of business. It's a lot of, there's so many other like technical aspects that they didn't really teach me at school but they

taught me that you know i guess like the heart of it which i think was good and it made me want to make empire strikes back well the uh well slightly on that note one thing that because i left college not really knowing like i didn't actually want to be like a director like most people i kind of just wanted so i was i guess i figured something would pop up that i would be like i'm adapt at that yeah and so it became cinematography but I have some friends that work at Legacy Effects now speaking of Star Wars and I've said this a few times

maybe it's just that I'm fascinated by it but I do remember making props as a kid and being very fascinated by that and I think there was no class that was like this is prop making so there was no shot that I was even gonna comprehend how to get in there but yeah I've mentioned it a few times on this podcast it was like if I had found a way to get into that

I mean my friends are exhausted but you know they got to make Groguin's shit so yeah yeah that's I, you know, I watch like on Disney Plus, like all the ILM, you know, documentaries about like how they'd start. And I'm like, because as a kid, I made models, you know, I was always like little painting and crafting models and stuff. And when I, when I got home, when I got out of college, I remember being in my house with some friends. I was in Santa Monica. And I was like, I was like, I want to be a model maker. You know, it's, again, like, I don't think I know. knew what I wanted to be when I got out of school.

And it wasn't until later, like I said earlier, when I was really seeing the cinematographer on commercials specifically. And specifically, I remember it was one guy, Boyan Bezelli, who said to me, he was like, yeah, he's like, this is great. He's like, I fly in or whatever. I come in. I go out to dinner with the agency. I shoot their thing.

and then I go to the little rap dinner and then I say goodbye Yeah And he's like And I have all You know And I was like Oh yeah

That is pretty cool You know He also gave me Some good advice about my reel You know I was working with real And he was like I was like

Oh what if somebody wants me To shoot this thing But I don't Haven't done it yet And he's like Oh just tell him you took it off your reel Yeah He's like tell him it was on your old reel

And you don't have any more reels And all you have is the new reel, but it's, you know, it's not, it's on the old rail. I was like, oh, yeah, because back in the day, there was at the time where, like, if you didn't have it on tape, you know, it just really didn't exist. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, you know, and then, you know, yeah, I found cinematography, I think later in my career, um, because I, I always loved photography. Like, when I first moved to L.A. out of college, one of some of, Some of the first jobs I got were photo assistants.

And I really enjoyed being able to do the lighting, do the art, do the styling. You know, it was like me, a photographer, a stylist, you know, and the subject or whatever, you know. I thought I kind of liked that hands-on, scrappy kind of endeavor. And I think that's where like. That's the same way. Yeah. When I started to, and then I started, you know, I was working in commercials and working as an a great. but electric locations just doing whatever I could to make money and I remember being on some

healthcare ad and being like you know two people they we built this thing on stage and and we did like two days of pre lighting and it was like just a two shot you know it was like it was like so big and so massive and I was like gosh I was like you know if I was doing this with a still photographer we'd have like a couple lights here couple lights there and absolutely you know it looked pretty good so i kind of tracked out of that and was like i want to go just more in the still photography side because i felt like i was learning how to make things big but with not a lot of people not a lot of money and now you know um and then that kind of like led me to uh documentary work because documentary work there was you know no one ever there was never a lot of money in it but

so a lot of doc filmmakers would be they would take a chance on some young dude who had like a pretty decent like still portfolio you know and they'd like okay well you can shoot this right you know um and then i also like i you know uh HD i remember when like HD was coming out and this is before mini d was like i forget that like the f900 or whatever there's some like HD camera and i remember getting like some calls from people who were like, hey, can you shoot HD? And it was like, yeah, I can shoot HD. Like, okay, we're looking for an HDDP. I'm like, yeah, that's me.

I can do that. Oh, my God. So I've talked about like the camera technology changing for like, you know, maybe younger listeners who don't understand how good they have it because I'm an old man screaming at clouds. But I forgot that I had seen so many resumes. Sorry to interrupt you. Where it's said HDDP, like people had to advertise that they were in HD.

cinematographer because you wouldn't say I'm a 4k cinematographer now people like yeah duh yeah right I mean I think this was in the year I mean this was the year probably like you know you're looking at like 2000 2001 yeah around there and I specifically like I remember going I forget the name of the camera house was in L.A but I got like I got to go in and like play with the very cam you know

and and like learn it and like and then I could be like oh I can shoot variegam and that literally like open doors because people like do you know how to use the very cam I'm like yeah and they're like great you know so um yeah there was this kind of like point in the in the timeline where I could you know I learned some new technology and it helped me I don't know how that relates to now but well I was just thinking about that because uh as you were saying it because you would never put like I said you'd never put like 4KDV but also by saying HDDP people were making a leap because it wasn't that you knew

how to shoot in a high definition it was you knew the equipment yeah yeah so the I guess these days people would be like have you shot on whatever Alexa or probably more apt have you shot this specific red body that came out two months ago you're like right yeah and that's what you just say yeah it's um but

I just took it off my reel yeah yeah that's actually some I've asked a bunch of DPs this but how important is a reel these days do you think to the average DP. I think it's crucial. It's vital. I mean, if you, yeah, I mean, I've heard a lot of those. Well, I, okay, so you're, okay, maybe I'm, I'm misusing the term real. Like, a real, you mean like a two-minute montage. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I. On Vimeo or YouTube or whatever.

I think that it's crucial for people who don't have a larger body of work. that they can lean on and say, you know, here's my repertoire of stuff. Something that's fill a website portfolio. Yeah. So if I'm, because I think, you know, when I was starting out, I did that. I made like a two and a half minute super cut of things that looked great, you know. And I, and my friend is a trailer editor. And he like, that's a good friend.

He did. He did this admit. I mean, I cut it. And then he was like, let me take it. could pass at this. And then I was like, oh, damn. So it was great. So, you know, I think it's important for young, you know, or you're not young, but like, you know, DPs who are, who are entering into this to, you know, to show like, hey, I can get some cool shots, you know, as opposed to like, yeah, I did this show or I did this movie, you know, if you have like a

variety of short films where people probably aren't going to have access to those entire pieces. It maybe isn't a bad idea. I personally, I look at it now. If I see someone has a reel, I don't look at it. Because I'm like, oh, they got a real. I'm like, what's the point? You know, but so I don't know. I mean, I feel like it's good for some and maybe not useful for others.

The general consensus seems to be basically what you're saying is like, it's important to have a portfolio of some kind, but reels are only, and I've noticed this in my own life. Like when I first started the reel was all I had because all I had was a selection of pretty pictures, basically, you know, in motion. And then as I've gotten further along, it becomes more word of mouth, honestly. But people going off the back of the last project you shot. And then everyone's, like, I just got a gig where basically I was recommended, but the guy just wanted to double check that. the look that I was inherently putting out was what he was thought it was which it was so I got the job but yeah you know my real if we're just to go off of views like I think it's got like a thousand views on YouTube and it's been up for a year and a half you know and it's I know it's like subscribers on the channel you know where like this podcast goes out so they're probably like let's see if this guy talking knows what the fuck I I you know um yeah I mean I shit I was going to say something that was, I was like, oh, oh, oh. And then I just told my bad. No, no, no. It's not your fault. It's my, um, stupid brain. Um, I, um, I was going to say something about reels that I thought

was helpful, but, um, I don't know. Oh, you know what it was. Here's, um, something that I think is helpful for DPs is when making a reel. If you can, if you can string together a sequence of shots from a scene as opposed to like a wide shot a shot a crash a boom you know like a full like a full montage of like non sequitur stuff right it's helpful to kind of show directors and um showrunners or or producers or whatever that you can craft a sequence because I think that is so vital um I would say that like, you know, 100% of my job now is, you know, it's so much more like attuned to like, how do we get all this in an hour and a half? Or how do we convey this this emotion or tone and, you know, in our schedule? So it's, I think, helpful to show people

that you can tell a story with the juxtaposition of camera placement and shots. Right. And I think that's, you know, so sometimes reels don't do that. And I think they should. Well, and not to mention,

like, if the whole point of a reel is to sell someone on the idea that you know what you're doing, you could show that you can take pretty pictures with a Instagram feed, you know? Right. It's not, what does the reel add to, your still photography, essentially.

That's a good point, yeah. I did want to ask about the S&L thing because I've never actually interviewed anyone who worked there. Okay. What was working on the, because I assume you did the shorts? Yes, digital film, the film unit, yeah. Yeah. What was that kind of workflow like?

Because I know it's super accelerated for the live show. Was it the same for the shorts? For sure. Yeah. What was that experience? What did you learn? Okay, so the experience there, so basically what I, I did season 42 and season 43, and so basically what would happen is that on Wednesday, like Monday night they do a read-through of the show and like work out, you know, pick some sketches and, you know, pick what they're going to go, you know, rehearse all week. Wednesday night, they do a read-through of the film unit scripts. When I was there, I still think there are, there were three film units when I was there.

I was on the Beast unit. And Blake McClure was on the film unit and Jason Bandermer was on Good Neighbor. Those are the three DPs that were there. So what they would do is that Wednesday night they would read the scripts and then they would basically assign a script to each unit. And those are just the code names for the units? Yeah. Beasts, Good Neighbor and Film Unit. Yeah.

So now I think there's Beast Unit, Film Unit, and Magic Unit. Good Neighbor was, Good Neighbor was based on the sketch group of Beck Bennett, Dave McCrary, and Kyle Mooney. Kyle Mooney's great. Yeah. Yeah. They did, they had a thing called Good Neighbor. so when they came in they were like we're going to make our sketches so so those good neighbor had like they were very much like uh contained to to those ideas um yeah um so so so wednesday you get the

script um basically the the director of my unit was paul briganti and so paul and i would talk Wednesday night we'd look at get the script and then we would just throw some ideas back and fourth, um, Paul would basically really quickly be like, it's, um, okay, this script is a send up of this music video. Uh, this, uh, I want to do for this script, it's going to be, let's shoot it like this. Or let's try and make it, um, film it. Um, or this one's going to be a, you know, parody of that, you know, um, so Wednesday, Wednesday night would be like, just, some quick research on stuff um we had we shot with um Alexa minis and we had like cook S4s on hold like every week you know yeah but we we would we would be yeah I use I use S for us all the time

but we with for the film unit we would uh we worked with um Abel Cini they would you know try and get us whatever we could for, you know, for the look. And so essentially we would switch out lenses. So like there are times where I use some hawk anamorphics. I use some cook anamorphics. There were times we found some like old cook. I forget the name of the like old cook zooms, you know, like classic cook zooms. Sometimes we do, you know, we try to, you know, use lenses that,

that would speak to the piece a little bit. So then Thursday morning, we'd all meet at 30 Rock. We'd go out and location scout because it was always on location. And by Thursday afternoon, we'd go back to 30 Rock. And then we would, we would, what would we'd do? We'd hang out and talk. And we just had this bullpen where it was like the production designer, the gaffer, the grip, you know, the age.

you know production you know everybody would just kind of like be like okay this is what we're going to do and then Friday morning we would shoot um and then uh and then sometimes those were very very long days and other times they weren't but we were basically we would be spread you know it kind of what would happen is like we would film our something for our unit like with the host from like 9 a.m. to 10 a.m. And then the host would have to go to the other film unit and film there. And then that host would have to go back to Rock Center and like rehearse for the live show. So there was a lot of, I mean, it was a scheduling nightmare in that nothing in the, in the real world of production operates this way.

And, and, like, you would, you would shoot, you know, you would. You shoot like Kate McKinnon and then like have a body double for like 80 Bryant's shoulder. But we don't get eight, you know, and it's like 9 a.m. But you don't get 80 until 5 p.m. So then you go off and you shoot other things and then you come back and you shoot the reverse of 80, 10 hours later, into completely different lighting situations, but you have to manipulate it. So that's unreal. You know, like, it's, it's fun and it's like a challenge beyond belief, you know.

What we did have is that we always had enough crew and we always had enough money. We never had enough time. And so that was difficult and, you know, would strain, would put a strain on us a little bit. But, you know, then we'd go back. Then Friday, we'd film all day. into the wee hours or whatever and then Friday night all would you know we never downloaded

anything on set either we would just take the cards and just run them back to editorial and they would just start cutting with whatever they had so they would just be cutting overnight and then Saturday I would go to the mill

which was the color house like the color correction post house and we would basically just they would send like an assembly cut of like what they think they're going to use and we would just color all the footage that we could and set looks and then basically um that was it for me i would once the looks were set and i felt we all felt comfortable with it i would take off and then the colorist would stay until the show went on air because or stay until that bit that that segment

aired because they would be cutting that segment up until like literally in airtime and there were times where they'd be like hey we we're we're we're going to switch this shot you know and it would be 1125 and so like the colorist would have to like redo it or something you know like send in a new a new um version of the color um so yeah it was it was it was crazy but um but unique you know and and what was what was great from my standpoint, from a cinematography standpoint, was that it was like every week you did something you potentially could be doing something

completely different and new than what you did last week. You know, you might be doing like a rap music video and then next week you're doing like a meet cute rom-com and then the week after that you're doing like a side-by, you know, or something you know and so so that was cool um and i will say that like you know in i never really got much i mean i got a little bit of pushback like i'd be like hey we need two sets of anamorphics and the producers like the produce no no they'd be like really and i'd be like yeah we really do

and like okay i like like you know it's so like it was cool and i'd be like we need this 50 foot telescoping crane for this one shot we're going to get that we have to get um and so they're like so so like that was pretty awesome because in in my other work the pushback is much greater yeah no it's i uh yeah i'm on i'm on the greater pushback side of things where it's like well the big thing is like because i have a c 500 mark two so it's full frame and uh you'll get people going like oh we want to shoot full frame and we want to shoot anamorphic because we want this interview to look really cool. And you're like,

yeah. So it's going to cost, you know, this much to get full frame anamorphics. And they're always like, ooh, can you cut us a deal on that? I'm like,

you talk to the rental. You think I own these? Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah, full frames. I mean, full frame is great.

I did a show called Tommy Lies on Hulu, which came out in the fall. We shot it last spring. We shot the DXL2, 8K. Yeah. And, with Pana Speeds

and we they were great to work in like that full frame that was my kind of first full frame kind of foray it was nice

you put full frame DP on your on your one side exactly plowing MDP and the other DP the DP that shot the pilot and then was on for the other half of the season Luke Montpellier

he was super into that I mean, he set the look because he shot the pilot. And that was, you know, he was like, yeah, he's like full frame. You know, you get these, you can do these like wide angle closeups, but things like really fall off and stuff. And so I love, you know, and that show was a lot about putting the camera right in people's faces to be in their head. It's definitely, like, I've pushed back, pushed back a lot on people saying like,

Ooh, I love the full frame look because I'm kind of on the Steve Yedlin side of things of like, well, there's not, there's no look inherent in full frame, but there is a workflow like the wide closeup, you know, that still looks like you're on a 50. Yeah. On Super 35. You can do that technically with the, with the amount of room you tend to be given. But in a giant stage, you know, you can make anything kind of look like anything. but it's definitely like the the look in terms of obviously with a bigger sensor inherent a bigger sensor you're going to have more physical resolution more pixels like the the smooth the tones and the smoothness of the fall off and the gradation is is always a lot nicer yeah yeah i mean i will say that for i live i mean i don't know i'm not like a super technical dp um i i i Yeah, I came to this nerd first, trust me. Okay, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm more, uh, well, you went to Ithaca, so you got the, you got the, you got the, I knew, I learned how to do keg stands and I learned how to, I learned all the important things.

ASU, yeah, one, yeah, drinking 101, the importance of the pacer beer, you know? Um, you know, I, I do a lot of TV. So I find that like, um, I don't know if I, I, I don't know if I, I don't want to, I don't know if you really can tell with this stuff so much with TV. I mean, it's amazing what you can do, but I do feel like if you're shooting specifically for the cinema and for projection and for the theater, a lot of, you know, choice in sensor and choice in lenses and stuff, it really has like, there's like a next level to that stuff. Whereas I think with television, some of it gets a little lost in translation. I mean, because not everyone is sitting at home watching on like a 65-inch TV in a dark room, you know. I did want to just speak in a television and banking off the S&L thing and the kind of like different looks and stuff. Last night I watched the email they sent me, they were like, all right, it's the other two,

season four, or episode four has this really cool pleasant or a small pleasant, pleasant, pleasant, pleasant, pleasant, pleasant, yeah, I know the movie. And I was like, ooh, I want to watch that. And for people listening at the time of this recording, it is not out. And I was not given a screener. Oh, okay. So I watched the first three episodes. But in the brief, they were like, there's a different look for everything. Did you kind of pull that S&L knowledge of like immediate looks and quick movement to do that show?

Absolutely. I mean, Chris Kelly and Sarah Schneider, the creators of the other two, were the headwriters on season 42. the headwriters of S&L on season 42 when I was there. So that's where I met them. Direct connection. Yeah. Exactly. And so they, you know, I worked with them on a handful of, you know, film unit, you know,

film unit sketches that we did. And they bring that vibe to this show. And I think that in especially like in the other two, you know, season one was kind of about this young boy, you know, being like thrown into like stardom immediately. and his older brother and sister kind of, you know, them being, like, pulled along by the gravity of it. Season two, it was more, it was just character-driven, but it didn't seem like there was a lot of big set pieces. I mean, there were certainly some, but season three of the other two this year, there's some very big creative swings. And, like, each episode has, like, distinct, unique, uniquely distinct set pieces that,

um can really like make it stand alone you know um like so yes episode four is basically carry the care one of the main characters in the show he gets um cast in a tv show called emily overruled which is like an like a courtroom drama and it's in the 18th season you know and they just do the same thing day in and day out same thing day in and day out so we made it like, or Pleasantville, you know, Chris and Sarah crafted it so that it would be like a Pleasantville experience. So when he walks onto set, he color drains and all of a sudden, he's in this black and white world. And he wants to change things up by like standing off his mark and doing, you know, like acting and showing these other actors that like, look, you can, you know, be alive and be different. and that's how like you know the color bursts into scene um so yeah i mean that that was like

absolutely an episode where we very much like went for a specific look um you know there's other like there's a there's like a broke back mountain sand up you know in later on in the season you know um i think in episode two we did some like rom-com vibe uh where we where they go like you know it's like book smart you know they're like this you know they go in the pool and there's like swimming you know um so we tried to kind of like evoke kind of some of those images that might resonate with some of the viewers from other projects in pop culture um and i definitely think that in in in this season season three these you'll see a lot of that um which it's a so i had not seen the show my girlfriend had heard of it um but i have been ferociously busy so i haven't been

you haven't seen it no i watched this three interviews over yeah yeah bye um so i watched the first three episodes and at first i was like oh okay i get it you know cute show and then like the more absurd it started to get and where i like really dialed and went okay i'm here for like a fun right and yeah all three episodes were like i really like the one where she can't be seen at the party yeah like that shit just had me rolling because it's so like i'm i when i say dumb i mean in like the most loving way possible like it's it's silly absurd amazing dumbness dumb dumb was a term that um chris and sarah would use so like if this is dumb that like they would watch it take and they or they'd be like oh my god this is so dumb that means it was perfect and we can

move on you know so like um yeah for sure we basically i mean that show has like especially this season there's a lot of like emotion and a lot of heart and there's but like coupling that with a lot of like absurdity and fast-paced comedy and lots like jokes you know a joke every minute you know um so I think um the absurdity like goes to a next level um in this uh in this season you'll see if you keep watching I definitely will be I wanted to ask like specifically the one that comes to mind is with that really with all three of those episodes but because you did one through four and eight through 12 I yes one through four eight through 12 I directed six and seven and I had COVID for five so congrats fully got to direct though but

I wanted to kind of ask because one thing that I think some people who maybe are starting out or maybe just interested in film and aren't necessarily filmmakers don't understand is It would seem on the outside that shooting a drama, you know, shooting seven would be more difficult to light. But it's usually not because you only need one big source and you're done. Whereas comedy is like 100,000 lights. So, for instance, one thing I was very jealous of is you've got this scene in the party where she can't be seen. Yeah. Where you've got all the characters in a bathroom.

And I fucking despise bathroom beans because they're impossible to light and there's a mirror. So you're really constricted on angles. How did you like that? Well, here's what I'm going to say. I did not shoot that scene. I was that scene. Here's what. Zach Schambardt shot that scene.

What, so it's, yeah, so unfortunately, I can't give you the secrets. Give you the secrets on that one. But I, that scene kept getting punted to the end of the schedule. And then I had to leave. So Zach shot that. Zach D.Ped episode five and episode six. So I think, though, because we had tech scouted it and everything, but I think what we were planning on doing was we rigged, we put up, you know, extended policy.

Yeah, I was, why am I blanking? Matthews makes them, I think, right? Yeah. Oh, my God. Spreaders. Spreaders. Yeah, we put up spreaders. um that was the plan put up spreaders and then have like you know a variety of like backlight and

front light and then and some side light and then so basically just like rimming the room um and what you could do is then like then matt mendelsohn who was our gaffer um would work with christian i can't remember his last name christian was our dimming board off but they would you know we would have everything kind of pre-lit you know front light here backlight here front light here, backlight here, and then kind of just like, you know, once we'd frame up, dial stuff in. So I'm assuming that's what they did for that scene. Because that's basically that was the workflow on a lot of stuff. And especially with the mirror there, I know when we were tech scouting, we definitely wanted to use spreaders and kind of work off a grid because of

reflections. Now, there was some VFX planned in that scene. so right you know we were kind of like in the tech scout we're kind of like all right well if we have to paint something out we can that was something that's something that people do quite often but it seems like the jobs i'm on that never happens but like you know like people will shoot like yeah people or they'll paint out like i i know uh i heard from some people that worked on hacks there was like this great big wide shot of a room and then a close up and i was like oh wow I talked to them, I was like, so you had to shoot the, you had to shoot this master? Like, no, no, we shot the wide and the close up at the same time.

We just painted out the camera and the operator. So I've, okay. I've actually heard that, and I've tried to, the problem. So I'm kind of going back to what you were saying about like doing everything. I got a lot of skills, so, you know, coloring, editing, whatever. And I can't remember what it was, but someone had mentioned that David Fincher, who I bring up far too often, on this audience would do that like boom bolt's uh light stands like if it yeah he's like we're just painted out because he's gonna touch every inch of every frame anyway and so i've been doing

that specifically with boom poles when they you know dip in or whatever but yeah lights and and but i've heard a couple people do that camera mover they're like we're just gonna shoot the wide and then bring the camera and set it down and send it and yeah yeah a little plate that we can I mean, and here's where, and another thing, which happens a lot, but, you know, I haven't really been able to do too much of it, but is if you're going to do a Dolly move and you're doing a slow push in, but you want to be on a wider lens, you'll see the track. So a lot of times that stuff gets painted out. And, because you'll see like a move that's like, you know, laser still. And it's just pushing forward, pushing forward, pushing forward. And you

you're like, man, you're like, that's a pretty wide lens. I would, and that's a 20 foot move. Right. Why am I not seeing the track? It's because it gets painted out. We would paint, the only thing we really painted out in this season was the boom pole. We would do this, we probably did this, you know, a few times a week is that there would be, we would want to shoot like a wide and I'd want, and I'd have the opportunity to get like,

second camera could shoot like over the shoulder on a long lens close up but then you know the sound department would be like what the fuck we can't you know we can't boom we can't boom this so we would we would set it up so that we could um paint out the boom you know or we'd get a plate so that they could use it um that because that that technology and that like um that workflow is not insane you No. And especially if you get a clean plate, like for people listening, you want to try it. Just get a clean plate. You don't have to send it to VFX. Just get a shot of whatever. Obviously, you're probably going to want to be locked off. But yeah, you can just cut paste. You're done. It's there. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, there's a, it's a, it's, we had a VFX supervisor who was in L.A. And he was very present. I forget his name. I'm terrible with names. Not me too. It's sorry. He would be, you know, ever press. present on you know face times and text and and he would watch over um cue take uh which is you know we would transmit the the basically the footage on cue take i was expecting frame of you

yeah and so we would do that um and he would you know he'd be like hey make sure you get a play to this you know sometimes he might be a little bit late and we're like shit sorry man we already moved content to where I feel have fun yeah exactly so um but you know it was helpful to have because it's it's very easy on set for people to be like oh we can paint it out you know and here's something that like annoys me a little bit in um uh in the world now it seems like dPs are asked oh can this be painted out Or can that do this? Or can we comp that in?

And I'm kind of like, my answer is always like, I'm not a, I'm not to be a first supervisor. But then like my next answer tacking onto that is I'm like, you can do anything. Right. Okay. You can do anything. I don't have the purse or the, you know, the time. You know, I'm not in control of schedule or money. But I know that you can do anything because I've seen the results of it, you know.

And what I think, what is dangerous is that everybody now working in film or television or what has seen some behind the scenes thing or has watched a movie or has watched something where they're like, yeah, we just rotoscoped it out and we built a city back there and blah, blah, blah, you know, and you're like, oh, that's amazing. I want to do that. you're like you know but do you have the time and money to do that you know um so you know I would say whenever something was asked of me like can we paint this out my very first thing is I would get the producer line producer and I'm like can we paint this out and I'm like I need a verbal I need a verbal uh yes or no from you um because you know you don't want to get like um you don't want to get, like, blamed for stuff. Oh, and the DP said that we can paint it out, you know.

I don't know. It's also like, you know, are you asking if I can? Because I probably could. I don't know if it'll look good. Yeah, right. It could certainly take a crack at it. Or do you mean, we? Yeah.

Right. So, I mean, you know, Alan, is that anything can be, anything can get done. Absolutely anything. Whether you had the time and money for it, you know, is another thing. Yeah. What's the triangle good? fast cheap yeah good fast choose to yeah i mean it is it is the absolute truth uh of yeah it was filmmaking good faster cheap you get to choose to yeah not all three um well i i want

to be respectfully the time because we just hit the uh hour mark and it is well i guess it's is it friday it is friday so i guess maybe a little lax but um i do end the uh podcast with the same two questions for everyone okay uh and apparently they're thinkers so don't don't feel bad there's a long pause here okay um i will cut the pause out uh first one better for films than television but if you were to schedule a double feature with the other two and another film or television program uh what would it be huh okay uh so you're saying like okay if i would to take the other two and then what would be the other show that you would watch now does it have to be like do i have to pick the episode of the other two it's your double feature so you i'm thinking i'm thinking

more of the show in general because like i said it's easier with a film than a television show but like the show in general and then either a compliment or contrast or whatever in your hand make would be a interesting view um oh okay long okay long pause here Fire up the editing machine. You know, it's a really interesting question because the contrast, like, I'm wondering if I should be drawn to like a contrast. Or is it something that you want to just stay in that mindset? You know, that's a tough call. I would, you know, I don't know.

I would just say like right now, right now, my answer would be. and I know you know what's going to suck is that later this afternoon I'm going to regret what I say and I'm like no it should have been this no it should have been this just email it to me and I'll do a voice a voice at the end

God you know this is like that game when people say like what are your top five movies what are your top three movies and I'm like man they switch all the time but what I'm going to say is I would say the other two double feature

a show called Somebody Somewhere on HBO. Okay. Yeah. And the other two is also on HBO, so that's an easy. Yeah. So there you go.

You save one platform, one platform to rule them all. So that's what I would say. Yeah, it's kind of a different tone, but also a half hour, comedy, but a different take on comedy.

Oh, yeah. So, yeah. Second question. A lot of podcast people go, what's the best piece of advice you ever got? And I think that's a silly question. I want to know what the worst piece of advice you ever got was. Oh, shit. Okay.

The worst piece. Yeah. You know, because the reason I can't call that up as quickly is because you try not to harbor and think about negative things. Sure. Yeah. You know, you try and remember the positive things that that propel you and lift you up. Well, if there is the best, the only reason I ask, I mean, unless you have it, but the only reason I ask that is because, A, it happened on one podcast where a guy, he goes, I don't

know what the best advice was, but I can tell you what the worst advice was. And I was like, that's a great question. Yeah. This is all inside baseball for this podcast now. Yeah. But I feel like a lot of the best advice tends to be, you know, the cream always rises to the top. So you get a lot of like, oh, stick with it. know, always when you have to, and it's kind of the same answer, whereas worst, everyone's

gotten terrible a bunch somewhere. But it could be unique to you. Here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to think about it. We're going to, you may have to edit this pause, but I am going to recall some of the worst advice. And I'm trying to remember what that would be. Hmm. Does it have to be career-related or can it just be bad advice?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's like the double future. It's your, it's your floor. Oh, man. This is a hard question. Next season, I might drop it. It makes people stressed out. It's, yeah, I don't know because I will, you know, I don't know if I have a specific, like,

there's, I don't know. if I have a specific thing where I was like, yeah, I'm going to listen to that. And then, okay, here, here's, here's, here's some advice I got. Has nothing to do with my career, but maybe it has something to do with me, which is something, I guess. Well, you're here for a reason, so. I wanted to buy a car many, many years ago. and I was like I want to buy an old classic car and my dad was like why why not you why not get a new car that works well why would you want like an old car and I was like because they're cool man you know they're like they're cool my dad was like don't do it and I was like okay he's like but he's like you're you know you're an adult you can do what you want so um

So I was talking to a friend, and he was like, well, how much money do you want to spend? I was like, oh, $5,000. And he's like, well, just give it to me. I'm a mechanic. I'll buy the car and I'll fix it up and give it to you. And I was like, okay. So I did that. And he gave me a car that never ran.

And it took me years and probably another $15,000 to get it running. and then I moved out of L.A. And I didn't bring the car with me. It was a 1966 El Camino. It was a really cool looking car. That's a cool car. And I got it running. And finally, for like three months, I was like, baller, you know.

And then I moved and I didn't take it with me. So the advice that the guy gave me about let me get the car for you was really kind of, I got conned a little bit. Yeah. Oh, here's another bad advice thing. I was, I just moved to L.A. And I was like, does it rain here? And someone says, no, it never rains.

Because I was like, I'm going to cut a hole in the roof of my car, which was a 1984 Chevy station wagon, Caprice Estate. And I was like, I'm going to cut a hole in the roof of my car, make a sunroof. And this guy was like, it never rains, dude, it would be fine. that year was like el nino and it was like the worst rain it was like the really terrible rain and i just got soaked so that was some bad advice there that's all i can remember that's fine i mean i i remember uh i've always my whole life and it was because of um gone in 60 seconds but i don't care yeah i've always wanted a restamod 67 uh fastback Mustang um restamod being

the operative word because I'm sure there's a bunch of running ones, but all the ones that I found come from Hawaii. So the underside is just corroded. Oh, yeah. Is this a salt there? Mm-hmm. And so people, it's less a problem in L.A., but in Hawaii for sure. And yeah, every 67 fastback I found has been too expensive, and they'd never show you a photo of the undercarriage and you're always like yeah when i went when i went to go so when i went to sell my car i my 66 l camino the uh the guy it had a moon roof in it and it had like it didn't have the original it was like it was really a beater it looked like it looked like shit but under the hood but it was just nice it was like all you know tricked out and and it was fast and strong um

But no one would buy it because everyone was like, oh, the body is just beat to shit and it's been modified and can't ever go back. And so, like, I basically gave it to somebody for like $200. I literally was like, I'm moving tomorrow. And this guy was like, oh, I'll take it. And I just sold this room for like a few hundred bucks. And then he never changed the registration or never changed anything. And a few years later, I got like, I got a call. call from like the Santa Monica Police Department. They're like, yeah, we've impounded your car,

spending a lot for, you know, six months and below you owe this much money. And I just, I was like, what the fuck? I was like, so I had to like take care of that and that that sucked. But, um, yeah, you can't tell the cops like, oh, uh, no, I sold that. And they're like, what proof? And you're like, uh, handshake guy did. Yeah. No, I, and you know what? Like I gave the dude the title and then he never did anything. I did it all. I did it all wrong. And, and, um, I got, you know, I got screwed forward. But I mean, you know, anyway. Well, I guess the bad, the bad advice is everyone is trustworthy and has your best interest

at heart. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Trust but verify is probably the good advice. Yeah. Although, was that, was that a Dick Cheney quote? That feels dirty.

That's, that's a tough one to end on. Um, but yeah. Uh, thanks for chatting with me, man. That was a lot of fun. And yeah, anytime you'd like to come back, please feel free to hit me up. For sure, man. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Frame and Reference is an Albot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. As this is an independently funded podcast, we rely on support from listeners like you. So if you'd like to help, you can go to buy me a coffee.com slash frame and ref pod. We really appreciate your support. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.