Frame & Reference Podcast - 112: "Andor" & "The Crown" DP Adriano Goldman

Episode Date: September 21, 2023

Join us for an enlightening conversation with the extraordinary Adriano Goldman, Director of Photography for Andor and The Crown. Adriano's distinctive insights illuminate the intricate details of digital IMAX capture, the profound depth of field in the format, and the singular challenge he faced while filming a commercial in the exotic Maldives Islands. We share an honest exchange on the unnerving uncertainties sparked by the sudden halt in production due to strikes, the necessity of investing in constructive downtime, and the undisclosed aspects of these strikes. In this lively discussion, we address the complicated realities and widespread misconceptions of the film industry. Adriano and I take a deep dive into the trials of articulating the crucial yet misunderstood role of cinematographers to those unfamiliar with the industry, the deceptive glamorization of film work, and the deep-seated respect earned by cinematographers despite such misconceptions. We also explore the blurred lines between production design and cinematography, and the cinematic influence of the 'Bourne Trilogy' on public perception. For all Star Wars aficionados out there, our conversation leads us to a meticulous examination of the subtle differences between shooting for Andor and The Crown. Adriano offers an insider's glimpse of the commendable effort to maintain the authenticity of the Star Wars universe and realities of the various eras depicted in The Crown, the collaborative dynamic between the cinematographer and production designer, and the painstaking endeavours to realistically portray the sets. Our chat covers a lot more ground, exploring the contrasting color palettes of the two series, and the strategies employed to create relatable sets. Tune in to our engaging banter as we cast light on the gritty reality and the artistic nuances of cinematography. ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow F&R on all your favorite social platforms!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 112 with Adriano Goldman, DP of Andor and the Crown. Enjoy. I did want to know because, you know, obviously everyone's been on break with the strikes and all. Have you been watching anything cool recently or how else have you been occupying your time now that there's not quite as much stuff going on? That's a good question. I haven't seen, for instance, I'm really, I really want to see Oppenheimer. I haven't had the chance.

Oh, buddy. Yeah, yeah. So at 9 Max, A and digital. Really? Yeah. it's staggering how much more detail there is I mean I just forgot but like the digital the IMAX capture is so much cleaner than even 70 millimeter it's wild in the digital version you don't quite notice but when you see it in full projection IMAX it's it's at least as a DP I don't know if regular people notice but like it's shocking how it's like you can see into the blacks oh there's no noise like it's just it's fascinating and the and the depth of field that is very specific about that formats. I mean, yeah.

So I haven't seen much because we also moved to houses. I was finishing, I've been finishing the Crown season six, which is the last one. So I was busy in July in post-production. And then I got a commercial that happily took me to the Maldives Islands for the first time. Nice. So I had one shooting day at the Maldi violence. and three days off, so it was really a nice, kind of a nice treat anyway, after a long season

on the crown. But I am a little behind in terms of like, you know, just using this free time to feed myself with, you know, more images and just to get to know what people are doing. So I think that's probably now that I moved to the new house and, you know, there's a, you know, there's a question mark about the next couple months anyway. So I think this is a good moment. Eventually, honestly, just to try and put the stress aside and the anxiety related to this indefinitely on hold sort of moment that we're leaving. I mean, I had a deal closed just before the strikes started.

And it was just amazing, like finishing on the crown after almost eight years. And then, you know, managing to get another very interesting job that was supposed to start now in September. Now we don't know. So, you know, let's see. I mean, there's ways, I think there's commercials to do. There's hopefully a couple UK movies. I was going to say low-budget movies, but not necessarily, but there's a couple that I, you know, that I read recently that are not big movies,

but I think they can go on because the actors are with equity and it's a British production. So I think we'll hear about, you know, small European. productions still kind of it might be actually a very good moment for them to to to be in production because now everybody's available you can gather a very very good crew you know everybody I think is going to be keen to jump in immediately or whatever it's real right I still I to be honest I'm still hopeful that this is going to be solved by the end of beginning of September It might be a little optimistic now, I don't know, but Friday they had a meeting, so hopefully this is going to become a, the other issue about this strikes is the level of secrecy that involved in this negotiation. So you absolutely don't know if things are progressing or not progressing.

So it's a mystery. It feels like a man-made pandemic, right? Only after two years of a real, real social, you know, massive event where we all had to, you know, stop. And then right after we all had to swab and test and protect ourselves and protect the actors. So it was a huge effort. When I did Andor, so this is between seasons four and five on the Crown. So I managed to do a year on, like on Andor, I did the entire. for season. And we, I mean, it was excruciating. I mean, the fact that we had to use masks for

an entire year and testing three times a week and waiting for the tests. And then, you know, somebody goes down and disappears for a week or two. And then we did so well, right? After, you know, after was over. So it's kind of a, yeah, it's not, yeah, it's not a pleasant sort of a situation for most of us, I'd say, in the industry. Yeah, I was actually going to say you're 100% right. It does feel like pandemic 2.0, where at least we had like the practice of not working, but at the same time, it's like three years of roughly, of, you know, I was talking to Benji Bakshi who shot Strange New Worlds, the Star Trek show.

And we were talking about in the downtime, like things that we like to do, where at least you know, you start to feel burnout when you don't, as you said, feed yourself with something else, you know, if you're, if you're just constantly outputting and not taking in. And it feels like everyone was taking in so much during the pandemic that when we finally got to work, it was like, let's go. And there was just big burst of creativity. And now it's like, it can feel very, I don't know, anxiety is not really the right word, but it's definitely feels like you're being pulled back on a leash again. And we knew he was. And I think one thing is you, if you think, well, I'm going to have eight weeks off, you know, so let's plan for that. It's the beginning of the sum, you know, maybe we can even enjoy this moment. But going back to my point about the mystery involved, is it two months? Is it three months? It's six months. So it makes, it is making people very anxious and, you know, for good reasons.

I also think that we, I think we get so addicted to work that a lot of, this excess of free time is not necessarily healthy for us. I mean, we want to engage in being creative and being with our teams and, you know, producing something. I absolutely admit that I function much better when I'm working. And I think especially now, of course, this shouldn't be like a conversation about my, let's say, personal life and present. But the fact is I just bought a house.

So it's a real thing. It's a real issue to be managed, right? It's not just like, I want to work or I could be earning money and I'm not and I'm using my savings. I mean, thank, I mean, lucky me, I have savings, right? because I can probably carry on for a couple more months, etc. But like you also struggle with this lack of perspective.

I think that's a real thing, right? So, and it's been three months already, right, on the WGA strides, which is a good period of time. Anyway, so that's one thing. The other thing you said about, what I also, the fact that's, Because we were put on hold because of COVID and then this burst in creativity, like you said.

I mean, I'm also aware stories being told that after 2008, when there wasn't, you know, the strikes, there wasn't, I mean, 2009, 2010, it happened exactly the same. A massive boom in creativity, new shows. I'm actually very optimistic about 24 and 25. I think we're going to have excellent years. But like, we have to leave the presence, right? So that's all we got. It's today and then tomorrow. And so it's kind of, it's a tough one. Also, my two boys, I have two sons that also work in the industry.

So now we're all home, like thinking how long this is going to last. Should I go for a trip? Should I actually enjoy a couple weeks, you know, abroad or somewhere? So, yeah, it's a very particular moment that we all face. Also, you realize how much the U.S. and the U.K. industry are now just basically one and how much, you know, the things that happen in the U.S. affect the U.K. markets. I mean, dramatically, aside from, you know, maybe some local small movies and commercials, etc., and theater, because it's really big here, the theater scene.

and that you know carries on um but anyway i mean it's it's i think we're gonna we're gonna remember this for a long time yeah well and to your point about being optimistic um and oppenheimer is i have been absolutely loving because i saw barbie i saw oppenheimer twice and it's been so much fun to see how much fun people are having going to the theater like it you know everyone's always talking about oh the theater's gonna die and i'm like fuck And Barbee just solved that problem for everyone. That thing's going to cost a billion dollars. So, thanks.

Pop Gun Maverick, I think, showed us that people still want to go to the movies. And then you have a little disappointment when you see Indy 5, which I think, to be honest, it's kind of a, it's a wrong franchise to put your money in now, right? Because the kids, the, let's say, the age. that you want to see going to the movies, you know, let's say between 25 and 35. They barely know who Indiana Jones was. I mean, oh, my father once told me he was a cool hero.

But like, you know, trying to revive it, I think it was a, you know, kind of a wrong strategy. Of course, we, I love, you know, the idea there's another Indian movie and, you know, Harrison Ford is still there and how much the first movie, I mean, was something special. for me in my, you know,

film buff sort of of period. But anyway, and then, oh, Indy 5 is not doing well. And then Barbie comes and then, you know, yeah, I think there's, yeah, there's still a lot to be explored in this, you know, industry. And, I mean, even if you call feature films,

theatrical feature films, a niche, because that's not where the money is going to now, but there's still, it's still alive. It's still very much alive, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I worked a lot in and around hospitality for a while in my college years and a little bit after. And I've always been fascinated with the idea of like not just restaurants or anything, but curating an experience. And I think, you know, in one way theaters, you know, you've got places like Alamo Draft House or whatever where they're like, you know, nicer chairs, food service, whatever, you know, your Dolby theaters, whatever they, they again nicer chairs and stuff but um i think the the easy way just coming from like an exhibitor's point of view that i've never been an exhibit i don't know why i'm pointing at myself and saying

that uh but um is just to more curate you know better curate the theater experience not just renting a seat you know but like creating an environment in which you want to go spend kind of the day there the century city mall over here by my house um is like the nicest fucking in the world. And it's got a really, really nice AMC there. And, you know, me and my friends are always like, well, let's get there a few hours early. Let's grab a couple. There's like outside bars and stuff. So you'll like sit there, eat some sushi, have some drinks, have a good time and then walk into the theater. Like that theater going experience, in my opinion, is like where a lot of theater should be angling towards, you know, creating a full environment to go see. Because then people

want to anchor their afternoon around a movie instead of just popping in and popping out, you know? Yeah. Also, I think it was a little bit damaging this kind of a reputational myth that people created that going to a theater is very expensive because you have to pay for marking and then you have to pay $10 for popcorn and et cetera. So I think there's still a little bit that can be done so people can feel more attracted to come and, well, I'm not going to say, well, because if I could bear, I can spend just $15

on a Netflix subscription, and I have a, well, it's not the same thing. No. So you're paying, you're paying because you're paying for the experience, right? Like you say, I mean, there's nothing like Dolby surround. There's nothing like, you know, IMAX and etc. So, yeah, I mean, it is a different sort of trip. So you have to go for it and the magic of the dark room, you know, the lights go off. And it's still very magical.

I don't think one ansells the other one. I mean, I think that the only mystery now or people should be working on is how to promote smaller movies, right? Because a movie like Barbie, they spend $200 million in production and another $200 million in promotion. Probably more. Good heavens. I think it was everywhere. Probably more. So I think that's a thing now about, because the thing that we say now, you jump from, either you do a feature film for $15 million or $150 million. everything in between goes to the streamers because if you have 18 million you prefer doing 10 episodes you know 8 million each then actually doing a drama for 18 million that oh how's that

going to go right uh anyway i don't i don't really understand economics or you know how to fix i failed that class but what i do know is theaters are still alive they're still building them right So that must be a reason for this. Yeah. Yeah. I did kind of touching on the like magic of cinema and stuff, I did read that kind of Jacques Cousteau is what kind of got you into filmmaking, seeing, I suppose, in a weird way, representation of a cinematographer, someone holding a camera in that thing.

Did you, did that launch you more into the direction of documentary or did that just kind of show you that movies were made by someone and then you jumped into sort of more theatrical style feeling that's a very good question because I've done documentaries but not there was not my goal I've done it because I've worked with people very interesting people they used

to do commercials music videos and documentaries so I would do a little bit of everything but no I mean there was a kind of discovery basically I basically understood there's someone behind the camera

actually physically holding the camera was just a massive discovery because you just if you don't think i i i still think that a lot of people that watch what we do don't actually realize people don't never watch the credits so and even if they do i mean why do they need so many people right 300 people on a scroll people don't realize what's involved uh we struggle as cinematographers to explain what we do i mean you have to explain that you and the art director or the production designer are the main artistic collaborators with and for a director

but also you're not allowed to forget makeup and costume and everybody else that's sound and mixing and you know editing and etc but it's funny how it just appears on your screen you pay your subscription and you press play and it just appears to you and it's just I think honestly I think it's one of one of the things we have failed is to, because I think there's this idea

that what we do is glamorous, right? Oh, you work on the film industry. Oh, you know, are you an actor? That's the first question, right? Oh, are you an actor? No, no, no, no. I'm always behind the camera. Oh, so what do you do?

So I think, especially I can address this because when we had this monster president in Brazil for four years, Bolsonaro, and he was verbal against artists, again, verbally saying because they're all lefties because we cannot trust them.

They just want to, they want government money to do their own things, which is absolutely not true. And I think we failed. We have failed to present and show what an industry

actually is and what that, for you guys in the US, it's been called industry forever. So you've come more or less understand you have to show up at eight and then you leave at six and in the forties and fifties there was very much the case i mean you work for the studio you show up in the day you can be a grip or a electrician or a pa that's your job you're going to the industry i

mean now it's a little bit more you know uh uh less clear i mean in terms of like you know all this uh it's like a more like an octopus now right so there's many many arms and people A lot of jobs overlap now, too. Jobs overlap. But I think we failed, especially, and I felt that in Brazil, how do you confront a speech against artists, right? Because if that's the notion that artists wake up late, you know, they only go to, they only go very expensive resorts, you know, on their vacation time. they make a lot of money now they're selling alcohol

and perfume and etc so that's the image but that's red pit that's red pit isn't it that's a Jay-Z I mean it's not it's not us so but I think we failed

and in a sense that we need to tell people that there's from truck drivers to nurses to painters to carpenters to I mean it's the it's an industry

I mean there's thousands and thousands of people I mean the LA mayor said on the Friday that she's she's keen to actually be part of the negotiations you guys have no idea she was trying to explain

you have no idea what this is going to how this is going to hurt the city it's not and she got booed well it's true but it's true isn't it yeah yeah well and I think that you know

she can be booed but she's not just complaining. She's actually saying, I'm here to help. Yeah, 100%. So, yeah, I don't know her. Sorry. This is only this stuff that I read on the news. But whatever, Karen Bass, she's, she's great. But she did, I thought it was wild that she stood up there because she was also talking about those strikes. She was talking about homelessness crisis. And just everyone was booing her. And I was like, can you let the woman speak? She's trying to help. Like that. Anyway, so I think that's the one of the things. I mean, I, uh, I tried to. And I still think it's, complex to explain

what a DOP does. Oh, you deal with lights, but how, exactly, right? So, and I don't think we should actually, I mean, a little bit of mystery, it's good, you know, because, you know, you feel like a magician, you feel like you hold some sort of a knowledge

that, you know, it's in your hands and in your mind. I mean, it was much more like that when we used to shoot on film, because then you're, you're the only one that can actually appreciate a sharp and clean image through your viewfinder. I mean, you're the first viewer of every film you do, right? So it's a huge privilege. I think now it's a little bit more organic in a way.

I mean, those big monitors on set. So, I mean, it's a little bit more democratic, but still, I think it's, yeah. Yeah, well, you touched on a few things there. One, I've often had to explain to people who say, like, oh, the cinematography in that movie was great and I always go, no, the production design was great. The cinematographer was pretty chill on that film. The production

designers always get, or a cinematographers always get credit for what the production designers did. And then I have to explain what they... And funny enough, and funny enough, if you mentioned the born trilogy, for instance, because it's handheld and the camera has

an attitude, you know, it's almost like a character in a way. Then people realize, Oh, that's what you do. You know, but again, like you say, there's no much lighting on the Born trilogy. Right. It's much more about choreography and blocking and long lenses and editing and rhythm. But it's funny how if you grab a camera on your shoulder and then people see your work,

if you try to be discreet, you know, and just be a storyteller and just help the story. I mean, it's, I mean, I can contradict myself immediately as well. I'm great at that. My intention when we started on the ground, I always tried to be invisible. Like, I mean, there's enough visual information in costume, locations, period, hair and makeup and furniture and period cars and, you know, and the history involved. And the dialogue, so you're learning. something with the show. So I remember us saying, we don't want, we don't want to be this.

We don't want to do this in a glamour, a glamorous sort of way. I mean, no fake backlights, no, you know, no rim, you know, unjustified, unjustified backlights, whatever. And no, no, shouldn't be glossy. I mean, we started in the 50s where London and even the like the royal family's properties were kind of run down. So there's no reason to actually go over Glambrus

for the first season, especially, right? Right. But then, you know, we got all the accolades and we got even trying to be discreet and just not showing, you know, not showing off, let's say. I mean, the appreciation, you know, the industry appreciation for the crown

and the visuals. And, you know, it's, I am still kind of, kind of surprised every time I think that it's the fifth season and it's my fifth nomination. So I really never thought this was going to happen. Honestly, I honestly didn't. No, I get to, yeah. Especially season five, and I must be honest,

because I was doing Andor, and I only had time. I almost couldn't do season five. But then we managed, because I love the team and we've been together for many, many years. they managed so the solution was because I knew

the director I was going to work with the solution was shrinking my prep so okay we wait for you but we cannot

push the block right so that means you're going to have less preft than usual and I said I'm in it's fine I'm in

so I only did two episodes I did Mumu and I did the finale right the last episode on season 5 and that was a much shorter

sort of commitment for me if I, especially if I compare to season 6 that I did right after, it took me a year to to do season 6, two blocks on season 6, it took me a year. The other one was just like

three months, right? I started in September, it took me to December. So it was really good. So I was not, you know, I was just I was happy that I was able to rejoin the team. But like, you know, maybe now there's opportunities for other DOPs that, you know, also did the crowd to get nominated or get more

attention, et cetera. And I'll come back for season six. But for some reason, Mu Mu is the one that people remember, you know, and it's kind of a spin-off. And it's very, yeah, it's a very specific episode. Yeah. Well, I mean, it does go to show that you, what you are doing is not only, let's say good but that people really identify with your style

because that actually brings up something that I kind of wanted to talk about which was between the Crown and Andor there is kind of a similar like your visual style is apparent

it's not like some DPs are really good at really morping what they do some DPs you know we use David Fincher's an example all the time

because he's easy to point at because, you know, even between DPs, he's got that thing he does. But, you know, you've got, I guess technically not the future, but futuristic space sci-fi versus literal the past. And they both have a very similar visual style. And I was wondering if you could speak to that sophisticated realism, as I've heard you call it, and how you approach that. Because I heard on the crown, you know, you're always lighting from the outside using practicals. You know, in the jail set of and or any of those interiors for the planet, are you doing the exact same thing? Are you building lights into the set in the more futuristic ones versus just lamps and stuff

for the crown? How are you bridging that? Well, I'd say that my, you're right. You're absolutely right. The approach was similar. I mean, I was, I mean, literally jumping when I got the offer, you know, to do Andor. And, and I was even happier when I realized it was not going to be on the Mandalorium sort of realm. Right.

It was more like, you know, Rogue One sort of style. That is much more realistic, much more touchable and, you know, and you feel the dust and you, there's a lot of sweat. You know, it's not a perfect world. It's like, you know, it's very, it's really, it's very realistic, yeah. I've told everyone like even if you don't like Star Wars you should watch Andor because it's not

it doesn't really feel like a star in such a way it doesn't feel like a Star Wars show it just feels like an amazing drama and I've been screaming ever since it came a bunch of the DPs I interviewed after that came out

they were like can you ask Adriano this for me and then we kept reschedule it but yeah it touched a lot of DP hearts out of that way but but and then also of course there's the color the color palette that is very different

you know, on Andor and the crown that I had to adjust a little bit to, not only the way I shot it, also the way I graded, of course, you know, in the end. But whenever there's a window, whenever there's an opportunity for a realistic approach,

that's going to be my starting point. The dialogue between the GOP and the production designer is absolutely strong and vital on both shows. But with something like Andor, you have to be, I had to be absolutely involved on the actual set design because I really wanted to talk about, you know, building sources and especially like sets like the prison.

There's no windows. I want to rely on the practicals that are in vision, that are still believable and used and dirty and customized and whatever this is, of course, part of the, designer's job but also you know in terms of like approaching it realistically it's not just where the sources are but how do they look i mean do they look believable or you know we need more diffusion or we need more dirt or we need to age them a little bit more um like because on star wars it's it's it's it's a it's like you said it's not futuristic it's very weird because

it's everything everything is used on an on the set, everything. Even a brand new set, you have a team that comes and do scratches, you know, and step on the wall just to, you know, just to make them more used, more believable. And the comparison they all make between Star Wars and Star Trek, this is not Star Trek. This is Star Wars. This is Star Wars. And we have to remember, this is a galaxy far, far away, a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. So it's very hard for us to understand that

it is period. Russianly long in the past. But that's the magic of George Lucas, isn't it? Who would think something like that? So you're actually not looking forward, you're looking backwards to something. Also, there's no Earth

on Star Wars. So they never mention Earth. Nobody's coming from Earth ever. So this is again in a galaxy far, far, far away without any contact with our history. It's really, really specific. But I was, I felt very lucky because we, maybe because of the pandemic and because of,

we are in a way a prequel for Roe 1, the approach was much more. Basically, we shot Andor on locations. Right. So everything was built. Every little, every set you see. Yeah, that was land. That's set as nuts.

the town or whatever that is. Fair easy. Fair. Yeah, yeah, fair. Moe and Leo is one of the Disney's VFX supervisor, Lucasfilm Disney VFX supervisor. That was involved on Rogue One, like a proper guru. I remember we actually went to that set when it was still being built.

And he said, I've never seen anything as big as this for Rogue One or for any other show. This is the biggest set I've ever seen. And everything, the prison, like you mentioned, you know, and the scale of that prison and the scale of the episodes, you know, that you're actually following casting when he's in the prison and all the intercats with Mon Motha and, you know, and all the other characters and Luther and it's so, so, so rich.

But yes, you're right. I mean, the approach is realistic. I mean, I want to be myself, I want to be able to believe it. You know, I don't want to just lights coming from the, you know, the ceiling, right? Yeah. So, what was that? What was the, what was the, what was the course? I think where this was Peter Jackson.

I think Peter Jackson's DOP that someone, because it's pure fantasy, right, the Lord of the Rings. And I think there was a situation where someone asked him about where's that light coming from. Did you know about this? I quoted it last episode. same place as the music. Yeah, thank you for giving me context of that because I've been quoting that for a minute

and I can't remember where I heard it but I think you're 100% right. It was Lord of the Rings. Where's that a lie coming from? Well, same place as the music. And I, yeah, so I mean, I also want to be able to allow myself to go a little bit more onto

the kind of a magic realism whenever it's possible. So when you work with, even on the crown, when you work with Stephen Audrey, he always brings a little bit more magic into whatever he does.

So he actually won an Emmy on season two for his part of Familiar episode that I shot, but funnily enough, I actually picked another one to submit was Fairy Tale, another one that I absolutely love.

But that, no, sorry, sorry, fairytale was season four, was Barrow, on season two and then he did a part of family so if you remember he lost he,

Phinnett loses his sister on a plane accident and then he dreams about you know kind of seeing her and he walks

into the crash and then he sees her actually wide, you know, dead there and that was not on the script

I mean that was dodgy insisting with Peter Morgan just to be to bring a little bit more horror and a little bit of more magic realism

to even to a show like The Crown. And I love whenever that happens, you know, that gives you a little moment, you know, two minutes on screen that you can just go off your route a little bit and then come back. But just, oh, there's a little detour here that's going to take me back to the same road.

But, you know, let's just enjoy this moment. And Doodry is brilliant. no spoils but now for the finale finale the last episode we did for season six there's a little bit you know of his magic again so I really hope that people appreciate it's such it's a proper finale you know it's longer than the other episode that they normally are that's the only spoil I did you know something that'll be kind of illustrative because I try to make this podcast somewhat educational Um, but I think something that'll be kind of illustrative to the style of lighting that you do would be two similar scenes. So in the crown, obviously, you've got a lot of times there are, um, sort of darkish rooms lit from outside, uh, with practicals and maybe some, uh, some, uh, atmosphere, you know, I know you talked about using like the glimmer glass and the, and the smoke and stuff. Um, and obviously having a dark room is much nicer than say,

that jail set from Andor where everything is white and lit. So, but still a lot of people in a room having a conversation around a table. So how are you building contrast into your image and how are you approaching, say, close ups or maybe a shot of three people or whatever in either set, one where you've got contrast built into the set and you need to kind of light a little more, maybe add some light versus and or where you need to remove light. Well, if you want to use the main prison, you know, the factory level, as we call, the white, the super white and big room. So every individual strip of light that you see on the walls are individually controlled, right?

Like astrotubes or panels. Yeah, LEDs and a stereotubes, but individually. So whatever it's not in shot is off. So there's a lot of turning there's a lot of turning on and off lights.

You know, I'm just going to move 10 degrees to the left. Don't want that source anymore. I mean, there's a lot of balance still because it's a white room. So then I think initially I was checking.

Well, first of all, I don't want to add too much contrast because now we know where we are and we know this is a white room, right? Right. I want to shape the faces a little bit better. So I'll cancel.

I'll switch off all the lights that are not in shot and I'll bring a little bit of a nag, but also not too close to the faces because otherwise it turns into like a different show. So you have to... It doesn't look natural. It doesn't look natural. So it's...

I think on a show like the under was very much about making sure that I had control on every single individual source. so I don't have to compromise. Just adding to your question or answer or to my answer, there was also the challenge of trying to make that place look not always the same. So, you know, there's the drill.

There's, you know, and at 10, when the lights, the power goes off, you know, and then it changes and we had to create something that looks like emergency lights. So, and then the lights come back on again. So there was a dramatic light curve on F10. I mean, it was really demanding in terms of programming all the lights and even kind of, you know, trying to bring all creative people to actually approve because it could be orange, could be green, could be red. What is an emergency light situation on this set?

So there was a lot of interesting creative conversations about tone and color palette and et cetera. So all fascinating. For ferrics, for instance, contrast was much more welcome. So, you know, you're shooting exteriors. Eventually it's a sunny day, which is, I mean, in that case, was really welcome anyway.

But, you know, now I have more freedom in a way to either bounce or bring a little bit more nag or even diffuse my sunlight when possible or, you know, or even bring a source to add a little bit of a bit of a bit of a bad. backlight for continuity because we started the scene and it was sunny and now it's not sunny anymore. So it's, let's say, a little bit more conventional filmmaking. And I'd say EPS 8, 9 and 10, there were much more technical and required much more planning than the crown usually

does. You know, the crown is also in terms of how you prep for a show like Andor and how you prep for a show like The Crown. The Crown, you actually, you have everything in your hands. You can go to a location. You can bring your director and discuss a three shot. So we're going to have these three characters here, how to position them. I mean, do you want them close to the window? We're going to far from the window.

So you have opportunities to almost like envision what is actually going to happen on your shoot day. So you come not with like preconcognition. conceived ideas, but you know the room, you know where your sources are, and you know your director and how to deal with his taste and his choreography and et cetera. So you're a collaborator on, like, working with pieces that you're so familiar with, that it's, it feels a little, it's not like, I'm not going to say it's, you'll find your comfort zone, because it's a massive show, like every day on the crown is, you know, it's always kind of massive and challenging anyway. But for me, I'm not going to lie

and say, I mean, there was a progression. I mean, season one, I was anxious, absolutely anxious every single day. Am I doing well? I mean, are they liking this? I mean, you know, everybody was new to me. London was new to me. Everything was new. Every single location

was like, wow, this is massive and etc. So all this awe feeling was, I mean, I'm never going to forget it. And then there's a progression where you know that your crew much, much better. Dialogue is much, you know, efficient and fast. And then you get, and then I jumped straight from season four, three months off because of COVID, and then jump straight to Andor, and nothing existed.

No, no sets, no costume, no locations, nothing. And, well, can I, can I try the goggles? Can I just go for a virtual sort of a, uh, uh, scout well not yet we're still we're still building them we're still designing the set so it was crazy i mean you know there's a this massive truck coming in your direction with you know principal photography you know okay this is a long rat but it's coming right so when am i going to get to see a set and to be able to bring my gaffer and discuss you know lighting and i mean the first two months prepping for Andor was like, what, how is this going to happen?

You know, because you can have 10 meetings every single day. You can read the script 50 times with your director and try storyboards and let's have the storyboard artist. Storyboard artist, what is it going to draw? I mean, you have to imagine a set, right? Or try to storyboard it just for dialogues and or eventually, I mean, we had to do extensive storyboard for action scenes because of the effects, et cetera.

But that only happened much later during Pratt when we actually could go to Ferrex and, you know, photo board, you know, a set that was still being painted and et cetera. But that Pratt was like something, but it's such, you learn so much when you do this. And there was another reason

that why I was so fascinated by doing something like, because it's, you know, now I feel that I kind of can navigate, you know, these, you know, could be period, could be contemporary, could be sci-fi or, it's funny, it was really funny. And it's funny enough we did on the Crown season, that's season three, that we did the episode with the astronauts coming to London and, you know, the Prince Philip fascination for, you know, the moon exploring and and uh you know it was amazing and then suddenly i'm doing something you know in space yeah i did want to ask uh because i'm noticing more than where i was

having this conversation uh online with someone about camera choices in in filmmaking and it kind of goes back to what you were saying about there needs to be a little bit of magic still but I think opening up the floor and letting people know what we do is important, because on the one hand, it's good so that they know there's real people working on it. But then on the other hand, they feel like they know what they're talking about. And then this whole discourse pops up about, you know, like with Op and I'm like, there's no VFX. And it's like, oh, there was a little bit, you know, like off. Yeah. Yeah.

But all that to say, that was a huge tangent. What makes you choose the Venice to shoot all of these things? Is it, is that your choice? Is it just something you're comfortable with? Because, you know, like for the Crown, for instance, one could argue like, oh, we should shoot film because it's period, you know? Well, I think film was never actually considered, but I was. I bet not, but I was coming. What was it?

I think burnt. Oh my God, my memory. Burnt that I shot in 2014 just before I started. on the ground, it was my first feature on digital cameras. And I shot it on Alexa. It was the Alexa XT, if I remember well. So I've been always kind of an Ari person, even cameras. I mean, I remember when I shot the company you keep in Canada and then I shot August Osage County fascination by using Panavision cameras and, you know, how cool they were and the Primo lenses and et cetera, et cetera. I grew up in Brazil

we had Ari cameras and Aiton cameras mainly and then Europe as well Ari's and Aitans and etes and etes and then Panavision here is really strong so you can shoot with PV cameras you can but anyway I had my first experience or shooting a feature film

on digital cameras I really liked the texture I really liked you know the look of the movie and etc and then the crown you know happens to me and I So let's move to London and let's talk, you know, let's discuss technicalities because now the studios it's a, it's a digital platform. So they must have something to say, right, about, you know,

the workflow and et cetera. And they did. So they were absolutely from day one, they said, you can choose your camera, but you're going to have to shoot it in this in 4K. It needs to be 4K beginning to end. Capture in 4K. And I remember like, oh, I struggled a little bit. I said, look, let's test the red camera that was available. I don't remember which was Dragon, probably. Then the Sony F-55 and the Alexa. I remember that I put those three together because I was still hopeful to be able to go back to Netflix and say,

it's good enough. it really is good enough and you can upress it if you want and you'll be fine. No no chance and I I mean now I can probably change my mind I haven't tried the red

cameras for a few years now I know how much more you know evolved they are but I didn't like the red I didn't like the grain the noise yeah also I sometimes I feel they're really really a little too sharp

for my taste interesting color separation a little bit more specific in terms of color separation than the other two cameras but like super video like it just felt to me it felt like a video camera so cannot use the Alexa because it's not 4K

so let's do the 55s and so I did the first two seasons on the 55s and cook pancreas and worked out well I have this amazing colorist that has been with me since season one

ESA show and we've been working together like on the lot and you know the deset colors what kind of what kind of treatment we can add in post

but there's actually not much it's much more it's more we always deal more with density and saturation more than anything else yeah

yeah so I shot seasons one two on 55s and cook bankers. Season three, there was always the intention, you probably heard this before, I actually had this idea in mind

that whenever the cast changes, I'll change the glass. So then I couldn't change the camera body for season three, but I moved to the super speeds, Zey's superspeeds. Then the venices came out during the season

and I went back to my producers and said, there's a massive upgrades that we need to change bodies well i don't think we can financially because we ever we have to we had two units every unit got four bodies so i don't think i can i don't think even a show like the ground can afford just changing eight bodies at once so if you're happy to carry on with three bodies per unit maybe uh so i did say i said no let's not compromise but let's please budget this for four right so we must then go do season three with the 55 and then we and then we move to

the venices on season three still on super speeds so uh consistent consistency in terms of lenses and cast and then we on seasons five and six we kept the venices and move to the cook s force right two seasons of the s fours now yeah Do you notice that the Venice body or sensor give you anything that you're missing in other cameras, or is that more just like something you're comfortable with? I don't, well, basically, I don't think I have to compromise in any way because I'm using Venice. It's all like, oh, but it's not the Ari. Oh, for the record, I love the Venice.

I think, no, no. And I love the ARI cameras. And I love the ARI cameras. And I think they're right there. They're big. They're big. But now I'm a little bit more familiar with, you know, the Venice and especially the Venice too. That is even more film friendly, user friendly. You know, the Rialto mode is absolutely genius. And it's a very good equipment to work with. And for the shows I have, have done. I don't really think, I mean, the last season's on the ground, I honestly don't think that if I had done them on Ari cameras, I don't think they would look different. I think this thing we found, I mean, ASA, myself, my DIT, I mean, they kind of, I think, but I'm actually happy to, whatever I do next, to actually maybe try their ARIs again and then, you know, feel that same, ah, excitement for, you know, trying something that is new. I haven't tried the the Alexa 35 or even the 65 yet.

So there's a lot. I love to use 65. Yeah. There's a lot to learn. And I'm keen to. Yeah. I, uh, so I've got like a full, I got a C 500 and, you know, obviously shot plenty of Super 35.

And, and before 35 and Full Frame, I've always been like, yeah, I like full, you know, the physical, not the 4Kness or anything or the depth of feel that everyone obsesses about. But the physical resolution of the sensor does give the image more softer tonality that I like. but then I got this Fuji film medium format stills camera and I'm like oh god because I shoot medium format film too and just a massive ass sensor really does look really nice like again not the depth of field just the tonality of the image is just so um tactile it's just I love it so much and now I've turned into a sense of nerve just recently one of my focus pullers maybe that's the same camera you You mean the 4G, large, digital large format.

Yeah, the GFX. It's out of this world. Oh, isn't it? It is. It is. I mean, it's just, he just took, I mean, we were just having lunch. And I just, I was so surprised when I saw the camera. And he took a picture of me, like, just looking surprised.

And when he showed me, I mean, it's just like the best portrait ever. Yeah. When I, when we hop off this call, I'll DM you on Instagram, some portraits. just took my friend Ian, I'm like, I did minimal editing. It's literally just like balancing some light because I only had one, you know, flash. And it just, it just comes out. It's so good. So now I'm being into big sensors. You know, Alexa 35 is great. But if they use the Alev 4 sensor to make a 65 or an LF, but like, ugh, not that I'm ever on the set. Imagine, imagine if Fuji decides to to make a film camera.

So I am acquaintances with the Fuji team. And it's one of the things that I've always been in their ear about is like, let me consult on a Fuji film cinema camera because I think they would destroy. I think they would do so well. And they could have a little film simulations in there for people who want to do that maybe. You know, Flog 2 is an amazing gamma curve, really protects the highlights really well. And obviously, you know, their color science is out of this world. So that is something.

If I can get that, I'll say that you're all so interested. Maybe they'll pay us. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I did want to talk. I had heard you mentioned a few times in a few interviews about kind of being really fastidious about eye lights, catch lights. And I was wondering if you could share, because I am too, I am constantly, doesn't matter the movie. I almost don't know what people look like.

I just know what their eye looks like because I'm just constantly dialed in. I was wondering if you could give me some of the secrets of a good catch light and how it to not like affect the scene as well. Well, you know what? Only to be really honest with you, usually my eye light is usually

it's actually my key light. So try to position my key light so I don't actually have to add a specific eye light. But every time I, every time I do this or every time I try to actually especially let's say

for a dark scene I think I did that a little bit on an door just just a data light it's just a data light at 10% so you actually it's more a reflection that you actually see in the eye than a source so you're just seeing that dot

just behind camera on the other side on the dark side of camera let's say all the or the or the character just to add a little bit of a sparkle. That is funny because that requires time. And sometimes we don't have that specific time just to add a little bit of a. On the crown, for instance,

I think it's very rare that the eye light is not the key light or a window or something that is as a big part of my lighting plan in a way. I mean, it's very rare. I mean, on burnt, I remember, I remember adding a couple, you know, just sparkles. But I try to avoid that in a way. I try always to convince my director to even like twist the actor a little bit

or talk direct them to the actor. You know, if you just, you don't need to move your face, but move your body. So you know that naturally they're going to offer a little bit more of that source. And it's, I think it's a constant game of adjusting and adjusting and adjusting a little bit more. So it doesn't get too flat or frontal, but you still get that. Also, for instance, what, on now on season six, I shot three episodes for Christian, a German director that we had on previous seasons on the Crown, but he used to work with a German DOP.

So it was my first opportunity to actually work with him. And what directors bring in terms of, of course, their own knowledge and taste. So what is it a profile, right, for you? So is it one eye? So profile is a sharp profile or I only see one eye. For Christian, no, he wants to see two eyes. Oh, that's not a profile, Christian.

But what if the sparkle is only on the far eye and not on the inside, right? That's another challenge. How do you add an eye light? You like the lighting and you like the shape on the face. but you're missing something on the dark side. It could be a bounceboard.

It could be just something. So you don't actually, it's not shiny and sparky, but you reveal the eye. So you just lift the blacks a little bit. So you see it's there, right? But I must confess, I don't, I've never been a technical DOP. I mean, I don't, I know what the lens offer me.

I don't know how they're made, right? I know what my lights can offer me and how much they progressed or they have progressed since season one for instance if I compare I probably had 10, 15% of my sources were LED sources on season one now it's probably 80% of them

this is like in seven years right so I know what they offer me in terms of speed and color and color and and in 10 and output and etc. Because I try them a lot. So when something new comes, I always

go to the warehouses and we try them and we test them or even like on, you know, just on a testing week on you know, whatever we are in prep for. But there's a lot of testing. So I get more familiarized with my, whatever, new sources, what the market has to offer.

Like, you know, I, and also this thing about the eye is always like, I'm missing something, you know? And also it's an ongoing conversation because it really depends on, again, I insist, your director's taste, or even the genre. I mean, do we want to see the eyes or do we want to hide the eyes now?

So that's a constant sort of conversation. Should we, no, this is actually a good moment not to see, you know, a sparkle and, you know, let's bet on sadness and, you know, something. a little bit moodyer. So it's, it's always in, I never, again and again, lucky me.

I had never, not saying that I don't want to do it, but I had, I never done a movie that was entirely storyboarded. Right. Not only you know what you're doing, but you can really think ahead. You can actually come back home after a shooting day, go back to your storyboard and actually think, give you a Gaffer a call. Well, tomorrow is that.

that we plan to do this and this and this. Even a big show like The Crown and even under, an actual shooting day is a much more organic thing. You know, you gather your actors, you do a first rehearsal, you bring your camera operators, you talk to your director, so do you want to start on a wide shot, or you want to start on midshots? So it's a constant sort of exercise of, you know,

prioritizing and, you know, and compromising and prioritizing and compromising. So that's the way we play the game, actually. I mean, I'm sure that I would jump in to whatever feature does if I ever have the chance. But then it's a different game, isn't it? It's his game, and you have to somehow accommodate and be a strong collaborator,

but within his visual realm, right, and preparation, because he preps a lot. it himself, right? Sure. I know you have a hard out, so I'll let you go here soon, but I did want to ask, I have actually a bunch more question, but we'll have to have you back on sometime soon. Pleasure. Anytime. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's been a lot of fun. But I did want to ask, I saw that in 2009, you won a cinematography award, right, for Sinombre at Sundance. And I wanted to know what your position is, about 14 years later, about the importance of festivals because I feel like there's a lot of young filmmakers who I've seen a lot of

conversations kind of poo-pooing festivals because maybe they've seen elitist or they're not accessible or whatever but on the other hand all of my friends who have advanced in the film industry usually comes off the back of festivals and I was kind of wondering what your position was that you know are they as valuable you think today as they were in 2009, has something changed between the two? Well, there were incredible. Sundance was incredibly valuable, valuable to me. Sin Nambri was my first international project ever.

It took us straight to Sundance and we won, Carrie won his award. I won mine. During post-production, I actually did Sing Nombri without an agent. I didn't have an agent when I shot scene on November. So I got an agent because we had a friend, a friend in common. Then we both went to Sundance when the movie was, you know, actually went for the premiere. I had to go back to Michigan when I was shooting a movie in Michigan

to get a phone call the following Saturday saying, you won, you won't, you won't. I wasn't there. I mean, anyway, so stories to tell. I, I'm not so sure about. I'm not sure if I have enough knowledge to actually have an opinion. I think a festival like Sundance can really benefit. You can really benefit it from being there, from meeting people,

even for having a short movie, you know, in exhibition, you know, being shown and, you know, the contacts you make, the people you get to know. So I really think it's an amazing sort of environment, especially Sundance. I'm not so sure about Ken or Berlin or whatever they seem to belong to a specific group of people but I you know yeah but I I've never been there

so I think anything I say can sound you know yeah so I don't have a strong opinion I think I what I see is the Emmys getting and stronger and stronger in comparison to the Oscars for instance now you have Merrill Strip running for an Emmy, right? Nicole Kidman running for an Emmy. And so I think the way the now people value the Emmys, I mean, it was really amazing and how much I have benefited from, I mean, even being here now with you guys and you know how much it changed my career and the way people see my career, how much more you can actually think about driving your career in different directions,

depending on the attention the industry is giving you. So I really wanted to do something different from the Crown because it was relevant from my CV, relevant from my future. I mean, who knew that I was going to get hired to do Star Wars coming from the Crown? But, you know, because of the Emmys and because the people who get to know the crown is really, really big,

it's whatever, 10 million per episode. So they know they're used to doing big stuff, dealing with big problems. Right. That is an interesting thing as well. But that is when you, whatever, when you get to do, you know, the good stuff and the big stuff, let's say. But I think festivals are, I mean, fundamental, absolutely fundamental. We had, was it, Dodry actually now on his last episode.

His personal assistant was young film maker. and like he showed me his short movie that is now I think he's actually showing this Friday but anyway it's the entire life of this short movie I mean this short movie has been seen in like 10 or more than 10 festivals and might not happen the next morning for you but like you know it's absolutely relevant

I think it's vital I think people should never give up trying to show your first movies or short movies on festivals. You know, the Spirit Awards and the Sundance. I mean, they're really very welcoming. I had the most amazing experience last year because they invited me in June to go and be an advisor for the director's lab at Sundance. It was, I think, the best thing I did in my life, honestly.

What a week with these young filmmakers. all hungry, you know, for information and feedback and your knowledge. They want to sit with you by lunch and they want to ask you. It's just amazing. I'm fascinated. I have a good relationship here with the NFTS, the National Film and Television School, where I, you know, there has been a couple of Q&As. They just did, just recently invited me to do a master class there.

I might actually interview Seamus Marghervey on the 19th now on a kind of a Q&A, they ask me. So I'm very much, you know, there's this thing about, you know, just, how can I say this? Helping the youngsters to feel more confident. And this is something I do frequently.

I mean, talk to like a, you know, let's say a younger generation. Yeah. I really, really enjoy doing that. And with that, we had to let Adriano go mostly because my internet died. So thank you so much for watching. As always, Frame and Reference is produced by me, Kenny McMillan,

and supported by Pro Video Coalition and viewers like you. So if you'd like to support the podcast, you can go to buy me a coffee.com slash frame and ref pod. And we really appreciate the support. So that's all for now. We'll see you next week. Thank you.