Frame & Reference Podcast - 113: "The Chosen" DP Petros Antoniadis

Episode Date: October 8, 2023

This week we're joined by the very talented Petros Antoniadis! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow F&R on all your favorite social platforms!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 113 with Petros Antonidas, DP of The Chosen. Enjoy. It's been how are you uh you're on the east coast right now no right now today just came back from greece i'm in LA oh okay i'm in the west gotcha yeah nice yeah are you where are you located uh Santa Monica oh fantastic westwood here just an oh no yeah yeah dude the uh you you've come back right when the weather started to be a little more normal because it was like hot as hell for a long time yeah i heard and i have to say that in greece was not

any better. I mean, we were facing hundred and tens all the time and humidity. And, you know, I mean, it's a beautiful country, but when you give those circumstances in, then, you know, it was a little bit tough. That's, yeah, it was beautiful. I actually went to Greece for a high school trip of all things. So this would have been like 2007, 2006, 2007. And it was a lot of fun. It was definitely, you know, I had never left the country until then. And it was that, it was that, was Greece and Italy separate times. And, uh, but Greece at the time, everything was like, there was a lot of protests, you know, like kind of like union stuff where it was like, they'd be like, oh, there's a lot of trash

on the ground, but that's because the trash guys are on strike. And then we get to the hotel and they were like, oh, yeah, there's no power at the hotel because the power guys are on strike. And we were like, all right, well, yeah, and all that's, that's, uh, that's something that's constantly happening in Greece. So it doesn't give many, uh, you know, uh, feedback on when you were precisely, but. It happens all the time. Yeah, it's a situation. But, you know, nevertheless, do you remember which places you visit in Greece? I mean, Athens, but did you do any islands?

Yeah, we were in, we went to an island where it was like all pistachios, big pistachio island, like, hey, you know, the name of it. Okay, cool. Yeah, that place was gorgeous. And they, you know, the food obviously was good. Food everywhere was good. But, uh, yeah, Athens, the, that island, um, we went to see like the, where they light the, the, Olympic torch with that bowl, you know, that is reflected. So that was all pretty cool. Yeah, again, I was 15 or so, 16, so that was 16 years ago, 17 years ago. So foggy memory of it, but.

It's time to go back and create some new memories. Right? Yeah. My friend went there for his, what's it called after you get married? His honeymoon, he went there and he, you know, all those photos were gorgeous. I remember being there, speaking, you know, I saw that you grew up painting and stuff. And I remember going there and being flabbergasted that you could just go to, like, a toy store and buy spray paint. Because there would, I have some photos of the most gorgeous.

I mean, the placement wasn't really ideal, but the most gorgeous, like, graffiti murals. There's like art just everywhere, even if it's not quite, you know, oh, this building's 2,000 years old. But that's a really cool piece of art. Maybe shouldn't have, maybe to the left a little bit, but, you know. Yes, absolutely. You know, the urban art in Greece is quite spectacular, but it's also a form of protest. So you know, wherever they decide to place it, it's, you know, for a specific reason, protest as well besides doing art.

So that's why you can see that, you know, the center of Athens, for example, is bombarded with graffiti all over. Some of them aren't very nice. Some of them would need some work. It's just protest. But anyway, it's beautiful, like me. Yeah. No, I agree. And specifically, I wanted to ask, I assume you don't do a spray paint art, but I had seen that you grew up as a painter initially before getting into camera work. And I've always wanted to talk, I think I've only talked to like one other person who started in painting. Because, you know, there's all people always say like, oh, you know, cinematography is painting with light. And I think that phrase can be confusing to people who, like, you can't use that phrase to explain your job to someone who doesn't know what cinematography. is because I think it makes sense now, but even a few years ago, I'm like, I don't really get,

if anything, it's painting with shadow, with digital. But what sort of skills did you bring from painting to cinematography? Was that like, you know, composition mostly, obviously, lighting probably a part of it. But, you know, as a painter, you're the production designer too and stuff. So, yeah, well, you know, I, I cannot consider myself a painter per se, because, you know, that's one of the first skills that I developed in a very young age because of my grandfather, who was a painter and a photographer. So he introduced me from a very young age into art, into pictures, into all of that. So it was mostly his influence, along with the intuition that I had towards art, that made me paint, mostly draw, to be honest with you, and with colors later.

but that was my very, very early years. So, you know, it's mostly instinct of, you know, what is being created there, I think, that you later bring in another artwork. I was blessed enough to decide that I wanted to become a cameraman at the age of 10. So the previous years, I was painting quite a bit and the years after.

but you know I I didn't very I don't have a collective memory of those steps because they were so young that you know it was just you know a flow I went with the flow and I just you know decided one day that I'm going to become a camera room sure yeah yeah I think it was kind of the same for me I remember my parents having like a home video camera and even as a younger child like six seven eight you know just like grabbing it from them being very interested in documenting at least. I don't know if I ever really got a creative eye until much later. But sounds like you kind of had the creative eye built in and didn't have the tools until later. Well, might be this or might be the fact that what really drew me into filmmaking

and becoming a camera one was the big cameras that I would say that somehow were majestic to me. I mean, first of all, they were not very available to me. I could not just go and grab a professional broadcasting or cinema camera. And the fact they were not available made them even more appealing to me at that age.

But I would go, I remember, you know, we had posters in my home city that I would say that there was a television station affiliated with the event. So I would go, I didn't care about the event to those cameras and the tripods and all these wiring and the monitors

and how they were doing this. I mean, I was super fascinated by that. So I think that what drew me in was the tools that I didn't help. I mean, you know, that I really wanted to touch that. And it was sometimes close enough, but untouchable. And yeah, so I don't know if I first built, you know, the composition and, you know, the artistic side. and then just found the tools.

I think that the tools made it just appealing that I had to be touching them. So I was drawn to that. I mean, in the beginning, to be honest with you, when I first got my first camera, which was a Panasonic VHS, you know, a very, the old one was older than me. But it was big, and that was appealing.

I don't think I really cared about what I was shooting, as long as I was shooting, as long as I had in my shoulder, and I was going around and pretend, to, you know, do interviews or whatever. So, yeah, I mean, it was the tools that drew me in, I think. Do you still find yourself now, now more than ever, you know, obviously back in, because we're about the same age, like back in 08 to 12, nothing.

I mean, things still weren't accessible. You had a DVX. We've talked about this a lot on this podcast, but that was about it. And then now there's just so much gear in all that, you know, there's crazy new tripods that people are reinventing like, you know, screw. roos. Do you still find yourself kind of nerding out about equipment? Or is that kind of waned over the years? I think that for the first time in my life, I realized during this in a year, so 2023, that I went there that I was not. Oh, Seneca here at L.A. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was not paying attention to nothing

that was surrounding me. I was mostly paying attention to meet people, to, you know, shake some hands, you know, start up some conversations and all that. Because I think that I came to realize that, you know, tools are great, of course. And I love that, you know, their companies that try to help our vision become even more accessible. However, I think that, you know, you have to know what's out there. But I mean, I have a great gufford, Joel Gill, who, you know, he would, whatever we're doing something, he will bring something new on board that I would never, you know, asked for, and then we would try it out and play it out.

And I think that, you know, the majority of how I tend to touch new tools is through that. And of course, through research. So whenever I need something for a specific thing, I'm going to look. look into it. So I'm not so much drawn into the tools anymore. Like, you know, the first time that I went to see a year, for example, wow, that's Disneyland here. Not anymore. Now it's Disneyland for connections and people. I'm telling you, so I went as well. I write for this website called Pro Video Coalition and they had me, you know, doing standard, figure out what people are offering, that kind of thing.

And not only did I also not really care about what I was, I mean, like, I mean, like, Like when I was talking to the person, I'm confident I did good journalism, but afterwards, I was just, you know, didn't really care. And then everyone I've spoken to since who was there, all the DPs, even people who just, well, maybe not the people who just go there to look at gear because obviously, but all the DPs, you know, on this podcast and otherwise all said they, they might as well have just been empty with everyone walking around because no one was looking at like new cameras, new lights. Yeah, they're all great. You know, everyone's got a new thing. But it would, you'd look at it and go, okay, and then move on and go grab a beer. go see who you know you know exactly exactly and i think that's uh you know the beauty of this event i mean okay it's great to be surrounded by uh the new and hot but nowadays you know technology

progressing in the the speed of light so that even if you're really trying your best to keep out to keep up with what's out there and available i i don't think that you can so you know it's it's uh you know i was having a conversation last night with a great friend of mine and we're talking about AI and you know the new technology and how new technology is you know affecting our industry and all the industries and how you know the world would not look alike in you know a decade or so and you know we're concerned and we're saying you know you cannot do this you know AI does it better than you and then this AI does it better than you and then he stopped for seconds and he says you know what AI cannot replace what please tell me there is something out there and he said human connection

I mean, this is irreplaceable, at least for the time being. So because it's in the imperfections, that, you know, AI will always be perfect. But the imperfections are what make our human connection even stronger. So that's in a year. It's connections and then technology. Well, and to that point, too, like visually, I think all cameras now, like when younger folks are like people on, you know, subredits online or whatever, like what camera should I get should I get this this or this I'm so confused I'm always just like

whichever one you think whichever one if you were to flip a coin and you know in the air oh I want whatever Sony just get it because they're all great to your point about perfection like the cameras now are all basically perfect so people start trying to introduce imperfections they use vintage lenses they will well we'll get to in a minute but you fucking throw in the anamorphic on sideways just to get a square image you know like random little things that like introduce uh something different because perfect is boring perfect does not excite you know a roller coaster that's completely caged in and only does 50 miles an hour is not as fun as an f1 car that you alone are driving you know the danger or the imperfection or the element of unknown is always more

interesting absolutely absolutely and I think that that is what you know drives our narrative right I mean, you know, we are capturing light, but we're not trying, anybody can capture light. But what we're trying as cinematographers is to capture emotions. And the emotions exist because of our experience, which experience comes from our imperfections. So whatever we didn't do right creates emotions. Whatever was not done right to us creates emotions. whatever you know so I think that it's that is a beautiful emotional journey that we're trying to capture and I believe that the best way to do it as you said is with the tool that you find

available I mean you know I I was like to be you know in the committee of the Los Angeles Greek Film Festival and I saw some amazing films over the year short films and there was this one short film that was shot on an iPhone And I will always be bringing this out there. But it was supposed to be shot on an iPhone. So it was supposed to be, you know, this clip of live from Facebook type of situation. And I mean, if you had all the money in the world to shoot it on IMAX, it wouldn't make sense. The right tool was to shoot it on an iPhone.

And the story was perfectly told by being shot on an icon with just available light, a warner, basically. and you know so it's it's the tools I mean the tools are around and you know you just have to figure out what's available to you and how you can tell the story what's available yeah well and I also think too that in this not just cameras I think this applies to any tool two things one I think I'm stealing both of these from Adam Savage but from the Mythbusters but one if you're getting into something you should just get the whatever tool is available you know the cheapest version until you know what you need and then get you get the most the best one you can afford you know but then also i think there is um there is something to be said about a camera that you physically enjoy interact or a tool that makes you happy to either own or hold or look at like a weird um to not just look because people go like oh you know whatever cameras are just tools and i agree but i for instance much prefer to like shoot with my Fuji film stills camera because physically it makes me happy more so than like my nicon DSLR like other DSLRs because those feel more sterile you know I like the

idea of fun in the object itself because if if I want to pick it up to use it I will versus treating it like you know an obligation almost yes and and this actually something that people don't understand right up from for example I haven't showed a lot of 35 just some testing things like that I've shot quite a bit 16 and I love shooting on 16 it's a magical medium to use but above all when

you know we have countless discussions with you know with producers and why would you shoot on film and it's a hassle and all that yes but you know the feeling that you get when you're right there and you're the only one that here's the and you see the image flickering

in front of your eyes the emotions that are created to you if no one else but to you that you're the one capturing this are so incredible that this and this only forces you to be then better and make the maximum out of the situation i mean it just brings the smile in your face so if nothing else it just brings a smile in your face and it's beautiful to do uh so um i uh i i wholeheartedly believe what you're saying about the tools that some tools make you, you know, when they're hot, man. I mean, what's going to say?

I mean, will you ever forget the first time that you saw on the Alexa whenever that was? I mean, you had a hard done just by looking at it and thinking, oh my God, what are we doing here? I mean, I'm shooting with the same camera that Dickens is. So I mean, that's great. But I think that this tends to kind of fade. And I have this example.

I just finished shooting a film in India. And it was a very, very beautiful film. I really enjoyed what we did. And we showed on the 35. In the beginning, I was excited to do so. Until I saw the camera, and after five minutes, it passed. OK, that's another great camera. All right, it's going to do the job.

Wait, you sell on 35 millimeter or the Alexa 33. No, on the LX 35, which, by the way, has some amazing no light capabilities, which saved us big time. Really? So I've only seen tests. I've been waiting to meet. Like, no one I know has used it yet. I think I've seen a couple tests. I saw one person say like, oh, the reds are fixed.

Like the high reds aren't magenta anymore. They stay red. And then the highlight retention is just impossible. You can't blow it out. Yeah. Well, you know, you can. always blow out things if you really want to. If you're trying, yeah.

But the truth is that the camera really protects you. I mean, we haven't gone into the AI yet. So I'm yet to see how some things will work out. Although technically I should, you know, very, you know, conservatively. I don't really want to push things when it's not necessary to do so. But I can say that we're shooting some amazing night exteriors that you know we we put the entire track out and you know with lights and all that and I was shooting on 3200 and and it looks fantastic I mean I can I I hope

that very soon I'm gonna be able to share with you and you know what this images look like and they are I was so happy. Although I have to say that at one scene, because we're so much losing the light and we have to do it on the perfect, like when, you know, the task is there, everything is blue. You have like 10 minutes to do it. It was not working out. So we're pushing it and pushing it and pushing it. And at some point I reached 6,400, which is the maximum that you can. And I have to sell it. Yeah. And that sort is unusable. I mean, it's it's so much greening. But, but, but, but. But yeah, I was, I was super impressed. I mean, you know, we were shooting at 110, 115 degrees with 98% humidity. You were melting there. But the camera did not feel nothing. Was there rocking it.

Yeah. Great, great tools. Great tools. I mean, that's kind of when people ask like, oh, if I've seen online discourse, like, oh, black magic can look just like an Alexa, why would you bother? And that's the reason right there is like I can put it in underwater basically in humidity. and it'll still run. Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

And, you know, that's why you pay the extra box, I think. I mean, the black mask, for example, even the pocket one, I mean, if you have it as a third camera or something, you know, you can put it in corners that you can never put in Alexa. You can definitely, I mean, you're much better colors than I am. I am never really done coloring myself. So you probably know, like nowadays, you can. much, pretty much everything. And with my experience, I mean the previous sensor at least of the Alexa, what I was able to bring much closer to that look out of the box was the black magic. I mean,

it's a fantastic, for the money. It's unbelievable, of course. But then you cannot do things like that, you know, run it for 14 hours a day in the humidity and this and that and, you know, it's still there working for you and it doesn't have a viewfinder well i guess the irsa i just picked up i didn't pick it up but it was sent to me to review the ursa 12k and like again the image out of that thing is just stunning and it but the body shape and the ergonomics of it is like so it like fights you again going back to the idea of like wanting to pick up a camera and use it that one kind of wants you to leave it on a tripod you know it doesn't i don't want to and there's just some buttons you It just feels like there's so many buttons on that thing and all you really want is record.

Like all the other buttons, like, you know, there's like games, switches and stuff. I'm like, I just record, please. When you're shooting with any camera, do you really know even where the record button is? In the majority of the times, I don't even though. I will say on, I was going to say on the cannon, I have a C-500. And so I do know that on the handle, there's one right there. But every once in a while I'm not using that. And I'm like, there, yeah.

I guess the Alexa does have that big one right here like over the shoulder that's pretty easy. Yeah, or on the viewfinder. But, you know, for example, sometimes you're, you know, for some reason, you know, your focus puller cannot press the wreck for you. And whenever this happens and, you know, I am, you know, until or, you know,

trying to, you know, be there, whenever I am told from the HMS that can you press the wreck, it's like they're telling me to solve an equation of mathematics that I've never done before. I cannot find that bundle anywhere. It's crazy. Yeah. That one are like, not to knock on Ari at all,

but having those three reprogrammable buttons, they really should, or three or four harmonies, they really should give you a way to not have to use tape to write what they are. because like you know you'll get one from the rental house and you think you just remember that one being like turn on endy or turn off indie and you click it and it's like suddenly it goes false color but you click it again and it doesn't go away and you're like oh shit video it'll just like wait what is this and you're like nothing stop looking stop looking that's that's uh that's uh you know uh add off to our wonderful camera teams that they know what we want and they go to prep and it always seems to be the same camera all around. I did want to ask. Oh, go ahead.

I just wanted to add for the India thing that I showed on amazing lenses, I have to tell you, that I adored the look and it was a last minute decision. I mean, I did not have time to prep. I just went there. We did a bunch of other prep instead of, you know, actually focusing on, you know, what camera we're using and what lenses.

But at the very last minute, I decided to shoot them on the Hawk C series. However, the rental house somehow threw in an elite 24.5 anamorphic. And, oh my God, I have to say that 60% of the film is shot on the 24.5. another 25% stood on the 35 hook and you know 50, 75 and 100 rarely used. I mean, that one lens gave to the film shot. I mean, the moment that I put on the camera and I saw what it does, I was so, I mean, have you heard of a 25 millimeter anamorphic before? I've never heard of something like this in my life.

No, not 25 and a half. 24 and a half or 24 and a half yeah yeah so I was blown away and even you know the closeups

I mean I would just bring it right here I mean I wish I would share now some pictures but anyways we're going to discuss when it comes out

I just want to add this that's that's by elite yes elite never even heard of them neither's it I

but it was just there on the on the lenses and I I picked it up and I said, what's that? And it turned out to be the lens for the movie. That's so awesome. Yeah, I've used talk a couple times.

They make great lenses and they're local to L.A. here. So that's always nice, you know. People who work there are nice. I did want to ask, though, you know, kind of the other side of things, you know, looking through your reel and stuff, you have a very sort of naturalistic way of lighting than I think a lot of people like, including myself.

And I was wondering, did you have any sort of inspirations that kind of pushed you towards that style of lighting? Or was that more one of those things that kind of came naturally to you, just from personal preference? Or like, how did you kind of build? Because you have a very cohesive look, and not that everything looks the same, but you have a fingerprint, you know. And I was wondering how you came to that. Well, by watching films, I realized very important. I mean, in the beginning, of course, I want to become a director, right? I mean, that was the focus.

I'm now a director. And then, you know, later on, I had the great blessed to have in my life. Walter Lassely, who was an Oscar winner, cinematographer, who's living in our house in my little city in Hainia. It was a huge blessing having him around all the time. And we never talked to cinematography, by the way. I mean, he never pushed me to be a cinematographer, although back then I was standing that, you know, I'm a director and all that.

But I think that the way that he would describe the narrative, because we'd watch films together and would discuss the narrative, what the story said, never technical stuff, never, maybe if there was something, you know, a candlelit scene that he wanted to dive into, would, but generally speaking, would speak about, you know, the film itself. And I think that all those references were very naturalistic. And so when I started watching films outside of, you know, our sessions together, whatever was not naturalistic kind of drew me out of the film. I mean, that's a preference, of course, that I mean, it doesn't mean that every audience

member when you don't know how this light is coming here would be thrown out of the story. personally, I am thrown out of the story sometimes when, you know, I don't understand how a lighting situation has happened, which again, it's totally fine to do so. I mean, there are some marvelous films that they're intentionally using light in a very surrealistic way. That works for the movie. That's great. But personally, to me, I try to use what would be natural sources, what would look natural to your eyes, and make that natural look work for the movie if possible. I mean, there have been sometimes that I have, you know, gone a little bit further away from naturalism for some certain things that I believe needed so. But for the

majority of things, I just feel that what drives the narrative is the performance. And the more tools you pull around to support it, sometimes they don't need that support. Sometimes all they need is some negative feel here to make it a little bit more dramatic and just be on their face and let the actors play out. Because, you know, a film with good cinematography and bad performances is unwatchable. While vice versa is a very watchable film. So I try to maximize on letting the performances speak for themselves and the narrative and try to use my tools in a naturalistic way so that they don't drive the audience, or at least myself, outside the story. But they are there to support the story and, you know, bring it forward. Yeah. Well, and, you know, not that getting that look is always easy, but it's nice when you can just light with like one big soft source or something. And it literally is just like one stand and then you're done. You know, it saves a lot of time.

And it's not. You know, I find it to, you know, Waldragan, when I finally decided that, you know, somatographs my path, then we started talking a little bit more technical. stuff. And he was telling you that you're going to find in your life many times yourself breaking your head because you're lighting a bar of chocolate and you have used 90 lights and it doesn't look good. Do you know what you have to do in that case? Turn all the lamps off but one and shoot. It's going to be ready. So simplicity is key sometimes. And as you said, I mean when you have one big source, that's why I do love a little bit big source. I prefer to have less and bigger than few smaller ones because a big source can give you, for example,

you can push it through a window and then use the elements of the room to work it out. I mean, that's something that I was doing on the chosen quite a bit. I mean, you know, I was pushing through the window a big source like an 18K or 4K is even closer to the window and then had, you know, the table bouncing off the light onto the actors or put some elements on the table or on the chair. or right where, you know, the light was getting the ground in order to reflect and all that and start

shaping with one lamp. I think that I love this way of working, to be honest. It doesn't mean that, you know, it's the only thing that you should be doing, of course, but it's another great tool to have to be able to shape the light. I think it's important. Yeah, I think a great way that that helps me kind of light like that was just to consciously for one year I only shot black and white photography like even on my cell phone and I would just look I would go around wherever I was and just constantly be on the lookout for good light like if the light looked good I'd take up it didn't necessarily have to be a photo of anything in particular just the light the way the light was like coming into a room or by a street or off a building or whatever and then from there I was able to build more you know like characters but especially in the like, let's say New York. It's like cheating because it'll be like all flagged off on one side and then the sun's coming in and bouncing and like hitting your subject through this nice hard backlight. You know, but you can learn a lot. For example, it's a great because I'm doing this as well. I mean, whenever I am in a situation that I sit the light doing something

unexpectedly nice, I would take a photo of whatever it is. It doesn't have, as you said, to be a good photo, it just has to capture, you know, the lighting situation, so I can recall it later as a reference. And that proves right there that, you know, the biggest inspiration is life itself. It's not movies. Because movies are a depiction of life. But if you're lucky enough to be living and have your eyes open, you can see things that you would go, wow. Wow, how is this working here like this? I would never have expected. If I would see it on a movie, it would throw me off because I would think that it's artificial here.

Wow, it's amazing. And yeah, so I hope hardly, I'm on the same boat with you capturing, you know, whatever lighting situation is around me. And I find it interesting. Yeah, and then you get to replicate it. We were just talking the last podcast I did where we were saying how we both get really nitpicky about catchlights. Like I have this one great photo I took, but you can tell that I used an astera tube as like the rap. And I just hate that there's like this line, like a weird line. It doesn't look like a thing.

It's just like a line in the eyes. And he was saying the same thing. He had like a, I think it was a tube or a panel at playing his firelight, and you could see it in the catch eye. And he was like, no, everyone's going to know I cheat it. Well, the worst thing is when they wear sunglasses, the actors, or even regular glasses. You can't light. It can't lie. I mean, it's impossible.

But sometimes, you know, you have to live with, you know, the consequences of, you know, are you going to make it look as you want to make it look. And maybe, just maybe, you convince production to kind of paint it out. But really not. You just have to convince yourself that you're okay with the situation, seeing that tube over there, or you prefer to not put that tube over there, and then the entire picture looks not as good as it couldn't. It's a game that's like...

There's, for the longest time when I was a kid, I thought that sunglasses, like I'm sure this is happening where you're like watching a movie as a as a kid and you just accept that that's reality but it's not it's clearly artifice from film and so the one that always bug me that I just thought like maybe I wasn't getting cool enough sunglasses was when especially that they'd have like whatever big mirrored aviators and they were super frosted over so that you couldn't see the reflection you know it would just be like a mat and I was like oh I want those cool matte sunglasses like that was like that was As the art department did that. That was not, that actor can't see out of those. But thing that they did, there was a happy to be behind those lenses. Yeah, that's a nice thing about shooting corporate stuff is you can just be like, hey, take that off.

And they're like, oh, but I can't see it's like, it doesn't matter. Just don't see it for a while. Yes, I mean, sometimes, you know, working with actors, you know, it's important. Sometimes, you know, you can tell them that, you know, maybe you should reconsider putting those glasses in this scene. Sometimes they will. Sometimes they don't. I mean, of course, they have the first saying that, you know, it's cool when they're like, yes, but I think that the character would be wearing those glasses now. But it's not that, you know, the character is a loner and does this.

Yeah, okay, then I'm not the word. I think your character would chew on the end. I did want to talk because about what was the short film call? It's got a big old long name, the one that's a flickering salt set alight. Yes. So you shot the whole thing. This is a crazy pivot, but I did want to talk about it because for the first time in IMDB history, there's just a great shot of you using the camera.

Nine times out of ten, whenever I'm doing research, I like got to zoom in real far. Let's see what the hell they're using. But you had mounted your Cook S-4s on a mini sideways. So you got a square image. So it was Cucanamorphics that we showed. And the reason that we went there is because of limitations. That is a key drive into creativity, I think. Yes, I 100% agree.

So, you know, we have the great director, Aguos Panavopoulos, who did a two years research on ALS, which is the subject of the movie, right? And went and visited countless houses that, you know, had patience. And a similarity, you know, we're talking about it and, you know, he was bringing all this tons and tons and tons of formation on the table,

and that's why PrEP is the most important thing in a film, hands out. So we're talking about, you know, hours and days spending, and then at some point she brought something very interesting on the table. which is that these patients, because, you know, they cannot even turn their heads left or right, I mean, you know, they're fully functional brains in zero functional bodies. So because they're constantly, you know, have to look a certain or for the majority until somebody helps them a certain location. The family and the loved ones, you know, usually plays, you know, photos from the past or, you know,

elements that he liked or she liked and all that. And as the years past, this grows organically into squares because, you know, you place here, it plays there and then, you know, this organically grows into a square, which Ievos called it the square of memories. But I was blown away by this piece of information because those people that are trapped in their non-functional bodies, The only escape they have from the reality is to look at these elements, of this visual content, which is again shaped like a box.

It's here. So they can fly as free as they can within, you know, the parameters of a square. So everything about a thought so that, you know, because the film, I mean, the camera was discussed with Iago was how to be. almost like the fifth character of the movie that's why it's only you know single takes everything is a single take and all that I said how about we actually bring that square to our world so we actually shoot it on a one-by-one aspect ratio and in beginning was a little bit reluctant I would we and should we know I

mean who has done that before so I started you know researching and I found mommy for example which is a beautiful film that is you know so the majority of it is on a square but they cropped they had to crop the problem with us cropping was that first of all we could not afford an alexamine in the beginning thus we didn't have a 4x3 sensor we had an amira available which has a 16 by 9 sensor so if we were to grow a 16 by 9 that means you losing almost like 40 percent of the information just to keep it right here just to give it square and much wider lenses.

Much wider lenses. And of course, we're shooting at locations that they're fantastic, but they were super, super squeezed as well. So what are we going to do? I'm going to shoot the entire film on a 12-mill. I mean, how are we going to work around it? And then the idea hit my head that what about actually, instead of cropping, we add the information somehow to our sensual.

So how do you add the information? And I said, what about, you know, getting an amorphoid glass, instead of squeezing like this, you squeeze like this. So, you know, the 16 by 9 will actually become, if you think about it, 16 by 18, which is almost a perfect square. So, and then you have to crock top and bottom a little bit, but, you know, it might work very well. And a huge shout out to the amazing team we had in the film.

Vigelis GFaig is my first AC who this guy can pull focus with his eyes blows he has it in his soul I don't know how he's pulling focus to the midis Macriyanis who is a programmer

because we couldn't have light monitoring there was no monitor that would allow you custom disquising and custom aspect ratio so we had to find a way that the camera would actually send a signal to a computer

the computer would squeeze it as we wanted and at the bars and then back to the feet of the monitors, which in the beginning had huge delays and this and that. Anyways, everybody did, and of course the rental house artos in Greece, amazing rental house, who just was giving us equipment all the time to try this, try that, try this. And that's how we end up, you know, seeing some pictures from the tester we did. We said that's a film. I mean, that's the film. That's the film. because it looks like a format that we have never seen before i mean if you look at those pictures

they look like almost a six by six photo i mean they look yeah bombarded with information although they are a square uh and that's that was how we uh and we're too that yeah well and it's kind of cool because like like you said it does kind of look like a medium format photograph and in some ways it's almost i max ratio you get one-fourth three but but it's cool because because you're using an anamorphic there is that kind of strange interesting fudginess on the edges but they don't appear where you expect them because the lens is sideways so it's like the sides get kind of like and it kind of draws you in in this weird i keep saying weird like it's bad i mean in a good way uh vignette like this kind of strange vignette

that pulls you into the center of the image in a way very much so very much so uh but uh you know There are other elements that you would expect, for example, the flares. I mean, those lenses do not flare as much. However, I was expecting the flares. I mean, since, you know, you would expect them here to be perfectly here, but they were not. They're somehow like this. They are diagonal, if you bet. Interesting.

And same thing with the bocas. I was expecting that since, you know, the bocas are usually like this, that they would be like this. But no, they're not. they are kind of it's it's very weird i mean you have to uh to take a look to uh and make most attention to this but you're going to say that they are behaving very unexpected that is what that's still pretty cool well and i saw in that same photo that you were putting a streak filter on the front yeah that like all the time or just for a certain scenes no it was for one specific style actually uh that we're actually shooting through a mirror even so

So the show starts by looking in this cafe new, in this cafe place. And you go a little bit through a mirror, but you don't realize this in the beginning until a character, you know, gets up and boost, and then, you know, we dolly in as we pan to the left. And that's how you realize that, okay, you were watching this through a false perspective. And it was important to showcase that holds perspective in the scene, because one of the two characters believes that the other character has done something. The other character explains that, well, that's exactly how things happen,

and then he stands up to reenact what happened in the past. That's a very interesting thing. So as the camera travels to do so, I wanted an element which, if I would bounce some extra lighting, would give us some additional flaring and something to showcase the transition from now to the past. And that's why we chose that. Gotcha.

We're using any other filtration on the film? Some black promis, I think, we did as well. There's some atmosphere in those bedroom shots that could be a filter. It could just be hate. No, I think it's the majority of a combination, actually. I mean, I do like the black promise, to be honest, as a filter. I don't take a lot of filters with me usually, but that one is something that I need

in my toolbox and it was a haze of course I mean but you know Hayes I mean it's such a lovely tool but having long takes and shooting on location and not on estates a location that had holes everywhere

I mean it was why the thing to give right there was one trick I learned about Hayes I haven't shot with Hayes in forever but I remember someone this might have been David Mullen not teaching me specifically

but someone was saying that if you take a gray card and put it in the back of the room and then use a spot meter you can just if there's less haze it'll get darker the reading and if there's too much haze

it'll get brighter so as long as you keep that spot meter the same F stop doesn't matter what it is but just as long as you you set the tone and you're like I like I like the haze that much So you meter the gray card at the other side of the room, and then go,

all right, that's the number that the haze has to be at for it to be the same hazeness. Fantastic, fantastic, trick, I would say. And I can see how, I mean, can help out. I mean, sometimes, you know, when you have, you know, huge thing, you know, sometimes, you know, the case drops and great. Totally. But it's a fantastic way to actually make sure that, you know, sometimes, you know, special effects people you know they're super helpful and all that but they don't have the eye for the

detail that we are trained to have so sometimes they're like okay but it's exactly the same like no it is not the same this is a perfect way to uh showcase that well uh maybe we should keep it on that level yeah did you uh did you ever become like a meter person or do you kind of just trust the monitor because i one one of my favorite things now is getting on a set and lighting with just meters without setting up the camera you know the who whatever AC can set up the camera but because then the director will just get off my case hey I need to see a frame I'm like just give me

give me it's you know like you were saying about shooting film and you're the only person who knows lighting with meters is like I'm the only you know everyone lets me do my quiet thing until I set up a camera and I'm like ta-da you know versus someone sitting over your shoulder and nitpicking you the whole time can't that be a little like wait you know

yes well especially in the beginning I think I was trying to use my meter as much as possible. But as the years are progressing, I have it with me, but I mean, some days I don't even touch it because I don't trust the monitor per se, but I do trust the pulse caller. So I do think that it gives me more than enough information that I need in order to make the right choices.

Sometimes I will go back to the light meter, but for example, when to India, That's a little bit embarrassing. So we went to India and I realized that I forgot my light meter. God, what am I going to do now? Thank God my guffer, Joel had his. But, I mean, did I ask him maybe five or six times during the old shoot? Can I borrow your light meter for a second? I think that was that.

So it shows would I have used more if I had mine there? I'm not sure to be honest with you I think that I used it as many times as I wanted to use it so I think that the new tools like you know the false color especially nowadays I mean it's very specific on you know what you're actually getting out of it

it's in North All's Color is the best it's a favorite tool that has come out for cameras ever like a waveform is great but I kind of use waveforms to just like eyeball you know like ballpark it like all right it's

in the zone but with false color you can just be like oh there's just you can very easily fix a small problem that you couldn't visually see that you know will pop up in post you know visually you're like oh there's enough data there and then you get in the edit and you're like the second we try to brighten that up this corner just explodes you know and you can see that in false color i love it so much yes yes it's great and so on a click of a button i mean sometimes uh you know you're you're shooting from the hip um and uh you know you're just have to go so when you just have to go So when you just have to go, you really don't have time to go there, but you have that tool right there, you click it, you know, okay, I have to make a quick adjustment, what can it be really quickly?

Do I have the type to actually fix it or should I just stop down a little bit? What should I do? But it gives you the ability to actually protect your images so much faster, and very precisely as well. So I think that, you know, regarding meters and all that, I never had a color meter, by the way, which I always wanted to. That is my favorite. I never had one. I never had now. Okay, okay. I'm going to ask you for age.

You can bar, I mean, I will say, I've said this a few times on this podcast. The best speed and accuracy thing that I love about having these, the new color meters, right? Because the older ones, they can't really do LED that well. But you, you know, you're in a room and you're, you want to augment the sunlight. So you just meter the sunlight. And it gives you X, Y coordinates. And on the backs of certain. lights, you can type those in and it'll give you the exact color, not just color temperature,

but the exact color of the light coming in. Because you know the CIE diagram, that's that big triangle, right? The Plankian Locus, this is mad nerdy. The Plankian Locus is where, you know, orange to blue exists, but maybe the lights reflecting off a tree, so it's going to skew a little green, but you can't really tell. But with the X, Y coordinates, it's exactly the light. As long is the light is good enough to like reproduce that those coordinates correctly but most of them are um and just being able to walk up get the light coming in the window set your light to that and be done with it um save so and it just looks perfect that's uh that's that's that's very good tool to have i mean usually i trust my eyes i have to see in i have to say in the majority of the circumstance i

I think that I see pretty well, I have to say, but I have what they call anxiety. We all have that. Yeah, yeah. But I never have tried one color meter before and I would love to have one. I would love to have one. So maybe I'm going to borrow yours. Yeah, you can play with as long as you want. I did want to ask, because I had seen on your website, you know, you have your different

segments and stuff you worked on and it does feel like you have almost exclusively, or you tend to shoot short films, which is different than most people I've interviewed. Most people are either like all features in television or like mostly music videos and commercials. But short films feel kind of underrepresented. And I was wondering what draws you to the, is that just the work that you get or are you specifically drawn to short films? You know, is there advantages or disadvantages to being in that space? Yes, well, it's a very good question. I have to say that nowadays, I tend to shoot less and less short films as more features and TV is coming alone.

I adore shooting short films, I have to say, because although in the US, unfortunately, this is a zan that is not very well represented, generally speaking, because nobody finances short films, and who would finance a short film that's never going to make its money back? It's totally understandable. However, in Europe, the government is supporting. those films. The government is paying for these films to be produced because nobody else will. So you're actually, you have available means to actually create some wonderful little stories there. And to me, short films are a genre of its own. I mean, usually when you are thinking about short film, you're thinking about an amateur or student film or whatever because these people do not have the means to actually do a feature film so that's how you start

that's totally understandable however it's a sound of itself i mean if you look of the short films that are coming out of europe they are spectacular some of them are and they are winning you know cans pandoah oscar winners and all that they are fantastic because some stories needs two hours to unfold perfectly. Some other stories need 10 seasons to unfold. But some other stories need 20 minutes to unfold. So what do you do with those stories? Are you going to turn them into feature films because they cannot make their money back? Or are you going to tell them as they were supposed to be told? And that's the stories that I'm looking for generally, not even if it's a short film, if it's a feature film, or it's a TV series.

Stories that are right to themselves, that are not pretending to be something that they are not. They're not shreds one way or another. They're what they are. They're true to themselves. And that's true to us as the viewers. That's how we can connect. So yes, I mean, and that's, you know, life brought me more short films up until now, but now there are feature films coming.

So, you know, whatever is the story. I don't say no to short films. I don't say no to future films. I love television nowadays, I have to say totally, which is something that I didn't expect, because in Greece, nowadays, there are good things happening. However, when I was in Greece, TV was a really suffering medium in terms of our work.

I mean, you had two or three days to shoot the entire episode, but then with the means, I mean, you didn't have maybe a 1.2 HMI, I mean, you were really struggling to do something that you were not proud of. So that's why I really kept away from television, even watching television, I never really watched television until I moved to America. And I saw what great things can happen in television. And then I had this amazing opportunity to work on the chosen. And that opened up my eyes, ears, and heart to a whole new world that I would love to explore way more in the future. Well, and I imagine too, like on the one hand, television now is so much different than even 10 years ago where like,

but like you said, budgets are starting to grow on these TV shows where now you can do something really spectacular versus, you know, like my example is always Doctor Who. I don't know if you ever watched Doctor Who, but like when that show is a BBC show, sci-fi thing. And it's been on for 70 years, but there's a big break. They reboot it in 2006, and it looks horrific. I mean, same thing. They've got one, you know, one party light. That's it. And it's it's just bad. And then, uh, you look at it now and it's, it looks like a movie. I mean, every, every episode, they do 15 episodes a season or whatever. And they all look like feature films. Um, because, and that's in the UK. But, and well, that's also a BBC.

That is a government funded show. Shit. I'm telling you, government in Europe is helping our industry. Anyway, I can. But I imagine two shooting short films in a way television is kind of nice for the creative brain because you get to, you know, with a feature film, that can eat up a year or more of your life. You know, and I could imagine, I've never shot a feature, but I imagine that it could get kind of perhaps creatively tiring without short films might only take three, four, six months. and you can kind of bounce and keep pushing yourself creatively and trying new things and not yeah yes yes but it all depends i mean in the long format um i again i'm very drawn to nowadays i mean in the beginning one thing that i loved about our job um and was that

you know, you can do in a year, you know, one feature and a couple of episodes and, you know, a bunch of commercials and put in a couple of music videos and a short film. If you're really productive and very likely, and everybody wants you. But with other professions, even within our industry, do not have this flexibility. So I like that and I like changing, you know, worlds and, you know, traveling around and But again, by doing my first series, which kept me for a year almost, I mean, if you think about it, not a year, but, you know, it was almost there. Well, I loved it. It's like, you know, it's like on your teenage years or, you know, college years, you change, you know, relationships around. You bound from one person to the other.

But then you find somebody that you're kind of, you know, you're falling in love with. You love spending time with that person for a longer period. I mean, and that's how I felt about television. That's why I'm a little bit in love right now. It's a bit in the Hanningham States, maybe. But I loved it. I absolutely love it. Yeah.

Yeah, that's a, that actually brings up a question. I know I got to let you go soon, but I, you relatively recently joined Local 600, right? like 2020? Yes, yes. I joined local 600 in 2021 or 107. Yeah, it's one or the other. I think when I did Libby's Treehouse at a, yeah, I should be, I think it was 1010 to 1. 20.m. So I wanted to know what was your sort of, I hate the word journey, but what was your journey to joining the union and then also how has it benefited you and also congratulations on being nominated for like a cinematography award basically off rip what you basically joined a union to be

nominated thank you thank you uh well i um since i moved to first of all in greece we don't have unions we did have back in the day but nowadays no union so um because that's small industry you know so when i moved i first of all didn't know there's a union i didn't know something like this i just came here and i thought that hey there has to be plenty of jobs for everyone so let me jump it um and it was not like that by the way but that's i soon realized that i start you know making connections with some dPs and some you know people and all that they were doing this amazing projects and I'm a terrible focus puller. I cannot focus at all. So I thought, okay, you know what? Because I really want to keep on learning, I would love to participate somehow

on those projects and what do I know how to do best besides the being operating? Because I'm operating for myself anyways. So that's something that it's, you know, into me anyways. And I, I I started knocking on some doors and saying, hey, you know, well, when you have D camera or E camera, they join, you know, to see how they, you know, things are unfolding here. And they could not very soon be realistic, not offer me such an opportunity because I was not in the local 600. I'm like, what is this local 600 at the end of the day? How do I become a member of this thing? And I realized that it's not as easy to do so.

I mean, there are two ways to go about it. You're either unlikely and you have to work in non-union for a certain amount of years, certain amount of days, but of jobs that do count for the union, then put all this paperwork together to prove and no pay stance and this and that's admitted, then, then, impossible. Right. So I said, okay, if they come from the lucky ones, who are these likely ones? And they said, well, if you're working on a show that is non-union and then it flips, then you get union days. But even so, you have to get 30 days to become union.

So if it's a show that is like 24 days, good luck getting the rest six of them. And within a year, because you have to be on the same situation for something like so much to happen. And I said, well, if there is a chance for me to join Local 600, I'd better be from the lucky ones because there's no way I can gather. all this crazy amount of formation. And that's what happened. And since then, you know, Locally, Sanar has given me some opportunities to be on much bigger projects

than I would be able to. For example, I operated for Aikis Costa da Coppun. It was an amazing, another cute friend of mine, amazing DP for a Lion's Gate movie called The Jesus Revolution. Atrilyakis is the main debut of The Chosen. He was the one to bring me on board of this amazing show as well.

well, which, again, turned union. In the beginning, it was not going to now it is. So I would not be able to be there if I was not in the union. So it has brought me some amazing opportunities. And I'm looking forward to other opportunities to come. Try, you know, when this whole thing will, you know, be a part of history. But until then, you know, we have to stick. with each other because, you know, our brothers there are fighting for something very important

and something that we will soon be fighting as well. And now they're sitting in a president. So it's important for this president to be set and to make sure that, as we were talking before about tools, that the tools are there and they're super exciting and great. They help us reach our goals much faster in a much more efficient way, et cetera. Yes, but we have to be careful that those tools will, you know, work for us and not as for the tools. It's a thin balance there, but we still have, as we say in Greece, you have the watermelon and you also have the knife and you can carve it to your liking. So we better carve it correctly now so that it's carved to our liking before it gets carved by itself.

And that may be mean for the watermelon to splashing our head. So, um, that's, uh, that's my take on that. Yeah. Well, and also I'm, I'm a firm belief, like you were saying about like good to support like WGA and Sagan, all these people who are striking because I'm a firm believer in, uh, you know, the rising tide lifting all boats. You know, if the, I don't, I, in general in America, there seems to be this idea that like, oh, if someone gets more, somehow I get less and especially if they're in like your business or whatever. if writers and actors get more, that means that we can also get more. You know, no one's going to be like, they're special, they're specialer than you. It's like, no, we're all going to, it's going to make all of us more comfortable, you know,

and especially, you know, with how much it goes vice versa. The less that they achieve, the less we will achieve. Yep. So, you know, we are, you know, the beauty of filmmaking is that it's a collective art. is an art that is made from so many people into one piece. There are not many art forms out there that do so, and yet it to remain so personal. So we are one.

It doesn't matter, you know, all the crew and the cast, everybody working for this one collective piece is one, because the end of the day they produce one piece that has to be solid and all well rounded. So we have to stay together because we are together and we will always be together and we will always work together

as long as we keep the opportunity of working together or working generally on the table. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'll let you go now because we've gone a little over, but yeah, I'll definitely have to, because you live so close, we'll meet up for a beer later and I'll lend you that. color meter and we can heard out about that. Excellent. I can't wait. I can't wait. I have to say to do, uh, and you got to do that

at some point come to my rooftop, which is one of the best place I consider it to be in LA. I, I would, uh, love that because we have an apartment. Every other apartment building in my, on my street has rooftops and we don't. And we don't have a pool. Oh, worst. So then I, I, then I assume that if you're, are you local 600? No. No. I don't. I think I think that when you become a member, you better stick up those files because it looks like you're from the unlike ones.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, totally. All right, man, well, like I said, thanks a lot. That was a lot of fun, and I'll be in touch. Thank you so much, Skédy. It was wonderful being here, and thank you for having. Frame and references an owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video.

coalition. As this is an independent podcast, it's supported by listeners like you. So if you'd like to support, go ahead and go to buy me a coffee.com slash frame and ref pod. And as always, thanks for listening. And as of yesterday, congrats to our WGA brothers and sisters.