Frame & Reference Podcast - 115: "House of the Dragon" DP Catherine Goldschmidt, BSC

Episode Date: October 13, 2023

This week I'm joined by the wonderful Catherine Goldschmidt, BSC! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow F&R on all your favorite social platforms!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry. -------------- (0:00:15) - DP Work and Membership in BSC (0:09:42) - Long-Term Series Engagement and Film Production (0:21:03) - Film and TV Lighting Challenges (0:28:59) - Differences in Shooting Styles (0:39:37) - Escaping Small Town, Discussing Film (0:46:47) - Cinematography and Camera Equipment Conversations

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to episode 115 with Catherine Goldschmidt, DP of House of the Dragon. Enjoy. Are you watching anything cool yourself? Well, I knew you were going to ask me, because I have listened to your podcast before. The problem is I'm deep in production right now, so I find it difficult. It's not just the time that I have, which is little, but it's also just the headspace that you get into when you're waking your own thing and, like, not wanting to pollute that somehow. but that said, I did recently watch the Brooks Shields documentary that I think is on Hulu

in the States on Disney Plus here that my friend Lana Wilson made and I thought it was excellent, actually. So that's a recent watch of mine that I can remember. Yeah, I was just, I was talking to, I think it was Benji Backsheet. who shot Strange New World and he had a similar thing where it was like

and a lot of DPs who brought this up where it's just like if you're working on something you know basically why go home and then almost go back to work by watching something

yeah yeah yeah it's a little close to home although the opposite of home but yeah it's a little close and yeah

and you're also just looking at a screen all day long as well and then to go home more screens um so yeah i usually just look at my dog and and hello yeah i actually speaking of screens this has started happening to me i got scared i thought i got like macular degeneration i was staring i like got a day off so i was like you know what i haven't played a video game in a year and a half let me do this i'm doing that and then i went to edit i'm looking at a screen then

i was looking at my phone and the next morning it still hasn't quite gone away but the next morning my left eye I could see the back of my retina like in my vision and so that's yeah it's not rad but um it didn't occur to me until now like the eye looking through an eye piece of like a film traditional film camera won't give you that you know it's a ground glass and stuff but i'm wondering like shit are we gonna are we going blind because we're just constantly focused you know like a foot in front of us yeah Yeah, and especially, you know, on the dint for when you're in the black tent and you just have these, like, you know, it's not just the screens, but, you know, you have the wave for it and the this and, you know, and everything is just sort of like shining at you constantly. Yeah.

Hopefully not. Hopefully we won. We need our eyes. So, that was the scariest part. I was like, oh, shit, am I going to have to go into music? But I guess that apropos of nothing. brought up the tent. Are you working with a, on the show you're working on? Are you doing like the onset colorist or is that just like the viewing tent? Yeah. So I'm doing season two right now

of House of the Dragon and the tent is the DIT's tent. So we do have live grade. We, we, you know, I personally use it sparingly. But so yeah, so that's the tent I refer to. Yeah. So, do you kind of go in setting like a base look and then it gets tweaked on set or do you kind of just let the DIT figure it out and you just kind of okayed something at the beginning I guess that's the same thing but yeah kind of what's your approach to yeah well we have we have we have a show lot so that's it's literally just one lot across the show so you know so everybody starts with that and then yeah when I'm going into a scene you know I mean it's it the first conversation is always like you know what should we set the color balance to on the camera and that is really sort of like the basis for then you know then where I set the lights and and how we build the color from there um yeah makes sense but yeah and and to be honest I usually don't do too much more than color balance and you know and and you know we make minor adjustments for certain lenses, you know, and, and we, you know, we come to know sort of what

those are over the course of a show as well. So, yeah, and that's trying to keep it simple, honestly. Yeah, I found, so I started freelance coloring because I was coloring all my own stuff, but over the pandemic was doing along. And I found that like, I feel like people get a little too in the weeds with, you know, especially if you get the panel, you know, you can really start spinning knobs around it. It's like just a little like white balance and tint and maybe the contrast knob. It's like it's all you need. You know, it's like nice.

What do they say about nice food? You just need salt and pepper. You don't got to. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. If the ingredients are good, then, you know, exactly. Yeah. I did want to ask because I think you've got to be the one of the few American BSC members. How did you, how did that come about?

How did, like, you must have been working there for ever. to get that distinguishment. Yeah, so I've lived here as in England. I live in London. I lived in London for nine years now, and my husband is English. So that is how we came there. Yeah, so he first tried living in L.A., so we did that for, well, I had lived in L.A. for almost 10 years,

and he tried for three the length of, like, the first green card you get. and when that was up for renewal the next one you get is permanent and he was like so is this it are we always living in your country now or you know what's the deal so I don't know this job is portable isn't it

and I just thought well if I can do it here I can do it there and I'm traveling for work all the time anyway and let's give it a shot and yeah so yeah so that's that's that story but yeah the BSC thing was, you know, a huge honor. And, um, and yeah, and I'm thrilled. I only just joined like,

you know, two months ago. So. Oh, really? Oh, okay. Okay. Cool. Yeah. No, it was recent. Yeah. Because I got, um, uh, I got that book. Shit. Where is it? Oh, yeah. No, I'm not in that book. I, uh, when I, because I saw you, you, uh, had co-founded. Was it Illuminatrix? The DP? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not conglomerate, but, um, but I saw. Collective. Collective. Thank you. And I saw Ula Pontigos in there.

I was like, oh, I interviewed her. And she was great. So I went looking for you in the book. I was like, oh, fuck. It's already out of print. Already out of print. Yeah, they just need to like, you know, add in some inserts or whatever to keep it current. Like they do with the ASC manual.

You like open it up and pages fall out and they're like, oh, sorry, after we printed this, we realized our charts were wrong. Yeah. Great. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So how does that come about? Because I know with like the ASC, it's this whole like, you know, oh, two people have to vouch for you. And then there's like a secret society with a box of black balls and white balls. Whatever the hell they do. With the BSC, is it more relaxed? Is it more stringent? Like, how did they reach out to you about it? Yeah. So you, I guess it's similar. I mean, I don't know exactly how the ASC works because I'm not in that organization. But the BSC is also you are nominated by two. to people who have been in the BSC in good standing for, I think, five years or more. So you have a, yes, one person who nominates you and another person who seconds you.

And so, yeah, so they write nice things about you. And then I think also say nice things when they all have their meeting. So, yeah, Fabian Wagner was... Oh, cool. ...commended me. It was really cool. Yeah, so he was the lead DP, obviously, on Hustled Dragon season one. Um, so yeah, he recommended me for membership. And then, um, Angus Hudson was my seconder.

That's awesome. Yeah, it was good. Yeah, Fabian's got it. Awesome. Uh, I don't, I don't know him off the top of the head, but I've run into his name a million times. He's got a great, uh, CV on him, doesn't he? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, obviously, tons of thrones and the crown and then, um, worked with Zach Snyder. And yeah, no, I mean, he's, he's awesome. Yeah. So I guess So I was not a Game of Thrones person necessarily When I was in college The first couple seasons came out And I stuck with it then And then fell off

Because I'm really bad at watching anything That's longer than a mini series But Were you were you a Game of Thrones person Before getting the House of Dragons gig Or did you kind of have to go back And watch stuff get boned up on it? I am with you on the

It's difficult for me to stay invested in a series over the long haul. And that is, I think, partially my, I'm just going to blame my childhood because, so I grew up without a television. So we weren't allowed to watch anything. Oh, wow. We were taken to the movies. And we also had like a VHS player connected to a box that was not connected to anything else. So we could rent movies. But it was very like strict and structured and at certain times of day and blah, blah, blah. So I just don't have that, like, come home from work and turn on the television and, and also I don't have the serialized, like, binge.

So all that's difficult for me. Anyway, all that being said, I was, I remember when the first season came out because I had just read the first book. So then I watched the first season and I was like, oh, this is awesome. This is exactly how I'm going to digest this from here on out. And so then I got the second book, and somewhere along the line, I put that down, and I did not finish the second book. And therefore, I did not immediately finish the second series either. And, but anyway, but then I went back to it, and I went back to it by the time the show was ending, because by that point I had moved to England, but I was back in L.A.

doing a show called Dummy and my whole crew every Monday morning was just like gushing, gushing, gushing. So it became this whole thing where like everybody had to watch it on Sunday so they could come in on Monday and talk about it. So that's when I caught up. And yeah. So anyway, so I, it's, you know, there are fans and then and then there's me who like, you know, really, really loved the show and was really sacked to get it was fabbyn who called me about it actually originally um so and you know and i was a huge fan of his work and so anyway so that was that was a no-brainer for me but but that's the that is the whole story about my relationship sure do you do you find that um because i interviewed a handful of uh people who shot star trek and you know that's certainly one of those shows

that like have as I've mentioned Mark Hamill calls them ultra passionate fans you know the UPS do you find that coming in with kind of a fresh eye has maybe not fresh but a slightly removed from that deep fan do you find that is helpful to you

or potentially did you need to get like reminded of stuff by maybe people on the group who were like no no no yeah so I mean it was on season one anyway it was a good mix I think of both people who had done the original show and then and then newbies and fresh eyes because you know nobody wanted to just remake the show that wasn't the

idea but that being said it was helpful to have you know people around who knew the world and knew how it worked and knew you know certain yeah certain things obviously like need to be consistent um so um so yeah so I I think it really was a good balance and obviously everybody on the show is, you know, a very good student and does their research. And so, you know, so we spent a lot of time, you know, boning up on old episodes that, you know, might have, we might have forgotten about that we need to reference for XYZ reasons, that kind of thing. So, yeah. I saw in a, in a different interview you did that, you know, you wanted to create your own look with the show, but you had mentioned a, but still keeping relatively consistent.

But that you would introduce things like, in your example, SteadyCamp, which wasn't used in Game of Thrones. And it kind of made me think like, God, Game of Thrones was, it feels so recent, but it was, you know, like what, 2009, something like that when it started. How of the, obviously didn't shoot Game of Thrones, but how of the more modern tools now, you know, maybe a decade later helped with this show or just or your career in general, like over a span of time? yeah well so i mean just to clarify i i think it wasn't that steady cam wasn't available when they were shooting it was it didn't use it yeah exactly exactly that they really it was shot in this very considered classic way um so lots of you know dolly moves and crane and et cetera um but your question sorry what was your your actual question oh just yeah because so the thank you for actually correcting because this is the ADHD in me that maybe people find interesting or hopefully interesting.

But yeah, because I was thinking like, oh, you know, back in 0809, up through 2012, maybe, there's this very interesting kind of change in filmmaking, I feel, where there was that very traditional filmmaking style that then was modified by whether it be visual effects techniques or new, you know, digital cameras, LED, for instance, stuff like that. And so when you mentioned like, oh, we added Steadicamp, I was like, that is funny that like, that's such a tool that we would just, of course you would, you know, or a gimbal or whatever. But back then, it's, it maybe not for every show, but it did feel a bit more no, no, you know, that was a very specific tool. So the, so the, so the question being, you know, over your career, how have the more modern tools they were? I saw you're shooting on like the 65 for the show.

But, you know, like LED lights, the massive sensor stuff like that. How of those maybe helped or even hurt your workflow? Or if anything, I, yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I definitely think, you know, new tools should be, and, you know, and I embrace them, right? So, so, you know, it was interesting, you know, last year there was, on the show, we were using a lot more tungsten lighting, and that's something that, that Fabs is a big, fan of. And so because he set up the show, like, that's what the package, you know, consisted of predominantly. And, you know, and I came on and wanted, you know, because he, he basically would never, you know, use an astirotube to do any kind of, like, fiery thing.

Put it on the chart. We mentioned the ashter tubes. And meanwhile, like, you know, because he and I, like, co-taught this class recently at the NFTS. And so it was his class. And I was sort of just, you know, there for, you know, like the dynamic duo or whatever. But I, he purposely invited me to be like, there's no one way to do the stuff kids. And so he's going on about how, you know, we use real flame. And if we need to supplement the flame, it's just, you know, a little bit of tungsten. And that's it. And I'm like, mm, but I actually did, you know, slip some tubes in there for this one scene and so. So, so yeah. So and this season, I don't think I'm breaking my NDA by saying that we are using a lot more L.D.

So, so, yeah. I can't imagine that's under an NDA. Don't mention panels. Yeah. So, so I mean, I think, yeah, I, I both think that that there's something to be said for, you know, especially for this show, you know, we do try to, you know, ground the camera choices in, you know, in reality so that even when we're doing, you know, dragons flying through the air or whatever,

it's like the camera ought to be dragon mounted, you know, or it ought to be dragon, you know, so it doesn't feel like sort of loading in the air with no, you know, no basis and what is the, what would the reality of this situation be? So that does sort of lend itself to, you know, more crane work and more, you know, rather than, I don't know, zippy drone shots or something. So, you know, so it's the creative that informs the what the tools are, if that makes sense.

Yeah. The one thing with LED that I've noticed, and it, you know, I try to be as, I suppose, pragmatic's not the right word, but like realistic about things. like tungsten does have a punchier like something skin tungsten and skin really love each other and i have yet to find an LED even the super powerful ones that do does that thing you know and sometimes you can tell like certain movies certain shows it's kind of like i don't want to say they look cheap but you can you can feel that um lack of reality you know it might be mounting a camera to a dragon uh you know where an operator would be but in some cases it is like even just the quality of light can make things not quite feel no totally totally and i think

that's you know that's something that i that i learned you know from fabs is just that like you know if you can do it with a real flame you know you should because then it's real yeah the uh sometimes you can't sometimes the actors are walking around and you can't put a flame where you want to so it's a tube yeah the uh well ADHD again have you heard of the uh the uh the uh the uh the uh the hydropanels? I don't think so. Who makes them? Astera.

Oh, no, I haven't. Waste some time here. They sent me these things. And I'm curious on your, they just sent me these things. And I don't quite know how I would use them. So now I'm going to just ask you. But they're same technology as the tubes,

but they're these little bricks. And they have like focusing screens and grids and stuff like that. but there's a little magnet on the back and a little mounting points. But the tubes everyone mentioned every single interview. Someone mentions using the stair tubes somewhere. And I'm wondering, would it something like this off the top

of your head fit the same utility? Because I don't know. Well, I mean, I'm sure they're making them, you know, to supplement, right? Not to replace. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I mean, sometimes

the tube form is annoying to me, you know, and I'll put them together and I'll wrap a whole bunch of diffusion around them just so that if it's reflecting in somebody's eye or whatever, it's not just that line, you know? And, and so, yeah, so I am looking for ways to hide the tubeness. I can't remember who I was talking to. And something that's small, you can hide it, you know, behind a, behind a computer or behind, you know, anyway, I'm looking at a computer. That's why I'm thinking about it. But behind anything blocky on a table, you could just sort of prop it up. And I can think of applications.

Yeah. Well, and the reason I bring it up is because, like, I don't do enough work where I don't do any work where sets are being built for me. And I feel like the steratubes or even panels, the hydropanels there, or anything like that, feel more like things that would be built into a set and less often supplements for like a key light or something like that. But do you feel that way? Actually, that's a great question. What was your relationship like with the production design team? Because obviously you don't get in ye olden times. you don't get light fixtures.

Everything's motivated by a window or a flame. You know, so how are you dealing, not dealing with, how are you working with the production design team trying to come up with motivation? Did you have any input? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, all the time. In fact, yeah, I think this season, there's some sort of running joke about, like,

which department has Katie not asked to cut a hole in something that's there, so put a light through it? and right now I've done it you know definitely production production design is the first people in construction because I'm always like can we put a hole there

in that part of the set you know but you know I asked costume if we could you know cut a little hole to run a little wire for a little light behind a candle

I asked stunts if I could cut a hole in some of their stuff I asked he leaves set and it's just Swiss cheese yeah yeah yeah the special effects department has cut holes in their stuff so yeah no it's it's always a collaboration between all the

departments you know where where is the light coming from but you're right in you know in Game of Thrones world you know it does realistically practically only come from Windows and flame sources and when you're exterior obviously the sky but

so yeah so for sets where there are no windows then and even sets where there are you know because not not there are certain scenes

where you want to be motivated you know that's the first thing I ask myself is like where would the light be coming from in this scene and how can we you know how can we improve on that or or make it make it work for what the blocking is or what the you know what what what's happening

basically in the scene so um so yeah so I work really closely with both the production designer and then the set the set decorator um Claire Richards is always a huge fan of mine because I'm always like where are the torturers and where are the you know where are the candles and where's the this And where's the that? So, but she's amazing and she always, she always comes through for me. That's rad. Is it, um, easier to, my brain's just in Star Trek world because it's in so many of those things, but is it easier to, or harder to light a set, light a person when the motivation

for said light is relatively apparent, you know, window, fire, whatever, versus something like Doctor Who, where, you know, in the Tartis, whatever, you got lights coming from. from everywhere. You know, there's, it can be a lot more, you know, what's that phrase? If you have two lights, you have two problems. If you have one light, you have one problem. I imagine the more sci-fi stuff, you've got 107 problems. Yes. Yeah, yeah. The TARDIS is a lightened problem unto itself. The season I did was the second, yeah, Chris Chibnil had taken over as showrunner the season before I got there. So they had sort of established already this, you know, new Redux TARDIS or whatever on the previous season. But, you know, that show at that time,

I actually hear that budget-wise, it's improved. But at that time, it was like the paint was not yet dry and we were shooting on the set. And so that had happened to them in the season before where they had like just finished making it and the DP showed up and just like had zero time to balance out, you know, what lights were, what colors. and how all that worked. And so the season that I started, I sort of heard about that nightmare. And I, and because the set was happily standing from before, I was able to get in there early, you know, and start balancing that set both, you know, both unto itself. And then, and then with the lot that we had and the camera and the color balance and that kind of thing.

So yeah, that was definitely a project that it was important that I, I take on because they spent a lot of money in post trying to fix people's, you know, skin tones and stuff because it was a total, you know, as kind of a cluster in there, basically. Yes. Well, it's fascinating. I've been a, speaking of fandoms, I've been a, you know, pretty big Doctor Who fan my whole life. Me and my girlfriend met as a doctor. And it's amazing. It is fun. But it is amazing how much everyone who's worked on. that show. I got to interview the costume designer from the first couple seasons. That was, she was like, we had five bucks.

But it's amazing what all of the teams, including you, are able to do with what ends up you find out being a relatively limited budget. Yep. Yeah. No, it's that, there's some delightfully old school thing. I'll give you

an example, the TARDIS itself. It comes on location in four pieces because it's a box. And you know like you can just picture right and and then when they open the door on the inside it's just a um you know at least when i was sure it it's not even a blue screen it's it's like a it's a picture it's a picture yeah so it's very i i mean i yeah i had such a good time working on that show it's so fun and and yeah and everybody who does it you know does it for the love really it's just it's just a riot so yeah well you

you also get the distinguished position, I suppose, of being, I can't imagine there's too many Americans who shot that show. But also, that's like being, working on Doctor Who has got to be like being on law and order in New York. Like, if you do that, you're officially a New Yorker. Like, you shot Doctor Who, so you're officially British. Yeah, that's how it felt, actually. That is exactly how it felt. Um, because yeah, I think, I think I shot it in the year I've got my British passport as well. So it was just like, tick, tick. Did you, I guess same questions before. Did you come into that show having seen it been a fan or was that kind of a new job that you're like, oh, time to learn about this one too. Yeah, I had, I, before my interview, I had literally

never, ever watched it. So obviously knew what it was. And knew what the TARDIS was. And, you know, I could like, you know, answer a few basic pieces together. Yeah, but no, I had to do a deep dive, basically, and really boned up. But it's really difficult because there's decades, decades to watch. So you have to ask the internet, you know, what is the best doctor you episode? And then they give me this big list. And you're like, okay. Yeah.

Yeah, there are some great ones out there. And it is, it is a great show. And it's a great, you know, it's a great dynasty to be a part of or whatever. Yeah. You said you shot the set. second Jody Whitaker season. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Very good. That's right. Yeah. It looked great, by the way. Like I, you know, the every year they, they, you know, make it look better. But yeah, that, that season, first season, second season looked, you know, just like a movie, just like anything else, you know. So good work there.

Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. No, it was, it was really fun. I have to say, so because they were shooting anamorphic, that was a fun. Right. particularly for my director who I was working with Jamie Stone whose whole thing is 14 millimeter lens this close to an actor's face and then you just pull out you know and I had to be like

I can't really do that on this format like so anyway so we had to carry some wide spherical primes to do certain shots and and that was fun but yeah no they were yeah they were very we we we tried for a hot second to see if they would consider switching the format and it was it was no because they had just switched the season before and had loved it so yeah i mean it's a great look did they go so far as to try to replicate the anamorphic look in post on when you were shooting spherical or did they just kind of let it play no no i i think they just let it play yeah yeah yeah although although i will say the the colorist did have large, the color is Garrett Spensley, he's been doing that show for years and he's wonderful and he does have a very large catalog of

you know certain flares and stuff like that. So some of that stuff you know gets added at that stage but but yeah I can't remember any specific examples from my episodes. Very.

But again, you know, quote unquote relatively low budget show. You know, that's not something that necessarily needs to be done for what is ostensibly a weekly cereal, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No one's nitpicking that hard. Hopefully, well, some people. But that does bring up an interesting question is, you know, in what ways I've been able to ask this about people like East Coast, West Coast, but in what ways is the UK style of shooting different from the U.S.?

And better or worse for your own personal, like, workflow, I suppose. Yeah, so there's a few key differences. Chiefly, the grip department is very different here. So they only deal with camera as cranes and dollies, you know, all of that is what they do. And they have nothing to do with lighting. So if you hand the grip, a C stand over here, look at you. Staddle with it. He'll be like, oh, I'm supposed to do this?

So that was a big, you know, difference. So, yeah, so everything goes through the gaffer. When it comes to lighting and how you want to cut and shape light, it's all the electrical department. What else is different? I mean, just in terms of, you know, working hours, a standard working day here is 10 hours on camera and an hour for lunch, which is really intense. So they have a semi-continuous working day, which is nine and a half hours on camera and a half an hour for lunch. And that feels a little bit more normal. Because when you stop for an hour in the middle of the day, you're like,

now what am I supposed to, you know, everybody, yeah, yeah. And everybody's just like, you know, the actors get out of costume and, you know, and so when everybody comes back, like, all bleary-eyed and it just takes that much longer to like get up and running again. So, yeah, we try to not do standard working days so we can help it. Semicontinuous is much better. You got to go home effectively an hour earlier. And then, and then we also, something, sometimes do a continuous day, which is nine hours, no breaks. And that's excellent. Everybody goes home at five and has a life. Do they do the old just crafty walking around with snacks on a platter? And just going to, you eat that. I mean, they still give us lunch, but, you know,

it's literally just like everybody, you know, standing around. They have to break the actors, of course. Right. But yeah, the rest of us are just like shoveling food in our faces as we're trying to run around and, yeah, poke a slides or whatever. The Anthony Bourdain standing over a trash can and wolfing whatever down method. Exactly. So, but everybody, everybody does pervert, you know, like nobody wants to break. Everybody just wants to, you know, plow through, get, you know, keep the momentum up, get it done, and then, and then go home and have a tiny bit of a life before coming back to

do it again. So, so, yeah, so I do find the hours are, um, more humane in that way um and you know there's really no such thing as a fraturday over here we're about to do one of them next week and everybody is like what is this this is not on that's what they say over here not on oh add that to the lexicon so yeah yeah and i imagine that helps with if we're going to get maybe in the weeds but a little meta

but I imagine those kind of constant working hours really helps with the flow state like you're saying you know you break for an hour that's it's going to take two hours to get the next shot off you know but if you're working nine straight it might be potentially more tiring but the quality of work may actually end up being higher

because, again, you're constantly in that sort of flow state. Yeah. I mean, you know, you say you have ADHD, I feel like the majority of people to work in film, you know, have it.

So if you can just like stay on a task and do it and then you're done, I just feel like it, I don't know, it only suits my brain better as well. Well, yeah. For me, it's definitely like, so I don't, I've not been diagnosed with ADHD.

TikTok would have me believe that everyone on TikTok wants to tell you how you've got ADHD and they'll tell you all the reasons why. But assuming one of them is right, I do find that the novelty of film work definitely suits my mental profile. You know, when given a new task that collaborative problem solving is definitely what keeps the serotonin going. or whatever, you know, whereas repetitive tasks by the third one, I'm just like, and I am out, you know, like start turning into Andy Dwyer, just, you know. Absolutely. Well, this is why, so I was diagnosed with ADD actually in college, and this is why I switched majors, and this is why I couldn't be a camera assistant, because that is actually quite

repetitive. I mean, I was, but I just wasn't a very good one. and and yeah and I think it's definitely why you know being on set is a great place for my brain because it's just like constant input yeah you know and and stimulus and like and you know and the whole sort of like immediate gratification is all it's all there you know especially in what we do right because we are we are literally you know and there's a time you know that the the factor of time is just so critical, right? That like, it's like, and when will you be lit? Like, you know, in 20 minutes? Great. And so you just have to like focus and do it in that time.

And that's, you know, that's what I really just feel like I'm on and, you know, and let's do it. And if I'm, you know, if I'm left to my own devices by myself to do anything without a time, deadline is just, you know what I'm saying? It's not going to happen. Oh, so I write for Pro Video Coalition, which is like a film news slash gear review website. And they're very chill because they don't like, I'm not an employee there. You know, we're all freelance. And so companies will send me gear to review. And sometimes it'll be months before that article goes up because I'm just fully uninspired.

Not that the tech is bad or anything. Like I got the, what is it, the Black Magic 12K? They were like, hey, we do this. I was like, great. And I just couldn't, I could not be arced, as they say, to pick it up and go film something because I just had nothing, nothing inspired. You know, I'm sure a, you know, neurotypical individual would be like, oh, I have to go do this now and go. But those imposed deadlines, as you say, are definitely very helpful for someone like me. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I'd get everything done based on a deadline model for sure. You said you switched majors. What was your major original? So I was a humanities major, joint humanities major. It was history, philosophy, literature, and a romance language. So it involved a lot of reading. And I realized I just couldn't keep up, you know. It was too much, a lot of reading and a lot of writing.

Good background for film, though. Well, yeah, no, I mean, I mean, you know, I was trying, I'll tell you what, I was trying to do both. I was trying to do that and a film studies major. And that just became an impossible amount of, I mean, to be perfectly honest, like the classes clashed. And it was just, you know, it was just logistically, like I would have had to add another year onto my tenure at college, which I just thought, nah, I'll just do film studies. And that was, that was excellent. Yeah. You had mentioned earlier that you didn't have a television, and I was thinking about it, and I did have television, but I didn't really watch it.

I was much more like, I grew up in a very small town, 5,000 people total. So we had one theater, it had one screen. And then if you drove a half hour, there was a place that had like eight screens. And so me and my friends was pile on the car, go do that. But I do feel like that escapeism from that tiny-ass town definitely is one of the major things that pushed me into film. because it was the, that was the thing that got me out of there, you know? Was it the same for you? Because like not having a TV, but being allowed to go see movies or at least rent them,

but like it feels like it must have been kind of a similar experience for you. Yeah, no, I mean, definitely escapist, but also, you know, my family genuinely all loves movies. Like to this day, you know, we have weekly Zoom calls and all we do is talk about movies. and TV. We now do talk about TV. Sure. You know, everybody watches TV. But so I think it was just like something we also did together as a family and it was like an activity and, you know, and we had a great local video store that I wound up working at in high school and, you know, and we just would go together and like, you know, pick out what we were watching that night.

And so, yeah, I mean, I think, I don't know, that was, it was just, it was, it was a treat, basically. It was a treat that we do when, you know, when, when, when we were, you know, I don't know. Yeah, well, I shouldn't have been prescriptive and been like, that must have been the same for you. But I need to get better just asking your question instead of telling you what I think. but uh what uh no now that now that whole phone process is gone i do i do miss you know you're mentioning like being on set and then game with throats come out and then on monday like everyone was talking about it i do kind of miss that where we're starting to seemingly go back to that but that that weekly release schedule did create more community and more discussion and more

um you know love around your favorite shows and stuff like that and i feel like that and i feel like going to the rental store and like staring at the wall and just picking based off a box art, you know, or maybe trusting the weirdo working behind the register in my case. But that sort of non-film. Did you work at Easter? No, my friend didn't. He was a weirdo. Oh, okay.

Well, we have a little sex section, you know, and if somebody came to the counter with your staff pick, you'd be like, oh, that's mine. Like, I'm Katie. You know, you're watching my pick. You know, it's the whole thing. And so, you know, and people would call the store all the time to be like, what's new, that's good, that's in? And you'd have to like go to the back and be like, oh, well, this has just come in and people seem to like, anyway, it's just, you just talked to strangers about movies, which I don't do any, you know, I don't do it anymore. I mean, I talk to, you know, reporters, but.

well it's it's something that I think you know certainly made me love film is those non strictly film you know I was never a even during college I did not have a well curated critical mind that happened much later I just enjoyed film and I enjoyed talking to my friends about it and it does feel like unless you're on like internet forums which are the worst place to discuss films and television you don't get that experience anymore and curate in your case

curating films must have been so gratifying it's you know it's like you get to share things you love with other people that's that's the best no it was really fun and when I got to college you know the way because I didn't know what I wanted to study obviously you can tell if I was enjoying humanities

it's like four things um but you know but I started working in the there was a they ran a cinema screening Anyway, there were two cinemas at the college, and they read a film, what's it called? Anyway, a series, film series throughout the year. So they would program all these films and they would order in the prints. And so we were projecting on film on both 16 and 35.

And so I immediately, you know, signed up to be. And it was a, you know, it was a paid job as well. So, yeah, so I was a student film projection. in the series and it was through doing that that then people were like, oh, are you know, are you interested in studying film? What are you going to be a film? Sousy manager? And it had just never occurred to me before that it was actually something you could study. I literally just thought it was, you know, yeah, like I said before, it was a treat. It was something, you know, we got to do when we had done all our schoolwork or whatever. Yeah. That does seem to be a common refrain amongst DPs that I've

interviewed is like it feels kind of corny. But everyone going like, oh, I didn't know people made movies. I thought they just existed, you know. They would show up. And then they were there. There's people there. And the thing is like, yeah, you see the credits, but, you know, especially if you grew up watching older films, which we did as well. My sister and I were just huge, like, you know, old movie musicals.

And they, you know, they would list like two names, right? Yeah. And up front, too, so you forget about them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, so I guess I was aware that, you know, there was somebody behind the camera and somebody to do the costumes, but it literally just, none of that clicked into place until I got to college. Yeah. I did want to ask a boring technical question that I'm sure we can get through.

And that is, I did see that you're shooting Alexa 65 and LF. And I was wondering what the sort of unique challenges with working with such a large sensor on. and what benefits does it bring you? Because there's a big, there's a lot of misinformation about larger sensors giving you a certain look. Most people don't actually know what that means.

But, you know, they're thinking lenses. They're not thinking sensors. So I was wondering your hands-on experience what does working on those larger format cameras give you? And what do you have to think about more than Super 35? Yeah, I mean, you, what you have to think about? more. You sort of have to, I mean, like, you know, similar to shooting anamorphic say, you have to sort

of consider the focus plot. Yeah. One one ain't mud figured out. It's on a 105. You know, and depth of field. So, yeah, there's a lot of consideration to that. Interestingly, you know, because we had those two cameras to choose from, if we were doing a shot that was quite the effects heavy, they would often want us to do that on the LF, just because of how that sensor got and how we had more room top and bottom for them to, you know, stabilize or wiggles stuff around or whatever. So that was interesting because it was always sort of my default to be like, oh, if we're doing this big shot, we'll do it on the big camera. And that wasn't always, you know, the best for all departments. So, yeah, so if we're doing something BFX heavy,

then we'd have that discussion and weigh those. pros and cons. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting to shoot a show with two cameras because you are always sort of having to do the math in your head about like, okay, on the 65, I want it to be on this lens. But then if something happens last minute and suddenly I need to send this A camera off to do this other shot and the B camera has got to do this shot, then that means it should be on this lens. And so, you know, so we had like, the assistance made us. I'm, you know, I it around my neck, but the little lens chart that sort of had the, you know, what all the focal links and then the equivalence, yeah, because that was definitely just something you had to get

used to, really. So, yeah. Were you using, oh, go ahead. No, no, you go ahead. Okay. Were you using, because obviously with the 65, your lens choices are, you know, really reduced because there's not a lot of lenses that have a imaging circle big enough. Were you using the same lenses across both cameras, or did you have two different sets and just lean into their strengths? Yeah, we had two different sets. So they were both DNA lensing, you know, I mean, by, they're lovely. But yeah, one was made specifically for the Alexa 65, one set and the other set, specifically, well, they were LF, many LFs, DNA LFs, yeah. Yeah.

When we went to Senegere a few months ago, I got to peruse all the R-A lenses and those DNAs are just like, they're too good. They're too good? No, they're lovely. And I have to say, so, yeah, so what I was going to say before, and then I stopped myself because I also just never sure what I'm allowed to say, but we have changed the format this year. I won't tell you to what.

I'll leave that a surprise for... It's Alexa 3 or Venice. I bet it's Venice. Link if it's Venice. But basically, so we changed the format and so we changed the lens in. And part of that was because we put the DNAs on this new format and they just, we didn't, we lost a lot of what was interesting on the large format from last year. So we went a different direction. That's all I'll say. I'm going to cut this part out, but now it's definitely the Alexa 35.

Do you have the SiniLens manual? I do. Yeah, I do. Yeah. Greatest publication in a decade. I know. I know. And I met those guys when I went to the ASE Awards. And I was like, I have your book. And they were like, cool. We have your show. It was just like, you know, this is really nice. Yeah, Holbin is. I interviewed Holben. And I, I, I, I, I, I suppose I can consider him a friend.

Now we've hung out enough. But he's definitely, I've watched him interact with people at a few events where they're like gushing over, you know, they're being hyper nerdy. And I just watch him go like, yes, great. Uh-huh. You know, dude's probably tired at this point. But the thing with that book is just like, you know, just like your BSC book, they have to add the new, you know, that book, they'll never be finished. right they'll just have to keep reissuing it because people are making lenses these days like nobody's business it's what i mean luckily the first half of that book is pretty evergreen but yeah the second

half of all just like all the stuff about every lens it's ever made and i've like i got some lenses that i was supposed to review and i open the book you know basically just going to copy it for my review and they're not in there and i was like you got to be kidding me these guys spent like literally like half a decade on this thing and they they're going to like you said they're going to have to put inserts in or something It is wild. Do you pay much attention to how many new lenses are coming out all? It seems like, not to be derogatory, but it seems like China's just kicking out lenses every five minutes. There's a new one coming out of there. The optics companies over there going nuts. Yeah. No, I mean, I feel like every time I blink, somebody is like, oh, have you tried this? And I'm like, oh, never even heard of that. Okay, cool. but you know it's it's an exciting time i uh yeah it's more exciting on cameras cameras cameras got really they've leveled off yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no it's it's very much more

exciting than cameras i agree do you uh oh we're coming up on time look at my notes um good heavens did we talk about all this oh i did want to ask um is there have you had to uh sort of change the way you think about maybe exposure or just general shooting philosophy when shooting for television versus something that is theoretically going straight to streaming. It's a good question. There has been a lot of recent discussion about exposure, but sort of more generally than that, just how dark is too dark.

Is that the nature of your question, sort of? I mean, not specifically. The only reason I mentioned that is because obviously with, you never know how fast someone's internet is. You never know if their TV is calibrated or anything. So like a lower, if they're getting a lower bit rate image, any amount of dark is too dark. You know, and as cinematographers, we love to have like one little slash a light. But I know especially with Game of Thrones, there's a little dark. That's not specifically what I'm talking about.

But just what are the considerations when thinking about a streaming. show versus something that's going to terrestrial television, if there are any. Well, actually, to be honest with you, sorry, I think I actually misheard the question because in my head, I was just thinking, like, is there a difference between TV versus versus film that's meant for theatrical? And that's sort of, that's where I separate.

Yeah, in my mind, there's no, there's no separation anymore between streaming and TV because the dolls just seems like, you know, it's one thing and people can, people can, people can watch the same show you know both all the ways right so so but yeah but really the the tricky thing i think for um for people who are wanting to shoot television shows like movies is just that we have zero control over over yeah over people watch them and and and therefore everything can be too dark to somebody who's you know looking at well you know what i'm saying so that that's that is that is really

difficult well and the other issues like i was coloring this one music video and uh where's my voice going oh sorry um i was calling this music video and the notes kept coming back like oh it's too saturated it's too red it's too saturated and i'm i basically dropped the red channel out and they're like no still the skin looks weird i was like what the hell and then i was talking to um lark and seepil disciple shot beef and everything everywhere. And he was like, oh, are they watching it on a MacBook? I was like, yeah. And he goes, yeah, you can't do that. You got to have them find an iPad or something because the Red Channel on that's all goofed up. And I was like, really? So I have them do that. Sure enough. They're like, oh, actually, yeah, can we go back to version two? We're on

version like eight at this point. Fuck. Yeah. It's, yeah, it's interesting. Whenever I do any remote grading, it's like iPad. Make sure you watch on your iPad. And then it seems to work. So we everybody should just get iPads. Yeah, I guess that new iPad Pro, I'm not, I'm not an Apple fan by any means, but the new chips are amazing. And I guess that iPad Pro just has an amazing, like very accurate screen. Yeah. Yeah. No, I have found that mine is quite good. Yeah. Well, like you said, you've got a hard out. And apparently so does my voice. So we can wrap it up there but um i would love to have you back and and keep chat with you um because i i feel like i could probably come up with at least a few more questions uh so when you're uh

how about when you're done working on this show you can come back and then uh we don't have to talk about that show we can talk about whatever pencils sounds good sounds good pencils it is yeah well thank you for having me and sorry i have to go but early call times etc etc yeah i watched the sun go down behind you so i don't know i know you can just be the whole room get dark and this i i was sort of playing around with the light levels in this place before and the overhead lighting it's atrocious so that's why it's just i got to say one of the funnest things and i've never actually mentioned this but something i look forward to is every dp's approach to how uh invested they are in their zoom lighting obviously i send it a little bit with this but like uh

yeah sometimes it's like straight i've had people just wander around their house with their iPhone and then Some people have had like full on like, yeah, I plugged my LF into this and I'm full sky panels. I'm like, bro, it's Zoom. It's fun. No, but you, you've done your Zoom very well. I'm impressed. But yeah, this is, this is hotel room of living. So, yeah, I'm just all huddled by the window.

Well, like I said, thank you so much and have fun working tomorrow. Thank you so much, Kenny. Thanks for the chat. And, you know, talk. Frame and Reference is an Al-Bod production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. As this is an independently funded podcast,

we rely on support from listeners like you. So if you'd like to help, you can go to buy me a coffee.com slash frame and ref pod. We really appreciate your support. And as always, thanks for listening. Thank you.