Frame & Reference Podcast - 116: "Foundation" DP Owen McPolin, ISC

Episode Date: October 19, 2023

This week on Frame & Reference we have an absolutely INCREDIBLE conversation with the amazing Owen McPolin! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow F&R on all your favorite social platforms!⁠⁠⁠⁠���⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenan-Millan, and you're listening to Episode 116 with Owen Apollin, DP of Foundation Season 2. Enjoy. So the normally, well, I'll just start the way I normally start, which is to ask if you have been watching anything with the downtime and stuff. Or I don't even know if you've had any downtime because I know the UK is still kind of working. No, no, I have. I have been watching stuff. I have actually, there's a few things I've been watching. I actually have a bit of downtime because mostly when you're working, it's the last thing in the evening you really want to do is watch anything.

Right. It's been engrossed in kind of storytelling and imagery all day and you just want to just let your eyes rest for a while and take it easy. And about the day. And also because your kind of brain is fried, you just want to unwind. So I have been watching a couple of things. I've been watching the bear. Great show.

Oh, my God. Unless you have a family that is just like that, then it is PTSD-inducing. Yeah, but I come from a family of six kids from the West of Ireland, so it's not dissimilar from a kitchen in Ireland than it would be there in Chicago. Sure. I mean, but it's really well written. It's so good.

Performances, and the look of it is really good. It's really hard to make something that distressed look good. And it's short. It packs a punch. It's just really good storytelling and really interesting characters. Like, they're doing it so well. I've, I've just started season two episode one. Oh.

Yeah. You're in for a right. Don't say anything. Don't know, no, no. Don't blow it, man. There's a something, we'll have to get back in touch when you get to around the middle. Okay, okay. Yeah.

So, I mean, it's really good. And so I'm really looking forward to it. I mean, it's just so well written, so well constructed. And, well, I love the look of the pilot. and how it rests and I think episode seven season one is a oner and you don't even know it's a oneer

because it's so well choreographed it's you know because sometimes oners can be self-conscious and they're not very well articulated sometimes because people say oh did you see this oneer and it's all about that as opposed to what's actually going on and in this case in the kitchen

what's going on and how it leads to that moment at the end of that shot. I think it's 20 minutes long, I think. But it felt like two minutes. Yeah. Well, it's that whole era of Wonders for the sake of it. I felt like never, because that, that, what was that? Like 2000, basically when we got digital cameras, people were like, oh, shit, we can shoot the human

colleagues now. Yeah. But I, you know, I always thought like, oh, sometimes they're just trying to be flashy. but in the case of that episode you know like this is just classic sort of story pacing but when you have a cut that's a natural point for the audience to breathe

but if you have no cuts it's mad stressful and that whole episode well a lot of the bear but that whole episode is mad stressful you know so it like it absolutely fits the story and also because there would have been plenty of other opportunities in that show in those

episodes to do something like that but they kept the powder dry and they waited until that moment to do it. So, number one, you once expecting it. Two, you were just, okay, let's just get into this. I know there's going to be, I think the synopsis said there's a little bit of stress in the kitchen for this episode. Talk about the understatement of the year.

My wife was saying, though, she had worked in kitchens in the past. She said, listen, it's never that stressful in the kitchen, in real kitchens. But then you think about the character, and you think about him and all his colleagues and what they're going through in their lives. You go, listen, it's not really about the kitchens, about what's going on in their lives. And that's so interesting. Anyway, it's really good.

I can't. If I keep going on about it or not about it, if you let me. But it was just really well done. And hats off, like to the DOPs, particularly. And the performers, that's hard to do, really hard. Well, to the first point, like I said, this is the podcast to rant on. So whatever you want to, you go for it.

Yeah, yeah. But secondly, did you know who Maddie Matheson was before that show? Nope. Nope. Being the big tattooed guy? No, I didn't. Tell me about him. So he's a chef.

He's a real chef. He's the only real chef on the show. And he plays a plumber. Yes. And he's the fixer, right? Yeah. And he's a great character, that fella. There's some really good.

I mean, all the lines are good, but he has such. Like, he just pops up now and again, shows up, fixes things like when mixers go wrong or they blow the main fuse or whatever. And then it just gets to the point where, and I hope he has more in season two. I'm not sure. I mean, I'm very much looking forward to that. So who was it? I think he's a producer as well, so he put himself in a little bit. Yeah, well, I mean, you also know the authenticity of that show because it has not just a lexicon, but it has just the feeling of being.

in a kitchen that's stressful and that tired and when something like that has to change when you have to people have step up to a different kind of pace and when in story terms when the main character comes in and takes over the restaurant from his deceased brother it's all

pre-established institutionalised characters who obviously not really happy to have this new guy in and slowly the change happens and and then it comes to that climax at that moment in that episode. So it's brilliant, brilliant. And what else am I looking? I'm looking forward to the creator, which is a new movie coming out soon.

Oh yeah. I very well aware of it. So and there's something really interesting about how that looks and there's something really interesting about resonance about the story, which I'm really interested in. And I think they're going to do it really well. Now, I know Greg Fraser shot it and the director. has kind of history with him. So the creative collaboration, I'm very interested in seeing what's going to come out on

that. Yeah. Well, apparently Greg kind of offloaded a lot of the work to this other DP Oren Sauffer, who I think he's an American, but he's around my age, I think, is mid-30s. And I don't know if you saw this, but I actually just texted someone about this 15 minutes before we started talking, which was apparently, I'm still waiting for. final. I'm going to try to get a hold of Orrin or someone or Greg. Yeah. I've been told I'm allowed to interview Greg. I just can't get a hold of him.

But apparently they shot that whole film on the FX3. Yes. Sony came. And the Sony, I don't know how online you are, hopefully not as much as I am. But boy, the Sony fan boys are really annoying about it. I think with camera, now I can make the reader. You've got, you just have good. glass in the front of it, it'll capture something as stunning as that. So, but look, listen, bottom line, the box, I mean, I'm really an advocate of this. It's great having a fantastic

camera and a proven camera system that everyone understands and knows. But when you, when you unencumber yourself with that and you try something else and you've got good glass on the front of it, you've got good storytellers at the back of it, then people will figure out, you get enough brains in the room and enough problem solvers, if any hiccups happen with the camera system because it's you or there's different issues with there, whatever, they'll solve it. They will. And that's the same case with visual effects directing Misen Sen, the floor, working out a shot, laying it out on the floor. All that stuff can be fixed. If you get enough people in the room going and go, well, we have no idea how to do this. No clue. But let's try something. And you never know it might actually

be quite good. So that's what's really interesting. And yes, brilliant that Sony have that now to trumpet with such a, I think, a really high-profile film. But that shouldn't be the end all of it. It should be something else, which is, is the picture any good? Image quality, if that starts getting in the way, of course, it'll knock you out of the story.

But I don't think that's going to happen. Right. I think, I think, I think, I think it's great that they're trying something else with a different, with an on, not, not, not conventional camera system, but a camera system that wouldn't be used to normally and film that big, that budget. Well, it doesn't even have SDI, you know, so you've got to be real careful. Yeah. Like, wiggling that, you know, but. Yeah, but God forbid what they did in the 70s and 80s, we didn't have SDI. And God forbid, you had to look through this hole, which actually had an optical image.

Oh, my God, forbid. What are we going to do? FX3 doesn't even have an eyepiece. You have to use HDMI or the back little thingy. But I will say to your point, like, that's something we brought up a million times on this podcast is like, it doesn't, although I do want to bring something up to you said in a different interview. But production design and costuming really will put you far apart when it comes to the image more. Like, production designers get the, or DPs get the credit for what production designers do all the time. yeah and that yeah you know and i know that you get a good enough design in front of the camera

like dops they have they have very little work to do if the design is as it is yeah and i must say i found that personally speaking with foundation yeah but particularly in the look of that and a couple of other pictures like i was thinking about it the other day like what is the most unproduction design picture that I remember even watching as a kid and things like I don't know the French connection

right or something that is is works yes scripts the selection of the locations and that's it and the choices they made there were brilliant

and so similarly if you have a highly designed piece it's what's in front of the camera if it's good and it works Jesus you'll have it'll be so much easier to tell the story. If you're bumping up against the design

and you're noticing it or you're feeling it or I don't know and it just knocks you out of it just kind of pushes the cue ball a bit to the left or the right. It just, you become aware of it and then you've lost it.

It's over. You know it? Yeah. Well, I was going to, it's actually funny you brought it up because between something you need to know about me, I'm just ping ponging.

My brain goes everywhere. So we'll probably bounce Yes, things. Same here. That's what happens here too. Go ahead. Yeah. It's funny you brought up the creator in because I do feel like the creator and foundation have similar, maybe not sort of themes, but also like I were saying, the production design and the costuming both look very, not similar in style necessarily, but similar in attention to detail. I'm very excited for the creator because of what I've seen in something like foundation. yeah well um if like first thing sometimes i do when i start a gig is i go straight to the production designer i go straight to the costume designer with the director hopefully and sit down with them and go listen push all the textures you can into it push all the detail you want into it because

our cameras are going to see everything unless you're specifically telling us we cannot see something because there's a lack of detail here we haven't quite figured that out yet, then you go to the makeup artists and you speak to the, um, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, it's a problem in the morning. And one of the actors or the actresses has got a serious, I don't know, herpes simplex right here. Tell me. Or tell me that there's, there's, there's something going on or they make feel bit pale or there's something. I don't know. Could be anything. Just let me know. Because then, I can do something about it. And I can think of, I don't know, the process of, with the director, what are we going to take it from? Should we actually concentrate this side? Should we shoot front on?

There's something in the design that you want to highlight. Tell us, you know, communicate it. And then we can make a feature of it. And that's what's really interesting because then you kind of, then they go, oh, brilliant, that's great. I thought, you know, I'm going to be a person who services you or the director. I said, no, no, you design and you push all the stuff you need into it to tell that particular character's story

and then we will highlight it or hold off in it if you want to hold a secret later. All those things, that line of communication I think is really great. And that's what's exciting for me. It also makes a bond between you and the performers, the designers, the hair and makeup designers, costume designs, all that stuff. Then it will start kind of working together. as opposed to, oh, I'm just going to do this and you're going to capture it and then I walk away from it or vice versa.

It's nice when it kind of all rolls together. And I think like even with the bear and say the creator and a couple of other jobs that are that I'm looking forward to seeing soon, I kind of go, I want to watch that. There's something interesting coming up on this. I like it. It resonates at me. I don't know why, but it just makes it just makes. Me as a viewer more interested, Rudd and a cinematographer.

I hate looking at films as the cinematographer. God, it's so boring. And people always ask me that. What did you see in that that made you... I said, I can't remember a bloody shot in the whole thing. It doesn't matter. If it's any good, I start to... I remember for what it is

as an engrossing story. Yeah. But it thinks, you know, I can see all the areas that are problematic. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's a lot to unpack that I think was excellent. Like one, to your point, like I think early on as DPs, a lot of people think like, oh, it's all about shot selection. It's all about lenses. But it really is about celebrating the work of everyone else. Obviously, the actors, but like you were saying, the costumers, the, the production designers, the, anything in front of it. It's more about carrying their stuff forward more so than imposing yourself. But to your point about not remembering shots, I'm the same. same way, except I went and saw a haunting in Venice a couple of nights ago. Yeah.

Boy, that they, they make some bold choices in that film. Everything is framed like that. You know, there's, they're all shooting on like a 12 millimeter the whole time. Like, it's very, I mean, it looks good. It's Harris Zambar Lucas, who I actually interviewed on this podcast. He did other stuff with Kenneth Branagh on Bell. Yes, they work together a lot, yeah. Great guy.

I love him so much. But when I saw his name pop up at the end, because I wasn't sure, I was like, I got to call him again about this because I was sitting there going cool, cool, cool, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also they because they have a really good relationship

but they worked together for a while probably and I'm only guessing this. I know their editor, Una Nikanila, she's an Irish editor that works with Branagh a lot. And she says of her interaction with him

it's a very collaborative process. He really enjoys that process. She speaks plainly. She tells him really clearly what she likes and doesn't like in certain things and makes edits accordingly. And I think that freedom, that collaboration where you

imbuse someone with responsibility to do their best, rather than just being a pure dictat, that's what makes it interesting. And I can probably see that in the cinematographer's relationship with the director and movies like that, that if people have collaborated for

a few pictures, you kind of, you start to you start to just not think like them, but you become unencumbered by your own ego and you just want to riff with that director. And it becomes a far more collaborative and exciting process. Like a few days, a few weeks into a season of, or a foundation, I worked with her. She's a fantastic director, Roxanne Dawson, and I've worked with her on all the episodes, mostly a foundation. along with Goyer but

particularly with Roxanne she has this lovely kind of talent to allow the cinematographer to be as open and free in their thoughts as you want. So you'd come in one day

and you'd sit down across in the office and we're prepping a certain scene and the AD Owen McGee is sitting opposite. He's working out schedule depending on, you know, the approach to our scene. Are we going to need a long time, a short time, when are we going to do it, what resources we need? And we'd start riffing off each other. I'd say to Roxanne, listen, what if you're taking this from this person's

perspective? Who's the perspective of the character? What do you want to tell here? And then she'd say something back and then I'd go, well, maybe, maybe you should, and maybe you should do it this way and then I'd stand up and we'd pace the room and then she'd pace and then you'd just get into this rhythm of actually trying to kind of work the scene out and then she'd go away and then she'd storyboard and she'd come back and present it and then we'd work it out again so it's like an ongoing process it's not like the director just says here it is here's a storyboard here's what I'm going to shoot and here's the coverage it's it's a lot more freer and it makes it far more interesting, and sometimes McGee just turns around and goes, I love the way that you

just riff off each other and it just works because it makes the story, like when you see the final cuts, you can see the story that she wants to tell. And we've all pitched in. All the actors obviously have performed and she's a former actress herself, so she know how to communicate with them and get them in their mind where they need to be for the character and yet in the back of her mind she still recalls the conversation of we had all those months ago and so when she puts it up on the floor she'd look over to the corner and look at me and I go yeah yeah that's what we discussed it's good yeah and then if if it's if it's drifting in a different direction she doesn't even look at me she just pull it back to where it needs to go so that we have we have

have the performers where they are so the rig we've built will work and the thoughts we had will will will adhere to her regional idea so it's really interesting that's kind of one step she steps I step another she steps forward and and it just goes like that I don't know if I'm being articulated enough in what I'm describing that's the process and that's really interesting and that's unique I think every director's relationship with their camera person is always unique but and when it works really fluidly like that makes your job so much easier because then you have times for thought processes and you're not worried that this isn't going to come out how I expected you you're free to make it make it better on the day

based on the plan or if she wants to throw it out entirely we we know that we trust each other enough to go, okay, let's just try this something, try something slightly different on this. But that actually doesn't happen because what you've laid down as a template before that normally works. So it's interesting, you know, and I think camera and directors and storytellers, if they work together and get out of the way, get out of the way in terms of lighting and camera and just let the story be told naturally and it's very hard to tell people how to do this it's really hard to describe it you the story comes more freely from the script um um that sounds like Eric but do you know what I mean no I do actually it's it's something that

it you're 100% right it's very difficult to explain and uh it's something that took me years, I'm going to go ahead and say eight years after college, after going to film school, to finally understand the flow state that you're speaking of, you know, which you can't reach if there's if there's onset, for instance, friction with your director. If you guys aren't on the same page, it's much more difficult. But also, um, the aspect of trusting yourself. I think you, it's very difficult to trust yourself to know that your, your first instance. Something that we've said a billion times on this podcast is technically correct is not always correct. It's more about the way you feel about what's happening. And if that feels good and it doesn't feel like that's friction, then it usually is good. And you need to learn to trust that. Yeah. And I think, God forbid, unfortunately, that only comes a lot of the time with experience.

And with the experience, and I wish I had tapped myself in his shoulder years. ago about this, but you don't know because it's cart before the horse or it's an oxymoron. You can't really tell yourself this until you have the experience, is that if you relax, you can trust your instincts, whereas the noise that gets into your head, if you're not relaxed, will distract you and be discursive to your train of thought. And because of that, you're less focused, you're more working on the minutiae of a scene as opposed to the holistic element of it, which can be a certain point that you're trying to drive through into the scene or the narrative or a certain cue of lighting or a certain camera move. All that stuff will come far more naturally

if you have clarity and less noise and pressure and friction on the set, and particularly with your director or your producer or your showrunner if you have that your expression what you're giving to the show comes far more freely and actually

you actually enjoy your job way more and if you enjoy it you just get better at it if you don't enjoy it and excuse the friendship if you're just fucked up that day or it's just an awful experience you're fighting against that and none of the

language you're trying to get across or the grammar you're trying to get it's going to come through on camera it just never does you're going to something awkward or sticky about that scene we've got to move on and then it's too late whereas if if you if you stop for a moment you go we're missing a trick here

I don't know what it is I'm sorry to say but we're missing something then if the director or the showrunner or the producer on set is honest enough to go yeah you know you're right or the actor feels it okay have another the crack at it.

I'm going to suggest this. Can we do that? And normally most people would say, yeah, absolutely. Let's have it a go. It's another five minutes. It's not going to break the bank. It's not going to ruin our schedule. And then people relax a little bit. And then off you go. And then, oh, we've caught it.

We've got the hook. And off we go. A quick aside, there was a DOP I knew in the UK. And she was doing her first big job. at the time and she was working with a really funny Welsh gaffer and very experienced, really good at his job and it was the first day, first shot, first scene, the whole thing. She was very nervous and they rehearsed a scene and the director turned to say, right, there you go. And she was absolutely kind of, oh God, okay, I know what I have to do here but just give me a minute and

And the gaffer lent over to her and said, put it all up, put all the set up on 246s. She looked at me, what do you mean? Put everything up and put the desks, put all this furnished up on 246s. Get the standbys in to do it. So, standbys all went in and they started lifting all the desks and everything up by two four, like two inches. But it gave her ten minutes to think. Well, they all did that stuff. Oh, they all ran in and lifted it all.

It made no material difference to the scene whatsoever, except all the actors were two inches shorter. but she then was able to think hang on this is where I need to put key light and that's where I need to fill and that's where all the other and I'm going to dim it to that level and she had it

and off she went and she did a stunning job anyway but it shows that if you just declutter your head of the machinery and the noise you can actually start

and be more creative because you're letting your lying your ability to express yourself as a camera person much more clearly. Yeah. Well, it's like the, you know, the higher stress jobs, you know, the military or whatever. Because I'm American, of course, I'm thinking military. But, you know, they always train. Is your point of reference, Kenny?

Yeah. But they always, they always train them to never focus. Like all the weapons, systems, everything is all based on gross motions. There's no fiddly, nothing, because. If you're getting shot at, you're not going to, and, you know, a film set can be not that hectic, but, you know, in a similar way, it can be very hectic and very, so if you just knock everything down to gross motor functions, gross brain functions, it's actually better. And then you lean on, you lean on your tech team, you lean on the gaffers, you lean on everyone else to fiddle.

Yeah. Because, because onset crews live on repetition. They live on a system. They live in a hierarchical system where. They know the order, they know the process inside out to such a degree that when you come on set the first time, it's the first time DOP, you have all that experience at your fingertips. And sometimes you just, all you need to do is turn the tap on and walk away and just let that happen a bit and then just steer it gently rather than starting to pull all the levers. and then by executing that just steer it badly

and and that's a fine example of it really as you say the micro the macro of it is is sometimes an incumbents to the actual progress of telling that scene and telling shot effectively shot scene story anyway it's interesting

Yeah, well, a long time ago, it would have taken so much hard takeaway. Yeah. Well, I think the big issue, especially now, is like when you're new, not necessarily even young, but when you're new, you know, technology is fun. Technology is cool. And the fiddly things are, you know, and I don't know if you're this way, but I love to learn. And that concept of 80% of the work or 20% of the work. or 20% of the work gets you 80% of the way done doesn't it's so simple that you don't you don't feel like you're learning anything now the next step after that is go do it and it's like well i don't

feel i don't feel ready enough so you start focusing on all these little like yeah photometrics and like you know metering and just like oh if i get this exact lens and this thing and now i now now i can go that's the big one too is like waiting for permission you know oh once i take this class then i can be a DP or why this camera, then I can, you know, that you'll always, that's the first step to failure is waiting for things, basically waiting for, letting things get in your way, like excitedly letting them in. No, I agree. I think, and I think most people who are starting out, because there is such an advancement

of technology. and because actually there is a huge amount of resources now say online to learn those things you can get lost in the wormhole of that you can you can just dig down dig down but sometimes it's actually as you say the practice of doing it the practice of making those mistakes of actually working having learned the basics of certain things it could be like sometimes I just, I sit down and I watch some YouTube videos on just color grading and what some of

the best color grading techniques are. Darren Moistin, if you don't know them. Yeah, well, him and a few other colorists that I know have produced a lot of videos, particularly you know, like, I mean, it was

baselight back in the day when I actually first started. Now it's moved on to Tevinci was of and all the rest and then their free software and all the rest and you can actually do it on your laptop at home. Back when I started

it was a very expensive process and it made it your time with the colorist quite valuable because you only had them for a short period of time it was an expensive process and your ability to learn what the process was was limited

now the resources are far more open to you and you can learn a way more of that yourself but as I said you can go down a wormhole but until you actually shoot imagery yourself and then actually apply some of those

things that you learn that you'll make those mistakes and you go well actually that's not the thing for me I think the way to do this is actually collaborate with the colourists let them take what I have and give me an entirely different, an entirely different take in it.

And they, sometimes it will come up with even fantastic and even more superlative ideas than it was ever taught initially. Yeah. Well, and the other thing, too, is like, so I learned, I went to film school before I went to college for more film school, but we learned on 16 millimeter. And so that was the thing. Anytime we had a question, we, luckily enough, so this was New York Film Academy, they would just keep us drunk on roles of film, you know.

So they were just like, we'd be like, how do we do this? They'd be like, I don't know, go shoot some tests. We were on the Universal Studios back lot. You know, we had access to us. Go shoot some tests. Go figure it out. And then when we get it back from the lab, you'll know what you did wrong. And I think that that's something that I do think DPs on this podcast have been half

and half on it. But like that time between getting the rushes back sometimes is very valuable versus having it right now, you know, where it's like, yeah. netpicked to death potentially. But also the period of time, so say you shoot something and you wait for the next morning for your dailies and you watch those dailies. And when I shot, I mean, the last time I shot film was 2004, right? And sitting down watching those dailies, it was a complete reinterpretation of what we had shot

and what we had witnessed and taken place. the previous day, when we captured it, and then when we saw it on screen, it was so much more wonderful than we'd ever imagined it could be captured like. Now with the immediacy of digital, that timeline is so much more compressed. It is immediate, as you see, and your real-time manipulation is a whole other process. It's more immediate. I mean, I have to say that I am a fully convinced and converted digital person. There's no point not to be. Yeah, and I find, I went to see licorice pizza

about two years ago when it came out. I remember seeing it in Cinnamon, Dublin, and it was a 35-mill print, and I remember noticing that the center of the print, obviously when it had either, it was either during the projection or during the dupe process, the centre of the image was out of focus.

And that, I presume, is an artifact of the idea that when they bulk printed those prints, either the labs did it too quickly, it was either a bad projection, the experience that it takes to get film, printed, duped, interposed into Negg, all that stuff

and get it projected on screen some of the experience is lost now and so the experience I had in cinema was pretty bad because I just went oh man this is this film was shot on film for a reason

it was then projected badly and it ruined the entire process it ruined the enjoyment of the picture for me which was a real shame because I think it was a great film and I love Paul Thomas Sannison, but it wrecked my experience of it.

And I know that he loves film and he's a Thun Purist and he's a brilliant director. But the end result, it just would put me out of the story. Yeah. I mean, that was one advantage to living in Los Angeles was when Oppenheimer came around.

I guess it's still in theaters. But the Universal Studios IMAX is technically the IMAX. It's the one that Nolan, like, finalized it on, was in that. So I went ahead and I went to that one. Now it was also the only one I could get tickets. It was that or Chinese theater. But I had heard so many stories of other people going to other showings, 70 millimeters. And same thing would happen. It would the, the neg would break halfway through or there'd be a massive scratch or something. They'd have to convert them to, you know,

switch to the digital projector and everyone get bummed out. And it's like, well, did you find film an acquisition? I can see there being a, a good reason for. But projection because then unfortunately you lose control of the quality of the image

sometimes in the theatres you go to. You can acquire it in the highest resolution possible and you can all the processes up to that point when you release it into the world then you are in your control but once it

leaves in a can and goes to a theatre, then you're really reliant on what happens at there. And the weaving or the scratching or the change of loops and all of that, the change of reels,

all of that, you are susceptible to it going wrong. And that just doesn't happen in digital, unfortunately, because you're still in control of the quality all the way down to the presentation.

Went up, we got a new telly I don't know a year ago. It's got Dalby Vision on it. I don't know, 40 inch screen. It's incredible image quality. And I know that the imagery that we captured is all has a certain level of quality and maintains that quality

all the way from the very capture to the final distribution of it and the display of it. And you can't necessarily guarantee that with film these days. It's a lot of that knowledge has been lost now. Well, and that's one reason. One of the reasons why I got a PlayStation 5 was because it has a 4K Blu-ray player. And I've got, I just counted because I have to buy a new shelf,

but I have something like 340 some odd Blu-rays. And a hand, well, probably more than that because I wasn't counting the box sets. but like and because like streaming you know with a fast enough connection you can it looks very nice but physical media the the data pipe is so much thicker and you really at least i can but like you really can tell and especially in the sound too well sounds a little bit easier to do but even so it's there's a staunch different you have a great sound system a really nice tv and a physical Blu-ray 4K or otherwise, and it really shines. And I love watching it that way, especially like the Criterians where they really do a good job of, what do you call it, restoring anything.

Restoring, yeah. They can clean up those necks, which a lot of the time we're in pretty bad shape. They can denonise them and they can actually bring them back to almost where they originally were when they were first printed. I remember seeing a persona. on the criterion version a few years ago and it was like, wow, incredible. It was a digital projection now in Dublin but it was a scan of the original NAG.

It was incredible. Like, anyway, it's a great movie, but it looked much better than I remember ever seeing it on TV like in the 80s when it would have been shown on RTE. Anyway. So capture, I think you're right.

there is capture it if you want to capture on film iMacs any format there even in super 16 super 35 whatever and get it processed and then if you could distribute it digitally and i know i know people would have it out with you for um it being a non-purest version of the intention but i think sometimes you just you miss out on still you know well you got, at least in, again, a huge privilege to live in Los Angeles, but you've got places like Tarantino's Theater, the Dubave, where he only projects film. So if you really want that, and that was actually, that actually, I've mentioned this before, but like I, the 20th anniversary of the Matrix happened. 30th? Yeah. 20th. And I big, massive Matrix fan me. So I was like,

oh, shit, I'm going to go see that. So they showed it in the Dolby, not the Dolby Theater, but like, you know, when you go to the AMC to have like the Dolby room. So I watched it and it was incredible. And then right after that, I watched it at the new Beverly, the original film print. And it was just really awesome to see like, all right, that's the exact. Like this is what this movie looked like in 1999. This is what Bill Pope wants it to look like today and seeing the difference and seeing, you know, like little minutia, little silly things that like I never would have thought of because I watched the movie 100,000 times, you know. Yeah.

Like the one thing that stood out to me, the digital projection was that first part where they're on the phone call, you know, the camera goes flying through the numbers. And I always thought it was just black back there, but there's actually very, very tiny numbers going by. Really? And it's just silly stuff like that that I was like, yeah. I mean, some VFX person put it back there and we never saw it on the film print, but we see it in the digital scale. I know. And inversely, a friend and I went to see Rat of Cannes. and it came out

and we went to see it as a digital projection in Dublin in a really good theatre and called Estella Cinema in Rathmines in Dublin and I remember the movie I remember seeing it in the 80s as a projection in our home cinema in the west of Ireland in Trilly and I'm totally enjoying it

really loved it blah blah blah and then when we saw it literally last summer when it came out again we could see it's we could see all the set of the details the yes the problematic details in sets and makeup

or Spock's ears all of those things were far more apparent than they should have been because the film dupes would have smoothed out all of those little creases and so there is a counter argument as well

you know you're 100% right the two that really stood out to me were in the Matrix, that initial scene where Trinity kicks all the cops in half, you can just tell the walls are made out of plywood. You can tell it's just four plywood flats. Like, they just painted it. It's not even, like, it's not connected to the floor. It's just bad. And then the Nebuchadnezzar looks great. And then I think, yeah, the, what do you call it? The lobby scene. Similarly, like, you can kind of tell, that's not marble. That is. it is. But, you know, it is. But, you know, that's just, it's just, it's just, it enjoyed it. Well, did film back then. Totally. And it endured me to the film even more because it showed my memory of it of the picture was completely distorted. It didn't really matter back then because the picture was so enjoyable. Now, with age and digital technology, in hindsight, you go, look at that. But, but it kind of spoilt.

I still enjoyed it a little bit. I still enjoyed the picture. It's a great picture, but still. It just popped us out of the story and it took a bit. 100%. I did, uh, we, I did want to swing back around to a foundation just because A, I guess we're supposed to, but B, even though I could talk about all that. I just really get to that. Yeah, yeah. But I, so I watched the first half of the first season before, uh, I got distracted doing other stuff. And then when I heard I was going to interview you and actually, what's his name? Katal? What's the other deep... Cahill? Cahill? Yeah, I'm interviewing him tomorrow. So you can talk shit all you want. He won't be able to respond. But I...

Yeah, he's... Anyway, I went scanning through some episodes because I didn't want to ruin it for myself, but I was just kind of blasting through it. And one thing I love about your cinematography is... And actually, there's a second part to this. compliment but I'll get to it at the end um is oh sorry if you don't like compliments

I know I'll do I'll do my best watching Killian Murph in interviews is just brutal yeah no don't be doing that that's just don't go there it's just yeah we can't be dealing with Ari on anyway um but the the uh I was wondering if you or who kind of set this um tone for this heavy window light motivating the majority of like these interior scenes with the brothers and in one of your episodes I think it was eight there's you know like

I guess it's maybe part of the second season in general but the like spaceship that they're all in just this very very natural look but still so very much sci-fi was it a lot of discussion trying to find that or was that just because of the way

the sets were built and well I came onto it at the end of season one and we had to we were shooting in Limerick in Troy Studios and

they'd built all the sets and we were starting to get into all the spaceship stuff because that's just the order in which we shot it and so the ships were built a lot of the ships Roy Cheen

who was a designer had built really beautiful designs and ships of varied sizes and shapes and they all had one thing in common is that he really wanted to see space outside and Chris McLean, our VFX supervisor was very adamant that to create this sense of movement

within the ships, there would be always some reference to planets or star fields or something outside and that would be all posted in. So we were trying to figure out well what's the best way of doing It should just use a basic soft light coming in. Should it just be lit by the controls? What is the emphasis of the light?

I always try to find, just for my own kind of sanity, what can I start with? What can I make, what can I define the ship as? And where would that, where would the source be? So talking to Chris, I said, look, would it really freak you out if I had a really strong source outside? Because, you know, there's going to be some sun somewhere, and it's normally quite pointed

and harsh and very direct, or if it's coming off a planet, it's bounced, but it still can be quite harsh. I think it might be nice to get a sense of movement in the ship, or the ships in general, would you mind if we got one of the hardest lights we can get and stick it on a crane, get an operator on that, and just use that as the key. and sometimes it can be intense sometimes it's less intense but it's always there

and it's always going to move it just gives you the sense that you're moving in space rather than it just being and I don't want to use the reference but sometimes in Star Wars and in the recent shows that have been shot

they're either it's just it's a volume with the star field outside and a very soft light coming in I just wanted to feel a little more real. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In space and particularly, say, in

Christopher Nolan's space, and that movie that he did. Interstellar. They had this, and with Haid van Haughtima, they had a really interesting direct light, and it felt more realistic. So, let's just

riff on that, see what we can get from that, and then just use that as the grammar. And then if the ship is not moving then we can slow that movement down outside or we can articulate as a planet

we can do whatever we want just start there and just build it from there so that kind of started us moving in a certain direction it looked good and no I thought it too over the top and then sometimes Chris would come in and say

listen the ship is stationary it's just jumped in or jumped it might float a little bit so you might have to ease off a little bit on your moving lamp or lamps and then and so we would talk like that and we would we would try and find a way of whatever the effect he's putting on outside there that I would just dial into that and make sure I give him enough or or too much or too or too little I can I could dial that accordingly and then as as we progress to the show that's just kind of how it evolved another cameraman had other different, you know, Carl had his way

and Tico had his different way of doing it. We all kind of settle and that was a good approach. Because it looked good and it seemed to work. No and objected and we just took it from there. Yeah. And it's, it's, yeah, that naturalism and the and also the color contrasts, I've noticed very heavy orange, very heavy blue,

not in a sort of garish way, but just it's a very beautiful contrast, especially like I was saying in the brothers kind of like dining hall, for instance. that orange sunlight coming through contrast with like the greenish blue interior. Yeah. It's very pretty. People like, like you can make contrast all you want with with light and shade and sheer scuro, but you can also do with color.

And there is such, there is some amazing, really nice surfaces in some of those throne rooms and the dining hall and all of those areas. And we thought, let's just embrace the color. Like there can be, you can decide if it's. sunset or midday and you can choose all of that that is fully open to you and you can follow a certain continuity but and if you like there's a dining hall scene that we shot in episode uh two i think it was um when queen sarath comes and has a meal with the um with the cleons for the first time that's actually the one i'm thinking of yeah and so we wanted to do something okay this is a this

is, they're practicing how to coordinate their movements in one scene in a very austere, cold, really kind of, the most monochromatic way you can imagine. And then when Tharhus comes in, let's just turn it all up. Let's just put all the gold cutlery out for her, make a beautiful meal of this, and let's just make it as luxurious and beautiful as we can. So what we decided to do is we'll have the sun setting but by the time the tone of the scene changed at the end when she actually starts

to challenge the Cleons she wants to see there should I say uncanted versions in the tanks below we set the sun so that the scene becomes cool

and a little more drab towards the end so we had a progression for the scene who was a four and a half minute pieces of dialogue around the table So we just wanted to reflect from the positive nature and the supercilious kind of view of royalty.

And then we just took it slowly to the cold end and the more reality towards the end of the scene. So we decided to just do something bit funky for that. Yeah. Oh, it's a gorgeous scene. Were you primarily, was it just like kind of the main light out the window or was there other modifiers inside towards the? well there was one big key outside at 20 t20 and that was on a crane and on a dimmer and then we had a very loud soft box over the top that we effectively dropped the t20 down dimmed it and actually physically dropped it over the period of the scene and then we just slowly brought up I was above them and then brought all the color temperatures to the cool end by the time the scene ended it was it was just done variously lowly um with the gaffer um barry conroy and he was he was talking to barry hair the um board up as the scene went and he had to just make sure that every time the sun disappeared at a

certain point in a certain line and that's what we aim for and so all that communication we had those ideas with david gore he directed that episode and he was happy to let's go down that road that works for me it'll be cool so let's do that and and and he was a very very, again, collaborative, very easy going, okay, give me the ideas, give me all the ideas you want and I'll take some or I'll riff with some of them or I'll go, nah, don't don't like that. We just kept kind of spitballing it until we came out on a solution. Scenes like that or like sometimes you'd make a choice, would this scene look better at night? Would this, would it be nicer? Would it be better than the evening or just a stark

daytime. Like when we were in the canaries we shot out in it's a volcanic island in Fertaventura where we did a lot of the scenes and what's really interesting about that island and the reason why many film crews go there is the contrast is extreme

because all of the landscape is dark because of the volcanic basalt and dark ash and the sky obviously and I don't know what degrees south it is but it's pretty harsh sunlight and so you've got this really great contrast. So, okay, let's not use any silks over the top. Let's just go really hard. Let's try and orientate the sets so that we're backlit, so we have some control, and put in a

bit of smoke and really embrace the contrast. Just go for broke, because we knew the cameras could handle it when we shot on Ultra Vistas, so we knew the lenses were able to deal with that level of contrast, and they look good. And, you know, just keep it simple. Yeah. Let the landscape do it for you. Well, you actually, so you answered one question I was going to have, but I wanted to highlight how important a dimmer board operator can be, even for quote unquote, simple stuff like that.

I think that's one thing that will bring you from student filmmaker to good filmmaker is having a dimmer board operator. And you're right. And also, you know, I found the advancement of LED in the last few years, the control that you have now from the board onto the, the set is incredible because you can program so much back when it was really with totally and when you had incandescence before it wasn't as accurate and the amount of dimmer systems you'd need is astronomical and was quite prohibitively expensive now you have you have all kind of LED

solutions available to you that you'd never have before and that's all fully controllable like I did a job a few years ago called Shadow and Bone and we shot it in Budapest Christian Palsh was the gaffer and he had a brilliant board op I cannot call his name so forgive me

but one scene it took place in a snowy landscape at night in a forest which we had built in an interior and the scene lasted five or six minutes and I think there was 20 cues all in from the top to the tail and the director was interested in playing the whole scene

out of its masters and in smaller shots but we needed it all programmed and Christian had a small remote triggering device in his hand where he had programmed every single queue and any time and he knew the scene so like just tripped it

tripped it tripped it and we every time the moment happened in the queue that would have never have been possible I think like for me or even for like a few years earlier if we tried to do that

it would have been we would have had to break it up but because we had full control of LED and we had enough fittings in there and we had spent some time developing the queues we were able to do it I don't think we'd have been able to do that before

I saw be able to well the The one that I've heard a bunch that I've used is like Lumen Radio, just the iPad app. You know, you can control everything from it. And it's just, I'm sure it's made everyone's lives far better. Or maybe not easy to, definitely better. Yes, infinitely better. And I think also it allows directors and DOPs, particularly to kind of go, we can actually do it.

And realize and not kind of not shy away from. being quite ambitious in certain cues and actually building them and actually playing an entire scene. Better for the actors, better for the rehearsal, better for the Mison Saint, better for the crew because everyone knows top to tail all the processes,

all the performances can be lined up to cues and therefore they can all happen at the rate the actors want and we can modulate that depending on how they change it. Role doesn't it all being like the actors have to hit a certain mark at a certain point at a certain moment

it's actually driven by the performance it's the other way around because it's flexible. Yeah. And I think that's really interesting. That has changed a lot I think in the last few years. Anyway, for me,

now maybe other DOPs would say that's been around for years but for me I think it's a huge difference. Do you, was there a lot of difference? between the ways you guys shot season one of Foundation and Season 2, or was it kind of a continuation creative? Well, I think

creatively, we well, it's really hard to say, but I mean, I personally, I would say if when you start a job, you're always looking for ways to make it better. How can I make? Because I know

I've seen the other episodes. I've seen how they've been lit. Is there any way of making this is there is there are we missing a trick is there is there another way of telling this more clearly the story or this spaceship or this interior is there something i can do within the scene to make the scene just kind of work for what is coming out of their mouths like there's a scene um which i'll try not to spoil in episode eight i think it is now episode seven where

Hobber Mallow jumps into an execution and there's an explosion and all of the royals including the Cleons run into the throne room and a lockdown

happens. Now normally the throne room is like from one side or the other direct light or whatever but we wanted to show the throne room in a very different way. What would happen if a bomb goes off and everyone ushers you into a safe room what how different does that look from how it would look ordinarily so we're thinking well what well how can you make a throne room look like it's shuttered so then we thought hang on a second why don't we just light it all from from

from three foot above from the floor down three foot down so all the light is coming straight from below the line, below their chests, below chest height. And so you would imagine, hopefully, the idea is all of the shutters or protections outside the windows have come down to a certain level. So all the light is crosslit. It's a far more severe light. It's less flattering. It just gives you a different feeling inside the throne room rather than the large streaming daylight that would come in naturally. it's far more

it's darker obviously but it's far harsh and it's coming from both sides and it looked a bit more severe and that worked and it's not the hunt for the red October thing where everything just goes red you know everything is work goes red

and you want to try something else because because then once you go down the red route you're kind of painted into a corner and and after I don't know

two minutes of watching red your mind forgets about it and you're effectively in a black and white environment then and I think that for me I think that's just I don't know you're throwing away some

really interesting tools right there because you're just using one colour so maybe it's the shape of the light the direction of the light rather than turning it straight to red like sometimes when there was a red alert you'll see that It isn't actually quite red.

It's actually a more amber color because like certain issues with some of the sensors we're dealing with if it's too saturated with red and you want to change your mind in a grade or you want to nuance it a bit, you can't. Illariously, old red cameras were really bad with red. They were. They were. I remember the first time I ever shot on the red camera was the red one.

And we were shooting it. It was 2011 or something like that. And it was a nightclub scene, a rave. We got in a laser. We pointed at the crowd. They were all dancing whistles, hats all off their heads, delighted. It all worked great. And we pointed the camera straight at the laser and it swept through the camera.

And we did a shot. Yeah. And the camera system went, oh, and there's a bit of dirt in the lens there. I can't seem to get it off. And I was going, so we cleaned it, nothing was coming off. So we took the lens off. and of course, you know, we looked right into the sensor and there was a clean hole burnt right through it

and this plastic snot-like substance leaking down the surface of the sensor. So we phoned up red in LA and we said we have this problem that looks like there's a hole in the sensor. And without batting an eyelid, two seconds later the technician who spoke to said, you pointed out of a laser, didn't you?

And we went, oh, yes, we did. Yeah, I know. We've had that problem. We'll send you a new sensor tomorrow and it'll be fitted the day after you'd be fine. That was it. So, Bab, they were very good. So I never point. I never pointed to a red camera as a laser again. My lesson, it worked out fine, but it's great.

When you fuck up, you might as well fuck up really royally and make a huge stakes. You might as well just go bananas and own it and enjoy it. yeah the uh i know we're getting a little late for you um so do you well so if if it is okay i have two subjects to go uh the first one being uh i really appreciate it thank you um i was working on a uh i got to be real careful here i was working on a pitch for a movie and i was editing the video pitch and what's funny is this is all kind of come full circle for me because all of the stuff they were having

the edit together. I had never heard a foundation before this. I didn't have Apple TV, but it was foundation, dark city, elements of I think Blade, but definitely Batman. It was just all the Goyer stuff. The person I was working for is like

incredibly famous. Like everyone knows this person. So I was just like, do you know? Why don't you just ask Goyer to direct this? Like, what are you? Yeah, yeah, it'll be much simpler. Gore would be very flattered and delighted that you actually subconsciously chosen all his kind of main pieces of his work, both writing and directing and all the rest. And he loves, Goyer is very nice man and very collaborative and very dry wit, very nice fellow.

And when he doesn't like something, you just say, nah, don't like it, change it, don't like it. there's something around here and I go, cool. All right. What? Give me a, give me, give me something you'd like. I like this. I like this. This is, this is the look. And then we'd feel around a little bit. Yeah, that's it. Cool. It looks cool. Well done. I like it. It tells a story. Get on with it. Do it. And then it allows you total freedom to do what you, to do what you do best. and therefore because it's like what we spoke earlier about the freedom you're not afraid to pitch stuff at him

and to say listen David I think this is going to be much better if we do this like this and he go all right yeah okay cool and then he'd say well actually I don't like it that way because in the story here it's really particularly important that this be set at this time of day

or in this location and I wanted to feel a bit like the outfit cool okay and he can articulate that in story terms and then we can liaise like that. So that's really good. Rather than just saying, here, this is just going to look good. There's always a reason for it. And if he bumps up against it, he'll tell you.

And not in a way torture feelings or anything, but to say, well, actually, this is the reason behind we wrote it this way. And he's quite, here's a lot of integrity when it comes down to the script and he'll defend it to the hilt because he and his writer has spent so much time formulating it and as you know spent enough lot of time developing the scripts and getting to the point where they're at and for us to come in and trod all over them you know he will defend them in a way and in a way to make to kind of ensure that what we're doing photographically isn't going to undermine them the story so I think that's really cool and I think all the other

DOPs would agree with that. And that approach is just refreshing. Actually, it doesn't happen very often, to be honest. Well, that kind of is what I was going to get at because like he's had a hand in making so many of the, I know people are divisive about Dark City, but I watch the director's cut and it looks great. But like, you know, your Batman's, your blades, your everything, some of the Marvel stuff early on. Like, yeah, he's had a hand in creating some of the more, um, enjoyed, let's say, pop culture kind of touchstones. And I was wondering if you had kind of an insight into, and the foundation as well, it's fantastic. I was wondering if you, maybe if there was something that you working with him, kind of,

you could point out and say that's probably one of those things that gives him such a, that it seems to work most of the time. Like what is he doing that makes that work a lot of the time? Well, I think, like David. He was a showrunner in season one, and he directed one episode, which I partially photographed. So I only had a relationship with him in terms of DOP showrunner. So he would show up for scenes that I was shooting for Roxanne, with whom I worked on season one. And he would bring, say, he would, like, perfectly honestly, he'd bring,

scenes and shots from other episodes that were shot by other people and directed by other people. He brought them to us as a showrunner and he'd say, this really works and this is why I really like it and what I like about it. And this is why...

And then he'd say, this is... This scene here, this is why I think this doesn't work. I don't like this for this, this is the reason. He's very clear about... By showing an element, and actually been able to show it to you and articulate it clearly by showing you the scene, either in his iPad or later on a monitor.

So you get a very good insight into him as a showrunner, and we get instruction as to his aesthetic for the show by those conversations. So then in season two, when I worked with him as a director, DOP, he'd say, listen, Owen, I'm a really good screenwriter, and I'm really proud of my screenwriting but I'm not as confident as a director so I'm going to lean on you

to help me out telling the story visually and I say listen pal you've written the story it's really clear what you need to say you've got really good performers who know their characters just rehearse that scene I'll always be there on the side

quietly in the corner set during rehearsals and he would rehearse the lines and they would have discussions and they'd go deep dive into the meaning of all those lines and the movements and the screen direction

and he's really really on those moments because he experienced he was in the writer's room for all of that now he has to interpret it as a director and how do you you how do you lay out the scene how do you how do you block it and all of those things he would

he would openly say well I'm unsure about how this is going to work and I want you to help me to be part of that and I say and I would normally say to him just let it flow let just let them rehearse see how the scene gets up in its feet and and I'll come in only if there's something going photographically or it's going to really trip us up in when we have to go in shoot it. Otherwise, I'm going to keep my hands off this because I don't want to influence what is actually happening on the set because sometimes, and more often that, it was really good because the lines and the scene were coming out really well. Only once or twice I've ever had to go in and go, if that character goes over there and stays put in that corner, we're going

to be in trouble because there's no hole in the side of that. set. There's no windows, there's no source of light. There's going to be some reason that's going to be hard for us to capture that. And so he goes, right, okay. So then he'd talk to the actor and we'd try and find a way of getting it into a position that we know we can do what he wants to do with the performers and I can get the cameras in because we're two, three cameras show, you know.

And so, and speed is of the essence and we have to be able to light it in a way that is both aesthetically good for the story. story looks good and is quick. Can't hang around. There's no time for that. We have really enormous resources, but time is always our enemy. And that's the only time I would ever really, I would quietly have a conversation with him about that. And he'd look and go, is that going to work for you?

I said totally. And then we'd go away and say, we'd try and figure out, is there something else we can put into the scene to just lift it visually do something else is there a move you're interested in is it a pan or is it is there

an edit is there is there a lighting move or a cue is there something that we can just go let's just change it up here a bit there's something

we can do a bit groovy halfway through the scene is there something or is it just straight and he'd always be open to that and that's really interesting because then then we have a really

really big challenge. Then we have to go, I'd talk to Barry, the gaffer. I say, right, Barry, you know what? We've got to do something really interesting here, and we have to do a really interesting trick. Like, I'll tell you one story, and I won't hold it too long, but they were filming. I'm on your time, man. You go as long as you'd like. I'm loving this. We were filming in Lanzerotti, in a cactus garden, where one of our characters, I think is an episode two, Brother Constant, arrives in this small town, sets up, how would you say, sets up a sign to advertise the foundation's religion. She gets unwanted attention from the locals who want to run her out of town. She's cornered, runs, is chased through town, cornered at a certain point,

and it's about to be attacked, and then in the script it says it turns from day to night. and a spaceship appears overhead, a beam of light shines down upon the crowd, and, um, um, I can't step. I have this written down on this note right here. I wanted to ask about that, see? Lines down, eventually lands down and then preachers to the crowd,

has a far work exhibition, and then converts the crowd, and then they're taken back upon the ship, and they fly away. Now, in, now, I was going, how the hell are we going to do this and so Goyer had said it would really be great if we could

do the change from day to night in camera I was going yeah but oh my God so it's exterior night time or exterior daytime in a very large open air environment how

on earth are we going to do that so we were knocking heads we'd visit the set numerous times was it three, two days and one day split in the night to shoot the whole thing was a big scene, a lot of resources, a lot of crowd

and then we thought, why don't we shoot it so that we back the scene into sunset and then once the actual daylight phase, the real daylight, we can take over with our own ambient sunlight,

evening light, and then we can switch that over literally in camera to nightlight so that's what we did but we had to make sure that when we did the turnaround from day to night we only had a 40 minute window to do it right that's the only moment we could do it because there'd be

enough ambient in the sky and enough power from the lamps we had 420k and two soft suns and three grains with backlights and all the other ground lighting basically to dim one system out and the other to come up in

camera. Like we were just, it was the most frightening moment, I must say. Because I kept saying to David, I said, David, we've got to hit this point. Otherwise, we've blown it. The producer used to show up, Laurie Borg, and go,

do you really need this many lights, oh, and you're like, yes, shut up, yes. Yes, we do. So we did. And the transition worked. And then we carried on, right? We carried on shooting, it all was working fine, and then one of the camels that was in the background decided that he didn't want to be there anymore and took off through the crowd which parted in time

and ran away with its owner chasing after it. And it stepped on the main water main feeding the cactus garden. A shot of water when flying up into the air as the water main burst, everyone scattered. The water landed on the ground. flooded all the cable of distribution and all the lights went out. He's. And I looked at David Goyer and David Goyer looked at me. And he went, oh my God. And I said, it's okay.

It's okay, right? Don't worry. What's the worst that can happen? This is the worst thing. I know, but don't worry. It'll be fine. We get the camel back. I'm sure he'll behave and we'll dry the cables.

It'll be fine. There's nothing we can do. sometimes shit it happens listen enjoy the moment and we went quick break

yeah a quick break have a cup of tea it would be fine and then of course we plugged the water main got the camel back dried off the extras lift the cables out of the water

dried off the distribution turned lights back on and we carried on maybe an hour later and we've completed yeah there's a there's a I think he's a gaffer

in L.A. I think he's in L.A. But he invented something we called the swamp box, which was literally for that kind, it's just this plastic thingy that you're supposed to put all the distros on for that exact reason. I know. Well, we've thought in, you know, in

Lanzarotti and one of the driest volcanic islands that there is, and with a good summer evening light, we would never really be inundated by water. We'd never suffer. Here you go. Sometimes these things happen. And

you kind of, you kind of. And that's the one thing we've said about earlier. You kind of have to be a little more relaxed about it and kind of just look at the bright side because sometimes the worst disasters are going to happen right and there's nothing really you can do about it except kind of smile and just go

listen it's okay it's only a movie there's worse things in the world that can happen and we will fix it because there's a lot of people around here and we will find a way of fixing it and you do invariably you do when those disasters happen

there's a way of fixing it Yeah, well, and there's also, like, I've, a few, a handful of DPs have mentioned how the era of the screaming either D.P. or director, whoever, is starting to apparently kind of go by the wayside, you know, just someone blowing up on set for whatever reason. But also, for people listening, like, being that person immediately removes any respect or trust they had in you when you blow up over something. Like, if someone shoots your dog, yeah, you're going to scream at them. But, like, if someone shoots your dog, yeah, you're going to scream at them. But, like, if, if, if you know, water main blows and you start screaming it, whoever, to fix it. It's not, no one thinks that that person deserves this. Like, this was not their friends. No, I know. I think what that is sometimes is manifestation of kind of, it's just a built-in insecurity sometimes and a frustration and stuff like that.

And people can lose their heads. And that's a problem, you know, because one, it's just not tolerable. But two, it isn't going to make things any better on the set. and also people like all your sparks all the people there working for you all the camera crew they're looking at you

and the director and you're looking at the director for guidance and sometimes all you need is just a stopgap a valve kind of go

look it's okay it's all right I mean you could never predict something that's going to go wrong like that or many other things

that happen on a daily basis but if you're kind of if you've feel confident enough in your own ability so if it does go wrong there's another solution or trust in your team

to go well we've got a really good team here they're going to suggest something or the director says to you you know what just another way of doing this or you say to them so I think it's not just a matter of calm heads it's just by having the trust in yourself

and understanding that these things are invariably going to happen Like, because you're in the center of human activity, mistakes are going to happen, there's things you can't ever factor for and plan against. You just have to use your ability to fix them in the moment. And then, and not worry that you can't. Because if you do that, then you're done for.

You'll never, you'll never pull yourself out of it. And then people will, and they will look to sometimes, the superior or you will look to the crew to give

you that or you to give them guidance whatever whichever way the dynamic

flows and you will fix it but if you are not that person and your

crew and they don't trust you or they feel that you're being just unhelpful

by your attitude then you're never going to engender trust in them and certainly neither should they and the work

will reflect that you know so that's that's kind of the bottom line isn't it really that's you can apply that to any aspect of your life not just the process of filmmaking

but obviously time to time oh you do you do get like pissed off and you do get oh man this is not working and sometimes I do find myself kicking myself up the arse going this this needs a bit more energy

there's something there's something wrong and I didn't find it there that day there's something no one else might notice it but you feel pretty shitty about yourself there's a moment here

you know and that's where the energy that's where really brilliant and like some of the best DPs in the world like I don't know people who have little resources or have enormous resources

but the imagery they still put out is just like how the hell did they do it And we have this list of guys Like I was thinking of the night Who were to And maybe I've asked this other people Who were the people that really influenced me

And I was trying to scratch my head And it comes down to Like there's a bunch of European cinematographers I don't know if you know them like A guy called Peter Sabinsky Or Swavimir Itzak Or Sven Nickfist or Philippe Ruslo And I know the last two

Yeah Swavimier Itzak he would have shot some of Kislauski's pictures like a short film about killing and he shot King Arthur as well and Polish DOP, really

fantastic DOP they all came from low budget, zero budget like just making movies with their directors in Eastern Europe and Central Europe with no resources but still making them look

amazing and then there's the other which is the more Western style of cinema who have had loads of a lot of resources and really good training and they've had the Hollywood structures to train them

like oh God Doug Slocom film of Sigmund Jordan Kronowitz Caleb Gordon Willis Gordie Willis Barry Sunfield all of those

like all those people I've seen movies from all of them as a kid, as a kid, and then I would have seen also all the Eastern European movies as well because I was in the west of Ireland with a really small cinema, but we got movies from America and movies from the East a lot, and they were all mixed up. It wasn't just a monocultural visual thing. It was, it was really mixed bag. And I think that's where I got my sensibilities he's from anyway. Well, my interest.

Yeah, a bunch of those names. I'm 100% with you. I actually got to interview Jeff Kronowitz. Oh, yeah. Months ago. So that episode's out if you care. But I'm going to flip it around on you. You actually had influence on my cinematography career.

Oh. And that is because you shot my favorite episodes of Doctor Who. Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. That was a one ago. The doctor's wife, by far, is probably one of my favorite episodes. The nightcares was great.

Yeah, well, now, yeah. Well, he's not my friend. An acquaintance of mine married her. It's just a buddy. I turned around one day. I was like, you're married to who? The loveliest human being you would meet. The most down-to-earth, really funny,

like bundle of energy you'd ever... Like, most of the time, stay still, Karen, will you? You hit the mark and stay still. Oh, she was so full. full of energy, very tall, very elegant. And Matt Smith, of course, he was brilliant. What?

Like, some days he would come in having, because it was quite densely written. There's a lot of dialogue and he would learn all his lines for the week ahead on the Sunday night. And, like,

incredible. He would have learned, I'd say, 60 to 80 pages of dialogue over one afternoon. And by the end of I did five or six episodes, I think, near the beginning of his tenure. Boy, was he tired. But bloody hell, he could turn that out. I mean, the performance, the energy was just incredible. It was brilliant. He was both amazing. Well, and I wanted to know, because that was with Matt Smith coming in, that was when it seemed like the BBC started to care about the production value of the show, because all of David Tennant stuff was fun, but it was still very early BBC, no budget. kind of look. No, I know.

There was a lot of spit and cellar tape. But I think they realized that it needed a little more, it needed to change a little bit. And so they brought in a director with whom I had worked with on a job called Little Dorrit. And Adam Smith was his name. Really good, really interesting director. And then he said, oh, no, I'm going to do these.

first few episodes of Doctor Who you're in Dublin, it's whales zoning you over the road, get on a boat I said, Jesus, why not? And so we Stephen Moffat was a writer, he was this kind of showrun at the time and he encouraged us

do what you want, make it look good and there isn't much more money but if you really need something, tell us so when we start we chose a different camera system and was shot digitally

but it was shot them right it was the original D-21 oh okay yeah that was the first few episodes it was the mechanical shutter version of it we got hold of that and we also wanted to shoot they redesigned a TARDIS and so there was a lot of work put into the light of that because that was the core of the show.

And so I know there was a lot of exterior and stuff, but that was, if we can get the TARDIS right, and again, it came down to this idea of simplicity because the set was designed to be a kind of a central hub where the main controls were, and then all of the outer shell of the set recessed in a kind of like an onion around that. So I thought the key to making that look good

was just make the sense. center, the center of it. Don't worry about the walls. Don't like them too much. Don't worry about all the other extraneous stuff. Don't try and show this wonderful set. Just show the middle because that's where the performance is going to be all the time. That's where your eye is going to go.

That's smart. And if you get that right, even though it was harsh sometimes, we had to control it with frames above, even though it was quite hot down lighting and all the rest. Just get in there when we get in for close. We just kind of soften it off as best if we could. Just make the core of that.

where I needs to go and don't worry about the rest of it. The rest of the life itself and that's what we did

was that and then all the rest of the exterior stuff we try to use as much negative fill as we could and as much shape so all the exterior stuff

we always had we hired some scissor lifts and manatews and rather than like blow all the cash on exterior jenies and lights we just

extracted a lot of light we just we just cut it off and negged it as best we could um in the interiors or locations and all the exterior stuff and then chose um to shoot as much at night as we could um and that was it that was it that's all we did yeah well and then and what was that episode uh god complex where they're in the hotel oh yeah jesus that hotel that was like in a tiny tiny hotel off the coast i can't I remember Ilan did know, or somewhere like that on the coast, quite a grim area or a hotel, should I say it, beautiful area, but the hotel was pretty run down. And again, small spaces, a lot of story to tell. But then we went back to studio and we were able to modulate light and create some really interesting interiors.

So just take the ancillary stuff away, concentrate in the performer and then build out from there. that was it yeah would uh would you now having done a show with as much um polish and uh you know loveliness as foundation have would you have done something different now with that knowledge on an older show like that way back when oh god i don't know um i think sometimes the choices are really clear in front of you um and you kind of just have to make them if like i i'd hate to back and try and if I did it again I'm sure I would I do it slightly differently but then it was successful so I don't I don't really want to tinker about it think tinker with it too much it's like you do a piece of work you do your best with the

collaborators and the performers and the director and then you just let it go right it goes off into the world and you say goodbye to it and that's it's done and it's over And then sometimes it just comes back, like you just brought up a few episodes of something I'd long forgotten. And you go, Jesus, someone's really enjoyed that. Someone's noticed that you hadn't, that I didn't do something wrong, that it actually endeared. It told the story and it endeared itself visually to the person watching it. And that's great. That means I didn't do, I didn't go completely in the wrong direction.

I followed my instincts enough to kind of go, well, that worked. Whereas if you if you kind of try and go, I think one tries to go back over and I have had loads of failures. Loads of disasters and you kind of go, oh God, I wish I'd done that differently. But you take that knowledge and apply to the next one. Going back and looking at it again, at least you take the knowledge of the mistake and use it going forward. and that's enough and not to get and not to let

kind of the doubt of what you've done wrong and wishing to change it because if you try and emulate it's like trying to emulate your favorite cameraman or your favorite director or your favorite storyteller

you just say it with a different voice your accent is yours your voice is yours you can't really imitate it and if you do you're going to make a balls of it you make well complete to that point the initially when I said that you had an influence on me is because that those

episodes came out right when I was about to leave college and I and I was I was a big Doctor Who fan I was having to let's say source it in a way that the BBC wouldn't like and the but I remember watching the old you know Dr. David Tennant of Doctor Who and then your first episode comes out and I was just blown away with the difference in quality and I was just like oh and for some reason that felt way more accessible. Like it felt like going mentally being there and watching that happen and watching like top gear and kind of getting a feel of how like the BBC worked and it'll create documentary. Just for some reason gave me this creative boost where I was like I feel like I can I can do that. Not that it looked, you know, simple enough for a student

to do, but it, for no reason it gave me a lift. But that is good. I mean, if that's the energy it can imbue on some like yourself or others. it gets you on a path that's great like I've seen loads of pictures in the past and I go wow that just looks so good that what have they done

to achieve that and normally when you find when you look into it and delve down and normally these are pictures that I would have seen growing up in the 80s and the 90s it comes down really

I think like the solutions they found were just so simple and they were so, well, resourceful and elegant, and they were, they had all of those, I suppose, adjectives that people say, oh, that's of course what they've done, but you never really know that. You'd think that they've spent millions of dollars and they've spent huge amount of rigging time and setups to do that, but sometimes the most memorable shots, the memorable story points, the memorable moments in cinema

are done from the most simplest things. And you go, oh my God. And it kind of pops that myth a little bit that they had everything. They didn't. They, some of those movies that influenced me the most were done with the lowest of budgets

and the shortest of time but just really ingenious really smart storytellers really smart approaches to it and that condensation of intelligence to tell in a shot to tell that moment it's like that's incredible

you have to be you have to think in a different level for that and sometimes it just comes down to thought sometimes it's an accident a lucky accident but if you have the idea and it's strong enough camera person

or the designer won't get in the way they'll just it'll resonate and so when I was working with Adam Smith on those episodes we were left to our own devices by Mr Moffat and told

to bring what we had and because well there was some expectation but not a huge amount like we were I don't know what age at the time but younger and very unproven payer

I must say me particularly Adam had done some work and he was recruited because I think he wasn't the traditional director that they would have normally expected to recruit

And he, in turn, wanted someone who wouldn't be the kind of the usual choice. And so I was lucky enough to get the call for that. And so that dynamic helped shape the look of that. And it helped shape Matt Smith's introduction to Doctor Who, which was very successful. So I'm proud to be part. I was certainly very proud to be part of that. I was very lucky. A lot of it was luck, I'm afraid.

that always seems to be the case right what's the phrase it's like uh you know uh basically it's not a phrase if i have to summarize it but it's basically like you know you can only be so prepared and then luck strikes and that's when you know that's that opportunity works for you or whatever the such a terrible retail like whatever that thought is but now you've mentioned that here's a little story that i love telling and and some people may know about it but i was a fan of vermere And I went to that show in Amsterdam in the summer, which was incredible. But there is one of his paintings in the National Gallery in Dublin. And it was originally part of the Bight Museum or the Bight Collection,

which was a very wealthy family that had that painting hung in his house in South County, Dublin. And it was stolen by a notorious gangstand. called a general, many years ago. And it was ripped from its frame and rolled up in a tight roll, placed in a tube, and was hidden in the Dublin Mountains for a number of years, and it was not recovered until it was recovered by the Antwerp police in a in a drugs bust for which it was been used as collateral for a drug deal. Anyway, the National Gallery of Ireland, to whom the painting had been bequeathed,

after Sir Alfred Byth's death went over to Antwerp to retrieve it and they unrolled it and laid it over a light box and discovered there was a tiny hole in it and it went oh God, oh no, it's damaged besides the frame damage edging but the curator

went no no no this is something more interesting and it turned out that the hole in the painting was the vanishing point of the perspective of the painting painting, right? And they never knew how Vermeer did it, but what he had done is he had obviously chalked some wool and had threaded it through the vanishing point

and had drummed the effect of the lines of perspective on the painting and filled the hole with either paint or varnish for it to be obscured. And he told all of the other, I think he got word out to all the other museums around the world and obviously they met in New York and the Rijks Museum and where all

the other paintings were and they found several similar holes. And the beautiful irony of all of this is that even the general who used the painting, the criminal, and had actually an endearing love of art

himself, had unwittingly discovered one of the techniques Vermeer had used 400 years earlier for the creation of his amazing person. perspective in his paintings. So even by the most unlikely of ironic accidents, you can find and discover amazing things. And I just love that idea.

I think it's just so bizarre and wonderful. And I think it's really something that is indicative of our process of filmmaking. 100%. I don't know why, but you know what I'm saying? Yeah, it's, I love that. Have you seen the, do you know Penn and Teller, the American magicians.

Yes, of course. Penjillette actually made a documentary called Tim's Vermeer. There's this, Tim's Vermeer, and there's this American dude who believes that Vermeer made it. Have you heard of this thing? I've heard this document. I haven't seen it. Oh, you might have to pick it up on Blu-ray.

I can ship it to you if you want. I got the Blu-ray. But it's a... Go on. You can find it. But it's a great documentary about how this guy feels that Vermeer was using a essentially a camera obscura and little prism and he just

would paint a real a real scene you know and then so this guy did he's not an artist he went and replicated what he thinks yeah Vermeer used and does it himself and they're like can you paint he's like I can't

draw for shit but I can do that I can do that so maybe there was certain I mean you can delve deeply down intro but there is little circles of confusion and there is pointillism and there is really unusual painting techniques

but they keep changing all the paintings so you can't ever argue it was one right well and just now I always thought

oh that must have been how I did it because it's such a good replication but just hearing about the little pinhole thing that goes

nope probably not then or it was something or maybe it was who knows and I don't respect maybe that's right and in some ways

there should be a little bit of mystery because because that's what's so endearing and during about the paintings and obviously

for lots and the subjects there are but you still discover other ways of doing things it's just amazing and even if you discovered four years later great

yeah well that feels like a very good place to stop I would love to have you back and keep chatting because I feel like we could go on for more hours that's late for you so okay no problem I'll put the dogs out and see if they're all to sleep

and I'll get to bed myself fair enough man well please stay in touch like I said love you happy Kenny. I'd love to have you back next time you. Not at it all, any time. And it was a pleasure talking to you. Frame and Reference is an Al-Wod production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. As this is an independently funded podcast, we rely on support from listeners like you. So if you'd like to help, you can go to buymea coffee.com slash frame and ref pod. We really appreciate your support. And as always, thanks for listening.

Thank you.