Frame & Reference Podcast - 118: "Foundation" & "Peaky Blinders" DP Cathal Watters, ASC, ISC

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

Another amazing one here! This week we're talking to the wonderful Cathal Watters, ASC ISC about his work on Peaky Blinders, Foundation, and more! ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Follow F&R on all your favorite social platforms!⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 118 with Cathal Waters, ASC-I-S-S-E, DP of Foundation and Peaky Blinders. Enjoy. I don't know if you've had the same kind of break we've had here, but have you been able to watch anything cool recently? You know what? I'm in prep on a feature, kind of soft prep. And what I've been watching is documentary, basically,

because I just wanted, I didn't want anything to kind of, you know, I don't know, you know, that I'd get stuck on one particular thing. I started watching documentary, so I'm big into cycling, so I saw, I caught this documentary on Mark Cavendish on Netflix, and I thought it was just incredible and beautifully put together and an incredible story, and then I watched the Tour de France series of documentaries from, I think, 2020, and they were just incredible, like so much drama. It was great, like, so like I've been kind of enjoying them, really, to be honest. Yeah, I find that, like, over the past few years, I had to get much better at watching, like, movies because my instinct is to always, like, even in books, like, search out information, not even documentary, but just, like, Masterclass.

Like, I'll just sit, eating lunch, like, just watching Masterclass about something I'm never going to do, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I understand. Like, there was another series of documentaries, and this is kind of, this is kind of, this stuff. stuff I need to kind of chill out with, and it's like, it's called seven days. So it's seven days out from a big opening of something or other. So one was like Carl Largerfield, like a fashion thing in Paris Week, and it was like this whole other world. And it's just nice just to chill out. Because if I'm looking at stuff, you know yourself, it is a little bit, like obviously,

you know, I, no more than all of us, like we beg, borrow and steal images and all of that. But sometimes it's nice not to be on the lookout, but it's nice to be just chill and just enjoy it for what it is. So that's kind of what I've been on at the moment. As I said, I'm kind of in the middle. I'm kind of trying to break down a script for myself and trying to just comprehend the script as such. So I'm just chilling out with documentaries at the moment.

Yeah. Because I imagine especially when you're trying to build a look for something that's, you know, maybe not unique, but appropriate for the story. you might get a little tied into something you think just looks. Yeah, exactly. Sometimes you get tripped up on and then suddenly you can't see, you know, you can't see beyond that and suddenly, oh no, that's the way it has to be.

And then sometimes you need someone to whack you over the head and go, actually, what about this way? So I'm kind of at the stage now where I just want to be open to it and we're going on recies. Actually, I'm going on recies tomorrow. So that will kind of, that's when I get really interested in the look of things when I see actual places and suddenly it's like you know something on the script actually becomes becomes alive in the place you're looking at there and then you know but i still try and not say

too much and just kind of let it all sit in but i'm still trying to find a process that works but do you still i saw that you uh you know kind of got started in in film photography at least in like image brain do you still shoot uh a lot of phoomies i i i do a bit and I'd say an awful lot of people are, you know, guilty of this. Like, I've a beautiful XLR and, you know, and lovely lenses, and I never take them out. I use my iPhone. Yeah. It's so media, it's so there and beautiful images. And, you know, even cinematic mode and you're changing focus on God, this is like, it's incredible, you know? And, you know, so I do like images and I have to get back to them and that's how I feel

you know and but I feel when I go out with a camera I I oh like I give myself a hard time you know I'm afraid to push that button I'm afraid to commit you know and that

fear is not good I should be just going oh take a million and pick one I just want that to be just the perfect image you know but anyway that's we're probably all guilty of that but yeah like I take a million photographs on my iPhone because it's so casual and so whip it out by and you know my family hate me first yeah yeah my girlfriend is not uh it sucks because she's a

gorgeous woman but she will not let me take photos of her it's it's when I have to do camera tests and stuff you know for articles I'm writing whatever like hey can you just sit she's like absolutely not and I'm like the cat can I just shoot a lot of foot into the cat have to jump in with a selfie you know it's a surprise it's all about the art of surprise well I actually did a, I wrote an article about this on Pro Video, but I, I don't know if I did it for a year, but I think I did it for two months where there's this company called Moment, and they've kind of moved away from this, although I guess they just put out these lenses again, like new ones, but they make cell phone lenses that you attach, like they have like a special case.

And so like you were saying, like bringing a camera with you kind of brings this, um, it kind of, at least this is the way I feel it. Like it kind of encumbers me, you know, I have a Nikon F2 which is great and then my other camera is an RZ67 you know it's a giant medium format so I'm not taking that with me but even just having it kind of annoys you

and then if you're shooting film it's you know way harder to choose what photo you want to take but like you're saying with the cell phone it's nice but I don't necessarily like how wide everything is and even using the telephoto lens on any cell phone doesn't really so

yeah and they had this 56 millimeter telephoto that I would put on my cell phone and it really just gave this very interesting because it's not great glass so it was kind of fudgy and interesting but the depth would change and it was pretty cool but now I have a Fujifilm X100 which is very pocketable and that thing is you just chuck it in your bag and then you know you'll take a cell phone photo and go I'm going to upgrade this you know I mean the reviews for that is they're off the charts aren't they it's incredible Yeah. Did you, I asked a bunch of people this, but I think for you, it's more immediate, interesting answers. Did you, did you watch Oppenheimer? I haven't yet. No. I thought, oh, I have to watch it because I want to watch it in 70 well, and I want to watch it in the, you know, proper theater. I don't want to. So I'm just, I'm just waiting for the time that I can, I can do that, you know. It's a little bit limited in Dublin. There's one or two places, but that's it. So I'm just waiting to see it properly. Yeah.

I was telling Owen, I lucked out because living in Los Angeles, you know, a lot of opportunities to see things. And I guess the Universal Studios IMAX was the one that Chris Nolan like QC'd the film in. So I was like, if I go there, I know that's how it's supposed to be, you know? Yeah. I would have. Yeah. So that's it.

Like I'm kicking myself. I haven't seen it yet. And I'm dying to see it. I love Christopher old movies, you know, but, uh, no, I haven't seen it yet. I meant, I, I would have thought that you would have sprinted there just, uh, because Killian's in it, you know, you, yeah, I know, I know, like, yeah, I don't want to bump into now and Dublin as I haven't seen. He'd kill me.

It's been, it's been crazy to see that guy's, you know, career take off like it has. Like, he's always been an amazing actor, but I feel like now he's finally getting attention, which he probably fucking hates being Irish, but, you know, all the, all the, all the of attention he's getting. no and he is incredible and like obviously i worked with him picky blinders and like he was so incredibly um prepared every single day and so nice and knew the character so well and was so giving to me giving to david the director like he is an incredible guy and then his work ethic is just unreal you know um to get himself and tom hard

in a room or themselves you know it was just just incredible like you know those to it uh to christopher nolan that seems to be a solid pipeline these days i know yeah you know and that's kind of you know i was delighted for killian but he got he got that role it's so well deserved and you know i i am down to see us that's us try but i want to see it the way it should be seen you know did you um this is kind of a weird question but uh did you did he did killian teach you anything on peach peaky blighters not uh directly but just like did you kind of

pick up anything that you could apply to your own work that you found um no no good i guess look i don't know um maybe one time one time it was funny uh you know i was putting a shaft of light there and i kind of said kinner said look you know Would you, could you, is there any chance you could kind of, like, come in a little bit into that light? And, like, I, this is me being, you know, naive, like, I was kind of asking him to come into the light. And then he kind of turned and said to me, said, well, I try and if you really want me to, but my character wouldn't.

And I kind of kicked myself in the foot going, what is, like, he's dead right. I was there going, don't, don't change anything. Don't do anything. there was a stupid question from me. Now, I can't remember where I moved the light back or I just kind of went, you know, what? He's cool in the shadows. I think I just upped the ambient a little bit,

and there was a bit of a lesson for me, you know? Yeah. And then there was another time that it's a scene where he's kind of, he's hit the bottle and he's going kind of crazy and he's just a little bit unhinged and he's supposed to be, you know, hearing sounds of war from, you know, the world war, and he's, as I said, he's going unhinged and, you know, it's a bit breaking down, his character breaking down.

And we both kind of, we're in this room, and I had a big light, I had a big light outside, and he was going, this is night time. And I was going, yeah, but this scene is in your head. and he went okay fair enough and then we said well let's not rehearse anything let's just shoot it so we shot it now we did like three takes i think or two takes anyway and it was all hand-tells and it was all that and like i felt like he was he got it from what i was trying to do whereas you know it was it was just a symbiotic relationship that he felt comfortable enough to question my lighting and then he felt comfortable

to kind of go, okay, that makes sense, fine, I'll go with that and you know, I think it'll work. Yeah, yeah. Well, that probably, that kind of shooting because I was doing obviously a little research on you and I saw you came basically from like news gathering and stuff.

Yeah. And I was wondering how, because like I feel like a lot of people these days it's more common to have people, not even necessarily from news, but just like shooting a lot of stuff in a kind of documentary style. because it's maybe not easier, but more available.

You know, you can buy a camera now, whereas 10, 20 years ago, that was certainly not the, you know, when I was in college, that was very rare. But I was wondering if that kind of has informed your narrative work at all, because I saw, you know, you enjoy handheld a lot and stuff like that. Yeah, no, massively, massively. I mean, I think, you know, I mean, there's two aspects. Like, I came from shooting news, went into documentary work. spent, you know, 15, 20 years shooting documentaries and then eventually kind of, and it's the way I always wanted to end up is starting shooting music videos and dramas and TV dramas and feature cons and all of that. So I knew what way I wanted to go, but I knew, like, I didn't want to go down

the focus puller, you know, second AC, camera operator route. I wanted to go down. Well, to be honest, I didn't even know that route really existed. And back then, if options were were quite limited. So I just wanted a camera on my shoulder. I just wanted to shoot. I just wanted to see things through a lens, whatever it was, you know. And like I made so many mistakes and learned along the way. But certainly everything I do now is informed by that time. And I'm still learning the whole time. Obviously, and that's such a idiotic thing to say, because we're always learning. But I think just having a camera on my shoulder just informed everything, you know. And, you know, even looking at light, like I went

for years and years and years, I had one redhead, which is like an innate underwad, open face. I learned to bounce it, I learned to skip bounce it, I learned direct back light, everything. It was like, well, I remember having an argument with guys saying

Goli Adi, they went one light, you know? And I've got to go back to that now, really. Well, no, I'm not. You know, eh. No, I was going to say, there's a one quote, that I stole from one of the earliest episodes of this podcast,

this guy, Alejandro Mejia, he shot a movie called Son of Monarchs. It's like episode 10 or something. And his mentor was like, if you have two lights, you have two problems. If you have one light, you have one problem. And I was like, I've really started to take that to heart afterwards because I was like, well, you kind of need. And then nowadays, I'm like, nah, just one big soft source generally. I mean, not always, obviously, it depends on what you're shooting, but it tends to be like, that'll work quite often.

Yeah, exactly. I swear to put that light as the main thing, you know. No, well, absolutely. Yeah. Well, and I was going to say the thing that I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but the thing you probably had the advantage of is just using that one light and shooting yourself, you were also, were you also editing your own work? Because that'll tell you immediately if something worked. Yeah, a lot of the time. And that was, like, I started off. I wanted to do camera for news and they said, no, you're going to have to edit first. And that was the best thing that ever happened to me. So I was going around in a small van with like machine to machine edit. So I'd like, you know, a big Betamax machine and the little, you know, they'd, oh no, they'd lift up and you had your two wheels and you'd have to do audio and you'd have to do video. And if you made a mistake, you have to go all the way back and do it again.

So, like, that was the best thing I ever did because it actually taught me, you know, and I was editing other people. people's stuff. And then I started editing my own stuff and seeing the, seeing, seeing all of the problems immediately, you know, was a major in, you know, influence into feck and trying to get a right than X time. Yeah. Well, editing other people's stuff too is like, I feel like it really, um, it narrows in on what your, uh, visual aesthetic is because you immediately go like, oh, you know, if you don't like something, you're like, that's not good, but not that you'll steal other things, but you're hacking limbs off your decision tree when it

comes to like when it's time for you to do it. You know, you're like, I, this person made my job harder. I'm never going to do this to whoever has to edit my stuff. But you're, I mean, I guess everybody is trying to have some impact on it or some put their own stamp on things.

So in that or I guess the material and that's why, like, you always have to give it, you know, give away your images and let someone else kind of manipulate them and hopefully then come back and well especially yeah especially these days with we've said it a million times like

cinematography today has one foot squarely in post you know if cinema uh film capture used to kind of be locked in and now it's like you hand someone a log file and it's you never know what's going to come out the other side unless you have a really good connection at the colorist yeah yeah and especially um if you're doing stuff with a lot of the effects you've got to make sure your image is kind of in line with that because in post if it's not in line

that's going to have to be changed and all of that so having a good relationship with the VFX supervisor is key you know that's how I feel anyway well that was actually something I kind of wanted to ask about peekie blinders because it was such a that show had a really like a look to it I was wondering how much of that were you having to lean on your colors I saw you

were making like graded luts, you know, like 15%, 20% or whatever. But were those getting manipulated heavier? Was that just kind of for shooting? Not really. I mean, I went over and I did the grade with Simon Graselo and like, I flew over to London and we're going over and back doing the grade on it. But it was very similar to what we've done, you know, what we'd capture in camera. And that's what I always try and, you know, obviously I'm a big fan of the grade and I think you can really help things absolutely but i do try and shoot the way i wanted to look in the end you know so um like in terms of luts we had we had certain luts but it was mainly based on contrast so i used to call them pb1 to pb4 so peeked blinders one pique blinds four so i created these luts

um that's something i do massively but i would especially now with online or with with you know grading on you know live grade on the fly live grade sorry um but like i had these luts pb1 pb4 and depending on the scene i'd put in and it's mainly based on contrast you know because of the look at the show and yeah and then i might dial in a bit of saturation or that on on the fly and then afterwards in the grade but um yeah i mean it does have a certain look and you know it was the guys i did season four so obviously there were three seasons of beautiful work like Larry Rose, Simon Dennis, and I know we shot the first one.

Oh my God, I can't remember his name. Amazing guy. It'll come to me. But it'll come to me. Wasteing that one over. Yeah, exactly. We'll dub that in. What was his name? Jesus, don't let me do that. Can I look up his name? Yeah, Google. Yeah, yeah. Ring on two, six. I'd do it, but I usually throw my phone away so I don't get distracted.

by it you know yes I hang out there and I can't remember the way it was a bit ago too I asked to Owen about the episodes of uh uh Doctor Who that he shot and he was in I watched him go oh shit I haven't thought about that yeah that's the thing I mean here I'll talk about I'll pick up on a piggy blinders so basically like the look on piggy blinders is you know it's

it has a certain look and certainly like George Steele he did the first season and he pretty much set it up and then it's Simon Dennis and Laurie Rose and then I was following in their footsteps

and I interviewed Simon Debt I just really I've talked to him he's brilliant guy he's a great guy yeah he was awesome I don't know why I You said it once, and I went, uh-huh. Oh, shit, no, yeah, he's awesome.

Yeah, he's cool. He's doing loads of Ryan Reynolds stuff. He's, he's an incredible guy. He's over in L.A. now. Yeah, yeah. He recently became a member of the ASE, so, you know, he's flying over there. He's brilliant. Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

No, no, no, no, you're definitely, I can jump in any time. But, no, so the look at the show, it was well established. So when I came to it was, like, number one, it was like, oh, my God, how am I going to be to do this. And then number two is like, well, how can I do something slightly different? Because each series is different in the look of it. You know, Laurie season is different to Simon season is different to George. But it's all of one family. So I tried to do something different, but of the same ilk, let's say. So like I introduced a good bit of color. I introduced a lot of shadow because I felt it was like Luca Changretti, you know,

the Italians coming in so I was watching a lot of film noir and I was trying to get the shadows and the long shadows and the hats and all of that I'm trying to cooperate that in and also trying to get a bit of color in where there wasn't that much color before so look and I was trying to do a couple of things

but still keep it within the family of peekie blinders and I like I watched this series I was asked to do an interview for it and I'd never watched it. So I had to go watch the three seasons, you know, in a couple of days before I went for an interview. And I was blown away by it. I thought it was stunning and something very, very different and very cool the way they used modern music with the, you know, with the footage. Without going Baz Luhrman, you know? Yeah, exactly.

It was, yeah, but it was, there was something very, very cool. about it. I don't know, and still is like, well, and actually they just, I just saw up on Instagram there, it was like 10 years since the first episode heard. Yeah, like, incredible. Oh, my God, I feel old. But anyway.

Well, I was, I was looking at some, like, you know, ASC articles and stuff about it. And it seemed like the lighting approach, I mean, there's only a handful of stills, but like, it seemed relatively simple for how, like, visual that show

Were you guys, was that just those stills or were you guys like throwing a lot of light at it? Because it really seemed like what you were saying, just like kind of one light and then the practicals. Yeah, I mean, that was pretty much it. It was like, you know, well, certainly what I was trying to do was bring in shafts of light. I used a lot of smoke. Like it was tick with smoke. And they were smoking all of the time as well, which gave a bit of an excuse. Not that I need an excuse.

I like Hayes. I use it a lot. but like we had on every single window of every set I'd hard or soft light whatever it might be and I'd nearly always go hard light and create shafts

and then let them live within a lit space and even you know sometimes it was only one little practical lighting them or you know and even say like in Tommy's office I'd still try and get you know silhouette in his office as well as having these shafts in

so it's only the tiniest bit and sometimes if I need a little bit of fill it might have been like you know an A4 card that I take the edges off so it would be like nearly round and slide it in the table and I was like hoping that was okay

you know so yeah it is that sort of thing it's yeah making the shadow is interesting I think yeah was that before or after a dark song I think I shot a dark song before

Pink learners I think because I was watching the trailer for that and it looks I was wondering which informed the other because it's you know one location two actors and it seems like you know you just got that one light thing going on there too

which it looks great yeah dark song looking I'm very proud of that. I thought Liam, the director, did an incredible job. He wrote it and he knew his genre. And it's a film amongst horror aficionados that has just really, really grown

and become very, very popular, nearly cult status. You know, so I'm delighted for Liam. But, like, that was all shot in one house, practical house, no set. And, like, I basically chose different colours. for each room. So I got the designer to put, you know, to paint the kind of blinds, a certain color, certain hue, or, you know, we put up green blinds and another one. So it just was a bit edgy because it was supposed to be something that's, it's very real and then it takes a turn

and goes, but these people going into a house for a month or six weeks or something and having a ritual and it was like the house kind of turns into a character in itself. Anyway, I don't have spoiled much, but yeah, I'm very proud of that. But yeah, I don't know which came first that or paykeepers. Yeah. Yeah. Well, the reason I bring them up is just because, you know, with foundation, again, it's not that the lighting is easy, but it does feel simple in a good way, but like elegant, let's say.

And I was wondering kind of what your approach, your general approach, how it has changed from that show and that film to foundation and how kind of you yeah just how your general approach kind of changed double-asked question yeah no no I know what you're saying and fundamentally like I mean

if you look at foundation say season two so like I did four episodes and owned it born Tigo did two and like we all wanted it to be part of one thing

and it is and obviously season one I had done like most of six and then a bit of seven with Daddy Rowland from Australia but basically

like you've got massive big rooms in foundation like say the principality the throne room right but then you've got you know the next scene

you might be on a jumper ship where you know you're flying through space or you're coming out of a jump and you know this the ship is slowing down and then you know you're in day's bedroom and that's all lit by you know um fire and that sort of thing so it's like you've got very very different genres it's like you know you've got science fiction i mean i list they like in episode one where day has this bite i don't want to do too many spoilers now but i guess it's out well the yeah the whole season's out so you can get after it

Yeah, so basically, you know, there's an assassination attempt and Day is naked in bed and he gets up and he bites all these kind of blind assassins, which are basically space ninjas, I saw somebody calling them. But yeah, it's a pretty cool term. But like I lit that like a gladiatorial scene, you know, and trying to get flare into the lens and, you know, one light. I had about three lights but I wanted to look like one light because with these massive big pillars and I could hide one light behind

when I'd move here I'd still get that light and I used to I'd go out and I'd cut the curtains cut the shears so I'd have a tiny little bit so I could get flared through the hot spot

and then it was all lit with you know fire and so it was a gladatorial scene really and there was like blood on the floor and you know And then you hop next scene is like you're on a spaceship and, you know, it's crash landing into Ignis. You know, so it's very, very different.

Like it's a, like, it's a cinematographer's dream because it has so many different elements to it. It's not just one genre of, let's say, lighting, even though I don't think there is a genre of lighting. But it's not like, you know, you're lighting it as the one thing. Right. And then you're trying to draw it all under the umbrella of foundation. you know and i think that comes from the lenses and contrast and and you know shadow and darkness and all of that because it is quite a contrasty piece yeah i probably haven't answered you there but you know no no different um different places to go it's it's it's really cool well uh i will

say uh i'm oftentimes inarticulate with my question so any answer is pretty good uh i just keep talking yeah uh but the other thing that's great like i've always been a huge sci-fi fan and um the thing that's you know i talked to a lot of the star trek dps and stuff and in something that's got to be maybe you tell me uh maybe a challenge or maybe a gift is how often sets will especially in spaceships have all this built-in lighting where you don't have to like worry about like the window like how am i going to motivate this it's like it's a motivation you pick wherever you want the lights come. You know that point.

Like Rory Shane is the designer and he just built so much LED into each of the ships. Like it was just incredible. It was just brilliant. You know, like we were shot a lot on stage in Ireland. And I remember going into VOR. So you put on your glass and it's like, here's a set. We're going to build in Prague. What do you think?

Oh, that's cool. You're standing there in VOR. I'm looking around and I'm going, holy shit, this is incredible. And then you're looking at the plans. It's like, I'm going to have an LED here, going to have LEDs there, and all of that. So even at that stage,

and Rory's fucking brilliant because, like, if you said, well, could we get a little bit more here, a little bit more there? He'd be like, he'd kind of look at you and think, and he'd always try and make it work, you know. And again, he's thinking and making sure the aesthetic is going to work with what he has in mind. And it always, like, it always did or, you know, he was, he is a very giving, you know, production designer like.

But they put so much LED. To be honest, the trick was to turn half of them all and only have a few of them on. And it's not only like, you know, you'll have LED, but they have different types of LED. So you'll have LED that are just, it's just bicolour. So you've got like tungsten in daylight. But then you've got, you know, RGB LED. and then you've got motion in that LED

so you can put motion through it and you can do different effects so like the board up is an incredible you know a really good board up thank you Darren thank you Jonathan

in terms of you know having them there with you and using their expertise and speed to get different effects so there's an awful like so basically LEDs on ships are amazing

but you kind of have to go in what I usually do is turn everything on and go okay cool and then it's like right let's now we know what turn them all on now we turn them all on yeah but then you know we did a couple of walk and talks in the spaceship

and you're always trying to have like contrast in the face of a bit of drama and go through darkness and all of that and so Alex the director and he came up with these two old take Well, they are Wooners.

They're just seen and they come down the bridge and they go around. It's just before they crash land actually in Ignis. And there's two of these beautiful Wunners that he designed. And like I was there. It just looked so elegant. The Wunners and they're going around Jarrod Harris and bringing him out there. And I was there with the board up, God damn, down up, down. Because it was like, as we go down, I want this side down,

so the drama on his face. And then when the camera comes around to this point, they need to be up again. but only at 2% so they're not lighting them. So it was like, I don't know if you know the show, the Krypton Factor,

but it was like, you know, but it's just a game show that it's like so many things going on. And I've watched it in one little elegant shot. So LEDs are fantastic, but it's, I think like I learned a lot on how to use LEDs in a scene.

How's that? On foundation, obviously. What's that? How so? What did you? What just, just in the sense of um you know like what color to have them at what intensity where actors are going to be how i could augment them like a lot of the times i would say if i had

an effect going on say say for example there's there's one scene where the metallics burst in they blow open the ship and they storm the ship and it's it's all flashing and it's a little bit kind of stroby this fight and then they say unthink their minds and they all fall down sounds like a nursery round but you know to me I had the same thought that's like yeah I'll fall down

and think their minds but like the LEDs I would often have the ship going but then I'd get steer is like you know two foot or four foot and I'd program them in to certain LED

So myself and Martin Grinilla, the gaffer, we'd go around and we'd go, okay, that LED is, he'd have a map on his iPad and go, right, that's that. And we'd be onto the board up going, okay, this LED match that with this estera. So now I could bring whatever the effect was happening on that LED and it's portable. So I can bring it wherever I want, close to the actor, all of that. So you get the sense of it. So it looks like it's only been lit by the LEDs, but I'm, putting in lights. So that was a thing I did all of the time. I would augment the LEDs. So I'd probably turn half of that ship off and just have one steer. So I still have drama in the face. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So like the LEDs were incredible. And then, you know, you've got a ship. I remember like on that scene where they crash land in English. There's two beautiful shots, Alex, designed to get them into the seat as they were just going down. So they sit in the seat and then, you know, they crash land on this planet Ignus and they go through. So like you can't just have flashy, flashy lights or whatever because they go

through the atmosphere. So we don't, we don't wall of lights, you know, sky panels and vortexes and, you know, they were all. Oh, I do love the vortexes. Oh, yeah. So cool. They're so great. they're so great I think we we used a lot of those and Barry Barry Conroy was the head gaffer in Ireland

and then he was over and then I was with Martin but like I don't know I we had hundreds and hundreds I think on one set we had 300 sky panels but yeah it was kind of crazy but anyway the clash line in Ignus

but like I had like HMI I had mirrors made like five-sided mirrors and three-sided mirrors on little spinners to give the sense of going through trees and rock face and the light is catching them and I remember Alex he insisted on doing it himself out there no you look at the monitor he's like shaking the camera and he's down there the director like he's like he had to shake the camera himself but he's dead right look great but it's like they're crash landing I like that ship was on a gimbal but we chose not to use it like because we we want to like ever since then like more violent and the gimbal

could give us but anyway I guess the point I'm making is that you know it's great to have all the LEDs but then you've got all of the the other stuff outside the ship coming in and you know having effects and that sort of thing is is key as well yeah well and and to your earlier point like I think LED is obviously give it everyone tons of options but it does feel like until you're on those bigger shoots, a lot of times you're just putting it at one color temperature. It's just a key light, you know, until you actually have a dimmer board operator who can really like jazz, you know, use them to their full potential. They end up just being regular keys. Yeah, yeah. And that's like, I mean, you know, it's funny, you know, so going on from that,

they crash land and then they get out. So obviously the ship's a bit messed up. So it's like, We had to, and I'm going to say, we, like, we had to design, like, that light is flickering, like, you know, a bad fluorescent, you know, from the 80s that's trying to kick on. That one is like, you know, just like a beacon. So it's like every single light we had to give a character more, and that takes time and that's it. And that's what I must say is brilliant about foundation is that they gave you time to pre-light. There was time there to go in because, like, there's no time on the day as there is. There's never any time on any set. But they do give you lots of time to, you know, think about what you want to do.

And then, I wouldn't say there's loads of time to pre-light. You kind of have to grab it when you have it. but you do have time before the shoes because you can't start programming that on the day it just would never work. Yeah. I did want to, I didn't ask Owen this, but I've, so I didn't have Apple TV

for the longest time until I started interviewing people who had shot shows for them, but their catalog is excellent. And I was wondering, are they like very, do they make any decisions? Do you hear from them at all? Or do they just kind of pay for it? and move on.

Well, yeah, I mean, look it, personally, I don't hear from Apple. Like, David Goyard, the showrunner, and also, obviously, he's actually a producer, and he's also one of the directors of the show. He directed four episodes with,

um, all the last year. And, um, like, he would be the conduit through, uh, Apple TV. And he would be, he'd be chatting with them regularly. But like, David is such an approachable guy it was just incredible

I remember on season one actually sending him maybe this saying something about me but I remember sending him an email saying the color of the thrusters are you happy enough with this blue yeah no it was like the beggars

leaving terminus and it was like you know this color or whatever but the point I'm trying to make was like he's so approachable that you could actually talk to him and he's he's he's happy to sit down and talk and go okay that's the way you're thinking of doing that it's either cool or brilliant or what about this way or whatever but i found that incredible but in terms of apple tv i had absolutely no contact with them it was all

but i'm sure if they weren't happy i'd hear about you know yeah well that and that that that's like more or less what i was getting at because you'll hear you know like potentially like someone like Netflix might be more hands-on, you know, especially with the Netflix approval of cameras, which is really just ruined online discourse about cameras. Like something will come out and everyone goes, oh, it's Netflix approved. It's like, yes, you in your basement are not shooting a Netflix film. You can pick whatever camera you want. It doesn't, you don't have to worry about that. You had mentioned lenses earlier and something that I forgot to ask Owen was, I was I was I hadn't started season two so I had to kind of just go cruising through it

you know without trying to spoil anything for myself too much you know and as I was dragging my finger across the abet I noticed there's uh ratio changes like in certain episodes the the gets narrower and I was wondering are you guys was that just a stylistic thing or were you switching lenses no we weren't switching lenses we were what we didn't I didn't change the aspect ratio but i know um own did um with david directing he he did for um i think one of the worlds because yeah it was like the desert world or something desert exactly so they changed so it was just like uh we can do this like you know which was pretty cool and pretty brave i thought it looked great so you know yeah yeah i thought maybe they were like different anamorphics for the world or something

but just i i don't think they were the same lenses they're beautiful lenses um yeah what did you guys use bista visions so owen came to me and he said here call what you think of these and sent me video is like oh my god these are gorgeous i i'm no i could stand corrected i think they're the same lenses that they shot Dune with, but I could be, I could be incorrect on that, but they're basically old, vintage, full frame animorphic lenses re-housed

and their Panavision lenses, we used them on DXLs and they worked a treat. I mean, because they had so much character, sometimes they'd go out and you kind of have to have a phone call with Panavision going, any chance you can have a look at

this guy. But that's, I don't mind that. I think that's, you know, lens into the character of the lens and they certainly had character like you know different lenses would flare different ways and you know you just grew to new them or you know you know you grew to new to know to know what way they would react to certain light totally well and panavision famously will just like i mean i suppose it depends on how big of a production you are maybe not i've never worked with panavision but uh they'll just you'll be like hey i want this kind of lens and they're like, all right, we'll take apart three of these other lenses that you like and put

them together in this new one, you know? Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, and that's kind of what they did. Like, I know because we wanted to, I basically, we had one lens and I, we had 90, 35 and a 50, and I called, they were the fucked up anamorphics. So they were basically detuned anamorphics that pan of it, like I was looking for, anamorphosis with like too much character that it was like crazy so in the testing I'd like a day's testing of these crazy lenses like Panavision got me a good few to test but a lot of them were like

not not what I was looking for and then I happened upon this 85 I was like oh my god it's beautiful so it had this weird sort of stuff around the edges it was like you know it was like yeah say you know way back in film school not that I went to film school but I was like you know he put Basley, not the edge of the lenses, but in a good way. So it gave that as you pan through it, you'd see on the edges of the frame, you know, lights are, you know, elongate and then shrink again. And it was just beautiful the way it did it, you, you know. So we used that a good bit. Say in instances, I remember when, say Sal Byr and Harry have this big conversation about him being taken over by

Tell him or Tell him have an effect on him and we put lots of flare into the lens using mirrors and we have that lens and it's given that crazy you know so anyway we used that a lot

but Panter Vision was great that way to get these plucked up anamorphics yeah how do you like working I'm going to ask a question about lenses after this but how do you like working with the DXL I don't really run into people

who have used that often it's either Ari or well Venice tons of Venice or just strict red Yeah, I mean like the DXL I didn't operate in foundation so I wasn't

you know Too involved with it too involved with the physicality of it But in terms of image It was like it worked beautifully It worked very well for us And you know Because I know you were a fan of the Dragon Sensor

I saw that a lot Yeah Yeah I shot a lot on the Dragon And yeah, I showed a lot of features on the dragon and I saw, you know, projected. And I was very happy with the results, you know. And so, yeah, like, I think, like, to me it's all about the lenses. The cameras are so good nowadays. It's kind of like all the cameras are, you know, are all up there and go into a DIY

and you can get them to match without a massive issue. I'm certainly looking forward to shooting with the Lexx-35. I hear very good things about it. But, yeah, I mean, I like all those cameras. You know, I mean, it sounds terrible, but I should make a favor. No, I'm 100% with you. There's certain cameras that I, like, if a camera doesn't have internal NDs, I'm not using it. I'm just, I'm over it.

I'm over. I don't like Matt boxes. They're huge and unwieldy. You know, if I can just chuck in some, if I can just push a button and get an amount of it. Or even, you know, on the Venice where it's like, or is it the FX? No, it's the FX.

What do you hold on to? Yeah, I know, right? You got to get those spider grips that get all wet. I was, I was the second unit DP on this one film. And they gave me these spider grips. And they were made by shape. And the rubber, the rubber was just, the second my hand started sweating,

the rubber would just slide off and they have that oh god that you know the button the adjustment button was right where my palm would rest so I'd be standing there and then I'd slide and have to re-grip and then but then I'd push the button and it would do that and I was like if I had if I knew I was going to be using these I would have grabbed some hockey tape from

my bag and just yeah yeah because I've done that a lot actually do the top of the do this do this knob on oh yeah on on grips and you just really on the on top handles and stuff. It's funny, I don't use grips. As I said, I get a big, strong mapbox, and I hold on to it. And invariably, there's something from the map box that, you know, the lock mechanism or something, digging into my hand. And I don't know, is it kind of like self-flagellate or something? It's like, oh, I know I'm shooting the pain. No, I can't. It's like. But I do like being able to wrap onto a map box. Yeah. I saw.

I saw, what's his name? He does a lot of online content now. Oh, crap. He shot Terminator Salvation. He'll bet, Shane Hurlbutt. He'll just throw the spider grips on either side of the mat box, so you're not actually grabbing the mat box. They're just like right next to it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That works. But I did want to ask, going back to lenses, how do you, for some reason I never asked this, But how do you run a lens test? Like, what are you looking for? What are you shooting? You know, is it more of a strict, like,

color chart little twinkle lights? Or are you kind of just shooting whatever's in the room? Like, what's your process for that? Um, well, let's say, I ordinary, I try and have people in the lens test. It depends on the project, right? So, like, let's say for foundation, I did the lens test for me and that. now a couple of people said oh will you do this will you do that you know and we shot that

i did a lot of flare tests so when it would flare did the lights have to be in fraying could the light be away from the the lens to flare up and how it would deal with like light coming in and i mean obviously throwing it up on a chart and you're seeing where it's sharpen, because you're dealing with old, old glass, and a rehoused glass. Now, that can shift all the time, but sometimes that's useful, you know. Often I'll get, you know, my first to have a look at that and see what he thinks sharpness wise. And then I look at it as how it renders skin tone or, you know, I put up a tungsten light, I put up a HMI and see what it looks like under those conditions. So, and then, obviously, I do filter tests. I do like using filters.

softlers and just seeing if I need them on it or you know if if I don't or if it's a period piece or remember the alienist I did so many candle tests because I was going to have so many candles in shots and like what how those lenses dealt with you know candles etc etc

and then you know to get any bouncing of the light within the lens itself you know when they see a naked flame So it's trying to, I guess it's trying to hone in on problems before they've become problems. That's my sort of lens test. But like technically, you know, if a first AC says, you know, the bottom left-hand side there is a bit off, then I can talk to, you know, the technicians, lens technicians, and see if that just needs a bit of shimming or whatever it might be.

But sometimes that's cool as well. It's like, nothing needs to be sharp all of the tar. you know but are you still uh would you say the super speeds are still top of your list for favorite lens guys saw you were filtering those yeah yeah yeah i love the super speeds yeah i'm i'm a big fan yeah that's terrible and yeah i just love them because they're great ones they're beautiful and i think you know they are so small lightweight and close focus is incredible and the image I think is just gorgeous of them and but yeah I filter them I filter them with Hollywood black magic or you know sometimes a pro mist although I don't use promis a lot

glimmer glass or anything like that and you know I do it per shot and you know I take it in take it out use classic soft a lot as well yeah like classic soft um but yeah I used um actually used on pinky blinders I used super speeds and I think Hollywood black magic

most of the time yeah I really so I when I started you know my cinematography career as it were

I was using a lot of filtration because the cameras I were using were kind of shitty and so but I was mostly using like ultra cons and like digicons and stuff

just to try to get the you know dynamic range a little more in. And then a couple years ago, I bought it. I was actually the first or second person in the U.S. to get the C500 mark two. And that was cool. I got serial number eight, which you know, I was like, oh, good for me. But, you know, I was applying the same thought process to it where I was, you know, using my same relatively sharp lenses and throwing filtration on it. I just kept going like, this looks muddy. And when I just started shooting really clean on that camera,

everything just felt the correct amount of soft that sense you know it's a full frame sense I just felt that that tonality is just so smooth that I didn't feel so much that I needed the filter and also promis I think are very inelegant I much prefer the glimmer glasses if anything yeah yeah yeah and look it sometimes like I've looked back at things that I've shot and go oh this two to filter don't do it stop yeah but you know you have to go what you're good at the time, I think. Yeah. Well, it's kind of the same thing with, like, you know, lighting.

If anything feels too lit, you're drawing attention to it. And there's a certain amount of tasteful filtration for almost any shot that doesn't draw attention to itself. And then there's like, staring at a window with a black promis to that you're like, all right, yeah, turned everything into a cloud. Well, I mean, like when I said, I used filters a lot. I mean, I've never used anything more than a quarter. Oh, yeah.

an eighth or a quarter or something and again it is per shot and i don't mind using a one shot and then taking it out not using it on the next because it is quite subtle so it is very very much shot by shop basis you know well and especially nowadays once you get into the grade you can match the black point so it doesn't feel so drastic between the sounds you know where that contrast is lowered um i did want to know like what the way that uh because you said there's three dps on the on the on second season of foundation, right? How are you guys communicating and making sure that the look stayed consistent? Yeah, no, that's a good question.

And that's the same. I think, you know, it is a massive question when you've got different DPs on a show and trying to keep it. And I think it's like what I was talking about. Peaky there, you want it under the same umbrella. But it's like, I remember this, this is kind of weird. If I went on to owns, which I did, if I went on to own set or if I went on to Tico's set, I'd come out like, you know, wanting to, you know, pack my bags and go home because I would never be able to light like they do.

I'd never be able to light. That's how I feel. Right. Because I'm going in there, going, I would never have thought of that. I would never have done that. I'd go, like, look at Tico's thing. that's such a great idea. I'd never did that. Same as Owens. It's like, that's incredible.

But it took me a wild drill. It's not coming from me. The lighting isn't coming from me, so I can't. It's not the same thing. I don't, I'll get back to your main point. Go ahead. So, like, I kind of feel, okay, if I had to light that set on my own,

I think I'd make a good stab at it. I'd try and do it. And I'd do it to a certain degree where I'd feel, actually that's aesthetically pleasing and that's telling the story the way, you know, we should tell the story. So I definitely think that lighting

everything has to come from you. So it's not a case of say, you know, we're going into this set and it's like, Olin or Tico has been there before and it's like, I have to light it like them. I would never do that. I could not do that. I could

not say, let's do exactly what Olme did or let's do exactly what Tico did. because that's not the way I would necessarily like okay so but then by the same token half my brain is going yeah but it can't look different

that it looks like a different show right and I'm sure all and Tika were the same same way you know they're not going to light it the way I light it because they're you know they're coming from at a different angle I remember there was one set

when we were shooting early on in season two it was in Ireland the clone tank so it was a new clone tank so it was a big clone tank so I remember on coming in and

he was shoot I think he was shooting first and he had a scene in it where he was basically introducing the room for the first time and day is walking around what's Earth and they're walking around and he was going oh this is what I'm going to this now not that we

had this conversation, but like he was going to light it this way. And then for my scene, it was an F-10, and I don't want to give away too much here, even though it's out, but it's a different scene entirely. I don't know if you've seen that scene,

but it's like, you know, something majorly dramatic happens, let's say, in the clone practice. Sure. I'm kind of, yeah. So, anyway, I had to light it a different way, and I know, like, we kind of questioned it

and Rory the designer was going well hang you guys are lighting it a different way and it was kind of like I was kind of going well Ulm's scene is this and my scene is that my lighting won't suit allens' lighting won't suit my scene so it's like and then it was like

oh yeah perfect it was like okay that's justified that's all cool it's not going to look like a different show even though it's lit very differently but it's like you have to light the story as well. Now, I know that's kind of an extreme example. We would sit down and go, like, I would be able to, I would see all of Olm's dais or Tico's dais and they would see mine. So you have an idea of what people have done before, you know, and if a look is established, then you kind of go,

okay, well, let's keep with that. But the lighting has to come from what, what do you feel? Because then, oh, fuck, I, I don't want to use the word truthful, Because I'm not talking about truth here, but it's more truthful for you and you can feel it and you can, you know, augment it or change it to how you feel your aesthetic. Does that make sense? Absolutely. I've said it a million times. So anyone who's listened to this podcast, a lot's going to probably be screaming at me. But I've always said that technically correct is not always correct. Feeling is far more important. If it feels right. And also you're able to move a lot. more efficiently as in any job, let alone cinematography, when you're kind of entering, you know, and talked a bunch about this, like entering a flow state where it's less about nitpicking and trying to hit some, you know, imagine to target and more about just trusting yourself. And obviously that takes a lot of experience to be able to trust yourself. But going with like you're saying,

going with your gut, going with your truth for any scene, any shot, whatever, I imagine trying to match someone else's stuff exactly would slow you down by many factors yeah yeah yeah and it sometimes that's the most difficult times you have to you know you have to recreate what was shot i remember like for for episode one in foundation season two i have to recreate stuff that was shot outside in malta a year previous an exterior scene and I had to shoot that in studio

and that was the first day shoot and it was like oh my God this and that was the most difficult day of the whole shooting foundation season two for me because it was like I have to match lighting

to you know and it was lit beautifully and it was like daytime and nighttime but trying to get sky in trying to get that so it was you know it was just difficult so yeah it has

to be motivated by your own understanding of what looks good you know yeah was there was there a scene uh in any of your episodes that you were particularly uh pleased with just something you're like yeah i'd knock that one out of the park um i try to think er i did like say after the assassination attempt um day is brought in into the medical suite he's dumped in and the light changes and I just and then I like hard shadows of the lattice work that was done for the side and I brought that in and then I had like in the back there was scale in the building because of a shadow on a wall and I brought out the textures of the wall so I think I felt I brought out the best on that set which was a beautiful set and

and I was happy with that and I was happy with the movement on that I mean look at the like you know you might get some shots like you're never really happy with stuff and kind of go but then you kind of never finished it just escapes

yeah but then you kind of have to say to yourself look it stop being pretentious you did your best of what you had and that's the thing with foundation you can have whatever you want which puts too much pressure on you because it's like no one's saying no to you you have whatever you want to make this cool

the only thing you can't have is loads and loads of time you know but you can have whatever you like and that was just a joy to work with the Produce and Foundation because they never said no to me

you know it was great but that puts its own pressure so yeah look at I'm very proud of the stuff I did in Foundation it's funny like actually the first scene or scene I'd long chats with Alex about this

and it's like you know it opens up and it's literally the tagline a dark space in the script great dark space

I was going oh great you know but the left I was trying to justify so it's like the star but there's no spoilers here

because it's like the start of the series like but Harry is trapped inside the primary agent and he's in different places

and this it's a dark space and it's trying to rack my brains how am i going to do this so i came up with this idea it's very very simple it's like flash of light and a decay on him and it gives the sense of you know he's been walking here for a hundred years he's you know it's like as if he's walked this path a million times and like there's no way out for so and this sort of flash going on and also was like, you know, it gave that sense. Even though it wasn't a dark space, it gave that sense. And it did go to dark and flashed up and you could cut on that,

put from a massive big whys and into a close-up. And I was very happy I cracked, not that I cracked that, but it was like, yeah, that'll work, you know, and Alex was happy to go with that and Dave was happy and whatever. But that's one scene I was particularly happy with because, you know, starting with the dark space doesn't really, bold well. Yeah.

Well, it made me an easier question. Were there any shots from the other guys that you particularly enjoyed or any scenes? All of them. Like I said, like, you know, I'm looking at Owens and Tico's work and I'll go, God, I'd never be able to do that. You know, and that's being honest, that's not being pretentious or being, you know, like, it's all stunning. It's beautiful. Like I loved. Like, Tico had the throne room.

and I think I all had it as well where it was like in emergency modes they had it right down so it was like the light coming in, skipbound so suddenly we're seeing the throne room in a different different way. I shot the throne room for one scene where Queen Sarath is coming in for the first time

and it's this beautiful jubilant sort of you know here's two suitors meeting for the first time so it was like you know I had like mold beams coming in you know shafts of light coming in so it was very very different but then you look at tico stuff

which suited his his storytelling or owns i think i'm not sure who was it was oh and he brought it up to the emergency was it yeah it was just beautiful beautiful stuff you know so but again we're both telling the story in the right way but you know so yeah so that's kind of was there anything that you you saw them do that you're that you're like i'm going to use that on the next project any little like uh of course everything it's all cataloged i mean look at you know you go around you go oh that's a good idea um you know i remember um like you know seeing seeing how different people use different lamps or whatever it might be of course yeah and you know and that's the great

thing about say like foundation certainly we were all around the whole time i mean I remember in Prague, we had an office with the three of us, but like I'm allergic to offices. I can't be in an office. I'm sure the guys are the same. But like once or twice we're all in the office going, oh my God, this is so weird. Like, you know, the three of us are there. Which yeah, we'd often kind of say different things or, you know, comment on what we had done or whatever it might be. So like, yeah, it was, it is a collaborative thing.

but being perfectly honest the lighting certainly for me the lighting because it's so intricate there's so many things going on it has to come from you but you certainly do want it to look of the one series of the of the one world even though there are

many worlds yeah I did I asked Owen this and I figured I should ask you too and we touched on it a little bit but obviously Goyer has had his hand on a lot of amazing projects you know the Batman's and the blades and all that and I was wondering from your perspective what is it about the way that he

runs a set or runs a production that makes him successful if there's anything you could potentially point to I find um like David was just approachable or is approachable all of the time um like he's so sharp he knows everything about foundation he knows what like in five seasons, time, what's going to happen, what their character is going to be, he had it all mapped out, like it's incredible. So I remember like, you know, going on set, I know we were looking for there was an exterior shot, a big battle in season one. And I remember him being so excited because like he could be at this vantage point and he was like reenacting what the guys were going to be doing so he's down and he's like

taking shots at the you know the different but like he was so excited about it that's like he's nearly like a child in one way because he's so passionate and so you know so enthusiastic about things but then he's so

sharp like it's incredible so it was just like it was just a joy to work with him and I think like and I didn't direct or I didn't shoot any of the episodes he was directing but he was involved, he was involved across everything. Like, I'd be having meetings with Alex Graves, the director, who I got on really well with.

But, like, I'd often, like, David would come in, and suddenly I'm in this media with David and Alex and myself. And it was just incredible because it was, like, sparking off each other and, you know, the enthusiasm, etc. I like what I said before, like, I remember on season one, I remember emailing David about a shade of blue I was going to use. for, I kind of thought about afterwards going, he doesn't need to be thinking about this, but he replied and he was happy to do it. It was like, I stole a shade

of blue. It actually happened to be the shade of blue from the trusters in close encounters of the third kind that I stole. And I shoved it on. I don't think I said that, but anyway,

it was funny, like he's approachable on everything. He's just sewn to enthusiastic and he's all over it between the props between lighting etc etc and you know you'll walk by him in the corridor and studio and he'll say good job or whatever or and you know he he's just on it you know which is which is really great yeah do you find that um the you know successful showrunners or directors that you've worked with have a have similar traits or does everyone kind of a similar traits that make them successful, or does everyone kind of find their own way to get the crew going in the same direction? Yeah, I mean, look, I guess they're all different in many ways, but I think they shared the same trait of being completely passionate about it. They completely believe in the project at hand.

And I think you need that because you need someone to kind of go, you know, know they're up the top steering the ship and you need everybody to get behind them and they need everybody to hit it you know not to fall in line but like you know and the thing is they let all of the show runners let you do your thing that's why they've asked you to do to be there um you know which is pretty cool like i haven't been i've never worked with a showrunner where i kind of go and glad that's over, you know, I've always kind of, you know, had good times at showrunners because I think they're so passionate about it. Like I won't do a job unless I feel I can give something to it or so I guess it's like, you know, I'm trying to be passionate about

something or I am passionate about something. So it works in line with the showrunner who's ultimately, it's their baby, you know, and you're only, you know, you're only trying to help them make what what they want to make. And I think, you know, all David is doing is trying to bring out the best in you. And I think that's the ultimate trait of anybody who's a leader is, you know, they're trying to get people around them and trying to, you know, get the best out of everybody. And that's what he does, you know. So, yeah, it's good to be able to say those things about him, you know? Yeah, there's definitely, me and no one talked about this a little bit, but like the kind of like you're saying the fall in line I'm the I'm in charge person doesn't tend to you know the eventually the crew won't trust that person because it's like you know why would I give 110% if you know they're not going to let me fail gracefully you know or won't lean on me you know there's or there's people who will like take take credit for what you've done but then

blame you when you blow it or whatever, you know, it's not, it's not a, maybe not a galitarian, but it's not a give and take. I feel like people who are good leader. There's a great book called Extreme Ownership that this Navy SEAL wrote called Jockle-Wilnick, and it's all about how to lead a team. And a lot of it seems to be just like, if any, a great leader, like if anything goes wrong, they take ownership of it. If anything goes right, they take ownership of it, but also acknowledge when things, when people have done well. And also something that I think really fits with filmmaking is, you know, allowing people to have suggestions as you're saying or talk to, you know, come up with different ideas because you're not,

no one is ever 100% right. So why, and why would you stress yourself out trying to come up with all the answers when there's a whole team of people around you who probably also have good answers. Yeah, and as well, I think a trait is of a good show owner is you're going in one direction and if it's slightly turned or anything, if it's better, they're happy to go with it. You know what I mean? I'm not saying, you know, coming up with suggestions to change the course of the script or I'm just saying, you know, that it's like they're happy to evolve and that, you know, script is evolving. you know it's it's it's always changing it's always getting better but it isn't that it's getting better it's it's always adding stuff to it but so i mean i definitely think that's another trace

that so it wasn't afraid to change as you go on this i just remembered uh did you work with jennifer fong pong yes yes on season one yeah i interviewed her uh for this podcast for uh the flight attendant oh cool yeah yeah i think she went on to do that straight after Foundation thing. Yeah. Yeah, I wish I would have seen the show before I talked to her because I love, like I said before, I fucking love Foundation. But yeah, we're just talking about the flight attendant.

But what was your relationship like with her? Yeah, no, it was great. Jennifer was on episode, well, certainly six and seven that I did in conjunction with Danny Roman from Australia, as I've said before. and that was great I was coming in so I was again you know we went over to Malta together we just shot a lot in Ireland we're in Malta and then we're in the Canaries as well so we you know we did a lot of stuff together and a lot of big scenes and um no we we had a great time you know we really did and yeah it was you know it was my first for a into foundation world and it was great. Had you shot, I was looking to be it, but I don't, I didn't memorize it. Had you shot sci-fi before this?

No, no. I've never shot sci-fi. No, I don't think so. No. Was that daunting in any way or was it exciting? Like, coming into a, how to a stylist kind of thing? Like, it was really exciting. Like, the show hadn't come out.

I remember, like, I had been availability checked when it was starting. also and I wasn't available and I didn't even know what the show was and then as it was going all I knew some of the crew that had worked on it because they shot a lot in Ireland in the studio in Troy Studios in Limerick and um then um I got a call and it's like looker can you do however many months you know some in Ireland some and I said yeah sure and then I was reading about and looking up and then suddenly I was like they set me like episode one that had loads of holds it because it wasn't old shot yet. I was like,

wow, this is so cool. So I was really excited at that stage. Like, I'm a big fan of sci-fi. I love, you know, like we were talking about

Christopher Nolan earlier. I love interstellar. I love Blade Runner. Yeah. The new one and the old one. And, you know, and I love aliens.

So all of that is, like, it was just really, really exciting. You know, the idea that I get a chance to do this. And that's the privilege of doing what we do.

We get to play. Like, it's fucking nuts like you know we're so lucky to do what we do yeah they i do got to say the uh if you haven't seen alien on blue ray they they like rescan the negative uh remastered it it looks like it was shot yesterday i mean it's it's a wow it's a lot of fun well i mean the lighting has not dated in the sliders it's stunning it's right that yeah i mean like you could you could obviously the film looks a little different but like you could easily slot clips from that into your guys the show and it would that the modernity of it you know still still works yeah no it's

just credible credible yeah um well i really appreciate you coming back on to to finish up your thought because that would have been a weird one i've had to do that twice now where i'm like and the internet died so that's the end of that one you you paused with your eyes closed which was very disconcern thing and my god i'm really boring yeah no okay look at thank you Thanks for me for having me. It's been a real joy. I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, I really love the show. You guys have done a great job. So I'd love to have you back on when you said you're working on some right now. So maybe when that's wrapped up, you can come back and talk about that.

Yeah, we'll definitely keep in touch. Frame and Reference is an Alibod production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. As this is an independent podcast, we rely on support from listeners like you. So if you'd like to help out, you can go to buy mea coffee.com slash frame and ref pod. We really appreciate it. And as always, thanks for listening.