Frame & Reference Podcast - 124: "Hijack" DP Ed Moore, BSC

Episode Date: January 13, 2024

Today we're joined by the lovely Ed Moore, BSC to talk about his work on Hijack, with a heaping helping of Doctor Who chat as well. Ed's previous (and future) work includes Red Dwarf, Britannia, and Silo Season 2! Visit ⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠ for everything F&R You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 124 with Ed Moore, BSC, the cinematographer of Apple TV's Hijack. Enjoy. have you been watching anything cool recently well i've been um what have i been watching recently we just fit we we um i've just watched all of better calls all because we like came to it like 10 years late so if jordan like i feel like i've i've experienced all of better calls all in the last um um the last couple of weeks so that's that's been intended it's been a fun show to watch and now i'm just in in prep on this on this feature so

everything I'm watching is actually a movie magic schedule or a series of location photos so yeah my my viewing has dropped right off like all of us I've just got a incredibly lovelist I feel guilty about the stuff I need to catch up all these

the salt top there's absolutely right right yeah yeah right right yeah when I think during lockdown you know it's all that stuff like I'm going to get through the BFI top 100 that I've never seen and and then I watched YouTube videos of like people who are going to like most of them's long for free and it's really really high grass yeah and then you got a deep dive of that and I'm like okay I guess

I'm going to like watch like Kurosawa another time in my life but yeah there you go I did it was funny during the lockdown the the after 9-11 food network saw a huge spike in people watching the network stuff because that's comfort food and the same thing happened during lockdown is all the food YouTube channels got a huge bite. And then the one that was funny to me was Bon Appetit. You know, the magazine, they had a YouTube channel. Okay. And that YouTube channel got like millions of subscribers and everyone was all down with like this group of people and then come up to find out like Condi Nast or whoever it was like wasn't paying them. It was like a side project that just took off too fast so that they got like canceled immediately. Not the hosts,

but the you know the channel the whole the project yeah that was a good time did you did you watch a um uh breaking bad before like when it came out and then you've just yeah yeah oh t breaking bad yeah for sure and then um yeah so it was fun to go back in like that they came up with such a kind of distinct visual language that it's like then see often actually it's like it's you know it's beautiful you can see things and it's not in kind of stingy and gloom the entire time I remember, I had the real visual identity. Yeah, it's fun to watch. It is an interesting show in the sense that, like,

that was one of the first shows that I remember, obviously outside of, like, HBO that really had like a quote-unquote cinematic look because everything else on television that was like really good looking felt like house. But still very good looking, but not movie. Obviously, for ages, I was kind of like, obsessed with this sort of network TV stuff, anything that did like 22 episode seasons and were shot in

Vancouver or Toronto. And like, and they're amazing because like, you know, the kind of schedules, I thought, loads of TV drama and like, you know, I'm used to lots of bit like to be able to do like, you know, every, it was always like the key light for any

female character was always clearly like a 20 by 20th or something. And then you cut to the reverse of the guy and the guy was always cool chiseled hard life. Like a real house style and it would be like whatever you could intercut all of the shows together and they would all look like they kind of from the same thing. But it was a real like high-hand look, just the same one. But respect to pulling that out for 22 episodes every year.

Yeah, that was I was talking to the DP of, was it Joanna Coelop? Maybe. DP of The Rookie, which was an ABC show. And I used to work for ABC, but I was in an office. And I was like, and I knew kind of the corporate structure. And I was like, whoa, was there any mandates? And she was kind of cagey about it. But basically it was like, well, you do need to see both eyes and both eyes do need light.

And I was like, yeah, yes, there's a little bit. Yeah. Well, the first, like, job I got as a, like, main unit DP was this comedy series. And, like, you know, I didn't know a dwarf, but, oh, it was actually before Red Dwarf. I'd operated a Red Dwarf, and then as a result of that, I sort of, you know, cheated and lied my way into a lighting job on this show called Common Ground that I met with a producer, and they were like, oh, you know, it's going to be like 11 pages a day, and I was like, I don't know, that sounds, whatever, like, that's how I don't know.

And then she, like, looked me in the eye, I was like, do not try and win a BAFTA on my show. I was like, and I didn't, so, you know, you're welcome. Yeah, so that's the same thing of like, you know, if you can't see the eyes, it's not funny, which is probably used to everyone who does like radio comedy or funny podcasts. But you have to see both the eyes for it to be funny. But yeah, it was it's fun starting. I was pleased to have started my like DP career in comedy because you like you have to work quickly, which is the bread and butter of being a DP full stop, I think. And, you know, anyone can do it nicely, but can you do it quickly and nicely? But in comedy, like the, like any amount of kind of look and gloss you bring to it is like a bonus step.

So they're so excited. Like you make it look interesting as well. That is actually the, I'm giving away the cards a little bit. But that is one of the number one questions I look forward to potentially asking is like, how do you? Because a lot of shows, you know, it will especially television, you're shooting however many episodes. And especially for the ones that look really good, it's like, how did you do that fast? Like, I'm fast.

Well, with your show, you had 110 days, which is wild for, like, we'll get to that. But like, some shows, you know, where they're traveling all over the world, they're like, yeah, we had 40. You're like, how did you know that off? Yeah, it seems kind of, yeah, it seems wild. And I'm doing a feature now, and it's, what do we, like 30, 7, I don't know, maybe Yeah, I can't remember it, but it's in the 30s. And it's been so long since I did a feature that it seems like it could possibly

short. Like, when I wouldn't even notice, like, it's like, I wouldn't even need to charge my phone during the rest of this feature because the TV shows just become so long now. And especially I'm hijacked because I did a lot. Like, it's intense to be doing one thing for that long. Right. And not, oh, no, I actually know the answer to that. I didn't know when to spring this on you because it's kind of nerdy, but all the fucking

cars and stuff might give it away. I very much look forward to whenever I get to talk to any Brits, because nine times out of 10, they shot my favorite show, which is Doctor Who. Yeah, very proud. I've done that. I want any stories, especially because you shot Day of the Doctor and Time of the Doctor, which were fantastic. Thank you.

So, yeah, well, so those, then at the time of the doctor, I was second unit DP on. Hey, that's still there. That's still there. Yeah, I take it. Yeah, well, so that was, so Neville Kidd was the DP,

he's not an amazing work on shows like altered carbon, like top guy, and Brother Academy, I think Neville's done. So he, that's so, I can't remember which one, But suddenly the, so one of those was the one where it was, do you remember the bit where we shot everything in 3D and it was going to become like the thing? So one of those, I think it was Day of the Doctor was the, you know, the anniversary special was in stereo. So that was, I just need to see.

So, you know, back that was, you know, Alexa M's that no one remembers anymore in a like beam slitter rig. And now we have the Venice, which is, but yeah, now it has an election. Alexa M, you can't pull apart. Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, well, even then the Alexa Mini came out and we're like, oh, it's an Alexa M, they chopped the cable off. It was still the same size. But yeah, that was, that was super far.

Yeah, and I also was, and, you know, a huge Doctor Who fan and, like, all of the kind of the Matt Smith years of Doctor Who were like, my, you know, if it has like a bombs, like I had a doctor, I'm sure you have the same. And I was, you know, it was a, you know, it was a goal of mind to like you know one day light it so so yeah that was that was fortunate and then um i kind of you know that was but that was second unit and then i went away and kind of gradually worked my way up the the main unit side and then came back and i did uh four episodes with jody wittickick and a few years back and yeah it's just it's just a dream like i like really this you know there's

not like, you know, sneakily, I feel like I'm, you know, like I'm no longer excited when I see like a technocrine or whatever, but I was excited when I was on the TARDIS. Yeah. Like taking sneaky pictures of myself. It's pretty special. Like it's been, it's such an institution. So to be a small part of that way, I need to see stuff like just lying around the studio, be like, you know, some, because the prop store there is, is huge.

And they'd be like plastic crates and like spare TARDIS, like. and stuff. What? It's just sitting right there. Like, so yeah, getting through the name without just, I'm not going to miss that one. Exactly.

Yeah, they don't need. And then we, so we, the one of the ones I did, well, one of the ones I did, we shot in Tenerife,

which doubled for Gallifray, amongst other things. And, and we took, you know, we're like, other TARD is going to materialize, like in Gallifrey and then Jody.

Jody's 13, right? Correct me if I'm wrong? Yes. 13thag. Yeah, okay. So, yeah, and then she like opened the TARDIS and obviously you shoot the interior of the TARDIS back in Cardiff, in Wales and the studio. So, you know, I think I'd already shot that, with just like a dim down 10K for now, just direct into her eyes with the depth of the real TARDIS behind. I think it's on my website somewhere.

And then and then to go to Tenerife and shoot like the TARDIS materialized. We had the National Park at Tenerife. It's just this amazing location. And we had a crane set up. And we managed to persuade the AD to let me do it at sunset, the Manchester lighting. And we'd be shitty other stuff all day. And the guys had like taken the tarnis out there.

The crane was pre-reged. And we just turned them in a direct to turn up at the last moment. And there was the tARDIS, which is, you know, obviously it's just actually like five bits of work. Right, right. It's hidden together by some, you know, prop guys, but it's just sitting there with a little, like, flashing on top. Yeah, it's pretty cool. That's why we do it, right?

It's, I, it, two things about that show. One, I think it's the British version of, uh, uh, what do you call it? I keep trying to say Game of Thrones. That's not right. Um, fucking law and order. Because like anyone who works in New York, you end up working on law and order in some class. Right, right. They can't escape.

Yeah. So there's that. but it's probably the most enjoyable sci-fi. There's a lot of amazing sci-fi television out there. But I think it's the one you can constantly, even if you don't enjoy that episode or even if the doctor's not your favorite,

I think it's still enjoyable. You know, it's like pizza. It's like there's no bad pizza. Yeah. I think everyone involved. And when it's great, it's amazing. Everyone involved has, you're all sort of aware,

whether it's the various showrunners, you know, actors, crew, you're aware that sort of for a brief moment you're holding this sort of precious gem that it's mad and weird and not always pretty but like interesting and it's something that has been like treasured by just generations like of people. So to sort of, you know, and it's treated with such sort of, you know, deference and respect. And but I think it's compared to, I mean, I'm a big sci-fi nerd, of course, but there's something about the lightness of the touch on Doctor Who that sort of, you know, stayed through, like,

it's gone pretty serious and it's always been scary. But, like, it's just fun. Like, it's, you know, it's a license to tell stories that you just wouldn't be able to fit into many other genres. And, you know, I'm delighted. It's, and it's now, I need to catch up on the, on the new ones. But that's now been lent a whole new lease of life. Now it's sort of a co-production.

And, yeah, from what I understand, it's remark, you know, they keep coming up with great stories for this character. And, yeah, it's exciting you can see. Yeah, me and my girlfriend do the same thing. We're trying to speed through. We're about halfway through Jody's season to try to. to get to the, so we can watch the specials. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. Started. Yeah, yeah, great. I was, Matt Smith was also, well, technically it was, uh, David, but Matt Smith was, when I was in college, Matt Smith was like my doctor. And then I, when that season ended, I was like, I just met like, especially at the end of Matt, see, this is going to be a doctor who podcast now, especially at the end of Matt's tenure, it was astounded.

I was like, this man just spent like a thousand years in purgatory. essentially. Wouldn't he pissed off? And then the next generation is 12. And I was like, yeah, there he is. And that was like my favorite makes sense. Oh my God, I love that so much. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Well, after all the stuff with the War Doctor,

and that was such a great thing with John Hurt. That was really cool. Yeah, it's just fun. I was also, I mean, the masses of stuff, like, you know, Aurora, you know, and he's like became a centurion and guarded whatever it was called a com.

It's like, whoa, that's hard. Like, he was there for like a few thousand years. That's intense. But yeah, but it's always been, it's traded well in that stuff. It does like, it does awe and it also does slapstick. Like, there's not that many things that combine, you know, all of that stuff in one show. Yeah. So that we'll make this worth people's free dollar.

What was the sort of, did they kind of have like a lookbook that you had to sit with? And was that different between Jody's season and the specials or were you kind of allowed to do what you wanted? Oh, I think they, you know, all the episodes are obviously you have your sort of home base sets and things that are sort of lit. Not that you can't change it. We did some kind of like scary tired of stuff where the masters kind of getting his fingers into the system and we we mix it up in there. But, like, you know, by and large, all the adventures are in, by their own nature, fantastical and in different places and stuff. So you get some, you know, it's a treat.

Like, one of the episodes I did was when, I want to spoil us. It's been out for a while. But, you know, they go to an apocalyptic, you know, planet. And it turns out to be Earth. But, like, that was super fun. You know, we had all kinds of, like, crazy. Some of that was Tenerife. We had, in fact, the Tenerys stuff, it was meant to be a, you know, we went there because we wanted like, you know, the Canary Island sun.

We were shooting in like early January and it was, we needed like a sunblasted planet because humans in the future like, you know, we destroyed the environment. And so we went out there for that to the kind of volcanic mountains and we built the, they built this amazing sort of six wheel truck. out there for this big exploring. We got their entire islands completely covered in cloud. This is completely thick as far as like. And so we're just sitting on the top of this mountain being like this. Jody's like

I can't say this. It's makes sense. She's got like dialogue with me like, look at the way the humans have destroyed the environment and all you can see is scorched earth and you literally couldn't see like two feet of front of you. Right. So the producer is like running down the hill to find phone signal to call back to

Chris Chibnall being like, we need to the dialogue so it's like look at the uh you know toxic gas and smoke yeah thought so yeah it's a bit of ducky diving but now i mean in terms of look like you know i think it just inherently like it's in your blood like it's it you know you know you know doctor who um so it's just it's a fun toy box to to play in um the crews you know the camera crew all that done it for many years the lighting crew as well and things so they can kind of help you but like you're painting in broad strokes and you're very aware that you're following

in the footsteps of just like a, you know, just a long history of brilliant DPs he's done it before. So yeah, it's fun to just add a little marks to the bottom of the tapestry. Yeah, it makes seven metaphors. I got to interview the costume designer

for like the first three seasons and then she moved on to, I believe it was Game of Thrones. Or no, it was The Witcher. And then a, a DP from the well a couple of different seasons but the person I'm thinking of did

the Eccleston season and I was like that must have been a strange or no the one straight after the Eccleston season I was like that must have been a strange change to go from like weird theatrical backlighting of just purple like there's like a purple par can just in the shot

yeah yeah that's in there to yeah I guess Matt Smith which was very, like, polished up. Yeah, well, the galaxy looks where they, yeah, well, that was, they, uh, they went on to the, the short-lived soly F-35 and suddenly everything was, you know, yeah, blurry backgrounds and so, yeah, and big sky panels and things. Yeah, exactly, yeah, blurry backgrounds and sky panels that, that era was upon us. And so, yeah.

Going back to the, I mean, because it, I assume doctor is kind of the same, but you, The initial question I had before I got super distracted, which was, what did comedy shooting and I suppose Dr. Hood to a degree teach you about moving quickly? Like, were there any kind of tricks that you picked up that allowed you to get like a, let's say, a high budget look in a fast environment? Well, I think it's, yeah, it's great like that because it concentrates your mind on like, this sounds redact. but like if you if just in tb world like if you're not completing the call sheet there's sort of just there's no point there's like table stakes so you have to get through the stuff and then i think it and then it's on you like as you know with your with the artist side of your job rather than just the sort of like facilitator then it's like how can i get you know what i how can i offer more creatively in into this um but like that that metro room is constantly ticking and and um You know, I think that's, it's helpful to learn in those conditions. So compare it to like, you know, people learn to play the guitar. It's like you can either kind of like spend ages trying to get your fingers

onto the right place before you strum or you just always keep strumming. And like if your fingers have to figure it out. And that's a better way to learn because eventually, you know, they go, oh, okay, crap, we've got to do this. So I do really believe the basic tenets of like making a you know a beautiful like lighting on on a person or a scene like it's not that difficult like if you you know the kind of the core skill is like at least pre visualization you should be able to sort of you know know the statue inside the block of marble before you start chipping away that comes first but like the you know the ingredients. that make something look appealing or interesting or most importantly like fit the way the story feels and the characters feel like are not that difficult

but like doing it doing like 10 strips a day like that and with location moves is harder so you learn I you know years before I'd done theatre lighting as just like a you know when I was 15 I was doing follow spots and theatre stuff and then in theatre lighting you're like a space, you know, you're never lighting a shot. The shot is the proscenium arch or whatever and everything has to happen within that. So I guess I came into TV in film lighting with a little bit of that mentality.

So I try and light spaces and environments more than shots and that keeps the equipment out the way. It tends to look more natural anyway. And then you, you know, you're in a good position to tidy up a little bit for close-ups, on top of an environment that that exists. I've tried to keep in with that as a general rule. I want the

obviously I want it to look beautiful and interesting but it's more important to me that the actors and the directors have space to work. If they are, if I'm hampering that and I think it's the you know the cart leading

the horse a little bit. Is that the right expression or a tail wagging the dog certainly? Like it's We're there to capture the performances and like it's my job to support the performances and photography that sort of, you know, amplifies them and seats them in the story the directors trying to tell. So, you know, and occasionally I think that, you know, the pendulum swings too far for me and I feel like, I just, I pulled my punches slightly and I need to stand up for myself a little bit more and be like, guys, just let's pause.

let me just get this and you have to and the you know as the years have gone on i've i've realized you know more when the the opportunity you know when i need to do that yeah um because yeah just no one's there in the grade you know no one's there when the show goes out looking at kind of like a slightly mediocre shot and being like hey but like we wrapped 15 minutes early remember that like you know so so there's that like it's you you can't go that far um but also if you just if you're constantly, you're taking so long lighting that you're not really turning over to like two hours into the day or you're just, you're, people are only getting a couple of takes and then that's not serving anyone. And in the UK, or of, you know, mostly worked, you know,

we don't have to say lengths of hours that tends to happen in US shooting. Like, we're pretty much like 10 hours on camera. And I'm very aware that of that time, what the directors actually, if the directors had like a, you know, a chess stop watch and, you know, measured the time that the directors actually have to work to do their thing to, you know, that no one is telling them, we're just setting this up, we're just moving this, or there's a car coming through, or we're waiting for the actors that comes from the trailer or whatever. They really have maybe like two hours, about 10 hours to actually a thing. And I just, you know, I think it's on me and the other heads of department to try and extend that

and not get you know not put our stuff in the way of giving them that time yeah i was talking to one of uh finchers dps it was either eagle or mezer schmidt but uh he was saying that they the the mandate was that the camera department the camera equipment had to fit in a sprinter van and they had to be ready to go in 15 minutes yeah yeah yeah it was just like i'm not well we're not playing this game we're just going to fucking shoot it like oh man well i was lucky enough to hang out with Eric Messersch made recently we were both on a panel in a film festival and yeah I mean it's just a joy um I he's an extraordinary DEP and an absolutely lovely guy but I I love this good job in I you know Fincher I'd like I think I would be kind of scared to work for but like

he's you know he's a remarkable filmmaker and I I love the um you know the social network making of still like one of the greatest film schools you can um absolutely and I really remember like I remember watching years ago, and it's like day one. The social network had like Finch's walking on the set and they're discussing the first scene and like boom guys like saying something and Finch is like,

this is the last time I ever want to see you. Like, you know, there should be no reason why we ever like maybe you can pay BN like be here or whatever. And he's like, no, it's not what we're doing. And I do think that, you know, there is, you know, without sort of touching on um you know personalities and stuff i always respect it when people are just like unwilling to

to let things slide to be like no no because actually like on a film production like so many people like want you to move i mean i i take want you to move on what you to say it's fine i tasted a tiny bit of this on hijack actually because i ended up directing sort of second unit staff or or um you know picking up a few elements here and there and some of it was like quite beat sequences with and one of it happened to be like the last day and the and the entire unit is like like it's it was really interesting like just feeling for a moment being the shoes of the director and just feeling everyone wanting you to say yeah it's great move on and you just and you have to be like no it's it's not we're all here everything is we'll never be in a more perfect

situation to get it better than right now so let's do it and And actually, people respect that. People want, they, the set needs that voice. They want someone to just be like, let's get it right. And as long as you're all, you know, an ass about it, then people respond to that. And it just encourages people to deliver when you know that there's just no chance someone's going to be like, oh, okay, whatever, that'll do. You know, so it's a finish. Well, it's, it's, you've kind of strung together like the, uh, the sort of spectrum of,

what I'm thinking of which is at the first point you've got oh no I spent too much time talking shit I was saying I forgot what the first one was but so there's the element of standing up for yourself and figuring out like where when and where you're able to do that

the first feature I was ever on I didn't do that and I was the second unit DP and I fucking should have or even just making suggestions they're like here's our gear list and I was like I could bring some stuff, but I was like, they know better than me. And it's like, why did I do that? Like, I know, I know better than me.

Like, I should have said something. Not that the final product really suffered in aggregate, but, um, but to your point about the guitar analogy, like if, if you spend so much time trying to make it perfect, it'll never be perfect, but you've got the rest of the crew. You got your production designer, your costumer. You've got the editor, the colors that can, if you keep playing, you know, if you miss a note, you've got everyone else to kind of pad that, um, pad that song, as it were, pad the scene.

Yeah. And then finally, figuring out when to let go. You know, when good enough becomes the enemy of a... Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting sometimes when, because it's easy to see in, you know, in your own team, like sometimes, you know, it's common for a focus filter to be like, ah, God, we have to go again, we have to go again. And because there's like a buzz in a bit, because when, pushing on the focus pillar, you know,

just because it's a good example of something where you're so focused on a particular aspect of it that sometimes you don't see the woods to the trees and someone could, you know, you can have like Meryl Street absolutely knock out of the entire set is like in tears and the focus but it's like, that take might as well

just drag that straight to the freaking bin. There's no point. So sometimes, yeah, and then sometimes it's like Oppenheimer and the guy's ears, you know, the only thing in focus for half the scene. But yeah, like anybody see it. in my own thing sometimes where

because it's such a long process from that you read a script you have an inkling kind of a cool lighting thing I can do on this scene and then you sit and gradually you're working your way through like getting the right kit you need to do that on the list seeing the location seeing it again persuading the director and

doing it on set and then it doesn't quite work and it's all your brain is just at that point it's become like so narrow on this one thing and that's a trap but you know it can also be a huge you know

boon to sort of be to have the attention to detail on one thing and as you say it's like you know I'd well to to borrow a spiral tap phrase it's such a fine line between clever and stupid sometimes you sometimes you've got to hold out for it sometimes you don't yeah

well the only way to figure it out is to keep working but I think that's the hard part is just not being so precious with your work that um yeah keep it moving and that's the difference like you know i think between um you know commercials work in and drama is that like you know commercials um you know you just work over and over the you know 10 or so frames you've got and everyone is like how can we prove this how can we prove this and like you know drama it's just impossible to to keep that up there's just it's a marathon of a sprint there's going to be of frames that are not like

your super fave there's going to be one of those actors is going to get themselves against the wall the color of like you know pale sallow flesh and there's going to be nothing you can do and you're going to be like

maybe the colorist will save me that's just the nature of it but if that actor is just breaking everyone's heart over there then that's going in the movie and that's the job yeah yeah I think that's the hard thing

is DPs too is like you got a younger DPs I should say or like newer DPs is like the acting is the most important part that's why anyone's there they're not there to see your cool backlight or your sweet anamorphic flare

so you gotta make sure that that gets preserved more than anything and then well it's you know you're the custodian aren't you like you're you know you're holding that slaying for the director and you know also like it you know should be said if not you then

then who like you know nobody else on that set is sticking up for the look of the movie. Everyone's going to be happy to take credit for it if you win some awards or something. I'll be like, oh yeah, of course. We were all really behind, we're behind Kenny when he like, you know, held out for that.

You know, we're only shooting this magic hour or whatever. Everyone will suddenly be like, I'm taking credit. But yes, it takes a while before you know, like, you know, where to push it. Yeah. So with Oh man, a great transition, Ken.

So with hijack, you had a lot of the show in a tube and kind of going to our idea about moving quickly and stuff, but also protecting the performances. How did you keep, did you focus on trying to keep that set interesting in some way? Because in one way, it's a very stylized look to the show. But in another way, it's incredibly natural looking. Um, and it's, it's, it's very fascinating how you were able to, um, tow that line between like, you know, I don't know, Jason Bourne. I don't know what you want to call it. And, which could just be the great. And, uh, a very like, clean look. It's not dark and, you know, muddy. It's, it's incredibly clean and sharp and contrasty. And yet still natural. Well, thanks. Um, and, and, and thank you for acknowledging the tube. Um, because I, I, I, yeah. I went from hijacked already on to Silo, another show set entirely oriented to you, orientated a different.

So I'm waiting to complete my trilogy, maybe a submarine or something like I told my agent, or maybe just a custody driver set entirely outside. But yeah, sure. Well, and thank you for your kind words. And it would be, you know, yeah, what do you do when you're in one precincts for that long? I mean, I'd say probably 80, 85% of the show is on that.

plane. And that was the, you know. And in real time for people that don't. Right. Right. And it's a, it's a world that we've all been in. Like everyone's been on a long plane. It's not a, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a, it's not a spaceship where you can do cool whatever things. Like you have to, it, the show was never going to work unless you, it was sort of at least, you know, the, the, the cinematography and the sort of the setting that production design was kind of, like the straight man as it were like it had to be had to be like this is it like we're in this is real um and um you know the nature of the things were happening were obviously heightened and and and so the synography you know had to also feel that way um but it we we never want that

Jim Phil Smith um right from the start was like you know this can't feel like the um this is not like the euphoria of hijack you know this is we we this is not that like this is not like this is the camera needs, we need to feel, as the audience, in this pressure vessel with these people, there's no escape, there's no, we both, I think, really early, well, Jim probably felt this from the second he came up with the project and then he let me pretend like I thought of it later on as well. Good idea, Ed. Yeah, I've been prepping this for a year. Yeah, but yeah, we're like, let's never take a wall out. Let's never take chairs out. Let's, let's, let's make it really uncomfortable for being the operator to sort of get the camera where we want because

you know it just if as soon as you get into that we talk about the network TV look as soon as you get that thing where you're feeling like huh we're sort of on a 75 mil there's no wall here like we're clearly the cameras are like I think whether or not you've worked in TV you feel that um that disconnect um so um yeah and then you know in terms of lighting you know it it's It's back on some of the topics we've hit already. You need to be able to work quickly. There are, you know, we were delivering, you know, 35 setups a day, you know, pretty frequently on that. You know, and so to be able to work at that pace with an aircraft that was loaded with 30 speaking roles,

like a further 100 supporting artists that you're seeing in all directions very frequently, like, you know, Jim, we, you know, we wanted to do lots of sort of, you know, moving camera storytelling up and down the lengths of the entire aircraft. So it had to be, you know, I had to come up with a lighting design that was going to enable me to, you know, quickly shape a look. And, you know, I think it's, you know, it's now very common to have, you know, a lighting program. It was, I, I, I, I, I, because I came from theatre, that's always been my thing about how to someone, you know, from that world. It was crazy to me. when I first started and I was like

what are these metal things you put in the light to dim it? This is Rosset and also why do you clip the gels on the outside of the barn door like the gels go in the front anyway so yeah we had I think 6,000 control channels of lighting

on that aircraft as in Jacobs just genius Descope who I've worked with many times and she comes from you know the world of live events at opera where they're like this is like a pathetically small number of fixtures. But it meant that we were able to, you know,

wherever the cameras were pointing, you know, quickly control, you know, contrast ratios, try and get a kind of a look into it. And yeah, and the other thing that, you know, when we started prepping it, I was like, oh, and at least, you know, obviously we'll make it so the plane has like a sunset and a sunrise or whatever during the journey. No, that's not how the timing of the script.

work they are in like full daylight the entire journey um they're flying east to west so that you know the sun basically doesn't move i actually i did the fly thanks group writer to yeah it's nice um but i was like you know it was but it was kind of an advantage because um we we couldn't move the set um it was just too too long a shoot to put the whole thing on on hydraulics or anything. We did that a little bit for the fly deck. But I was like, okay, we need to have a sense of movement in the plane and I want to have like that, that thing we're all familiar with where you have the harder source like that's kind of almost annoying and it's tracking through the cabin as the plane rolls. I don't know. So I ended up building the whole set

and the whole studio actually in Blender and 3D and like playing around and I wanted to, I'd done plane stuff before, but like, you know, you tend to have like smaller sets of like 20 rows deep or whatever for kind of doing like a scene here and there and you know like a lot of dPs i've played with this where you put like a 20k on a camera crane and you swing it around and you get different stuff but the trouble with that approach is you you know you have a single source not that far from the set and then the the angle of the beams changes throughout the set and you sort of give away that your your son is 30 feet outside the window and not one one astrarchal unit away

so I was like okay we need parallel beams and so parallel beams equals one one light source per window so we add 75 windows down one side fortunately only one side because the aircraft was always heading the same

direction so I found the brightest moving headlights I could which is like the concert lights yeah Robi BMFL which I thought it was B-FML, which I kind of assume of a big fucking moving light,

but it's not that. This was a like a discharge light. They were kind of messy and old and we had to every day and see he had to like change the level of green to comp, you know, out of all of them. But we had, they were the brightest light that I could

get with the smallest edge to edge width because the spacing of these windows was like 55 centimetre centres. I needed something that I could fit 75 of these in a row on one huge truss. Okay, next problem, we need to move the truss up and down smoothly, so not like standard right, motor.

So I found this system, it was Kinesis system, which is kind of a little bit more like motion controly, you know, it's for like super clubs where they have animated truss moves. And so, you know, that gave us the trust moving up and down. that we could make a light change. But okay, now we all are moving lights and they're pointing at the studio floor and then they're pointing over the top. So Ziggy, I've like, gauge this problem to Ziggy.

I was like, you need to get this thing to talk to this thing. So yeah, eventually she, with the aid of like 12 computers, which she translated one thing to another, as the truss moved up and down, this thing was like, I think 80 meters long, weighed three tons and it had 75 of these moving lights on. as it moved it would it would tell her lighting desk like it's this height and then it would map the tilt angle on the fixtures so that they they would all tilt through so it was like a lot of work it was obviously very expensive and I had to sort of persuade a lot of people that it was going to be worth it when we finally fired up and you saw this like you know you sit in the set and you'd see all those like window shaped lights just sort of move through the thing Your brain just goes, oh, I know this.

I've seen this. Like, you know, on a million flights, it's like, we're turning into LAX. It's like the last, you know, the last bit of the flight. It's such a sort of like, you know, you're like a visceral gut level. You're like the plane's moving. I was super, super happy with it. And it just, it gave me it like the discharge flights spotted right down. We had to shatter them all off each window.

So they never spilled into the next one. If anyone's wondering, hey, but how do you do like turning left the right. I didn't do that. That was pretty complicated. It was impossible to do left than right. We'd have had to track the entire trust left and right. It was already costing a fortune. But the rolling weren't super

well and having the super hard discharge source coming through and just letting that be like four stops over gave a really good way to build

an exposure off because you just used to that in a play-due, used to there being just bits that are, like, annoyingly bright. Obviously, I played the angle of the sun lower than it kind of would be, because it's more fun to see Idris Elba are all backlit. But, so, yeah, and then, you know, so there are, the entire show that trust is moving slightly to sort of in cruise note. And then there are moments where it's turning, rolling more in bigger moves, some of more of which I would have liked to have ended up, you know, uncut apart in the final show. But I do, you know, I think it's in there and it's giving you this subconscious sense

of this aircrafts on the move. And it helped for the cast as well. You know, I think the, when we loaded everyone in to the first time or we're playing this stuff and they're seeing the, we had virtual production screens outside with clouds and stuff

and you're feeling this thing. You know, when we started the first big move, people were like, whoa, okay, you're moving the set. And so, you know, I think their health performances. Absolutely. Well, and I, and I've always wondered if, like, the virtual production people get kind of ill when the, if they're looking at, you know, if they're looking at where the camera box is like moving around. But being in an airplane with the lights moving way worse. Because it's like memory colors, right?

You know where that's going. Yeah, yeah. So surreal. I mean, particularly like the, um, You know, I did some, I just did like scream recording. Like, as it happens, I'm a huge flight sign nerd. You know, this is a, so this is funny. Yeah, but I like, I don't really have all the things, all the controls.

Like, I stopped playing with it for a year. I've got to say, for some reason it was, like, I got it out of my system once we shot this. But I'd like, I recorded, I just did screen recording some fights with like the takeoff from Dubai. And, you know, the graphics and fights are now crazy. Yeah, and pulls it all from everything. And we played that, like, looking out of the window, and I've got some, like, you know, video on my phone. There's a camera focus pillar, Jason, just sitting there as, like, Dubai just took off. And the lights whereby were just like, this is so cool.

Like, you know, you feel like you sort of, you've created like an illusion. Like it's, you feel like you're working for, you know, imagining suddenly rather than just, you know, doing a TV show. I wonder if you guys, are you guys like, maybe not the first. But do you think you're kind of like near the first people to do that? Because I don't I don't know how many people are using virtual production. I would always say, I would hesitate to say the first. Well, I mean, Eric Messerschmidt did a whole movie with devotion. Oh, yeah, that's a good point.

I go wrong. I have actually, weirdly, we were, you know, we, so I don't know about first, but like, certainly I think we're the. I would be surprised if anyone has filmed longer on an aircraft than we have for anything. And, you know, there's been beaches. And, you know, we'd watched, you know, we watched United States of 93. We watched Air Force while we watched all the things you would think of. And, you know, there was a sort of, you know, there were things we like, things we did.

Snakes on a plane, I'm sure. Snakes on a plane was our main one. Yeah, that was just like create, just the base creative vibe of snakes of planes. Yeah. I think it's obvious to anyone who's seen hijack. It's the juice. But they

all offer stuff but just like for just sheer number of shots like on a plane. I feel I'm fairly safe and like no one has been crazy enough to just if there's an angle on an airliner that I haven't done I would be surprised at the stage.

Well part of me is wondering like you know the I'm going to say something after we get off but I was for some reason or another I was watching Interstellar

and yeah the nope already lost it but now that's dumb now that's done I'll just say it in two hours

I'm interviewing Hoyta okay that's pretty cool so we'll get if you want to ask him anything let me know before we go but can I have your career are you using your career

could I borrow it for a bit yeah but all the plane stuff was cool but oh oh so in interstellar they um you know when they were designing the black hole the wormhole that ended up being like a scientific paper and i'm wondering if all that work that ziggie dig did getting all of the computers to talk to each other and all the lighting rigs to i wonder if that could become a paper because i can't even get two excel sheets to talk to each other yeah well yeah i I mean, we kept, you know, it was a show for Apple, and they were a whole bunch of, like, one of the key components of that system was some, like, really cool, like, indie software that an Apple developer has written. It was at the heart.

So, like, every time some of the, like, Apple, you know, press team or things were there, I was like, you guys, like, look at this. It's like Apple stuff, it's cool. And they were like, no, we kind of like, you know, Idris Elba. And I was like, are you sure the software is kind of, I, you know, I think that the right Apple audience they would have been into the lightening software. But yeah, I mean, it's, you know, when all that works for the first time, like, see, yeah, we're high-fiving because it was like, like, it's one of those things where you go, like, intellectually, that should be fine. Like, but then the number of, like, technical hurdles that you've got to overcome to kind of get it all working. And then for it to just kind of work flawlessly for 110 days.

It's pretty special. Well, I just yesterday interviewed the DP of Lessons in Chemistry, one of them, which is a different Apple show. And I ask them this, and I want to ask you, because obviously certain studios are more hands-on than others, was there any kind of creative input from Apple, or were they just kind of there to help facilitate whatever you need to apparently computer-wise I didn't even think about that because I mentioned this to him

and he respectfully disagreed and then I came on to his side which was all the Apple shows look the same is what I said initially but what I really meant was not like ABC shows but like look the same in the sense that apparently Apple is just picking

really high quality work like they all look the same in that they all look really good and my brain yeah that too They all look. No, big recovery. It's your show especially doesn't, but, or silo for that.

Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, obviously, I think they all operate in their distinct sort of, you know, creative creations. I think that they, you know, how much dealing did I have directly with them? I mean, they only want quality. Like their brand is about, like, super high-end quality and just, you know, the sort of, whole it just works for all so like it's you know and you know we're all aware that like at the you know at apple tv stuff is is kind of like it even though it's this all these big budget shows is a drop in the ocean compared to the other parts of the company so that i think there is um or certainly like i i felt like you know this the shows are an extension of the brand

in the sense that like you just expect you want to Like if you go into an Apple store to buy whatever, like you just have assumptions about how that is going to work and feel and present itself. And it's the same with the shows. And I think they, you know, take a great deal of care in how they pick and support and develop projects.

And they, you know, stuff just doesn't get to this stage unless it's, you know, they have super good feeling about it. You know, they were, you know,

like, you know, exactly like, the other big studios and streamers the you know specific producers and production execs and things always you know they want you want to expect you to present your ideas you know they but they you know you sort of already pass the hurdle by being high in the first place because it's hard to get hired on these shows um you know so they they they want and can expect the best you know they um they can kind of get whoever they want um so um

Yeah, I, you know, I think they, I think that's a good way of saying it, that they are united in quality. There's, there's nothing bad looking on the platform. And they don't, you know, they've got no interest. I think in just sort of like, you know, putting a ton of content up. Like, they'll put stuff up when they think it's good. Yeah. And that's like, why wouldn't you want to work for a company like that? Like, it's just the interest is in quality.

well and I think that's kind of the this this is a half-cooked idea because of the implications of online like having everything on one network like we used to do with Netflix but like I feel like that's kind of the future is like it's a better I compare it to the criterion streamer which is like it's curated right it's easier to go on Apple or I guess in a way Disney Plus because it's you know that's pretty curated but there's just a lot of it or criterion, which is you turn it on and there's maybe 50, 100 things you can pick and they're all good versus like old school Netflix or even current Netflix to a degree. Nope, no shade on Netflix, but there's just a lot of stuff on there. And you turn it on and you're just inundated with so much choice that you end up going like, ah, fuck it, I'm going to watch TikTok, you know? Yeah, right. Yeah. No, no, it's true. Like, and I think you've just got, you know, if you just are randomly like hold down you know right on the controller and just press select on on the apple platform like you've got a really a chance of watching a quality piece of work for sure yeah i did want to ask uh how did you this is a slight pivot but um i i have the uh preserving the vision book oh sure and uh i was wondering how you uh how'd you get into the bSC uh well i mean now it registered it's like a wow, I was, I was lucky to get in.

Yeah, so I was in a 2018, and, you know, it's this, I can't remember where we're up to now. There's, you know, on average, the BSC is about a hundred full members at any time. And, you know, it's something to aspire to. And I think we'd all see those initials after people's names. You're like, what does that mean? And you go on that journey, you know, and you sit in as a, you know, you're a, you know, You know, when you're in the industry, and if you're like, you need work on a job

and so with the BSE person, you're like, oh, my God. Oh, it's like in awe, which immediately evaporated for me the second I got in. It's like the Grouchova saying I want to be a club that'd have me as a member. It's like getting in the magic house. Yeah, I mean, yeah, right. Yeah, I'm sure.

Yeah, so, but yes, I, the magic house in the BSC, very similar. Super similar. I mean, so it's, yeah. A bunch of nerds standing in a room. Yeah, exactly. being like just slightly sniffy about a nerd who everyone perceives

to be doing slightly too well for the right right right yeah it's just the same and the so the BSC a brilliant DP Najee Walters was kind of to nominate me and you have to be nominated and seconded

and all that kind of stuff and and you have to send in I really like this like you send in like 10 minutes of stuff, but it has to be like sort of unedited, basically. You can't do like snippy, sneaky show rules. You have to send sort of

excerpts. And I can't remember if I'd go on the first time the second time. I feel like it was I can't remember. I think there was I was steered away the first time and then the second time yeah, I got that call. I was on set

shooting a show call the feed and we're just about to start as that long, exhausting night shoot. And I got the call from Nigel to say the um yeah you've given the thumbs up and and now i know a bit more seen it from the other side like you know the bc is picky like you know you it takes a while for your name to be to sort of work its way in and then um uh you know the the i haven't um uh been able to to help out with the sort of selection panels so far as always been working on something when it's come up

But like, you know, they discussed the work in great detail and sort of go over stuff. So it's, um, yeah, it's been a real treat. Like I, I bet the BSC has always sort of invited, you know, the, the, the events and dinners and stuff. Um, I've been along to beforehand. So sort of knew a load of the people. And, um, you know, I, I would love to just be contributing more to the society, to be honest. I'm so proud of being a member. Uh, I, you know, I know.

now have two kids and I'm like working all the time. So like I need to fit it in. But like it's so fun. It's just nice to to have a thing where everyone, you know, everyone the organization shares the same issues that you do and the same sort of hopes and dreams and stuff. Like do you even be in the same organization as like, you know, Roger Deacons, John Matheson and stuff. And, you know, that's pretty extraordinary. I did go to the, you know, there is a thing about the BSC which is, You know, it was also slight, very British. It can sometimes feel like a sort of golf club meeting. And I remember the one time I was at MBS lighting, very kindly invited me to the ASC Awards.

And it just had the hilarious, like, additional level of glam and pizzazz that you guys do so well. I guess I was sitting in a, first of all, it's in this gigantic thing. I think just, you know, down the road. from the Magic Castle. Yeah, you would literally see it from the clubhouse, yeah.

Right. And we were in this huge venue and I was like on some table of the edge and the award started like Maddie Liebertick was presenting and he has like, you know,

he's doing like sort of like late night TV level like gags and like everyone's, you know, there's like back and forth. There's amazing AV. And then the, they're like,

okay, to present the first award, there's like so many awards. The first award was like best cup of tea made by a camera trainee on like a low budget documentary set in like Wisconsin and they're like to present this award Samuel L Jackson right actually and then Sam Jackson and then it only went out from there and I was like wow like these guys like do like you know it helps being in Hollywood when you're doing your award show but like

the BSC ones and I have to say like and now like super cool like we've we've got them you know Chris Ross, the current president, has gone on fire on all cylinders and things, and they're pretty kitsy. But, yeah, they're both really fun organizations. Yeah. Obviously, it's, as you said, like a point of personal pride for sure. But does it help you work-wise? You know, this is half creative, half artistic in this industry.

Like, do people see in the letters and get excited? I think it's, yeah, it's hard to say because it's hard to sort of track the implication it's had. I mean, I felt like initially it's something that probably matters more to us, nerds. Like, it's a bit inside baseball, and it matters less to sort of, yeah, maybe. I think that probably as I started sort of being put up for these biggest shows, the biggest streamer shows, the bunch of it stuff. And I think it probably, you know, who used to say, I think I can imagine it may be an extra point in your favor when you're being considered by, an Apple or Netflix or something for a big show, you know, they, as to say, they can have whoever they want,

so they want to make sure they're getting the best. So it's nice to feel like there's a stamp of approval from my peers. Yeah, yeah. Well, we've got a little bit over, but so we'll let you go. All right, I'll see you there. It's lovely to check. I look forward to listening to your show a bit more now. I appreciate it.

Thank you so much. All right. Take it easy. Bye. All right. production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can go to frame and refpod.com and follow the link to buy me a coffee. It's always appreciated. And as always, thanks for listening.

Thank you.