Frame & Reference Podcast - 126: "American Fiction" DP Cristina Dunlap

Episode Date: January 25, 2024

Today we've got the wonderful Cristina Dunlap on the program to talk about her work on American Fiction! Cristina's previous work includes music videos for Lizzo (Juice!), Brandi Carlile, Coldplay, and Saweetie, as well as a host of fantastic commercials and short films which you can find on her website. Enjoy! Visit ⁠⁠⁠www.frameandrefpod.com⁠⁠⁠ for everything F&R You can directly support Frame & Reference by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠Buying Me a Coffee⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ Frame & Reference is supported by Filmtools and ProVideo Coalition. Filmtools is the West Coast's leading supplier of film equipment. From cameras and lights to grip and expendables, Filmtools has you covered for all your film gear needs. Check out ⁠⁠Filmtools.com⁠⁠ for more. ProVideo Coalition is a top news and reviews site focusing on all things production and post. Check out ⁠⁠ProVideoCoalition.com⁠⁠ for the latest news coming out of the industry.

Hello, and welcome to this, another episode of Frame and Reference. I'm your host, Kenny McMillan, and you're listening to Episode 126 with Christina Dunlund, the DP of American fiction. Enjoy. I will say you're the, I think, you know, most DPs have a Instagram or whatever. I think you're the first DEP I have found your Tumblr. I'm a Tumblr. You do.

I forgot about that. That thing is still active. Really? Yeah, but so far. I haven't posted anything on it in like 2016. It's probably 2015, yeah, okay. well luckily there's no weird furry stuff on it uh it's all just boom photography but uh i did want to know like do you still do film a talk i was actually on the team i saw it was mostly 50d i was on the team

that uh beta tested the medium format 800 t for sinistil oh wow how is that it's all right i mean i think all that all the sinicil stuff i think people mostly just want for the halation because otherwise it's not like the best film in the world especially if, I mean, it's certainly, I liked it, but I don't, it's lost its allure to me over the ears. Yeah, me too. I brought it for the eclipse because I went to Nashville to see the eclipse and I thought it would be cool in that sort of lighting just to see it change and not have to, you know. But it was, yeah, it turned up cool, but it's definitely not your everyday film. But yeah, I still do a lot of film photography.

That's kind of what I started doing. And so I always have a camera with me. So the big question then is, do you use a modern film DSLR? Or do you use the old busted ones that everyone fetishizes? Because that's actually what I use. Yeah, I have some old Nikon's that I found in my garage when I was 50s. that I still use to this day. And then I have a little Minolta point in shoot

that you can change the aperture on that it's this big. It looks like a spy camera. And I bring that on all my sets with me now. So it's just, you know, it's got a built-in flash and you can change the aperture. And it's just fun to have that for like behind the scenes or vacations or I don't love all my big cameras around as much as I used to.

because I found I just wasn't taking as many photos because I'm like, oh, do I want to bring it with me? It weighs nine pounds to carry it the whole day and is it going to get stolen? So I wish I should get back into the practice of that because I do love it. My first film camera was a RZ67. Oh, nice.

And I would try like street photography with no fucking chance, dude. It was brutal. But then I got my uncle's F2. And the advantage to getting those old Nikon's is you get all that Nycour glass for free. And then you can get that today. Yeah. That's what I've got that old F2. And I just, I mean, that lens on it.

The 501-2 on there is incredible. I had to get a new, luckily they're like word hasn't got out that they're better than the FDs. People can fight me on that. But on eBay, like, there's still Japanese sellers who have any of the NICOR AI AIS lens for a line for like $200. So there was a ton of dust in my 50 because it just got beat up. And then I looked up like all the various versions of it. And I got a slightly nicer one pristine. And so now my whole NICOR kit is complete.

And I bust that out for when I need stuff to look ever so slightly fancy. in my cinematography Did you have it rehoused or anything Or you just need an adapter with it? Yeah, because it's just like a little Shim almost that you put on the back of it But no, my friend who owns Zero Optic, he like was one of the first people

Who I think he was one of the first people To rehouse the NICOR So I'm like trying to save up But especially after the pandemic in the, and the, not protest, the strikes, don't have extra money for rehousing. Yeah, yeah, I'm with you there. So what made you go from film photography to cinematography? I guess, I didn't, I grew up in Los Angeles, and at 16, I started telling people I was a photographer, and I started, I met a director at Venice.

beach and I said I was a film photographer and he invited me to one of his music video sets to to take pictures of the band. I mean, this was, you know, in 2004 maybe. And I showed up in the band with Death Cab for Cutie, which was a huge deal. And I was like, oh, this is a real job. So I took all these deals of the band and I, we shot on slide film in high school so that They could critique it in class, and I delivered all the images on slide film because that was what I had. And the label was not so happy about that. But they ended up, you know, buying some of the photos. And on that set, I saw what a cinematographer was.

I don't think I really knew that was a job that existed. And I saw the camera they were using and they were on the dolly and they were moving everything around. that was just, it seemed like, you know, still photography on steroids, and I fell in love with it in that moment. It's like I have to do whatever this job is. Well, and I imagine too in 2004, like nowadays, if you were to shoot slide film for a band, they'd be stoked with all the like, the more screwed up it is, the better. And that, you know, for the like, I, we asked for photos. Yeah, exactly. I, that was. kind of, I think, you know, I met some different producers on that set that I'm still

friends with to this day. And I was coming to set a lot and taking stills for them. And one day they asked me to pick up the director some cigarettes on the way. And I was like, I can't really buy a cigarette. I'm not old enough. And then it was, you know, they figured out how there was, and they let me PA on set, and I worked, you know, with them for years through college, doing kind of any position on set they would let me do and still taking dills and learning, you know, cinematography from behind the scenes. Yeah. The, uh, was that pipeline what brought you to like all the way up to, you know, Lizzo and Coldplay and stuff like that? Or did you work your way towards those types of music videos in a, in a different, uh, track?

I guess, friendship track. I mean, this same director that I worked with, it was maybe a few years into working with them that he got a music video for $5,000. And no one wanted to shoot it because he was spending the entire budget on lighting somebody on fire. It was just a guy shredding guitar in a garage on fire

at super high speed. I think it was the Diablo camera back then that we used. And I was like, I'll get all the favors I can and I'll do it for free. And so we filmed this music video on my 5D and the Diablo and spent all the money on special effects. And that was kind of my first big break. And then I put that in a reel and it looked fancy. And I shot a lot of second unit for directors that got to know me through this.

I worked for this incredible producer who would, you know, let me shoot behind the scenes while being her production manager. So anytime I could get my hands on a camera, I would. And, you know, sometimes we'd be doing a commercial and she's like, we're not going to make the day, take my production manager and have her shoot B camera. And so I got experience that way. And I worked as an editor. I worked as an art department coordinator. I worked in any position people would let me do. I ran cables.

I did try an AC, but I'm not organized. And I think it wasn't, you know, I realize it's a very separate job. But I did operate a lot. And I seconded. But that makes you a better. I know, I know like a lot of people will suggest that, you know, you should focus on doing one thing like off rip. Like, because, you know, you run into the problem. of you go to someone's Instagram page and it'll say like director, cinematographer, editor, producer,

and you're like, I'm not hiring you for shit. But doing all those jobs, I feel like probably makes you a better DP, right? Because like now you know what you can ask of people, you know, when, you know, you can push people a little more, you know, when to back off, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely. I think I learned a lot as a production manager about the cost of things and, you know, what's important and what's not. I would see everyone's orders. So I would kind of go through them and I would pay attention to what got used

and what did it. And I would speak to all the gaffers and grips and I would write down the lighting setups. And you know, I always saw the equipment order. So I got all the information for free, which was nice. But yeah, editing, I think, had the biggest impact, definitely, in how I shoot.

Well, and then nowadays, I mean, I've said this a bunch of this podcast, but coloring now, if you can get a good beat on coloring and even, you know, if you're a D.P. And you can make your own luts and have them be robust, you know, not just whip something. I'm sure that's incredibly helpful. Yeah, that's one thing I wish I had more experience. And but, you know, I've been lucky to work with incredible colorists that I trust far more than myself. So I haven't really. I colored me. my own stills for years, though I had some idea, but I didn't do too much motion coloring. These days, I kind of, whenever I take photos, I wish I could, like, just put them in resolve because, like, now my brain only does note. It doesn't do, like, lightroom. Yeah. I have to, like, or, like, capture one. That's a lot of, like, oh, where, where does, which, you're just looking at, like, drop down, then he's like, I don't know where, I don't know where window is. but oh that's what I was going to say um if you haven't heard this podcast before it goes all over the place um I do not have a set script um but you had mentioned like oh doing everything very helpful very good film school doing everything but you also went to USC right yes I went to um Santa Monica Community College first for two years to save some money and I also probably would never have gone it

U.S.C. straight out. But, you know, I wanted to work in film. I didn't really have ambition. I wanted to do photography. So I. Well, in Santa Monica is close to Venice where you get the jobs apparently. Exactly. So I just went to, you know, community college two days a week and I worked the rest of the time. And then I was able to transfer to USC eventually. And I went there for two years and graduated from there. Yeah. I've interviewed a bunch of people who went to USC, obviously a bunch of people went to AFI, which was the dark horse I wasn't experienced. Like all the AFI people end up, you know, might as well be president. It's like, yeah. Yeah. But what did, what did, because you're, I guess the perfect person asked is because there's always like,

especially younger people who listen to the podcast kind of all seem to have the same question, which is like film school versus not film school. But you've, got the perfect background where you were just doing it, so to speak, and went to film school. What were kind of the positives and negatives of both? There's so many. I list all of them. I wanted to go to the USC more than, it was just sort of like a benchmark for me. It's like if I can accomplish this, then my life will go in a certain direction, which is never

true, but that was how I felt at, you know, 18. So, um, getting it. And I didn't even think about going until I had a friend going there and I went and sat in on one of their classes. And I just, I, I realized what a cool opportunity it was. And, um, there were some incredible classes, like, you know, sound design and things I never would have learned if I hadn't gone. But to be honest, I transferred the year that George Lucas donated $300 million under the condition they got rid of

all their film stuff. So we shot one project on film on 16 millimeter and then the next year all the film cameras were gone. All of the film editing bays were gone and he wanted everything to be done on

Sony because that's what he felt the future was. So we learned on the Sony X1 and by the time I was out of college it was already obsolete so in terms of cinematography I don't I felt I've learned way more on set

and in terms of film theory and other like trades I might not have learned it was a lot but I did have a lot of friends at AFI and I worked on their their shorts and I would say if you know

you want to be a cinematographer that you're definitely going to get more out of being at a place like AFI that you can pick what you want to do because at USCU you learn everything which is great

and you know it's just a different approach and you're in college you know yes you're in college that is yeah I love the

I almost went into primate biology after a class because I was so interested in you know you just you yeah for film school not so much if you want to learn primate biology definitely recommend it yeah I mean the I feel like it that's the question that doesn't get asked to should I go to college period and obviously like loans and stuff are a big issue or whatever whatever so I don't want to minimize that but if you can afford it and it is reasonable for you I think going to college having the college

experiences is pretty valuable just turning you into someone who's especially these days where we all tend to be terminally online uh you know socializes you a little bit you get to experience i i uh took a bunch of classes in in um um not well i took forensic anthropology which was almost private science very cool but uh habitable worlds exoplanets i did a bunch of like uh NASA stuff basically for like two years um that is so cool because ASU had a hook up there but wow um the fix this curtain oh yeah you go for it um but yeah i yeah i applied to SC as well but did not get in because i was a dummy uh don't be a dummy kids uh um what was i going to say about the no completely ran i ran out of uh juice there ha ha cheese there

is oh um i was looking you know i saw i watched the the film last night and uh thoroughly enjoyed it um all right whatever thank you continue there uh luckily i i hounded the amazon first screener last second because i didn't watch it at the right time but um it was the only to give you guys a bunch of credit it we went and saw um uh uh the holdovers and so of course you you go to the holder is great and uh there was 45 minutes of trailers which i enjoy watching trailers you know not like i don't seek them out but when you're in the theater i like it but there are too too many we're getting too many now and uh yours was the only film that me and my girlfriend immediately looked at each other and went oh actually that looks pretty good

because everything there was one called like night swim which you know no hate on whoever made that but we were just like what huh it was like every other film was just like oh okay And then yours came out and we're like, no, actually, let's go watch that. And then, of course, I get to watch it in my own house. Well, I'm glad you got to see it. Yeah. What you'd said, I saw in a different interview you did that it was based off a book. Yeah, which is funny.

It's based off a book called Erasure by Percival Everett. And you guys all apparently really dug it and ended up the whole crew you said was basically ended up reading it. Yeah, I mean, I think the script that Cord wrote, anyone who read it was just blown away by it. And they wanted to read the source material. So everyone was asking, oh, you know, I'm going to read the book or can I read the book? And so it was kind of, you know, something I'd never experienced before where everyone on the crew goes back and wants to read the source material. and we're all as like having our own book club. Is it a pretty bit?

Like, how long is it? It's a great question. I don't know, maybe around 300 pages. I really, I just made that up. It's a normal size book. I don't know that it's 300 pages. Gotcha. Well, the only reason I ask,

because some people are like daunted by long. Yes. The other thing that amazed me, though, is, and this is kind of what I wanted to get into with the cinematography at all, Is you guys only shot it in like less than a month? Yep, yeah, 26 days. And then we had one pickup day in L.A.

Sure. So what were you doing? Because the film has this great, because ostensibly it is kind of, I wouldn't call it a rom-com, but it's a familial somewhat romantic. You know, there's a bit of a love interest in there. But coupled with the side plot of kind of taking down

the establishment and but it does have this very even yet very cinematic and i hate that phrase i'm sorry uh lighting to it that i really thought was pretty legit and i was wondering how a how you were moving so quickly and achieving that look um and was that look as simple as it kind of seems or was it deceptively difficult to make it look kind of unlit almost um Um, it was, it was pretty difficult, to be honest, um, especially at the scenes in the beach house, you know, I'm honored that people think that, that mostly natural, but when we were location scouting, we were looking all over for the right house and everyone fell in love with the house. We ended up shooting in, except for me, that had dark wood interior. years. Right. That's every DP's dream, though. Yeah. A huge point of the plot was seeing the ocean through the windows and having that

water theme. And so I knew we were going to need to hold them. And I mean, often we were using every light on the truck blasting through those windows to get exposure in there. Because I met it out the window and it was, you know, 64 plus. And then inside was a point. eight most days so and and then you know they were in I had a joke with the costume designer because you know there was a funeral or I guess I shouldn't get that way there's a scene in this is this podcast going to come out like in a month or two so I think you'll be all right okay we're technically in the break okay perfect well two of the actors came to set wearing white button up shirts and I said something

like oh great the white shirt surprise and then every day he would text me no white shirt surprise today would send me photos of what they were wearing because we had so many lights blasting into the room they were just glowing at that point no one hit you with the the tea trick from back in the day I mean you didn't want everybody yellow yeah exactly yeah the how much light Because I noticed a lot of, like, pretty not obvious, but DP brain can see it. Toppy light, were you just like trussing up like a bunch of panels or like, what was that looking like? And how are you maintaining that kind of like nice contrast without looking too washy? Yeah, we definitely had fools in that way.

Part of making our coverage was orchestrating these betty cam moves with my operator, Xavier Thompson who's great and you know we had such a big cast and I didn't want to shoot standard coverage I really wanted the camera to be moving and slowing through everybody and I knew that people were going to riff off of each other because it is a satire so there's definitely comedic moments but I didn't want to shoot it like a comedy where you're just in a wide and you see everything so I really tried to watch the rehearsals and then we'd have an idea of what we're going to do, but we would tailor it to what ended up coming out in the scene so that the camera was always flowing and moving through people and panning to reveal. Having that sort of flow was

really important to us, that it sort of felt almost musical moving through everybody, because there's such a rhythm in the editing, in the acting, and tonally, it's such a all over the place movie that I really wanted there to be some consistency until the end where I really tried to shoot genre specific. That we won't ruin, just in case. But yeah, the, I also think, too, the soundtrack really glues everything together in a really nice way. It was a beautiful little kind of like very subtle soundtrack. Yeah, that's Laura Cartman. She did an incredible job. And So like she said in an interview that I loved with everyone was playing the same theme or had an instrument, but they were never at the same time because the family was never cohesive.

And I think you really feel it without knowing it. Yeah. Was everything one camera? We had some two camera days, but it was predominantly single camera. Gotcha. And so what was the key to, I know I kind of half asked this already, but what was the key to moving quickly? Was everything just kind of pre-lit and stayed there? Or do you have kind of a methodology that allows you to set things up and break things down in a way that's expedient? I mean, my crew was just incredible. They worked really hard. But yes, sorry, I didn't answer your question before. We would, like, especially in the family home, we had sort of rigged. different things into the ceiling and he would dim them up and down as we moved from room to room and we really just tried to dial it in with the choreography of the scene and it was yeah so there were

a lot of topy moments in those spaces and it helped that we were shooting in the two three five aspect ratio right so that was um when we were scouting i kind of used artemus and our viewfinder to look at different aspect ratios and take stills and then chord the director and I would go through and sort of just see what felt right and so much of the film was I wanted Monk to feel isolated and very alone because he's pushing everyone aware and he's really you know I believe one of the characters calls him

unknowable so I wanted you to feel that in the cinematography so it's often on him and then panning to reveal something else happening over here that's, you know, coming into the throw some chaos into his life. Right. He's very, I love Jeffrey Wright so much because that was also a huge Westworld fan. So like, anytime he pops up, I'm like, yeah, I want to see it now. He's an incredible actor.

One of my favorite scenes was when he goes to meet Wiley and he decides he's going to become dag and I knew I just wanted to give him as much of the length of a room as possible to make it to the table because I just knew he was going to do something brilliant. Oh yeah, because he enters like way on the side, right? Yeah, I mean, that was just something I picked in the space. I was like, he needs to walk across this whole room before he makes it to the table. So, yeah, we started with a, it was one of our like long zoom shots that was. fun to do you know something had occurred to me uh again jumping around a bit but one not necessarily

the main theme but certainly one of the larger themes of the of the film is uh the idea of an artist not being appreciated for their work and then having to quote unquote debase themselves to make a living and i feel like uh a lot of filmmakers especially younger film makers probably do feel that way where they want to work in the film industry. They want to make, again, heavy air quotes, important movies. And then they're offered shitty music videos or maybe they don't want to do commercial, which suggests in everyone listening. Commercial are great. That's how you're going to pay your bills. But, you know, and they don't feel important. Have you ever felt that way? And, you know, how did you wrestle with potentially those

feelings. Absolutely. I mean, I started young and it's taking me 20 years to get where I am now. So I've taken all kinds of jobs over the years and things that I... Some for free. But some for free, a lot, a lot for free. And, you know, I always tried to not make commercials for like pharmaceutical companies that I felt were selling things that harmed people or, you know, I had my things I didn't want to do, but, you know, for a first feature, you just, you kind of got to take whatever anyone will let you shoot. That's how, you know, it works for almost everybody, I think. And then as I had a few under my belt, I always went for story above all else and making sure it was a message I wanted to put into the world.

It was something I could stand behind. And this script was sent to me by a colleague of the director chord. And I read it and I just, it was one of the best scripts I've ever read in my life. And I knew he was interviewing a lot of DPs and some with, you know, credits that were a lot more impressive than what I had done. and I wasn't sure I was going to get it, but I think that I was so passionate about the script came through. So I think if you're passionate about what you're making, people can feel that and whether you're thinking it or not.

Yeah, whether you're going to phone it in or whether it matters to you. Actually, that's a good question is, what was that first meeting like with court since you guys didn't know each other initially? or for a series of meetings, I should say, done that like, what was it like looked at him first? Yeah, no, so his colleague, and she had assisted another director that I had worked for, and I actually met her on set of a music video, and she wasn't working with that person where she's now working for cord, and she emailed me, you know, a few years later out of the blue. Lou and said, hey, I'm working with Cord, and he's looking for a DP, and I thought of you

and that you guys would get along if you want to meet him. So she actually set up a lunch for us, and I met him for lunch, and we talked about the script, and we just got along, and I, you know, I had a lot of ideas, and he just, you know, liked what I had to say, I guess. Seems to have worked out. Yeah, it did work out. Because that is the one thing, too, because I did hear you say that in a different interview that you had a ton of ideas that he seemed to jail with. I was talking to Bob Richardson a couple weeks ago, and he was saying, was it him?

I think it was him who was saying that he went up to like Scorsese for like the first thing they did and he had like this whole book of ideas that he had. And it was like their first meeting and he was like, this is great. I'm so glad you made this. I'm never going to fucking look at this thing. it's like oh okay so I don't have the job got it bye bye and then you know obviously you did but um yeah it's you got to I guess you got to feel out your director a bit yes yeah I did hear that interview it's a great oh I guess it did just come in yeah they all kind of blur it again yeah you do you have to feel

it out I've worked with directors that are you know it's kind of hard in that initial interview because you want to say enough to show that you have a vision but you don't want to overwhelm them or say the wrong thing. So I always try, you know, I make a bookbook full of ideas and I try to talk through it and gauge what they're going to respond to. I mean, not that I would change my ideas, but it is in collaboration. You can't come set in your ways and not willing to hear what they have to say.

But, you know, it was Cord's first directing experience. So he was really open to things. Wait, really? Yeah. Oh, good job, but. Yeah. I mean, he's a green writer since he's been on sets. And he won an Emmy for his writing before.

Yeah, so he's, you know, he's very talented. But he was very open to collaborate. visually and sort of you know learning what we like together I did I just now I remembered the the two things I forgot asked was what was the jumping way back what was the but speaking of the look what was the lighting package and the the lens because were you guys shooting anamorphic or were you just cropping for that format I shot on the tribe seven black wings and I cropped for yeah very nice I cropped for anamorphic because, I mean, one, we were shooting LF and definitely couldn't have afforded

anamorphic lenses had I wanted them, which I did it because I feel like anamorphic is just so you're watching a movie. And I wanted it to feel a little more approachable and for people to forget and lose themselves in the story and it felt that the vehicle was just going to work better for that. But, you know, all of the locations and close focus, that definitely looked better on the spiritual as well. And then the locations, you know, we were, there's so many people in any given scene and I didn't want to be looking at the ceiling all the time. And I felt it helped to isolate Monk and helped us to get. that interesting choreography that we were looking for, you know, the main characters named

Thelonius Monk, so we wanted there to be this jazziness to the camera and flowing and movement and, you know, you think you're going this way and then suddenly you turn and you're looking over there the way the music changes in that way. So that was sort of our thought behind that. But yeah, spherical definitely worked. So the 235 really was more of a almost a text. technical consideration than a, I guess it does isolate actors because you have to spread them out a little bit more. But was it more technical than artistic or was it kind of just like it all seemed to work? I think it was more artistic than technical and then technically gave us the, yeah, no, because, you know, we had already chosen the lensing and before we started lighting. So it just gave us more. room and to hide lights, but it was really about, yeah, being able to stage people and interesting compositions and being able to flow through and not have to be super wide all the

time. I didn't want to play it like a comedy where you're always really wide. And that allowed me to include more people in the frame and be closer. Yeah, I mean, you do have some really beautiful just kind of photographic, I guess, you know, composition. Like there's one where he's standing on this like a piece of concrete looking over at the ocean that i just i just remember going like damn that's that's lined up perfectly like you know the part of your brain that scratch it's good at you know like that's a good one i like that one but oh yeah but to the point of the lighting and having to beat out the the sun stuff were you did you were you not able to like and the windows or you you primarily wanted the light from outside

yeah i mean that the the roof was almost touching their heads already there was nowhere to for light to come in except from outside and so we you know and d the window that the camera was looking but that only buys you a couple stuff so we couldn't get much out of it and it starts to look weird once you've quadrupled the end yeah and even one bubble is like yeah yeah but we had net and d all of it just wasn't Wasn't enough. Yeah. Was there anything that you learned while shooting this that you're putting into your toolkit going forward?

Well, I got to play around a lot more with the CRLS system. I've always liked it and I've gotten to use it a bit. But my gaffer really embraced it. And we used them a lot. and I loved what they did. Yeah, those things are so sick. Yeah, there was this scene that I was talking about earlier where a monk goes to meet Wiley in the restaurant

and, you know, we didn't own the street. We couldn't put things in the sidewalk and it was this huge restaurant and I really wanted a dramatic light coming through. And so my gaffer rigged up CRLS above the window on, I don't want to say C stands and make him bad, but it like, you know, it was, I think even a combo stand was taking up too much space. It was something, but we rigged them up and bounce line into them and it was just, it was exactly what I wanted and, you know, with taking up a minimal amount of space. Yeah. Talk to me about the, uh, the color grade on it because I think, I imagine you guys had to lean into the grade a little bit just to kind of,

lower that contrast down because like I said it's a very even looking feel it doesn't look flat but but you know there's great color separation on top of holding highlights really well and really being able to see in the shadows and in a nice way while still maintaining a good contrast thanks yeah um Phil Beckner the colorist and I I heard in one of your podcast you asked if um I think it was Larkin was like Steve Yedlin about the color grade so I actually spoke with Steve about because I had never worked with him

and he went into great detail about building luts that was over my head. So I knew that Bill was going to be able to do whatever I threw at him after that conversation. So yeah, we built a lot together that I used on set and then my DIT Maddie, she was able to dial it in each day depending on what location we were in to work for us and then we didn't change it dramatically in the color grade we just you know did have to dial out some contrast in time definitely right

power windows yeah we didn't have so many power windows but the hardest thing was Jeffrey's glasses and yeah damn that's always the worst too and and what's funny is is people's eyeball. I'm sure you do this. Like anytime there's a close-up, you're just staring at their eyeballs to see where the lights are. Yep.

But glasses, the second you see it on that, you're like, no, no, no, that's got to stop. Yeah, it's the magic trick is exposed. Yeah,

pretty quick. Wait, so were you having to go in VFX those out or were you able to do that in the grade? I mean, he did some stuff in the grade just to like reduce highlights.

But yeah, there was some VFX in there for sure. Was there any other VFX? Besides, towards the end there, during the award ceremony? Oh, that was real. No, there was, I don't think there were many other VFX, just, you know, certain comps and bones and screams and things like that. But, yeah, that was about it.

You know the reason I ask is I feel like it's important to highlight because everyone goes like, I hate movies with VFX and I'm like these days most movies have VFX you just don't like Transformers yeah fine but gotta give VFX people their flowers when they deserve them yeah so what was did you have references for um like the way you wanted it to look that you came in that look book you made or I should duh you had reference if you had a lookbook what I guess what were they I mean our references were all over the place um you know know, Cord brought me a gif that is a basketball player.

Yeah, David Robinson. Oh, I mean, it's like a, I don't know that it's famous, but it was like a gif on Twitter that made it around many years ago. And he's sitting in the audience and he's watching and the cameraman is getting his reaction. This is totally squared up shot on him. And just this white woman stands up perfectly blocks him. And they're wearing the same color shirt, and he said, I feel like this is a metaphor for our film.

And that was one of the first things he showed me. So I had that in the back of my mind. And we ended up recreating that gift in the film in a scene that, you know, felt really appropriate. The one with Issa? Yes, yeah. Because the... Bunks hearing her book and it's sort of everything he's up against. and he is appalled, and then this white woman stands up and blocks him and, yeah, massive applause.

Yeah, the other one that I wrote, the joke that I, I don't know why this one stuck with the most was when they're doing their little voting thing. And she walks away from the whiteboard and goes like, I think it's just important, because you did a great job for me this up. I think it's just important that we listen to black voices. And there's the three of them on one side of the table and the two of them on the other. And it's just that nice wide. And I was like, yeah, that's good. That's good stuff. Thank you.

That was a good visual gag, I suppose. Yeah, but aside from the GIF, I mean, it was all over the place. There were so many films that we referenced, and, you know, especially in the end when we went to different genres, there's a shot at the end of Silver Linnings playbook that inspired me for one of the scenes at the end of the film. And there was, you know, definitely some movies that were spherical, animorphic, or spherical with an animorphic crop that inspired me. Any of fincher's stuff?

Yeah, and I love the skin tones and the last black man in San Francisco. That was something I looked at a lot. It was, you know, our film definitely has some surreal element to, it and I felt that that was a pretty grounded film with surreal element. So while I didn't take anything from it too literally, it was sort of an inspiration in different ways. I did. I did. I literally have just even one in my notes, one line that just says skin tones. And then I kept repeating it. There's something magnetic about the skin tones in this film that like, I don't know what it is. It's like the fact that all the, the, the,

The highlights, the whites, like t-shirts and stuff are clean. The shadows are clean. And then the skin tones are like not overly saturated, but they're dense. Like all the colors are dense, but everything's very clean. And I was just, it's hard to look away from. Thank you. There's, oh my gosh, this is so bad. There is a, of course, the name is escaping my,

but there's a photographer that my friend Moses, Sumney introduced me to when we did one of his music videos and the skin tones in her photography. It's just, it's so beautiful. And that was something that I referenced. I need to do you edit this? Yeah. I mean, no, but yeah, for this type of stuff. Yeah. I'll cut out gaps or people Googling stuff. Yeah. I mean, I have her book somewhere and I'm like, where did I put it? because I want to be able to say her name because she's so incredible. I'll sign it. This is actually the first time I'm ever going to intelligently write down when there should be a cut.

Well, thank you. There's only two other times have I put out a podcast where someone went, hey man, you said you were going to cut that. And I went, you're so right because I don't re-listen to it. You know, I just like chop it up and send it unless I remember or if it's at the end. usually I'll try to keep all the cutty stuff when we're signing off. I'll sign off and then I'll be like, also, tell me that story

you didn't want to tell anyone. Okay. Oh, did you find it? Oh, no, I'm going to look. It's right over here. Is that okay? Yeah, yeah, go for it. Anna Lawson. Oh, okay. I'll have to write that down, too. So were you doing anything as you were shooting to kind of get that look,

or was that all kind of more in the grade? It was both. I mean, we had a lot that we built in the beginning that we were working with. And then I tried to be contrast as best as possible. and there were a lot of bounces and separating people from the background specifically and trying to go a little broader with the lighting and then I love to use a polarizer

so I can dial in where the highlight is on someone's face. Maybe that was what it was because it doesn't look unnatural but it did like I said it was hard to look away my brain couldn't figure it out being you know I freelance color a little bit but yeah that so maybe it was was the polarizer on

quite a bit? Yeah, I always use it. Oh, wow, okay. Damn, I'm going to have to start playing with that myself then. Yeah, it's fun. You can shift the highlight around on someone's face. Do you have a polarizer that you recommend? Because I know the one that I have is shit and it has a terrible color cast to it. I mean, they do have a little bit of a color cast, you know, and it adds to a stop. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. But I just use a Tiffin rotopola. Oh, okay. That's good.

And it, yeah, I do dial out a little bit of the green and the lut just so that's not there. But, yeah, that's sort of my favorite. That's fascinating because I, I used, yeah, that's a conversation. We'll have to have that conversation over beer because I, got to think about that one for a little bit. Because I've used polarizes before, but I always got mad at them because they weren't doing they, I always thought they affected skin tones in a way that I didn't like, but if I just watched that whole movie and I did like it. So now I have to figure out what, what's, where's

the middle ground? I mean, if you're lighting in a specific way, um, where, you know, we would have broader sources. So the skin was picking up that reflection. and then you can dial where that is in the face with spinning the polarizer. So if you want to have something, I mean, it doesn't work perfectly every time. There's times I would pull it out, but that is something that I love to do for skin tone. Yeah, that's awesome. I did, coming from film photography and having at least one go with 16, did that kind of set the way that you expose images across the board or did you end up changing your approach because of digital?

The good question. The camera that I found in my garage, the light meter was broken on it. So I never knew what anything was and I just, you know, started with Sunny 16 and whittled it down from there and figured out what exposure worked on what film stocks. And I just, you know, it was years and years of experimentation. So I feel like I can look at a room and read pretty well what it's going to be like. And I'll check it with a light meter now and again. But I wouldn't say that it's changed going to digital. I just sort of can look at something and inherently have an idea of the, you know, F-stop difference between the subject and the wall or things like that. yeah i'm still i'm still a big meter guy the getting a color meter has really uh changed my life yeah being able to uh just like meter the sun and get the x y coordinates and put them in the

back of the light and then everything looks exactly the same is is that's what i tell everyone they need to do just don't buy a new camera buy a color meter they're about the same price yeah excuse me i i have gaff gaffers that use them but i don't personally own but that would be really fun to play around with just walk around and figuring out what things are coming in at when i tell you when i first got it i was able to get like a deal on it too so i was already very excited i metered everything i like outside shade not quite the shade direct sunlight direct sunlight two hours later this light bulb that i wrote an entire article on pro video coalition just metering household bulbs so i have like a whole spreadsheet of just like uh you know

GE Phillips You have to send this to me But now you can't buy real light bulbs anymore It's upsetting I know But But wrote that down So they were all

I only metered LED bulbs Except for the only real bulbs You can still buy if you go to like smart and final They have like oven bulbs and utility bulbs Where they still have to be tungsten So you still can get them But you can't get them above like I think 40 watts is probably

the strongest one but I found that the GE sun-filled bulbs in tungsten or daylight are the most accurate and also don't have the blue spike in them so it's a more natural

yeah if you ever need practical bulbs I highly recommend that GE should pay me for that I did I really I just literally this is how I know I Oh, that's what I wanted to talk about. The night exteriors. Oh, yeah.

I assume the night exteriors were not easy. On a beach where you're not near the city, you don't have any ambient light. And you've got to, because it looks incredibly natural, but I guess the real question, did you go balloon or condor? We went on door. It was a helium shortage. I sure didn't get any better. But to light the Harvard Club Where we shot that end scene

All of the walls are plastered at the top It's all a facade. So you can't rig anything to it We couldn't do any crossbar There was just the only option was helium balloon And it was like I mean everyone was just on the edge of the sea Like are we going to find this helium We were thinking of going to a party city

And like how many tanks will they sell us I mean we were desperately trying to find helium So that was out of the question for the beach. We went, yeah, with Condor. And there was very high winds that night. And we weren't sure if we were going to be able to fly it or have to pull it down. I mean, we were sitting there with the wind meter just watching. But we pulled it off.

What would have been plan B? Well, we had some, like, gem balls on a pole and just not going, quite as wide. And yeah, there was different options for plan B, but it's definitely tighter coverage. Yeah. Yeah, the Jimbo. Yeah. It's surprising how often, especially these days on digital, the key light is literally just like a Titan tube or a bulb on a stick kind of just by the camera. You'd think they'd teach us that in film school and they didn't. No. Oh, and something else incredible that I had never experienced is in Boston. And I don't know if it was just my gaffer, if this is common practice there, but our gaffer, Alec, had some friends who would,

they were arborists. So they climbed trees like 20, 30 feet high and were hanging gem balls for us up in the trees on nights we couldn't afford or couldn't bring in a condor. That's actually incredible. Yeah, I have some pictures from that that blew my mind. But he was like oh let's get someone to climb the tree and I that I mean it worked beautifully like the night exterior at the pool and in the yard when they're playing bocce ball that was all someone who climbed 20 feet up or further and hung us some gem balls yeah the yeah the whole like I said the whole film just looks I wouldn't be so bold to say naturally lit but it looks very like every word I'm going to use is going to sound reductive and I don't mean it to

be because it still looks incredibly filmic but then it just looks like it looks effortless let's say and thank you not a compliment are you working on anything right now or are you just like enjoying the award season yeah I actually um had a baby the week this film careered at Toronto. So I've been doing that and kind of, you know, the awards season events and then hopefully decide what's next in the new year. Yeah. Well, I look forward to seeing what you do because so far it's all been pretty good. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Yeah. I'll let you go there too because I got to somehow I double booked a podcast day. But please stay in touch and whenever you get the next thing going or you're sick of your baby.

Come on back and we can keep talking about it. I'll come any time. Sounds good. All right. Well, enjoy the rest of your day. Take care. Thanks so much. Nice speaking with you.

Frame and Reference is an Owlbot production. It's produced and edited by me, Kenny McMillan, and distributed by Pro Video Coalition. If you'd like to support the podcast directly, you can do so by going to frame and ref com and clicking on Buy Me a Coffee. It's always appreciated. and as always, thanks for listening.